Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement? (marginally OT, sanity check)

[Samuel J Albury III]

Amusing

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement? (marginally OT, sanity check)

[McClure, Don]

I'll select Joe's posting as a reply point—knowing that others have added more 
information.

The University of North Texas System investigated SNOW as a Remedy 
replacement—by the way, our current System administration is in an ABR mode 
(yes, Anybody But Remedy).

SNOW Pluses—a more complete package for Incident, Change, Knowledge, 
notification management in many modes, SRM, [primitive] SLM, discovery, CMDB, 
very versatile reporting on almost any data in the system—and a built-in 
console for some smartphone devices. No add-ons, no options needed, all one 
complete price.  Such may also be a disadvantage, as SNOW requires a fixed 
(named-user) license for several activities where BMC/ITSM does not do so.

SNOW Minuses—significant configuration work to ensure that established workflow 
actually matches processes already in place; very skeletal Customer Portal 
(building items is easy—replicating them to the non-login portal is difficult 
enough that their consultant failed to do it at a users' group demo!!), clumsy 
publication/updating of Knowledge Articles; attractive but marginally 
functional dashboards.

Summary—at UNT, SNOW was only seen as a complete, hosted, subscription, 
no-infrastructure replacement for BMC ITSM—not just a frontend replacement for 
SRM.


Then, the price:  quote to us for an annual subscription was 4.0 times our 
current maintenance to BMC for ITSM, ADDM, Knowledge.  I will gladly share 
further details as to our sizing, but comparison of sizing for proposed SNOW vs 
current BMC/ITSM is another very large discussion (will occupy lots of room if 
included here).

So, our budget folks balked on the $$$--and were sold on SNOW up until that 
point.  Further, the initial start-up contract quote was nearly 80% of our 
current BMC/ITSM support cost.  Of course, group making this decision is trying 
to be parent/supplier to the University, and said group is basically not 
accustomed to following any IT processes at all—and further in denial that most 
University groups are already well-entrenched in Incident processes, at least.  
Therefore, our budget folks have returned us to examining other product 
candidates—without senior administration having said anything about compelling 
non-process folks to actually USE the successor toolkit when selected.


I can definitely see why  was initially excited, and then 
returned to the BMC fold when they realized just how much configuration (no, 
not customization!!!) was required for their particular usage of SNOW.  We saw 
some very large Serv Mgmt delegations at two SNOW user group meeting, each 
representing rather smaller entities than our University.

Your mileage may vary…

Don W. McClure, P.E.
Call Tracking Administration
University of North Texas
dwmac @ unt . Edu

"Cost, schedule, features……choose two"



From: Joe D'Souza mailto:jdso...@shyle.net>>
Organization: Shyle Networks
Reply-To: "arslist@ARSLIST.ORG<mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG>" 
mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG>>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:08:21 -0500
To: "arslist@ARSLIST.ORG<mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG>" 
mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG>>
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

**

Like this person said – cost of the product itself. Sometimes a short term 
vision for short term gains can lead to long term losses. Then again it could 
be lack of funding itself. With the economy that is perhaps barely recovering, 
I would think that is more of a reason than a lack of vision of long term 
losses. They just take that chance of shooting themselves in the foot and then 
see how far you can run :).

Joe


From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Lisa Kemes
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 8:52 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG<mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG>
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

**
Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just 
curious.

Lisa Kemes
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury 
mailto:taufc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone
_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Dale Hurtt]

> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
> 
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
> if you'd like :)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone

Interesting rumor. Although I cannot say I disbelieve it – I have seen 
customers throw away $10M in Tivoli work, so getting one competitor's ITSM 
system to replace the module of another competitor's is certainly within the 
bounds of believability – it does seem likely to fail.

My background: I have a customer considering moving to ServiceNow (and many 
other products have been considered, and they are still on Remedy, so don't try 
to imply anything from this statement) for a number of reasons. I decided to 
understand what ServiceNow was truly offering, because their demo looked damned 
good. So, I went out and got my own development instance of ServiceNow will all 
the modules on it.

ServiceNow came up recently when what appeared to be a troll made a statement 
(then ran) about how much better SNOW was than BMC Remedy ITSM. Doug M. came 
online to refute the parts of what he said about BMC's product. One statement 
he made about the competitor was that its *application suite* was much less 
mature than Remedy's. He is absolutely correct. If you want to "do ITIL" with 
their ITSM product, you likely have a bit of coding to do. SNOW's philosophy is 
the "build up" from the base applications. Currently they are in a state much 
better than the old "Help Desk templates" (if you remember them), and probably 
even Help Desk 3.0 – but not much more. They can show you a bunch of bells and 
whistles, but when it comes to the richness of the relationships between 
modules, it is just not there.

Now that may be good for your customer. Maybe they are the types that like to 
kid themselves that they are doing "best practices" and "following ITIL" when 
in reality the inmates are running the asylum with management's blessing. (We 
have all been to that shop, 'eh?) A minimalist approach might be just the 
ticket. Better than taking a complex, rich app like Remedy's and cutting or 
turning off major chunks of it.

If your customer is not even close to standard – say a government entity :^) – 
and they have a lot of special requirements, it might be easier to build up 
from SNOW without all of that clutter you might not use. Who knows? But the 
initial pricing, which is what so many frustrated customers who are considering 
switching from whatever vendor they have, are considering. How little will it 
cost me to get out from under what I have now.

Under the covers SNOW is like Remedy ARS in many (general) respects. You put 
fields on forms and that creates the underlying database structure for you. You 
fill out forms and put in logic and it creates workflow for you. It has a fully 
graphical editor for some (but not all) workflow that allows admins to 
"develop". Neat stuff, but in the end, very similar to ARS.

So, would you bet on using Remedy as a front-end to, say one of CA's modules? I 
don't think so. For that reason alone, I think using SNOW to front-end SRM is 
lunacy. Doesn't mean someone isn't trying it though. From SNOW's perspective, 
it is a toehold to replace one part of a legacy system. It is just one step 
towards replacing all the rest, and they just might be willing to take a bet on 
that, if the customer is big enough.

Interesting idea though.

For all those out there curious about SNOW, you can get on their demo servers, 
for free, as a full-blown admin, and start coding away. (Don't expect to find 
it there the next day, however, as they re-image the machines most nights.) 
THAT will give you a real feel for how easy - or hard - it is to develop in 
SNOW.

When my customer first got serious about SNOW, I went to their classes in San 
Diego (at my own expense). I got excited about the product, purely from a 
developer's viewpoint. It is cool. But, implement a major customer in six 
months? Get serious!

Dale Hurtt
SPEC IT LLC

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

I meant that and similar products. JoinMe is another.. those kind make more
sense than twitter as they even give you capability of remote control. Skype
allows for remote control too.. Could be quite useful for a internal IT
helpdesk for remote staff..

