Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
honestguv wrote: Passive bi-amplification does almost nothing (but not quite nothing) and would appear to be mainly an old audiophile marketing tool. I agree, active bi-amplification is better, but actually, passive bi-amping makes quite a considerable difference. I used to use it myself until one of my amps packed up! :) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
Robin Bowes;291936 Wrote: honestguv wrote: Passive bi-amplification does almost nothing (but not quite nothing) and would appear to be mainly an old audiophile marketing tool. I agree, active bi-amplification is better, but actually, passive bi-amping makes quite a considerable difference. I used to use it myself until one of my amps packed up! :) R. I also agree, I have heard passive bi-amping make a very nice improvement with some 2-way passive speakers, when the speakers are bi-wirable and their internal passive crossovers are independent (not tied together within the speaker). The usual explanation you will find for this (besides the usual-suspect biwiring arguments) is that by having separate amplifiers separately driving each individual passive crossover (low-pass and high-pass), the separate crossover loads are no longer dependently modulating an otherwise sole amplifier output driver. Whether this reason is true or not, I personally don't know - I have often wondered what the reason was for the audible difference from this arrangement. -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What happened to the links?
Someone probably deleted them while cleaning up the server. Probably shouldn't have gone in a directory called temp in the first place :) -- funkstar funkstar's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46352 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What happened to the links?
funkstar;291940 Wrote: Someone probably deleted them while cleaning up the server. [...] Well, considering one of Sean's best arguments is, to paraphrase, yes DACs and other components have subjective and unmeasurable factors to their sound but of the things that are measurable, the TP DAC beats Benchmark's, and others, then these gifs were very important screen shots illustrating his proposition. One (noise floor) basically swayed me over from the Benchmark to buy the TP. regards, David -- wireless200 wireless200's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11887 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46352 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
seanadams;291893 Wrote: That's wrong - below radio frequencies, you want a low source impedance and a high load impedance. 100R into 10K is a good (and typical) arrangement for audio. Obviously, the theorem is not wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_theorem but I'll take your word on the desired relative impedances being the best. Why is this and from there how do you reconcile a speaker's typical impdendance with a typical SS amp's output impedance (high back to low)? regards, David -- wireless200 wireless200's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11887 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
pfarrell;291888 Wrote: OK, I'm missing something here. You remove the jumper on the speaker between the woofer and tweeter, bypassing the internal crossover in the speaker. Where is the (passive) crossover??? Inside the speaker case, naturally. We're talking about speakers with two sets of binding posts. Those usually come with removable jumpers shorting the high/low posts. Internally, there's typically a high pass filter between the tweeters and the high posts, and a low pass filter between the woofer and the woofer posts. The only connection between the two sections comes from the external jumpers. So you can remove the external jumpers and bi-amp in a way that's perfectly safe for the drivers. seanadams;291892 Wrote: If the IS a passive crossover at all... otherwise it'll cook. If you're multi-amping then I don't think that's a given. Indeed, I'd prefer to ONLY use active (line level, low current) crossovers in that scenario. It's early and I haven't had my coffee, but I'm not seeing at the moment how there could NOT be a high-pass filter between the tweeter binding posts and the tweeter in a bi-wireable speaker - is that possible? The only problem I can see is if the posts are internally shorted (in which case the external jumpers would just be for show). Then bi-amping might make the amplifier(s) unhappy, although the drivers should still be fine. In any case, anyone trying this should make certain to read the documentation that came with their speakers and follow the manufacturer's recommendation. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
wireless200;291953 Wrote: Obviously, the theorem is not wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_theorem I think Sean was probably referring to the doesn't bode well part of your post when he said it was wrong. Read the second paragraph of the wiki article you linked to and you'll see why. Why is this and from there how do you reconcile a speaker's typical impdendance with a typical SS amp's output impedance (high back to low)? Reconcile what? In both cases the source impedance is much lower than the load, as it should be. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
