Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
david_a_woodward;316973 Wrote: Hi there, I hope someone can help, Ive read a fair few posts, but as is often the way cant find the info I am looking for. I am new to ripping, I have a collection of about 500 CDs and I am on the brink of lashing out some hard earned cash on SB3/Duet/Transporter (3 rooms) and TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3i (unless anyone recommends a better alternative), so should not have space constraints? I have always been a keen audiophile with a Michell GyroDec, CD2/82/250/SBL Naim system, this is where I plan to add the Transporter, (can I share the Duet remote with the Transporter, SB3 and Duet systems?) I am looking for the best quality I can achieve, but I do not want to spend too long discovering (and learning) the best suite of amazing software programs that appear to be available to use, nor labouring over very slow rip/tagging. I do want to view cover art on the duet controller and would like to easily move some/all(?) of the ripped CDs to a, yet to purchased, ipod. So what is my dilemma? I gather, but may have got the wrong end of the stick, the two obvious choices are to use iTunes, seems to be viewed as the easiest and simplest workflow in ripping, tagging, cover art etc in ALAC loseless format, or go down the, what appears to be, much more daunting sounding, EAC/FLAC/various other tools for cover art extraction etc route. I am not too concerned about being locked into Apples proprietary approach provided it works well with SB technology, and makes my life easier to transfer my CD library. I am keen to know the pros and cons of each approach, so I can make a better informed decision. Thank you all in advance for you valued comments. The simple thing to do is use dBpowerAmp to Rip and tag your files in FLAC format. FLAC converts to almost anything else you might ever need and allows you to stay far away from iTunes. -- iPhone *iPhone* 'Last.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/mephone) Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono Blocks, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Bedroom: SB3, NAD C370, Thiel 2.3 Home Office: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, VSM-1 Sigs Mobile: SB3, Audioengine A5 iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Wow, thanks for all the help, very active forum!! thought a question about iTunes v open standards might provoke some debate! I have downloaded dbpoweramp and am very impressed, seen enough to decide this is the way to go, and rip to FLAC and also MP3 for iPod. Just need to figure out how I get the MP3's into iTunes, I assume this is straight forward? Anyone got any views as to the suitability of the TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3i? Any better alternative at a similar price point? Thanks again for all your input. -- david_a_woodward david_a_woodward's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Phil Leigh;317064 Wrote: There are some discs with flawed copy protection schemas that need many many sector re-reads to get the data off acurately... For example, I have The Beatles Let it Be Naked that takes 2 hours to rip with EAC and the disc is in physically mint condition! Well I did say IME. :) Perhaps I'm spoiled with cdparanoia on Linux...the following sums up my views. http://folk.uio.no/hpv/linuxtoons/dilbert-unix.png Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
david_a_woodward;317191 Wrote: Wow, thanks for all the help, very active forum!! thought a question about iTunes v open standards might provoke some debate! Ah now see you posted in the Audiophile forums. If you wanted some debate you should ask if a $10,000 power cord for your refrigerator will improve the sound of your Transporter. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
darrenyeats;317288 Wrote: Well I did say IME. :) Perhaps I'm spoiled with cdparanoia on Linux...the following sums up my view. http://folk.uio.no/hpv/linuxtoons/dilbert-unix.png Darren That made me laugh - thanks Darren! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
sc53;317065 Wrote: But if it takes 20 mins per disc (Apple Lossless takes about 5 mins per disk) or requires tons of initial setup etc. I'd use iTunes and not worry about that one track out of thousands that may contain an audible error. There are two separate processes here - ripping and encoding. Apple Lossless doesn't rip, iTunes does. iTunes then encodes the resulting rip into Apple Lossless or MP3. Programs other than iTunes (dBpowerAMP for example) can also encode into ALAC. The speed of ripping doesn't influence the speed of encoding. In terms of encoding speed, there aren't huge advantages in any one format. For example, when FLAC was slower than ALAC it was changed and now is at least as fast. Personally, I don't really care how long ripping takes as long as it's as correct as possible. You can leave your computer and go do other things. Often those protected CDs take ~24 hours to rip... ps Phil Leigh--I have Let It Be Naked too and had no problems ripping it with iTunes! These protected CDs usually contain purposeful errors every 2-5 seconds. This shows that iTunes will