Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
m1abrams wrote: DACs can and do sound different. A lot happens in a dac besides converting bits to analog. They all have different filtering for one. There I/V stage can be different that can drasticcaly modify the sound. And less to a degree there clocking can effect jitter which may effect the sound. no..they don't. unless you are talking about a shitty design from 1982. all competent dacs in the past 5 years or so will be indistinguishable(benchmark, grace, forssell, mytek, crane song, weiss, prism, dad, steinberg, lynx). nobody, i mean nobody will pass any DBT showing otherwise. jitter audibility--- 30,000ps for sighted and 250,000ps for blind. TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Instead of computer speakers....
Mnyb wrote: I bought a couple of ADAM A3X and the desk stands :) got interested in the brand from this forum . Instead of some plastic 5.1 speakers with a subwoofer to the computer get a stereo pair of some kind of not to expensive small neirfield monitor . http://www.adam-audio.com/en/pro-audio/products/a3x/description . Placement is not ideal yet (my new desk have yet to arrive my current is to small) but initial impression is good Jag är besviken, Mynb... I thought I had convinced you to get KH 0300s!Det var som fan!!! grr TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95039 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 2012 - Best Current Online Streaming music sources and radio
MOG here too. also use Spotify because I really like the playlist functionality here is my ultimate audiophile playlist http://open.spotify.com/user/129670382/playlist/7pDMb5UMTZubiFmAgZ2tAP TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94978 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Instead of computer speakers....
TheOctavist wrote: Jag är besviken, Mynb... I thought I had convinced you to get KH 0300s!Det var som fan!!! grr The KH won't fit ;) and cost more , I actually don't have amateur studio, I would fail playing the triangle... Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95039 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
Girls and guys, I would not be asking this question if I had not heard (I mean it!) better...! Now you might be right, or you might be wrong, that out of the touch, it won't get better. But there is live after the touch... I lately had the opportunity to have a listeing session with the wifi/lan/etc. streaming DAC of resolution audio, and I have dealt with music sufficiently long to know, that this was closer to live than what I get out my touch. However, I am not sure, where the biggest room for improvement lies. @TheOctavist: If you read my initial post here, you have seen, that I have a rather decent dac connected... @TheOctavist #2: it gets no better than perfect, friend. Well friend. You are right. But we ar still far away from perfect. Many so called audiophiles know music only from audio. Well there, it does not surprise anyobody, that they find audio just perfect. But some among us intimately know the natural, direct, unaltered sound of instruments (im mean the real natural direct sound, not just impressions out of amplified concerts...!!!) and some among us try to transport a slight memory of this (THIS) feeling into the 4 walls of our home. That is, why we know, that we are still not there, where perfect begins. And we continue looking for improvement, just to get a bit closer and again a bit closer... I can't talk for everybody here, just for me: I dont think the word audiophile matches, what I am looking for. Its not audio. Its just those short moments of the illusion of real music, trying to make them last longer and the illusion even more perfect... musicophile maybe??? I don't care. How old or young are you, Octavist? Do you remenber back there in 1982: perfect sound forever, Philipps and Sony called out, that audio equipment development had reached its top forever, the peak, Mount Everest. Now way to go further. Happyness without compromise. Well for 10 years, they said: A zero is a zero. A one is a one. Nothing can be changed or altered there. Its simple: just perfect. Nobody believed that there were other things they just had not SEEN. Well. it took 10 years Then they discovered the impact of jitter ;-) ! What we don't know today, is, what it is that makes equal strems of 0 and 1 sound differently, when thrown through different cables, different DACs that have the same chips built in, but different DC supplies. Etc. But those people who realy listen, and who really care for (its not bad if you don't, its just a choice!!!), these people indeed DO notice the difference. If you put sufficient empiric experiencies together, you will notice, that they match what is needed for a significant statistical difference that would be enough for the scientifical proof, that there IS a difference, even if we might not yet know, what the cause of it is. So its not just rainbows - its sciense. Yet not phyisical sciense, but statistical. The physicians still have to figure out where it comes from. They might eventually open wide their eyes and discover a new word, just as they discovered jitter one surprising moring... Do it like Aristoteles told us: Measure, what you can measure. And make measurable, what you cannot measure yet. (What he did not say, but its self-evident: Do not just ignore IT because you don't have the instruments yet, to measure IT). So long for perfect... you provoked me :) I did not want to enter into this discussion, as it is really odd... Some believe in what they see on a measuring screen, others believe what they hear, some hear differences, others not. Lets everybody live in peace together :) So to reiniterate the question: I am NOT (NOT!!!) asking whether the Touch is perfect or not!!! I am just asking, what is the best way to get digital s/pdif or usb data out of a squeezebox (be it touch, transporter or whatever), to feed a good DAC. Has anyone made other (listening!!!) experiencies??? Thanks! diego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40897 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