I have four Alecto monoblocks driving my speakers, two per speaker. Adding the second pair of amps was a significant upgrade in terms of bass control and depth. It also made an (admittedly lesser) improvement to the treble, removing a layer of grain. When using stereo amps, it is normal to use one amp for the two bass sections of the speakers, and one for the two treble sections (horizontal). HOWEVER, although many people don't try this, it is actually better to use one stereo amp for the left speaker, and the other one for the right speaker. This way the power supply is only dealing with a single speaker's worth of bass delivery, and any crosstalk is kept within the same speaker. Of course, if you decide to go the bi-amping route, then it is trivial to try out both arrangements. On the question of whether bi-amping is an improvement, per se. That is a somewhat different issue. I found that when I had the opportunity to use a single pair of Bryston 600W monoblocks (the 7B's if I remember correctly), then I found them to be a considerable improvement over the two pairs of Alectos. In other words, bi-amping is not a universal panacea. It can be a cost effective way of upgrading an existing system, if you simply double up on you existing power amp(s). I would dearly love to compare lower powered bi-amped Brystons with a single pair of the 7Bs. Active speakers, where each individual frequency range in a speaker is driven with a different amp, and where the crossover frequencies are controlled electronically prior to the power amps are a very different kettle of fish. Just to be clear, although many people view active speakers as containing the crossover electronics, and amps within the enclosure, widespread use of this topology is quite recent. The term active speakers also applies to the topology that has the crossover and all the amps in your equipment rack, with multiple speaker cables running to each speaker. This is not what is referred to in common audio parlance as bi-amping (sorry Pat). -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
You are in danger of confusing the OP IMO: Bi-amping is using a pair of amps to drive a conventional passive loudspeaker. Using a (line level) crossover before the amplifiers, is generally known as 'active' and is a quite different approach. Bi-amping usually works because the passive loudspeaker has two sets of binding posts, which allow the crossover to be split into HF and LF parts. Each part of the crossover is then driven by a separate amplifier. The HF and LF parts of the speaker's crossover may further split the signal to multiple speaker drive units. At the very least, bi-amping allows each amplifier to 'see' a reduced crossover/drive unit load, and doubles the potential power into the speaker. You can argue whether it's better to use two amps of 'n' watts bi-amped or a single amp of '2n' watts, but bi-amping can definitely make a big difference to the sound - depending on the actual components used of course. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Burning amp in with dummy load
ModelCitizen;291744 Wrote: I'm perplexed why you asked this here. The Naim forums seem the obvious place to ask. MC Actually I cheated, I asked in both forums. -- agentsmith System 1: SB2 and a mostly Naim system System 2: SB2 connected digitally to a Meridian F80 agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46295 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Burning amp in with dummy load
iPhone;291742 Wrote: All joking aside, at least the wife lets you enjoy your hobby and even allows the buying of new stuff. Most of us can#8217;t have everything, so at least having a better half that allows us to enjoy our hobby is more then half the battle. After all these years my better half finally understands the difference between a boom box and good stereo understanding why something that just produces sound is not the same as a system attempting to produce music as it was actually recorded. I think over time good music reproduction grows on everybody and they begin to realize a boom box for what it is, a substitute of convenience or last resort! Actually it was quite a battle with my wife to be able to bring these babies home. My wife still does not understand the differences between a clock radio and a good system. But then again I bought the Meridian F80 last month I went nuts in buying new gears in the past few months, now the wife would probably kill me if I bring another black box home. -- agentsmith System 1: SB2 and a mostly Naim system System 2: SB2 connected digitally to a Meridian F80 agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46295 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
Yes, of course - a dual mono design is effectively the same as my set up using monoblocks. Another thing about vertical bi-amping is that it does give you the opportunity to site the amps near the speakers, and run long interconnects if you so wish. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
wireless200;292026 Wrote: TP (100 ohms) into Amp (10k ohms) vs Amp output (~4 ohms) into speakers (~4 ohms). In one case the impedance is not matched in the other it is. I assume this is because the speaker is a physical transducer and you'd need maximum power transfer but again I'd like to hear a designer's perspective. Eh? What kind of SS amp has an ouput impedance of 4 ohms? Mostly they're well under .1 ohms (usually expressed in terms of the damping factor). An amplifier with an output impedance close to the impedance of the speaker it's connected to will audibly distort. Yes, this is a whole 'nother matter - LC effects. Not really wanting to get into that at this time for my purposes. It's -not- another matter - it's one of the main reasons you need the output impedance much less than the input impedance. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