happily rip such errors and not tell you. A secure ripper will have a problem with this because it will detect the errors and attempt to correct them, that's the point of this protection mechanism - to frustrate the user and discourage ripping. These errors are not necessarily audible, but they are there. -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here. If iTunes and other less secure rippers popular with the general public do not get hung up on such purposeful errors - where is the deterrent value in their inclusion? Or are the record companies trying to deter the admittedly small percentage of people in the marketplace who are concerned about their rips not being bit-perfect? Shouldn't their efforts be focused on deterring the common user? Ted -- esbrewer esbrewer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12409 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
esbrewer;317310 Wrote: I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here. If iTunes and other less secure rippers popular with the general public do not get hung up on such purposeful errors - where is the deterrent value in their inclusion? Well, record companies aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, are they? :-) It was a hairbrained scheme that was in use from 2003 to about 2005. The idea was that these errors (probably only a few bits) would be inaudible in a regular CD player but that a ripper would stumble on them. Rippers who don't do any error correction won't stumble on them because they just play straight through like a regular CD player does, errors and all. Or are the record companies trying to deter the admittedly small percentage of people in the marketplace who are concerned about their rips not being bit-perfect? Shouldn't their efforts be focused on deterring the common user? They've abandoned such schemes now, but it culminated in the infamous Sony rootkit debacle. That's as far as they went and they definitely crossed the line. -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
esbrewer;317310 Wrote: I'm not sure I follow the reasoning here. If iTunes and other less secure rippers popular with the general public do not get hung up on such purposeful errors - where is the deterrent value in their inclusion? Or are the record companies trying to deter the admittedly small percentage of people in the marketplace who are concerned about their rips not being bit-perfect? Shouldn't their efforts be focused on deterring the common user? Ted Well I not sure about insecure rippers handling those CDs well. I have a CD that has this attempt at DRM in place and I did rip it with iTunes and it ripped very quickly however when I played it back it was full of pops and clicks. Ran it through EAC and it took almost a day to rip, but was clean when it finished. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317316 Wrote: Well I not sure about insecure rippers handling those CDs well. I have a CD that has this attempt at DRM in place and I did rip it with iTunes and it ripped very quickly however when I played it back it was full of pops and clicks. Ran it through EAC and it took almost a day to rip, but was clean when it finished. There were multiple schemes from different companies and they got better at what they were trying to do as time went on. Googling finds this list: SafeDisc, SafeDisc v2, SecuROM, DiscGuard, CD-Cops, LaserLock, Cactus Data Shield, Lock Blocks, ProtectCD, PSX/Lybcrypt, CD-Check, Dummy Files, Oversize Illegal TOC There once was a software tool out there that could identify what type of protection was on a disc. Couldn't do anything about it though. -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317316 Wrote: Well I not sure about insecure rippers handling those CDs well. I have a CD that has this attempt at DRM in place and I did rip it with iTunes and it ripped very quickly however when I played it back it was full of pops and clicks. Ran it through EAC and it took almost a day to rip, but was clean when it finished. Different drives always used to make a difference. I bought loads of CDs from cdwow.com before I realised they had copy protection - the best thing to rip them with back then (that I found) was CDex, set to full paranoia, autorun off and an old NEC drive. Normal speed rips, and only 2-3 clicks in the last track. Now I'm another dBpoweramp convert, I've found that secure mode doesn't work so well with these - whereas Burst mode rips them fine with no audible artifacts. I used to take the rips are rips view and used iTunes. But dBpoweramp is easier, and the fact that you can verify it's 100% bit-perfect is a nice bonus. Before I was ripping to ALAC in iTunes, deleting the files from iTunes, tagging them with mp3tag (embedding artwork at the same time), adding them back to iTunes, using iTunes to convert them to AAC for my iPod (dual library). Argh! Now dBpoweramp lets me do all of that securely in one go with one mouse-click with artwork and whatever file/folder structure I like, and ALAC and mp3 at the same time and did I mention the artwork? Then all I do is drag the folder into iTunes. Done. Seriously, dBpoweramp is really, -really- good - and Spoon (the man behind it) is on his forums all the time, he listens and actions requests/problems etc, and best of all you can download it and try it for free for about 2 weeks! I'm not affiliated to Illustrate at all, btw, but it's amazing how much time I've saved using dBpoweramp. -- moley6knipe 2 x SqueezeBox 3 | 1 x SqueezeCenter 7 | 1 x Win XP Pro SP2 | 1 x Happy listener :-) moley6knipe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10014 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