 

Joe

 

  _  

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Jason Miller
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 4:48 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

 

** 

I just realized NetMeeting is a GoToMeeting product.  I was trying to figure
out who was still using MS Net Meeting :)

 

Jason

 

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Joe D'Souza  wrote:

NetMeeting 


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Jason Miller]

I just realized NetMeeting is a GoToMeeting product.  I was trying to
figure out who was still using MS Net Meeting :)

Jason


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Joe D'Souza  wrote:

> NetMeeting

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Jason Miller]

I think a use case is broadcast type notifications.  You setup a private
twitter where you have to approve the followers.  Then they can get instant
notifications on mobile, email, web page, etc.  Also it is mode
of communication that is not dependent on your network.  Your network can
be completely down and people can still receive a twitter message.  Granted
the Remedy integration probably doesn't help much if the network is down
unless you have a modem on your Remedy server (we did until about 4 years
ago).

Jason


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Longwing, LJ CTR MDA/IC <
lj.longwing@mda.mil> wrote:

> Joe,
> I used to be confused about Twitter as wellbut look at it as just
> another notification/reply loop.  You receive emails from Remedy,
> right?people want the ability to receive Text messages from
> RemedyTwitter is just another notification methodif people want
> their Remedy system to notify them on Twitter regarding the status of
> something going onsure, why not.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:
> arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 11:35 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> I don't get that twitter and RSS integration and the need for that either.
> I can understand the need for available OTB integrations to other mass
> communication media such as maybe Skype or NetMeeting.
>
> But Twitter? To tweet what exactly?
>
> "Oh I just logged into Remedy and am now at my home page, I got 14
> incidents assigned to me and I'm on my first cup of  kind of
> beverage>!! Yay!!"
>
> Nay...
>
> Point is what kind of a business use would twitter integrations really
> serve? Apart from everyone uses it these days and it would be nice to be
> able to communicate with users from there.. You could do it on cleaner
> tools like Skype or NetMeeting or good old email.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:
> arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:36 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working
> with Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he
> seemed to be pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not
> tried it any further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to
> me.  However, since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think
> highly of it, I don't think we can completely dismiss it.
>
> Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM
> apps should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real
> SSO where you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on
> your corporate network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should
> be streamlined even further instead of going back to adding even more tabs
> like
> 8.0 does (although to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the
> Categorization tab, my users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still
> think the best ITSM suite out there, but there needs to be a lot of
> movement forward and in some cases disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.
>  I'd much rather see BMC focus on continuing to clean up the interface
> before they add more features like Twitter integrations and stuff that
> isn't as important.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shawn Pierson
> Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow
> having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is
> taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side.
> I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
> you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the
> Answers
> Are, and have been for 20 years"
>
> Private and confidential as detailed here:
> http://www.energytransfer.com

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Jim Manara]

The reason multiple products succeed in the market place (Windows, MAC) or
(Android, iOS) is because they address a need for some number of users. 
Look at the history of Project Management or Report Writing software.

Having spent a number of years in the Software Industry, the worst thing
to base a decision on is the offered price of new software.  The companies
stock value is based on new sales and growth of customer base.  The
dollars received for these elements are secondary to the volume.  Hence
your favorite salesperson is ready focus on price and how they will beat
any competitive offer.

The true measure is the value your organization will receive from the
software.  There is a place for both Remedy and SNOW.  The key is knowing
where your organization realizes the most value.

Jim Manara
jim.man...@thecambiaregroup.com
480-273-0934

Growth is Change,
Change is Cambiare!

> Couple comments:
>
> 1. The cost of SNOW implementation and 5 years of "licenses" was still
> cheaper than our incomplete Remedy implementation (in our scenario)
>
> I can sell you a marble - that will cost less than SNOW implementation and
> 5 years licenses. That is sort of a misleading thing to consider.
> The REAL question is -- does your company
> -operate better
> -operate faster
> -positioned for flexibility
>
> Because - reality is -- a company is willing to pay more - for a solution
> that gives them
> -operate better
> -operate faster
> -positioned for flexibility
>  (so cost is a bad litmus test, unfortunately - just an easy litmus test)
>  *** We should come up with a way to measure improvement.
> (that could really end some debates) (Maybe nobody creates such a test -
> because nobody actually wants to know (hm))
>
> From what I hear from SNOW converts is that they are not
> -operating better
> -operating faster
> -positioned for flexibility
>
> They are just using a different tool - almost a big net 0.
> (which is a waste of time/money/attention)
>
> 2. SNOW is working with FEDRAMP to be an authorized cloud vendor for the
> US
> Federal Gov
> *** This is a good thing for SNOW
>
> 3. SNOW has worked in every browser type I have tried (I'm looking at you
> SRM 8)
> *** To me -- this is showstopper type of stuff (1 and 2 above -- these are
> debates) -- having people (customers) not be able to use your self-service
> unless they fall under your "See list of supported browsers" is quite
> limiting and is an unwise position to be in.
>
>
> *** I KNOW THIS IS PRO KINETIC STATEMENT ***
> The real benefit (low hanging fruit) for most Remedy customers right now
> is
> Self Service/Request Management…
> IMHO - the lowest hanging fruit - is to just hang an enhancement on to
> your
> existing solution (whether ITSM 7.6.x, 7,6,custom,???)
> This is the Kinetic approach -- install a module (Kinetic Request) -- and
> start configuring your Self Service…
> To me - it makes NO SENSE to upgrade your world to v8 just to get SRM8
> etc…
> (crazy)
>
> Just install Calendar -- start configuring your calendars -- no need to
> upgrade the whole shooting match.
>
> Just install Surveys -- start configuring your surveys -- no need to
> upgrade the whole shooting match.
> etc...
>
> The BMC ITSM approach of "swallow whole pill" is an unwise approach for a
> customer.
> You should only touch what needs touching :) (Isn't that a fundamental of
> good operations management???)
> Upgrading Incident,Change,CMDB, Asset, SLM, RKM, blah blah blah -- to get
> a
> nicer looking SRM - is [fill in blank]!!!
>
> (((I should probably say "You should only touch what needs touching"™ )))
> (Not sure if that character will make it through email programs (it was a
> T
> M (trademark))
>
> Wouldn't it seem like a better approach to be something like this:
>
> 1) Solid ARS
> 2) Solid ITSM base -- Incident,Chg, etc… (All modular)
> 3) Functional enhancements:
> Calendaring
> Surveying
> Purchasing
> Knowledge Mgmt
> Dashboards
> Costing
> Time Mgmt
> Proj Mgmt
> (the list goes on)
>
> Instead of getting a new (more solid) ITSM base over and over?
>
> Could you imagine the breadth of functionality that could be built if the
> base quit changing?
> (Oh - and BTW - the added functionality is "selectable" -- so you don't
> have to have it - if not relevant)
>
> Maybe I should design a new ITSM world.
> (Any takers???)
>
> We could build a consortium -- each member company would pay $10k/year --
> with unlimited usage…
>
> I bet we could get 50 companies to start pretty easily.  Then after V1 --
> we would get 200 companies to join...
>
>
>
> -John
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Sundberg*
> Kinetic Data, Inc.
> "Your Business. Your Process."
>
> *Save The Date! *Second Annual KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
> Feb. 25th - March 1st in Denver, CO. For more information click here -
> KEG
>
> 651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com
> www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com
>
> _

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

I recall bringing that up at the last RUG as being the stumbling block at
about over 50% of sites I worked at that would raise firewall alarms at even
something more acceptable like mail.yahoo.com or hotmail.com.

