Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
Just make sure you put the crystal at the DAC end of the I2S link, not at the source :) For what it's worth, I asked a while ago for a quote on the AK2396 as used in the Transporter. They're just £1.50 - about $3.00 - and that's in small quantities. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Hum?
Note the interconnect is a Chord Cobra 2 and is shielded as far as I am aware. I do have the speaker cable (naim) curled up by the back of the amp/tp cos the speakers are not so far from the amp and naim recommend 3.5m min length of the speaker cable. I am in Belgium by the way lots of radio stations in a small area. -- markipowell markipowell's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9546 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33414 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
Veggen;207476 Wrote: Interesting! Care to share some more details on this? Well, I'll do. But it's still work in progress. JLM -- jlmatrat jlmatrat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10656 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
AndyC_772;207548 Wrote: Just make sure you put the crystal at the DAC end of the I2S link, not at the source :) Wrong way! And common mistake. When you want to keep jitter as low as possible, you better to take care of it from the very beginning, at the source. It's true for S/PDIF, and obvious for I2S, where two of the wires are dedicated to clocking (bitclock and wordclock). In all cases, the DAC has to be slaved to incoming data flow. Call it as you like, reclock, de-jitter, when performed at the DAC end, is no more than a band aid: better to prevent than to care. JLM -- jlmatrat jlmatrat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10656 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
NO! It's at the DAC - and ONLY at the DAC - that the jitter actually matters. That's where you want the nice, stable, low jitter oscillator. Send the clock along a cable, or even a long PCB trace, and it starts to degrade. So, if you put the oscillator at the source and then connect it via a cable to the DAC, the DAC gets a degraded clock. That's when you start having to worry about PLLs and other de-jitter circuits, which gives you much the same sort of problem as SPDIF (though admittedly without the data-dependency to worry about). If you're going to use I2S but you put the clock at the transport end, you've really not achieved all the jitter reduction you could have done. Physically locate the crystal at the DAC end of the link, and the DAC gets the cleanest clock available anywhere in the system. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
i think Feb 2008 was the answer i was hoping for ! hopefully with a better DAC applied to it and proper 24/96 ! Liam -- soupdragon SB3 + Cyrus CD6 + JVC QL A75 DD TT - Cyrus PreX - Eclipse TD 502 - Eclipse 512 speakers soupdragon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4958 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Inverted polarity level boost ?
Hugh, if you go to hometheatershack you can get a ton of info about the Behringer. -- tonyptony tonyptony's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3397 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35884 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
I had a little update this morning. In fact the yet to be announced product would fill a gap between SB3 and Transporter. It seems it would be around $1000. If this is true, it could be the SB+ with XLR we are all waiting for. -- elmstreet elmstreet's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11621 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
elmstreet;207589 Wrote: I had a little update this morning. In fact the yet to be announced product would fill a gap between SB3 and Transporter. It seems it would be around $1000. If this is true, it could be the SB+ with XLR we are all waiting for. What we (audiophiles) are waiting for isn't remotely what the mass market is waiting for. The average Joe wouldn't have a clue what an XLR output is for; nor would he possess any other equipment to take advantage of it. Assuming Logitech want to ship Squeezeboxes in volume, they will have to address the needs of the mass market. Sound quality is already more than good enough for that. It strikes me that the existing hardware is already fine for the mass market. The barrier to the Squeezebox becoming a mainstream product is the backend - the slightly geeky nature of Slimserver, and the somewhat involved process of ripping CDs and tagging files. I predict that Logitech will focus on these issues rather than mess with the Squeezebox itself. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
Perhaps an SB3 in a standard with box, complete with a cd transport and a 'rip' button, plus a modest built-in hard drive and USB2 port for an external drive. Not necessarily any better sounding, same DAC and such, but essentially all one needs for getting one's music into a library without the need for a computer. -- jtc jtc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11230 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