My opinion: 1) If you're not 100% tied to iTunes, use FLAC. 2) If you're serious about sound quality, don't use iTunes for ripping. I use dbpoweramp to rip to FLAC for the main library, then the flac2mp3 script to create a low bitrate mp3 copy of everything which is seen by iTunes for loading onto portables. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Here's a similar discussion: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6493742 -- alekz alekz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
radish;316977 Wrote: 2) If you're serious about sound quality, don't use iTunes for ripping. That's an interesting comment. Surely if any other ripping tool were being used it would be using the same drive and unless the CD were damaged, there would be very little error concealment going on, only error correction, which by definition fixes up any read errors. Why would iTunes be worse? It's always worked well for me. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
I use Dbpoweramp to rip to ALAC, I use iTunes to manage the music. Dbpoweramp will allow you to rip to either Flac or ALAC. DBpoweramp is a much better ripper than iTunes it has both secure, ultra secure and accuraterip checking, iTunes has none of these important ripping tools. As far as sound quality flac=ALAC I've tried ripping to both and though a good system ( Plinius, Proac, Meridian, PS Audio etc) I could here no difference. Hope this helps. -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
dbpoweramp is probably the best bet for ripping right now. I have not seen a program that does better for metadata than dbpoweramp including getting coverart. And for secure ripping it does a great job. For your needs I would recommend the reference version. I wish I had dbpoweramp when I started ripping music many years ago! As for FLAC versus ALAC. For sound quality it does not matter one bit. For playback support is where it matters. What will you play the songs back the most on? Squeezebox or iTunes? If Squeezebox use FLAC, if iTunes use ALAC. Since FLAC and ALAC are lossless you can convert between the two whenever you want and not lose any quality. If you have dbpoweramp it is as simple as selecting the folder where you music resides and say convert, it even handles your metadata and coverart. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Forgot to add you can use the Squeezebox controller to control ANY Squeezebox device including the transporter. This even includes the original Slimp3. Heck you can use it to control Softsqueeze. The controller actually does not control the players them self directly it tells the server to control the players. The same is true for the IR remotes for the players. The player has the IR receiver but it just sends the IR info back to the server and then the server tells the player what to do. This is how you can remap the IR codes on the server itself. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
CardinalFang;316984 Wrote: That's an interesting comment. Surely if any other ripping tool were being used it would be using the same drive and unless the CD were damaged, there would be very little error concealment going on, only error correction, which by definition fixes up any read errors. Why would iTunes be worse? It's always worked well for me. The issue is handling read errors. It is actually very difficult to detect a read error for audio CDs. Some drives handle errors better than others, however non of them are consistent in how they handle the errors. You can get read errors from a brand new CD. What programs like EAC and dbpoweramp do is read the data over and over until they get the same result back a certain number of times. Which is why they are slower. They also do things like fluch the drives cache to avoid rereading the cache data. Drive offset is another thing to take into account too, each drive has a different offset value. dbpoweramp determines this by comparing your drives read of certain key discs to other drives results it keeps on a server. It also uses this data on the server to determine if your reads for a certain disc corresponds to other peoples reads of the same disc to help identify if you get a good read. He says it better: http://www.dbpoweramp.com/spoons-audio-guide-cd-ripping.htm -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
