Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
bakker_be wrote: If you think Sweden is too small, what about Belgium, with it's 3 different language communities :D That said, I can easily see an EC-wide service being viable, especially as I look at the different nationalities present in the audience at Belgian music festivals. I'm in South Africa. There is no legal way for me to purchase mp3 from international artists. Don't even think about flacs... There are a couple of local music only mp3 setups. Why are they insisting on borders when internet is global phenomenon? lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Borders are even more outdated than ipv4. But they're going to take much longer to replace. Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Mnyb wrote: SNIP ... The greatest problem as I see it is the market lock in in small sub-markets with different copyrigths holders . If one could create a global lossless download system with global pricing etc ,the market share would be big enough for real business. The US itself is just big enough to support HD-tracks. Sweden (where i live ) is to small to harbour any lossles download provider , i suspect it is like that in many markets . ... SNIP If you think Sweden is too small, what about Belgium, with it's 3 different language communities :D That said, I can easily see an EC-wide service being viable, especially as I look at the different nationalities present in the audience at Belgian music festivals. bakker_be's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30369 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
We all like to think of record companies as idiots, and indeed they have shown themselves to be so many times in the past. But I think there is a more rational reason why they only offer lossy downloads: 1). To offer lossless would require them to pay for more bandwidth. 2). To cover the cost of the extra bandwidth, they'd have to charge more for the lossless option. 3). But 99% of their customer base couldn't give a rat's about the difference between lossless and lossy, and would therefore never pay the extra. 4). Conclusion: there is simply no business case at all in offering lossless. cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
cliveb wrote: We all like to think of record companies as idiots, and indeed they have shown themselves to be so many times in the past. But I think there is a more rational reason why they only offer lossy downloads: 1). To offer lossless would require them to pay for more bandwidth. 2). To cover the cost of the extra bandwidth, they'd have to charge more for the lossless option. 3). But 99% of their customer base couldn't give a rat's about the difference between lossless and lossy, and would therefore never pay the extra. 4). Conclusion: there is simply no business case at all in offering lossless. I think there is a business case albeit not that massmarket. FLAC downloads are very popular on the net ! so there is a significant demand and a lot of people recognise that they are better than mp3, I think there is more than 1% . If you could get distribution and pricing structure rigth, it does not have to be mass-market to be viable at first (HD tracks proves that, they probably sell only 1000's of some of their content ), the initial cost is not that high not like pressing CD's . The greatest problem as I see it is the market lock in in small sub-markets with different copyrigths holders . If one could create a global lossless download system with global pricing etc ,the market share would be big enough for real business. The US itself is just big enough to support HD-tracks. Sweden (where i live ) is to small to harbour any lossles download provider , i suspect it is like that in many markets . So there are many markets where the copyrigths mess makes a whole lot of aditional trouble compared to the US , I'm quite amazed that iTunes managed to wrestle that at all , and if I remember correctly it was some time before iTunes emerged outside of US and the content is still probably not the same in all markets and the pricing is different seems they managed to implement parts of the old broken regional system inside iTunes to make record labels happy . . Bandwith is cheap if using torrent technology , if your service included a torrent client and a buyer as part of the deal also uploaded to other byurs while dl the purchase it would not be nice. Also bandwidth is getting cheaper, suppose this is not a problem in a couple of years . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
I agree that the very limited availability of lossless content is an issue that the industry seems unwilling to address - to their own detriment. Additionally, as a music loving consumer today I'm faced with: - very few (if any) record stores with decent depth and breadth of catalogue beyond the current so called top 20 - limited availability in my neighbourhood/ country of CDs by artists I enjoy (sure, I can order them through the local stores, pay a hefty premium and wait 4-7 weeks for them to arrive) - very limited ability to purchase music in lossless format - (often) poorly mastered CDs with little to no dynamic range - (many) popular music artists putting out completely forgettable albums containing a single or two that you'd spin for a few days/ weeks and then spit out like old chewing gum. How many really classic albums have been released since Nirvana's heyday? The end result is artists putting out disposable crap are ignored and I buy a lot less than I otherwise would (you can gear their current crap on the radio anytime you care to turn it on for at least a month following release --- it's meaningless drivel anyhow), and when I do, if it's not a lossless download from places like Bandcamp it's usually an album from a musician whose music I know well, ordered from Amazon. I'd not be at all surprised if it was found that the overwhelming majority of music piracy is carried out by teens and people in their 20's and the pirated content is the mindless drivel/ disposable crap I refer to above - it is after all stuff that has little to no artistic or intrinsic value and it's probably treated accordingly. audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
