Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
mlsstl wrote: > I'll have to mildly disagree. If the problem had never made it past > American Idol, I wouldn't know of its existence. . +1 As you i never listen to that kind of stuff , but loudness war permeates most music ,I think even some of the later tom waits stuff has some problems ?? Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
I'd agree with that BUT I have the option of enabling DRC in the equaliser in CM10 using Apollo as my music player so having it in the file is the last thing I want when using my headphones. :'( Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk 2 jimbobvfr400's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56857 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
After watching a few commercials being run by some of the US's big electronics stores I realized that not only is the type of music (mass market pop music) one of the reasons for so much poor sound quality but there are other important reasons for this sad state of affairs. Namely cheap (as in low cost and poorly made) electronics and bad sounding digital files. What I'm speaking of are these super cheap portable speakers, headphones and earphones used for playback and the low bit rate audio streams so common on mobile devices. Do you really think that music with anything close to a wide dynamic range would sound good on these playback systems? Probably the only way to fool people into thinking that this method of playback, i.e. a low bit rate stream played on mobile device through cheap portable speakers or headphones, sound "good" is by using music with highly compressed range. I really doubt that a $20 bluetooth speaker is capable of reproducing any dynamic range so what is the point of even trying. Just a thought. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
guidof wrote: > Excessively close miking has been a problem in some classical and jazz > recordings, but if I understand this correctly, it's a different issue > from that of the loudness wars. I consider miking too closely a member of the same family of afflictions, though you're right that overly-close mike placement has been with us a long time. Compression and limiting have also been around a long time, though one was more limited in the past as to how far one could push the technique. With modern digital processing, where any and every technique is just a mouse-click away, it is inevitable that it has been overused. If you give toys to boys, they will play with them. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > I for one am disgusted by the loudness of recent sountracks which to me > is the 'modern classical'. > > Case in point - The Dark Knight Rises. The audacity of the HDTracks > version being no better is heartbreaking ;-( Getting back on topic: I'm sure that the DSD version sounds much, much better, after all dynamic range compression sounds much better in high resolution. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
I for one am disgusted by the loudness of recent sountracks which to me is the 'modern classical'. Case in point - The Dark Knight Rises. The audacity of the HDTracks version being no better is heartbreaking ;-( Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
mlsstl wrote: > I'll have to mildly disagree. If the problem had never made it past > American Idol, I wouldn't know of its existence. I've even found some > classical records that suffer from the problem -- for example, I think > the Emerson Quartet's Mendelssohn recordings and Olga Kern's Brahms > Variations are too closely miked. The liner notes for the Emerson > Quartet recordings point out that 14 mikes were used to record a string > quartet! > > Plenty of modern jazz, folk and other recordings suffer from this issue, > though perhaps not as glaringly as the material marketed to teenagers. > I've worked a lot with Adobe Audition over the years and there is a good > match between what one sees visually on a track and what one hears. More > than once I've seen a modern drum track where there is absolute > uniformity in the peak volume of drum strikes. In older recordings that > type of track would have a natural variation in loudness that sounded > less in-your-face and, well, more natural. > > Just like any other fad, popular trends end up affecting everything. The > audio world is not immune from that behavior. It's just ironic that the > more headroom our music formats give, the less that is used. Excessively close miking has been a problem in some classical and jazz recordings, but if I understand this correctly, it's a different issue from that of the loudness wars. Just downloaded Mozart's clarinet and horn quintets with the old city quartet +, which is a bad example of wonderfully clear but horribly closed miking, in the most glaring 24/96 fashion. This is not new in chamber music, as shown by most recordings emanating from the old Philips studio of La Chaux de Fonds, the greatest performances marred by the poorest of microphone choices. The old Quartetto Italiano recordings come to mind. In general, though, jazz and classical recordings are mostly immune from the excesses of compression that are so prevalent in pop music. Guido F. guidof's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40448 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