CardinalFang;316994 Wrote: But it's only an issue if error correction isn't sufficient. Most CDs require error correction, which iTunes handles, very few require concealment or multiple reads to get the data. If error correction is working, then there should be no difference between rippers, it's only when CDs are so badly damaged that error concealment is required, and that's when re-reads and interpolation etc. come in and iTunes may be insufficient. For the vast majority of CDs, I don't think that's the case. No see that is what you are missing Redbook audio really does not have any way to handle error corrections. When audio CDs came out technology did not exist that could handle and correct errors fast enough for streamed audio. So the thought was if a read error occurs who cares too late to fix it keep on trucking. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317006 Wrote: No see that is what you are missing Redbook audio really does not have any way to handle error corrections. When audio CDs came out technology did not exist that could handle and correct errors fast enough for streamed audio. So the thought was if a read error occurs who cares too late to fix it keep on trucking. Because of this the data on an audio CD does not contain any parity bits or the like, so the C2 error handling is at best a bandaid on the problem. Indeed - they stopped putting those error displays on CD players pretty quickly! Redbook is different to everything that came later. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
I see errors that need dbpoweramps's special touch frequently, even on brand new CDs. If I were using iTunes (or any other non-secure ripper) I wouldn't even know there was an issue until/unless I actually heard it. My wife ripped a bunch of CDs with iTunes before we met and I'm now going back through re-doing them with dbp, it's amazing how many tracks she had with pops/cracks which she thought was normal - and that's just the easily audible problems. I'm sure there are many more subtle faults which a good system would reveal. If you're spending $ on gear you may as well spend $20 to make sure the data's right in the first place. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317006 Wrote: No see that is what you are missing Redbook audio really does not have any way to handle error corrections. When audio CDs came out technology did not exist that could handle and correct errors fast enough for streamed audio. So the thought was if a read error occurs who cares too late to fix it keep on trucking. Because of this the data on an audio CD does not contain any parity bits or the like, so the C2 error handling is at best a bandaid on the problem. That's not entirely true - the error correction happens in the CD PLAYER during real-time playback. If there is a frame or two that are corrupt (@ 75-frames per second) then the player interpolates its BEST GUESS of what should fill the 'hole' based on what was happening before or after the error. Ripping doesn't have error correction for audio, but I think you already said that. -- Eric Seaberg Eric Seaberg - San Diego - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eric Seaberg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7896 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Eric Seaberg;317024 Wrote: That's not entirely true - the error correction happens in the CD PLAYER during real-time playback. If there is a frame or two that are corrupt (@ 75-frames per second) then the player interpolates its BEST GUESS of what should fill the 'hole' based on what was happening before or after the error. Ripping doesn't have error correction for audio, but I think you already said that. Good point Eric. Interpolation works reasonably well for audio. Not so good for CD-Roms though...hence yellowbook etc -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317006 Wrote: No see that is what you are missing Redbook audio really does not have any way to handle error corrections. Nope, RedBook does indeed contain error correction. This is from a HP CDROM technical paper, but there are plenty of other references: Because the CD-ROM disk has a very high bit density, it has an inherent error rate of [10.sup.-5] to [10.sup.-6] errors per bit. The red book standard, which has become International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) standard 908, specifies the CD audio media format and provides a parity and error correction scheme that reduces the error rate to 10-11 to [10.sup.-12] errors per bit. All CD manufacturers provide this level of error protection. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
CardinalFang;317030 Wrote: Nope, RedBook does indeed contain error correction - and iTunes has an option to use it. This is from a HP CDROM technical paper, but there are plenty of other references: Because the CD-ROM disk has a very high bit density, it has an inherent error rate of [10.sup.-5] to [10.sup.-6] errors per bit. The red book standard, which has become International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) standard 908, specifies the CD audio media format and provides a parity and error correction scheme that reduces the error rate to 10-11 to [10.sup.-12] errors per bit. All CD manufacturers provide this level of error protection. My point is that errors can be corrected by any ripper if they're not too bad, it's only when they are bad enough to need concealment that the rippers that can go back and re-read or interpolate have an advantage. I just believe that most CD aren't that badly damaged. They all have errors, but most are corrected. Bottom line is this, would you want to spend the time to rip 500 CDs and possibly have errors in the data but really have no way to know until you listen to each and every track. Or use a proper program and rip 500 CDs and know that you have no errors in the data. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
