Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
ModelCitizen;293326 Wrote: Please, it'd be nice to see one thread here end in harmony. No it wouldn't! -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
opaqueice;292935 Wrote: My argument proved that 24 bit rounding errors cannot possibly be audible You obviously have a very low standard of 'proof'! Dodgy assumptions, a misunderstanding of noise, and no inconvenient actual experiments. I'm just glad we don't have to rely on you to understand how the universe works. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Patrick Dixon;293211 Wrote: You obviously have a very low standard of 'proof'! Dodgy assumptions, a misunderstanding of noise, and no inconvenient actual experiments. I'm just glad we don't have to rely on you to understand how the universe works. OK, I'll bite... What's YOUR understanding? -- Timothy Stockman Timothy Stockman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8867 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Patrick Dixon;293211 Wrote: You obviously have a very low standard of 'proof'! Here's the thread in question again. Anyone can read that and judge for themselves: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=45736page=7 Now, let's see: Dodgy assumptions, Like... the laws of physics? The ones that show that these rounding errors are about as loud as the sound made by the Brownian motion of air molecules at room temperature? a misunderstanding of noise, Odd that it seems to coincide with that of the chief engineer and designer of these products, isn't it? and no inconvenient actual experiments. Oh, you mean like the one I linked to before? Here it is again. http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm Feel free to plug your ears and scream ICAN'THEARYOUICAN'THEARYOU!. Or maybe the special plink that last neon atom made bouncing off your right eardrum is already enough to drown me out? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Please, it'd be nice to see one thread here end in Harmony. -- ModelCitizen Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. It's the music, stupid. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
ModelCitizen;293326 Wrote: Please, it'd be nice to see one thread here end in harmony.Maybe that can only happen in the Music section! -- smc2911 http://www.last.fm/user/smc2911/ smc2911's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4388 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
So I have searched through the forums, read the replies, and while I understand the arguments that limited volume reduction will not effect sound quality, I feel happier getting the same samples out of the squeezebox as I started with on the original CD - so the volume control will be set at 100% from now on. Whether I am imagining it or not, I remain convinced I can tell the diffence between SB3, duet and CD direct (mission CD player) using the same coax cable and the same external DACs (krell processor). To put my mind at rest I have ordered a transporter which I collect tomorrow. I will report back how I get on. Andy. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Andy8421;292930 Wrote: So I have searched through the forums, read the replies, and while I understand the arguments that limited volume reduction will not effect sound quality, I feel happier getting the same samples out of the squeezebox as I started with on the original CD - so the volume control will be set at 100% from now on. I don't think anyone said lowering the volume doesn't affect sound quality. My argument proved that 24 bit rounding errors cannot possibly be audible (contrary to the claims of some). However it is still true that lowering the volume digitally will reduce the signal to noise of the output (because the noise stays more or less constant, but the signal decreases). Of course lowering the volume using an analogue control potentially has the same problem, but a good passive analogue volume control almost certainly has lower noise than the SB3 (maybe not than the Transporter, though). I don't know how your Krell stacks up. Whether I am imagining it or not, I remain convinced I can tell the diffence between SB3, duet and CD direct (mission CD player) using the same coax cable and the same external DACs (krell processor). To put my mind at rest I have ordered a transporter which I collect tomorrow. I will report back how I get on. Please do. Arguments aside, the point of this hobby is to enjoy listening to music, so putting your mind at rest is the first priority. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Patrick Dixon;291177 Wrote: So I guess when a horn and an oboe play together, you can't hear the oboe 'cos the horn is louder? What an odd thing to say. Plus, of course, that noise is cumulative, so even if the noise was the same character, you would have more of it. You're aware of the fact that dB is a logarithmic measure, I hope? LOL! Indeed. seanadams; 164681 Wrote: The you still have all the bits concept is completely flawed. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=30916 http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