Tools like NetMeeting, WebEx, Skype etc. are not a issue at 50% of these
kind of sites that ban other communication sites. That brings about 70% of
sites that may accept those as opposed to twitter..

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:13 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

 > Joe D'Souza scribed:
 >
 > I get that. But I just do not see it as a professional tool to do that.

But it's worse than that: Twitter is banned by many corporate proxies so 
whether it's Remedy On Premises or Remedy On Demand, good luck in 
persuading the average corporate IT Compliance/Security team that an 
exception should be made for Twitter.


John

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Tauf Chowdhury]

James, I don't know the details. I'm gonna go find a forum or the SNOW
wiki and see if I can report back with something concrete.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2013, at 2:29 PM, "Rackley, James"  wrote:

> Are you saying that SNOW is separating it's Service Catalog from the rest of 
> its platform?
>
> I haven't spoken to my sales guy since December, but you would think he would 
> have mentioned it.
>
> What I do know is that you can point your SNOW implementation at Remedy.  
> That has been there the whole time.  However, you always receive the entire 
> SNOW platform no matter which piece(s) you choose to use.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 1:19 PM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> **
>
> Really? What's it called?
>
>
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:01 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
>
>
> Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit.
>
> For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is making 
> a push to get their foot in the door by offering their service catalog 
> functionality sitting in top of Remedy.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:
>
>**
>
>Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just 
> curious.
>
>
>
>Lisa Kemes
>
>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:
>
>All,
>A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
>SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
>where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
>fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
>is:
>1. Have you done it
>2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
>I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
>if you'd like :)
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ _ARSlist: 
> "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Rackley, James]

Are you saying that SNOW is separating it's Service Catalog from the rest of 
its platform?

I haven't spoken to my sales guy since December, but you would think he would 
have mentioned it.

What I do know is that you can point your SNOW implementation at Remedy.  That 
has been there the whole time.  However, you always receive the entire SNOW 
platform no matter which piece(s) you choose to use.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 1:19 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

** 

Really? What's it called?

 

Joe

 



From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:01 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

 

Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit. 

For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is making a 
push to get their foot in the door by offering their service catalog 
functionality sitting in top of Remedy. 



Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:

** 

Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  
Just curious.

 

Lisa Kemes

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  
wrote:

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone 

_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ _ARSlist: "Where 
the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Baker]

> Joe D'Souza scribed:
>
> I get that. But I just do not see it as a professional tool to do that.

But it's worse than that: Twitter is banned by many corporate proxies so 
whether it's Remedy On Premises or Remedy On Demand, good luck in 
persuading the average corporate IT Compliance/Security team that an 
exception should be made for Twitter.



John

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Pierson, Shawn]

I see some value in the Twitter integration specifically for companies that 
communicate publicly with their external customers and track their tickets in 
Remedy.  For example, if you were a cable TV provider, you could use Remedy to 
send out Tweets similar to the broadcast functionality to alert your users to 
an outage.  That way your users could proactively follow you on Twitter and be 
able to see that you had a problem that you were working on before they even 
logged in.  The same could apply to Change Management/Asset Management on 
alerting the public when you had a planned outage coming up in the near future.

That being said, while I can see some value in it, I think it was low hanging 
fruit for BMC and seemed good from a marketing standpoint.  It sounds much 
cooler to say that you integrated your product with Twitter than speeding up 
the time of a CMDB Reconciliation by 20%, for example.  Personally, I think the 
email integration enhancements (the RBE stuff) in 8.x is much more useful and 
compelling than the Twitter integration.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson
Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:35 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

I don't get that twitter and RSS integration and the need for that either. I 
can understand the need for available OTB integrations to other mass 
communication media such as maybe Skype or NetMeeting.

But Twitter? To tweet what exactly?

"Oh I just logged into Remedy and am now at my home page, I got 14 incidents 
assigned to me and I'm on my first cup of !! Yay!!"

Nay...

Point is what kind of a business use would twitter integrations really serve? 
Apart from everyone uses it these days and it would be nice to be able to 
communicate with users from there.. You could do it on cleaner tools like Skype 
or NetMeeting or good old email.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:36 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working with 
Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he seemed to be 
pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not tried it any 
further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to me.  However, 
since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think highly of it, I 
don't think we can completely dismiss it.

Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM apps 
should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real SSO where 
you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on your corporate 
network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should be streamlined even 
further instead of going back to adding even more tabs like
8.0 does (although to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the 
Categorization tab, my users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still think 
the best ITSM suite out there, but there needs to be a lot of movement forward 
and in some cases disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.  I'd much rather see 
BMC focus on continuing to clean up the interface before they add more features 
like Twitter integrations and stuff that isn't as important.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson
Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side.
I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers
Are, and have been for 20 years"

Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.energytransfer.com/mail_disclaimer.aspx .  If you cannot access
the link, please e-mail sender.


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

I get that. But I just do not see it as a professional tool to do that. I
can understand Skype or NetMeeting or iMessage or blackberry message center,
or even Whats App or silly messaging applications like that - which are not
news feeds literally the world can see.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Longwing, LJ CTR MDA/IC
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 1:40 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

Joe,
I used to be confused about Twitter as wellbut look at it as just
another notification/reply loop.  You receive emails from Remedy,
right?people want the ability to receive Text messages from
RemedyTwitter is just another notification methodif people want
their Remedy system to notify them on Twitter regarding the status of
something going onsure, why not.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 11:35 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

I don't get that twitter and RSS integration and the need for that either. I
can understand the need for available OTB integrations to other mass
communication media such as maybe Skype or NetMeeting.

But Twitter? To tweet what exactly?

"Oh I just logged into Remedy and am now at my home page, I got 14 incidents
assigned to me and I'm on my first cup of !! Yay!!"

Nay...

Point is what kind of a business use would twitter integrations really
serve? Apart from everyone uses it these days and it would be nice to be
able to communicate with users from there.. You could do it on cleaner tools
like Skype or NetMeeting or good old email.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:36 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working
with Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he
seemed to be pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not
tried it any further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to
me.  However, since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think
highly of it, I don't think we can completely dismiss it.

Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM apps
should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real SSO
where you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on your
corporate network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should be
streamlined even further instead of going back to adding even more tabs like
8.0 does (although to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the
Categorization tab, my users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still
think the best ITSM suite out there, but there needs to be a lot of movement
forward and in some cases disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.  I'd much
rather see BMC focus on continuing to clean up the interface before they add
more features like Twitter integrations and stuff that isn't as important.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson
Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side.
I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers
Are, and have been for 20 years"

Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.energytransfer.com/mail_disclaimer.aspx .  If you cannot access
the link, please e-mail sender.


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"


__

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Ken Pritchard]

Or maybe folks are opting for less functionality with these types of systems - 
less bells and whistles - just do whats needed to get the job done. 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe D'Souza 
  Newsgroups: public.remedy.arsystem.general
  To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG 
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 1:08 PM
  Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?


