Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I have never encountered any discs cut from inside to out, although I > agree that many orchestral composers could not resist a grand finale. > And why not? They hadn't even dreamt of the possibility of recorded > sound, they were writing for live concert audiences. When I worked at BBC External Services (1968-71) we still had sets of 78rpm transcription discs of some long works. The records in the set were always cut alternately outside-in then inside-out. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the shorter groove length at the inside of the disc results in impaired fidelity. When playing the set, if all discs were cut outside-in, the change in quality from one side to the next was quite obvious. The transition from inner groove to inner groove followed by outer groove to outer groove (and so on through the set) eliminated this problem. ftlight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5294 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
You should really give up teaching... Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > How does speech recognition ability in hearing damaged patients when > using amplification translate to audio "quality" discernment in hifi > terms? > > For the former I could draw the same conclusions about speech > recognition ability when talking with a Glaswegian. > If you can't figure out the rotten logic in that statement by yourself "drmatt" you are truly hopeless. Hint for the clueless: In any experiment we try to hold as many things constant as possible. IOW, if we test the intelligibility while listening to a Glaswegian while listening over a high quality system with a Glaswegian, then we also use a Glaswegian for the test of the low quality system. Of course there is a problem in that the second experiment is affected by some learning that takes place in the first. On the chance "drmatt" that you are actually teachable, here is a good presentation about experimental design: https://www.sciencenc.com/event-help/examples/exp%20design.ppt > > How is this mechanism related to the concept of noting changes to tone > of hifi equipment? > ditto. The question is easy to figure out based on personal observation provided one has a reasonably open mind. Everybody with any real world experience has struggled to understand the meaning of speech under dire auditory conditions, except perhaps you, "drmatt". Please come back when you stop fighting with obvious facts. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Hi Arny! Hope you slept well. Thank you for another very full & informative answer - I'm learning something new everyday on this forum, which is something I value. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi Arny! > > I1. Is it your position that all reasonably well-implemented DAC's will > be *-audibly-* indistinguishable from one another (& themselves from > 16bit/44.1kHz PCM upwards), unless the unit has been specifically > designed to modify the sound in some way (which to my mind would be > contrary to the objectives of high fidelity sound reproduction)? > It is not my position, it is a reasonably easy to observe scientific fact. Just abandon relying exclusively on sighted and otherwise defective listening tests. > > > 2. Why do CD's, DVD's & Blu-Ray discs play from the inner available > radius outwards, when LP's (& 78's) work from the outside available > radius inwards? I presume that there is some engineering/practical > benefit from this inversion? > It depend, partially because there is another variable with optical discs, that is whether they are CAV (constant angular velocity or constant rotational speed) or CLV (constant linear velocity which implies that the rotational speed is higher near the center of the disc). They can be cut either way. I've seen vinyl discs cut from the center, but it only really makes sense in context if the disc is full. Of course cutting lathes can have variable pitch, and so the disc can appear to be full, regardless. If a disc is played with constant linear speed (IOW spins faster near the middle than the edge and follows the rule that the groove's linear speed remains the same) then some of the justifications for starting at the middle go away. But at least one remains, and that is that the grooves are less susceptible to scratching due to handling near the middle of the disc. Look at some scratched discs, the scratches often are worse around the edige. If you start at the middle then you optimized the use of that space that is less likely to be damaged. If you load the disc and track it with an automated mechanism, then the grooves or tracks are always at the same place when you start near the middle, regardless of the length of the program material on the disc. If a disc is played with constant rotational speed, then the amount of information per lineal inch of groove is maximized, and more susceptible to all sorts of problems, near the middle of the disc. The outer grooves become preferred (in the case of the LP) with less distortion and better frequency response at high frequencies. OTOH warp wow is usually maximized at the outside edge, and minimized towards the center. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I have never encountered any discs cut from inside to out Long ago the band of the student union at my university did one with the groove going from inside out. If you started at the outer end, the needle got stuck in the secret backwards-recorded message "you are playing the wrong way around". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
cliveb wrote: > Analogue records: distortion is greater towards the centre of the disc, > because the constant angular rotation speed means that there is less > linear space to contain the cut waveform. So it makes sense to start the > cut towards the outer edge, so the minimum amount of the cut occupies > the area where the distortion is greatest. > Of course if you can calculate exactly how much space will be needed for > the side, you could start the cut at the appropriate position so that > the end of the side is close to the outer edge. And when you consider > that many works (especially classical) tend to climax at the end, this > would make sense - the most complex part of the waveform would be > located where the distortion is at its lowest. (In fact I have a vague > recollection that there have been records cut that way in the past). Hi Clive! Your comments are certainly valid regarding the problem of constant angular velocity (i.e. 33 1/3 r.p.m. for LP's) causing the stylus groove velocity to reduce as the circumference (well, almost!) of the spiral groove is reduced while traversing the surface of the LP. There is of course also the problem of trying to control the correct alignment of the stylus in the groove when using a tangential arm, the effect of which is magnified as the radius of the groove reduces. I have never encountered any discs cut from inside to out, although I agree that many orchestral composers could not resist a grand finale. And why not? They hadn't even dreamt of the possibility of recorded sound, they were writing for live concert audiences. I do know that it was common practice to use an advance monitoring head to detect the amplitude of the next few bars of music, and to use this to adjust the groove spacing dynamically as the master disc was cut: this is why you can "see" the loud & quiet passages when you look almost any large-scale classical music LP. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > > 2. Why do CD's, DVD's & Blu-Ray discs play from the inner available > radius outwards, when LP's (& 78's) work from the outside available > radius inwards? I presume that there is some engineering/practical > benefit from this inversion? While I don't know for sure, there are some obvious reasons that make engineering sense: 1. Optical discs: these spin at fairly high rates and any imbalance that causes wobbling can make life harder for the laser pickup servos. The degree of wobble will be much smaller at the centre of the disc. Unless the disc is long (ie. 70+ mins), starting at the centre means there is less liklihood of laser tracking failure. 2. Analogue records: distortion is greater towards the centre of the disc, because the constant angular rotation speed means that there is less linear space to contain the cut waveform. So it makes sense to start the cut towards the outer edge, so the minimum amount of the cut occupies the area where the distortion is greatest. Of course if you can calculate exactly how much space will be needed for the side, you could start the cut at the appropriate position so that the end of the side is close to the outer edge. And when you consider that many works (especially classical) tend to climax at the end, this would make sense - the most complex part of the waveform would be located where the distortion is at its lowest. (In fact I have a vague recollection that there have been records cut that way in the past). Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
drmatt wrote: > How does speech recognition ability in hearing damaged patients when > using amplification translate to audio "quality" discernment in hifi > terms? > > For the former I could draw the same conclusions about speech > recognition ability when talking with a Glaswegian. > > How is this mechanism related to the concept of noting changes to tone > of hifi equipment? > > Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk Hi doc! Not a medic myself, but I believe that some of the latest (=expensive, need it buy it yourself... ) hearing aids have a pretty wide frequency range if needed purely for amplification purposes. However there are lots of different kinds of hearing impairment, so I would imagine the precise nature of the actual hearing impairment would be critical in determining the sufferer's ability to listen to music enjoyably. As an extreme example, I would offer severe tinnitus which apparently can be so bad that another person located next to the sufferer can hear the ringing for themselves! It's hard to see how one could listen -through- that level of interference, although vinyl fans will appreciate that with practice it is possible to some extent to listen through the low amplitude constant surface noise which has a regular frequency profile, and that the inevitable pops & crackles are partly "tuned out" by the mechanism that Arny has already explained by which our hearing is designed to reduce the impact of high amplitude but short duration sounds so that we can detect the quiet sounds that might indicate the presence of a real threat to our continued existence. One can only hope that Natural Selection continues to regard this trait as valuable for the benefit of future generations - otherwise they may not be able to appreciate solo piano music as we do if I have understood Arny's point correctly. So I should imagine that some hearing impairment sufferers can continue to enjoy their music, whereas others would have to seek solace elsewhere. As regards Glaswegians, I may have been unlucky insofar as the ones that I have actually encountered didn't seem to have much interesting conversation about them once I'd deciphered the dialect, and moreover seemed to exhibit a somewhat bellicose approach to life, especially when mullered which seemed also to be a regular condition. I am not casting aspersions at ALL Glaswegians since I haven't met them all & I wouldn't want to generalise. However given the limited amount of time now at my disposal, I am not actively seeking to meet any more of them. This is obviously not politically correct of me, but then some people don't like Brummies either... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Hi Arny! I shall be delighted to follow up your recommended reading list, which on the basis of my experience of your pearls of wisdom so far I expect to be both apposite and educational, but also somewhat of a heavy read. I would not wish to make any premature comments until I have had time to read them through sufficiently often to ingest their significance to the best of my ability. I'm going to venture a couple of questions one of which at least I'm pretty sure will not be covered by your leads - if the other one is, then accept my apologies in advance. I'm really not on here to waste your time repeating yourself. -[Takes deep breath] - 1. Is it your position that all reasonably well-implemented DAC's will be *-audibly-* indistinguishable, unless the unit has been specifically designed to modify the sound in some way (which to my mind would be contrary to the objectives of high fidelity sound reproduction)? 2. Why do CD's, DVD's & Blu-Ray discs record from the inner available radius outwards, when LP's (& 78's) work from the outside available radius inwards? I presume that there is some engineering/practical benefit from this inversion? Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