ralphpnj wrote: > I keep stating this over and over: the loudness war only exists on > popular music releases I'll have to mildly disagree. If the problem had never made it past American Idol, I wouldn't know of its existence. I've even found some classical records that suffer from the problem -- for example, I think the Emerson Quartet's Mendelssohn recordings and Olga Kern's Brahms Variations are too closely miked. The liner notes for the Emerson Quartet recordings point out that 14 mikes were used to record a string quartet! Plenty of modern jazz, folk and other recordings suffer from this issue, though perhaps not as glaringly as the material marketed to teenagers. I've worked a lot with Adobe Audition over the years and there is a good match between what one sees visually on a track and what one hears. More than once I've seen a modern drum track where there is absolute uniformity in the peak volume of drum strikes. In older recordings that type of track would have a natural variation in loudness that sounded less in-your-face and, well, more natural. Just like any other fad, popular trends end up affecting everything. The audio world is not immune from that behavior. It's just ironic that the more headroom our music formats give, the less that is used. mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
I keep stating this over and over: the loudness war only exists on popular music releases, be they pop, rock, rap, R&B, etc. and be they new recordings or remastered recordings. Most other music is not involved in this nonsense. For me the good thing about this that I don't care how bad the highly compressed new release by some talentless winner of the latest and greatest television singing reality show sounds because I have no intention of ever listening to this garbage much less spending money on it. Does it matter how bad a Kelly Clarkson (or any of the many horrors these shows have forced on the public) recording sounds? No because no amount of care could ever make anything by her or her ilk listenable to me. There is a reason for my avatar. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > Yup, I agree - perhaps it'll have to be trying to single out bad albums > or series of albums (look at that 2009 UMG Rolling Stones remaster > series for example - who was responsible for that mess!?). > > However, I still insist Vlado Meller SUCKS. More on Mr. M: > "The absolute peak of loudness started slowly creeping up in 1995, when > Vlado Meller mastered Oasis' (What's the Story) Morning Glory? to -8 dB > RMS. Since then the tendency has been to make records louder. The > resulting loudness war is due to a variety of factors, such as > commercial concerns, stupid executives, following the leader or > listeners / musicians who are unaware of this phenomenon, can't tell the > difference and don't care, and some actually LIKE how it sounds, while > others take advantage of it for artistic purposes. " > > from: > http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoudnessWar?from=Main.RecordOfLoudnessWar Ok he's clearly on the dark side of the force :D . Off, off topic listening to the independent stuff on bandcamp ,surprised that it sounds so good in any genre ? So nowadays relatively speaking you accomplish awesome soundqality by just not destroying your work !? What could we have when someone actually cares about it Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Mnyb wrote: > And it could be problematic anyway the artist could be missguided and > convinced by the record company's exec that" it is supposed to sound > like that nowadays " Metallica , Rush . > > And the master engineer is usually a hired hand that does what he is > toold to do . > Yup, I agree - perhaps it'll have to be trying to single out bad albums or series of albums (look at that 2009 UMG Rolling Stones remaster series for example - who was responsible for that mess!?). However, I still insist Vlado Meller SUCKS. More on Mr. M: "The absolute peak of loudness started slowly creeping up in 1995, when Vlado Meller mastered Oasis' (What's the Story) Morning Glory? to -8 dB RMS. Since then the tendency has been to make records louder. The resulting loudness war is due to a variety of factors, such as commercial concerns, stupid executives, following the leader or listeners / musicians who are unaware of this phenomenon, can't tell the difference and don't care, and some actually LIKE how it sounds, while others take advantage of it for artistic purposes. " from: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoudnessWar?from=Main.RecordOfLoudnessWar Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > I had to use the online dictionary - I guess quisling means 'traitor', > right? > > Maybe we should put together a 'wall of shame' of mastering engineers > and post it up somewhere :-) Anyone else you guys would nominate... > someone whose body of work has resulted in sonic disasters like > clipping, severe dynamic range compression turned up to 15/10? > > Personally the worst mastering I have seen is The Stooges' "Raw Power" > with DR0 (yup, dynamic range of ZERO dB)... But that was done with Iggy > Pop's guidance so I guess the artist wanted that :-( And it could be problematic anyway the artist could be missguided and convinced by the record company's exec that" it is supposed to sound like that nowadays " Metallica , Rush . And the master engineer is usually a hired hand that does what he is toold to do . But as you say it could have gone to the other extreme someone finding a livelihood being really good at this sham work :/ and hence gets all,the work from the record companies and ,yes undermining the whole art form . But it could be hard to draw the line and they are actually people . We may be better by continue the usual practice of single out the bad masters and write about that Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > I had to use the online dictionary - I guess quisling means 'traitor', > right? > > Maybe we should put together a 'wall of shame' of mastering engineers > and