Re: [Aus-soaring] spin training
Hi Harry, Merry Christmas to you. You have of course (and as usual), correctly identified the real problem. It is safe speed near the ground. Maintain that and there will be no chance of spinning. Spinning is a secondary effect of flying too slow, yet somehow it is now the spin and not the speed that is considered all important in our training system. If we want to safely train for safe speed near the ground, including spin recognition and recovery, we should be making much more use of simulators, at every level of experience. If people on the list have never tried this, visit Benalla and see what happens when you spin a Ventus 2, a K21, an Astir or an Antares. You can try all in the space of 30 minutes. It is genuinely realistic. Recover wrong (depending on the glider) and it flicks the other way.And if it turns into a spiral dive and exceeds VNE it flutters and the wings fall off. You can do a flat over-ruddered turn at any altitude including on final. No one dies, but the experience is genuine and the lesson graphic. The same by the way is true for teaching rope breaks and launch failures, on both aerotow and winch. And if anyone thinks that simulators are not putting enough "pressure" on, try it first. You won't make that claim after you have just "killed" yourself. The sim at Benalla was made out of an IS28 fuselage because it has all the controls, it has a wraparound 180 deg screen, and can be used for all phases of flight including cross-country. It cost less than $10,000 to make, uses off the shelf components and costs next to nothing to run. It isn't portable though. Oh and there is nothing at all wrong with old gliders. They are often beautiful, historic and a pleasure to fly. But basically irrelevant for training people who are going to fly modern gliders. The way forward won't be found by looking in the rear view mirror :) Cheers /Tim Shirley/ /tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/ On 26/12/2014 10:15 AM, Harry wrote: Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin. So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below about 1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28, which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable tim
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training
Hi Harry The dual car system is working well, plenty of power, tension control, no cable breaks, no drum tangles and quick turnaround. How is your winch going ? Compared to Australia, the BGA have done a lot of winch launching so it makes sense to look carefully at what they had done. I have read much of the material published on the BGA website about safe winch launching and much of it seems applicable to our operations, however I welcome input from others in Australia experienced at winch launching. The GFA sets a minumum, however as I understand it there is nothing to stop individual Clubs that are concerned about safety to up the minimum winch launch speed to a higher figure such as 1.5 Vs. We do a lot of aerotowing in Australia so we should do a safe aerotowing initiative for the Brits to follow although they have already beaten us to it. ! Cheers Michael On Fri, 26 Dec 2014 15:04:44 +1100 "Harry " wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Not sure of your winch status. The Brits after an extensive investigation > introduced âSafe Winch Launchâ. Its principles reduced the winching > accident > rate to 25% of what it was and has virtually eliminated fatalities. Worth > checking out their web site if interested. It uses 1.5 VS as the winch > launch minimum. They have no record of an airworthy glider being damaged by > overspeeding but many accidents and fatalities by being too slow. I tried to > get the GFA to adopt the principles in Safe Winch Launch. Initially they > accepted 1.5 VS as the minimum but reduced it to 1.3 VS after some clubs > complained that 1.5 VS left too small a margin between it and the max. > winch launch speed allowed for some older gliders. > > I could go on with other instances. > > Harry > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Derry > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 11:32 AM > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training > > Hi All > > Why is there such a paranoa about maintaining safe airspeed (which is > accepted to be 1.5 times Vs plus 1/2 windspeed) near the ground for > general flying if below 1,000 feet however: > winch launching pilots only have to maintain 1.3 Vs while they have a > gigantic airbrake deployed (ie their wing at 30 degrees or more). > > Doesn't make a lot of sense. > > Michael Derry > __ > Hi All, > > I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off > the web. > I should have summarised as follows. > > > 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost > certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. > 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early > training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this > criteria. > 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean > relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern > slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the > ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On > final > under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is > needed > to ensure safe speed is maintained. > 