NewBuyer;291108 Wrote: Except at full digital volume (e.g. 100 on the SB3), at which it outputs at 16 bit - is that correct? Really? - how does that work... surely at any volume the output is always sent as 24-bits? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Its an immense task to keep things simple. -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Carlsson OA50.2 Sennheiser HD580 Precision Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Phil Leigh;291331 Wrote: Really? - how does that work... surely at any volume the output is always sent as 24-bits? seanadams;75489 Wrote: ...You will get 16 bits of output: - When you are playing 16-bit WAV/FLAC files at 100% volume You will get more than 16 bits: - When playing MP3 or WMA files (which are represented in the frequency domain). Squeebox takes advantage of the higher resolution output during the final PCM systhesis step of the decoding process. - When playing any format at less than 100% volume (additional bits used for more resolution in the volume function). Just to be technical: I don't know if this means that at full digital volume, the extra 8 bits are still output but are just simply all zeros - or if literally only 16 bit signal is output in that case - nor if any of it matters! :) -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
NewBuyer;291108 Wrote: Except at full digital volume (e.g. 100 on the SB3), at which it outputs at 16 bit - is that correct? Remember that the most significant bits don't change position in the S/PDIF stream, regardless of whether its 16 bits, 20 bits or 24 bits. Depending on how one reads the S/PDIF standard, audio is always transmitted at 20 (or 24 bit) resolution, although the receiving device may only pay attention to only the upper 16-bits, upper 20-bits or all 24-bits, depending on what it understands. If the source is 16 bits, the lower 8 bits of the S/PDIF stream are likely 0. If the source is 16 bits and the digital volume is less than 100, the lower 8 bits are likely the residue of the numerical calculations. It's sort of pointless, for the most part, to worry about exactly what these low bits are, because the noise floor of most popular CDs comes nowhere close to using the 16-bits resolution the CD provides. IMHO what is important is that the digital volume calculations are done in greater than 16-bit, 24-bit should suffice, and that the residue of the calculations not truncated to 16-bits. -- Timothy Stockman Timothy Stockman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8867 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Thanks for the feedback and the link. Used to be an EE many years ago, and brain is getting befuddled these days, but surely any digital reduction of the sound will reduce quality. By definition, reducing the volume by reducing the digital values will reduce the size of the largest sample - thereby reducing the dynamic range. To use a trite example, reducing the volume by 50% digitally will turn the 16 bit sample into a 15 bit sample. Even if the processing is done in 24 bits, and the volume reduction is small, the dynamic range has been reduced and the quality of the output diminshed. Do you happen to know whether it is possible to disable the didgital volume control or whether the SB leaves the datastream alone if it set at full volume? Andy. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
The point is that the original 16 bit is upscaled to 24 by adding 8 *redundant* bits, so if you lose them, you lose no information. To quote Robin from the link above, Here's an example using 4-bits / 8 bits: Original 4-bit audio: Processed as 8-bit audio: Half the volume : 0000 Half the volume : 0000 Half the volume : 0000 Half the volume : Notice, we've now reduced the volume significantly and have still not lost any resolution. and similarly if the original 4-bit was 1101, it'd be processed as 1101 and Half the volume : 01101000 Half the volume : 00110100 Half the volume : 00011010 Half the volume : 1101 The original information content, in the first example and 1101 in the second, is not lost at all by reducing volume. -- smc2911 http://www.last.fm/user/smc2911/ smc2911's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4388 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Thank you for the reply and the link to the review. I will go and check the settings on the SB3, although I haven't changed any of them. I am not a believer in any of this voodoo 'I changed my mains cord and the sound is much better' stuff, and I understand that in principle the digital outputs should be the same, but.. When set up correctly (and it took me ages), with a decently recorded CD the martin logan's do an amazing dissapearing trick and it becomes impossible to locate the speakers, you just hear a broad soundstage. Its why I put up with their fiddly setup and their questionable looks. Use the SB3 and the speakers reappear. The best I can say is that it sounds a bit murky. I am a little concerned about the SB3 messing with the samples (the reason I put up with a 15 minute rip-time from EAC is to get all the original samples) so I will investigate this further. There are all sorts of posts on the fourm about the SPDIF drive circuitry in the SB3 introducing jitter in the digital feed. I will have a look at that as well. Andy -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