audiomuze wrote: i'd not be at all surprised if it was found that the overwhelming majority of music piracy is carried out by teens and people in their 20's and the pirated content is the mindless drivel/ disposable crap i refer to above - it is after all stuff that has little to no artistic or intrinsic value and it's probably treated accordingly. qft. Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
So what are the reasons why record companies usually won't make lossless downloads available alongside the lossy? They must have their reasons - anyone know? HeadBanger's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38024 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
HeadBanger wrote: So what are the reasons why record companies usually won't make lossless downloads available alongside the lossy? They must have their reasons - anyone know? Three reasons that I can think of: 1) The record companies are afraid that making lossless files available will somehow increase piracy even though CDs can be easily ripped into lossless files and made available for illegal download through all the usual methods. 2) The great and all powerful iTunes store does not offer lossless downloads so why should a powerless record company take it upon themselves to offer lossless downloads and possibly anger the iTunes gods. 3) They are simply morons. If I had to vote I'd go with number 3 although number 2 is the more likely reason. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
ralphpnj wrote: Three reasons that I can think of: 1) The record companies are afraid that making lossless files available will somehow increase piracy even though CDs can be easily ripped into lossless files and made available for illegal download through all the usual methods. 2) The great and all powerful iTunes store does not offer lossless downloads so why should a powerless record company take it upon themselves to offer lossless downloads and possibly anger the iTunes gods. 3) They are simply morons. If I had to vote I'd go with number 3 although number 2 is the more likely reason. I Go for nr 3 , there are examples of content aviable as lossles and iTunes so 2 can not be valid... Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Mnyb wrote: I Go for nr 3 , there are examples of content aviable as lossles and iTunes so 2 can not be valid... iTunes has true lossless (and not simply high bit rate lossy) content available for purchase and download? Surely you must be joking. I need solid proof. It's not that I doubt you, rather I simply think that you are mistaken. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
ralphpnj wrote: iTunes has true lossless (and not simply high bit rate lossy) content available for purchase and download? Surely you must be joking. I need solid proof. It's not that I doubt you, rather I simply think that you are mistaken. Not iTunes ,music can be aviable as lossles someplace else AND as lossy on iTunes at the same time . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Mnyb wrote: Not iTunes ,music can be aviable as lossles someplace else AND as lossy on iTunes at the same time . Sure there are various websites where lossless music can be legally purchased, such as HDTracks, Bandcamp and sites run by various artists and record labels, but I believe that the total of all the lossless downloads from all these sites is a mere fraction of the total of lossy downloads sold through iTunes. That is why nothing will really change until iTunes begins to offer lossless downloads. Like it or not, iTunes controls the music download market and can therefore dictate what type of music is offered. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
RussellMrgn wrote: At the moment I'm being forced to obtain Hi Res files by other means by the very people who complain about me doing it go figure. The record companies are indeed part of their own problem. If they are unhappy with people downloading lossless music from dubious sources why do they simply not make them available for purchase? Yes, there are some sites that offer lossless downloads but the choice is extremely limited and usually the download versions are actually more expensive than buying the CD on-line and the CD version includes the physical media, artwork, packaging and delivery to your door! Go figure. The simply rules of demand and supply and are being ignored by the record companies. Their customers want lossless downloads at reasonable prices (certainly less than a CD) but refuse to supply them and then moan about music piracy. It would be like a sports shop stocking premium trainers but only selling mediocre trainers and then moaning about the number of premium trainers that have been stolen. HeadBanger's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38024 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Fozzy wrote: For me, morally as well as legally, one should obtain music in a way that at least has the potential to provide the writers and performers of the music with money unless they specifically choose to give the music away. In the olden days, before mass copying technology became affordable and available to the mainstream audiences, the only way you could enjoy music is by attending the actual performance. That does not necessarily mean attending the actual live performance. For example, the publishing house could record a popular band, such as the Beatles, but then instead of mass producing the sound carriers (such as LPs) to be distributed, they could've arranged for a series of scheduled playbacks at certain venues. One could easily imagine an event where distributors could charge admission fees (like $10.00 per person) for attending the playback of the Beatles album Abbey Road. People would show up, pay the admission, be seated, and then the playback would commence. Side A, short intermission, Side B. After which everybody goes home. You want to hear Abbey Road again? Sure, pay $10.00 and attend another 'performance'. And so on. The above is how the movie industry used to function. That was during the pre-VHS/DVD/blu ray/Netflix/Youtube days. Why music industry chose to go with a different model, whereby they would mass produce and distribute copies of the recorded performance, is a curious fact that remains kind of difficult to explain. Have they stuck with the movie industry model (i.e. you pay each time you want to attend the playback), I'm sure they would've made much more money in the long run. But by now, the cat is out of the bag, as we all are in possession of dirt cheap means for not only making unlimited number of identical copies of recorded music, but also unlimited channels for distributing and sharing these copies. magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
