Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
I'm curious as to exactly what tests an engineer would enact to compare two cables. What specific measurements would be taken? Are these tests complete enough to truly be able to replicate all of the elements involved in our hearing? I'm reminded of the many debates that have been posted on this forum about jitter. If I remember correctly, someone posted that the ability to test for jitter and in fact even the comprehension of the possibility of such a phenomenon did not occur until sometime after digital audio was created. During this time period did people argue about the sound of one converter vs another? If jitter was introduced into the signal path (let's assume there was some sort of cause without getting caught up in this detail) and was more prevalent in one design than another, it would not have shown up in any tests during that time period. Without a test or a term for the difference in sound quality between the two units, an argument could be made in a forum that if they had similar measurements there should be no sonic difference between the two units. Again, I'm not saying anything about the 7k cable. I have no idea of it's value or sonic impact. But with regard to the ability to measure the impact of one cable versus another, is it possible that we have not yet identified the qualifying variable and as a result have not come up with an appropriate test? Food for thought? Maybe I'm way off base. It's late this evening... __ Transporter = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT Ayre C5XE = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to provecables areworth money
If I had to guess at what the difference is between a better performing cable and an inferior cable, for instance the Belden 1800f vs Monster cable or Whirlwind as the inferior cable, it would be a combination of frequency response and distortion. The more accurate the playback equipment and room, the more influential small amounts of distortion or frequency irregularities will impact the overall sound. What I have found as that I have upgraded my system, new flaws that were imperceptible (or masked by bigger problems) before are found and become more difficult to solve. For instance, upgrading to a more expensive cd player or DAC like the SB3 to the Transporter is a fairly easy change to make, it just requires additional funds and the knowledge or experimentation to determine which of the more expensive CD units are worth it. Some companies are marketing based, others are engineering based and if I'm spending a large amount of money on audio gear, I'd rather buy one where the funds have gone into engineering. However, once you have high performance from your amps, speakers, and source, and improved room acoustics, the cabling and power while making less noticeable or less cost efficient differences in the beginning, now must be focused on to improve the level of the system. Just as acousticians discuss improving the acoustics so that the room can handle higher levels of spl without adding acoustic distortion, as you listen at higher volumes the impact of distortion and coloration by cables becomes readily apparent. I'm not familiar with the measurements for distortion. Can they measure the full frequency spectrum? If there is an analog form of jitter induced by cabling that increases harshness on transients and clouds the audio information by creating random electronic micro-echoes of the signal due to timing irregularities of the signal, would this be measured by today's distortion test? I'd like to volunteer my system for testing if anyone else in the San Francisco Bay Area would like to conduct these electrical tests or even double blind testing. The ATC speakers I use are known for their exceptionally low distortion and uniquely precise accuracy and imaging, among other engineering advances, and are used by top mastering engineers, recording engineers, movie scoring stages, composers, and performers. I'm including this as both a shameless plug (I'm in the process of opening a showroom) and because I think they are unique at highlighting sonic differences in things like cables. Speakers are only as good as the information you feed them and the room they are in, and you will never be able to hear what your speakers can't recreate accurately. _ Transporter - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM100ASLT Ayre C5xe - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM100ASLT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Integrated amp versus active speakers
I think Adam's comment makes a lot of sense. If you are not feeling like something needs to be improved and aren't haunted by something else that you have heard, you might just be in a perfect place to really enjoy your music collection and add to it. There is always something better, but if I could go back in time and not be exposed to better sound systems, I'd be enjoying my old system and would have a lot more money...and perhaps be just as happy. Reminds me of Pandora's box. One positive for active speakers is that the manufacturer has matched the amplifier to the speaker and possibly put the crossover before the amplifiers so that the amplifiers are operating in a more efficient manner. IMHO I think this lends itself to a better cost to value ratio than finding your own amp to match. The Transporter makes a fantastic pre-amp to drive an amplifier or active speakers directly, and a dedicated preamp that would surpass the performance of this setup is extremely expensive, so I think you are focusing on the right areas. You might also want to review your acoustics and see if minor, inexpensive changes might increase your performance more than the other upgrades you mentioned. Transporter - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM100ASLT Ayre C5xe - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM100ASLT adamslim;234685 Wrote: Do you answer your own question? You can always get something better, but surely it's best to wait until you have heard something so hauntingly good that you've just got to have it? In that case, rather than try to tweak what you have or undertake things that 'should' improve your system, you can make whatever step change is necessary. I'd save your money right now. HTH Adam -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39239 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Integrated amp versus active speakers
