RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not
"But if you are willing to do that, then you would be rejecting what the
Bahai faith says about the Quran and it would give the impression that you
are just another Western Orientalist Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai."
Dear Gilberto,
I myself haven't looked into this Yemenite discoveries enough to have a
definite opinion about them, but I would not reject the application of
higher criticism to the Qur'an or even our own scriptures as a matter of
principle. Nor do I think it is necessary to take the letters written on the
Guardian's behalf as meaning there are no mistakes whatsoever in the text of
the Qur'an as we have it today. Let the evidence stand on its own without
resort to authority or to labeling certain approaches as automatically
Islamophobic.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
"That's still a huge amount of growth to occur before having a New
Testament."
Dear Gilberto,
It would have been comparable to the growth of Manicheanism whose founder I
would presume you would not recognize as true prophet.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not
I'm sorry but I don't think you are appreciating fully what you said before.
Peace
Gilberto
On 10/12/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> You can go that route and engage in "higher criticism" of Islamic sources
> and if you do I guess I can respect your curiosity or your desire to
> understand certain aspects of history. But if you are willing to do that,
> then you would be rejecting what the Bahai faith says about the Quran and it
> would give the impression that you are just another Western Orientalist
> Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai.
>
> Peace
>
> Gilberto
>
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> I make no difference between the validity of the Gospel and the validity of
> the Qur'an and the validity of the Iqan or Aqdas, or the Qayyum'l Asma.
>
> These are the BOOK. Each is sufficient to the will of God at the time of
> that particular Apostle of God.
>
> This does not mean that they do not have literary histories however. We know
> that Baha`u'llah was moved to write verses He later chose to destroy rather
> than disseminate because He thought that the will of God.
>
> Regards,
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot
> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must
> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.
> Arnold J. Toynbee
>
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are
> subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send
> subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe:
> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -
> mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -
> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News -
> news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public -
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public -
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New
> Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
--
"There are no poets"
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You can go that route and engage in "higher criticism" of Islamic sources and if you do I guess I can respect your curiosity or your desire to understand certain aspects of history. But if you are willing to do that, then you would be rejecting what the Bahai faith says about the Quran and it would give the impression that you are just another Western Orientalist Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai.
Peace
Gilberto
Dear Gilberto,
I make no difference between the validity of the Gospel and the validity of the Qur'an and the validity of the Iqan or Aqdas, or the Qayyum'l Asma.
These are the BOOK. Each is sufficient to the will of God at the time of that particular Apostle of God.
This does not mean that they do not have literary histories however. We know that Baha`u'llah was moved to write verses He later chose to destroy rather than disseminate because He thought that the will of God.
Regards,
Scott
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Max Jasper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The whole NT contains ONLY 2 social laws: divorce, Sabbath.
That seems like a huge exageration. Jesus and the disciples were
Jewish and observance of the Torah was assumed by them.
(And refered to explicitly in a number of places)
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto:
> > What is the contradiction? <
Hajir:
> The contradiction to me is, why should Baha'u'llah be discounted as a
> revealer of a New Book (i.e. Restating the essentials truths of the Qur'an
> in a fresh way) when Prophet Muhammad did this exact thing to the People of
> the Book? Didn't you and I already establish that the Teachings of the
> Gospel were a guide for the people living before the appearance of Muhammad,
> or did I lose you again?
>
> > [41.43] Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles
> > before you [...]
>
>
> I agree with the above quoted Verse of the Qur'an. I think it reinforces
> the legitimacy of Baha'u'llah as the New Revealer to restate and renew the
> words to the apostles of old.
>
>
Gilberto:
If you really believe that Bahaullah is only restating the truths of
the Quran then I would say that I'm happy just sticking to the Quran
and the Islamic dispensation. I don't lose anything that way.
Gilberto:
> > God doesn't need my permission for anything. God can do what he likes.
> If he wants to send another prophet, he can and I don't have anything
> to say about it. But from a Muslim perspective, God said that Muhammad
> was the last prophet. And it is not my place to say that he has to
> send another prophet after him. <
> How are you so certain that you are interpreting what God really said in the
> Qur'an correctly?
How is anyone certain? How are you certain?
> Isn't misinterpretation just as important a distortion of
> the Book of God as the existence of false words into the Gospel? Afterall,
> the people who followed the Gospel before the coming of the Qur'an were able
> to discern Truth from falsehood, or else they would not have been the People
> of the Book.
