Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
WhatsNext;409068 Wrote: I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. Just as in blind tests there are all sorts of factors which might mask differences, in these anecdotes of sighted tests there are all sorts of factors which might cause differences other than audible differences between the components. IMO it's unfair to criticise every blind test whilst accepting such anecdotes without question. For example... 1. What was the other equipment used? 2. When you changed the source did you change ANYTHING else in the system? 3. Did you level match the sources using noise and an SPL meter? 4. How many times did you perform the test? Were there any occasions you couldn't tell a difference which you didn't report? But in the end the simplest explanation is expectation (either expecting a difference that doesn't exist, or expecting a real difference to constitute better). The only way to account for this is with some kind of blind test, unfortunately. I say unfortunately, for it's true but I agree it's inconvenient. But in a situation like your anecdote, where the difference is heard in the time taken to walk into the room, long term listening is by all accounts not the issue which makes a blind test of some sort more practical. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
darrenyeats;409116 Wrote: Just as in blind tests there are all sorts of factors which might mask differences, in these anecdotes of sighted tests there are all sorts of factors which might cause differences other than audible differences between the components. IMO it's unfair to criticise every blind test whilst accepting such anecdotes without question. For example (not exhaustive)... 1. What was the other equipment used? 2. When you changed the source did you change ANYTHING else in the system? 3. Did you level match the sources using noise and an SPL meter? 4. How many times did you perform the test? Were there any occasions you couldn't tell a difference which you didn't report? But in the end the simplest explanation is expectation (either expecting a difference that doesn't exist, or expecting a real difference to constitute better). The only way to account for this is with some kind of blind test, unfortunately. I say unfortunately, for it's true but I agree it's inconvenient. But in a situation like your anecdote, where the difference is heard in the time taken to walk into the room, long term listening is by all accounts not needed which makes a blind test of some sort more practical. Darren We didn't change anything else in the system. The differences were of a musical nature and clearly evident. Better instrument separation, better timing and pace, and better vocal and instrumental control to name a few. It wasn't things like sweeter highs or lower bass or better soundstage. You could ajdust the volume any reasonable way you wanted and it didn't change the results. I would also take the Karik-Numerik on the road and get the same results in any decent system I placed it in. Sometimes there are just superior products. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
darren, if the only way to make valid judgements about a musical experience is with a double-blind test, how can you make a judgement about a live concert? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
JezA wrote: darren, if the only way to make valid judgements about a musical experience is with a double-blind test, how can you make a judgement about a live concert? we're not talking about judgements of a single event - I believe - we're talking about comparing two events. you could, of course, compare two concerts, perhaps on separate nights. But it is unlikely the results of that comparison would tell you much about the technical side of the audio being produced. It's well documented that expectation bias can fool the ear/brain into hearing differences that aren't there (or vice versa). That's where a blind test is useful, in producing reproducible, unbiased, results. that is irrelevant, if you're happy with the sound you're getting, of course, no question. but some people like to find out: is it really worth paying out an extra X amount? Will it really make a difference? For those people, the results of a double-blind test gives some assurance that other tests simply cannot. As an aside, we read a recent article in the hi-fi press, extolling the virtues of a particular component. The lavish results were presented to a set of friends: these included all sorts of outlandish claims as to soundstage, timing, transparency etc, etc, and the friends were asked to guess the components under test. No-one could, but tt turned out to be analogue phono cables, connecting a portable mp3 player to an amp, or powered speakers. Needless to say, the test was fully sighted, and the high-priced cable won the test. Of course, it might well be the best cable, but the test is totally unreliable, so we're none the wiser. To my mind, designing a piece of electronic kit to achieve the quoted results would be a non-trivial task. Designing a piece of wire to do the same would be impressive indeed... :) cheers, calum. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Help with ampmatching - are these specs ok?