TheOctavist wrote: no..they don't. unless you are talking about a shitty design from 1982. all competent dacs in the past 5 years or so will be indistinguishable(benchmark, grace, forssell, mytek, crane song, weiss, prism, dad, steinberg, lynx). nobody, i mean nobody will pass any DBT showing otherwise. jitter audibility--- 30,000ps for sighted and 250,000ps for blind. Apologies for this being slightly off topic but I am in the process of identifying a 'good' dac to purchase and wondered when you say that all competent dacs are indistinguishable are you referring to a particular design approach or purchase price point? If so, other than your list of manufacturers above, how would you identify a 'competent' dac? I understand that I will ultimately need to let my own ears be the final arbiter, preferably in a DBT environment, but first I must identify a list of potential candidate dacs to choose from hence the question. russelc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37254 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
I agree several posters have kept to theoretical matters. But myself and TheOctavist have given you our listening experiences, which is what you asked for. It's up to you whether you like them or not (apparently not). Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
diego wrote: However, with the upgrade I put in, it will support asynchronous USB, and as far as I understood, this means, that the clock is provided by the DAC instead of the computer (aka the SBT). So in this case, the touch via async USB would be the choice... Do you agree? Well, this thread seems to have moved on a bit (towards the same old tedious argument that 99% of threads in this forum eventually arrive at), but seeing as you asked *IF* you want to obsess about making sure jitter is minimised, then yes, I agree that in the context of your DAC, an asynchronous USB feed is the correct solution, as it's the only way you can ensure that the DAC's own clock is used as the master. However, the only properly-controlled studies into the effects of jitter on audio playback I have ever seen (Benjamin Gannon, 1998; and Ashihara et al, 2005) came to the conclusion that really quite high levels of jitter (20nS+) makes no audible difference to normal music programme material. So striving to achieve the lowest possible jitter might be a wild goose chase. You say you've heard better and want to try and get there. But when you heard that, was the system and the listening room the same? Were you in the same frame of mind? What was the weather like? All of these things will affect what you hear far more than the transport and DAC. I have an anecdote that I like to trot out at times like these. Once in my life - just once - I heard a solid, 3D, holographic image of a jazz band in my living room. The kind you can walk up to and put your hand on the trombine player's shoulder. It was when playing a vinyl LP through a pair of speakers well known for their lack of imaging capability (Linn Isobariks). I played the same LP the next day and the effect was gone. I've never heard it again. What you hear is far more to do with what your brain gets up to than the actual soundfield produced by the stereo system. cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
cliveb wrote: I have an anecdote that I like to trot out at times like these... What you hear is far more to do with what your brain gets up to than the actual soundfield produced by the stereo system. Of course! And that is why, the best test setup sometimes may fail. If you hear the same track twice in a double blind setup, you might have another mindset the first and the second time you listen... That is, why I trust my long time listening experience much more than fast comparisons. Its over time that I notice improvements or degradations. When I get more frequently those moments where I just have no choice than to sit down and listen, and I close the eyes and see the orchestra, jazz band, or dee Dee B., then it is, because a change happened. The last time I noticed that, was, when I had to send my touch back to Logitech. It had stoped working one day and went to repair... I got a brand new one back. All right. I connected it and it was just aweful. Really. It was audio and not music, I guess, you know what I mean. I tried all my well know tracks. Everywhere the same. I noticed even harshness in the treble where it had never been as far as I remembered. I gave up and listening was just background for a couple of weeks. Then one day I was pleased of what I heard (on Winston Mankunku Ngozi, Abantwana Be Africa (Children of Africa), a wonderful CD by the way) - and I sat down again... Just great! After a couple of more such experiencies it was clear for me, that something changed. Nut just a subtle thing. Really dramatically. I had not changed anything in the setup! But the sound was just again like i remembered it as it was before: With my previous Touch, before it went to repair. Now I guess there is already a thread, probably discussed passionately, about the effects or not of breaking in (although the 0 and 1s look the same ;-) ), so please let's do not start here with this question, but anyway, I have no other explanation to what I observed. So far for my anectote. So again: I will connect my Touch by async USB as soon as my DAC is upgraded and I find time to do so, and I will let you know whether there is improvement or not. You might be right: s/pdf is usually rated better than USB, so the result may be better, worse, different or just the same, I do not have any particular expectation. I won't even try to justify my investment: The upgrade is not expensive and it is mainly made for the possiblity of connecting a computer, so it makes sense anyway, even if the Touch keeps sounding better through s/pdif. darrenyeats wrote: I agree several posters have kept to theoretical matters. But myself and TheOctavist have given you our listening experiences. They may or may not coincide with your views (apparently they don't) but they are what you asked for. @darrenyeats: Yes. I appreciat that, and I thanked you for that yesterday! @TheOctavist: And I thank TheOctavist too, in particular for the listening testimonial part of his post! diego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40897 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