Yes, in a good active speaker design, they will put the crossover before the amps. Running longer xlr interconnects is usually preferred to running long speaker lines as there is less potential for interference due to the balanced design and interconnects are usually cheaper than speaker cable. With regard to amplification, Class A is considered to be the premium analog amplifier design while Class D stands for digital amplification. I don't believe that you will increase the distortion or power consumption by using an amplifier in an active speaker. While it is true that the amps will be at full volume, typically this is done in a separates setup anyway. The amps are at full power and the pre-amp is used to control the volume. Currently you are using an integrated pre-amp and amplifier which with regard to sound quality is considered inferior to having the amps and pre-amp separated. So to get to the next level of amplifier/pre-amplifier performance you would be faced with the power consumption issue either way. Hopefully someone can educate us as to the power consumption of amplifiers. I don't believe they consume as much left on with low volume playback or with nothing on compared to playback at full volume. Hope this helps, Will Transporter - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM100ASLT Ayre C5xe - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM100ASLT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39239 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
of the recording and experience any distortion or coloration that might mask detail. Sometimes just hitting a higher volume level will reveal a cable's harshness on transients. And for anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area, you are welcome to make the tests at my home. I do hope to have an audio showroom open one of these days and I may even sell one brand of high end cables. Then again, I've never tested them against any other high end cables. Might there be a better cable at a lesser pricepoint? ...another headache in my quest to create a business based on my passion, music. I hope I haven't branded myself negatively on this forum forever... Will _ Transporter - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM 100 ASLT Ayre C5xe - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM 100 ASLT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
Will your local dealers let you take home the power cables and test them yourself? If a dealer will let you take home a power conditioner and all the cables you need to power your system with a no questions asked return policy, why not take them home and try them. Personally, I'm very surprised at what a difference power conditioning and good power cables make. But I'm not sure how good my power is to begin with (if that makes a difference), and I couldn't begin to explain why a power cable would make a difference. Nor could I tell you what brand is the best. But it makes a difference in my system that I can hear and I really appreciate. I would never go back to regular power or cables. I wholeheartedly agree with your skepticism and belief that everyone should think for oneself, and again I would add to listen as well. My neck is starting to quiver. Will _ Transporter - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM 100 ASLT Ayre C5xe - ATC SCA2 - ATC SCM 100 ASLT AngorWatts;233968 Wrote: Ok so I have some mixed feelings on this whole cable thing, I have decent cables under $100 per cable/pair or half that price. I have a lot of heartburn with all this smoke and mirrors routine for ultra expensive audio cables and now power cables are the flavor of the day. I have been to CES the last four years and have seen and listened to some amazing gear, and talked to the designers and owners of the companies. I get the The Absolute Sound, Stereo review and read like a fiend about audio on the internet. I have a decent audio system. I truly love high end audio. I write this to let everyone know I have some idea of the industry as a whole. Ok so when cables or equipment are reviewed, there are some prerequisites like you will advertise with the publication, as is seen with that companies who's equipment was just reviewed ad on the next page probably half the time. Coincedence? Things that make you go H?! Also the reviewer should have to state a few facts besides what is his test gear that he is employing this test component or cable into, like does he live in an apartment(almost always yes!).Which leads me to the next disclosure, size of room that gear is in. The enviroment of the review has a high possibility of being terrible. But I guess as long as he has a $1700 Shunyata power chord it will magically overcome all this. And finally one of the biggest disclosures these audio reviewers should have to disclose is a recent hearing test to show where their hearing is lacking, if it is. I mean Kal Ruben is how old? In your fifty's your upper frequency hearing loss can drop down to somewhere below 10,000 hz. If we knew the reviewer lived in a little crappy apartment with a tiny listening room with a flawed apartment wiring in San Francisco or L.A., and has flawed hearing(ie hearing test). How much weight would that review hold for the majority. No reviewer wants a blind a/b comparison there is nothing monitarily to gain for anyone except the buyer. I am saying maybe we should think for ourselves, and not be told what we should like from someone who might not have the creditionals. -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Million dollars to prove cables areworth money
When I set up my listening room, I read as many articles as I could on whether power and cables make an impact on fidelity. It was impossible to determine which camp was right as both seemed to assert their perspective. When I finally listened and made my own comparisons, I was shocked at the results. I think the key is to listen, in your own environment, or somewhere you can take your time and be in control of the testing environment. Just my .02 for any one else who is seeking to answer this question for themselves. __ Transporter = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT Ayre C5XE = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38902 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
A little surprised the reviewer used Yamaha NS1000M speaker... I think the Linn release will be great for our community of users as it might introduce a whole new group of high end listener types who want the best performance from a network music player. I'm already curious as to how our forum's jitter experts will break down the jitter and distortion specifications listed in the Linn review. Given the discussions about the desire for a less expensive Transporter sans DAC that could be coupled with a higher grade* DAC than the Transporter, perhaps this announcement will put into perspective the price and functionality of the Transporter. While it would be great if Slim Devices were to create the slimmed down Transporter, and one could wait in hopes of its creation, maybe we are lucky to already have the ability to match a word-clocked Transporter to an external DAC of our choice. Certainly the combination should cost significantly less than $20k. *Please note that I am in no way disparaging the quality of the Transporter's built in DAC. I think it is excellent for the price-point. ___ Transporter = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT Ayre C5XE = ATC SCA2 = ATC SCM 100SL AT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Parametric Equalizer?