Take the highly regarded Brystons as an example. Their pre-amps have an output impedence of 110 ohms, and their power amps an input impedence of 50k ohms. 100 ohms or so is pretty much a standard value for pre-amps, and matches the output of the TP. Therefore this is a technical non-issue in your case. I hope that puts your mind at rest. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
I would agree with most of the posts. I have speakers that are designed to be run in a bewildering variety of consigurations that I won't list here, simply by changing the orientation of the connection panel on the back. I run mine active (x-overs are optional plugin modules inside the stereo power amps). One of the many options is to run the mid+treble as vertical bi-amp and run the bass as a horizontal bi-amp. This addresses the crosstalk benefit but not the mono bass needs more power problem. In my old active system, the manufacturer reccomendation was to run left bass+right mid from one amp and right bass and left mid from another, with the treble from the third amp...(imagine the wiring nightmare that was! - especially with non standard XLR cabling). If I was tri-amping (not active) would run mid+bass vertical and treble horizontal. YMMV. For me personally I find active is a significant leap in quality from bi/tri-amping as the passive crossover is gone, gone, gone...and so is the small waste of electricity that is dumping power for no reason because of the insertion loss. Active seems to give much better control at the bass end in particular and has an overall grip on the rhythmic/dynamic aspects of the music that I find lacking in many non-active setups. Also of course it is much easier to design whatever x-over slopes you want to make the drivers+cabinet sound good when working at line level... That's not to say that active is a panacea of course. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
wireless200;292047 Wrote: The Mcintosh mc402 gives 2, 4, and 8 terminals as output load impedance. Yes: that's the required LOAD impedance, ie. the input impedance of the device you're driving (the speakers). The output impedance of the amplifier itself (the SOURCE impedance) will be significantly smaller - as opaqueice says, probably less than 0.1 ohms. wireless200;292047 Wrote: Again as stated earlier I think it's to generate maximum voltage across the input. But if that were absolutely the case then speakers impedances should be as high as possible. The physical machinations required of a woofer or tweeter must account for this difference. High impedances mean that less current gets passed, which of course means lower power. Speakers need to have a fairly low impedance so that sufficient current will pass that you'll get a usable loudness. And in turn, this means the output impedance of the amp must be extremely low. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
wireless200;292026 Wrote: Well I think NewBuyer had it right: you want maximum voltage across the target but I wanted to hear Sean's explanation. I want to use the TP as a pre-amp and avoid buying a separate pre-amp. That's why I'm asking these questions. Although it's good information I don't really want to hear other's are doing it... I like to know what the pros and cons are from a technical perspective. An MC402 by itself is pricey and if I've got to buy a pre-amp too then I've got to take that into account for my budget. regards, David Hello David, You asked a question and for advice. Sean answered it (the designer of SB). Then you turn around and disagree with him with some lame wikipedia link. Wikipedia is a large general information source. It is not the exact or absolute answer to a very specific question you posed. From source to driver device we are not looking for maximum power out (power as in watts), we are looking for maximum efficiency as in signal voltage gain transfer without causing distortion of the audio signal. The wikipedia was describing in general terms maximum power transfer of power in watts to an output device. As in an RF amplifier to an antenna load where impedance mismatch causes output power to be lost in the form of heat. As for the outputs on the Transporter, they are well-designed line level outputs. The unbalanced RCAs have 2Vrms output and the Balanced have 3Vrms (8.5Vpp). Any amplifier with a properly designed input gain stage and 29dB of overall gain is going to be loud enough for most people not to need a pre-amp. More to the point is trying the Transporter alone, if it is not loud enough for your taste, buy or use a pre-amp. A good dealer would most likely let you try this at the shop. If the TP alone does not get loud enough for you, then there is always the Mac I-Amp Model MC6900. Last but not least, what are you trying to drive that needs 400 watts per channel? Most people never use more then the first 25 watts of their amplifier unless they have very inefficient speakers. The Mac MC252 has 250 watts and plenty of dynamic headroom. Yes I have 300 watts per channel. My room is fairly large and my speakers are not the most efficient, but having said that, I would never be able to use more then 2/3 of the power. Turning the pre-amp gain past Two Oclock would cause permanent hearing loss. I would have bought 200 watt mono blocks, but Charles only makes 300 watt mono blocks. -- iPhone iPhone Last.FM http://www.lastfm.com/user/mePhone Media Room: Transporter, Vandersteen Quatro Signature, Ayre MX-R Mono Blocks, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center Channel, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco 710, RAM Oppo DV970HD, VeraStarr 6.4SE Living Room: SqueezeBox Duet, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold Bedroom: Squeezebox 3, Thiel 2.3, NAD C370 iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