pippin wrote: Depends. For studio albums I couldn't care less about lossless since they are all mixed for mp3 these days anyway, so there's no difference. Live recordings, however, are a different issue. As a jazz and classical music fan and listener I beg to differ. You are referring only to most popular music. There are still plenty of great sounding jazz and classical music recordings being made that are most definitely not being mixed for mp3 since many of the potential buyers have no idea what an mp3 is, i.e. think middle aged audiophile. Then again these buyers have no idea what lossless is either, in fact all they know are little silver discs played back on overpriced and out dated players. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
magiccarpetride wrote: Why music industry chose to go with a different model, whereby they would mass produce and distribute copies of the recorded performance, is a curious fact that remains kind of difficult to explain. Actually, it is quite easy to explain. The recorded music industry came directly from the music publishing industry. It wasn't until the 1940s that records started outselling sheet music. It's impossible to use the movie model you describe to monetize sheet music. People buy sheet music so they can play the song on their own instrument in their home. Sheet music sales to the public was a big deal that dated back to 1880, when industry started the mass production of upright pianos for the home market. The song After The Ball by Charles Harris sold around 2 million copies in 1892 and millions more in the years after. (Piano rolls for player pianos was also a big seller,) Before TV, only the rich could afford a movie projector for their home, so the idea of mass distribution of films was an impossibility in the old days. However, record players were quite affordable for the middle class, as were records. The transition of the mass market from sheet music to records was quite natural, plus radio broadcasting had already established the public's expectation that music in their home was a given, whether by broadcast or record. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
mlsstl wrote: Actually, it is quite easy to explain. The recorded music industry came directly from the music publishing industry. It wasn't until the 1940s that records started outselling sheet music. It's impossible to use the movie model you describe to monetize sheet music. People buy sheet music so they can play the song on their own instrument in their home. Sheet music sales to the public was a big deal that dated back to 1880, when industry started the mass production of upright pianos for the home market. The song After The Ball by Charles Harris sold around 2 million copies in 1892 and millions more in the years after. (Piano rolls for player pianos were also big sellers,) Before TV, only the rich could afford a movie projector for their home, so the idea of mass distribution of films was an impossibility in the old days. However, record players were quite affordable for the middle class, as were records. The transition of the mass market from sheet music to records was quite natural, plus radio broadcasting had already established the public's expectation that music in their home was a given, whether by broadcast or record. Very well stated and AFAIK accurate as well. Thank you. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
bakker_be wrote: as a european music lover, i mostly object to the so-called convenience of itunes or any other service: It's almost impossible for me to get good music legally + lossless. Quite a lot of the stuff on hdtracks for instance is interesting to me, but strictly speaking i'm forbidden to buy it, as i'm not a us citizen. The offerings of linn etc are somewhat too esoteric for my tastes, and there's only so much classical music i can take. This means that the music industry is forcing me to keep buying physical media, which i then have to rip, tag, scan for replaygain, scan for musicip ... I still do this, but a whole lot less than i'd like to, because: -i only have so much storage space for physical media -it's not convenient -i can't buy from the comfort of my couch at night when the kids are asleep ... This issue isn't caused by the industry alone, the artists as well play a role in it. Bands all over the world tweet about the release of their new albums, and about when they'll be available in itunes, but when you directly ask them about buying in flac, there's nothing but radio silence. Metallica is (partly) an exception to this: Almost any show of the last 10 years or so is available for sale as a soundboard recording, in both flac mp3, right on their tour site, a couple of days after the performance. No studio material however. I've bought a lot of those already, most recently the recording of the show i went to in belgium on may 28th and the 4 shows for their 30th birthday. I think we (the public in general, squeezebox users in particular) should all begin pestering any musician we can get access too to begin making lossless files available. The success of itunes proves that people still want to pay, but what if nobody sells what you want to buy? [quote= RussellMrgn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29655 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