  ** 
   

  Like this person said - cost of the product itself. Sometimes a short term 
vision for short term gains can lead to long term losses. Then again it could 
be lack of funding itself. With the economy that is perhaps barely recovering, 
I would think that is more of a reason than a lack of vision of long term 
losses. They just take that chance of shooting themselves in the foot and then 
see how far you can run J.

   

  Joe

   


--

  From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Lisa Kemes
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 8:52 AM
  To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
  Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

   

  ** 

  Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just 
curious.

   

  Lisa Kemes

  On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

  All,
  A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
  SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
  where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
  fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
  is:
  1. Have you done it
  2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

  I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
  if you'd like :)

  Sent from my iPhone 

  _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Sundberg]

LJ,

Agreed - should be a 5 minute add-on install to get this functionality (for
any ARS version).

-John




On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Longwing, LJ CTR MDA/IC <
lj.longwing@mda.mil> wrote:

> Joe,
> I used to be confused about Twitter as wellbut look at it as just
> another notification/reply loop.  You receive emails from Remedy,
> right?people want the ability to receive Text messages from
> RemedyTwitter is just another notification methodif people want
> their Remedy system to notify them on Twitter regarding the status of
> something going onsure, why not.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:
> arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 11:35 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> I don't get that twitter and RSS integration and the need for that either.
> I can understand the need for available OTB integrations to other mass
> communication media such as maybe Skype or NetMeeting.
>
> But Twitter? To tweet what exactly?
>
> "Oh I just logged into Remedy and am now at my home page, I got 14
> incidents assigned to me and I'm on my first cup of  kind of
> beverage>!! Yay!!"
>
> Nay...
>
> Point is what kind of a business use would twitter integrations really
> serve? Apart from everyone uses it these days and it would be nice to be
> able to communicate with users from there.. You could do it on cleaner
> tools like Skype or NetMeeting or good old email.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:
> arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:36 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working
> with Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he
> seemed to be pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not
> tried it any further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to
> me.  However, since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think
> highly of it, I don't think we can completely dismiss it.
>
> Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM
> apps should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real
> SSO where you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on
> your corporate network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should
> be streamlined even further instead of going back to adding even more tabs
> like
> 8.0 does (although to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the
> Categorization tab, my users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still
> think the best ITSM suite out there, but there needs to be a lot of
> movement forward and in some cases disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.
>  I'd much rather see BMC focus on continuing to clean up the interface
> before they add more features like Twitter integrations and stuff that
> isn't as important.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shawn Pierson
> Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow
> having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is
> taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side.
> I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
> you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the
> Answers
> Are, and have been for 20 years"
>
> Private and confidential as detailed here:
> http://www.energytransfer.com/mail_disclaimer.aspx .  If you cannot access
> the link, please e-mail sender.
>
>
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>
>
> ___
> UN

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Sundberg]

(More Kinetic chewy goodness -- which BTW - you would be wise in seeing a
trend on my comments.

I try to be helpful - to encourage to think differently, and then say what
we have done already in that space - to get you "there" faster)




If all you do is cost containment -- you go bankrupt.

You HAVE TO invest.

There is a saying - if you are not growing - you are dying.

So - how are you growing your processes? -- or are they dying?

Simple growth:
Add Kinetic Calendar -- now people can see what is coming down the pipe or
not. Gives them the ability to make an informed business decision.
(You look good - as it is easy to implement - and they are better off)

Add Kinetic Survey -- now measure some changes - were they worth it? - were
they not? (build up a history of changes that were worth it (and proven)
and now you have a budget for some "real change".

Now with money for "real change"

Add Kinetic Request -- get promoted -- buy an island -- and swim with
dolphins. (And invite me to a party :)


-John


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Joe D'Souza  wrote:

> **
>
> But sometimes it’s good to differentiate between cost and investment. Not
> all changes can be classified as costs. If the money is spent right, it
> could well be an investment. And sure investments do not usually come in
> cheap. You got to weigh the returns. Its this lack of visibility of returns
> that differentiates leaders from managers. Managers can be mass produced in
> a business schools. Leaders belong to a different culture.
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>  --
>
> *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:
> arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] *On Behalf Of *patrick zandi
> *Sent:* Friday, January 11, 2013 8:59 AM
>
> *To:* arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
> 
>
>  ** **
>
> ** those people are called managers , and not leaders..  they are bean
> counters and not  leaders...
> they are narcissistic about making a name for themselves, rather than be
> content.. and make slow moves ...
>
> just because you have a degree, does not mean you are smart...
>
> Cecil Lawson: Brilliant man and his directions were smart..   wonder how
> he is doing these days..
>
> Change cost money Every time ! 
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:*
> ***
>
> ** 
>
> Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
> curious.
>
>  
>
> Lisa Kemes
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury 
> wrote:
>
> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
> if you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone 
>  _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
>



-- 

*John Sundberg*
Kinetic Data, Inc.
"Your Business. Your Process."

*Save The Date! *Second Annual KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
Feb. 25th - March 1st in Denver, CO. For more information click here -
KEG<http://www.kineticdata.com/Events/KEG.html>

651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com
www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Longwing, LJ CTR MDA/IC]

Joe,
I used to be confused about Twitter as wellbut look at it as just another 
notification/reply loop.  You receive emails from Remedy, right?people want 
the ability to receive Text messages from RemedyTwitter is just another 
notification methodif people want their Remedy system to notify them on 
Twitter regarding the status of something going onsure, why not.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 11:35 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

I don't get that twitter and RSS integration and the need for that either. I 
can understand the need for available OTB integrations to other mass 
communication media such as maybe Skype or NetMeeting.

But Twitter? To tweet what exactly?

"Oh I just logged into Remedy and am now at my home page, I got 14 incidents 
assigned to me and I'm on my first cup of !! Yay!!"

Nay...

Point is what kind of a business use would twitter integrations really serve? 
Apart from everyone uses it these days and it would be nice to be able to 
communicate with users from there.. You could do it on cleaner tools like Skype 
or NetMeeting or good old email.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:36 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working with 
Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he seemed to be 
pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not tried it any 
further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to me.  However, 
since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think highly of it, I 
don't think we can completely dismiss it.

Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM apps 
should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real SSO where 
you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on your corporate 
network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should be streamlined even 
further instead of going back to adding even more tabs like
8.0 does (although to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the 
Categorization tab, my users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still think 
the best ITSM suite out there, but there needs to be a lot of movement forward 
and in some cases disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.  I'd much rather see 
BMC focus on continuing to clean up the interface before they add more features 
like Twitter integrations and stuff that isn't as important.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson
Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side.
I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers
Are, and have been for 20 years"

Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.energytransfer.com/mail_disclaimer.aspx .  If you cannot access
the link, please e-mail sender.


