Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-04 Thread Peiter

Mnyb wrote: 
 Less spl overall or only in the bass ? if the spl goes down it gets
 apparent in the deep bass first as you stop hearing that .
 
 Do you use replay-gain at all in your squeezebox ? (it in the player
 settings in the web-UI) .
 
 Do you run one of the later version of the server .
 
 Check this setting in your player *Default adjustment for remote
 streams* it is *-5* per default . Because normally streaming services
 are all very loud .
 Set this to 0 .
 
 Or it could be could be another master ? that are a bit quieter .

It is easy to hear the difference in bass (my example), not as easy to
tell in the mids/Highs ... maybe less here also.
No replay-gain.
I'm running a 3 days old version (7.8) of LMS.
Default adjustment for remote streams is -5. I'll set it to 0 (maybe
this is it).
I'll be back :-)

/Peter



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-04 Thread Peiter

paulster wrote: 
 I may be wrong but I believe there may be more than one master for this.
 Something in he back of my mind makes me think there was a remaster.
 
 I've just taken a quick look at dr.loudness-war.info and that also seems
 to imply two different masters by the different dynamic range figures
 for two releases of this album.

Nice of you. As I recall, both versions I was testing was the 1999
version. (The 2000 version seems the better according to
dr.loudness-war.info).

/Peter



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-04 Thread Mnyb

Peiter wrote: 
 It is easy to hear the difference in bass (my example), not as easy to
 tell in the mids/Highs ... maybe less here also.
 No replay-gain.
 I'm running a 3 days old version (7.8) of LMS.
 Default adjustment for remote streams is -5. I'll set it to 0 (maybe
 this is it).
 I'll be back :-)
 
 /Peter

Good :-) it's so very easy to compare with the wrong volume :/

I think this is behind much of WAV vs FLAC debacle the unsuspecting
audiophile has a player that can utilise replay gain tags and the FLAC
file has them but the WAv file don't .

The whole smartgain thing in the player settings can also be turned on
or off try that to.

I would be interesting if WIMP have used RG tags ,that would be a good
thing as you can have these things as you like depending on settings
rather than manipulating the audio data .




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-04 Thread Peiter

Hi Again

Default adjustment for remote streams set to 0.

This might do it  I cannot with certainty say there is a difference
in SPL as I could before.

It would be nice if others could confirm by doing the little track test
as I did.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-04 Thread callesoroe

bhaagensen wrote: 
 I'm pretty sure some of the WiMP flacs are different from my/the
 CD-version. As to how this could be, I think you gave a fairly good
 summary. Would be nice to have the opinions of others who could for
 example have another pressing of The Man in Black, if such exists. So
 I think you kind of gave the answer to you own question.

Ooooh you mean The man in Black  Couldn't find the album The Man
Comes Around as you wrote earlier... But I don't have the CD so I
can't compare. But WIMP has 3 versions of it too ..



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-03 Thread Peiter

Patricia Barber - Companion (from 1999). I will test if there is any
diff. between local FLAC versus WiMP FLAC.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-03 Thread Peiter

Peiter wrote: 
 Patricia Barber - Companion (from 1999). I will test if there is any
 diff. between local FLAC versus WiMP FLAC.

The track Let It Rain. After 2:37 minutes and the next 5 seconds, it's
easy to hear a difference in SPL in the bass. (To hear that, your gear
must be able to deliver enough SPL from ~ 30 Hz). WiMP delivers *less*
SPL compared to my own FLAC version of that track.

So what does that tell us?

Appart from that I really like what I hear when streaming FLAC from WiMP
:D



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-03 Thread Mnyb

Peiter wrote: 
 The track Let It Rain. After 2:37 minutes and the next 5 seconds, it's
 easy to hear a difference in SPL in the bass. (To hear that, your gear
 must be able to deliver enough SPL from ~ 30 Hz). WiMP delivers *less*
 SPL compared to my own FLAC version of that track.
 
 So what does that tell us?
 
 Appart from that I really like what I hear when streaming FLAC from WiMP
 :D

Less spl overall or only in the bass ? if the spl goes down it gets
apparent in the deep bass first as you stop hearing that .

Do you use replay-gain at all in your squeezebox ? (it in the player
settings in the web-UI) .

Do you run one of the later version of the server .

Check this setting in your player *Default adjustment for remote
streams* it is *-5* per default . Because normally streaming services
are all very loud .
Set this to 0 .

Or it could be could be another master ? that are a bit quieter .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-03 Thread paulster

Peiter wrote: 
 Patricia Barber - Companion (from 1999). I will test if there is any
 diff. between local FLAC versus WiMP FLAC.

I may be wrong but I believe there may be more than one master for this.
Something in he back of my mind makes me think there was a remaster.

