Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
Nonreality;303832 Wrote: > So being an A/V receiver automatically makes everything sound the same? Only if a wine costing $55 automatically makes it spectacular :-) I was only suggesting that an A/V receiver that makes everything sound the same probably exists, and some people probably like it, which is fine by me. If it's less inflammatory you could substitue - car audio systems that make everything sound the same- for -A/V receivers-. -- Skunk http://www.last.fm/user/TheSkunk/ Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
Nonreality;303832 Wrote: > So being an A/V receiver automatically makes everything sound the same? > Are you saying no dynamic range. Maybe the reason they do to you is that > you haven't listened to any of the nicer ones from Denon or Yamaha > without bose speakers. There has been a huge improvement in receivers > and for a lot of people, expense, house size make it impossible to have > more than one system for them and the family. I have my Yamaha paired > up with some older B&W speakers and have had some pretty knowledgeable > musicians give it rave reviews. They were people that I'd truly > consider to be audiophiles and they were very surprised that it was a > receiver instead of pre amp amp setup. Maybe if they would have seen > the system before hearing it would not have gotten such good reviews. > :0I agree with this. A/V receivers are getting VERY close to equi-priced Audio products. Me too i had two separate systems (an audio with amp/cdplayer and an A/V with receiver/dvd/sb3) but i gave up the audio part when i purchased a modern receiver : the difference in quality is really not worth it anymore : I observe more differencies by getting better speakers (my previous ones, i mean ;)) or dacs than spending the same money in amps and cd players. Let apart the complexity of all these separate boxes. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
Skunk;300423 Wrote: > If they're talking about two buck chuck (grocery wine), versus $55 Napa > Cab, then shouldn't we be talking about an A/V receiver that makes > everything sound the same, versus an accurate system. > > I actually *like* my system because it's ruthlessly revealing, but I'm > sure some would prefer their A/V receiver and Bose speakers because it > makes ALL their albums sound 'good'. > > But when the differences end it does seem silly to wax eloquent on the > benefit of speaker cable A vs B, or this particular vintage decanted > and drank from Reidel, vs paper cups. So being an A/V receiver automatically makes everything sound the same? Are you saying no dynamic range. Maybe the reason they do to you is that you haven't listened to any of the nicer ones from Denon or Yamaha without bose speakers. There has been a huge improvement in receivers and for a lot of people, expense, house size make it impossible to have more than one system for them and the family. I have my Yamaha paired up with some older B&W speakers and have had some pretty knowledgeable musicians give it rave reviews. They were people that I'd truly consider to be audiophiles and they were very surprised that it was a receiver instead of pre amp amp setup. Maybe if they would have seen the system before hearing it would not have gotten such good reviews. :0 -- Nonreality *-If the rule you followed brought you to this, what good is the rule.-* Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
darrenyeats;302031 Wrote: > At least wine lovers see the sense in blind wine tasting. I've seen > several blind wine tastings on television and no-one objected to them > as "too stressful" or "not meaningful". Also, I have read published > wine reviews by experts which were conducted blind. The general public > seems capable of understanding the common sense benefits of this. The > audiophile community in general doesn't seem to share a similar kind of > attitude. > Darren well, blind tasting refers to you not being able to see the bottle label itself, not to getting blind-folded. the eyes provide relevant information in either case. but i know what you mean, knowing what you're listening to totally devalues the result because it does introduce a lot of psychoacoustics. i think psycho-acoustics are valid in many ways (pride of ownership etc) but people should be honest about what provides them enjoyment and not boil it all down to being able to *hear* a difference. in that i agree. -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
At least wine lovers see the sense in blind wine tasting. I've seen several blind wine tastings on television and no-one objected to them as "too stressful" or "not meaningful". Also, I have read published wine reviews by experts which were conducted blind. The general public seems capable of understanding the common sense benefits of this. The audiophile community in general doesn't seem to share a similar kind of attitude. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz -> Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) -> PMC AB-1 Dell laptop -> JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
...when based on personal preference alone, doesn't mean much. However, I think it's somewhat silly to let the casual observer's opinion have just as much value as the opinion of someone who has dedicated a lot of time to educate themselves on a topic, irrational as that dedication may be. I both enjoy good sound and good wine. In both cases I know enough and I have invested enough time into the subject to explain my personal opinion on what makes something "better" with some observations, rather than just categorically state so based on pure seat of the pants feel. In both cases I don't get dragged nor do I feel that I have the ultimate urge to go for the more esoteric expressions of the "craft". The utter flights of fancy are lost on me, but I respect the people that go for it. *If* and *when* I listen to true experts that take me further down the road, pointing out an element in the wine's nose, color or taste I had overlooked, I think it is a great moment. So no, I don't believe everybody's opinion on what is "better" counts the same as far as I am concerned. There are extremes to both sides: those who simply feel entitled to express opinions without having made an effort to know what they talk about, and then there are those who are either a tad too obsessed and borderline derranged, or simply pose based on the premise that throwing more $$$ at something can make them compensate for lack of knowledge... The reasonable people in the middle spectrum with an idea of what they talk about, and the will to exchange opinions without getting caught up in dogma... those are the ones that I personally listen to and learn from. -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