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Sundberg]

Couple comments:

1. The cost of SNOW implementation and 5 years of "licenses" was still
cheaper than our incomplete Remedy implementation (in our scenario)

I can sell you a marble - that will cost less than SNOW implementation and
5 years licenses. That is sort of a misleading thing to consider.
The REAL question is -- does your company
-operate better
-operate faster
-positioned for flexibility

Because - reality is -- a company is willing to pay more - for a solution
that gives them
-operate better
-operate faster
-positioned for flexibility
 (so cost is a bad litmus test, unfortunately - just an easy litmus test)
 *** We should come up with a way to measure improvement.
(that could really end some debates) (Maybe nobody creates such a test -
because nobody actually wants to know (hm))

>From what I hear from SNOW converts is that they are not
-operating better
-operating faster
-positioned for flexibility

They are just using a different tool - almost a big net 0.
(which is a waste of time/money/attention)

2. SNOW is working with FEDRAMP to be an authorized cloud vendor for the US
Federal Gov
*** This is a good thing for SNOW

3. SNOW has worked in every browser type I have tried (I'm looking at you
SRM 8)
*** To me -- this is showstopper type of stuff (1 and 2 above -- these are
debates) -- having people (customers) not be able to use your self-service
unless they fall under your "See list of supported browsers" is quite
limiting and is an unwise position to be in.


*** I KNOW THIS IS PRO KINETIC STATEMENT ***
The real benefit (low hanging fruit) for most Remedy customers right now is
Self Service/Request Management…
IMHO - the lowest hanging fruit - is to just hang an enhancement on to your
existing solution (whether ITSM 7.6.x, 7,6,custom,???)
This is the Kinetic approach -- install a module (Kinetic Request) -- and
start configuring your Self Service…
To me - it makes NO SENSE to upgrade your world to v8 just to get SRM8 etc…
(crazy)

Just install Calendar -- start configuring your calendars -- no need to
upgrade the whole shooting match.

Just install Surveys -- start configuring your surveys -- no need to
upgrade the whole shooting match.
etc...

The BMC ITSM approach of "swallow whole pill" is an unwise approach for a
customer.
You should only touch what needs touching :) (Isn't that a fundamental of
good operations management???)
Upgrading Incident,Change,CMDB, Asset, SLM, RKM, blah blah blah -- to get a
nicer looking SRM - is [fill in blank]!!!

(((I should probably say "You should only touch what needs touching"™ )))
(Not sure if that character will make it through email programs (it was a T
M (trademark))

Wouldn't it seem like a better approach to be something like this:

1) Solid ARS
2) Solid ITSM base -- Incident,Chg, etc… (All modular)
3) Functional enhancements:
Calendaring
Surveying
Purchasing
Knowledge Mgmt
Dashboards
Costing
Time Mgmt
Proj Mgmt
(the list goes on)

Instead of getting a new (more solid) ITSM base over and over?

Could you imagine the breadth of functionality that could be built if the
base quit changing?
(Oh - and BTW - the added functionality is "selectable" -- so you don't
have to have it - if not relevant)

Maybe I should design a new ITSM world.
(Any takers???)

We could build a consortium -- each member company would pay $10k/year --
with unlimited usage…

I bet we could get 50 companies to start pretty easily.  Then after V1 --
we would get 200 companies to join...



-John




-- 

*John Sundberg*
Kinetic Data, Inc.
"Your Business. Your Process."

*Save The Date! *Second Annual KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
Feb. 25th - March 1st in Denver, CO. For more information click here -
KEG

651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com
www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

I don't get that twitter and RSS integration and the need for that either. I
can understand the need for available OTB integrations to other mass
communication media such as maybe Skype or NetMeeting.

But Twitter? To tweet what exactly?

"Oh I just logged into Remedy and am now at my home page, I got 14 incidents
assigned to me and I'm on my first cup of !! Yay!!"

Nay...

Point is what kind of a business use would twitter integrations really
serve? Apart from everyone uses it these days and it would be nice to be
able to communicate with users from there.. You could do it on cleaner tools
like Skype or NetMeeting or good old email.

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Pierson, Shawn
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:36 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working
with Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he
seemed to be pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not
tried it any further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to
me.  However, since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think
highly of it, I don't think we can completely dismiss it.

Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM apps
should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real SSO
where you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on your
corporate network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should be
streamlined even further instead of going back to adding even more tabs like
8.0 does (although to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the
Categorization tab, my users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still
think the best ITSM suite out there, but there needs to be a lot of movement
forward and in some cases disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.  I'd much
rather see BMC focus on continuing to clean up the interface before they add
more features like Twitter integrations and stuff that isn't as important.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson 
Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side.
I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers
Are, and have been for 20 years"

Private and confidential as detailed here:
http://www.energytransfer.com/mail_disclaimer.aspx .  If you cannot access
the link, please e-mail sender.


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

Really? What's it called?

 

Joe

 

  _  

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:01 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

 

Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit. 

For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is
making a push to get their foot in the door by offering their service
catalog functionality sitting in top of Remedy. 



Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:

** 

Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
curious.

 

Lisa Kemes

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone 

_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

But sometimes it's good to differentiate between cost and investment. Not
all changes can be classified as costs. If the money is spent right, it
could well be an investment. And sure investments do not usually come in
cheap. You got to weigh the returns. Its this lack of visibility of returns
that differentiates leaders from managers. Managers can be mass produced in
a business schools. Leaders belong to a different culture.

 

 

  _  

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of patrick zandi
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 8:59 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

 

** those people are called managers , and not leaders..  they are bean
counters and not  leaders... 
they are narcissistic about making a name for themselves, rather than be
content.. and make slow moves ...

just because you have a degree, does not mean you are smart... 
 
Cecil Lawson: Brilliant man and his directions were smart..   wonder how he
is doing these days.. 

Change cost money Every time ! 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:

** 

Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
curious.

 

Lisa Kemes

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone 


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

 

Like this person said - cost of the product itself. Sometimes a short term
vision for short term gains can lead to long term losses. Then again it
could be lack of funding itself. With the economy that is perhaps barely
recovering, I would think that is more of a reason than a lack of vision of
long term losses. They just take that chance of shooting themselves in the
foot and then see how far you can run :-).

 

Joe

 

  _  

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Lisa Kemes
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 8:52 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

 

** 

Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
curious.

 

Lisa Kemes

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone 


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Rackley, James]

I will grant your point about the Service Catalog for SNOW being time-consuming 
with the caveat that all new-to-the-user products have a learning curve (I'm 
looking at you Windows 8).   However, with only the SNOW online documentation, 
I was able to create a basic service in 15 minutes. A change request in only 20 
minutes.  Again, 0 training.

But here's a couple of interesting tidbits that may/may not be more important -

1. The cost of SNOW implementation and 5 years of "licenses" was still cheaper 
than our incomplete Remedy implementation (in our scenario)
2. SNOW is working with FEDRAMP to be an authorized cloud vendor for the US 
Federal Gov
3. SNOW has worked in every browser type I have tried (I'm looking at you SRM 8)

Regards,

Jim

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of patrick zandi
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:49 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

** you mention SSO .. it is weird why they did not continue ARSSSO ... It 
worked great.. I had it working with the Air Force Research Laboratory Rome NY, 
 It was definitely quirky to setup.. but it never failed..  It used the CAC 
cards and or userid login and was TRUE SSO.. no security through obscurity 
garbage..  but.. I get the impression the engineer at remedy who created it on 
his own, was not really authorized to do so, and since stopped working or was 
released.. Cause remedy never ever continued in it.. it just faded into the 
fog..   SAD quiet sad.. it worked well.. 