Hi, The matching between the TP output and the amp input is really important. The relation is the following: Pmax = Umax * Umax /R The specs rate the full power of the amp Pmax = 250 W @ Umax = 33 Vrms = 1.6*20 Vrms By driving the amp directly from the TP (without analogue attenuation), you'll have to apply digital volume attenuation to avoid providing higher voltage than 1.6 Vrms If you add -10db analogue attenuation (by changing the internal jumper settings), you limit the output voltage to 0.6 Vrms. You'll therefore provide a maximum of 0.6*20 = 12 Vrms (instead of 33 Vrms) which will limit your maximal output power to 35 W. If this is not powerfull enough, you may prefer external attenuators of -6db (= 100 W) in order to get a better match. I hope this was clear. The shortest audio path is better and adding a pre-amp will just be worst as you'll add additional gain. Good luck Ligald -- ligald Transporter (wired) PC with XP Pro SP3 1GB RAM ligald's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12437 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61156 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
This is an unwinnable debate and I recognise it as such. :) In the end if you like something and can afford it then go with it. For example, I'm really getting into Darjeeling tea at the moment, but this may be more about liking the IDEA of single estate tea (loose leaf of course!) than the actual taste. Or maybe I'm doing something weird in terms of how I'm preparing the tea which skews the results. Etc. I suppose I could do a blind test versus my usual supermarket Yorkshire tea but I haven't got round to it, I'm just enjoying my tea. :) Given these caveats, I can't really state anything more than a personal preference. The problem would come if I tried to make an absolute judgment about it. Then a blind test might remove some of the caveats (but not all of course). Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
I have 5 SB3's and 3 Transporters. The quality of the DAC's in the Transporters are much higher. Are you using lossless files? If you are using MP3's you may not find much difference. What speakers are you using? What is your room like? Jim -- boxerboy boxerboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5786 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409076 Wrote: Good point. Downloaded some white noise and used my Radio Shack level meter to ensure equal volumes. It turns out that, for whatever reason, fixing volume at 100% on both the SB3 and Transporter is not enough to equalize volumes if one unit is connected using unbalanced RCA and the other using balanced XLR. In any case, volumes are now absolutely equal... Not much difference between the Transporter and SB3. Out of curiousity, what are the differences others have noted between these two in a true A/B comparison?While I don't have a Trasporter, your findings do not surprise me. Level matching using instruments (not simply ones ear) is critical. I've been fooled multiple times when comparing equipment simply because one was a bit louder. Ideally, to further eliminate bias, the test is performed blind. -- davidjames Discuss Quality Audio/Home Theater on a budget: http://www.budgetavtalk.com Blogging Soccer/Audio/Home Theater: http://blogs.netlowdown.com davidjames's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19208 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
I can hardly imagine that there will be no big difference between a Squeezebox and a Transporter. I do not own a Transporter but after having upgraded my Squeezebox with an external DAC, sound quality increased dramatically. I would expect the same from a Transporter. -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409064 Wrote: Hi, I am currently A/B'ing my SB3 and new Transporter to determine whether the significant price differential between the two units is justified, or whether the 30 day money back guarantee is the way to go. At present, I have the SB3 hooked up through its RCA analog output to a Bel Canto Pre1 which is wired via XLR to a Bel Canto 200.2 amp. The Transporter was initially hooked up to the Pre1 via RCA but is now connected using the balanced XLR connectors. I have noticed significant improvements with the Transporter but want to ensure that this is as controlled as possible. Firstly, I need to confirm that my setup is volume leveled. I have both the SB3 and Transporter synchronized with the volume set to fixed via the options menu in Squeezecenter. The volume digital readout on the Bel Canto is set to the same level for all inputs. To my ears, it sounds like the Transporter may be a little louder...but this may be a function of the lower noise floor and, overall, fuller presentation/wider soundstage/etc. If it is the latter cause, then I keep the Transporter. If, however, the perceived improvements are simply due to volumes which are not 100% identical, then I cannot possibly justify the price difference between the two and the Transporter goes back. My question is: with the aforementioned setup, is there any possible way that the volumes could be different? Does use of the XLR connector on the Transporter vs. the RCA outputs on the SB3 bias volume, all other factors being identical? Thanks in advance. If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! Second, your ears can't be trusted as they are connected to you brain that uses all available information at its disposal to make conclusions. You may ask if you're listening what other info is available? I will tell you, your eyes and any misconceptions, biases, or conclusions you have already arrived at. An Audio Engineer friend and I have proved this many times with an experiment we repeated many times with the exact same result every time. Bias and pre-conclusions win out over actual facts when one is depending on ones ears to form test results. Download the software that Phil and I have been using and eliminate the faulty part of your testing IE your brain, eyes, and ears. Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. The SB3 has a 6.0Vpp RCA line level output and the Transporter XLR is 8.5Vpp so it had better sound louder into the same pre-amp line level input! Should it sound clearer and cleaner, it should, but because of the better DAC and accompanying circuits. Not the fact that XLR has more oomph. Again the ears are misleading the conclusions and the brain is making assumptions. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: SB3, GFR-700HD, Thiel 2.3, Second Boom Home Office: SB3, NAD C370, two VSM-1 Home Gym: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, Thiel PowerPoint 1.2 House Portable: SB3, Audioengine A5 Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Expedition: SB3, ToughBook iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Man does my head hurt. After trying and trying to get some of my fellow audiophiles over at the Stereophile forum to see the light regarding music servers I've come to the conclusion that many of these audiophiles are quite simply Luddites. Link to Stereophile thread: http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0Number=62941page=0fpart=allvc=1 From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: Ludd·ite Pronunciation: \#712;l#601;-#716;d#299;t\ Function: noun Etymology: perhaps from Ned Ludd, 18th century Leicestershire workman who destroyed a knitting frame Date: 1811 : one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest ; broadly : one who is opposed to especially technological change Sure I understand how all the various file formats (lossy versus lossless, Windows versus Apple versus open source) can easily make one's head spin and yes, I get it that hard drives fail and those big bad hackers can infect your computer with nasty viruses but the overall refusal to accept the march of technological progress still sounds like the crying of a bunch of Luddites. I feel better now that I've gotten that off my chest. Seems that I can't find a nice middle ground: it's backward thinking Luddites over at Stereophile or blind adherents to DBT over here at SqueezeBox. (Note: that's not really true but it makes for a nice little soundbite. Sorry if I've offended anyone.) Aren't there any forward thinking believers in subjective testing to be found anywhere? -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
that's a great analogy, Darren :) I suppose I could do a blind test versus my usual supermarket Yorkshire tea but I haven't got round to it, I'm just enjoying my tea. :) Given these caveats, I can't really state anything more than a personal preference. The problem would come if I tried to make an absolute judgment about it. that's my problem with some of these discussions: we see quite a lot of these absolute statements. I'm not experienced enough in these matters, and so I'm looking towards two things to help me follow: - scientific explanation - blind testing but often it's hard to get either :( cheers, calum. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
If you are capable of making an absolute judgment, then you are capable of making a comparative one. I like this tea is a judgement. I like this tea a lot is another. I won't disagree with your opinion because no-one has done a double-blind trial of teas. Nor will I try and argue there's no difference and you must be deluded. Or even be influenced by strange experiments done by the Boston Tea Society comparing 30 year old cups of tea. If I'm interested, I'll try the teas myself, and draw my own conclusions. What else can you do? -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
JezA wrote: cups of tea. If I'm interested, I'll try the teas myself, and draw my own conclusions. What else can you do? exactly; but where that final test might result in spending a lot of money, I'd like to know that I'm not fooling *myself* into thinking that it really does sound better (because it costs more, or is a bit louder, or looks more impressive, etc, etc). That's where the blind testing is useful. Of course, one might argue that if the end result is the tea tastes better, then who cares whether I'm fooling myself? :) cheers, c. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Yes, there are.. they just don't tend to post rants about it. They buy the Squeezebox or Transporter, plug it in and enjoy the music. They don't need to rant about something that just works the way they want. :) -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
