subject:"Re\: \[Assam\] More on Minneapolis Collapse"

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse; Big Dig project

2007-08-14 Thread umesh sharma

C-da,

My suggestion is that please find sometime to guide students of architecture in 
India and US as a guest faculty atleast -sharing your world of experience after 
you graduation in 1969 from Architecture dept of IIT Kharagpur (where  a  
student  of mine is now sudying) . 

About Boston's failed Big Dig undersea-tunnel project (world's largest 
construction project)   leading to Logan AIrport from Boston city -- 

which you explained so clearly here- I had never known its faults with even 
Harvard's and MIT's archi. schools around ( I went thru the tunnel only once in 
a shared taxi  --while coming to DC for the first time with Harvard classmates 
in Nov 2004 for a edu. seminar of CIES  )

You do have a knack of explaining things - tough teaching needs more patience 
than other activities.

Best wishes.

Umesh

umesh sharma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: C-da,

This piece by you  seemed educative to a lay person like me (who has plenty of 
structural/civil engineers and architects make egregious blunders -  the 
building of  Jaipur School has somewhat rhombus shape rather than original 
rectangular shape and even shifted the foundations a bit off - leading to 
renewed repairs and buttressing -- that under the overseeing of top architects 
and engineers in the city -atleast most people thought so)
Umesh

***

 Hi K:


 C'da your comments on this will be highly
 appreciated
 --- first because it was designed by some Very
 Bright
 and Very Creative American Engineer whose Math
 foundation is very strong (unlike some Desi idiot)


 *** I was hoping to be able to answer your question
 intelligently. But the premise of your questions
 left me completely bewildered.

   Did *I*
 make those assertions about the
 qualifications or even implied them about who
   might have designed the bridge, or how good they
 were in math? How do you know who
   designed it? What if it was designed by some very
 creative East Pakistani structural engineer
   trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who
 developed the structural system for the
   Sears Towers? What then?

 I thought you are an engineer. But  from the
 comments you make and the questions you ask, I must
 have been wrong.  Anyway, a bridge's integrity is
 not the function of just its design alone. The math
 skills of the designer hardly enter the equation.
 Most structural elements fail not because of design,
 but
 for a variety of other factors, most notably due to
 poor construction practices , which is a result of
 incompetent management, human
 failures, sometimes
 corruption--as in India, and sometimes just because
 of the laws of probability playing out: if something
 could go wrong, it would, sooner or later.

 The Boston Tunnel concrete panel failures were
 determined to be a result of using quick-setting
 epoxy bolts, instead of the specified standard
 setting epoxy, which develop their full strength
 slowly, over about 48 hours, but remain strong
 thereafter. On the other hand the quick setting
 epoxy develops strength within minutes, but do not
 retain it over time. Investigators found, that the
 right material was ordered by the installers, but
 was furnished the wrong product by the supplier . It
 appears as though someone in the shipping warehouse
 packed the wrong stuff.  Here it is a case of a
 human failure, that no amount engineering acumen or
 management expertise could have
 prevented.

 The Minneapolis failure seems to have been
 precipitated by huge amounts of dead weight piled on
 the bridge deck from rock sent for the repairs. This
 is a management failure.  Whoever was overseeing the
 logistics of the material delivery either did not
 have any knowledge of structures and load bearing
 capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.

 There could be other factors: Such as non-inclusion
 of the redundancy principle of design. This was a
 political issue, of managing the cost and funding.
 Or defective welding. Fifty years back welding
 technology was not as sophisticated as it is today.
 Today we have ultrasonic testing done, before
 welded structural members of critical components. In
 my last major project, I had to reject a number of
 large span bowstring trusses, which were shop
 welded, but installed
 without ultrasonic testing.
 The installers installed the trusses, but when asked
 for certificates of testing, could not produce them.
 On site testing showed that a number of joints were
 unacceptable. The result was a very expensive on
 site correction of the joints that cost the steel
 fabricators big time. By the end of the job, the
 fabricator was going out of business. Apparently it
 had other problems elsewhere as well. They got our
 job, because they were the lowest bidders, and not
 necessarily because they were also good fabricators.
 The public bidding requirements in this case was a
 contributing factor-- by allowing a fabricator of
 questionable skills or management abilities to get
 the work.

 The

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-09 Thread Krishnendu Chakraborty

C'da


 Is it what I said about Indian engineering colleges
 not training 
 their students to be creative ? If that is what
 bothers you, why 
 don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
 statement? That would 
 put me in my place.

since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is on
you to proved the point.  We have shown numerous
examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in India
are shining in India and abroad.



 Furthermore, just because  I faulted Indian
 engineering institutions 
 of failing to inculcate creativity among their
 students, does not 
 necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere else
 are CREATIVE or 
 above errors of judgement or could not be guilty of
 incompetence.
 

If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and
non-Creative Engineers everywhere, the debate ends


 Nor does the fact of one or even many Indian
 engineers excelling in 
 their fields and doing highly creative work in the
 USA  or in India 
 mean that my comment is without any merit. 
A few
 exceptions cannot 
 change the truths of the vast majority.

To prove merit of your statement YOU need to support
your statement with documentation.  How dod you say
that your version is the truth ???
Indian students including Graduate engineers are
highly acclaimed in many US institutes.  Guess under
which educational system they had their basic
education ?  


 Just because of the lapses on one or more instances
 resulting in the 
 Minneapolis bridge failure for example, does not
 mean that it is 
 absent everywhere in the USA. Nor does it mean that
 since such 
 absence is widespread in India, as is evidenced by
 the percentage of 
 failures, India's situation the SAME as that of the
 USA.

No one probably claims that India's situation is SAME
as that of US.  There are areas where India is worse
then US and there are areas where US is worse then
India. However,  unlike your tall claims,  checks and
balances  DO fail in US too;  corruption is NOT
something which is absent in US.  
Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.  India is
developing fast and there are improvements in
different areas but I agree,  with eyes closed by
India-Hate, it is difficult to see.

 *** You sure know where to hit a guy where it hurts,
 don't you  :-)?

I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
tricks from you :) 

 Finally the following latest news on the Big Dig
 failure in our local paper.
 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/3075F8E291AEA88386257332000A1983?OpenDocument
 I hope the above will put your suspicions about my
 spinning that story .


Please check this  a more authoratitive source I
would believe
http://boston.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel06/contractorfraud050406.htm

Note -- They are charged with highway project fraud
and related offenses for their participation in a
scheme to provide concrete to Big Dig projects that
did not meet contract specifications, and to conceal
the true nature of the concrete through false
documentation.

I think concealing the true nature through false
documents  is corruption.  May be your superlative
English knowledge will interpret it as human error !

Even from your source -- Powers Fasteners knew the
type of epoxy it marketed and sold for the nearly $15
billion project was unsuitable for the weight it would
have to hold, but never told project managers. --  it
is eveident that some people concealed some KNOWN
facts  human error indeed :)

It is difficult to digest that a person who will
travel to the other end of World (or World Wide Web) 
to find a fault in Indian System (or Indians) failed
to notice this :) 

Once again you abstained from answering many of the
questions from my posting ... but again , this is not
the first time !

K



--- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Looks like you want to avoid answering these
 since then you might 
 have to eat up some of your words on Indian
 Engineers. I would not 
 insist you to answer these.
 
 
 
 *** Now I get it!  You are trying to find ways to
 have me --eat up 
 some of your words on Indian Engineers. I must have
 caused a lot of 
 heart-burn again, did I?
 
 But the question that remains unanswered is WHAT  I
 supposedly said 
 about Indian engineers that trouble you so and would
 like to have me 
 'eat them' ?
 
 Is it what I said about Indian engineering colleges
 not training 
 their students to be creative ? If that is what
 bothers you, why 
 don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
 statement? That would 
 put me in my place. I know you are somewhat
 handicapped by not being 
 an engineer . Perhaps some of our own IIT engineers
 here will give 
 you a hand with that, with solid examples of how I
 was wrong.
 
 
 Furthermore, just because  I faulted Indian
 engineering institutions 
 of failing to inculcate creativity among their
 students, does not 
 necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere else
 are CREATIVE or 
 above errors of judgement or could not be

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-09 Thread Chan Mahanta


 since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is on
you to proved the point.  We have shown numerous
examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in India
are shining in India and abroad.




*** The proof is in the product or' performance. If anyone can show 
how Indian trained engineers have
found creative solutions to India's many problems and demonstrated 
their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I have been in an 
Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one. And I know 
exactly what goes on there.  I also know that they have not changed 
in their fundamental approach. The result is all over to see.


That is however the not to suggest that the scarcity of Indian 
engineering ingenuity or creativity is entirely of training origin. 
There are other factors, most notably India's governance and its 
culture: Of stifling innovation, of discouraging ingenuity and of the 
inability to see, recognize and reward innovation, ingenuity and 
creativity. No wonder then that the only creativity and ingenuity 
coming out of Indian engineers are to be found abroad.