On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Lee Cullom 
 wrote:


Tauf,

Note: Implementation of ServiceNow's Service Catalog is extremely 
time-consuming as compared to SRM.  It has a great interface for 
demonstrations, but you might want to consider having a look at this for more 
detail (see change as a requestable offering in Remedy vs. SNOW):

http://www.itsmuniversity.net/service-now-vs-remedy-change-management/



Lee Cullom | Northcraft Analytics
IT Metrics Specialist | Business Intelligence for ITSM
Direct - 678-438-7244 | lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com
Main - (678) 664-ITSM


http://www.northcraftanalytics.com
Click on "View Demo" to see the product in action



-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
    Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?


All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about 
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is 
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side. I'm 
sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free 
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the 
Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"





-- 
Patrick Zandi _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_ 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Sundberg]

I agree with this.

I do think it is "grass is greener"

&&

Aggressive sales.

Other than that -- not really a benefit - if you ask me.

&&

Distaste -- sometimes companies just get "upset" with a BMC position or
salesperson - and choose to leave because of personal "grudge".

&&

New CIO comes in -- and why get a new CIO??? - the old CIO must have been
bad… (If you are the new CIO - and you just do what the old CIO did -- then
why did we hire the new person. (Quite common))



-John


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

> **
> Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit.
> For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is
> making a push to get their foot in the door by offering their service
> catalog functionality sitting in top of Remedy.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:
>
> **
> Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
> curious.
>
> Lisa Kemes
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury wrote:
>
>> All,
>> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
>> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
>> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
>> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
>> is:
>> 1. Have you done it
>> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>>
>> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
>> if you'd like :)
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
>> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>>
>
> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
>
> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
>



-- 

*John Sundberg*
Kinetic Data, Inc.
"Your Business. Your Process."

*Save The Date! *Second Annual KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
Feb. 25th - March 1st in Denver, CO. For more information click here -
KEG

651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com
www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Baker]

Patrick,

ARSSO? What's that?

If anyone is really interested in learning about the benefits of SNOW,
joining a SNOW forum and asking the question may be a good use of some
time. I know people who have nothing but good things to say about SNOW
even when given the choice of ITSM products: there are companies running
both for political reasons!

(The following is off topic.)

I note Shawn's comments about the ITSM interface and tabs. One of the
problems I've seen with ITSM since the days of AR System 5.2 (was it
called ITSM back then?) is that the UIs are not consistent. The answer
to everything is more tabs and randomly opening windows to select stuff.
A friend of mine likes to remind me that the use of tabs implies too
much information is being offered to the user, and tabs in tabs should
be made illegal. I think MS Word used tabs in tabs within the
preferences, but I can't remember when. Truly an awful design.

Look at Google: they really got "simple" and their UIs are well thought
out (I'm sure there's an exception though). I was looking at car
insurance last night and discovered the car insurance search tool (UK
only?). The UI was really slick and a pleasure to use, with lots of
directional information and pointers to the next steps. For example,
additional driver input fields only appeared when I told it there will
be an additional driver, and as I typed in my occupation, it prompted me
with the answer.

Shawn makes the point about Twitter integration. Quite, surely the Mid
Tier's massive consumption of CPU/memory on startup could be addressed
before time is spent on chat clients and Twitter integration.

Grass is always greener on the other side of the hill, but equally,
focusing on the core product is a key to success.


John

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Ken Pritchard]

Probably also a cost savings - that seems to be more important in this 
environment and can outway increases in functionality.  I think a lot of 
companies these days are going away from constant changes to the system 
towards just set it up for me and let me go - thus reducing the need for an 
IT shop.
- Original Message - 
From: "Lee Cullom" 

Newsgroups: public.remedy.arsystem.general
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?


Tauf,

Note: Implementation of ServiceNow's Service Catalog is extremely 
time-consuming as compared to SRM.  It has a great interface for 
demonstrations, but you might want to consider having a look at this for 
more detail (see change as a requestable offering in Remedy vs. SNOW):


http://www.itsmuniversity.net/service-now-vs-remedy-change-management/


Lee Cullom | Northcraft Analytics
IT Metrics Specialist | Business Intelligence for ITSM
Direct - 678-438-7244 | lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com
Main - (678) 664-ITSM

http://www.northcraftanalytics.com
Click on "View Demo" to see the product in action


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury

Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow 
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is 
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side. 
I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks

is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if 
you'd like :)


Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers 
Are, and have been for 20 years"


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years" 


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[patrick zandi]

you mention SSO .. it is weird why they did not continue ARSSSO ... It
worked great.. I had it working with the Air Force Research Laboratory Rome
NY,  It was definitely quirky to setup.. but it never failed..  It used the
CAC cards and or userid login and was TRUE SSO.. no security through
obscurity garbage..  but.. I get the impression the engineer at remedy who
created it on his own, was not really authorized to do so, and since
stopped working or was released.. Cause remedy never ever continued in it..
it just faded into the fog..   SAD quiet sad.. it worked well..


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Lee Cullom <
lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com> wrote:

> Tauf,
>
> Note: Implementation of ServiceNow's Service Catalog is extremely
> time-consuming as compared to SRM.  It has a great interface for
> demonstrations, but you might want to consider having a look at this for
> more detail (see change as a requestable offering in Remedy vs. SNOW):
>
> http://www.itsmuniversity.net/service-now-vs-remedy-change-management/
>
>
> Lee Cullom | Northcraft Analytics
> IT Metrics Specialist | Business Intelligence for ITSM
> Direct - 678-438-7244 | lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com
> Main - (678) 664-ITSM
>
> http://www.northcraftanalytics.com
> Click on "View Demo" to see the product in action
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:
> arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?
>
> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it
> is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment
> side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if
> you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the
> Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>



-- 
Patrick Zandi

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Lee Cullom]

Tauf,

Note: Implementation of ServiceNow's Service Catalog is extremely 
time-consuming as compared to SRM.  It has a great interface for 
demonstrations, but you might want to consider having a look at this for more 
detail (see change as a requestable offering in Remedy vs. SNOW):

http://www.itsmuniversity.net/service-now-vs-remedy-change-management/


Lee Cullom | Northcraft Analytics
IT Metrics Specialist | Business Intelligence for ITSM
Direct - 678-438-7244 | lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com 
Main - (678) 664-ITSM

http://www.northcraftanalytics.com 
Click on "View Demo" to see the product in action


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow 
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is 
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side. I'm 
sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if you'd 
like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers 
Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Pierson, Shawn]

A former colleague who is very knowledgeable with Remedy started working with 
Service Now a few years back.  The last time I heard from him, he seemed to be 
pretty happy with the capabilities of Service Now.  I've not tried it any 
further than watching demos, but it didn't seem that great to me.  However, 
since someone whose opinion on Remedy I trust seems to think highly of it, I 
don't think we can completely dismiss it.