opaqueice;292032 Wrote: Eh? What kind of SS amp has an ouput impedance of 4 ohms? Mostly they're well under .1 ohms (usually expressed in terms of the damping factor). An amplifier with an output impedance close to the impedance of the speaker it's connected to will audibly distort. It's -not- another matter - it's one of the main reasons you need the output impedance much less than the input impedance. The Mcintosh mc402 gives 2, 4, and 8 terminals as output load impedance. Musical Fidelity Kw550 specs a 50 ohm output load loop impedance. Of course LC effects will distort the waveform (or even eliminate it at certain frequencies due to filtering effects). I guessing if there were no LC effects, then there would still be valid reasons for the relatively different impedance values between source and target. Again as stated earlier I think it's to generate maximum voltage across the input. But if that were absolutely the case then speakers impedances should be as high as possible. The physical machinations required of a woofer or tweeter must account for this difference. -- wireless200 wireless200's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11887 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
Don't try and compare line level situations with speaker load situations, as there is more to take into account in the case of speakers. In the line level situation, which you asked about initially, the connection is made using voltage bridging (AKA impedence bridging). Maximum power transfer is not required, and this configuration is more resistant to noise. In the case of a power amp to speaker connection, you need to be able to a number of things. You need to be able to generate a serious amount of power to move the speakers, and you need to be able to control these mechanical devices, particularly around the area of their mechanical resonance. For these reasons, speakers have a relatively low impedance, to enable good power delivery, but the power amp will, as opaquiece states, typically have an output impedance of around 0.1 ohms. While the lower output impedance does not optimise the power transfer, it does increase the damping factor. The higher the damping factor, the better controlled the speaker will be. Thus there is a trade off between power delivery and control. Also, you misunderstand the labelling of the output terminals on the MacIntosh. When they say 2, 4, or 8 ohm output load impedence, they are talking about the nominal impedance of the speakers, and not the the output impedance of the amplifier itself. -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
I'd recommend that you get the amp/speakers you want and hook up the TP directly to the amp and give it a listen. If you don't like what you hear, then add a pre-amp. I wouldn't budget for one right out of the box. Having said that, I ended up using one because I like the way it sounds. I'm using an SB3+Dac and adding a preamp brought the lower frequencies to life. I also like the tube sound in my preamp. You may not experience any of this with your equipment combo, so I think it makes sense to give it a listen and go from there. -Ben -- Ben Diss 'SB3' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) - 'Lavry DA10' (http://www.lavryengineering.com/productspage_da_10.html) - 'BAT VK-31SE' (http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-31SE/index.html) - 'Halo A21' (http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php) - 'BW 803D' (http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1156) Ben Diss's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4289 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
Phil Leigh;292052 Wrote: For me personally I find active is a significant leap in quality from bi/tri-amping as the passive crossover is gone, gone, gone...and so is the small waste of electricity that is dumping power for no reason because of the insertion loss. Active seems to give much better control at the bass end in particular and has an overall grip on the rhythmic/dynamic aspects of the music that I find lacking in many non-active setups. The bass in my (active, quad-amped) system is the best I've ever heard. I think it has more to do with the dipole radiation pattern than anything else, but it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to design a passive crossover that can compensate for the dipole rolloff, so they go together. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audio insanity
Hey. Nice rugs! -- gharris999 gharris999's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=115 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46270 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