But the main reason for the absence of engineering ingenuity and 
creativity in India , as in every other field, remains in its 
education system, one founded on rote learning.




If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and non-Creative 
Engineers everywhere, the debate ends



*** Except in the percentages of the blend.



How dod you say that your version is the truth ???


*** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a few examples of 
Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to its national, 
forget humanity's,  good or well being.




No one probably claims that India's situation is SAME as that of US.


*** That comes out only when challenged. There is corruption 
everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the degrees.  And how it 
is rewarded or punished by society.


Bridges  fail both in India and the USA. But when one attempts to 
place both in the same degree, then one is lying thru one's teeth.




Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.


*** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an absurd level and 
then attempting to demolish it.




I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few tricks from you :)



*** I was just being facetious. It does not hurt me one bit to be 
told how no one pays any attention to what I have to say.  The proof 
is in the responses they evoke :-).






At 12:19 PM -0700 8/9/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:

C'da



 Is it what I said about Indian engineering colleges
 not training
 their students to be creative ? If that is what
 bothers you, why
 don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
 statement? That would
 put me in my place.


since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is on
you to proved the point.  We have shown numerous
examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in India
are shining in India and abroad.




 Furthermore, just because  I faulted Indian
 engineering institutions
 of failing to inculcate creativity among their
 students, does not
 necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere else
 are CREATIVE or
 above errors of judgement or could not be guilty of
 incompetence.



If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and
non-Creative Engineers everywhere, the debate ends



 Nor does the fact of one or even many Indian
 engineers excelling in
 their fields and doing highly creative work in the
 USA  or in India
 mean that my comment is without any merit.

A few

 exceptions cannot
 change the truths of the vast majority.


To prove merit of your statement YOU need to support
your statement with documentation.  How dod you say
that your version is the truth ???
Indian students including Graduate engineers are
highly acclaimed in many US institutes.  Guess under
which educational system they had their basic
education ? 




 Just because of the lapses on one or more instances

  resulting in the

 Minneapolis bridge failure for example, does not
 mean that it is
 absent everywhere in the USA. Nor does it mean that
 since such
 absence is widespread in India, as is evidenced by
 the percentage of
 failures, India's situation the SAME as that of the
 USA.


No one probably claims that India's situation is SAME
as that of US.  There are areas where India is worse
then US and there are areas where US is worse then
India. However,  unlike your tall claims,  checks and
balances  DO fail in US too;  corruption is NOT
something which is absent in US.
Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.  India is
developing fast and there are improvements in
different areas but I agree,  with eyes closed by
India-Hate, it is difficult to see.


 *** You sure know where to hit a guy where it hurts,
 don't you  :-)?


I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
tricks from you :)


 Finally the following latest news on the Big Dig
 failure in our local paper.

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-09 Thread Krishnendu Chakraborty

 *** The proof is in the product or' performance. If
 anyone can show 
 how Indian trained engineers have
 found creative solutions to India's many problems
 and demonstrated 
 their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I
 have been in an 
 Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one.
 And I know 
 exactly what goes on there.

Who do you think is working on building Dams,
Skyscrappers, Power Plants etc in India ?  Who do you
think is teaching in IIT's producing Engineers like
you (I am assuming you consider yourself to be
Creative)
Who do you think has automated the banking system in
Indian Banks, many of which now offer services better
then US banks?
Who do you think automated the operations in Indian
Stock Exchange which now operates in a T+2 mode
(against T+3 in US)?
How do you think India has advanced over past several
years without Creative Contributions from Indian
Engineers?



No wonder then that the only creativity
 and ingenuity 
 coming out of Indian engineers are to be found
 abroad.


You are again way-off the reality.  There are a good
number of Creative Engineers who decided to work
towards a better India.  Also,  in recent years, we
have been seeing a significant amount of reverse brain
drain.


as in every other field,
 remains in its 
 education system, one founded on rote learning.

as in other fields  have you heard of medical
tourism ?  why do you think people from western
developed countries rely on Indian Doctors for their
major surgeries . cost ???  But will you allow a
layman to have a heart surgery on you even if it is
free of cost ??
Why do you think American Instituions of Higher
Education never stop praising Indian students ?  What
am I missing ??

 *** That comes out only when challenged. There is
 corruption 
 everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the
 degrees.  And how it 
 is rewarded or punished by society.

Tell us how is it punished by society?  In Big Dig,
for example,  we see that the middle rung of
management being punished ... is it not the same in
India ?  The top rung goes scott free in most cases,
everywhere.
As for degrees . agreed there is variation but
your comment --sometimes corruption--as in India, 
can equally be replaced with sometimes corruption--as
in US,


 If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and
 non-Creative 
 Engineers everywhere, the debate ends
 
 
 *** Except in the percentages of the blend.

and how do you decide on the percentage  what is
your secret tool !



 How dod you say that your version is the truth
 ???
 
 *** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a
 few examples of 
 Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to
 its national, 
 forget humanity's,  good or well being.


Showed enough   from Power Sector to banking.  Now
it is your turn to DEFEND  your truth.


 Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.

 *** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an
 absurd level and 
 then attempting to demolish it.


You are the master of such tricks ...I am yet to learn
basics :-)

However,  why do you think Harvard wants to learn
about Supply Chain from Mumbai Dabbawalas?

Have you ever seen Mumbai suburban trains?  The
overcrowded trains runs every 4 - 5 minutes and shares
the same track as long distance trains.  
The trains maintain exceptional punctuality and rarely
have collissions.  Compare this to what I found in
Boston  3 avoidable accidents (human error)  in
last one year and numerous cancellations and late
running of trains. In one year, there have been at
least 30 occassions where trains were running
significantly late and there are at least 10 - 15
occassions where the train was cancelled.  And
remember,  these trains DO NOT share the tracks with
long distance trains nor are the frequency as high as
that in Mumbai.


BTW   where do you stand on Big Dig  human error
or corruption


--- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   since it was YOU who made the comment the burden
 is on
 you to proved the point.  We have shown numerous
 examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in
 India
 are shining in India and abroad.
 
 
 
 *** The proof is in the product or' performance. If
 anyone can show 
 how Indian trained engineers have
 found creative solutions to India's many problems
 and demonstrated 
 their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I
 have been in an 
 Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one.
 And I know 
 exactly what goes on there.  I also know that they
 have not changed 
 in their fundamental approach. The result is all
 over to see.
 
 That is however the not to suggest that the scarcity
 of Indian 
 engineering ingenuity or creativity is entirely of
 training origin. 
 There are other factors, most notably India's
 governance and its 
 culture: Of stifling innovation, of discouraging
 ingenuity and of the 
 inability to see, recognize and reward innovation,
 ingenuity and 
 creativity. No wonder then that the only creativity

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-09 Thread Chan Mahanta


 Who do you think is working on building Dams,
Skyscrappers, Power Plants etc in India ?  Who do you
think is teaching in IIT's producing Engineers like
you (I am assuming you consider yourself to be
Creative)
Who do you think has automated the banking system in
Indian Banks, many of which now offer services better
then US banks?
Who do you think automated the operations in Indian
Stock Exchange which now operates in a T+2 mode
(against T+3 in US)?
How do you think India has advanced over past several
years without Creative Contributions from Indian

Engineers?



*** What were the ingenuity or creative aspects of these so called 
achievements of Indian engineering?
How does someone who do not have a shelter over their heads or get 
two meals a day or cannot send their children to school or do not a 
get a liter of safe drinking water a week  benefit from T2 
stock-exchange  ( whatever that might mean) that is the envy of the 
USA.


And how many of the above were the result of original Indian 
engineering creativity?


*** I am beginning to wonder whether you understands what creativity 
means. Perhaps that is where the problem is.





You are again way-off the reality.  There are a good number of 
Creative Engineers who decided to work towards a better India. 
Also,  in recent years, wehave been seeing a significant amount 
of reverse braindrain.



*** I will up you one on that. I would bet there are more than a 
'number of ' creative engineers. I would hope anyway. Out of a 
billion people, if they have only a 'number' of them, that would be 
quite a downer.
But the question is why  not a whole lot more than that who are at 
least as good as the Chinese or the Russians in contributing creative 
solutions to their unique national needs and welfare?


At any event, why don't you educate us by naming a few whose 
contributions you would consider creative and not merely a me-too 
versions of others' creations?


I can't care less about reverse brain-drain. Or the straight one. But 
if a nation spends its meager resources producing engineers and 
scientists and what-have-you, only to have them go serve the needs of 
developed countries, performing routine duties or even become 
creatively; instead of producing those who are contributing to the 
national good creatively and with ingenuity, something is terribly 
broken, isn't it? More so when that is happening at the cost of 
leaving millions back who do not even get a halfway decent primary 
education, or for that matter any education.



 as in other fields  have you heard of medical tourism ? 
why do you think people from western
developed countries rely on Indian Doctors for their major surgeries 
. cost ???  But will you allow a
layman to have a heart surgery on you even if it is free of cost ?? 
Why do you think American Instituions of Higher Education never stop 
praising Indian students ?  What am I missing ??