I've just taken a quick look at dr.loudness-war.info and that also seems
to imply two different masters by the different dynamic range figures
for two releases of this album.



Two track 1's and no track 2 after a scan for new and changed? Please
vote for serious scanning bug '17782'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17782)
Receiver stuck at blue LED state after reboot? Please vote for bug
'17462' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17462)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread bhaagensen

bhaagensen wrote: 
 
 In case you're interested: Do you have Cash's, The Man Comes Around?
 Mind giving the title track a spin and compare it to one on WiMP. Won't
 give you my take, but its interesting ;)

No takers? Anyone else tried the comparison with anything else? Should
be interesting for many of us, eh?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread garym

bhaagensen wrote: 
 No takers? Anyone else tried the comparison with anything else? Should
 be interesting for many of us, eh?

I'm not in a country that can access wimp. But if they are truly
streaming FLAC files, why should there be any difference. Yes, there are
different masterings of albums done at different times, and some can be
better than others (this is unrelated to being FLAC). But assuming the
FLAC files are from the same CD source (same mastering), then why
wouldn't we expect the Sound quality to be identical?   Are you
wondering whether Wimp is applying some sort of odd compression to its
FLAC files?I'm certainly willing to bet my paycheck that WIMP does
not get any record companies to provide special mastering only for WIMP
streaming.  That would be a very expensive proposition.

Anyhow, I can't test anything, but I'm curious as to why you think a
streamed FLAC is any different that a local FLAC (assuming they are from
the same mastered CD). The player doesn't know that the file arrived
over the internet vs arrived from your local server. Flac is Flac.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread bhaagensen

I'm pretty sure some of the WiMP flacs are different from my/the
CD-version. As to how this could be, I think you gave a fairly good
summary. Would be nice to have the opinions of others who could for
example have another pressing of The Man in Black, if such exists. So
I think you kind of gave the answer to you own question.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread garym

bhaagensen wrote: 
 I'm pretty sure some of the WiMP flacs are different from my/the
 CD-version. As to how this could be, I think you gave a fairly good
 summary. Would be nice to have the opinions of others who could for
 example have another pressing of The Man in Black, if such exists. So
 I think you kind of gave the answer to you own question.

OK. That makes sense. And there are a number of different mastering
CDs floating around that can sound quite different. Not sure about The
Man in Black (although I'm a fan of Johnny Cash!).  But for example,
you could own one of the early (80s, or was it early 90s) Beatles CDs
but then hear a FLAC song on WIMP that comes from one of the Box
releases from a couple of years ago (and to be even more confusing, it
could be the MONO version or the Stereo version).  I have all these
Beatles CDs and, yes, the same song from the early CDs, or the newer
Stereo box, or newer Mono box, can all 3 sound completely different
(even though they are all FLAC files ripped from the CDs).  Or you could
be listening to the recently released (and remastered) Fleetwood Mac
Then Play On locally but WIMP could be playing the older (and badly
mastered) CD release of the same song.  But I suspect we're lucky enough
when streamers tell us the album, track name, artist, and album artwork
for a song they are streaming. Doubtful they would ever also add info on
which mastering the track comes from, etc. (although that would be great
of course).

(for a major, major difference in mastering, check out the original
release CDs of ZZ TOP, particularly first 3 albums which had been
remastered to give them god-awful 80s synth drum sounds. And then
compare any song on these first 3 zz top CDs from the CDs rereleased
this year (2013) that contain the ORIGINAL vinyl mixes of those albums. 
Night and Day difference.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread Mnyb

An interesting test would be to test a record known to be hdcd if you
have a hdcd capable DAC .
( but these are getting a bit old fashioned ) .

Re suggestions of volume adjustment or compression , does everything
sound at the same level when building a wimp hifi playlist ? Or are the
level differences you could expect there , if you put songs from the
80's in there with 2000 stuff .

But can such service really have any real source controll , they provide
a framework for the record companies to provide files and metadata . Any
such service would have problems to scrutinise every album uploaded (
even if they should ).

So I think saddly it's up to users of such services to actually report
content oddities ?

But I do think that wimp hifi should mandate some form of pedigree
,some kind of documentation from the content providers .
What kind of master is this ? is it from a previusly aviable release (
if so which one ) or is it specially mastered for streaming services
?

Any insiders on this forum that knows if there is mastering for
Internet streaming or if I just made than one up 
Yes I should get the 24h free trial in the weekend , to see for myself
:)




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread garym

Mnyb wrote: 
 
 Any insiders on this forum that knows if there is mastering for
 Internet streaming or if I just made than one up 
 Yes I should get the 24h free trial in the weekend , to see for myself
 :)

Good question. My first reaction is no, how could there be...too much
trouble. But I recall (not sure where I read this) that some of the
high bitrate lossy streaming on Spotify or MOG had some sort of
additional compression applied that made it sound a bit different from
similar high bitrate mp3 ripped from own CD.  But even in this case, I
think this compression (or whatever it is) is something applied to the
entire stream (and NOT differently mastered or differently treated
individual albums).

p.s. You raise an important point on the original question. If the OP's
local FLAC has (or doesn't have) replaygain tags and the streamed FLAC
does (or doesn't) or even if the RG tag values are different between the
two, the two songs could sound different in terms of volume. And we know
from controlled experiments that often slight differences in volume are
interpreted as differences in SOUND QUALITY (rather than differences in
volume).