post it up somewhere :-) Anyone else you guys would nominate... > someone whose body of work has resulted in sonic disasters like > clipping, severe dynamic range compression turned up to 15/10? > > Personally the worst mastering I have seen is The Stooges' "Raw Power" > with DR0 (yup, dynamic range of ZERO dB)... But that was done with Iggy > Pop's guidance so I guess the artist wanted that :-( With iggys early music the effects is intended :) I you want to do this one must single out cases where the practice is detrimental to the form of music the mastering is supposed to serve . Remastering is the easy target , there you already have the original artist and producers intentions in the original . Quisling is an old word ,actually invented by British ww2 propaganda , you are not only a single instance traitor but actively collaborates with the fascists invading forces to your own people's demise , wikipedia has some articles . I thought that word was still in use ? It have stayed in some languages . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Mnyb wrote: > Urgh what a quisling :/ I had to use the online dictionary - I guess quisling means 'traitor', right? Maybe we should put together a 'wall of shame' of mastering engineers and post it up somewhere :-) Anyone else you guys would nominate... someone whose body of work has resulted in sonic disasters like clipping, severe dynamic range compression turned up to 15/10? Personally the worst mastering I have seen is The Stooges' "Raw Power" with DR0 (yup, dynamic range of ZERO dB)... But that was done with Iggy Pop's guidance so I guess the artist wanted that :-( Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > Absolutely correct: > 1. Pressings before 1994 almost always trumps the latest remasters. > > 2. This is why I take every opportunity I get to voice my disgust at > someone like Vlado Meller and his ilk who have destroyed sound quality. > > http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/stories/090211mastering#ZF_o_BaJNlfRhF6xB0fQiQ Urgh what a quisling :/ Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
jh901 wrote: > PCM (redbook), hi-res PCM, SACD/DSDwhatever!! When will any of us > turn our attention to the mastering engineer? I'll bet dollars to > doughnuts that I have dozens of good old redbook CDs pressed (and > mastered) before 1988 which smoke that latest and greatest. Absolutely correct: 1. Pressings before 1994 almost always trumps the latest remasters. 2. This is why I take every opportunity I get to voice my disgust at someone like Vlado Meller and his ilk who have destroyed sound quality. http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/stories/090211mastering#ZF_o_BaJNlfRhF6xB0fQiQ Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
jh901 wrote: > PCM (redbook), hi-res PCM, SACD/DSDwhatever!! When will any of us > turn our attention to the mastering engineer? I'll bet dollars to > doughnuts that I have dozens of good old redbook CDs pressed (and > mastered) before 1988 which smoke that latest and greatest. > Additionally, I guarantee I have a good number of DCC and Audio Fidelity > redbook that will smoke the hi-rez, whether PCM or DSD, etc. > . Actually spot on the delivery formats is almost unimportant compared to other factors involved in the recording and producing I'll take one of those good recordings/masterings on cassette tape any day :) Or maybe someones vinyl rip of the net ? looks like a completely bizarre thing to do until you are confronted with the facts that some things never gets re-released and are thus otherwise unavailable or the remaster for digital is very shoddy or simply the original tapes are lost or damaged to a degree where can only do so much . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
jh901 wrote: > PCM (redbook), hi-res PCM, SACD/DSDwhatever!! When will any of us > turn our attention to the mastering engineer? I'll bet dollars to > doughnuts that I have dozens of good old redbook CDs pressed (and > mastered) before 1988 which smoke that latest and greatest. > Additionally, I guarantee I have a good number of DCC and Audio Fidelity > redbook that will smoke the hi-rez, whether PCM or DSD, etc. > > And yeah, I also agree that room treatment is ignored. So is speaker > and sweet spot positioning, which is even less expensive (free). One > can spend $50 grand and get those things wrong and never hear even $10 > grand worth of sound quality. True on all counts. For example I have a good friend who has a very expensive and very nice high end system (Krell, Niam, Dunlevy, etc.) but I feel that he has his listening position much too close to the speakers. So much so that it's like listening to near-field monitors rather than huge room filling speakers. When I'm at his home for a listening session I sit much further back and his system sounds much better. But hey, it's his system bought with his money and he's happy so what can I say. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