David - power transfer is irrelevant in the context of audio (generally speaking). It is very important in power stations and radio transmitters. Amplifiers and pre-amps have active devices in them - transistors and valves - that amplify the voltages. Power transfer is only relevant where we are trying to minimise losses in passive circuits like power lines etc. In line-level audio, we care about voltages rather than power. Optimum voltage transfer occurs with low source and high sink impedance so that the sink does not load the source. For speaker to power amp matching (and this differs slightly between valve amps with output transformers and tranny amps) the issue is that the PSU can only deliver so many volts (say 40) before it distorts. So, the output transistors vary the voltage between 0-40 volts (max). The speaker impedance is say a fixed 8 ohms (lets ignore reactance here) and the output impedance is usually lower - say 2 ohms. The output transistors do the work of varying the voltage to deliver the requisite power to the speakers. This is the opposite to mains wiring or antennas where we want to lose as little power as possible along the line - there are no amplifiers to compensate for the power loss along the way. The downside (if you can call it that) of having a low internal or output impedance of an amp is that more power is lost as heat within the output devices...that's why amps get hot. As an example, if your power amp can swing 40V from its PSU rails, has an impedance of 2 ohms and is running into an 8 ohm speaker, the max voltage the amp could deliver to the speaker would be: 40*(8/8+2) = 32 volts The power the amp could deliver into the speaker would be (39.5*39.5)/8=128 watts and the power lost inside the amp by heating up the heatsinks would be (32*32)/2= 512 watts of heat That's roughly 25% efficiency. This is for a Class A amp with full power delivery at all times (not class B!!!) If the impedance of the amp was 8 ohms: volts to speaker= 40*(8/(8+8)) = 20v power to speaker = (20*20)/8 = 50 watts power lost to heat = (20*20)/8 = 50 watts That's 50% efficiency...but the amp can only deliver 40% of the power of the other example. Given that the maximum volt swing from the PSU is a fixed thing and the speaker impedance is a fixed thing, the amp designer only has one choice...if he wants to deliver more power, he has to sacrifice overall efficiency and lower the impedance of the amp... I hope I haven't confused things? ...dons flame-proof suit, waits for attack by real electronics engineers :o) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
Okey-dokey, I better get out two bottles of Vitamin I. My eyes are crossed. Thank you to opaqueice for providing pictures - even in color! I had already found the Rod Elliot article and immediately knew I needed the Cliff Note version. Carry-on. I have plenty of friends who will enjoy the thread and translate for me. -- SadieKate SadieKate's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16805 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
Thanks Phil and others I think I've got a better understanding of what's going on there. Actually I understand the Wiki article just fine. I derived the theorem in 2nd year EE and have an MSEE. It's covered in every Circuits 101 class. Actually I think opaq is a little confused about what it says because the reason the theorem doesn't apply for my question wasn't due to the parts about power transfer or efficiency. Of course thankfully others stepped up with very good clear-headed explanations as to what was going on. Thanks to Phil and others for that. There were some very good replies. As far as needing 400 watts. I have inefficient speakers. Aerial 7Bs (rated 86 dB but measured less in Stereophile). They drop to 4 ohms in the bass region. I thought about getting an MC252 but the MC402 was reommended for my speakers. But probably either one would work. Follow the old adage for cars - get the biggest engine you can in the model you want to buy. :) I've owned a 400 watt Krell and a 300 watt Musical Fidelity with these speakers and, yeah, they could get loud but I don't think they were overkill by any means. Also of course it has to do with delivering peak power when it's needed. Certainly the Aerials swallow the 100 watt Marantz I have hooked up to them now. It'll get loud too but you can tell they need something with more power or ability to deliver power when needed. Also nothing meant against Sean by quoting that link. No need for me to go and re-explain the theorem when a link would do. I was looking for a little more explanation and others nicely stepped up. regards, David -- wireless200 wireless200's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11887 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
opaqueice;292064 Wrote: Actually the wikipedia article is fine - he just needed to read (and understand) past the first two sentences. Maybe that was too much to expect. Actually understanding the article - standard fare in any circuits 101 class - isn't the issue. The article doesn't say anything about what is best for audio quality does it. Obviously there's more to it than power transfer and efficiency. I think that's where you're getting confused. -- wireless200 wireless200's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11887 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