*** What you are missing is the essence of creativity and ingenuity.

Not to imply Indians are incapable of such creativity.  It is quite 
the opposite. They can be as good as anybody else. But their 
education and training do not inculcate ingenuity and creativity. 
That is why we see so many blossom ONLY after they LEAVE India.  That 
is the difference.



 Tell us how is it punished by society?  In Big Dig, for example, 
we see that the middle rung of

management being punished ...



*** Actually no one is punished YET for any wrong-doing at the Big 
Dig. It is still being litigated as the news-clip I posted earlier 
shows I will give you a small example: In the eighties, an interior 
bridge/walkway over the Lobby at the Hyatt Regency hotel in Kansas 
City collapsed from dancing and partying guests, killing hundreds. 
Next day structural engineers' and (architects' too) liability 
insurance rates shot up thru the roof, and has not yet come back 
down. For years I, a tiny operator, have been paying far more in 
liability insurance rates than a practising internist would be. I 
don't know who else had to pay or how. But that was a lesson not to 
be forgotten--about what it might mean to be sloppy with one's work. 
The highly respected structural engineering firm of course went out 
of business immediately.  The top man, if I  am not mistaken, fled 
the country. I don't know if he was ever brought to justice or what 
happened to him. But regardless, it changed the ways things are done, 
dramatically.


Now you tell us how such a tragedy has changed Indian engineering or 
governance. Unless of course none such ever happened in India. Tell 
what institutional deterrence i there.


It was only a couple of weeks back, the equivalent of the FDA 
director of China was executed, for taking bribes of less than a 
million dollar.  It was a very severe punishment. But  his 
dereliction of duty led to many many deaths of children around the 
world, not to mention undocumented damages to lives and grievous 
injury to Chinese Industry's

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-09 Thread Krishnendu Chakraborty

 *** What were the ingenuity or creative aspects of
 these so called 
 achievements of Indian engineering?
 How does someone who do not have a shelter over
 their heads or get 
 two meals a day or cannot send their children to
 school or do not a 
 get a liter of safe drinking water a week  benefit
 from T2 
 stock-exchange  ( whatever that might mean) that is
 the envy of the 
 USA.

And in the same logic ... how does the Homeless in US
(I see a lot of them in Boston) benefit from your
CREATIVE education and engineer.

I am not sure I understand HOW Creativity has
something to do with solving a issue of getting two
square meal. However,  since you have learned
enough,  are creative enough, why don't you implement
some such Magic solutions at least in Assam.



 
 And how many of the above were the result of
 original Indian 
 engineering creativity?

ALL  ... unless you came over to India to help us do
all these.

 *** I am beginning to wonder whether you understands
 what creativity 
 means. Perhaps that is where the problem is.
 

Why don;t you educate us how creatively you will
provide two square meals to all in Assam  or for
that matter what is meant by Nation Building  and
How Indian Engineers have miserably failed in it.


 if a nation spends its meager resources producing
 engineers and 
 scientists and what-have-you, only to have them go
 serve the needs of 
 developed countries, performing routine duties or
 even become 
 creatively; instead of producing those who are
 contributing to the 

There is a genuine problem.  Many of these Engineers
move to developed country for Money.  Nothing wrong
with it but unfortunately these same engineers then
cry hoarse why India is producing engineers who serve
in other countries .

 least as good as the Chinese or the Russians in
 contributing creative 
 solutions to their unique national needs and
 welfare?

The Welfare of Russia was just exposed after the
communist government collapsed.   Let us know
HOW/Where Russia stands in terms of square meal.

 *** What you are missing is the essence of
 creativity and ingenuity.

Not sure if a Heart Surgeon need to be creative. 
However,  I would assume he/she need to be because
every operation is a challenge and in many case a
surgeon need to take a split second decision.

Let me know if it is otherwise.

 
 Not to imply Indians are incapable of such
 creativity.  It is quite 
 the opposite. They can be as good as anybody else.
 But their 
 education and training do not inculcate ingenuity
 and creativity. 
 That is why we see so many blossom ONLY after they
 LEAVE India.  That 
 is the difference.

You are again incorrect.  If it would have blossomed
ONLY after they LEAVE India,  it would not have been
possible to have for example the Stock Exchange
Infrastructure. I am sticking to my field  but it does
not mean there are not other success stories.  

Further,  do you think that the SAT or GRE or GMAT
DOES NOT test for Creativity ? Are these tests meant
for those expert in Rote memory ... not the typical
American Education right ??

And how do you think a guy who has completed over 16
years of formal education suddenly become CREATIVE?? 


 It was only a couple of weeks back, the equivalent
 of the FDA 
 director of China was executed, for taking bribes of
 less than a 
 million dollar.  It was a very severe punishment.
 But  his 
 dereliction of duty led to many many deaths of
 children around the 
 world, not to mention undocumented damages to lives
 and grievous 
 injury to Chinese Industry's goodwill. That is
 deterrence. Tell us 
 about India's .


You are right .  I cannot show such capital
punishment in India ... However informed people know
who swiftly India acted when some data were leaked
thorough Call Centers.  This has re-established the
western coutries confidence on Indian Business Model. 


Would also appreciate your comments on the following
http://www.in-pharmatechnologist.com/news/ng.asp?n=77005-pfizer-nigeria-lawsuit-trovan-meningitis

BTW,  you have been criticizing Indian System for over
a decade now ( at least) .  My understanding is that a
System is built (and maintained) by the people.  Do
you think that there are some Genetic problems with
Indians that they promote a bad system ?

--- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Who do you think is working on building Dams,
 Skyscrappers, Power Plants etc in India ?  Who do
 you
 think is teaching in IIT's producing Engineers like
 you (I am assuming you consider yourself to be
 Creative)
 Who do you think has automated the banking system
 in
 Indian Banks, many of which now offer services
 better
 then US banks?
 Who do you think automated the operations in Indian
 Stock Exchange which now operates in a T+2 mode
 (against T+3 in US)?
 How do you think India has advanced over past
 several
 years without Creative Contributions from Indian
 Engineers?
 
 
 
 *** What were the ingenuity or creative aspects of
 these so called

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-08 Thread cmahanta

At 5:20 PM -0700 8/6/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:
Hi C'da

Let me first say --- I am not a Architect/Strcutural
Engineer or Civil Engineer  so pardon my ignorance
in this field


*** That is not something to apologize for.  However some of the issues I have 
been speaking about are fundamental to all engineering fields. That is why I am 
more than a bit surprised by your unfamiliarity. It goes to show that even an 
IIT software engineering graduate( that is only an educated guess) like 
yourself are quite oblivious of what other engineers do or are expected to be 
able to do, in the Indian context and not necessarily for exporting them to 
serve the needs of developed countries. 

That brings us back to your questions and responses. They are all over the 
place, and while I can and would be pleased to respond them, it would be far 
better to first pin down WHAT exactly it is that you are trying to prove or 
disprove with your inquisition.

I realize you disagree with some of what I wrote. But it also musty have caused 
you concern that the gullible or the uninformed may believe what I wrote. Thus 
your attempts to set the record straight, if not redeem Indian honors in areas 
that you must consider sullied by my observations. Question is WHAT are those 
areas ?

I will respond to them once you pin them down.

Take care.









Coming to your points ---

   Did *I* make those assertions about the
 qualifications or even implied them about who
   might have designed the bridge, or how good they
 were in math? How do you know who
   designed it? What if it was designed by some very
 creative East Pakistani structural engineer
   trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who
 developed the structural system for the
   Sears Towers? What then?


-  Thanks for admiting that East Pakistani
Engineers too can be CREATIVE  I guess you will
have similar view on Indian Engineers as well who did
not move out of India but contributing in India.


If this Engineer was Bright and Creative Engineer
educated in India your earlier assertion that Indian
education does not encourage Creativity is incorrect,
If this Engineer was not bright and creative your
land of checks and balances  still lacks some checks
 right?

 I thought you are an engineer. But  from the
 comments you make and the questions you ask, I must
 have been wrong.  Anyway, a bridge's integrity is
 not the function of just its design alone. The math
 skills of the designer hardly enter the equation.
 Most structural elements fail not because of design,
 but
 for a variety of other factors, most notably due to
 poor construction practices , which is a result of
 incompetent management, human failures, sometimes
 corruption--as in India,

1)  So Checks and Balances does not help ??  I thought
poor construction practices, incompetent management
etc are ALL just Indian characteristics. 

2) Corruption DOES NOT happen only in India but here
in your adopted homeland too.  Big Dig issue happened
because of Corruption and not human failure(your
information is incorrect
at best or twisted at worst).   And BTW,  in Big Dig
too only  a couple of mid level managers have been
convicted while the big shots went scott free  how
very Indian !!


Whoever was overseeing the
 logistics of the material delivery either did not
 have any knowledge of structures and load bearing
 capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.