PCM (redbook), hi-res PCM, SACD/DSDwhatever!! When will any of us turn our attention to the mastering engineer? I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that I have dozens of good old redbook CDs pressed (and mastered) before 1988 which smoke that latest and greatest. Additionally, I guarantee I have a good number of DCC and Audio Fidelity redbook that will smoke the hi-rez, whether PCM or DSD, etc. And yeah, I also agree that room treatment is ignored. So is speaker and sweet spot positioning, which is even less expensive (free). One can spend $50 grand and get those things wrong and never hear even $10 grand worth of sound quality. jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > I responded to that article beginning with the "Yeah.. Rrrright..." > comment suggesting an ABX with upsampled 16/44 --> DSD128 (very easy > with Weiss Saracon for example) vs. native DSD128. He didn't seem to > want to go there. Oh well... > > It's also possible that the Mytek just sounds better for DSD input > rather than PCM (unlikely). Again, we'll never know from articles like > this because the "clowns" refuse to engage in exploration of the > possible explanations. > > hey, you wouldn't happen to be 'zjaj', would ya :-)? > > Personally, I think the DSD train has sailed a long time ago and there's > no way it's going to achieve mass acceptance. Having ripped and recoded > many SACD's, I really find no real audible difference (hey, if folks > have difficulty differentiating decent bitrate MP3 vs. 16/44, good luck > between DSD64 and 24/88!) and the fact that so many are just obvious > upsampled 44kHz PCM really is not doing the format any favours. Even a > classic like Dave Brubeck's "Time Out" which should have been a show > piece of analogue to high-def DSD from ~2000 with the introduction of > SACD turns out to be just a PCM conversion among many others I've made a > note of. > > I don't believe we've even seen one successful ABX comparing upsampled > 16/44 to DSD64 vs. the native DSD64 of the same mastering & same > volume. > > IMO, DSD64 is inadequate compared to hi-res PCM, and there's just no way > at this point DSD128 is going to make any significant inroads in the > commercial space. Furthermore, almost any multitrack recording that > needs good editing tools would NOT benefit from DSD. This leaves purist > recordings direct to DSD (eg. Diament's Soundkeeper, Blue Coast, maybe > some 2L) and analogue to DSD conversions as the only sources which would > not need PCM at some point. Let them talk up DSD as much as they want, > it's unlikely to matter in the end. +1 your DAW suite is going to have it all as floating point 32bit or 64bit And i don't get the arguments for recording every track as DSD all "problems" in recording PCM is done away by higher bitrate PCM ADC at 24/96 for example . And DSD is not a very efficient way of encoding information as explained lot if has to be filterad away by advanced noise shaping at playback ? I also wonder if multitrack DSD mixing is even possible then we have ultrasonic gunk from multiple sources ? best practice would be to filter and convert to pcm then to floating point numbers ? Here I don't actually know the deatails ? But my question is what problem was DSD originally set out to solve and is it really a problem (with modern PCM) ? I very much doubt that . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
What is ludicrous is that 16/44 (much less PCM in general) is far from the main problem these days. The problem is modern recording practises like close mic, multi-mic, dynamic compression etc. Recording music in a more live, natural way requires so much more time and money. Modern processing is there because it saves time and money and it gives results the mainstream is satisfied with. Darren Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 2 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
ralphpnj wrote: > I assume that everyone who has posted in this thread has read or at > least scanned the Audiostream piece linked to in the first post. What I > found most upsetting about the piece is that Mr. Lavorgna, who appears > to be one of the few "good guys" writing for Stereophile, does not > compare high resolution PCM (24bit/96 & 192kHz) to DSD. Sure he compares > CD resolution (16bit/44.1kHz) to both hi-rez PCM and DSD but that's it. I responded to that article beginning with the "Yeah.. Rrrright..." comment suggesting an ABX with upsampled 16/44 --> DSD128 (very easy with Weiss Saracon for example) vs. native DSD128. He didn't seem to want to go there. Oh well... It's also possible that the Mytek just sounds better for DSD input rather than PCM (unlikely). Again, we'll never know from articles like this because the "clowns" refuse to engage in exploration of the possible explanations. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
I assume that everyone who has posted in this thread has read or at least scanned the Audiostream piece linked to in the first post. What I found most upsetting about the piece is that Mr. Lavorgna, who appears to be one of the few "good guys" writing for Stereophile, does not compare high resolution PCM (24bit/96 & 192kHz) to DSD. Sure he compares CD resolution (16bit/44.1kHz) to both hi-rez PCM and DSD but that's it. Now it's time to sit back and watch as even the best PCM based DACs slowly get demonized in the high end press as everyone (meaning the editors and writers) jumps on the DSD bandwagon, just as they jumped on the asynchronous USB over S/PDIF bandwagon. And since there is at present no way to stream DSD, music streaming will also come under attack as being less than true high end. I guess I really shouldn't be all that surprised when clowns behave like clowns. ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