Wireless, not sure you need all that power for the Aerials. FWIW, I have Aerial Model 9s-pretty similar to the 7bs except with more bass. When I first got them, I powered them with a 150 watt Classe intergrated. Sounded teriffic. However, I had been told by numerous sources that the 9s would only really sing with more power. I then purchased 2 350 Classe monos off of Audiogon. Not a great purchase. The bass may be a little punchier, but all in all not a significant improvement. I have heard the Aerials w/Mac gear and that is definitely a good match. Perhaps relevant to your original question, I run my TP directly into my power. Without attenuators, my amps had way way too much gain. Added Endler stepped attenuators and am now happy as a clam. Good luck. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
wireless200;292136 Wrote: I think that's where you're getting confused. Confused about what? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
Shredder;292146 Wrote: [...]Perhaps relevant to your original question, I run my TP directly into my power. Without attenuators, my amps had way way too much gain. Added Endler stepped attenuators and am now happy as a clam. Good luck. Shred, why didn't you adjust the jumpers inside the TP? Do you not want to open it up? regards, David -- wireless200 wireless200's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11887 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
I've come to understand that less 'rated power' can -in principle- confer an advantage. Every active component has a dynamic range and that includes power amps. This means a lower rated amp -can- have an advantage conferred to it against a bigger amp whose dynamic range stays mostly unused even at maximum usable volume. I am talking about comparing differently powered models of the same amp design e.g. FPB200 vs FPB600. (Clearly, amps of different basic design have different current delivery into hard or complex loads and better load handling is in principle a good thing, but that's an aside to my point.) So bigger isn't automatically better. It depends! Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
Actually, I -am- confused about Phil's post. Phil Leigh;292086 Wrote: As an example, if your power amp can swing 40V from its PSU rails, has an impedance of 2 ohms and is running into an 8 ohm speaker, the max voltage the amp could deliver to the speaker would be: 40*(8/8+2) = 32 volts The power the amp could deliver into the speaker would be (32*32)/8=128 watts and the power lost inside the amp by heating up the heatsinks would be (32*32)/2= 512 watts of heat That's roughly 25% efficiency. This is for a Class A amp with full power delivery at all times (not class B!!!) In your examples you treated the amp as a voltage source and the output impedance as if it were in -parallel- with the load. But (regardless of the class) I thought output impedance is defined as the part of the internal resistance that's in -series- with the load (again, treating the amp is a voltage source, as you did). If that's right, an amp with an output impedance of 2 ohms driving an 8 ohm speaker will only lose (40-32)*(40-32)/2 = 32 watts of power, not 512, and the efficiency goes to 1 as the output impedance goes to zero. The reason class A amps have low efficiency is because they have an output transistor which dumps current to ground even when the signal is zero. Right? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet + DAC versus Transporter
iPhone;291745 Wrote: If you can spring for a few more hundred dollars a Duet or SB3 would sound great with a Bel Canto e.One DAC3 D/A processor. I really enjoy my Transporter, but if I were going to get a DAC for the Duet or SB3 and could afford a Transporter, I would get the Bel Canto e.One DAC3. To noticeably out perform that combo, I think you would have to spend two to three times as much on a better DAC. I have a slightly modded SB3 with the Welbourne Power supply. I'm also thinking of the Transporter but with the Modwright truth mods. I've been on the fence trying to decide between an outboard DAC such as Audio Notes 2.1 kit or another high quality DAC. Not being able to audition such devices IN MY SYSTEM it makes shopping for such upgrades an exercise in reading user opinions and gleaning information from there. Our system sounds very good with the Nuforce 9SEV2's but I feel now the limiting factor is the native SB3 DAC (1748KE). The sound just has a certain hardness and grain going strightly through the SB3. So to take the Modwright Transporter route or outboard DAC is the question. Perhaps the Duett to outboard DAC is more favorable than the Modwright transporter? I plugged my old Audio Research LS15 into the mix thinking this would be magic. It sucked.. Where to go? Hey, it's just a hobby ;-) -- NoFlyZone NoFlyZone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46064 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet + DAC versus Transporter