iPhone;409297 Wrote: If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. Not sure what prompted such an unpleasant reply. As far as incorrect/incomplete testing procedures, I am fully aware of the concept of double blind testing. Additionally, I should add that as an otolaryngologist (ENT surgeon) at a large academic center, I have been involved in setting up and running large clinical trials costing several million dollars and involving several thousand patients/controls so kindly do not presume to lecture me on expectation bias, etc. as you do below. As a result of that understanding, I am also fully aware that my procedures above do not constitute a randomized, DBT but they do consitute a simple way of delineating any major differences between the Transporter and SB3 in the comfort of one's own home. iPhone;409297 Wrote: First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! That's great. I'm well aware of this fact and of the fact that there are several measureable improvements in SNR and other engineering parameters. That does not automatically mean an improvement in sound quality. For someone who spouts pseudoscience, you fail to realize that anyone with a robust scientific background would approach the comparison between Transporter and SB3 with an understanding that the null hypothesis (ie that there is no difference in sound quality between Tp vs. SB3 regardless of all the engineering hype) is the starting point and one must gather evidence to prove that the alternative hypothesis (ie that there is a difference) is correct and not vice versa. If I'm wasting your time, feel free to read another thread and do not presume to speak for others. iPhone;409297 Wrote: Second, your ears can't be trusted as they are connected to you brain that uses all available information at its disposal to make conclusions. You may ask if you're listening what other info is available? I will tell you, your eyes and any misconceptions, biases, or conclusions you have already arrived at. An Audio Engineer friend and I have proved this many times with an experiment we repeated many times with the exact same result every time. Bias and pre-conclusions win out over actual facts when one is depending on ones ears to form test results. Download the software that Phil and I have been using and eliminate the faulty part of your testing IE your brain, eyes, and ears. Your ears are connected to your brain...really? I should keep that in mind before I go and perform that cochlear implant tomorrow morning. What actual facts were your audio engineer friend and yourself testing? The actual fact that the TP sounds better than the SB3 or various technical measurements that may/may not correlate with audible improvement? You speak of using software to eliminate the bias inherent in ones brain, eyes, and ears but we are talking about an audio device here--as in something purchased to LISTEN to music. Any comparison beyond audible differences is completely moot. What do I care if an oscilloscope demonstrates measurable differences between a TP and and SB3 if I can't hear those differences? iPhone;409297 Wrote: Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. Nowhere in my OP do I ask or suggest that XLR balanced outputs are superior/inferior/equal to RCA outs. I was simply asking if using the XLR outputs influences the volume. iPhone;409297 Wrote: The SB3 has a 6.0Vpp RCA line level output and the Transporter XLR is 8.5Vpp so it had better sound louder into the same pre-amp line level input! Should it sound clearer and cleaner, it should, but because of the better DAC and accompanying circuits. Not the fact that XLR has more oomph. Again the ears are misleading the conclusions and the brain is making assumptions. Which is precisely why I posted immediately after P. Farrell's wonderful suggestion regarding the fact that I volume leveled the SB3 and TP using a Radio Shack sound level meter. As far as misleading conclusions, my ears are all I care about in this particular comparison since, again, I plan on using the TP to listen to music rather than gather audio engineer friends and break out the oscilloscopes to start measuring. In conclusion, I believe the original post was a valid question about my experiences A/B'ing the TP and SB3. I was simply asking questions to refine my testing so that I could assess the two devices. Thus far, the majority of comments with the exception of yours seem to have offered decent advice so I'm clearly not wasting everyone's time. Thank you for your time
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
