Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Dazza;299171 Wrote: I'd go BNC over RCA anyday, better connection, self cleaning, cables are generally shielded over RCA ones. RCA is a horrible connector, I try to steering away from it with all my gear (either pro audio or DIY stuff) I'm with you on this one. Most of our video gear at work uses BNC connectors but there are a few bits that only have RCAs. With the BNC stuff you _know_ the connection is sound so if you are having signal problems its not just because the cable isn't pushed in right. For audio I don't care if there is any perceived audible difference, BNC is just a far higher quality physical connector. Shame it isn't more widely used to be honest. -- funkstar funkstar's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
I still have to complete my BNC / RCA test, though to be clear my interest was due to the drive circuitry in the transporter being capacitor coupled for the RCA socket and transformer coupled for the BNC socket. I didn't expect there to be any real difference because of the socket itself, although the BNC is impedence matched and the RCA isnt. The RCA is a terrible design, and has the unforgivable failing of making the signal connection before the ground when the plug is inserted. I hope to have a chance to test properly in the next week or so. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
I'd go BNC over RCA anyday, better connection, self cleaning, cables are generally shielded over RCA ones. RCA is a horrible connector, I try to steering away from it with all my gear (either pro audio or DIY stuff) -- Dazza Dazza's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Sean, Thanks for the reply. Should anyone care, I will report back when I have fiddled about with the two outputs to see if I can imagine they sound different. A. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Tyler, I am not sure I would call SPDIF low frequency. The encoding technique chosen by S/P has an effective frequency of 5.6MHz - I'd call that RF. If you want to have sharp edges to the pulses then you are looking at needing harmonics way up the spectrum, the higher the better. On the basis of a failing memory of my EE days, I would guess that a decent 5.6MHz square wave would have significant spectral components up to 50MHz. Well worth trying to make a decent job of impedance matching the SPDIF link. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
In my experience SPDIF can get flakey at over 5 metres of coax (rca). By flakey I mean it either works reliably with no clicks/pops or it doesn't. Not any kind of audible effect/degradation (like one might have with audio signals and long cables) Below that - certainly at the normal 0.5-1m cable lenght - I'm not totally convinced by the 75-ohm/BNC argument. Even if if correct, the BNC's need to be at both ends and everything needs to be proper 75 ohm components (not 50 ohm for example). I must admit, if I bought a TP I'd use its DAC. That way I'd get the benefit of NOT having SPDIF and certain jitter sources in the equation. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Andy8421;297543 Wrote: While I may have been imagining most of it, other members of the family (including my very sceptical Wife) were able to tell the difference on blind A/B tests. Would you mind expounding on that? They were able to tell the difference between the CD player's digital out going into the Krell and the SB3 and/or Duet's digital out going into the Krell - is that right? Did you level the volumes? How many trials did you do? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
opaqueice;297645 Wrote: Would you mind expounding on that? They were able to tell the difference between the CD player's digital out going into the Krell and the SB3 and/or Duet's digital out going into the Krell - is that right? Did you level the volumes? How many trials did you do? Might I politely recommend this is not replied to? :) The OP proved it to his and (importantly, I imagine) his wife's satisfaction. It would probably not have been double blind and it would almost certainly not qualify for inclusion in a scientific journal. It's never going to be data, it's just an opinion point. Let's not get flaming please... -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Phil Leigh;297643 Wrote: In my experience SPDIF can get flakey at over 5 metres of coax (rca). By flakey I mean it either works reliably with no clicks/pops or it doesn't. Not any kind of audible effect/degradation (like one might have with audio signals and long cables) Strange - I have had completely the opposite experience. On several occasions I have run SPDIF from the digital output of a CD player into an M-Audio AP2496 soundcard across about 30ft of cheap, thin COAX (the kind of stuff Maplins sell for 50p/metre - certainly not 75ohm), terminated with bog standard phono plugs. Never had a problem. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
adamslim;297656 Wrote: Might I politely recommend this is not replied to? :) The OP proved it to his and (importantly, I imagine) his wife's satisfaction. It would probably not have been double blind and it would almost certainly not qualify for inclusion in a scientific journal. It's never going to be data, it's just an opinion point. Let's not get flaming please... May I politely suggest that the above post be ignored? This clearly wasn't a scientific test, I'm not expecting it to be, it didn't need to be, and I have no idea why you bring up scientific journals. I'm simply curious - I don't know many cases where people were able to hear differences between two digital sources going into the same DAC in a blind test, and - since the OP brought it up - I'd like to hear more details (if he's willing). Is that OK with you, Adam? Do we have your permission to proceed? :-) -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Phil Leigh;297744 Wrote: Well - to clarify... In my studio I had some rather long (and not cheap either) spdif cables that linked the main stereo mastering DAC to the digital outs from the desk. So is the moral of this story that for long SPDIF transfers you should use cheap cable? :-) I can only guess that your problem cables were significantly longer than my 30ft one. What sort of length does a cable have to be before reflections are a problem at the SPDIF data rate? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