jlmatrat;207562 Wrote: Wrong way! And common mistake. When you want to keep jitter as low as possible, you better to take care of it from the very beginning, at the source. It's true for S/PDIF, and obvious for I2S, where two of the wires are dedicated to clocking (bitclock and wordclock). In all cases, the DAC has to be slaved to incoming data flow. Call it as you like, reclock, de-jitter, when performed at the DAC end, is no more than a band aid: better to prevent than to care. This is exactly backwards. The only place jitter matters (unless it is so severe it causes bit errors) is at the DAC. Your goal should be to minimize jitter at the DAC as much as possible, and that is accomplished by putting the crystal at the DAC. Think about how jitter distorts the analogue out. We're talking about digital signals here - the sequence of 1s and 0s is fixed and doesn't care at all about precisely when the bits arrive. The only thing that can affect the analogue out is WHEN they are converted to analogue. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
The ripping/tagging/organizing is the problem with SlimServer for the mass market. I think I pretty well summed it up here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=207613postcount=31 Essentially, a suite of Windows/Mac tools for ripping/tagging/organizing the files. The ripper wouldn't need to be as good as EAC for the masses, simply because they won't demand it and the lossy format they will almost certainly encode the tracks to would mean quality isn't the highest priority. -- 4mula1 4mula1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3439 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
cliveb;207593 Wrote: It strikes me that the existing hardware is already fine for the mass market. The barrier to the Squeezebox becoming a mainstream product is the backend - the slightly geeky nature of Slimserver, and the somewhat involved process of ripping CDs and tagging files. I predict that Logitech will focus on these issues rather than mess with the Squeezebox itself. I couldn't agree more. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
The problem with the Squeezebox and the mass market is the price. £199 for a music player is just plain unaffordable for many, and looks awfully expensive alongside, say, an Ipod video at £150. I can buy a PDA with wi-fi that's good for a lot more than music for less. As anyone in the industry will tell you, it's all down to volume. There's no real reason why, built in high enough quantities, a product like the Squeezebox couldn't be sold for half, maybe even a quarter of its current price. That's the challenge - not giving it more gadgets and gizmos for nerds and audiophiles. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
jtc;207602 Wrote: Perhaps an SB3 in a standard with box, complete with a cd transport and a 'rip' button, plus a modest built-in hard drive and USB2 port for an external drive. Not necessarily any better sounding, same DAC and such, but essentially all one needs for getting one's music into a library without the need for a computer. You realize this would be going against the company's whole design philosophy for the Squeezebox and the Transporter? They designed them as -Slim device-, not all-in-one fat devices. Its one of the things that makes the Squeezebox so brilliant, IMO. All-in-one devices such as the Cambridge, the Olive or the McIntosh music servers are way too expensive for what you're getting. And I'm not at all convinced that they're more convenient. Those small screens look awefully small. OTOH, on my computer, I have a nice 17 inch LCD. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
That's a novel idea, but let's ditch the hard drive and USB connector. Just have a CD drive and a 1GB flash memory card. Pop in a CD and it rips to the flash card, then transfers the rips to the slimserver box, which performs lookups, encoding, tagging, ReplayGain, moving into the library structure, and scanning to add it to the database. All the settings are controlled in the slimserver interface. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
You might well be right - though I'd also bear in mind that a lot of commodity PC equipment is sold by clueless retailers who will never be able to demo any equipment properly or give out anything but the most basic advice. That means that it's difficult for a potential purchaser to judge whether or not a device is user-friendly before forking out the cash - but the price is something they can see and make a judgment about straight away. Remember, Logitech sells mice, keyboards and webcams. They're masters of pile-it-high, sell-it-cheap. IMHO they actually do it very well, my Logitech mice are great. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
fascinating - i agree as to aesthetics, would be nice to have a state of the art DAC and crystal with clean power supply. I do like the idea of the flash drive - but couldnt one use ones own CD player into SB to transfer info in, rather than compromise aesthetics ? Liam -- soupdragon SB3 + Cyrus CD6 + JVC QL A75 DD TT - Cyrus PreX - Eclipse TD 502 - Eclipse 512 speakers soupdragon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4958 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
AndyC_772;207632 Wrote: The problem with the Squeezebox and the mass market is the price. £199 for a music player is just plain unaffordable for many, and looks awfully expensive alongside, say, an Ipod video at £150. I can buy a PDA with wi-fi that's good for a lot more than music for less. As anyone in the industry will tell you, it's all down to volume. There's no real reason why, built in high enough quantities, a product like the Squeezebox couldn't be sold for half, maybe even a quarter of its current price. That's the challenge - not giving it more gadgets and gizmos for nerds and audiophiles. Depends how they want to position it in the market. But I think we can expect price drops. But, like cliveb pointed out, one of the main obstacles is: the Squeezebox isn't user-friendly enough. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sb4 ?