>
Sure, and I think I have a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes
to how cocky I am willing to be about my own beliefs. I'm very open to
the possibility that I am totally wrong. I am also very open to the
possibility that you are totally wrong.
The question is why should I believe one interpretation instead of
another? Why would the Bahai interpretation be more credible than the
orthodox Muslim interpretation?
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sequence [was a Couple of Questions]
Hajir:
> Yet, what I cannot understand is what would happen if we turned the clocks
> back to the time before the prophethood of Muhammad, the time to which
> Muhammad refers in His call to the followers of the Gospel as "The People
of
> the Book".
Hajir:
> How can they be the People of the Book
> if their Book was really not among
> them? How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't
> exist, by
> a God who is Just?
My response to that is that you are being a little to absolutist. I
don't think the question is so cut-and-dried. I wouldn't say that the
Gospel is simplistically NOT among the Christians. But is imperfectly
among them. The New Testament contains some words and teachings which
probably did come from Jesus (as). But it also contains things which
come from Paul. And it also contains things attributed to James,
Peter, John, Matthew, and others.
So I would say that enough of the gist, enough of the essence is there
that it would be wrong to say that the Gospel is gone. But at the same
time, there is also enough other stuff, that we shouldn't take all of
it as inspired.
One analogy might be to think about a movie... say... Gone With the
Wind. If you go to a really nice fancy movie theatre and see "Gone
with the wind" on a big screen you can say "I saw the movie Gone with
the wind"
If you see the movie at home edited for TV, interrupted by
commercials, you can say "I saw Gone with the Wind"
If you saw a bad video tape recording of Gone With the Wind on
television with commercials and a little static, you can still say "I
saw Gone With the Wind".
Even if you saw a bad bootleg version of the movie, with static, and
the outline of someone's head blocking the picture every once in a
while, you could still probably say "I saw Gone with the Wind"
although your experience will be very different in each of these
different cases.
So Christians have the Gospel with them, but I would still wouldn't
take the entire New Testament as the Gospel revealed to Jesus.
Peace
Gilberto
Dear Gilberto
I find the above analogy and example fascinating:
You have a powerful way of providing an example here
http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg05762.html
And your conversation with Hajir and Scott is fascinating.
Muhammad revealed a Book which
> is NOT a subset of the existing Gospel. The Qur'an is really a NEW BOOK,
it
> is not the Torah, and it is not the Gospel.
So what does this mean?
[41.43] Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles
before you [...]
Hajir:
> Why is it that you grant God the permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to the
> Prophet Muhammad, but not grant Him permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to
> Baha'u'llah?
Gilberto:
God doesn't need my permission for anything. God can do what he likes.
If he wants to send another prophet, he can and I don't have anything
to say about it. But from a Muslim perspective, God said that Muhammad
was the last prophet. And it is not my place to say that he has to
send another prophet after him.
Peace
Gilberto
[kf]
All I would say lest we get stuck at the road block is that the attribute
firstness and lastness could have been interpreted in a [non-road-blocking !
Manner]
The Holy Prophet called [according to that Mighty Compilation Book of Hadith
[Hadith Moslem] His Mosque the ***LAST MOSQUE**
http://www.sabawoon.com/library/Hadith/muslim/007a_smt.html
Book 7, Number 3211:
Abdullah b. Ibrahim said to us: I bear witness to the fact that I heard Abu
Huraira (God be pleased with him) say that God's Messenger (may peace be
upon him) said: I am the last of the Apostles and my mosque is the last of
the mosques.
FURTHER
There is a wonderful Book of Prayers and excerpts from the Holy Qur'an
published in India.
This book is often given as a work of charity for people who need prayers.
It is called
The Selected 16 Quranic-Suras
Solah Sura-Shareef
By
Sehbanul-Hind Maulana Ahmed Saeed Dehlavi
[Parts I and II] translated by AS Siddiquee MA {Aligarh]
Sacred International
Therein on page 298 there is a listing of the Names of the Prophet of God
Muhammad.
These Names [asmaa muqaddaseh ye Nabi]=Holy Names of the Prophet
on page 298 include
**Mutawas.s.it. [which means Mediator or Intermediary
**Awwal, Aakhir** the FIRST AND THE LAST
Taa Seen, H.aa.Meem.**
I thought we could consider how precious this juxtaposition of Names is
Ie Awwal =the First
Aakhir=the Last
In my own mind this reading and this finding resonated with the Passage of
the Sacred Iqan:
Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have
said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad our last, Muhammad our all."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 153)
Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is
applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;"
inasmuch as both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and
the same Faith.