As a European music lover, I mostly object to the so-called convenience of iTunes or any other service: it's almost impossible for me to get good music legally + lossless. Quite a lot of the stuff on hdtracks for instance is interesting to me, but strictly speaking I'm forbidden to buy it, as I'm not a US citizen. The offerings of Linn etc are somewhat too esoteric for my tastes, and there's only so much classical music I can take. This means that the music industry is forcing me to keep buying physical media, which I then have to rip, tag, scan for ReplayGain, scan for MusicIP ... I still do this, but a whole lot less than I'd like to, because: -I only have so much storage space for physical media -It's not convenient -I can't buy from the comfort of my couch at night when the kids are asleep ... This issue isn't caused by the industry alone, the artists as well play a role in it. Bands all over the world tweet about the release of their new albums, and about when they'll be available in iTunes, but when you directly ask them about buying in FLAC, there's nothing but radio silence. Metallica is (partly) an exception to this: almost any show of the last 10 years or so is available for sale as a soundboard recording, in both FLAC MP3, right on their tour site, a couple of days after the performance. No studio material however. I've bought a lot of those already, most recently the recording of the show I went to in Belgium on May 28th and the 4 shows for their 30th birthday. I think we (the public in general, Squeezebox users in particular) should all begin pestering any musician we can get access too to begin making lossless files available. The success of iTunes proves that people still want to pay, but what if nobody sells what you want to buy? bakker_be's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30369 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
bakker_be wrote: As a European music lover, I mostly object to the so-called convenience of iTunes or any other service: it's almost impossible for me to get good music legally + lossless. Quite a lot of the stuff on hdtracks for instance is interesting to me, but strictly speaking I'm forbidden to buy it, as I'm not a US citizen. The offerings of Linn etc are somewhat too esoteric for my tastes, and there's only so much classical music I can take. This means that the music industry is forcing me to keep buying physical media, which I then have to rip, tag, scan for ReplayGain, scan for MusicIP ... I still do this, but a whole lot less than I'd like to, because: -I only have so much storage space for physical media -It's not convenient -I can't buy from the comfort of my couch at night when the kids are asleep ... This issue isn't caused by the industry alone, the artists as well play a role in it. Bands all over the world tweet about the release of their new albums, and about when they'll be available in iTunes, but when you directly ask them about buying in FLAC, there's nothing but radio silence. Metallica is (partly) an exception to this: almost any show of the last 10 years or so is available for sale as a soundboard recording, in both FLAC MP3, right on their tour site, a couple of days after the performance. No studio material however. I've bought a lot of those already, most recently the recording of the show I went to in Belgium on May 28th and the 4 shows for their 30th birthday. I think we (the public in general, Squeezebox users in particular) should all begin pestering any musician we can get access too to begin making lossless files available. The success of iTunes proves that people still want to pay, but what if nobody sells what you want to buy? +1 Same same and add that I have to mail order everything , the town I live in does not have decent record store. Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Depends. For studio albums I couldn't care less about lossless since they are all mixed for mp3 these days anyway, so there's no difference. Live recordings, however, are a different issue. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Mnyb wrote: +1 Same same and add that I have to mail order everything , the town I live in does not have decent record store. +1 So far as I know, decent music stores do not exist here either. Even back when stock was deep, employees were shallow. bfl banned for life's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56269 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Interesting article. For me, morally as well as legally, one should obtain music in a way that at least has the potential to provide the writers and performers of the music with money unless they specifically choose to give the music away. That could be through direct payment for the music or it could be by consuming the music through a service where advertising revenue is fed back to the producers of the music or any other such arrangement as someone can devise. I also don't think that obligation goes away if we happen to know the commercial arrangement between a particular artist and their record company and think the record company is being greedy. The article makes mention of the supply of technology and services to enable music to be pirated and it is perhaps worth noting that the supply of these is subject to competition which tends to work in favour of the consumer compared to the supply being a monopoly. By contrast whoever holds the rights to a creative work has an effective monopoly. The same song has not been written by anyone else nor the same movie produced by anyone else. Here in the UK the rights to televise some football matches have been auctioned for a ridiculous sum of money which the companies concerned expect to recover from their subscribers because they know many of them would never refuse to pay and do without the content concerned, yet that is the correct response when we, as consumers, do not find the terms offers by the rights owners acceptable. Finally we come to the analogy of the neighbourhood called The Net and its lack of police force. This analogy is clearly designed to lead us to the conclusion that extra laws that restrict the rights of citizens or allow them to acted against as if guilty when guilt has not been established are as natural as putting in the missing police force. Here I must wholeheartedly disagree. Principles such as innocent until proven guilty and the freedom of people to go about their business without undue interference are more important than the problems of the rights owners and should not be eroded. Fozzy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8592 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
