Baha'u'llah and the Templars
A good source of information on the Templars who came to Mt. Carmel, is Dr. David Ruhe's book "Door of Hope." I'm sick or I'd take the time to look it up. But anyway, my impression of the question, did Baha'u'llah know about the Templars and their association with Mt. Carmel when He chose to put His tent there. Patti is correct that Baha'u'llah was severely limited in where He could go. When He left the prison city of `Akka, he stayed in its neighborhood, and Haifa was the farthest point He went. Though the strict confinement in the Sultan's firman had obviously lost most of its power, He was still a prisoner. Originally it was a kind of house arrest, but gradually He went farther, and during the last 3 or 4 years of His life made 3 visits to Haifa. The Templars had come to Haifa to await the return of Christ to Mt. Carmel within two months time of Baha'u'llah's banishment to the prison city of `Akka. One of the remarkable sights you see when you go to Haifa is the German Templar house with the German phrase Der Herr ist Nahe, The Lord is Nigh, etched in stone over the doorway. It is not merely that this is etched on one of these houses. It is that Baha'u'llah pitched His tent on the vacant lot right next to it! Nigh indeed! Did Baha'u'llah know about the Templars and their connection to Carmel? One might as well ask, did Jesus know about the prophecy in Zechariah that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey? Baha'u'llah was banished to `Akka, it was not His choice. There is an explicit promise in Isaiah 35:2 that Carmel will see the Splendor of our God. That's a verbatim translation of Baha'u'llah. Likewise in the Revelation of St. John, Chapter 3 verse 12, Jesus promises that the Holy City will come down out of heaven from God "with My new Name." In Revelation 21:10 John sees that City descending, "Having the Glory of God." Again, a translation of the Name "Baha'u'llah." Consider. If in the Old Testament there was a promise that the Messiah's name would be Jesus the Christ; that verse would be stamped in 24 carat gold on the face of every Bible. When Baha'u'llah went to Carmel, He wrote a Tablet to their leader, John David Hardegg. In it, He quotes verses from the Revelation of John Chapter 21, promising the Glory of God, then He asks Hardegg, "Have you read John?" Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto: > Not exactly. I'm was saying **Jesus** didn't change the laws. But then > Pauline Christianity after him declared most or all of the rules of > the Torah abrogated. I think there is a fairly large disconnect > between what Jesus taught and Christian doctrines. > Patti: I largely agree with you on this. > Patti: > My interest in the Templars stems (other than a > > supposed connection to the Priory of Scion that Dan Brown writes about in > > The Da Vinci Code) to the fact that a group of German Templars, by studying > > the prophecies of the Bible actually determined the time & place and moved > > to Mt. Carmel to look for the return of Christ and lived just below the spot > > on Mt Carmel where Baha'u'llah pitched His tent when He was finally allowed > > a bit of freedom during His exile to Akka. > > Gilberto: > Did Bahaullah know about the Templars and their association with Mt. > Carmel when he chose to put his tent there? > Patti: I don't know the answer to that one; however, in that day it may have been one of the few places around Akka someone could pitch a tent (i.e. not privately claimed or in cultivation)? Baha'u'llah was confined in His exile to the vicinity around Akka. Maybe someone else could shed more light on this. > > > Gilberto: > > > The disciples of Jesus were a special group with > > > a more specialized set of requirements. Some teachings were for them, > > > and other teachings were for the general crowd. Not all men can > > > receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. So Jesus > > > wasn't abolishing the laws in the Torah about divorce, he was giving > > > more specific instructions to his disciples. > > > Patti: > > That's an interesting way of looking at it. I've never made a distinction > > between disciples--to me a believer is a disciple. > > Gilberto: > Well, think about it. There were 12 disciples at first, but there were > others who believed without being disciples (the various Marys for > instance, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimethea, etc.) > > Gilberto: > I think if you look at the instructions Jesus gives to his disciples > in the New Testament it would be difficult to impossible to base an > entire country on those principles: Patti: I like your comparison of Christ's disciples and Sufi mystics, and certainly you have found some material to distinguish some disciples from some believers. I'm still not certain that I would make an overall distinction between disciple & believer. I would distinguish between the 12 Apostles and other believers. It can perhaps be argued that when Christ speaks of only some being about to understand the parables that it was between "disciples" and other believers; however, I think I would take it to be between believers and non-believers. I think that perhaps Christ is more clear about who is NOT a believer (and these seem to me to be a fairly high bar in accordance with the stringent requirments you speak about for specific "disciples"): "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (King James Bible, Matthew 7:20-23 ) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." (King James Bible, Matthew 25:41-45 ) Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 02:35 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>I'm not sure if that is a good example. Most of the "Christian" bookstores >>have a very narrow focus, with a strong emphasis on materials which are used >>in churches (sunday school curricula, sheet music, that kind of stuff) so it >>isn't supersurprising that there is a strong avoidance of contraversey.<< It depends on the Christian bookstore. I think you may be talking about church supply stores. However, most major metropolitan areas have at least one Christian book superstore. One of the largest in the Kansas City area is one just four blocks from my home. (I stop by there on a regular basis.) >>But you can still read Spong, or Matthew Fox, or more intellectual works from >>mainstream bookstores or New Age bookstores.<< "Christian" bookstores are a huge retail market, and there are a lot of people who purchase all of their books from them. They would not likely carry books by John Shelby Spong or Matthew Fox. I know that the store near me doesn't sell books by these authors. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Review