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient > recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal > or > close to the ground. > 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 > ft > AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. > > Harry Medlicott > Hi All, > > Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is > marginal > in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design > factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents > in > Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but > modern gliders are far more forgiving. > > My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in > and > towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were > quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. > > My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we > had > students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that > thermals > were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik > by > a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by > 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but > certainly not in some other types > > Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely > different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground > below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back > and > sometimes also move the control c
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training
Hi Michael, Not sure of your winch status. The Brits after an extensive investigation introduced “Safe Winch Launch”. Its principles reduced the winching accident rate to 25% of what it was and has virtually eliminated fatalities. Worth checking out their web site if interested. It uses 1.5 VS as the winch launch minimum. They have no record of an airworthy glider being damaged by overspeeding but many accidents and fatalities by being too slow. I tried to get the GFA to adopt the principles in Safe Winch Launch. Initially they accepted 1.5 VS as the minimum but reduced it to 1.3 VS after some clubs complained that 1.5 VS left too small a margin between it and the max. winch launch speed allowed for some older gliders. I could go on with other instances. Harry -Original Message- From: Michael Derry Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 11:32 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spin Training Hi All Why is there such a paranoa about maintaining safe airspeed (which is accepted to be 1.5 times Vs plus 1/2 windspeed) near the ground for general flying if below 1,000 feet however: winch launching pilots only have to maintain 1.3 Vs while they have a gigantic airbrake deployed (ie their wing at 30 degrees or more). Doesn't make a lot of sense. Michael Derry __ Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin. So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below about 1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28, which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable time after undergoing spin training or refreshing? Not very high. When asked to give a nervous pilot spin training I would say “We are going to undertake spin avoidance training” whereupon they would relax. After release at say 3,000 ft I would establish safe speed near the ground and invite them to mishandle the glider with rudder and aileron and try and induce a spin. The message was that if you establish and maintain safe speed near the ground, a spin is improbable. After that, of course, we undertook standard spin training. Instructors right from a students very first flight should emphasise that they have establis
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day:
Hey Chris, Knowing Patch, he would be now seasoning the wood to build a Boomerang :)) Old Edmund will be kicking around there somewhere, so he'll have help. Leigh Bunting Christopher McDonnell wrote: >Hi Leigh, > >I bet Patch is having a ball getting the hang of and maximising the >performance of ornithoptering around. > >Cheers > >Chris > >-Original Message- >From: Leigh Bunting >Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 8:31 AM >To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day: > >Hey Patch, > >I hope St Peter let you subcribe to the list. > >I expect you will be getting a giggle out of this - or was that the >thunder I just heard earlier > >Cheers mate > >Leigh > >On 25/12/14 21:37, James Dutschke wrote: >> he was forced to have the horses draw a suitable replacement. A 1932 >> zeppelin. > >___ >Aus-soaring mailing list >Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >To check or change subscription details, visit: >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >___ >Aus-soaring mailing list >Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >To check or change subscription details, visit: >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] horses for gliding