How does speech recognition ability in hearing damaged patients when using amplification translate to audio "quality" discernment in hifi terms? For the former I could draw the same conclusions about speech recognition ability when talking with a Glaswegian. How is this mechanism related to the concept of noting changes to tone of hifi equipment? Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > I don't see a problem with perceptual acclimatization, except confusing > it with some kind of mysterious hardware changes that we can't measure. > It is part of how humans work. Enjoy! Thanks for your reassurance. I hope you will have had a good sleep by the time you read this! Cheers, Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Morning Arny! > > Do you think that my symptoms, given my relatively advanced age, are > sufficiently severe that I should actively seek medical assistance? > > TBH, my experiences with the medical profession in the past suggest that > they have little more to offer me that our cash-strapped NHS would > actually be willing to pay for... > > Listening to a 2009 re-master of King Crimson's "21st Century Schizoid > Man" just now & reflecting on the bizarre way in which Life seemingly > often imitates Art. > > Dave (mildly concerned, not actually- worried-, yet - no suitable > emoticon available for this feeling) I don't see a problem with perceptual acclimatization, except confusing it with some kind of mysterious hardware changes that we can't measure. It is part of how humans work. Enjoy! arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi Wombat! > > We've actually hijacked this thread, but it had gone so spectacularly > off-topic before I intervened that I didn't think anyone would notice... > > Just at this moment, I'm enjoying Ozawa's 1967 recording of Messiaen's > Turangalila (here's a circumflex missing there that I can't be bothered > to look for) Symphony which is something of an acquired taste so my > neighbours are probably disliking me more than usual if any of them are > in. No actual complaints though, so I'm pressing on. > > Somewhat tragically from the sceptical objectivist viewpoint that I am > fending off, I still have to report that I'm enjoying it immensely & > hearing more clarity in its very dense & hectic soundstage than I > believe I've ever heard before. Could be retail therapy self-delusion of > course but since I'm in it for the musical experience I'm not really > that bothered. > This would appear to be yet another rendition of the audiophile myth that people with the scientific viewpoint can't possibly enjoy art or beauty. In fact enjoying music is no tragedy for most of us. In fact, by means of science we do away with all kinds of audiophile myths that might distract us or waste our time with irrelevant activities such as meaningless pretend upgrades, and thus we can more rapidly progress past the mere mechanics of assembling a good system, and getting down to enjoying the music. > > As regards the dreaded rigorous audio double-blind trial, I'm still on > it. Have access to the equipment necessary to achieve 0.1dB (or > whatever) subliminal level matching but am realising that to do the > thing properly I'm going to have to make a switchbox since the only > thing I could find commercially available costs a ludicrous $1000 > (before shipping, insurance & UK import duty/VAT), appears to be full of > active components I don't understand the need for, & only supports > unbalanced interconnects which is just not the way I roll. > > I have sought expert assistance from a surprising source to try to > ensure I don't waste my time fabricating a dud. > Why not do something crazy like educate yourself from more conventional sources? There is an international standard from the ITU/EBU called Bs1116. Obtain it here: https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.1116-3-201502-I/en There are also some informal discussions of it for example: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,16295.0.html Before doing the hardware abs you can get familiar with the basic test methodology by means of the FOOBAR2000 ABX Comparator sofrware - a free download: http://www.foobar2000.org/download http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx > > > I'm a bit concerned that the conventional wisdom seems to be to switch > sources within 20 seconds on the back of a theory that you can't > accurately remember any further back than that. > That is sorta true, but it vastly understates the problem. Our ability to reliably detect small audible differences starts going away within a second. However, that does not mean that you can only listen to 1 second snippets. Actually, one hallmark of ABX is flull listener control over the listening session. We designed the process and the ABX comparator so that you could lock yourself in a room and cozy up with your gear and music and listen as you will, and write down the conclusions you reach, and the results would be scientifically valid. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
arnyk wrote: > Not only is it possible, in the case of audio electronics burn in, it is > certain. > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1401514 > > https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/55ea/6a249bbd13570213e217e9ad9cb1ddc2fc9e.pdf > > etc. > > search string: perceptual acclimatization Morning Arny! Do you think that my symptoms, given my relatively advanced age, are sufficiently severe that I should actively seek medical assistance? TBH, my experiences with the medical profession in the past suggest that they have little more to offer me that our cash-strapped NHS would actually be willing to pay for... Listening to a 2009 re-master of King Crimson's "21st Century Schizoid Man" just now & reflecting on the bizarre way in which Life seemingly often imitates Art. Dave (mildly concerned, not actually- worried-, yet - no suitable emoticon available for this feeling) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi Clive! > > A possible rational explanation for my "persistent delusion" is that it > is not the Brokkly DAC burning-in but rather my hearing and/or brain > burning out. > > Not only is it possible, in the case of audio electronics burn in, it is certain. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1401514 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/55ea/6a249bbd13570213e217e9ad9cb1ddc2fc9e.pdf etc. search string: perceptual acclimatization arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC on Transporter: best output option
cliveb wrote: > Of course the beauty with so-called burn-in is that it's impossible to > ABX. > You can't ABX two samples of a device - one burned in and the other not > - because of course there could be sample variation between the two. > So the audiofools just love it and hold dearly to the concept. > I wonder if Arny knows of a scientific method to show that burn-in > doesn't happen? I do, but I have no hope of it working with true believers in burn in. Basically, you record the output of the device very nicely, before and after the burn in. Then you use a Software ABX box like FOOBAR2000 ABX to compare the two. The obvious GE complaint is that my recording obscures the effects of burn in. Interesting how these obvious, mind-blowing effects become so fragile and subtle when you actually try to investigate them. ;-) arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106519 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