CardinalFang;317030 Wrote: Nope, RedBook does indeed contain error correction True, Redbook does contain a certain level of error correction. But if you read through the specs further, this level was deemed un-satisfactory for data CD's, where it's impossible to cover up errors by interpolation or other techniques. As a result, data CD's have a secondary level of error checking/correction, not found on music discs. Like others here have posted, I have many examples of CD's which have no visible damage, yet have tracks which are difficult to get a bit perfect rip. That's why I always use EAC to rip, both to FLAC for Squeeze, and to iTunes. YMMV, Dave -- DCtoDaylight Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Whatever the failings of red book good rippers have it nailed. In short, rubbish CD drives can get bit-perfect rips with cdparanoia or similar rippers. The drive offset has nothing to do with SQ at all. It might affect micro-seconds in terms of when a track starts, I don't stress about it myself. IME the only time you don't get perfect rips (and then only sometimes) is with scratched discs. This is IME true no matter what the computer or drive including DVD drives. A good clean disc = perfect rip according to the many checks I've made (using cksum on Unix to compare bit-level content - the drive offset must be right for such tests of course). EAC and the like might be useful if you've got somewhat scratched discs. I don't have much experience of the iTunes ripper, I'm just letting you know what happens with a decent ripper. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
darrenyeats;317047 Wrote: EAC and the like might be useful if you've got somewhat scratched discs. This is what I do not get, why would you use any other ripper then? Chances are everyone will come across a CD that needs the error handling that EAC, cdparanoia and dbpoweramp provide. So why not just pick one and use it? -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
darrenyeats;317047 Wrote: Whatever the failings of red book good rippers have it nailed. In short, rubbish CD drives can get bit-perfect rips with cdparanoia or similar rippers. The drive offset has nothing to do with SQ at all. It might affect micro-seconds in terms of when a track starts, I don't stress about it myself. IME the only time you don't get perfect rips (and then only sometimes) is with scratched discs. This is IME true no matter what the computer or drive including DVD drives. A good clean disc = perfect rip according to the many checks I've made (using cksum on Unix to compare bit-level content - the drive offset must be right for such tests of course). EAC and the like might be useful if you've got somewhat scratched discs. I don't have much experience of the iTunes ripper, I'm just letting you know what happens with a decent ripper. Darren There are some discs with flawed copy protection schemas that need many many sector re-reads to get the data off acurately... For example, I have The Beatles Let it Be Naked that takes 2 hours to rip with EAC and the disc is in physically mint condition! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
I'm a keen audiophile too and have owned lots of good equipment over the years. I started ripping some of my CDs to iTunes about 6 yrs ago when I got my first iPod. I've always used Apple Lossless even on my iPods--I don't try to get my whole music collection on the thing, just what I fancy at the time, which can and does change. I've got about 200 GB of music on my iMac now (actually on a Lacie external drive), all ripped to Apple Lossless, and only once did I have a track that popped like a scratched LP when I played it back. In fact, I actually forgot and thought I was listening to an old LP till I did a double take and realized I was in my car listening to my iPod through my fancy car stereo! I reripped that disk and the pop went away. I guess if I was starting from scratch today I'd try dbpoweramp as recommended, to see if it's really as easy as using iTunes on my iMac, my iPods, and my Squeezeboxes. If it really is as painless and easy to use as iTunes then I'd go with it. But if it takes 20 mins per disc (Apple Lossless takes about 5 mins per disk) or requires tons of initial setup etc. I'd use iTunes and not worry about that one track out of thousands that may contain an audible error. Once you find that track, just rerip the disk. All of my music comes from my own CDs anyway so it's no big deal to go browse my shelves (yes I still do that too) and rerip it. I also find the tagging and cover art works perfectly with iTunes. I purchased the Mac program Cover Sutra to find any missing artwork in my iTunes library and that has filled in the 3% of albums (compilations and the like) that iTunes couldn't obtain. ps Phil Leigh--I have Let It Be Naked too and had no problems ripping it with iTunes! -- sc53 