So,  the bright young Grads did not have knowledge
...what am I missing ... where are your checks and
balances

 The point I am trying to make here is that DESIGN is
 only a small factor in these cases. At any event,
 MOST structural design is not a result of creative
 engineering: they are dictated by standards and
 codes
 and budgets. Most day-to-day structural engineering
 in the USA is done not by highly skilled engineers,
 but by 'designers', who are vocational tech. school
 graduates with high school degrees,

It was you who mentioned that Creative American
Engineers contribute to Nation Building and Indian
Engineers have zero contribution in Nation Building.

By Nation Building , I thought building infrastructure
which includes Bridges, Roads, Power Plants etc.  Let
me know what exactly you mean by Nation Building.
Do you mean that these structural engineers who are
vocational tech school graduates are incompetent or
not Bright and Creative enough ??


 *** Can these be compared? Not if anyone is even
 remotely familiar with the issues. An Indian
 structural engineer could be a math genius and could
 mentally analyze the stress of a rocket ships nose
 cone at re-entry. But its usefulness in the Indian
 context is zip, zero, nada.

Was it you or some American Engineer who built the
Bridges and skyscrappers in India ?  Sorry did not
know that ..

But anyway  I can say from my field.  I am working for
a 100% Indian IT company and our company has a Banking
Software which is Number 1 Banking Software

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-08 Thread Krishnendu Chakraborty

 *** That is not something to apologize for.  However
 some of the issues I have been speaking about are
 fundamental to all engineering fields. That is why I
 am more than a bit surprised by your unfamiliarity.
 It goes to show that even an IIT software
 engineering graduate( that is only an educated
 guess) like yourself are quite oblivious of what
 other engineers do or are expected to be able to do,
 in the Indian context and not necessarily for
 exporting them to serve the needs of developed
 countries. 

--  Your Educated guess did not click . forget
about IIT,  strictly speaking,  I am not at all a
engineer  did my B Sc from Cotton and MCA from AEC
and somehow managed a fairly decent job and surviving
.. just another susuri musuri pass kora case.  

However, I do not think it takes an engineer to
understand that a bridge might collapse for n - number
of reasons including design, poor construction, poor
management etc.  
BUT  the point is with Creative Bright Engineers and
all the Checks and Balances that you never stop
talking about  none of these failures should ideally
happen.  Since the bridge has collapsed , either the
engineers are NOT Bright enough OR there are some
holes in your checks  balances. Do you think there
are other possible reasons?

I am not sure if IIT Engineers are Expected to Design
a Bamboo Bridge and who set those expectations. 
Unfortunately, India does not run on expectations set
by you. As I mentioned earlier,  you have NO knowledge
on today's India. Because these Engineers did not
listen to your suggestions, the Indian GDP is
improving leaps and bounds.
Santanu-da can probably explain why the US Dollar is
sharply getting devalued against Indian Rupee.

 That brings us back to your questions and responses.
 They are all over the place, and while I can and
 would be pleased to respond them, it would be far
 better to first pin down WHAT exactly it is that you
 are trying to prove or disprove with your
 inquisition.
 
 I realize you disagree with some of what I wrote.
 But it also musty have caused you concern that the
 gullible or the uninformed may believe what I wrote.
 Thus your attempts to set the record straight, if
 not redeem Indian honors in areas that you must
 consider sullied by my observations. Question is
 WHAT are those areas ?

Looks like you want to avoid answering these since
then you might have to eat up some of your words on
Indian Engineers. I would not insist you to answer
these.

First,  I have ABSOLUTELY NO concern that the
gullible or the uninformed may believe what you wrote
  you know it very well that you have no takers in
AssamNet.

Regarding those areas  just wanted to see your views
on HOW such disasters can happen in a country which
produces ALL Creative Engineers (however at least one
creative engineer that I know was imported from India)
and which boasts of Checks and Balances 





--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 At 5:20 PM -0700 8/6/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty
 wrote:
 Hi C'da
 
 Let me first say --- I am not a
 Architect/Strcutural
 Engineer or Civil Engineer  so pardon my
 ignorance
 in this field
 
 
 *** That is not something to apologize for.  However
 some of the issues I have been speaking about are
 fundamental to all engineering fields. That is why I
 am more than a bit surprised by your unfamiliarity.
 It goes to show that even an IIT software
 engineering graduate( that is only an educated
 guess) like yourself are quite oblivious of what
 other engineers do or are expected to be able to do,
 in the Indian context and not necessarily for
 exporting them to serve the needs of developed
 countries. 
 
 That brings us back to your questions and responses.
 They are all over the place, and while I can and
 would be pleased to respond them, it would be far
 better to first pin down WHAT exactly it is that you
 are trying to prove or disprove with your
 inquisition.
 
 I realize you disagree with some of what I wrote.
 But it also musty have caused you concern that the
 gullible or the uninformed may believe what I wrote.
 Thus your attempts to set the record straight, if
 not redeem Indian honors in areas that you must
 consider sullied by my observations. Question is
 WHAT are those areas ?
 
 I will respond to them once you pin them down.
 
 Take care.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Coming to your points ---
 
  Did *I* make those assertions about the
  qualifications or even implied them about who
  might have designed the bridge, or how good they
  were in math? How do you know who
  designed it? What if it was designed by some very
  creative East Pakistani structural engineer
  trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who
  developed the structural system for the
  Sears Towers? What then?
 
 
 -  Thanks for admiting that East Pakistani
 Engineers too can be CREATIVE  I guess you will
 have similar view on Indian Engineers as well who
 did
 not move out of India but contributing in India.

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-08 Thread mc mahant


This is what a Mech,Engineer from Mass blogged in a CR4  Bridge Collapse blog:








Posts: 32

#54
 Re: Bridge collapse 
08/06/2007 8:15 PM 



One comment I haven't heard or seen yet. 
Did the people who designed the bridge have a crystal ball to tell them that 
the politicians would take huge political donations (the political correct term 
for bribes and kickbacks) from the trucking companies and teamsters to lift the 
limits on what the weight limits for trucks can carry? I haven't checked on the 
real numbers yet but I know the limits are way up from the time when this 
bridge would have been designed.
The bridge problem is the same as the war problem - The PROFESSIONAL 
POLITICIANS.
DON'T RE-ELECT ANYONE. ONE TERM IN A NATIONAL OFFICE.
__No matter how much you knowGod knows more 

 
From Media Pictures  it looks like an ON-the-go Concrete mixer--easily 50 Ton 
Gross weight -at middle of the span!!
mm


 Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 06:51:28 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED]; assam@assamnet.org Subject: Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis 
 Collapse  At 5:20 PM -0700 8/6/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote: Hi C'da 
  Let me first say --- I am not a Architect/Strcutural Engineer or Civil 
 Engineer  so pardon my ignorance in this field   *** That is not 
 something to apologize for. However some of the issues I have been speaking 
 about are fundamental to all engineering fields. That is why I am more than a 
 bit surprised by your unfamiliarity. It goes to show that even an IIT 
 software engineering graduate( that is only an educated guess) like yourself 
 are quite oblivious of what other engineers do or are expected to be able to 
 do, in the Indian context and not necessarily for exporting them to serve the 
 needs of developed countries.   That brings us back to your questions and 
 responses. They are all over the place, and while I can and would be pleased 
 to respond them, it would be far better to first pin down WHAT exactly it is 
 that you are trying to prove or disprove with your inquisition.  I realize 
 you disagree with some of what I wrote. But it also musty have caused you 
 concern that the gullible or the uninformed may believe what I wrote. Thus 
 your attempts to set the record straight, if not redeem Indian honors in 
 areas that you must consider sullied by my observations. Question is WHAT are 
 those areas ?  I will respond to them once you pin them down.  Take 
 care.  Coming to your points ---   Did *I* make those 
 assertions about the  qualifications or even implied them about who  
 might have designed the bridge, or how good they  were in math? How do you 
 know who  designed it? What if it was designed by some very  creative 
 East Pakistani structural engineer  trained at BE college, like Fazlur 
 Khan, who  developed the structural system for the  Sears Towers? What 
 then?   - Thanks for admiting that East Pakistani Engineers too can 
 be CREATIVE  I guess you will have similar view on Indian Engineers as 
 well who did not move out of India but contributing in India.   If this 
 Engineer was Bright and Creative Engineer educated in India your earlier 
 assertion that Indian education does not encourage Creativity is incorrect, 
 If this Engineer was not bright and creative your land of checks and 
 balances still lacks some checks  right?   I thought you are an 
 engineer. But from the  comments you make and the questions you ask, I 
 must  have been wrong. Anyway, a bridge's integrity is  not the function 
 of just its design alone. The math  skills of the designer hardly enter the 
 equation.  Most structural elements fail not because of design,  but  
 for a variety of other factors, most notably due to  poor construction 
 practices , which is a result of  incompetent management, human failures, 
 sometimes  corruption--as in India,  1) So Checks and Balances does not 
 help ?? I thought poor construction practices, incompetent management etc 
 are ALL just Indian characteristics.   2) Corruption DOES NOT happen only 
 in India but here in your adopted homeland too. Big Dig issue happened 
 because of Corruption and not human failure(your information is incorrect 
 at best or twisted at worst). And BTW, in Big Dig too only a couple of mid 
 level managers have been convicted while the big shots went scott free  
 how very Indian !!   Whoever was overseeing the  logistics of the 
 material delivery either did not  have any knowledge of structures and load 
 bearing  capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.   So, the 
 bright young Grads did not have knowledge ...what am I missing ... where are 
 your checks and balances   The point I am trying to make here is that 
 DESIGN is  only a small factor in these cases. At any event,  MOST

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-08 Thread umesh sharma

C-da,

This piece by you  seemed educative to a lay person like me (who has plenty of 
structural/civil engineers and architects make egregious blunders -  the 
building of  Jaipur School has somewhat rhombus shape rather than original 
rectangular shape and even shifted the foundations a bit off - leading to 
renewed repairs and buttressing -- that under the overseeing of top architects 
and engineers in the city -atleast most people thought so)
Umesh

***

 Hi K:


 C'da your comments on this will be highly
 appreciated
 --- first because it was designed by some Very
 Bright
 and Very Creative American Engineer whose Math
 foundation is very strong (unlike some Desi idiot)


 *** I was hoping to be able to answer your question
 intelligently. But the premise of your questions
 left me completely bewildered.