The SB, in its current form/function and flexibility, including the Slimserver design/function -- are what makes the SB system among the most enjoyable things I have purchased and used in a long long time. With that said, I totally agree -- I am a geek and am at home working with computers as I have been since the 70s. For even moderately skilled technology savvy people(my wife fits in here) -- Managing and owning a SB setup, properly, on their own is a near impossibility. I don't think this is a huge problem for LogitechI hope there are enough of us geeks to sustain a viable product line with the current approach and mindset. With that said, if logitech wants to break out of this niche, and expand to a much larger customer base...concentrating on ease of use should be a major focus.I think doing this by providing a front end to many existing functions, including basic/advanced modes of the slimserver/SB would be a good general approach. I certainly hope they will succeed in fostering broader acceptance of the SB/slimserver system -- as I think then the economies of scale can provide even more functionality and performance/$$ than available otherwiseand of course much more profits for Logitech. -- jt25741 SB3-AR Masters Coax - PS Audio DLIII - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio P5 - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio W5 - Cardas Golden Reference Hi-Mid,PS Audio Xstream Plus Low- Magnepan 3.6R jt25741's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35881 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
opaqueice;207603 Wrote: This is exactly backwards. The only place jitter matters is at the DAC. Well, I'm on hurry now and I'll be back with a more elaborated reply. In the meantime, would you (and Andy) please instruct me about the best way to layout and interconnect a SB board, a super clock (any make) and a DAC like this one: http://www.audiokit.ro/I2S.html Think of it! JLM -- jlmatrat jlmatrat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10656 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
The topology is dead simple, really - in an ideal world you'd connect the clock directly to the DAC board, as close to the pin of the D/A converter chip itself as you can. The I2S SCK signal should be an output from the DAC board. Of course, I assume that you wouldn't be undertaking to design your own equipment unless you have a fair degree of electronics expertise - so I'll leave it up to you to worry about how to ensure that the clock signal is driven between the two boards in the correct direction. In practise there's also a problem that the I2S data rate isn't the same as the clock speed that the SB requires (about 12MHz IIRC). This does mean that there has to be a clock divider or PLL somewhere in the system, and that may mean putting the super-clock on the SB board after all. In this case, using I2S is still a theoretical improvement over SPDIF, but it's not giving you the ideal minimum-jitter performance you could have if the SB were able to directly accept the I2S clock. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the DAC in the Squeezebox 3?
AndyC_772;207692 Wrote: The topology is dead simple, really - in an ideal world you'd connect the clock directly to the DAC board, as close to the pin of the D/A converter chip itself as you can. The I2S SCK signal should be an output from the DAC board. Well, we're done. In the real world, and most of the time, connecting the clock at the DAC is no more than wishful thinking. Or a myth. ... there has to be a clock divider or PLL somewhere in the system, and that may mean putting the super-clock on the SB board after all. In this case, using I2S is still a theoretical improvement over SPDIF, but it's not giving you the ideal minimum-jitter performance you could have if the SB were able to directly accept the I2S clock. This is moot. The wire length between I2S output from the Xilinx and the I2S input on the DAC board will be something like two inches. Not a reason for a dirty layout and cabling, yet easy to deal with. Also, assuming you got a near to perfect bitclock and wordclock at DAC pins, you'll still have to face issues regarding how to slave the transport (whatever the way it's implemented) and to get back the datas from it. Clocking the DAC instead of the transport is quite impossible when modding existing devices, and even if it's possible in a design from scratch, it's not a panacea. JLM -- jlmatrat jlmatrat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10656 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35642 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Inverted polarity level boost ?
inguz;207511 Wrote: By the way, I'm interested in your experiences with horns and active crossovers. I'd love to be able to do active crossover filters on the server, but Squeezebox doesn't lend itself to that very easily. How do you find the DEQ2496? Hugh you probably meant the DCX2496. I will send you a PM on Monday with the system description and comments. Chris -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35884 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