"Why invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of day because of review?" Dear Ron, There are very few books which never see the light of day because of review and usually the ones rejected are of very poor quality. Academic publications present a special case inasmuch as academics are generally running into deadline problems and haven't the time to put articles through review before submitting and if their colleagues knew they were doing this at all there would be problems. "Without review, for all we know, there might have been Baha'i best-sellers" Over all, I think the review process improves the quality of publications, rather than hurts them. However, I agree that the internet has made review obsolete. I think it raises ethical problems for academics as well. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilbert wrote: > What is interesting though is that (at least my understanding is that) > Quakers are opposed to most formal rituals so they specifically don't > baptize with water and don't use bread and wine in the eucharist. And > instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for > someone to be moved by the inner light. I felt comfortable > participating (except that nobody felt moved to speak) because for me > it was just sitting around a candle waiting till you had something you > felt you wanted share. But I think from a Quaker perspective, that was > their Eucharist. Interesting comment. As a Quaker for many years before becoming a Baha'i, I've often observed that superficially the Baha'is and the Quakers resemble each other in a number of ways. By the way, you are referring to the unprogrammed or more traditional Quakers. I always treasured the silent meetings, but over the years I learned that people observe this in many different ways. For instance, I never felt that silent worship was the same thing as meditation. I feel that silent worship is hard work. It does not involve emptying the mind or concentrating on a single point or mantra, but requires constant discipline to focus the mind on adoration and prayer, as well as periods of meditation and introspection. One is supposed to wait until one is genuinely moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, and yet there were many times when we heard flippant or superficial comments. Whereas the Baha'is have no clergy, all Quakers are considered ministers. Everything in a Quaker meeting is done by committee, and unanimity is valued over unity. What this means in practical terms is that too often, nothing gets accomplished. I believe this is all too often a shortcoming of Baha'i communities, as well. David Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:15:52 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ron, > Personally, I am not sure. I think that, even without review, most of the > published materials would be pretty lame anyway. For instance, if you are a > "Christian" writer, and you want your books to be promoted through the usual > channels and sold in "Christian" bookstores, you had better not make too many > controversial statements. I'm not sure if that is a good example. Most of the "Christian" bookstores have a very narrow focus, with a strong emphasis on materials which are used in churches (sunday school curricula, sheet music, that kind of stuff) so it isn't supersurprising that there is a strong avoidance of contraversey. But you can still read Spong, or Matthew Fox, or more intellectual works from mainstream bookstores or New Age bookstores. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Ron, At 01:12 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>Well, one way the policy of review hurts is that there a lot less books >>written about Baha'i related topics, than there would be without review. Why >>invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of >>day because of review?<< I know of at least a few instances where that happened. >>On top of all that, the Baha'i books that are published are a lot less >>creative than they otherwise would have been, and so we get a lot of the same >>kind of books written over and over again, rather than new kinds of thinking, >>which would be more interesting and useful and therefore help to attract a >>lot more seekers to the faith.<< Personally, I am not sure. I think that, even without review, most of the published materials would be pretty lame anyway. For instance, if you are a "Christian" writer, and you want your books to be promoted through the usual channels and sold in "Christian" bookstores, you had better not make too many controversial statements. >>Yes, the internet helps. But the internet is not optimal for all kinds of >>communication, and internet communication has its down sides, as we all have >>seen.<< Eventually, I don't think there will be a difference between the Internet and a library. Most American colleges and universities already have online data bases (available only to faculty and students). They contain digitized journals, abstracts, and entire books. Would the Baha'i materials have been covered by review when those materials were in hard copy form, but not covered by review after they are placed on the Internet? There are also a growing number of online refereed journals. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 01:24 PM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>And instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for >>someone to be moved by the inner light.<< That is true with the unprogrammed meetings. However, the programmed meetings operate similarly to what one expect in any church (a paid minister, sermons, etc.). In fact, Evangelical Friends International supports the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Some Friends churches set aside some time for silence. Others have entirely discarded the practice. In the Midwest, where I am, most Quakers go to programmed meetings. However, there are two unprogrammed meetings (one Wilburite and the other Hicksite) here in the Kansas City area. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:15:21 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a message dated 12/17/2004 10:06:31 AM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais > participating in such services and trying to listen to revelation > through the "inner light"? > We are supposed to "consort with the followers of all faiths in the greatest > amity. . . " I have no compunction in attending services in another faith, I > decline the part of the service where "members only" are involved - like the > Eucharist. That's a personal limitation for me. As to the inner light, well > we are drawn to the light and the only light we can experience personally is > that inner light, we seek the light elsewhere secondarily. What is interesting though is that (at least my understanding is that) Quakers are opposed to most formal rituals so they specifically don't baptize with water and don't use bread and wine in the eucharist. And instead of the Eucharist, they sit around in meetings and wait for someone to be moved by the inner light. I felt comfortable participating (except that nobody felt moved to speak) because for me it was just sitting around a candle waiting till you had something you felt you wanted share. But I think from a Quaker perspective, that was their Eucharist. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Mark wrote: """If it were up to me, I would end it today. However, as time goes on, review may become increasingly irrelevant anyway. For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? """ Well, one way the policy of review hurts is that there a lot less books written about Baha'i related topics, than there would be without review. Why invest the time and effort to write a book when it may never see the light of day because of review? There are also a lot less magazine articles, newspaper articles, and other communication pieces written and communication activities undertaken than there would be without review. The consequence is that the Faith gets a lot less publicity, and therefore gets noticed a lot less. On top of all that, the Baha'i books that are published are a lot less creative than they otherwise would have been, and so we get a lot of the same kind of books written over and over again, rather than new kinds of thinking, which would be more interesting and useful and therefore help to attract a lot more seekers to the faith. Without review, for all we know, there might have been Baha'i best-sellers; books about the Baha'i Faith, in whole or in part, that sold so many copies than they were atop the New York Times best sellers charts. We'll never know what we have lost. Yes, the internet helps. But the internet is not optimal for all kinds of communication, and internet communication has its down sides, as we all have seen. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Gilberto, At 10:05 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>I wonder how Bahais generally view the Quakers? I've been to Quaker-style >>service where most of the people in the room weren't even Quaker.<< I subscribe to four Quaker-oriented email lists. There is currently an online culture war being waged between Christ-focused Quakers and liberal/universal Quakers. On those lists, I repeatedly read comments from Quakers complaining about the elevation of tradition over mysticism in Quaker meetings. The following essay is fairly typical: http://www.pendlehill.org/frames%20lectures/caldwell.html The appeal of Quakerism, especially its focus on the inner Light, to many people is understandable. However, most self-defined Christians are not joining Quaker churches and meetings (Friends United Meeting, Evangelical Friends International, etc.), and the more liberal Quaker meetings, such as those associated (in the U.S.) with the Friends General Conference, are experiencing similar declines in membership to liberal churches. >>There was one more conventional Quraker one who came from a Quaker-Buddhist >>background, 2 Bahais, 1 Muslim, and one or two others who are perhaps harder >>to describe religiously. Like Bahais I guess the Quakers don't think that >>revelation ends, but then they are less into the idea of "authorized >>interpreters".<< Not all Quakers believe in the concept of divine revelation. Many are both anti-supernatural physicalists and secularists. Some are also involved with the Ethical Culture Society: http://www.aeu.org/ There are also many Quakers who define themselves as Jews, Buddhists, and neo-pagans. >>Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais participating in such services and >>trying to listen to revelation through the "inner light"?<< Only if they officially joined the one of the Religious Societies of Friends. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/17/2004 12:23:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? The US has already adapted to the realities of the net. Web pages do not need to go through review. I think the same pressures will eventually make the whole process untenable. It already creates more problems than it solves as best I can tell. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Ron, At 09:40 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>Statements by our Central Figures were often made to address particular >>circumstances, and yet we are inappropriately institutionalizing and >>universalizing them into supposedly an inerrant bedrock of general rules that >>are then applied literally under inappropriate circumstances, freezing the >>Bahai community into rigid positions that are out of touch with current and >>future reality.<< IMO, that is one of the reasons for the continuity of the Guardianship. Since it ended, the House of Justice is faced with the difficulty of distinguishing between at least three factors: 1. authoritative interpretations of the text 2. authoritative interpretations of the text related to a specific situation 3. policy statements (which may overlap with "2") >>A great example of this, in my opinion, is the policy of Review. Another >>example is the electoral system, the minute and specific details of which are >>prematurely fossilized in a form appropriate to a smaller community of 50 >>years ago but wildly inappropriate to today and even more so in regards to >>the future.<< If it were up to me, I would end it today. However, as time goes on, review may become increasingly irrelevant anyway. For instance, how will the fact that Google is about to digitize several major libraries relate to the absence of a global policy regarding online review? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