   Did *I* make those assertions about the
 qualifications or even implied them about who
   might have designed the bridge, or how good they
 were in math? How do you know who
   designed it? What if it was designed by some very
 creative East Pakistani structural engineer
   trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who
 developed the structural system for the
   Sears Towers? What then?

 I thought you are an engineer. But  from the
 comments you make and the questions you ask, I must
 have been wrong.  Anyway, a bridge's integrity is
 not the function of just its design alone. The math
 skills of the designer hardly enter the equation.
 Most structural elements fail not because of design,
 but
 for a variety of other factors, most notably due to
 poor construction practices , which is a result of
 incompetent management, human failures, sometimes
 corruption--as in India, and sometimes just because
 of the laws of probability playing out: if something
 could go wrong, it would, sooner or later.

 The Boston Tunnel concrete panel failures were
 determined to be a result of using quick-setting
 epoxy bolts, instead of the specified standard
 setting epoxy, which develop their full strength
 slowly, over about 48 hours, but remain strong
 thereafter. On the other hand the quick setting
 epoxy develops strength within minutes, but do not
 retain it over time. Investigators found, that the
 right material was ordered by the installers, but
 was furnished the wrong product by the supplier . It
 appears as though someone in the shipping warehouse
 packed the wrong stuff.  Here it is a case of a
 human failure, that no amount engineering acumen or
 management expertise could have prevented.

 The Minneapolis failure seems to have been
 precipitated by huge amounts of dead weight piled on
 the bridge deck from rock sent for the repairs. This
 is a management failure.  Whoever was overseeing the
 logistics of the material delivery either did not
 have any knowledge of structures and load bearing
 capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.

 There could be other factors: Such as non-inclusion
 of the redundancy principle of design. This was a
 political issue, of managing the cost and funding.
 Or defective welding. Fifty years back welding
 technology was not as sophisticated as it is today.
 Today we have ultrasonic testing done, before
 welded structural members of critical components. In
 my last major project, I had to reject a number of
 large span bowstring trusses, which were shop
 welded, but installed without ultrasonic testing.
 The installers installed the trusses, but when asked
 for certificates of testing, could not produce them.
 On site testing showed that a number of joints were
 unacceptable. The result was a very expensive on
 site correction of the joints that cost the steel
 fabricators big time. By the end of the job, the
 fabricator was going out of business. Apparently it
 had other problems elsewhere as well. They got our
 job, because they were the lowest bidders, and not
 necessarily because they were also good fabricators.
 The public bidding requirements in this case was a
 contributing factor-- by allowing a fabricator of
 questionable skills or management abilities to get
 the work.

 The point I am trying to make here is that DESIGN is
 only a small factor in these cases. At any event,
 MOST structural design is not a result of creative
 engineering: they are dictated by standards and
 codes
 and budgets. Most day-to-day structural engineering
 in the USA is done not by highly skilled engineers,
 but by 'designers', who are vocational tech. school
 graduates with high school degrees, who are familiar
 with codes and standards and know how to look up
 standard tables and size structural elements.

 Us vs India:

 *** Can these be compared? Not if anyone is even
 remotely familiar with the issues. An Indian
 structural engineer could be a math genius and could
 mentally analyze the stress of a rocket ships nose
 cone at re-entry. But its usefulness in the Indian
 context is zip, zero, nada.

 An IIT PhD in structural engineering  could design
 US

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-06 Thread cmahanta

Hi K:


C'da your comments on this will be highly appreciated
--- first because it was designed by some Very Bright
and Very Creative American Engineer whose Math
foundation is very strong (unlike some Desi idiot)


*** I was hoping to be able to answer your question intelligently. But the 
premise of your questions left me completely bewildered.

Did *I* make those assertions about the qualifications or even implied 
them about who
might have designed the bridge, or how good they were in math? How do 
you know who
designed it? What if it was designed by some very creative East 
Pakistani structural engineer
trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who developed the structural 
system for the
Sears Towers? What then?

I thought you are an engineer. But  from the comments you make and the 
questions you ask, I must have been wrong.  Anyway, a bridge's integrity is not 
the function of just its design alone. The math skills of the designer hardly 
enter the equation.  Most structural elements fail not because of design, but
for a variety of other factors, most notably due to poor construction practices 
, which is a result of incompetent management, human failures, sometimes 
corruption--as in India, and sometimes just because of the laws of probability 
playing out: if something could go wrong, it would, sooner or later.

The Boston Tunnel concrete panel failures were  determined to be a result of 
using quick-setting epoxy bolts, instead of the specified standard setting 
epoxy, which develop their full strength slowly, over about 48 hours, but 
remain strong thereafter. On the other hand the quick setting epoxy develops 
strength within minutes, but do not retain it over time. Investigators found, 
that the right material was ordered by the installers, but was furnished the 
wrong product by the supplier . It appears as though someone in the shipping 
warehouse packed the wrong stuff.  Here it is a case of a human failure, that 
no amount engineering acumen or management expertise could have prevented.

The Minneapolis failure seems to have been precipitated by huge amounts of dead 
weight piled on the bridge deck from rock sent for the repairs. This is a 
management failure.  Whoever was overseeing the
logistics of the material delivery either did not have any knowledge of 
structures and load bearing capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.

There could be other factors: Such as non-inclusion of the redundancy principle 
of design. This was a political issue, of managing the cost and funding.  Or 
defective welding. Fifty years back welding technology was not as sophisticated 
as it is today. Today we have ultrasonic testing done, before
welded structural members of critical components. In my last major project, I 
had to reject a number of large span bowstring trusses, which were shop welded, 
but installed without ultrasonic testing.  The installers installed the 
trusses, but when asked for certificates of testing, could not produce them. On 
site testing showed that a number of joints were unacceptable. The result was a 
very expensive on site correction of the joints that cost the steel fabricators 
big time. By the end of the job, the fabricator was going out of business. 
Apparently it had other problems elsewhere as well. They got our job, because 
they were the lowest bidders, and not necessarily because they were also good 
fabricators. The public bidding requirements in this case was a contributing 
factor-- by allowing a fabricator of questionable skills or management 
abilities to get the work.

The point I am trying to make here is that DESIGN is only a small factor in 
these cases. At any event, MOST structural design is not a result of creative 
engineering: they are dictated by standards and codes
and budgets. Most day-to-day structural engineering in the USA is done not by 
highly skilled engineers, but by 'designers', who are vocational tech. school 
graduates with high school degrees, who are familiar with codes and standards 
and know how to look up standard tables and size structural elements.

Us vs India:

*** Can these be compared? Not if anyone is even remotely familiar with the 
issues. An Indian structural engineer could be a math genius and could mentally 
analyze the stress of a rocket ships nose cone at re-entry. But its usefulness 
in the Indian context is zip, zero, nada.

An IIT PhD in structural engineering  could design US skyscrapers with ease, 
but won't be able to design a temporary bridge using bamboo and timber if their 
life depended on it. Why? Because the building materials, their quality 
standards and installed elements' quality can be and are tested and trustworthy 
in the USA. But the quality of a welded joint or the strength of on-site, 
hand-mixed batches of concrete  in India cannot be.  So this engineering whiz 
from IIT will be stumped, wouldn't know what to do.  The experienced but 
uneducated

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-06 Thread Krishnendu Chakraborty

Hi C'da

Let me first say --- I am not a Architect/Strcutural
Engineer or Civil Engineer  so pardon my ignorance
in this field

Coming to your points ---

   Did *I* make those assertions about the
 qualifications or even implied them about who
   might have designed the bridge, or how good they
 were in math? How do you know who
   designed it? What if it was designed by some very
 creative East Pakistani structural engineer
   trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who
 developed the structural system for the
   Sears Towers? What then?


-  Thanks for admiting that East Pakistani
Engineers too can be CREATIVE  I guess you will
have similar view on Indian Engineers as well who did
not move out of India but contributing in India.