cliveb;297754 Wrote: So is the moral of this story that for long SPDIF transfers you should use cheap cable? :-) I can only guess that your problem cables were significantly longer than my 30ft one. What sort of length does a cable have to be before reflections are a problem at the SPDIF data rate? They were 10m so the same as yours! It may have been the desk/DAC that had the issue... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
I didnt try anything else, so I cant recommend much, but I use a Stereovox XV2 digital cable, its a bnc but come with rca adapters. I dont think an spdif cable should be too long, I read about a guy cutting a cable down to 2 inches, and he said it was clearly audible. What about using Toslink ? -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Carlsson OA50.2 Sennheiser HD580 Precision Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
At the risk of inflaming opinion, I am happy to explain how I compared the systems. I would like to add that I was a EE 25 years ago and although time and technology have passed me by, I still have a healthy disregard for the 'I replaced the fuse in my mains plug with a nail and it tightened the bass up' sort of nonsense. Having said that, while I subscribe to the 'all digital source sound the same' argument, I did some work on digital to analogue systems for the BBC (we had digital even then) and sample jitter was a big deal. It is just as important for the DAC to have the correct sample output voltage as it is to have the sample at the right time. The highest precision DAC is rubbish if clocked with a jittery clock. SPDIF has an embbeded clock which can be subject to jitter on recovery, so in principle a jittery digital source 'could' sound worse than a source with less jitter (all other things being equal). So back to the test. Same DAC (the Krell - 24bit Burr-Brown I believe) same length 75 ohm coax, teminated with Neutrik RCA connectors (which are not 75ohm) going to Meridian CD player and to SB3 or Duet. Believe I had everything software configurable set the same for the two inputs on the Krell. To my ears, no question the Meridian path was better. May have been imagining it - who knows? But the soudstage was stable, clear and open with the Meridian, and didn't seem as good with the Duet / SB3. Was this due to jitter? - I have no idea. But back to my question if anyone has suffered through all my yesterdays. The transporter has two SPDIF outputs and one balanced EBU output. The two SPDIF outputs are different (according to the manual) the RCA output is capacitor coupled, the BNC is transformer coupled. Both have a source impedence of 75ohms. Why do they differ? and which is the best to use? Thanks to all. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Andy8421;297821 Wrote: The two SPDIF outputs are different (according to the manual) the RCA output is capacitor coupled, the BNC is transformer coupled. Both have a source impedence of 75ohms. Why do they differ? and which is the best to use? Either one should work fine. The reason I included both is for convenience in case you have one type of cable or the other, and also to give people an opportunity to compare them if they want to. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Andy8421 wrote: The proud owner of a new transporter. Plan to connect it via S/PDIF to an AV processor to use its DACs. Want to know whether I should use the RCA S/PDIF output (75ohm, capacitor coupled) or the BNC output (75ohm tranformer coupled). Not sure why both are provided, or why they differ. Any advice most welcome. Sorry, not clear what you're doing. Do you mean you're going to use the DAC in the AV processor? If so, which AV processor? I'd be surprised if it sounds as good as the Transporter DACs. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Andy8421;297407 Wrote: The proud owner of a new transporter. Plan to connect it via S/PDIF to an AV processor to use its DACs. Want to know whether I should use the RCA S/PDIF output (75ohm, capacitor coupled) or the BNC output (75ohm tranformer coupled). Sorry I am curious- If you were going to use the use the DAC of an AV processor, why did you buy a Transporter in the first place? What sets the Transporter against the SB3 is largely its digital audio system. Or do you have a killer AV processor? -- agentsmith System 1: SB2 and a mostly Naim system System 2: SB2 connected digitally to a Meridian F80 agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
Guys, Thanks for the replies. I have a Krell Showcase processor, driving Krell Showcase amplifiers into Martin Logan Aeon electrostatics. I have tried the transporter driving the amps directly (the Krell uses XLR balanced connections between processor and Amp, so it easy to swap in) and while it sounds different to the Krell, I have not been able to convince myself that it sounds better. I guess it is all a case of personal preference. The convenience factor of being able to use the Krell is significant, as it is as the heart of my home cinema set up, but before I made the final decision I wanted to give the Krell the best chance to show what it could do - hence the desire to use the best S/PDIF output from the transporter to drive it. There is much on the web and in this forum about the hazards of jitter on S/PDIF and a number of advocates of replacing S/PDIF output circuitry on the SB3 and Duet to improve the shape and reduce jitter of the S/PDIF pulses. Most mods revolve around using a pulse transformer rather than a capacitor coupled link. I was interested that Slim provide both on the transporter and wondered if anyone had tried and A/B comparison to find which was better. To be fair, nothing to stop me from doing that. As for why the transporter, I started with a Duet driving the Krell, then bought an SB3, and have now moved on to a transporter. While I think the Duet and SB3 are great products (and I plan to use them in other rooms in the house) they never sounded comparable to my meridian CD player driving the Krell direct. While I may have been imagining most of it, other members of the family (including my very sceptical Wife) were able to tell the difference on blind A/B tests. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BNC or RCA which should I use?
There is no point in using a 75 Ohm output if either the connectors, line or termination are not 75 Ohms. If your cable is a 75 Ohm cable and the connectors on it are 75 Ohm connectors and the amplifier termination is 75 Ohms then use the BNC output. There also isn't much to be point in using controlled impedance lines at low frequencies (such as SPDIF) unless the line is VERY long. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47046 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