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread bhaagensen

I don't use replay-gain (although my files are tagged). Not sure how it
works with streaming and replay-gain client-side. Of course it could be
that (as you indicate Mnyb) replay-gain is applied server side. The test
you suggest should give some hints -  will look into it...

But good ideas.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread bhaagensen

Mnyb wrote: 
 
 But I do think that wimp hifi should mandate some form of pedigree
 ,some kind of documentation from the content providers .
 What kind of master is this ? is it from a previusly aviable release (
 if so which one ) or is it specially mastered for streaming services
 ?
 

Yes that would be nice. In a way also to be expected, I'd say, as part
of the HiFi-package. I mean. If you bother using (and paying extra)
for 16/44 flac over 320kbps mp3, you're also likely to be the kind of
person who would like to know exactly what
remastering/re-release/whatever you have!?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-02 Thread Mnyb

Yes i Will probably at some  piont in the near future try wimp . Don't
get me wrong i do like the idea .
Spotify is far from perfect so maybe the completion offers a better
overall experience .

But HIFI branded streaming  it would take more then just flac files to
get it rigth .

But let's here from someone who's tried it I haven't yet .




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-01 Thread pkfox

bhaagensen wrote: 
 Except from trying for the sake of trying I've actually never seriously
 used smart gain (I assume thats what you mean) settings. Maybe I
 should.
 
 In case you're interested: Do you have Cash's, The Man Comes Around?
 Mind giving the title track a spin and compare it to one on WiMP. Won't
 give you my take, but its interesting ;)

Hi there, how do you enable Wimp in a Transporter ?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-01 Thread garym

pkfox wrote: 
 Hi there, how do you enable Wimp in a Transporter ?

Not sure where you are, but this will not work in the United States. The
countries it does work in will also require a paid subscription to WIMP.
There is a WIMP plugin installed in WebGUI  Settings  Plugins (but
again, won't work in many countries)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-01 Thread pkfox

garym wrote: 
 Not sure where you are, but this will not work in the United States. The
 countries it does work in will also require a paid subscription to WIMP.
 There is a WIMP plugin installed in WebGUI  Settings  Plugins (but
 again, won't work in many countries)
 
 edit:
 WiMP IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE IN:
 Denmark
 Germany
 Norway
 Poland
 Sweden

OK, thanks I'm in the UK so its a no goer, don't understand why, if its
a web streaming server why its restricted to certain countries.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-01 Thread bhaagensen

Its unfortunate and I dont know any specifics, but suppose its due to 
IPR on the material. The law has pehaps not followed the development in
technology. iTunes/Netflix/Rhapsody/Spotify/HBO/Pandora/Quobus/etc/etc
all have the same issues albeit dealt with in different ways.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-01 Thread garym

Music rights all differ by country. Same sort of country restrictions on
pandora, spotify,etc. really a mess in an interconnected world.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2)  LMS 7.8  Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2)  LMS 7.7.2  Touch  Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
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*Office:* Win7(64)  LMS 7.8  SqueezePlay
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*Controllers:* iPhone4S (iPeng), iPad2 (iPengHD  SqueezePad),
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Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Spotify

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-12-01 Thread pkfox

OK thanks to you both.



When the going gets weird - the weird turn pro. Hunter S Thompson

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-11-30 Thread callesoroe

bhaagensen wrote: 
 Those of you using WiMP hifi. Thoughts on the sound quality on WiMP
 hifi? Compared to my flac-rips I think their absolutely on par. In fact.
 I'm wondering if sometimes the mastering is a bit quieter? Anyone know
 anything about the origins of the files that WiMP ate using? Or maybe
 you have similar or different experiences?

I don't hear differences in mastering. The good recordings don't need
any replay gain, but most modern pop/rock recordings do. In LMS 7.8 you
can set external streaming level and -5 works fine for me on loudness
recordings.
I agree with you on the soundquality. Absolute super :)



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] WiMP soundq

2013-11-30 Thread bhaagensen

Except from trying for the sake of trying I've actually never seriously
used smart gain (I assume thats what you mean) settings. Maybe I
should.

In case you're interested: Do you have Cash's, The Man Comes Around?
Mind giving the title track a spin and compare it to one on WiMP. Won't
give you my take, but its interesting ;)



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