Thank you, I am pleased to see return of humour to the list beginning with Tim's contribution a few days earlier. This also means that several generations of glider pilots can help one another out with what the words mean and where the knowledge comes from. It may reverse the loss in corporate wisdom visible in other parts of the sport. vh_...@internode.on.net wrote: Hey Patch, I hope St Peter let you subcribe to the list. I expect you will be getting a giggle out of this - or was that the thunder I just heard earlier Cheers mate James Dutschke wrote: I consulted Santa on the spin characteristics of a sleigh during his visit last night. We spoke at length and he cited one example where donner and blitzen weren't pulling their weight. This combined with the large payload he was carrying (must have been early in the night), and some slack loading by the elves led to a rearward c of g, asymmetric loading and asymmetric thrust. In the resulting spin he fell back on his training conducted during his annual currency flight conducted in the European summer. As reindeer are unavailable during summer the only substitutes available are horses. And as horses are not endorsed for pulling the sleigh under the new CASA part 61 regulations, he was forced to have the horses draw a suitable replacement. A 1932 zeppelin. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Spin Training
Hi All Why is there such a paranoa about maintaining safe airspeed (which is accepted to be 1.5 times Vs plus 1/2 windspeed) near the ground for general flying if below 1,000 feet however: winch launching pilots only have to maintain 1.3 Vs while they have a gigantic airbrake deployed (ie their wing at 30 degrees or more). Doesn't make a lot of sense. Michael Derry __ Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin. So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below about 1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28, which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable time after undergoing spin training or refreshing? Not very high. When asked to give a nervous pilot spin training I would say We are going to undertake spin avoidance training whereupon they would relax. After release at say 3,000 ft I would establish safe speed near the ground and invite them to mishandle the glider with rudder and aileron and try and induce a spin. The message was that if you establish and maintain safe speed near the ground, a spin is improbable. After that, of course, we undertook standard spin training. Instructors right from a students very first flight should emphasise that they have established and maintained safe speed near the ground when they are at a height at which they would not like to attempt a spin recovery. Just as importantly, that their lookout procedures are excellent. My message to a student or visitor in an introductory flight was that I could not see where we going from the back seat and that their good lookout was needed to keep us safe, Harry Medlicott >From: Peter (PCS3) Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 10:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's last flying day: On 24/12/2014 8:41 PM, Colin Collum wrote: Gday All, One of the ironies of gliding seems to be that modern sleek gliders are not only faster in virtually every sense, they are also safer in that many of them are much less likely to spin, but unfortunately our novice pilot cant be guaranteed to always fly an aircraft that wont spin. I was instructing a girl i
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day:
Hi Leigh, I bet Patch is having a ball getting the hang of and maximising the performance of ornithoptering around. Cheers Chris -Original Message- From: Leigh Bunting Sent: Friday, December 26, 2014 8:31 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day: Hey Patch, I hope St Peter let you subcribe to the list. I expect you will be getting a giggle out of this - or was that the thunder I just heard earlier Cheers mate Leigh On 25/12/14 21:37, James Dutschke wrote: he was forced to have the horses draw a suitable replacement. A 1932 zeppelin. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] JANUARY ISSUE 2015 - GLIDING INTERNATIONAL
GLIDING INTERNATIONAL ISSUE JANUARY 2015 Although we mailed the January issue on December 19, we would not expect most world readers to get their copy before Christmas. Nevertheless it is worth waiting for. 1. The lead story is about the fabulous find of a whole new Gliding Site in Utah USA called Nephi. It has everything you could want in a gliding site read the full story and possibly go and enjoy the facilities. 2. Aldo Cernezzi our sailplane specialist and evaluator writes about Binders EB28. This 60:1 plus sailplane with the latest models now having 30m wing spans is something to behold. Photographs that are simply breathtaking. 3. You have never seen a photo of a sailplane grid with 131 gliders before. Positioned with great care, the photo is spell-binding. Taken at the 31st Worlds in Poland, 2014. 4. A story about the WK² aircraft that combines into a power aircraft tug and a high performance 18 metre sailplane. A unique concept that is seeking investors to hold their hand up and help get the project into the air. 5. Our first ever story about gliding in Ireland. Our pilot writes about his flight from Dublin to Ulster (Northern Ireland) and back. Fascinating! 6. Centre spread is a photo of two sailplanes preparing to land at Rieti, Italy. Great viewing and previously unpublished. 7. An in-depth story with supporting photographs of the new air-traffic control tower system being manned via scene capturing cameras. The tower of the future, America is looking seriously at establishing a net work. 8. Tell your 70 year old friend it is not too late to start to learn gliding. An evaluation of the opportunities available to those in the latter span of life. 9. Story about an electric mobility cycle that folds sufficiently small enough to fit in the locker of your sailplane. Makes you mobile wherever you land out. 10. The Germans have developed a paint that when applied acts like on giant solar cell. Has a future for sailplanes. 