If your system is like mine, you will find that this subtle effect you are describing, is alleviated by using a digital device like the GW Labs DSP. Works great between my SB3 and DAC, and I think that among other things, it might be the pulse-transformer isolation the DSP provides on both the digital input AND the digital output. -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Thanks again for the reply. I think the example may be incorrect. The example has not been taken to its 4 bit conclusion. Original 4 bit sample Processed as 8 bit audio Reduced by 50% 0000 So far so good, but the SB3 needs to output this as a 4 bit sample to the DAC. So truncating: Output 4 bit sample 0111 The 4 bit sample is now a 3 bit sample. Half the size of the original (which it would need to be, for half the volume), but half of the dynamic range is lost. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Thanks for the reply. I haven't touched any of the advanced settings. Just to confirm, if the settings are default, and the source file is WAV, it gets transported as a WAV datastream and the SB3 doesn't have to do any further processing? Andy. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Your system should show the sb3 to be slightly inferior to the cdp ...assuming your using the standard psu ?.If you improve the psu you should get much closer to the cdp in my system sb3 [plus modded psu] feed a dax decade with a cdp as transport ..yes you canjust tell he cdp has a more dynamic presentation but try as I might it will only ever play the one disc in the unit ...where as the sb3 has 1200 albums to go at ! flac is a significant improvment on wav in my system... which is feeding a pair consonance cyber 800's and martin logan statics -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Ripping a CD with EAC is (AFAIK) the better transport you can imagine (yes, a 30$ computer drive can beat a 2k$ audio mechanics). That's just the theory and there is too many other parameters in account. What I would do to improve the basic SB3 would be: - replace SB psu by a linear one - use wired ethernet instead of wireless - choose a good spdif coax And of course, be sure I have no software configuration problem like format transcoding, bad ripping drive, etc. -- vrobin vrobin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11705 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Andy8421 wrote: Thanks again for the reply. I think the example may be incorrect. The example has not been taken to its 4 bit conclusion. Original 4 bit sample Processed as 8 bit audio Reduced by 50% 0000 So far so good, but the SB3 needs to output this as a 4 bit sample to the DAC. So truncating: Output 4 bit sample 0111 The 4 bit sample is now a 3 bit sample. Half the size of the original (which it would need to be, for half the volume), but half of the dynamic range is lost. No, the point is that the DAC is 24-bit, so nothing is lost. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Thanks for the reply. I would agree that in the case of a 24 bit DAC, driven in the manner you describe, there would be no loss of resolution until the volume was reduced to 1/256th of the full volume. I am however using the DAC in my Krell. So the quesion is whether the SB3 outputs 24 bit samples out of the SPDIF connector, and whether the Krell would know what to do with them if it did. If anyone is reading who knows the amswer to 'is the SPDIF output 24bit'? I would be grateful. Andy -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
The S/PDIF default is 20 bits and only equipment that supports 24 bits sees 24 bits. I'm fairly sure the SB3 puts out 24 bits...but I'm not sure about the Krell. BTW the issue with the digital volume control isn't bits (when working with 24 bits none of the 16 original bits are lost with normal volume ranges). The issue is with loss of SNR. Assuming the TP has 120db SNR you can afford to lose 24db before being 'restricted' to 96db. That is the dynamic range of 16 bit recordings. Don't know what the SNR of your Krell is... Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