Thought you might like to know (if you don't already) that Meridian handles room correction in the same way, focusing only on bass and leaving all other frequencies unaffected. darrenyeats;230598 Wrote: I use a 33 band parametric equaliser with InguzEQ. This is because I have a Stereophile test disc with 31 tones on it and an SPL meter :-) You can enter as many bands as you like into the xml file and it works - you're not limited to the GUI plugin's 9 bands. Not ideal - I know EQ does not equal DRC - but it sounds better than without EQ *overall*. Definitely a stop-gap. Hugh is going to enhance InguzEQ at some point - there is a problem with localisation of the bands' effects. I think they stamp on each other too much at the moment. For example, in the bass where there are wild fluctuations in close proximity it's impossible to get precise cancellations. Once this is there, I plan to upgrade my system to get as flat a response as possible. I imagine the bass will be impossible...and I'll use the Inguz for that. I am not embarking on DRC until I can do it only in the bass...and I KNOW I have a properly calibrated mic. Otherwise I don't see the point. Standing where I am now, ideally I would use neither DRC nor EQ above the bass...but I'll test things out when the time comes. Darren -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38739 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Parametric Equalizer?
I'm having a hard time finding references on the web to the phase accuracy of the VST plug-ins from Sonnox Oxford (formerly Sony Oxford) so I can't verify if they are phase accurate. They have a George Massenburg option (emulates a GML 8200) for Protools. From what I've heard they are excellent software equalizers. A linear phase accurate software equalizer that high-end listeners could use for program eq and if necessary, room eq (I fall into the acoustic treatment is better category), would be a great addition to the network music player world. Wouldn't it be great to have the capability to occasionally re-eq an old recording that was transferred poorly to cd? If you had a mastering quality equalizer in software, this might just be possible. You can run the above VST plugin in DJ software from companies like M-Audio but obviously not the Pro Tools plugin. Perhaps someday they will be available for something like Slim Server. -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38739 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is connected to your Transporter?
ATC produces speakers for different budgets starting from $1,000 up to the million dollar system they installed at the Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles. If you are curious about any of them I'd be happy to provide more information if you'd like to pm me. I am an ATC dealer in the San Francisco Bay area and I like to think of myself as someone who is looking to make new friends and share knowledge rather than convince someone to buy something. I found a product that I really like and realized that in the USA there aren't a lot of people outside of the professional world that have even heard of the name ATC. I think the Transporter is an amazing product and I hate having to fumble through cd's when I use my cd player. The Transporter - ATC active speaker is an excellent, minimal signal-path combination. If anyone is bothered by my post, please pm me and let me know what I should do differently or how I should edit this post to make it more appropriate. I don't like annoying salespeople or spam either, and I hope this doesn't qualify as either. Thanks, Will jaysung;228458 Wrote: Hey Mike, what do you mean by bridge mode and how does this effect bi-amping? How much are the maridian? How much the Vandersteen? I read about atc 100 in this thread? Seem to be active speakers? This would involve replacing my dali speakers. I am satisfied with them. Oops looking at the atc scm 100 gave me a good laugh. And I thought I was crazzy! $22k for speakers. Nope. Definitely out of range! And happy about it! Will look at the other two to get an idea if I can tune my setup within a reasonable range. Any suggestions gratefully received. -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33868 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] itunes v SB3
Maybe this is a dumb question. What if lossless formats change over time so that in five or ten years the players are using a different format? Will it be possible to convert from one lossless format to another? opaqueice;228457 Wrote: Why not compress to a lossless format? But 250GB/2 is even more free. Same with any lossless format. Check. Check. Check. Using a lossless format, right. Check. Sorry, what was your point? -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38372 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is connected to your Transporter?