If this Engineer was Bright and Creative Engineer
educated in India your earlier assertion that Indian
education does not encourage Creativity is incorrect,
If this Engineer was not bright and creative your
land of checks and balances  still lacks some checks
 right?

 I thought you are an engineer. But  from the
 comments you make and the questions you ask, I must
 have been wrong.  Anyway, a bridge's integrity is
 not the function of just its design alone. The math
 skills of the designer hardly enter the equation. 
 Most structural elements fail not because of design,
 but
 for a variety of other factors, most notably due to
 poor construction practices , which is a result of
 incompetent management, human failures, sometimes
 corruption--as in India,

1)  So Checks and Balances does not help ??  I thought
poor construction practices, incompetent management
etc are ALL just Indian characteristics.  

2) Corruption DOES NOT happen only in India but here
in your adopted homeland too.  Big Dig issue happened
because of Corruption and not human failure(your
information is incorrect 
at best or twisted at worst).   And BTW,  in Big Dig
too only  a couple of mid level managers have been
convicted while the big shots went scott free  how
very Indian !!


Whoever was overseeing the
 logistics of the material delivery either did not
 have any knowledge of structures and load bearing
 capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.


So,  the bright young Grads did not have knowledge
...what am I missing ... where are your checks and
balances

 The point I am trying to make here is that DESIGN is
 only a small factor in these cases. At any event,
 MOST structural design is not a result of creative
 engineering: they are dictated by standards and
 codes
 and budgets. Most day-to-day structural engineering
 in the USA is done not by highly skilled engineers,
 but by 'designers', who are vocational tech. school
 graduates with high school degrees,

It was you who mentioned that Creative American
Engineers contribute to Nation Building and Indian
Engineers have zero contribution in Nation Building.

By Nation Building , I thought building infrastructure
which includes Bridges, Roads, Power Plants etc.  Let
me know what exactly you mean by Nation Building.
Do you mean that these structural engineers who are
vocational tech school graduates are incompetent or
not Bright and Creative enough ??


 *** Can these be compared? Not if anyone is even
 remotely familiar with the issues. An Indian
 structural engineer could be a math genius and could
 mentally analyze the stress of a rocket ships nose
 cone at re-entry. But its usefulness in the Indian
 context is zip, zero, nada.

Was it you or some American Engineer who built the
Bridges and skyscrappers in India ?  Sorry did not
know that .. 

But anyway  I can say from my field.  I am working for
a 100% Indian IT company and our company has a Banking
Software which is Number 1 Banking Software in World
for 4 consecutive years . and all these developed
by not so creative  Indian Engineers. I can vouch
that we did not take help from Chandan Mahanta or some
Bright Creative American Engineer.

 An IIT PhD in structural engineering  could design
 US skyscrapers with ease, but won't be able to
 design a temporary bridge using bamboo and timber if
 their life depended on it. Why? Because the building
 materials, their quality standards and installed
 elements' quality can be and are tested and
 trustworthy in the USA. But the quality of 

An IIT PhD can (and I am sure has)  also designed
Indian Skyscrapers and Bridges which does not collapse
in less then 50 years.
Coming to the point of Bamboo bridge etc,  can a MIT
electronic Engineer fix a TV set or Radio ?
No .. Every training/teaching has its boundaries. 

In US (also in India),  every company, even in IT
sector has something called HelpDesk which helps them
in setting up PC, installing software, networking etc.
 Most of these people are diploma engineers.  Why do
you think the Bright Creative Engineers cannot setup
their own PC, install their own software or setup
their network?  

 *** Again, there is no way to compare this for India
 vs

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-06 Thread mc mahant


Unfortunately, I could not find any Indian bridge which had such catastrophic 
collapse in less then 50 years of building. Probably you can help.
 
You smug  Indian IT whizkid--. 
I can help you judge your beloved India's structural genius!

Come to Mangaldoi:  The  RCC Bridge at the entry to town on the National 
Highway collapsed in 1984-in 1 hour after opening to traffic with much 
fanfare.span =50m!Till today  that crossing (National Highway) is on shaky 
latticework Army Engineers Make/Shift  ( Bailley) Bridge.[Designed by Delhi's 
NH authority.
Come to Nam-Roop: The 100m span (first ever RCC)bridge on  vital Dhwodor Aali 
was opened  in 1980. West piers started settling soon. By 2000 they had to stop 
for Urgent Repairs. They brought another Bailley Bridge and placed on the 
Sinking RCC Br. This went on till 2 months back.Now there is  crisis : how to 
take out the Bailley-because the RCC main is sinking -unable to support the 
Bailley!! Of course ther is 0 traffic on this vital route. Newspapers are told 
not to print any article/Photo of this National Shame.
Come to Roha -on the Main NH37 RCC collapsed in 2004 Was opened in 1990.
Come to Hajo main road AmingaonBarpeta. RCC bridge collapsed 1 month after 
opening in 2001

 
List is very Long.
 List is Painful burdenfor the Assamese Nation.
The (Able,ExaPerienced,Authorized )Delhi-Designed -6 so far- Guwahati 
Flyovers could have been  at 20% cost/time-had I designed/built them!
I have a feeling you learnt nothing of Engineering.
mm
 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 17:20:23 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED]; assam@assamnet.org Subject: Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis 
 Collapse  Hi C'da  Let me first say --- I am not a Architect/Strcutural 
 Engineer or Civil Engineer  so pardon my ignorance in this field  
 Coming to your points ---   Did *I* make those assertions about the  
 qualifications or even implied them about who  might have designed the 
 bridge, or how good they  were in math? How do you know who  designed it? 
 What if it was designed by some very  creative East Pakistani structural 
 engineer  trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan, who  developed the 
 structural system for the  Sears Towers? What then?   - Thanks for 
 admiting that East Pakistani Engineers too can be CREATIVE  I guess you 
 will have similar view on Indian Engineers as well who did not move out of 
 India but contributing in India.   If this Engineer was Bright and 
 Creative Engineer educated in India your earlier assertion that Indian 
 education does not encourage Creativity is incorrect, If this Engineer was 
 not bright and creative your land of checks and balances still lacks 
 some checks  right?   I thought you are an engineer. But from the  
 comments you make and the questions you ask, I must  have been wrong. 
 Anyway, a bridge's integrity is  not the function of just its design alone. 
 The math  skills of the designer hardly enter the equation.   Most 
 structural elements fail not because of design,  but  for a variety of 
 other factors, most notably due to  poor construction practices , which is 
 a result of  incompetent management, human failures, sometimes  
 corruption--as in India,  1) So Checks and Balances does not help ?? I 
 thought poor construction practices, incompetent management etc are ALL 
 just Indian characteristics.   2) Corruption DOES NOT happen only in India 
 but here in your adopted homeland too. Big Dig issue happened because of 
 Corruption and not human failure(your information is incorrect  at best or 
 twisted at worst). And BTW, in Big Dig too only a couple of mid level 
 managers have been convicted while the big shots went scott free  how 
 very Indian !!   Whoever was overseeing the  logistics of the material 
 delivery either did not  have any knowledge of structures and load bearing 
  capacity of a structure or was asleep at the wheel.   So, the bright 
 young Grads did not have knowledge ...what am I missing ... where are your 
 checks and balances   The point I am trying to make here is that DESIGN 
 is  only a small factor in these cases. At any event,  MOST structural 
 design is not a result of creative  engineering: they are dictated by 
 standards and  codes  and budgets. Most day-to-day structural 
 engineering  in the USA is done not by highly skilled engineers,  but by 
 'designers', who are vocational tech. school  graduates with high school 
 degrees,  It was you who mentioned that Creative American Engineers 
 contribute to Nation Building and Indian Engineers have zero contribution in 
 Nation Building.  By Nation Building , I thought building infrastructure 
 which includes Bridges, Roads, Power Plants etc. Let me know what exactly 
 you mean by Nation Building. Do you mean that these structural engineers who 
 are vocational tech school graduates are incompetent or not Bright and 
 Creative enough ??*** Can these be compared? Not if anyone is even  
 remotely

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-06 Thread Krishnendu Chakraborty

I suspected earlier when you criticized  Dr Pachuari 
and now I am confirmed .  you have a big j factor
coming out of your own failure 

Sorry but I thought you are a IIT grad   and I am sure
you can come over your j factor pretty soon.

BTW,  it would help us a lot if you point to your
sources regarding these bridges  and I would be
equally interested to know which MAJOR bridges has
collapsed in India.  At this point, I am asking for
MAJOR bridge because you need to compare apples to
apples

 The (Able,ExaPerienced,Authorized )Delhi-Designed
 -6 so far- Guwahati Flyovers could have been  at 20%
 cost/time-had I designed/built them!

Smelling a lot of hollow superiority complex !!! We
have heard such things from you earlier too . but
I wonder why everytime you end up being a loser !