TheOctavist wrote: no..they don't. unless you are talking about a shitty design from 1982. all competent dacs in the past 5 years or so will be indistinguishable(benchmark, grace, forssell, mytek, crane song, weiss, prism, dad, steinberg, lynx). nobody, i mean nobody will pass any DBT showing otherwise. jitter audibility--- 30,000ps for sighted and 250,000ps for blind. I'm curious, what is the measured jitter for the DAC in the SB Touch? I'm wondering if an external DAC makes any audible difference at all. So far I have tested by plugging my Touch into both analogue in an coaxial to my AV receiver and I can't tell them apart. Jake72's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=45170 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
In terms of direct experience, I can report that I could not detect any difference (in a double blind test) between the optical out and coax out of my touch feeding a benchmark DAC1. All Bluejeans cables, including two types of toslink I happened to have. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
ps. Unmodified Touch garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
garym wrote: In terms of direct experience, I can report that I could not detect any difference (in a double blind test) between the optical out and coax out of my touch feeding a benchmark DAC1. All Bluejeans cables, including two types of toslink I happened to have. garym wrote: ps. Unmodified Touch There's the problem: you are using a stock SB Touch. Chances are that you not listening to music but only to jitter. Also did you happen to tie the blindfold over your ears as well as your eyes? ;) :) ;) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
Damn, and I thought the distortion was just in Jimi Hendrix's guitar. ;-) garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
Is running Fidelizer (or other server mods/tools) on the LMS server system beneficial in any way to EDO app or the SBT its Also, is server decoding to PCM helpful? lake_eleven's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48979 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
russelc wrote: Apologies for this being slightly off topic but I am in the process of identifying a 'good' dac to purchase and wondered when you say that all competent dacs are indistinguishable are you referring to a particular design approach or purchase price point? If so, other than your list of manufacturers above, how would you identify a 'competent' dac? I understand that I will ultimately need to let my own ears be the final arbiter, preferably in a DBT environment, but first I must identify a list of potential candidate dacs to choose from hence the question. low noise, flat response across the audible band, low IMD, etc. I personally believe that the pro audio DACs are the best quality. they are built to last, built to be sonically transparent, etc. TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
Jake72 wrote: mplying that all modern 24 bit DACs and ADCs of reasonable quality are essentially completely transparent or 'perfect' to human hearing. yep! thats the point! the one that audiophiles miss by a country mile.. http://www.stereophile.com/content/logitech-squeezebox-touch-network-music-player-measurements Like the Centrance DACport, which I reviewed in June, Logitech's Squeezebox Touch offers excellent audio engineering with no sign that it has been compromised to reach its low price point. This is especially commendable when you consider that, in addition to its audio circuitry, the Touch includes a Linux-based server complete with touchscreen display. I am amazed that all this can be done for $299.99.John Atkinson TheOctavist's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
sorry, benchmark, not cambridge, nice name too however :) diego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40897 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Triode's USB 24/192 plug in - sound quality impressions
lake_eleven wrote: Is running Fidelizer (or other server mods/tools) on the LMS server system beneficial in any way to EDO app or the SBT its Also, is server decoding to PCM helpful? No and No . Touch is not a sound card so whatever happens in audio drivers etc on the server is irrelevant . And so is any other process optimisation at the server as long as the network can keep the players buffer full . That's the beauty of the squeezebox design any server sound the same, not like when connecting a pc directly to a DAC via spdiff or USB then I can imagine that there is cause for some concerns . Server decoding can actually be helpful for lossy formats, an mp3 decoder like lame works and sounds better than the onboard options this effect is not always audible on all mp3's btw so no panic . But for lossles formats like FLAC no way ! However if you use ALAC or AIFF Touch can be buggy and some files like 24/96 won't work properly . If you have droves of 24/96 ALAC or aiff files you might set those to server decoding, just to make them work in all circumstances ( if they work sound is the same here to ) A reason why this myth that WAV is better than FLAC might persist is replay gain tags in FLAC files . In such case you can end up with WAV files that are simply louder than the FLAC file. unless you turn off the squeezebox replay gain and smart gain functions, I have all those off I don't mind twiddle on the volume controll a bit, in fact I find perfectly natural :) why should not different kinds of music have different loudness ? Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=94855 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
diego wrote: JH was not playing, he was singing... but if your stock touch with a bit of cambridge helps you not to break your ears, you are all set, so just don't change anything. Try a hires file of Phil Collins, it will surely bring a big smile onto your face! Hi-Rez Phil Collins is just like lo-rez Phil Collins but even more 1980's and more bald! And Hendrix sang in addition to playing the cello. Who knew? Man, I have to get asynchronous USB, the jitter is just killing the music. :) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
Not to knock anyone's musical taste, but I own over 10,000 CDs but not a single Phil Collins solo disk. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
Back to serious, we start to agree in one point... (however, most of Genesis was not of a significantly different level, but we were in another age, I hope this is enough for forgivness) diego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40897 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Seeking the BEST S/PDIF or USB Squeezebox! Transport, Touch or receiver/duet? Mods?
Agree. ;-) garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95031 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