I hadn't thought about it that way. That's why I love these forums. There's so much to learn from people who take the time to share their knowledge... cliveb;227122 Wrote: Regardless of how the system is set up, a phono preamp is of course required. From then on, we have two choices: 1. phono preamp - analogue preamp - power amp 2. phono preamp - A/D converter - Transporter - power amp I think you are saying that you feel setup #1 will give superior sound quality. Intuitively one would expect this to be the case, as it avoids the A/D and D/A conversions. But I personally feel that setup #2 will sound better because in my experience, at a given price point, A/D converters are more transparent than preamps. -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33868 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Does the Squeezebox 3 benefit from a Big Ben?
Perhaps another way to phrase it is that cables can't remove jitter from a jittery source unit, but they can add jitter if the cables are not of high enough quality. In this way cables can add jitter and they are not capable of removing existing jitter from a system (unless replacing a poor cable). Robin Bowes;227675 Wrote: Phil Leigh wrote: Cables can't fix jitter. They can add to it but they can't take it away. That statement is questionable. A good cable will reduce jitter compared to a bad cable. TO my mind that's taking away jitter. R. -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38379 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Does the Squeezebox 3 benefit from a Big Ben?
So I have an SACD player and to my ear it is superior to cd. But I am concerned about the depreciation on the player when various audiophile formats become available on Blu-ray or HDDVD. And what about the depreciation on a Transporter if a new model is created that will decode SACD or another new high-res format? It's difficult to afford to be at the cutting edge for just a couple years. My theory is that the record labels have hurt themselves by failing to create a standard for higher def playback and are responsible for their own declining revenues. I would be curious to hear if GDG has compared the output from his Benchmark using the Big Ben vs without. The Benchmark is advertised as re-clocking incoming signals and being immune to jitter, which would make the Big Ben unnecessary. And then there is the perspective that an external clock will be subject to too many interim steps that degrade timing before reaching the DAC to benefit performance. But it's all theory until you hear it yourself... _ Transporter = ATC 100SCMAT or Ayre C5xe =ATC SCA2= ATC 100SCMAT -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38379 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] itunes v SB3
Benchmark has a good wiki with regard to outputting digital audio from a computer. On the following page they graph the distortion that iTunes creates when the volume is less than 100%: http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/ITunes_Distortion_Measurements I do not know how the SB3 handles digital volume adjustments and whether it suffers from the same problems as iTunes. If the external DAC that you mention has a volume control, it may alleviate the issue with iTunes. Hope this helps, Will -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38372 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is connected to your Transporter?
I would think that adding an a/d converter so that you can feed your vinyl through the Transporter dac in order to use the Transporter as a preamp would work for convenience, but it would be counterintuitive for audio quality. The benefit of vinyl is that it is analog and was never subject to an a/d conversion nor an eventual d/a conversion. Unless you only care about the convenience of accessing your records and not their audio quality, I would suggest another route. A simple preamp with phono stage should sound much better, however, you would need to switch your SCM100 interconnects to change sources... -Will -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33868 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is connected to your Transporter?
Good points. I don't know if I could tell the difference unless I tried, either. ; ) Phil Leigh;227010 Wrote: erm...well that is true if you ignore a lot of what was recorded in the Eighties onwards...lots of really nasty 14-bit! digital gear started creeping into studios at that point... Oh and I bet you couldn't reliably tell the difference between raw vinyl and the same vinyl via a 24/44.1 ADC/DAC... I know I couldn't! -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33868 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] itunes v SB3
the chart looks like it has a few peaks closer to 104-106db, to my eyes. I do hit 104db or higher...then again, I'm not an engineer and I don't know what peculiarities an analogue pot or switched resistor ladder might create. Phil Leigh;227009 Wrote: hmmm - apparently this distortion is -120dB down... personally I'd rather live with that than the peculiarities of an analogue pot or switched resistor ladder. Can your system or ears resolve -120dB? - I'm not sure mine can... -- musiklov3r musiklov3r's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13166 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38372 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