There actually IS a technical reason why DSD may sound better than PCM, even though it is technically inferior to hi-res PCM: lack of digital filters. I have done extensive study on this and have come to the conclusion that ALL DAC chips which have internal digital filters have not correctly implemented those filters. Making the filter mathematically correct talkes a fair amount of compute horsepower, particularly for 44.1. None of the chip makers want to include that cost in their chips, so they take shortcuts in the implementations. They are all compromised to some degree. I have tested this with several chips that have the ability to turn off their internal filter and use an external filter. I implemented my own filter in an FPGA, doing it right with proper bit dpeths and no compromises. The results sound quite a bit better than the internal filters. I have had several people do blind tests on this and they all can hear the difference. In regards to DSD, a simple implementation doesn't use a digital filter, just a simple analog filter. All the complex filtering has been done in software in the DSD mastering where the filters can be a much closer match to being mathematically correct. Of course all this is highly implementation dependant. So DSD may actually sound better in some circumstances, but IMO the correct thing to do is implement PCM DACs correctly rather than trying to productize DSD at the consumer level. John S. JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
Archimago wrote: > I like this article comparing PCM vs. DSD. > http://www.craigmandigital.com/education/PCM_vs_DSD.aspx > > I think it makes the point very clear in pictures. Certainly fits with > the description of the nature of how DSD sounds. Yup DSD aprox 20bits resolution in low frequncies and a bit worse than CD at 20kHZ ,must be rolled of in th ultrasonic range , it is not only tweeter frying it is amplifier stability tube amps can as an added problem have transfor resonances in this range . And this begs the question why HD tracks rips SACD to 192kHz sample rate ? 88.2 or lower must be a much better choice as it kills of a lot more ultrasonics . cliveb wrote: > I know nothing about how it works, but wouldn't it be deliciously ironic > if it turns out that the Mytek internally converts DSD to PCM :-) > > As far as I can tell, the Mytek uses the Sabre 32 bit DAC chip. Anyone > know if this is a PCM device? I dont think it's that simple many DACs are Delta sigma who is some kind of hybrid technology between one bit and pure multibit converters , the question is which intermediate format it can be feed and what it is using internally . But it is probably not a propblem , the conversion process does not introduce any significant problems as it is done to a format with more resolution , it just removes your possibility to claim PCM free playback ;) (which in itself is does not make sense as it is not a problem ) Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
I know nothing about how it works, but wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if it turns out that the Mytek internally converts DSD to PCM :-) As far as I can tell, the Mytek uses the Sabre 32 bit DAC chip. Anyone know if this is a PCM device? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
I like this article comparing PCM vs. DSD. http://www.craigmandigital.com/education/PCM_vs_DSD.aspx I think it makes the point very clear in pictures. Certainly fits with the description of the nature of how DSD sounds. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
.. Or designing and building fully treated listening rooms the magazines are full of that as this is the most neglected part of the whole set-up and logically audiophiles are addressing that . and it cost less to do than buying more high end hifi . I'm kidding they are not :D But actually this is not a new one it's been going on since it's release , even Sony themselves has contributed to the FUD that DSD is somehow magically better than PCM (regardless of bit rate or sample rate ) . There have always been claims of this superiority . Have you missed this one :confused: you kicked in an open door . It's not one of the worst misconceptions around Sound quality is not actually suffering it's more or less the same in practice . What SACD succeded at was being practically impossible to rip (the DSD layer ) it has some properties that makes the drives needing special decoding chips and Sony would never license the stuff to a computer drive. It may be false but was not Sony/phillips CD patent running out and the need for something else to license arise hence time to develop CD' successor and why not fleece the studios while at it to have them buy special DSD mixing and mastering equipment so this fud is not only aimed at audiophiles. In practice many SACD players are converting DSD to PCM internally to be able to use all the good filters and DAC's already developed and in many cases this conversion is also done by most studios while mixing and producing so in case of popular music the don't have a special PCM free mixing console on the side and works in parallel with the normal release ;) The formats suffered a fate similar to DVDA a large proportion of the discs are of upsampled 16/44.1 or analog content , actually as SACD was the more popular format it suffered from more fake releases . DVDA was the "better" format . What I like of both DVDA and SACD is the discrete multichannel format that is a huge improvement ,if the recording is done right and no its not a gimmick but that did not take either due to lack of content , but it is on a rebound as blueray discs with discrete multichannel and picture is sold nowadays. The dolby True HD format is the surviving part of DVDA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Next Frontier
ralphpnj wrote: > So tell me, does it ever end? And more importantly what does this mean > for our wallets? No! To the former, no, why would they stop, when there's a bunch of easy hit OCDs out there with folding stuff to fill wallets with? To the latter, which part of folding stuff to fill wallets with are you having difficulty comprehending? Stratmangler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20387 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97545 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