In a message dated 12/17/2004 10:06:31 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahaisparticipating in such services and trying to listen to revelationthrough the "inner light"? We are supposed to "consort with the followers of all faiths in the greatest amity. . . " I have no compunction in attending services in another faith, I decline the part of the service where "members only" are involved - like the Eucharist. That's a personal limitation for me. As to the inner light, well we are drawn to the light and the only light we can experience personally is that inner light, we seek the light elsewhere secondarily. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hi, Gilberto, At 06:40 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote: >>In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and >>a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well.<< Sure, Paul may have been a great soul. However, to conclude that his words are verbally inerrant and intended to guide *all* churches the world over until Christ returns is a bit of a non-sequitur. ;-) If Christians wanted to rely upon Paul's wisdom, I think it would have been more sensible for them to model their contextualizations of the Gospel of Christ on those contained in Paul's epistles, i.e., to regard him as an exemplar. >>I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't >>necessarily imply infallibility.<< IMO, even infallibility doesn't imply infallibility. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:40:04 -0800, Ronald Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Gilberto and Mark, Hello Ronald. > Gilberto wrote: > In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a > >saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his > >epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain > >amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. > Ron replies: > In my opinion, "infallibility", when interpreted and understood in the > English language with all of its connotations from Christian history, always, > always, always causes the most major of problems. Again, in my opinion there > are no such things as infallible understandings of any Writings. Having > authorized interpreters does not eliminate this problem, since their > authorized Interpretations (writings) also must be understood and interpreted. Yeah, that seems like a reasonable statement. > Mark wrote: > "Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles > traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of > his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and universalized into > supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were > forever frozen in the past. > >>"The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to > >> believers who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or > >> Inner Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later > >> Christians could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." > >> http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Yeah, I started to look around on that website and some of the links. The idea of inner light is an interesting one. I wonder how Bahais generally view the Quakers? I've been to Quaker-style service where most of the people in the room weren't even Quaker. There was one more conventional Quraker, one who came from a Quaker-Buddhist background, 2 Bahais, 1 Muslim, and one or two others who are perhaps harder to describe religiously. Like Bahais I guess the Quakers don't think that revelation ends, but then they are less into the idea of "authorized interpreters". Would the Bahai faith be opposed to Bahais participating in such services and trying to listen to revelation through the "inner light"? Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Hello Gilberto and Mark, Gilberto wrote: In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a >saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his >epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain >amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Ron replies: In my opinion, "infallibility", when interpreted and understood in the English language with all of its connotations from Christian history, always, always, always causes the most major of problems. Again, in my opinion there are no such things as infallible understandings of any Writings. Having authorized interpreters does not eliminate this problem, since their authorized Interpretations (writings) also must be understood and interpreted. Mark wrote: "Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and universalized into supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were forever frozen in the past. >>"The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers >> who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner >> Light, without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians >> could have been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." >> http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ Ron replies: Yes, I think you make a very important point here, and one that needs to be heard by Baha'is today, in order to avoid making similar mistakes to the ones the early Christians made. Statements by our Central Figures were often made to address particular circumstances, and yet we are inappropriately institutionalizing and universalizing them into supposedly an inerrant bedrock of general rules that are then applied literally under inappropriate circumstances, freezing the Bahai community into rigid positions that are out of touch with current and future reality. A great example of this, in my opinion, is the policy of Review. Another example is the electoral system, the minute and specific details of which are prematurely fossilized in a form appropriate to a smaller community of 50 years ago but wildly inappropriate to today and even more so in regards to the future. Peace, Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