sc53's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8690 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317040 Wrote: Bottom line is this, would you want to spend the time to rip 500 CDs and possibly have errors in the data but really have no way to know until you listen to each and every track. Or use a proper program and rip 500 CDs and know that you have no errors in the data. Also I have found that many CDs have errors, even brand new CDs. They all have errors, but it's whether they can be corrected or not is the issue. iTunes works for me, the only time I ever found an problem, I cleaned the disk and re-ripped it and all was fine. I'm a Mac user and I do run Parallels, so I could use these other rippers, but to be honest I haven't found the need, because when I did trial them they were painfully slow and gave no discernible improvement. The only reason I posted was because it was said that if you care about audio, you shouldn't use iTunes, which is misleading. It only matters if you have disks that error correction can't fix and then a more industrial strength solution is needed. I haven't needed it. I will admit that EAC and the ilk do appeal to the geeky audiophile part of me, but the busy pragmatic side makes me use iTunes because it is a far more pleasant experience. I'd rather be listening than ripping. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
It doesn't matter how good your stereo is - garbage in garbage out. I find it astonishing that in the same forum as people talk about things like SPDIF jitter and 24-bit digitial volume scaling as being detrimental to sound quality that there's anyone who's unwilling to use a good ripper. Do you really think that all read errors are as obvious as a pop? A few bits off here and there may well not be obvious until you compare to the original CD (and who does that?) but it will make orders of magnitude more difference to the SQ than a dithering volume control. It's like spending $5k on a cartridge but not wiping dust off the record. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
CardinalFang;317072 Wrote: I'm a Mac user and I do run Parallels, so I could use these other rippers, but to be honest I haven't found the need, because when I did trial them they were painfully slow and gave no discernible improvement. The only reason I posted was because it was said that if you care about audio, you shouldn't use iTunes, which is misleading. It only matters if you have disks that error correction can't fix and then a more industrial strength solution is needed. I haven't needed it. I will admit that EAC and the ilk do appeal to the geeky audiophile part of me, but the busy pragmatic side makes me use iTunes because it is a far more pleasant experience. I'd rather be listening than ripping. Ah that is the rub, you are on iTunes. iTunes is great if you do EVERYTHING in iTunes, however if you do not drink the koolaid iTunes is a bear to play with. Even though I have and love my iPod, and have a Macbook Pro that I also am found of. iTunes is the worst program I have ever used. It is extremely selfish and thinks that it and only it should ever touch your music. Just the simple task of using an outside ripper to rip your music with iTunes is a pain. Why, because iTunes has no feature to monitor a music folder for new or changed music. It has been awhile since I used iTunes but I seem to remember having many issues with the itunes db just going belly up because I made a minor change to my music without its permission. And your comment that it only matters IF you have disks that need it. Well how do you know if you do or not. Does iTunes tell you hey this disk ripped with pops and cracks? No it does not. So unless you audition each and every disk after you rip it you will not know. If you use a proper ripper like EAC, dbpoweramp, or cdparanoia they will not only do a better job ripping the disk but also give you a nice report. However you must be extremely lucky to own nothing but perfect disks. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
radish;317085 Wrote: I find it astonishing that in the same forum as people talk about things like SPDIF jitter and 24-bit digitial volume scaling as being detrimental to sound quality that there's anyone who's unwilling to use a good ripper. I do use a good ripper - iTunes. I haven't read anything that says it doesn't rip CDs well. So far it's all hearsay and conjecture, no actual data to back it up. I don't spend $5K on cartridges and don't fuss about room treatments, but equally I don't want to listen to music through a cheap box. However, I have realised during this conversation that I'm probably not an audiophile in the terms that others may view the subject. I'm prefer to enjoy my music, not analyse it and fuss about the nth degree of accuracy. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