11. Learning to use the radio has become a limiting hazard for new trainees. In this issue, an article that will help the novice overcome the necessity of ³learning the new language² involved in radio communication. 12. Learning to cloud fly will definitely improve your thermalling technique and make you a more precise thermalling pilot and increase your cross country speeds. A review on whether you should learn to cloud fly. 13. Germany is spending 82.4 million Euros on a new aviation research centre involving 14 major aviation organisations. Gliding is part of the development of this major concept that will open in December 2015. A great story. 14. The first sustainer jet unit has been has officially been rated and approved by Germany¹s EASA. Complete details in this issue. 15 There is talk amongst designers that smaller rudders with induced air flows can lead to greater sailplane performance. NASA is involved in researching this concept. 16. Battery recharging can now be achieved from wing flexing. Has all the signs of likely advantages for your sailplane. A small unit that that can be retro fitted. 17. Lange (Germany) has just been involved in another court case over year¹s delay in production and not being able to refund deposits. 18. Jonker JS1¹s now available ex a factory in Germany and being EASA rated. 19. The world¹s leading 20 sailplane pilots is now headed by a Polish pilot. The list shows them in order as at December 20. 20 The first ever plastic sailplane (made in 1958 ) rescued from the scrap heap and being restored. All this and 60 more news items from Gliding¹s International scene. New or renewing subscribers should use www.glidinginternational.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] spin training
Hi All, I wrote the attached article and it received a few comments, both on and off the web. I should have summarised as follows. 1. If you enter a spin a modern glider below 1,000 ft. AGL you will almost certainly die. No amount of prior training will make much difference. 2.Your first defence is to maintain safe speed near the ground. Your early training should be such that you feel very uncomfortable if below this criteria. 3. To maintain this speed you must monitor the ASI. Ground features mean relying on the horizon attitude is not accurate, particularly with modern slippery gliders. The ASI should be checked regularly and the closer to the ground and more adverse the conditions the more frequently the check. On final under turbulent conditions a quick check no more than every 5 seconds is needed to ensure safe speed is maintained. 4. Learning and practicing incipient recovery. If things go wrong incipient recovery means living to a ripe old age more certain, whether in a thermal or close to the ground. 5. Spin training helps in spins at altitude. Enter a spin below about 1,000 ft AGL in a modern glider and you will most likely be dead in about 5 seconds. Harry Medlicott Hi All, Sorry to be controversial but I believe most of our spin training is marginal in saving lives in the real world. Of far greater significance are design factors reducing the propensity of gliders to spin. Spin related accidents in Europe have substantially reduced over time. No changes in spin training but modern gliders are far more forgiving. My first club had winch launching only and every year a tug was brought in and towed gliders to 3,000 ft for spin training. After briefing, students were quite comfortable going through the standard recovery procedures. My second club was winch launching only. Often there were periods when we had students due for spin training but weather conditions were such that thermals were not able to give us much by way of height. I experimented with a Blanik by a spin of the top of a winch launch which after one turn allowed recovery by 1,000 ft. before using the procedure with a student. OK in a Blanik but certainly not in some other types Despite very careful briefing a few minutes before the results were entirely different to those when entering a spin at 3,000 ft. Upon seeing the ground below them the student would immediately pull the control column right back and sometimes also move the control column away from the descending wing. It was an involuntary reaction but the one we would use to keep the glider in a spin. So far as I am aware most spin accidents occur close to the ground, below about 1,000 ft unless one is flying a particularly nasty glider such as an IS28, which can take over 1,000 ft for the whole process. If what I am saying is correct, then what are the chances of a pilot using the correct recovery processes in a low level spin, perhaps a considerable time after undergoing spin training or refreshing? Not very high. When asked to give a nervous pilot spin training I would say “We are going to undertake spin avoidance training” whereupon they would relax. After release at say 3,000 ft I would establish safe speed near the ground and invite them to mishandle the glider with rudder and aileron and try and induce a spin. The message was that if you establish and maintain safe speed near