NoFlyZone;292168 Wrote: I have a slightly modded SB3 with the Welbourne Power supply. I'm also thinking of the Transporter but with the Modwright truth mods. I've been on the fence trying to decide between an outboard DAC such as Audio Notes 2.1 kit or another high quality DAC. Not being able to audition such devices IN MY SYSTEM it makes shopping for such upgrades an exercise in reading user opinions and gleaning information from there. Our system sounds very good with the Nuforce 9SEV2's but I feel now the limiting factor is the native SB3 DAC (1748KE). The sound just has a certain hardness and grain going strightly through the SB3. So to take the Modwright Transporter route or outboard DAC is the question. Perhaps the Duett to outboard DAC is more favorable than the Modwright transporter? I plugged my old Audio Research LS15 into the mix thinking this would be magic. It sucked.. Where to go? Hey, it's just a hobby ;-) Have you heard a stock TP? It would make sense to hear that 1st , wouldn't it? -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46064 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
opaqueice;292163 Wrote: Actually, I -am- confused about Phil's post. In your examples you treated the amp as a voltage source and the output impedance as if it were in -parallel- with the load. But (regardless of the class) I thought output impedance is defined as the part of the internal resistance that's in -series- with the load (again, treating the amp is a voltage source, as you did). If that's right, an amp with an output impedance of 2 ohms driving an 8 ohm speaker will only lose (40-32)*(40-32)/2 = 32 watts of power, not 512, and the efficiency goes to 1 as the output impedance goes to zero. The reason class A amps have low efficiency is because they have an output transistor which dumps current to ground even when the signal is zero. Right? erm... surely the speaker is wired in parallel across the amp output? - thats why if you wire 2 identical speakers in parallel to an amp their impedance halves and the power delivery doubles...at least until the amp psu gives up! when the internal impedance of an amp hits zero that's a short circuit and the amp blows up! My example was VERY simplistic. AFAIK the amp is a voltage source in most cases. That's what the transistors do - they they act as a tap for the PSU voltage. I'm happy to be wrong... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
I always thought that Musical Fidelity does a good job explaining the benefit of reserve power in their amps - they focus on dynamic range and performance with musical transients, rather than a sustained db level performance. '_Here_is_one_such_explanation_from_them_' (http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/dynamicrange.html), and from there, also be sure to click on their System Diagnostic link to see an interesting interactive graphic... -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
O is correct - when we speak of the impedance of a source, we are talking about what is effectively a series resistance in the source. For a power amp driving speakers, you want it as low as possible. See diagrams here: http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/imped.htm. Also, highly recommend reading: The Art Of Electronics. But getting back to the subject of line-level audio, there's an example here if we suppose we're using passive attenuators, i.e. a resistor divider. Let's say you have a typical 100 ohm source and you want to divide its output voltage level in half. One way to do this would be to put a resistor divider on the output, say two 500 ohm resistors (for a load of 1K). Now you have an output with a higher impedance because the source is not as stiff, it's going through this high resistance that you've added in order to create the voltage divider. However, it's not exactly half, because the divider itself is also acting like a load, pulling down on the source's 100 ohm impedance. The voltage division is effectively as if you have a 600 ohm resistor and a 500 ohm resistor. But also, the new output after the divider has a higher Z because the load is being driven through that additional resistance of the divider. Alternatively, since there is some impedance in the load, you could just hang a single resistor to ground on the output, and this will create a voltage divider in conjunction with the source's 100 ohm impedance. But now the source is working much harder because it has to drive that relatively low impedance, not just the amplifier's high Z of 10K ohm. This will significantly increase the distortion level of an op-amp output. If you've followed all this so far it should make sense why you'd want a low source Z and a very high load Z for a line level signal. You're not trying to transmit gobs of power as with a speaker output, nor are you trying to deal with reflections as with a high-frequency signal. Instead, you are just trying to get signal information (a voltage level) from A to B as accurately as possible (low noise, low distortion). This is best achieved by a stiff or strong (ie low Z) source feeding a high Z load. The reason line-level sources have a 100ohm impedance instead of close to 0 is to provide some short-circuit protection for the output. And in Transporter, this impedance is in fact provided by a series resistor. By contrast, for speakers, you are trying not just to move information, but to actually get work done, and for that to happen your load must have a fairly low impedance: a few ohms, instead of many Kilo-ohms. Otherwise, the voltage required to make the load do anything would be ridiculously high. Also, now that you're dealing with significant power transfer, you want a source impedance as close to zero as possible, because otherwise a bunch of energy is being wasted in the source. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The ultimate minimalistic highend system ?