Not sure who/why you were not allowed to build it.  We
heard that at least one fly over (the Ulubari one) was
built by an Assam based company  (BTW it also took a
l-o-n-g time compared to Ganeshguri flyover which was
done by LnT).
Sorry can't help if you do not have the ability to
convince people about your capability.   Probably your
Engineering knowledge is half baked or may be you
spent more time bashing India then mastering your own
field.


We would be eager to know some of your Creative works
and contributions to Assam.  At least it would give us
some peace of mind that there is one Creative and able
Engineer in Assam who Can do a Nation Building once
Assame is Independent.  The only other Creative
Engineer of India/Assam (CM) is comfortably settled in
St Louise!




--- mc mahant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Unfortunately, I could not find any Indian bridge
 which had such catastrophic collapse in less then
 50 years of building. Probably you can help.
  
 You smug  Indian IT whizkid--. 
 I can help you judge your beloved India's structural
 genius!
 
 Come to Mangaldoi:  The  RCC Bridge at the entry to
 town on the National Highway collapsed in 1984-in 1
 hour after opening to traffic with much fanfare.span
 =50m!Till today  that crossing (National Highway) is
 on shaky latticework Army Engineers Make/Shift  (
 Bailley) Bridge.[Designed by Delhi's NH authority.
 Come to Nam-Roop: The 100m span (first ever
 RCC)bridge on  vital Dhwodor Aali was opened  in
 1980. West piers started settling soon. By 2000 they
 had to stop for Urgent Repairs. They brought another
 Bailley Bridge and placed on the Sinking RCC Br.
 This went on till 2 months back.Now there is  crisis
 : how to take out the Bailley-because the RCC main
 is sinking -unable to support the Bailley!! Of
 course ther is 0 traffic on this vital route.
 Newspapers are told not to print any article/Photo
 of this National Shame.
 Come to Roha -on the Main NH37 RCC collapsed in 2004
 Was opened in 1990.
 Come to Hajo main road AmingaonBarpeta. RCC bridge
 collapsed 1 month after opening in 2001
 
  
 List is very Long.
  List is Painful burdenfor the Assamese Nation.
 The (Able,ExaPerienced,Authorized )Delhi-Designed
 -6 so far- Guwahati Flyovers could have been  at 20%
 cost/time-had I designed/built them!
 I have a feeling you learnt nothing of Engineering.
 mm
  Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 17:20:23 -0700 From:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 assam@assamnet.org Subject: Re: [Assam] More on
 Minneapolis Collapse  Hi C'da  Let me first say
 --- I am not a Architect/Strcutural Engineer or
 Civil Engineer  so pardon my ignorance in this
 field  Coming to your points ---   Did *I* make
 those assertions about the  qualifications or even
 implied them about who  might have designed the
 bridge, or how good they  were in math? How do you
 know who  designed it? What if it was designed by
 some very  creative East Pakistani structural
 engineer  trained at BE college, like Fazlur Khan,
 who  developed the structural system for the 
 Sears Towers? What then?   - Thanks for
 admiting that East Pakistani Engineers too can be
 CREATIVE  I guess you will have similar view on
 Indian Engineers as well who did not move out of
 India but contributing in India.   If this
 Engineer was Bright and Creative Engineer
 educated in India your earlier assertion that
 Indian education does not encourage Creativity is
 incorrect, If this Engineer was not bright and
 creative your land of checks and balances still
 lacks some checks  right?   I thought you
 are an engineer. But from the  comments you make
 and the questions you ask, I must  have been
 wrong. Anyway, a bridge's integrity is  not the
 function of just its design alone. The math 
 skills of the designer hardly enter the equation. 
  Most structural elements fail not because of
 design,  but  for a variety of other factors,
 most notably due to  poor construction practices ,
 which is a result of  incompetent management,
 human failures, sometimes  corruption--as in
 India,  1) So Checks and Balances does not help ??
 I thought poor construction practices, incompetent
 management etc are ALL just

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-05 Thread mc mahant


Can Yours Truly add on?
Saw this in a blog at CR4 site I comment in:
__
And in that vein, I was talking to a compatriot the other day, and the topic 
of the 60's generation came up - it seems the same level of mistrust of 
government and general rebelliousness is still alive and well in the hearts of 
the baby boomers but the difference is now we're old and generally have more 
money than we did back then. Perhaps, it was suggested, we could finance our 
own revolution, outsource an army (since ours is busy every where else right 
now)to take back the government from the special interest groups, kick the 
parasites, demagogues, and criminals out of Washington, DC, and return our 
government to what it was originally meant to be. Something to ponder. Of 
course in this day and age it could get you rendered to a foreign country and 
tortured so if there are any HS agents out there watching this forum, it was 
all in jest and simply amounted to the ramblings of the pre-Alzhimers coalition 
over cups of weak coffee. If I were in S. Spain I'd be right there with you at 
Harley Dees - if you're ever in the US, the S. US give me a yell and we can get 
together.
 That's what I told MMS Liberate us-and We liberate you
 
And Yours Truly posted earlier thus:





MUKULMAHANT
Power-User
 
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long.92E,Lat.26N
Posts: 456

#17
 Re: Bridge collapse 
08/05/2007 10:59 AM 



avoidable disaster -- you said it all.
GWB will now visit the site and tell them Do it again-we will foot the bill.
I am sure nobody will tell him Not like the one which fell--but like the one 
by the side which did not(The one standing is Arch Below with Spandrels)
Look at  reliable bridges of Yore--all Arches.
Look at what France does since high-strength wires came up :
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct
I saw in Shanghai a Steel TopArch Bridge with span 500m 
The one that fell in Minneapolis was 100m!
In India ,Arch Bridges are almost Unknown.The never taught us arch designs.
 Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:01:46 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  All I ask 
 is WHAT exactly were you and your cheering  section, ably   led by 
 Krishendu, trying to prove or disprove ?  Once I get a bearing   on that, 
 I will be pleased to share my thoughts.Take care.c-da
   
_
Sign in and get updated with all the action!
http://content.msn.co.in/Sports/FormulaOne/Default___
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-05 Thread mc mahant

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-05 Thread umesh sharma

I saw on CNN that 17% of US bridges are not safe

Umesh

mc mahant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } more from that Pandora's box:
__
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 48

#26

Re: Bridge collapse 08/05/2007 8:01 PM
It is unfortunate that this post duplicates a similar post under Civil
Engineering:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/10774/Could-bridge-collapse-be-prevented?frmtrk=CR4digest
I repeat my post from that thread:
There are many reasons why bridges collapse. They mostly fall into two major
categories: (1) compromised maintenance, (2) unanticipated features of a new
design concept.
The history channel has prepared an excellent non-technical review of the
recent history of bridge collapses
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Genericcontent_type_id=55377mini_id=1335
Regarding the second: It is hard to argue against new designs, but since much
of the concept polish in engineering is based on lessons learned (from
disasters), we should at the very least recognize that there is significant
inherent risk coupled with every departure from the tried and true. New
concepts are thoroughly investigated by a modeling, but the models only
evaluate the problems which we can think of, and often they cheat by adding
complexity (tweakable knobs) so that modelers can tune their models to
compensate for things that they cannot resolve intellectually. This subject is
treated at length in an excellent book: The Future of Everything: The Science
of Prediction by David Orrell
As to the first: A call to action was issued following the collapse of the
Silver Bridge over the Ohio River in 1967 citing to inattention that we pay to
our infrastructure. This call has been repeated after each ensuing collapse and
is soon forgotten. Politicians play to the whims of the voters, which they
skillfully manipulate. Politicians readily decide to spend a trillion dollars
on a ill advised war, but can never find funding for basic human needs
(education, health care, infrastructure, etc.). It's not their fault: we
(re)elect them and put up with their fanciful tirades.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the
average voter - Winston Churchill

__
Honesty trumps Loyalty
[input] [input]
Cardio-2
Associate

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 37

#29

Re: Bridge collapse 08/05/2007 9:54 PM
You make a good point, but your figure of $ 2 billion a week needs some
adjustment. How much gasoline, diesel and jet fuel does the services consume in
a week? Where does that money go? Mostly to OPEC nations for oil at $60 to
$75 a bbl. How much of these fuels can be made from a bbl of crude? How much
aid, in many forms, do OPEC nations contribute to the enemy in Iraq and
Afghanistan? How much of that is paid for with our oil money to OPEC nations?
How many terrorists does Saudi, Iran, Syria, et al train, equip and support?
Are we accomplishing any good in Iraq? Is Iraq any better off now that it was
20 years ago under a dictator? How many lives of US service personal is that
accomplishment worth? What price does one put on a young, vibrant human life? I
submit that we need to increase the numbers of the actual cost of the war in
Iraq, plus the loss of that money as it contributes to the downside of poor
educational reforms here in the US, poor health and
health insurance for the needy, attention to the infrastructure of roads,
bridges and railways, and so on. One can make quite a list! No politics
involved here, just facts. When will taxes begin to skyrocket to pay for all
the expenditures in Iraq, etc?

_
That shd be enough!
mm

-
The idiot box is no longer passe; It's making news and
how!___
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org

Umesh Sharma

Washington D.C.