CardinalFang;317087 Wrote: From my standpoint I do use a good ripper - iTunes. I haven't read anything that says it doesn't rip CDs well. So far it's all hearsay and conjecture, no actual data to back it up. I've been checking cds out of the library and ripping them with both iTunes and EAC (one for iPod, one for SB3, and yes, I realize I could convert the flac to mp3, but I find this easier). Obviously, library cds are not in the best shape. I'm using a Plextor PX-716 drive. I'm using iTunes 7.6.2.9 with the use error correction when reading Audio CDs option selected. iTunes has NEVER complained about ANY of the library CDs I have fed it. However, when ripping the same CDs with EAC, about 25% of the CDs have hard read errors that I have to work around by ripping specific tracks without full error correction. Another 25% of the CDs have errors that cause EAC to reread up to 20 times before getting correct data. I've noticed the same pattern with a few of the new CDs I have purchased. None have had hard read errors, but many have required EAC to reread. Since there were known uncorrectable errors on the CDs that iTunes didn't report and couldn't correct, I would say that iTunes wasn't a good choice for reliable lossless ripping. Regards, Kim -- krochat -- Acourate - Inguz DSP - SB3 - GW Labs DSP (96kHz upsampler) - Apogee Big Ben - TacT RCS 2.2X - 2x TacT S2150 - Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
Oh and back to the OP. Since you have 500 CDs and you want to simplify the ripping process and make it faster. dbpoweramp supports batch ripping using many different types of auto-loaders. While the auto-loaders are not exactly cheap it would make fairly quick and painless work of 500 CDs. I am anal about my metatags however with dbpoweramps tagging system I would actually trust it with batch ripping and getting the tags right. Forgot to mention if you do not want to buy an autoloader, you can set up a machine with multiple cdroms and use those. Rip 2,3,4 or more at a time. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317098 Wrote: I am anal about my metatags however with dbpoweramps tagging system I would actually trust it with batch ripping and getting the tags right. I wouldn't and I'm not even remotely anal about tags. While dbPowerAmp is absolutely brilliant and its multiple tagging sources are far more reliable than anything else I have used, they do still need some manual cleaning up on some discs. -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
andynormancx;317104 Wrote: I wouldn't and I'm not even remotely anal about tags. While dbPowerAmp is absolutely brilliant and its multiple tagging sources are far more reliable than anything else I have used, they do still need some manual cleaning up on some discs. well i have not used the batch ripper yet. however i think it will give you a report to allow you to tweak the files afterwards. also have you used the llatest ver. with the use of 4 datasources. it really does well. oh another ttrick dbpoweramp does is it can detect hdcds and encode the flac to 24bit to support the 20bit hdcd data. -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
m1abrams;317112 Wrote: well i have not used the batch ripper yet. however i think it will give you a report to allow you to tweak the files afterwards. also have you used the llatest ver. with the use of 4 datasources. it really does well. I haven't used the batch ripper either yet. Yes I am using the latest version with the 4 data sources, but I still have to fix up some discs (though I rarely have to type any titles/artists in myself, just overriding for some tracks which meta data source is used). -- andynormancx Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ? I SAID ALL OF THEM ! andynormancx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17417 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
andynormancx;317094 Wrote: Or even better, use the multi encoder functionality to do it all in one go. Very true, and a cool feature. If anyone cares, the reason I don't do it this way is that I sometimes find myself editing tags post-rip (correct a spelling error, normalize a genre, whatever) and I like to be able to do that just in the flac file and rerun the script to sync up the mp3s. That way I know 100% that everything is consistent. One thing I'd also like to throw out there in case it's useful - I use a thing called iTLU (http://itlu.ownz.ch/) to sync the iTunes library to my mp3 directory. If anyone knows of a better tool for the job please let us know :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FLAC or ALAC that is the question!?
andynormancx;317094 Wrote: Or even better, use the multi encoder functionality to do it all in one go. I have dbPowerAmp set up so that it rips flacs into one folder, hi bit rate MP3s into another folder and low bit rate MP3s for my phone into a third folder. All completely automatic once it is setup. Or use dbpoweramp AFTER you have ripped to your entire collection to FLAC and have it convert to mp3 or whatever format for you. Not that either one of the above options is bad or wrong. I actually used to use a perl script I wrote that was very similar to flac2mp3 for just that purpose. However I discovered a better option. Jriver Media Center, a pretty nice media player that supports transcoding to the ipod or other player on the fly. No more trying to keep 2 formats in sync :). -- m1abrams m1abrams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=49492 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