magiccarpetride wrote: Same as the death of telegram industry had no negative effect on people's ability to communicate long distance. Not necessarily true - most of the telegraph industries morphed into telephone companies - and are now looking at multiple communication media. There are several issues facing the music industry: - rise of piracy due to both the entitlement culture and a is-judged idea of exploitation - An inability over the last two decades to embrace new business models (unlike the telegraph industry) - caused in part by the success of CD (enabling them to sell the same content twice to consumers) and complacency - in turn allowing Apple and now Spotify to get in on the act - A rise in the power of major artists - no longer an exploitative cash cow for them Therefore it is plausible that the current crop of large players may go. However a music industry needs to exist - despite the rise of social media a media company acts as an arbiter of quality - filtering out the good from the dross for the mainstream - the kind of music I like will always be on the periphery of this, but it serves a purpose. I think the piracy debate is different when it comes to the exploitation of musicians - and that is where the original article is great... J JonWill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20259 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
JonWill wrote: despite the rise of social media a media company acts as an arbiter of quality Perhaps, but as long as social media does that job way better than the media companies themselves do it (which IMO is the case), what does it matter? Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
JonWill wrote: I think the piracy debate is different when it comes to the exploitation of musicians - and that is where the original article is great... J The public, acting as pirates, would have to illegally upload/download every song ever recorded millions of times to come anywhere close to exploiting musicians the way the music industry has exploited musicians over the past hundred plus years. Please stop trying to defend these criminals. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
JonWill wrote: a media company acts as an arbiter of quality - filtering out the good from the dross for the mainstream That's funny, I always got the impression that the music industry's primary focus was to convince the mainstream that the dross is worth buying. Since the dross always outnumbers the good, and since the industry's goal is to shift as much product as possible, it is in their interests NOT to make any distinction. cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Trust me there's a whole lot more dross out there that they don't touch - MySpace and Soundcloud are now letting people have an outlet! It's analgous to publishing. There are a lot of novels under people's beds. Publishers chose the best (or those they can make money out of...). Historically some were self-published to some level of success. IN the current world everyone can publish their books electronically. It doesn't make them good... (and the very rare case of an e-book only success does not make the model work!). JonWill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20259 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
mlsstl wrote: Pippin, guess we'll just have to agree to mostly disagree regarding the impact of piracy on the music business. You seem to want to substantially discount the impact, preferring to assign blame to various aspects of corporate greed. No. That was absolutely not my point. I have no problem with greed by companies, that's their job. If they drive it too far, it's their death. All of this is called business, it's OK and it's what we all live from. There's also no question that piracy is a problem, however, it's vastly exaggerated because piracy is mainly a problem from people who otherwise would not pay anyway and the complaint is not new. The comparison with physical theft is ridiculous as are the reactions. Ridiculous but completely understandable. The record companies are trying to cash in for as long ans as much as possible. Which, again, is their job. Also, bad weather in parts of a world is also a rampant problem, yet the only thing you can do to it is to adapt to it. We are seeing a complete disruption in service business models. Not from piracy, but from a change in the value chain. Everybody has to cope with that. Try running a travel agency, a book store or a newspaper and you know what I'm talking about. What the record companies do right now (and movie industry as well as publishers start to line up), however, is to try to lobby to write laws that secure them a better position at the cost of customers, competitors and even fundamental liberty rights and even the fundamentals of the legal system, they ask to privatize it and take away the presumption of innocence because it hurts their chances to enforce their rights. Even today you have law by which they can get you punished by merely stating that you had done something bad, without real proof and you have no chance whatsoever to get a judge involved in this. And the worst thing is that they succeed in using government resources to do this. The US foreign office (in it's role as an ambassador for US content industry) is trying to force other companies into far reaching legislation that would never ever be