cliveb;300346 Wrote: > But even the self-proclaimed "golden-eared" (who by your argument are > the ones that should be able to detect these subtle differences) > routinely fail DBTs. That's true. Mine wasn't an argument as such; I don't buy into much audiophile marketing. However, I thought there were a few nice insights that could be taken from these studies and applied to this hobby, especially the point on the refinement on the senses. -- Jitterbug Jitterbug's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
If they're talking about two buck chuck (grocery wine), versus $55 Napa Cab, then shouldn't we be talking about an A/V receiver that makes everything sound the same, versus an accurate system. I actually *like* my system because it's ruthlessly revealing, but I'm sure some would prefer their A/V receiver and Bose speakers because it makes ALL their albums sound 'good'. But when the differences end it does seem silly to wax eloquent on the benefit of speaker cable A vs B, or this particular vintage decanted and drank from Reidel, vs paper cups. -- Skunk http://www.last.fm/user/TheSkunk/ Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
radish;300243 Wrote: > Why does the fact that someone who drinks a lot of wine invalidate the > preference of someone who doesn't? What defines what is "better" in a > wine? Does "better" mean "preferred by some specific person"? The thing > with wine is that it's _all_ about preference, all that matters is that > the person drinking it likes it. You might think it tastes like > pigswill, and that's just fine. > > With audio on the other hand, there is at least one objective aim, > which is accuracy to the source material. Once you get into the > subjective (I _prefer_ the sound of this amp) then science goes out the > window, and frankly, it's not worth talking about as everyone's > preference is their own. > > And that's ignoring the fact that the vast majority of DBT testing of > audio gear is about deciding whether there's a difference at all, not > whether there's a preference. If the wine people all agree that the > wine tastes different, they just don't agree on which is "best" I'd say > you're right back into the subjective - which isn't where most arguments > on this forum tend to lie. Basically I agree. The challenge is...how do we assess accuracy to the source? Since we all hear the source differently, we all have a different baseline. The only way to do this meaningfully is to have the real source in the room, and compare it with a recording of it. Even though we all hear the recording and the source differently, at least we can indvidually do an "apples to apples" comparison. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
Jitterbug;300249 Wrote: > In that respect it is not just about preference, it is about the first > group of people not perceiving differences which are noticable by the > second. For this reason, there may be clear parallels with the > audiophile world, and in the failure of some to notice differences in > DBT tests. But even the self-proclaimed "golden-eared" (who by your argument are the ones that should be able to detect these subtle differences) routinely fail DBTs. -- cliveb Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
I don't want to over extraplotate or read too much into these studies but it seems reasonable to me that people with less education in wine will favour one with a more obvious taste, while those with some acquired skill will detect (and enjoy) the subtle features of a fine wine. In that respect it is not just about preference, it is about the first group of people not perceiving differences which are noticable by the second. For this reason, there may be clear parallels with the audiophile world, and in the failure of some to notice differences in DBT tests. -- Jitterbug Jitterbug's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
Jitterbug;300206 Wrote: > Besides the predictable correlation between price and perceived quality, > the other point that appeared poignant was that under blind tests, > connoiseurs preferred the more expensive wines, while novices preferred > the cheaper ones. It is not a stretch to believe that a sophistication > develops with hearing as much as it does with taste. It at least must > call into the question the conclusions of some of the DBTs done with > non-audiphiles. Why does the fact that someone who drinks a lot of wine invalidate the preference of someone who doesn't? What defines what is "better" in a wine? Does "better" mean "preferred by some specific person"? The thing with wine is that it's _all_ about preference, all that matters is that the person drinking it likes it. You might think it tastes like pigswill, and that's just fine. With audio on the other hand, there is at least one objective aim, which is accuracy to the source material. Once you get into the subjective (I _prefer_ the sound of this amp) then science goes out the window, and frankly, it's not worth talking about as everyone's preference is their own. And that's ignoring the fact that the vast majority of DBT testing of audio gear is about deciding whether there's a difference at all, not whether there's a preference. If the wine people all agree that the wine tastes different, they just don't agree on which is "best" I'd say you're right back into the subjective - which isn't where most arguments on this forum tend to lie. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] audiophiles and oenophiles
This is an interesting article on two studies that appear to give expensive wine lovers some of the same bashing that expensive audio gear lovers get occasionaly on this forum. Besides the predictable correlation between price and perceived quality, the other point that appeared poignant was that under blind tests, connoiseurs preferred the more expensive wines, while novices preferred the cheaper ones. It is not a stretch to believe that a sophistication develops with hearing as much as it does with taste. It at least must call into the question the conclusions of some of the DBTs done with non-audiphiles. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/dining/07pour.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5087&em&en=daa6560fe87d7d6a&ex=1210392000 -- Jitterbug Jitterbug's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47395 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