A couple of points. First, you say you haven't changed any of the settings on slimserver. By default (unless this has changed, in which I'm sure someone will correct me) SS encodes WAVs as FLAC before sending them to the squeezebox/receiver. That means there cannot possibly be any sonic difference between the same file stored as WAV versus FLAC on your server. Since you were confident you heard a difference, your biases and expectations are having a major impact on the sound quality you perceive. I suggest you go back and do those comparisons again, blind (not knowing what is what). Have a friend (who promises not to give you any sort of hint, as that defeats the purpose) do the switches and record what your responses are. Second, the discussion digital volume reduction here is wrong (as I pointed out in the other thread, and as Sean has said as well). Nothing special happens at 1/256 volume. You should set the analog volume so that max digital volume is as loud as you will want; then using the SB volume will result only in a slight reduction of signal/noise. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
I presume you've checked to ensure replaygain or smartgain are not inadvertantly turned on, and that bit-rate limiting is turned off. Are you using the same SPDIF cable when comparing your CD player vs. SB3 into your Krell? Other than that, no idea where the problem lies. I, too have ML speakers, and I'm quite happy with my SB2 into a Benchmark DAC-1, and I'd say it gives me 99% of the fidelity vs. my (now rarely used) CD player. -- sleepysurf main system: sb2 (with elpac linear psu) benchmark dac-1 modwright swl 9.0se belles 350a reference ml summits. blue jeans cables. secondary sb3 systems in master br (russound r235ls amp driving in-ceiling speakers) and game room (powered swan s200a speakers). sleepysurf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
opaqueice;290921 Wrote: Second, the discussion of digital volume reduction here is wrong. Nothing special happens at 1/256 volume. Best practice is to set the analog volume so that max digital volume is as loud as you will want; then using the SB volume will result only in a slight reduction of signal/noise. Hmm, I'm not quite sure which bit you think is 'wrong'. This isn't gong to be another of your 'can't hear -144dB' faux pas is it? Best practice IMO, is to use the combination of analogue and digital volume control that sounds best to you. Both will affect the sound in slightly different ways depending on your system and your ears. sleepysurf;290954 Wrote: I presume you've checked to ensure replaygain or smartgain are not inadvertantly turned on Good point. It's possible that if you have replay gain tags in your FLAC files they would sound different to a WAV file (with no tags), converted to FLAC on the fly. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Just want to inform, I read information from another site that if you play a HDCD decoded flac file, and use fixed volume the HDCD indicator in the dac comes on. If you use variable volum and keep this at 100 the indicator comes on. But, if you lower the volume to 99 the indicator goes out. -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Carlsson OA50.2 Sennheiser HD580 Precision Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Anne;290997 Wrote: Just want to inform, I read information from another site that if you play a HDCD decoded flac file, and use fixed volume the HDCD indicator in the dac comes on. If you use variable volum and keep this at 100 the indicator comes on. But, if you lower the volume to 99 the indicator goes out. Yup, any encoded signal (HDCD, DTS, etc) will only work with the volume @ 100 because that's the only time it'll be bit-identical to the original. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Patrick Dixon;290982 Wrote: Hmm, I'm not quite sure which bit you think is 'wrong'. What's wrong is this whole bit perfect idea. It's true that if one wanted to take the attenuated digital stream and reconstruct the original data, that would be impossible when the volume is reduced by more than a factor of 256 (or even less if the gain factor is such that rounding is necessary). But that's NOT what one wants to do - not at all. You're sending the stream into a DAC, and the DAC converts it into an analogue voltage. The only thing that matters then is the S/N of the resulting analogue stream, and the S/N varies smoothly with the gain factor. There is no sudden change at 256, and there is also no change when there is rounding versus when there isn't. The reason is that the noise level of the DAC is well above the rounding errors. This is not just an opinion - it's a fact which can be proven mathematically and checked empirically (there was a plot of the S/N as a function of volume posted a while back). This isn't gong to be another of your 'can't hear -144dB' faux pas is it? Oh please. You were wrong about that, and you're simply not big enough to admit it. That's obvious to anyone reading that thread. You never had any response to the points I (and others) made - you just resorted to childish insults. It's possible that if you have replay gain tags in your FLAC files they would sound different to a WAV file (with no tags), converted to FLAC on the fly. That's a good point. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