opaqueice;286439 Wrote: I had mixed impressions too. I wasn't impressed with the midrange, although on some recordings it was adequate. As for the bass, I thought it was too much: I have some recordings of solo bowed acoustic bass where the bassist suddenly plays a sustained, very low note. On the beolabs it sounded clear and defined, but with the volume set to realistic levels in the higher registers the bass note made the whole room shake - totally unrealistic. But perhaps there's an adjustment for bass level which they had simply set too high. SB3-Benchmark DAC1-Linkwitz Orion sounds wonderful :-). Hmmm--- I'd been hoping to read a review from you of your system. I'm sure it sounds pretty wonderful, but I don't know if the outboard xovers and big amp required make it a minimalist system :). -- totoro Perl is the Ron Jeremy of programming languages. totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45599 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] output inpedance of the TP
As to why impedance _matching_ (in the proper sense of the term) of amps and speakers is usually NOT desirable: basically the reason is that the efficiency is very poor. Let's suppose you have a power amplifier with an output Z of 0.1 ohms, and you want to get maximal power out of it. It might seem that this would deliver the most power into a 0.1 ohm speaker... and you could make a 0.1 ohm speaker by tying a bunch of regular speakers in parallel. The problem is that for this to work, the amp would need to be able to deliver enormous quantities of current at a very low voltage, and it's not feasible to design one that could do that. Conversely, let's say you have a 8 ohm speaker. For a given source voltage, maximal power would be delivered to the speaker when the output also has a 8 ohm internal impedance, but the problem is that under that condition you are burning an equal amount of power in the source: a lot of work is getting done by the load, but the system as a whole is only 50% efficient. In practice you are better off designing for efficiency, and upping the voltage. At first it is not really obvious why it works like that, but if you imagine the two extremes of the situation it makes more sense. If you put a short circuit (using a very large wire) across a battery, the battery will heat up but the wire will not. No work has been done outside the battery, so the system is 0% efficient. Now consider an infinitesimally tiny load attached to the battery. Efficiency is now 100% - the battery will not get hot because it isn't strained, but not much work is being done either, because the load is insignificant. It should be more intuitive now that the maximal power transfer would happen when the load is being driven as hard as the source can push, but this is not the same thing as maximal _efficiency_. Since solid state amps naturally have a very low Z, it does not make sense to put an additional resistance at the source - that would just waste power in the amp. Instead we enjoy higher efficiency by using a 4 to 8 ohm load, and use higher voltages to reach the output power levels desired. So that is why if an amplifier says it has 4 ohm outputs what they're really saying is this output can make voltage and current levels suitable to power a 4-ohm load, not this output has a 4ohm impedance. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46347 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The ultimate minimalistic highend system ?
What's the consensus on Dynaudio around here? They're making a PC 2.1 system with all speakers individually powered. About US $2000. It's minimalistic. Add an outboard DAC if that's too cheap. p -- pski pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45599 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bi- and vertical-amping
bigfool1956;291994 Wrote: I have four Alecto monoblocks driving my speakers, two per speaker. Adding the second pair of amps was a significant upgrade in terms of bass control and depth. It also made an (admittedly lesser) improvement to the treble, removing a layer of grain. When using stereo amps, it is normal to use one amp for the two bass sections of the speakers, and one for the two treble sections (horizontal). HOWEVER, although many people don't try this, it is actually better to use one stereo amp for the left speaker, and the other one for the right speaker. This way the power supply is only dealing with a single speaker's worth of bass delivery, and any crosstalk is kept within the same speaker. Of course, if you decide to go the bi-amping route, then it is trivial to try out both arrangements. On the question of whether bi-amping is an improvement, per se. That is a somewhat different issue. I found that when I had the opportunity to use a single pair of Bryston 600W monoblocks (the 7B's if I remember correctly), then I found them to be a considerable improvement over the two pairs of Alectos. In other words, bi-amping is not a universal panacea. It can be a cost effective way of upgrading an existing system, if you simply double up on you existing power amp(s). I would dearly love to compare lower powered bi-amped Brystons with a single pair of the 7Bs. Active speakers, where each individual frequency range in a speaker is driven with a different amp, and where the crossover frequencies are controlled electronically prior to the power amps are a very different kettle of fish. Just to be clear, although many people view active speakers as containing the crossover electronics, and amps within the enclosure, widespread use of this topology is quite recent. The term active speakers also applies to the topology that has the crossover and all the amps in your equipment rack, with multiple speaker cables running to each speaker. This is not what is referred to in common audio parlance as bi-amping (sorry Pat). This is malarky. Again physics is the issue. The benefit of bi-amping is derived from the fact that each amplifier has a fixed range to reproduce. The net effect is a result of Ohm's law. Unlike evolution, this is not a theory. If you are using a single amp on each channel, you will experience benefits only because your amp was not capable of running two channels simultaneously. Active speakers are a different issue entirely. Another whole point of bi-amping is the ELIMINATION of passive crossovers. Any input Mr. Farrell? -- pski pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46354 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audio insanity
What a waste. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46270 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audio insanity
W.A.F. = 0 If he has one :) -- swhite58 Clark Connect Linux file server-Various boxes with flashing lights-SB3-Zhaolu D3 DAC-NAD C320BEE-Polk Monitor 4.5/Sennheiser headphones swhite58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5038 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46270 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