SuperQ;409338 Wrote: Yes, there are.. they just don't tend to post rants about it. They buy the Squeezebox or Transporter, plug it in and enjoy the music. They don't need to rant about something that just works the way they want. :) I didn't realize that my posts within the referenced thread came off as ranting (on the Stereophile my user name is jazzfan), if that is what is you're referring to. Or perhaps you feel that my initial post of this thread was/is a rant. Far from it I'm afraid. You should read one of my real rants - I think that you might run for cover :) Rather it's just that I get somewhat frustrated while trying to enlighten others to the some of the other options that exist when it comes to computer based audio. It seems that many people feel that the computer has to be directly connected to their stereo and that iTunes is the only front they can use to organize and play their music. Truly a sad state of affairs: either way overpriced music servers from well known high end audio manufacturers or a noisy PC connected via USB to their DAC and stereo. I guess that the name Logitech just doesn't have the proper high end cred for real audiophiles to give it so much as a second thought. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409273 Wrote: I have 5 SB3's and 3 Transporters. The quality of the DAC's in the Transporters are much higher. Are you using lossless files? If you are using MP3's you may not find much difference. What speakers are you using? What is your room like? Jim Hi Jim. I am using FLAC files. For speakers, I am using a pair of Aperion 6T which have received positive reviews from various audio magazines. Perhaps, more importantly, I have used these speakers to delineate clear differences between various CD transports. They are detailed although there is clearly always room for improvement. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Sorry, I was not thinking your post was a rant.. it's just the general feel that I got from a number of posts on the thread you linked, and the kind of posts I see on the slimdevices audiophile forum. Generalization on the fact that people who are in the middle don't feel the need to talk about it. Yes, there are some Luddites out there that just don't get it, or choose to ignore it. I tried to setup a SB3 for my mom to listen to to her music, but my dad is an Audio Luddite who likes to flip through his CDs. He unplugs the SB3 and sticks it in a shoe box and unplugs the low power PC I setup for SqueezeCenter. Oh well, you just won't be able to change some people's minds. I just give up and move on with things. Spend my energy helping people who are willing to accept it. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
SuperQ;409351 Wrote: Sorry, I was not thinking your post was a rant.. it's just the general feel that I got from a number of posts on the thread you linked, and the kind of posts I see on the slimdevices audiophile forum. Generalization on the fact that people who are in the middle don't feel the need to talk about it. Yes, there are some Luddites out there that just don't get it, or choose to ignore it. I tried to setup a SB3 for my mom to listen to to her music, but my dad is an Audio Luddite who likes to flip through his CDs. He unplugs the SB3 and sticks it in a shoe box and unplugs the low power PC I setup for SqueezeCenter. Oh well, you just won't be able to change some people's minds. I just give up and move on with things. Spend my energy helping people who are willing to accept it. I can see your point, especially in the case of your father, but the OP specifically asked about computer based audio and then proceeds to bend over backwards to convince himself that CD players are truly better. The really sad part is that very few of them understand that the negatives mentioned have nothing to do with the quality of the audio but rather with issues that pertain to computers in general. Issues that effect all computer users and so improvements are always taking place. As far as the sound quality goes, as I understand things based on all the reviews I have read, one of the best, if not the best, DAC on the market is the Linn Klimax, a networked based unit. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
I just posted a response over there. It seems like the users over there are thinking of a computer transport as playing wav files out of a PC sound card. Not as a SB/NAS solution. This is the response I posted over there if anybody is interested. Everybody in this forum already knows most of this. Hi everybody, this is my first post to this forum. So I figured I jump right into a heated discussion. I have been running a computer based transport for about 5 years. I also build and sell a computer based transport system. So Ill get right into what I have learned. 1. Computer based transports sound better a transport that is working correctly has nothing to do with sound. Its job it to get the digital music off the CD and into the DAC without mucking them up. The DAC, amp , speakers, etc produce the sound. With a mechanical transport there are many things that can keep this from happening, a scratch in the CD, mechanical vibration causing skipping, etc. With a computer transport all the data is stored in a file so it is much easier to get it to the DAC intact. If you have a $20,000 CD player, and you clean your CDs before you play them then you also should not have a problem. Its just easier and cheaper to do it with a computer. Also a note on file formats. I use only FLAC file. These are lossless so you get the same bits that were on the original CD to the DAC. 2. Computers are can get viruses and the software can get mucked up This is true. That why you should have a dedicated server for your music. The server runs an embedded operating system such as Linux so it cant get a Virus. I sell the VortexBox appliance just for this purpose. It has software to rip music to the hard disk and stream it back. Very simple software on an embedded system equals few problems. 