By the way, I'm not sure if these questions ever got answered. Andy8421;290845 Wrote: Do you happen to know whether it is possible to disable the didgital volume control or whether the SB leaves the datastream alone if it set at full volume? Yes to both. Andy8421;290918 Wrote: If anyone is reading who knows the amswer to 'is the SPDIF output 24bit'? I would be grateful. Yes, at least for the squeezebox (I'm not positive about the receiver, although I doubt it's different). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
All the s/pdif outputs on all our products are 24-bit. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
So I took the plunge over the weekend. Bought an SB3, Duet, couple of Seagate freeagent drives and made the leap into a distributed home system. Suffering from the 'dodgy duet' controller network connection problems which hopefully will be fixed (reported elsewhere on the forum), but also unfortunately dissapointed with quality of sound. Great for general use, but have a decent two channel system (Krell Showcase processor, Krell amps, Martin Logan electrostatics) where the SB sound is definitely left wanting. Fiddled around with every combination of setting and connection. Ended up with the best sound from the SB3 connected via SPDIF coax to the Krell DACs using WAV files. However SPDIF direct via coax from CD player still sounded significantly better. A number of things suprised me: FLAC noticably worse than WAV (I used EAC with FLAC add-in to rip) Duet receiver worse than SB3 Optical worse than coax. I was also concerned that the volume control on the SB3 worked on the digital output. I had hoped I was getting a bit perfect copy of the original CD out of the SPDIF connection on the SB. Only way the volume can be altered is if the SB processes the datasream, which is not what I was after at all. Don't know if it is additional jitter, SB processing or whatever, it just doesn't sound as good as the original. To quote my 11 year old son (who generally doesn't care about Dad's hifi at all) the SB sounded as if his glasses needed cleaning. What is the best way forward? stick with the CD player for serious listening, or will the 'transporter' offer a bitstream closer to the original CD output? Bit of a waste to buy all that analogue circuitry and high end DACs and not use them just to get a better digital data feed. Any advice most welcome. Thanks. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Andy8421;290755 Wrote: A number of things suprised me: FLAC noticably worse than WAV (I used EAC with FLAC add-in to rip) Have you changed anything away from default in the file type settings? It's under the Advanced tab in the settings window. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
You have pretty good ears. When Stereophile tested the Bryston B100 they used an SB3 with a Krell KRC-28 I believe it was, they heard no difference in sound quality with wireless WAV to SB3 fed into the Bryston dac vs. the Krell playing the cd and outputting it digitally into the same Bryston dac. http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/407bryston/ You dont need the volume control on the SB3 if you use your processor anyway, do you ? Anyway, using the volume on the SB3 shouldnt have a degrading effect on the sound down to maybe 70 out of 100. Have you checked all settings in the menus of the SB3 ? Bit limiting off etc. My ears are not as good as they once were, but I would expect you to hear no difference between the SB3 digital out, and your cd player digital out into the same dac yes. I wont make the SB3 better than it is since we talk only digital transfer here... -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Carlsson OA50.2 Sennheiser HD580 Precision Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] I want it bit-perfect
Andy8421;290755 Wrote: I was also concerned that the volume control on the SB3 worked on the digital output. I had hoped I was getting a bit perfect copy of the original CD out of the SPDIF connection on the SB. Only way the volume can be altered is if the SB processes the datasream, which is not what I was after at all. Don't know if it is additional jitter, SB processing or whatever, it just doesn't sound as good as the original. To quote my 11 year old son (who generally doesn't care about Dad's hifi at all) the SB sounded as if his glasses needed cleaning.On the topic of volume, have a look at this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44546 and in particular this post: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=278324postcount=32 Since the SB uses 24 bit processing and CDs are generally 16 bit, you can have some digital volume reduction without any loss of information. -- smc2911 http://www.last.fm/user/smc2911/ smc2911's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4388 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46229 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