the ground, a spin is improbable. After that, of course, we undertook standard spin training. Instructors right from a students very first flight should emphasise that they have established and maintained safe speed near the ground when they are at a height at which they would not like to attempt a spin recovery. Just as importantly, that their lookout procedures are excellent. My message to a student or visitor in an introductory flight was that I could not see where we going from the back seat and that their good lookout was needed to keep us safe, Harry Medlicott From: Peter (PCS3) Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 10:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spinning Re: IS-28B CQC's last flying day: On 24/12/2014 8:41 PM, Colin Collum wrote: G’day All, One of the ironies of gliding seems to be that modern sleek gliders are not only faster in virtually every sense, they are also safer in that many of them are much less likely to spin, but unfortunately our novice pilot can’t be guaranteed to always fly an aircraft that won’t spin. I was instructing a girl in the front seat of a Twin Astir and said to her: "Twin Astirs just mush instead of spinning" To my surprise, she managed to spin it easily (because of her light weight) and it required full opposite rudder to stop it as well as easing the stick forward and a very steep dive enough for a loop. I was in a Ventus 2b on a Xcountry having lunch in a thermal. I reached behind me to grab the water tube; the bottle was strapped on
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day:
Hey Patch, I hope St Peter let you subcribe to the list. I expect you will be getting a giggle out of this - or was that the thunder I just heard earlier Cheers mate Leigh On 25/12/14 21:37, James Dutschke wrote: he was forced to have the horses draw a suitable replacement. A 1932 zeppelin. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day:
I consulted Santa on the spin characteristics of a sleigh during his visit last night. We spoke at length and he cited one example where donner and blitzen weren't pulling their weight. This combined with the large payload he was carrying (must have been early in the night), and some slack loading by the elves led to a rearward c of g, asymmetric loading and asymmetric thrust. In the resulting spin he fell back on his training conducted during his annual currency flight conducted in the European summer. As reindeer are unavailable during summer the only substitutes available are horses. And as horses are not endorsed for pulling the sleigh under the new CASA part 61 regulations, he was forced to have the horses draw a suitable replacement. A 1932 zeppelin. Kindest regards and merry drawing rapidly to a close, Christmas. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Dec 2014, at 13:31, Mark Newton wrote: > >> On 24 Dec 2014, at 11:02 pm, Grant Davies wrote: >> >> 1. Regarding spinning; I am under the impression aerobatics is prohibited >> under 2,000ft without endorsement. I am also lead to believe a spin is an >> aerobatic manoeuvre. > > Check your Operational Regulations: Aerobatic minimum in gliders is 1000’. > > (probably set so that GFA could legally train spins from the top of winch > launches) > > As for being an aerobatic manoeuvre: Do you have an aerobatic endorsement? > Did the instructor who taught you spins? > > - mark > > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] : Hawaiian Pawnee tug in the drink
I reckon he spun you a line. On 25/12/2014 6:48 pm, Derek Ruddock wrote: That's the outcome of having a 'glider' add-on rating to a power licence. They only need an absolute minimum of hours before they can take rides. When I flew there, I was allowed to take the controls, after briefing the pilot on my experience (L2 instructor etc.) There was an offshore wind unfortunately, so no ridge soaring anyway, but there were thermals and we went whale watching over the bay. When I asked the pilot if I could try a spin, he gave an emphatic and terrified 'negative' followed by a lecture of the ' vicious spin characteristics' of the 2-33. When it was time to return, he flew the whole circuit at 80mph. When I asked why, he said the 'Vicious spin characteristics' of the glider required it. I reckon he had never spun anything in his life. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Thursday, 25 December 2014 2:08 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] : Hawaiian Pawnee tug in the drink On 24 Dec 2014, at 10:11 pm, Peter (PCS3) wrote: Great place to ridge soar unless the vog is blown in from the Big Island volcano. f/vog like when we were there. The ridge is parallel and about a klm from the runway. I visited in 2008. The commercial operation there has a clause in their ops manual saying they can't ridge soar, which was a bit disappointing. I suppose you could as a private owner, but there's no club as such. The "joyflights" are carried out by people with little or no gliding experience: Aerotow to 5000', float down, land. I didn't get the impression that the pilots knew or cared much about thermalling, the one I flew with was sensitive to unusual attitudes and got nervous when I slowed to thermalling speed, and didn't want to know about flying close to the rocks. Bit of a waste of a good site. It'd be great in a northerly! - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