Yeah, actually that seems right on target. I'm honestly a little surprised though. In the Bahai writings I think Paul is described as a saint and an apostle and a most faithful servant of Jesus and his epistles are quoted from as well. I guess, that just implies a certain amount of respect but doesn't necessarily imply infallibility. Peace Gilberto On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:42:10 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > > At 08:32 AM 12/16/2004, you wrote: > >>I think there is a fairly large disconnect between what Jesus taught and > >>Christian doctrines.<< > > I think that is largely because, as I wrote: > >"Regrettably, the particularized counsel furnished in the epistles > traditionally attributed to the apostle Paul was, within a few centuries of > his passing, inappropriately institutionalized and univeralized into a > supposedly inerrant bedrock of faith. The main branches of Christendom were > forever frozen in the past. >"The Pauline letters should have been regarded as an example to believers > who, like Paul, had spiritually experienced the risen Christ, or Inner Light, > without having encountered him in the flesh. Then later Christians could have > been 'Pauls' to their own nations and communities." > http://exemplars.bahaifaith.info/ > > Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net > "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" > -- Abbie Hoffman > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Baha'i Praises of Islam
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:55:12 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Gilberto, > As a former member of a protestant Christian church, The > Disciples of Christ, I found your comment a bit perplexing. > Like Patti, I've always felt appellation "disciple" referred > to anyone who believed in and followed the teachings of > Christ (in this instance). Actually that is an interesting coincidence. I grew up in a Disciples of Christ Church too. I understand that this is how many Christians read the Bible, i.e. disciple = believer. And maybe I'm overstating this. But after gaining a certain amount of distance from Christianity I was just struck by the way in which Jesus' relation with his disciples was similar to a sufi shaykh's relationship with his disciples. And then when I would reread the Gospels certain passages would stand out as being consistent with this slightly different reading. For example, the way that Jesus and his disciples remained a seperate group from John the Baptist and his disciples. (Why didn't John just tell all his followers to become disciples of Jesus?) Or consider Matthew 13 [10] Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" [11] And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. So some parts of Jesus' message were for the crowds. But some were for the inner core of disciples. Or again Mathew 19, after mentioning his teaching on divorce: [10] The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." [11] But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it." So again some of the things which Jesus taught aren't meant to be for everyone but just for "he who is able to receive this" "only those to whom it is given". Or again, even the fact that we talk about the 12 disciples, and later the 11, and then the 12 again, strongly suggests that a "disciple" isn't the same as the general believer since Jesus had more than 12 people who accepted his teachings and followed him, for example the famous women who were certainly believers but not disciples. > If it were intended that certain laws were only binding on the > original 12 disciples what would be the point of Christ's > teachings? I believe His admonitions were for all to follow > and spread those teachings by word and deed. Well here is another example which should be pretty clear. In Matthew 10 [5] These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, [6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. [9] Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, [10] no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. So the disciples here are basically taking a kind of vow to poverty, they made a special commitment to be wandering preaches without a fixed home. So would you agree that the disciples had extra instructions which weren't binding on everyone. Or are you saying that all Christians are supposed to make this kind of vow of poverty? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Clarification (I hope)
Dear Gilberto, Forgive me, I neglected to include your comment; the perplexing one ... : ) in my last post and which I offered some Bibical verses in response. This was your comment: <> For me personally, the Gospels made more sense when I realized that the disciples were kind of like sufis. Not everybody is supposed to be a disciple necessary. The disciples of Jesus were a special group with a more specialized set of requirements. Some teachings were for them, and other teachings were for the general crowd. Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. So Jesus wasn't abolishing the laws in the Torah about divorce, he was giving more specific instructions to his disciples. <> Also, in different post there was this question... Some time ago you wrote: <> And I thought there was a passage actually in the writings saying that previous religions (at least Islam) was intended to be universal but the blamed the behavior of the followers.<> Perhaps this is what you were thinking of: Not for a moment hath His grace been withheld, nor have the showers of His loving-kindness ceased to rain upon mankind. Consequently, such behavior can be attributed to naught save the petty-mindedness of such souls as tread the valley of arrogance and pride, are lost in the wilds of remoteness, walk in the ways of their idle fancy, and follow the dictates of the leaders of their faith. Their chief concern is mere opposition; their sole desire is to ignore the truth. Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge, gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 18-19) Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