Remedy is great, but there are some things that hold it back.  All ITSM apps 
should have WYSIWYG editors on the Notes fields, for example.  Real SSO where 
you don't have to log in to the application at all if you are on your corporate 
network should be included out of the box.  The GUI should be streamlined even 
further instead of going back to adding even more tabs like 8.0 does (although 
to be fair, while I am not happy to see a return of the Categorization tab, my 
users are.)  Remedy is a great toolset and I still think the best ITSM suite 
out there, but there needs to be a lot of movement forward and in some cases 
disruptive redesign to stay in the lead.  I'd much rather see BMC focus on 
continuing to clean up the interface before they add more features like Twitter 
integrations and stuff that isn't as important.

Thanks,

Shawn Pierson
Remedy Developer | Energy Transfer


-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about SNow 
having an integration or some type of implementation scenario where it is 
taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the fulfillment side. I'm 
sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free if you'd 
like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org "Where the Answers 
Are, and have been for 20 years"

Private and confidential as detailed here: 
http://www.energytransfer.com/mail_disclaimer.aspx .  If you cannot access the 
link, please e-mail sender.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Lee Cullom]

Sylvia,

Have a look at this article, it might be of some assistance.  It contains the 
information you've requested.  I thought some others might like to see it as 
well.  For additional information, feel free to reach out to me directly.

http://www.itsmuniversity.net/state-of-the-itsm-market-release-7/


Lee Cullom | Northcraft Analytics
IT Metrics Specialist | Business Intelligence for ITSM
Direct - 678-438-7244 | 
lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com<mailto:lee.cul...@northcraftanalytics.com>
Main - (678) 664-ITSM
[Description: Description: 
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSo4qhIq-bDh4Z1UzKXet0tiAZqqejjd1BT8lVOHdrzZQwqeZun]<http://www.linkedin.com/in/leecullom>[Description:
 Description: 
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSWE5AoudybparNXkh21Br8ZWGNBqdra5ylZ63igCoZ36o5b5iFEA]<http://twitter.com/#!/NorthcraftIT>
http://www.northcraftanalytics.com<http://www.northcraftanalytics.com/>
Click on "View Demo" to see the product in action

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Sylvain YVON
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:11 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

**
**
Their main argument is that SNOW was designed for the modern cloud 
architectures, as opposed to AR System & ITSM which had to adapt. I'm still 
looking for plain numbers to see how Remedy Force and Remedy On Demand are 
doing worldwide.
By the way, SNOW can be run either as SaaS or on-premise.

I don't know much more about SNOW, but competition is always a good thing.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Tauf Chowdhury 
mailto:taufc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
**
Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit.
For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is making a 
push to get their foot in the door by offering their service catalog 
functionality sitting in top of Remedy.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes 
mailto:lisa.ke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
**
Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just 
curious.

Lisa Kemes
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury 
mailto:taufc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at 
www.arslist.org<http://www.arslist.org/>
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
<><>

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Sylvain YVON]

**
Their main argument is that SNOW was designed for the modern cloud
architectures, as opposed to AR System & ITSM which had to adapt. I'm still
looking for plain numbers to see how Remedy Force and Remedy On Demand are
doing worldwide.
By the way, SNOW can be run either as SaaS or on-premise.

I don't know much more about SNOW, but competition is always a good thing.


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

> **
> Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit.
> For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is
> making a push to get their foot in the door by offering their service
> catalog functionality sitting in top of Remedy.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:
>
> **
> Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
> curious.
>
> Lisa Kemes
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury wrote:
>
>> All,
>> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
>> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
>> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
>> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
>> is:
>> 1. Have you done it
>> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>>
>> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
>> if you'd like :)
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
>> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>>
>
> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
>
> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_
>

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Tauf Chowdhury]

Could be the ole "grass is greener on the other side" bit.
For the specific thing that I was talking about, it seems that SNow is
making a push to get their foot in the door by offering their service
catalog functionality sitting in top of Remedy.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:

**
Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
curious.

Lisa Kemes

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
> if you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>

_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[patrick zandi]

those people are called managers , and not leaders..  they are bean
counters and not  leaders...
they are narcissistic about making a name for themselves, rather than be
content.. and make slow moves ...

just because you have a degree, does not mean you are smart...

Cecil Lawson: Brilliant man and his directions were smart..   wonder how he
is doing these days..

Change cost money Every time !

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Lisa Kemes  wrote:

> **
> Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
> curious.
>
> Lisa Kemes
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury wrote:
>
>> All,
>> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
>> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
>> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
>> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
>> is:
>> 1. Have you done it
>> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>>
>> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
>> if you'd like :)
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
>> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>>
>
> _ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_




-- 
Patrick Zandi

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Lisa Kemes]

Why do people feel the need to switch to Service Now to begin with?  Just
curious.

Lisa Kemes

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
> if you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Sanford, Claire]

There is a BIG insurance company that is in the news this week because they are 
thinking about suing the US Government.  They used to use Remedy.  They 
Switched to SNOW.  They switched BACK to Remedy.

From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Sundberg
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 10:46 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

**
(I mention Kinetic products in this post - move along if you don't like that)

***If anybody wants to know more -- call me or email me direct.

Tauf,

I am aware of this -- it is surprising - but it is happening.
(I was in DC last month for one, we received a PO for one today (so we won) :), 
and we have a response for another due tomorrow)

I am seeing ServiceNow pop up in RFPs (nearly all of them) - where the base 
system is ARS - and they want a Service Catalog on top.

I do not know how SNOW is integrating with BMC - but the way to do it is with 
the APIs not with WebServices. Of the people that have tried web services in 
significant volume - they seem unhappy. You can be happy with WebServices - but 
I think that is for casual interaction. But if you want to get data from CMDB 
or ITSM for actually driving real requests etc... you will want the APIs.

Of the ones I am aware of, SRM was attempted, however the needs were met 
(predicable IMHO) - so they are going elsewhere. They want to keep the base ARS 
ITSM - but SRM is not cutting the mustard.

Oh - and BTW - these are not rinky-dink companies -- these are BIG DEALS.

To all interested in this topic -- I HIGHLY RECOMMEND coming to our user 
conference KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
You will see why people like the Kinetic approach, and learn how you can 
maximize your ARS system.
http://www.kineticdata.com/Events/KEG.html



-John

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury 
mailto:taufc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at 
www.arslist.org<http://www.arslist.org>
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"



--

John Sundberg
Kinetic Data, Inc.
"Your Business. Your Process."

Save The Date! Second Annual KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
Feb. 25th - March 1st in Denver, CO. For more information click here - 
KEG<http://www.kineticdata.com/Events/KEG.html>

651-556-0930 I 
john.sundb...@kineticdata.com<mailto:john.sundb...@kineticdata.com>
www.kineticdata.com<http://www.kineticdata.com/> I 
community.kineticdata.com<http://community.kineticdata.com/>


_ARSlist: "Where the Answers Are" and have been for 20 years_

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[John Sundberg]

(I mention Kinetic products in this post - move along if you don't like
that)

***If anybody wants to know more -- call me or email me direct.

Tauf,

I am aware of this -- it is surprising - but it is happening.
(I was in DC last month for one, we received a PO for one today (so we won)
:), and we have a response for another due tomorrow)

I am seeing ServiceNow pop up in RFPs (nearly all of them) - where the base
system is ARS - and they want a Service Catalog on top.