3. Hard disk fail, what if I rip all my music and then lose my hard drive? Your CDs are also prone to failure not only do they scratch by the plastic they are made of degrades with time. CDs are designed to last 30-50 years then they start to fail. A computer hard disk is designed to spin for 5 years continuously before it should be replaced. It should last at least 10 years but the MTBF ratings are usually based on a 5 year replacement cycle. So if you are 30 now and live to be 80 you will have to replace your hard disk 10 times over your lifetime. Of course this is a moot point because 10 year from now they will have solid state storage that exceeds 1TB so it wont be a problem. 4. Backup? You bet! You should backup all you computer data. Buy a USB hard disk and copy all you music files and all you other computer data to it. Then disconnect it and put it on a shelf. 90% of computer failures are caused by electrical surges. RAID wont help you if your computer gets zapped. 5.I love the ritual of playing a CD yup, and I think nothing will ever replace Vinyl either. There is something about the smell of a Vinyl record and the cleaning solution. M But hay times change. My new ritual it controlling my music using a SqueezeCenter remote from my back yard. It can see the cover art, lyrics, etc all from my lawn chair. One ritual I dont miss is sorting all those CDs or trying to find the one Im looking for (I have over 1000) 6. Are there things that you can with a computer transport that your can do with a mechanical one? Yeah lots. Like setting up a 200 song playlist for a party. Or searching for your music by year, artist, album, etc. 7. So this sounds really cool but isnt it expensive? Its actually very inexpensive thats the best part. First you need a server like VortexBox ($359) then you need a player like the Logitech Duet ($327 on my web site). Thats $686 for a complete system. Including the full color WiFi remote. Thats not to bad compared to the cost of a good CD transport. -- agillis rip, tag, get cover art All you do is insert the CD! http://vortexbox.org agillis Lead Developer VortexBox agillis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21140 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
SuperQ;409351 Wrote: Oh well, you just won't be able to change some people's minds. I just give up and move on with things. Exactly. Those for whom toleration (of others with different views) does not come naturally, practice makes perfect. -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Hey, I'm a DBT-loving Luddite and I'm offended! Just kidding. I am actually a DBT-loving Luddite, but I'm not actually offended. Luddite is frequently a label that gets thrown at people who just have different priorities than much of society. We don't fear or hate technology, we just don't see what the big deal is. We actually like technology that fits our personal priorities. Take me. I'm a well-paid professional (in the tech industry no less) male in my thirties and have never had a cell phone. That fact alone brings conversations to screeching halts and starts people wondering if I ride a donkey to work. But here's the thing: I don't hate cell phones. I don't fear them. I simply have never NEEDED one. I already have a phone--it's at my house. If you need to get ahold of me while I'm out, I've got voicemail. If I need to get ahold of you, I'll go home and call you. All of my communication bases are covered as far as I'm concerned--no need for an upgrade. Also, FWIW my phone at home has a cord that attaches the handset to the base. I like it that way because it sounds better. No, really, no donkey. Now take your Luddite audiophile. They will buy a bag of magic rocks to make their amp sound better. They will buy green markers by the truckload. But they won't buy a networked music player. It's not as crazy as it sounds. Bags of magic rocks and green markers have a placebo effect (that's my DBT-loving side talking), don't actually make anything sound worse, and most importantly of all, they do not screw with any part of the tactile/emotional/nostalgic side of the listening experience. Networked music players do. An audiophile will tell you it's all about the sound, but they can identify their favorite albums by smell or touch. A networked music player makes music incorporeal. It does in fact get rid of part of their overall music experience, so they do not want it. Many, however, cannot square this with their belief that Hearing is the One True Sense, and they end up manufacturing fairly feeble attacks on the sound quality of networked players. It's not fear or hate so much as lack of understanding combined with the lack of any desire to learn more. Like iPhones for me. I wouldn't even recognize one if I saw it, and although a quick visit to apple.com could clear that up for me, I really don't care enough to even do that much. I like SqueezeBoxes myself. I've bought several. But I understand the joy of pulling an old cherished album out of its sleeve, and I know that I'm giving that up. There IS a downside. For me, the advantages simply outweigh that. Hell, dust allergies alone... -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