1-202-215-4328 [Cell]

Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005

http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)

www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )

http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/

-
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.___
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse-- A Quick Primer

2007-08-03 Thread Chan Mahanta

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070803_BRIDGE_GRAPHIC.html#step1



This shows some possible problem sources.

I  am no structural engineer, but I know enough to be dangerous :-). 
If I had to bet on as single cause, it will be on  No: 6. And  if I 
were to second guess on judgement, it will be on  8. St. Louis has 12 
bridges on the Mississippi and the Missouri.  All of them have 
redundancy built in, to some extent.

There was a major bridge collapse on the Ohio river I believe , which 
also had no redundancy built in.

Why does anyone need redundancy?

Because these structures have many components and their integrity 
depends on many many factors. So one cannot put all the eggs in one 
basket, betting that everything would have been built as designed or 
wished. For that does not EVER happen.























At 4:01 PM -0700 8/2/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:
Bridge 'structurally deficient'

Engineers spotted structural problems in the bridge as
far back as 1990, but state officials thought patches
and yearly inspections would be enough to keep it
together, Minnesota's top bridge engineer said. This
year's inspection started in June and would have been
finished in September after $2.4 million worth of
maintenance on the deck, joints, guardrails and
lights.

---

C'da your comments on this will be highly appreciated
--- first because it was designed by some Very Bright
and Very Creative American Engineer whose Math
foundation is very strong (unlike some Desi idiot) and
second,  the chacks and balances  seems to have
failed  and third because it is your field of
expertise.






--- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  O' Ram:

  Hope your weekend is going well. We had a nice
  kharkhowa gathering,
  along with some  kolgutikhowas and even a couple of
  desuali  folks
  last evening. This has been the most pleasant of
  July weather I can
  recall in our 32 years in St. Louis. A light breeze
  carrying mist
  from the river kept us comfortable, the mosquitos
  were on vacation,
  the cicadas were noisy but our friends' conversation
  kept them at bay
  and my mango-margarita kept everyone mellower than
  the near
  full-moon's light under a clear sky, until we fared
  our friends well-
  in whose honor we hosted the gathering--on their
  impending
  trip to the desert of Rajasthan where he will be
  teaching business
  management as a Fullbright Scholar
  on sabbatical at Pilani and she will be there to
  keep him company.

  Anyway,  I read your thoughts here. As usual, no
  problems with your
  being a non-engineer. I am not one either. In IIT
  we, the
  architecture students, were laughed at by our
  engineering friends,
  because we did not use slide-rules, which was
  equivalent to looking
  down upon people who count with their fingertips,
  the lowest of the
  low-tech lot, a few notches below the
  logarithmatic-table users. We
  tried to turn the tables by laughing at their
  drawing skills. But
  they knew how to put us even further down: They told
  us that they
  will always have draftsmen ( I don't remember
  hearing of draftswomen)
  to do their dirty work, while we shall remain
  pencil-pushers for
  ever. That was really below the below the belt, and
  it hurt.

  Enough about my sad stories.

  On the fools'-rush front, I won't hold anyone guilty
  of crimes that I
  routinely commit. So rest easy there also.

  By now if you are beginning to fret about   all the
  nicey-nice leader
  to this response and wondering if I am about spring
  a tripper on you,
  relax there too. I don't have anything tricky up my
  sleeve this
  morning.

  All I ask is WHAT exactly were you and your cheering
  section, ably
  led by Krishendu,  trying to prove or disprove ?
  Once I get a bearing
  on that, I will be pleased to share my thoughts.

  Take care.

  c-da










  At 9:16 AM -0600 7/28/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
   C'da
  
  Being a non-engineer, and susori-musori pass kora
  individual, I may
  not be qualified to comment in this high-flying
  math/engg. debate -
  but nevertheless, I will try... you know, fools
  rush in where
  angels
  
  One, is it is generally recognized that Indian
  graduating from
  Indian schools are good in math/science. Not
  because they boast
  about it, but because they just are. There are
  extremely bright
  people there.
  Most of the people who have been a big success in
  this and other
  countries have had their fundas from India, and
  most Assamese from
  the Engg. colleges in Assam, and education in
  cotton or GU or DU.
  
  Second, you charge that because you don't see
  contributions from
  these people in India, then obviously these
  graduates are Not
  creative etc.
  
  It is possible that even though these Indians may
  be creative and
  intelligent, but may NOT be willing or are not able
  to contribute to
  societies they came from. Maybe, they came to the
  USA to make more
  money (read better opportunities).
  While,

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

2007-08-03 Thread Chan Mahanta

Hi K:

I am trying to meet a deadline before I  rush to the airport. Be out 
for about a week. Will get back to you as soon as I can.


c-da








At 4:01 PM -0700 8/2/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:
Bridge 'structurally deficient'

Engineers spotted structural problems in the bridge as
far back as 1990, but state officials thought patches
and yearly inspections would be enough to keep it
together, Minnesota's top bridge engineer said. This
year's inspection started in June and would have been
finished in September after $2.4 million worth of
maintenance on the deck, joints, guardrails and
lights.

---

C'da your comments on this will be highly appreciated
--- first because it was designed by some Very Bright
and Very Creative American Engineer whose Math
foundation is very strong (unlike some Desi idiot) and
second,  the chacks and balances  seems to have
failed  and third because it is your field of
expertise.






--- Chan Mahanta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  O' Ram:

  Hope your weekend is going well. We had a nice
  kharkhowa gathering,
  along with some  kolgutikhowas and even a couple of
  desuali  folks
  last evening. This has been the most pleasant of
  July weather I can
  recall in our 32 years in St. Louis. A light breeze
  carrying mist
  from the river kept us comfortable, the mosquitos
  were on vacation,
  the cicadas were noisy but our friends' conversation
  kept them at bay
  and my mango-margarita kept everyone mellower than
  the near
  full-moon's light under a clear sky, until we fared
  our friends well-
  in whose honor we hosted the gathering--on their
  impending
  trip to the desert of Rajasthan where he will be
  teaching business
  management as a Fullbright Scholar
  on sabbatical at Pilani and she will be there to
  keep him company.

  Anyway,  I read your thoughts here. As usual, no
  problems with your
  being a non-engineer. I am not one either. In IIT
  we, the
  architecture students, were laughed at by our
  engineering friends,
  because we did not use slide-rules, which was
  equivalent to looking
  down upon people who count with their fingertips,
  the lowest of the
  low-tech lot, a few notches below the
  logarithmatic-table users. We
  tried to turn the tables by laughing at their
  drawing skills. But
  they knew how to put us even further down: They told
  us that they
  will always have draftsmen ( I don't remember
  hearing of draftswomen)
  to do their dirty work, while we shall remain
  pencil-pushers for
  ever. That was really below the below the belt, and
  it hurt.

  Enough about my sad stories.

  On the fools'-rush front, I won't hold anyone guilty
  of crimes that I
  routinely commit. So rest easy there also.

  By now if you are beginning to fret about   all the
  nicey-nice leader
  to this response and wondering if I am about spring
  a tripper on you,
  relax there too. I don't have anything tricky up my
  sleeve this
  morning.

  All I ask is WHAT exactly were you and your cheering
  section, ably
  led by Krishendu,  trying to prove or disprove ?
  Once I get a bearing
  on that, I will be pleased to share my thoughts.

  Take care.

  c-da










  At 9:16 AM -0600 7/28/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
  C'da
  
  Being a non-engineer, and susori-musori pass kora
  individual, I may
  not be qualified to comment in this high-flying
  math/engg. debate -
  but nevertheless, I will try... you know, fools
  rush in where
  angels
  
  One, is it is generally recognized that Indian
  graduating from
  Indian schools are good in math/science. Not
  because they boast
  about it, but because they just are. There are
  extremely bright
  people there.
  Most of the people who have been a big success in
  this and other
  countries have had their fundas from India, and
  most Assamese from
  the Engg. colleges in Assam, and education in
   cotton or GU or DU.
  
  Second, you charge that because you don't see
  contributions from
  these people in India, then obviously these
  graduates are Not
  creative etc.
  
  It is possible that even though these Indians may
  be creative and
  intelligent, but may NOT be willing or are not able
  to contribute to
  societies they came from. Maybe, they came to the
  USA to make more
  money (read better opportunities).
  While, I do not think there is anything wrong with
  that, let us
  realize that  there are many many people in India
  who are just as
  capabale or better than immigrants to the US and
  who have
  contributed to Indian's growth and development.
  
  Third, if these people were not creative in India,
  how is it that
  these very same people with the basic fundamentals
  from India have
  suddenly become creative here? Did they suddenly
  sprout wings?
  
  Lastly, (and I may the loner here) - Math  science
  are great, but
  let us not put down other branches. There are many
  world leaders
  (Kennedy/Gandhi/Nehru etc) who have come from
  non-science, non-tech
  backgrounds,

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse; Big Dig project

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse-- A Quick Primer

Re: [Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

19 matches

Site Navigation

Mail list logo

Footer information