considered in the US, in a lot of countries (Spain being an example I know about) they were successful. They do all this by means of exaggerated claims. And the above article was a very good example of that because it stated that piracy actually KILLED musicians while in one case it was clearly now, well, the whole truth. Time will tell if the music industry figures a way to live with the new reality. Of course they will. Especially music industry as a whole as opposed to only record companies. Will it be the same players? Certainly now. Some will, some will change. That's how it is with disruptive change. But molding the status quo into concrete by means of law will make everybody lose. I fully understand that they try but we must not follow that propaganda. And they are not alone, what publishers do these days is just as bad. Besides the lex-Google they are trying to push through (which is probably the most ridiculous claim I've ever seen, asking money beyond what you can get on the free market from somebody who's service you are actively ASKING to use; but the Google is big enough to defend themselves so I'm not concerned) they are trying to kill of competition by bloggers through means of law which certainly will hit the freedom of speech. Well, it's their right to try, at least they don't try to sue their customers. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
To me, the word combination music industry is an oxymoron. It can die for all I care, I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. I am convinced that the death of music industry will have no negative effect on music whatsoever, probably the opposite. Soulkeeper's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35297 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Soulkeeper wrote: To me, the word combination music industry is an oxymoron. It can die for all I care, I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. I am convinced that the death of music industry will have no negative effect on music whatsoever, probably the opposite. Same as the death of telegram industry had no negative effect on people's ability to communicate long distance. magiccarpetride's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37863 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
The modern media industries, which includes music, movies, video, books, magazines, etc., are all trying, rather unsuccessfully, to live with the fact current digital media has pretty much sacrificed content protection for user convenience. For me the 5,000 pound elephant in the room whenever the subject of piracy is discussed is why is it so damn easy to copy copyrighted digital content? Because making that digital secure would mean a very unpleasant user experience. Imagine having to enter a 10 digit code into a CD or DVD or blu-ray player every time you wanted to play a disc? Not very convenient. So years ago these industries WILLFULLY chose user friendliness over security and now they are paying a very high price. Too bad for them. Add to this the fact these industries are in no way trying to solve the problem. For example, the Netflix movie and video streaming model has been an overwhelming success and yet not a week goes by without reading how yet another movie studio is pulling their films from Netflix streaming. The problem is not piracy per say but rather loss of income. The Netflix streaming model solves the piracy issue since people who can stream a movie will most likely not bother to download an illegal copy of that movie but the industry does not like the vastly reduced revenues which result from streaming. Basically they have yet to accept streaming revenue versus no revenue, aka piracy. Again too bad for them. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
It's not piracy vs. convenience, it's also go f... yourself, there's other things I can do vs. convenience. I don't pirate stuff, but if I can't get it easily and convenient, I've got enough other things to do. And the same thing is true of others. There are more media available yet the day still only has 24h, someone has to suffer from that. The one who offers least convenience will suffer most. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
pippin wrote: It's not piracy vs. convenience, it's also go f... yourself, there's other things I can do vs. convenience. I don't pirate stuff, but if I can't get it easily and convenient, I've got enough other things to do. And the same thing is true of others. There are more media available yet the day still only has 24h, someone has to suffer from that. The one who offers least convenience will suffer most. Quite true, however I was referring more to how the present situation arose. You make a good point about the present state of all things digital. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
I beg to differ. It's not a good article. It's actually a very bad article. I agree with the general direction making clear that a free culture is bad for musicians and that they have to make money and that it's not OK to just pirate music but the article is full of stereotypes, false claims and bad/wrong examples. It's not true that I can get any music I want with a few clicks (legally, that is). It's true for Lady Gaga, but she has no income problem, too. But of the music I listen to and buy today (even the new one!) less than 50% is even available on iTunes. Spotify et al are a little better but they are also villains by David Lowery's measures. I'm too lazy and have too little time to hunt down stuff on file sharing or download sites so there's a lot of stuff I will only ever get through streaming services or mixes, but I WOULD buy that stuff if it was just available. The article also completely confuses author's rights with recording rights and is plain wrong in some of the legal claims it makes. The accepted norm for hudreds of years of western civilization is the artist exclusively has the right to exploit and control his/her work for a period of time. Somebody might want to discuss this with the likes of Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger and George Michael who are among those who essentially made this true - for high profile artists and not hundred of years ago but only during the last few decades and by sheer market power. But the thing that infuriates me is the example about Mark Linkous (Sparklehorse). David writes that his suicide was partly caused by a harsh financial situation caused by a lack of income from his music and directly attributes this to piracy while hinting record companies are the good guys helping musicians and guaranteeing them income. (There is no other explanation except for the fact that fans made the unethical choice to take their music without compensating these artists.) In this particular case things could not be more wrong. Sparklehorse happens to be one of the minds behind one of my favorite albums of the recent years (Dark Night of the Soul, together with Brian Burton (Dangermouse) and David Lynch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul_%28album%29 . The other example given, Vic Chesnutt, was also involved in a track of that album, btw.). It's probably his commercially most successful album but only became such after his death. And the reason for this has nothing to do with piracy, it was due to a rights dispute with EMI which delayed the release for more than a year, when it finally came out. Had that not been the case I doubt he would have been in the dire financial situation David describes. And it was the artists themselves who distributed the album freely (on their own web site) while the dispute was not settled. That was where I originally downloaded it from, for free, like probably many others, too. You can argue whether this was piracy or not but you just can't claim that this had to do with free culture, piracy or anything. Of course I don't know details about the contracts involved and I would not claim that there weren't legitimate reasons for EMI's position, and also David Lowery sure knows much more than I do about what was going on with this and maybe it was between the artists, I don't know. But to put this forward as an example of why only record companies are the good guys guaranteeing the artists a nice income and taking away any risk from them while everybody else around, Spotify, Apple and especially the customers are evil and drive them into suicide is just so ridiculous it makes me mad. No, this is NOT a good article. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
pippin wrote: I beg to differ. It's not a good article. It's actually a very bad article. I agree with the general direction making clear that a free culture is bad for musicians and that they have to make money and that it's not OK to just pirate music but the article is full of stereotypes, false claims and bad/wrong examples. It's not true that I can get any music I want with a few clicks (legally, that is). It's true for Lady Gaga, but she has no income problem, too. But of the music I listen to and buy today (even the new one!) less than 50% is even available on iTunes. Spotify et al are a little better but they are also villains by David Lowery's measures. I'm too lazy and have too little time to hunt down stuff on file sharing or download sites so there's a lot of stuff I will only ever get through streaming services or mixes, but I WOULD buy that stuff if it was just available ...Of course I don't know details about the contracts involved and I would not claim that there weren't legitimate reasons for EMI's position, and also David Lowery sure knows much more than I do about what was going on with this and maybe it was between the artists, I don't know I'm rather confused. You slam the specific Sparklehorse example and then admit the article's author probably knows much more than you about the details. I don't understand the logic of claiming this is a bad example while at the same time admitting the author almost certainly knows the facts of the situation far more clearly. I know that I don't know - I don't listen to that particular style of music - but your complaint comes off looking odd. I do know that business situations can get complicated and messy, with the underlying cause of a problem manifesting itself to the public in ways that don't clearly reveal the roots. The music business has always used the massive sales of their most popular artists to support the whole, whether based on Madonna, Gaga or Bing Crosby. They were willing to gamble on new artists and put up with most of their artists having mediocre or poor sales because the money worked out. They never knew where the next one-hit wonder or enduring superstar would arise. Unfortunately, that system doesn't work too well when most of your customers think they are entitled to free stuff, whether for the big names or the not-so-big. One can nitpick about the root causes involved in the specific examples, but I think, overall, the article's author makes a valid point and illustrates it well. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
mlsstl wrote: I'm rather confused. You slam the specific Sparklehorse example and then admit the article's author probably knows much more than you about the details. I don't understand the logic of claiming this is a bad example while at the same time admitting the author almost certainly knows the facts of the situation far more clearly. My comment re the author knowing much more was about WHAT SPECIFIC issue with the record company EMI (and maybe between the artists) led to the delay. However what I DO KNOW (and what is undisputed, btw) is that it was an issue with EMI causing the delay and loss of income. And that it NOTHING to do with piracy. And all of that while the author claims that piracy kills artists while record companies are their saviors (sorry, this is NOT me exaggerating, that's what he says with his examples). Sorry, this hurts. The music business has always used the massive sales of their most popular artists to support the whole This is not true. The music industry has used the massive sales of their most popular artists to develop