I do not know how SNOW is integrating with BMC - but the way to do it is
with the APIs not with WebServices. Of the people that have tried web
services in significant volume - they seem unhappy. You can be happy with
WebServices - but I think that is for casual interaction. But if you want
to get data from CMDB or ITSM for actually driving real requests etc… you
will want the APIs.

Of the ones I am aware of, SRM was attempted, however the needs were met
(predicable IMHO) - so they are going elsewhere. They want to keep the base
ARS ITSM - but SRM is not cutting the mustard.

Oh - and BTW - these are not rinky-dink companies -- these are BIG DEALS.

To all interested in this topic -- I HIGHLY RECOMMEND coming to our user
conference KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
You will see why people like the Kinetic approach, and learn how you can
maximize your ARS system.
http://www.kineticdata.com/Events/KEG.html



-John


On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Tauf Chowdhury  wrote:

> All,
> A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
> SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
> where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
> fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
> is:
> 1. Have you done it
> 2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?
>
> I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
> if you'd like :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
> "Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"
>



-- 

*John Sundberg*
Kinetic Data, Inc.
"Your Business. Your Process."

*Save The Date! *Second Annual KEG (Kinetic Enthusiasts Group)
Feb. 25th - March 1st in Denver, CO. For more information click here -
KEG

651-556-0930 I john.sundb...@kineticdata.com
www.kineticdata.com I community.kineticdata.com

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

These reviews are exactly in lines with what I heard from an actual customer
who had made the shift over. From my sketchy memory of that conversation,
this person had not even heard they were using Remedy when they were using
it, simply because they had no problems with the way it worked so why bother
to find out what it was.. but the moment they switched over to ServiceNow,
they started having problems which is when this person found out they were
now using ServiceNow and the shift they made was from Remedy..

So I guess ServiceNow can make its presence felt :-) - which is not always a
good thing...

Joe

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Easter, David
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:52 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

Not sure if any of the "ITSM Independent Consultants" on ARSList were
interviewed for this article, but it's a recommended read for those
considering ServiceNow.

ServiceNow: Disaffected Customers Mark The Peak Of Its Hype Cycle
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1101901-servicenow-disaffected-customers-mar
k-the-peak-of-its-hype-cycle

For example:

"I was so hopeful about Service-Now when we brought it in, after replacing
BMC's Remedy, but I now wish we would have just kept Remedy [emphasis
added]. They just aren't ready to handle organizations like ours. We are a
multi-hospital system and have about 200 concurrent users in the system and
the latency is unbelievably slow. We've worked with their tech support for
many hours over multiple weeks and [are] just not getting anywhere." - Grace
Beckett


-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, AR System
BSM & Atrium Solutions Management
BMC Software, Inc.
 
The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in
this E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc.  My
voluntary participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a
spokesperson, liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software,
Inc.
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:36 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

ServiceNow is an offsite hosted solution to the best of my knowledge, so if
your solution is hosted onsite, I see a few problems there.

One of the reasons you want your solution hosted onsite is to be able to
maintain it at your schedule and not someone else's. Also you do not want
someone else to be giving you terms and conditions of how you need to run
your business in order to use the solution.

Also I heard from someone I knew, that ServiceNow just doesn't quite measure
up to Remedy as far as customization and flexibility is concerned. They used
to be a Remedy shop and moved to ServiceNow to lower their costs (as
ServiceNow is way cheaper). Not all of the users are happy with that given
that they do not even see the right results on their consoles when they do a
out of the box search to view their own tickets. According to this person,
the list of tickets you see on consoles are flaky and they see more than
they should and sometimes do not see what they should have.. And it being
harder to customize, they can't do much about it but use it as is..

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"


___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Easter, David]

Not sure if any of the "ITSM Independent Consultants" on ARSList were 
interviewed for this article, but it's a recommended read for those considering 
ServiceNow.

ServiceNow: Disaffected Customers Mark The Peak Of Its Hype Cycle
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1101901-servicenow-disaffected-customers-mark-the-peak-of-its-hype-cycle

For example:

"I was so hopeful about Service-Now when we brought it in, after replacing 
BMC's Remedy, but I now wish we would have just kept Remedy [emphasis added]. 
They just aren't ready to handle organizations like ours. We are a 
multi-hospital system and have about 200 concurrent users in the system and the 
latency is unbelievably slow. We've worked with their tech support for many 
hours over multiple weeks and [are] just not getting anywhere." - Grace Beckett


-David J. Easter
Manager of Product Management, AR System
BSM & Atrium Solutions Management
BMC Software, Inc.
 
The opinions, statements, and/or suggested courses of action expressed in this 
E-mail do not necessarily reflect those of BMC Software, Inc.  My voluntary 
participation in this forum is not intended to convey a role as a spokesperson, 
liaison or public relations representative for BMC Software, Inc.
-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) 
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Joe D'Souza
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:36 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

ServiceNow is an offsite hosted solution to the best of my knowledge, so if
your solution is hosted onsite, I see a few problems there.

One of the reasons you want your solution hosted onsite is to be able to
maintain it at your schedule and not someone else's. Also you do not want
someone else to be giving you terms and conditions of how you need to run
your business in order to use the solution.

Also I heard from someone I knew, that ServiceNow just doesn't quite measure
up to Remedy as far as customization and flexibility is concerned. They used
to be a Remedy shop and moved to ServiceNow to lower their costs (as
ServiceNow is way cheaper). Not all of the users are happy with that given
that they do not even see the right results on their consoles when they do a
out of the box search to view their own tickets. According to this person,
the list of tickets you see on consoles are flaky and they see more than
they should and sometimes do not see what they should have.. And it being
harder to customize, they can't do much about it but use it as is..

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

Re: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Joe D'Souza]

ServiceNow is an offsite hosted solution to the best of my knowledge, so if
your solution is hosted onsite, I see a few problems there.

One of the reasons you want your solution hosted onsite is to be able to
maintain it at your schedule and not someone else's. Also you do not want
someone else to be giving you terms and conditions of how you need to run
your business in order to use the solution.

Also I heard from someone I knew, that ServiceNow just doesn't quite measure
up to Remedy as far as customization and flexibility is concerned. They used
to be a Remedy shop and moved to ServiceNow to lower their costs (as
ServiceNow is way cheaper). Not all of the users are happy with that given
that they do not even see the right results on their consoles when they do a
out of the box search to view their own tickets. According to this person,
the list of tickets you see on consoles are flaky and they see more than
they should and sometimes do not see what they should have.. And it being
harder to customize, they can't do much about it but use it as is..

-Original Message-
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Tauf Chowdhury
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:38 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"

ServiceNow as SRM replacement?

[Tauf Chowdhury]

All,
A little birdie was chirping the other day and I heard something about
SNow having an integration or some type of implementation scenario
where it is taking the place of SRM But still have AR and ITSM on the
fulfillment side. I'm sure it's possible but my question to you folks
is:
1. Have you done it
2. If so, what gives? How'd it go?

I understand the drawbacks so we don't have to go there but feel free
if you'd like :)

Sent from my iPhone

___
UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org
"Where the Answers Are, and have been for 20 years"