a marketing and distribution chain that allowed them to promote other artists from whom they made more profits. What music industry also did was develop new artists, yes. But they did not do this by subsidizing them with revenue from more popular artists - they can't because the really successful artists have way too much negotiating power, they don't earn the record companies a lot of money. What brings profit for record companies is long-term contracts with newly developed artists who profit from the marketing push and give away a greater revenue share in return. This model is indeed falling apart. But the reason isn't piracy (piracy hits pretty much all artists in the same way), the reason is that the marketing channels (the ways through which especially young people learn about music and exchange about them) have completely changed. There is no MTV anymore (ok, MTV is still around but they don't play any music anymore but do dismissed instead. Why? Because record labels now want money for the clips instead of paying them for addition to the rotation) and twitter, facebook and YouTube have taken their place. Record companies have not been able to keep up with this development. Partly, because they are slow corporate dinosaurs and because they were so focused on piracy but also because in that environment there is no real need for them. Today, you don't need a contract with record shops, and the like, you don't need the heavy upfront investments so band's managers have been able to do the marketing side themselves. It's the same dissolution of value chain thing the internet has triggered in all service businesses. And regarding that most musicians can hardly live from their music: that's always been the case. The reason is simply that most artists don't make straight business decisions into becoming a musician but because it's their calling, they dream of the fame and the chicks or simply because the music itself matters to them. In such an environment you'll always have too tough a competition for most to live. The same thing has been true 10, 20 or 100 years ago. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Pippin, guess we'll just have to agree to mostly disagree regarding the impact of piracy on the music business. You seem to want to substantially discount the impact, preferring to assign blame to various aspects of corporate greed. However, big corporations have always been greedy, and the music companies are no exception. Your example regarding MTV is hardly new. Up to 1941, ASCAP was virtually the sole US copyright entity. Their contract with the radio stations was expiring and on renewal, they attempted to double dip on the fees charged for radio stations to broadcast music. The stations refused. ASCAP simply assumed they had all the cards in their hand and the stations would cave in short order. They didn't, but instead formed BMI and started broadcasting public domain material (they say Stephen Foster had a big revival). The radio stations also started recording their own music, using musicians and composers not under the ASCAP contract. This consisted heavily of country/hillbilly and black music, which became very popular with the public. The styles eventually merged to become rock 'n roll. It sure disrupted the status quo, but the big music companies eventually co-opted the upstart and absorbed them into the corporate structure. Time will tell if the music industry figures a way to live with the new reality. While some of their problems were indeed self-created (the MTV situation sounds like a near repeat of 1941), a lot of people would disagree with you that piracy is not a problem. A widespread sense of entitlement is an issue and has its costs, whether they are fully understood in advance or not. I'll now bow out of this discussion, as I've pretty much said what I have to say. Hope you find something good to listen to this evening. I'm enjoying the Schubert Ensemble's version of Franck's Piano Quintet in F minor. Good stuff. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Yes piracy is a rampant problem . And so is the music bussiness refusal to actually adapt , why can't I simply buy lossles files of any artist 2012 and why could I not a decade ago and how come that it was apple that actualy took any kind of file sale to the masses ? and why did it took so long to get rid of drm . The historical non existence of actual legal options are bit skimped over in the article , it is not complete but represent one piont of view Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Excellent article. I don't know if society is already so far into the entitlement mentality that things are beyond repair, but it is nice to see someone point out that these people are already spending a lot of money in support of their music habit. It's just going to the already big corporate entities for their smartphones, network connections, hardware and such, not the artists. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Open Letter to Music Pirates from NPR
Or google et al and all the fake dl sites makes money too. just try to find the legal alternative in some cases . There many legal sites for downloading FLAC or similar these days ( octavist pushed a bundle in another post ) . Search [ any artist ] flac and see ;) the first 20 pages of google is hits from spam/add powered download sites , then just maybe their bandcamp zunior or boomcat link turns up , 20 pages later maybe the artist own page . So it's clear that someone else is making the money. So I search first for the artist own site to locate eventual legal options but in many cases they don't link all thier buying options anyway ? Only an iTunes or amazon link , then later you find it on zunior or similar ? But anyway an interesting link good article and all comments where worth reading too amazing ! normally you should never read comments on articles on the net it usually brings out the future unabombers or similar ilk . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95541 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