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles before
> the Gospels were written. The religious authorities of the day were
> threatened by Christ, before the Gospels were written. etc.
Hajir:
> I'm not sure if this is significant. The Qur'an wasn't compiled when the
> Prophet Muhammad gained popularity either, no?
>
I would say no. The larger point is this. I was arguing that early
Christianity was very diverse. There were deep theological
disagreements, and Paul's faction was only one of them. Some of those
non-Pauline factions are very close to Islamic expectations (believed
Christ was human not divine, rejected the crucifixion, maintained
dietary code, etc.) So I would tend to believe that one of those other
groups was the authentic branch but unfortunately the Pauline branch
grew and became more successful.
Susan argued that the branch which grew was the Pauline branch and
that this is some indication of divine favor or charisma (correct me
if I'm mischaracterizing your position).
And my point was that Christianity was growing, even before there was
a New Testament, because Jesus was just an amazing person. And that
the growth of Christianity shouldn't be taken as an approval of the
New Testament.
The point about Muhammad doesn't seem to be relevant in the sense that
Sunnis and Shias all agree about the Quran.
It's not like there is a Secret Quran which says "Seal of the prophets
doesn't mean last" or says that "Muhammad is actually God". However
there are Gospels which say that Jesus was not divine or that Jesus
was not crucified.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/12/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "I don't think that is true. Christianity was still a significant
> movement with martyrs and devoted followers willing to travel the
> world to spread the message even before the New Testament was
> canonized. The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles before
> the Gospels were written."
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> The connection between the spread of Christianity in those early days and
> how is spread after most of the NT canon had been agreed on is rather
> tenuous. At the time of Constantine's conversion only 5% of the empire was
> Christianized.
That's still a huge amount of growth to occur before having a New Testament.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not
You can go that route and engage in "higher criticism" of Islamic sources and if you do I guess I can respect your curiosity or your desire to understand certain aspects of history. But if you are willing to do that, then you would be rejecting what the Bahai faith says about the Quran and it would give the impression that you are just another Western Orientalist Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai.
Peace
Gilberto
On 10/12/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Friends,
We are all familiar with the provenance* of the New Testament and the Christian Bible. We know that the Bible was assembled of books approved by committee overseen by individuals who had axes to grind against one another. The Nicaean Council created the Bible out of fragments and letters and documents written by those who they could not identify for certain.
The Catholic Bible contains the Apocrypha, there are Gospels left out (Thomas, Peter, Mary Magdalen, etc) The Bible was created with a literary history, a social history and even a political history. Let us for the moment set aside its spiritual history, we know that Muhammed praised the Gospel as "The Book", Baha`u'llah assures that God protects His own words.
For centuries Islam has been able to hold up the Qur'an and say: Behold! Perfectly recorded the word of God through the Lips of the Apostle, perfect in rectitude! ANd there has been none to effectively say no.
But is this the case? Does the Qur'an also possess a literary, social and perhaps even a political history that mars its perfection?
In the 1970's a packet of very old parchment was found in the eaves of the oldest mosque in Yemen** during its refurbishing. The Yemeni government took extreme steps to preserve the documentary grave (It is a custom in Islam to bury ragged and worn Qur'ans in a grave).
The earliest Qur'anic fragments date to between 700 and 750 AD. The script is a very old form of Arabic without diacriticals and matches the age of the documents. Under the words of these oldest Qur'anic verse, visible in ultraviolet light, are even older verses scrubbed from the parchmetn so it could be re-used.
Frankly it is not a perfect copy of Uthman's authorized Qur'an. There are verses here different from what Islam has considered to be the Qur'an for centuries. There are whole sections of Surahs present there that are not even recorded in Uthman's authorized version.
Suddenly the Qur'an has a literary history - there are older, substantively different versions of what we know today as the Qur'an. This creates a social history, because for the time that this version of the Qur'an was the ONLY Qur'an in that society interpretations must have been different. Perhaps there is even a political history now made evident.
What does this mean to Islam? How many new factions will chip off the Sunni and Shi'ih megaliths over the next fifty or a hundred years as the reverberations of the study of these old documents play out. Surely it will take that long to become evident. The Qumran Scrolls required decades and decades of carefuly evaluation before those new bits of data could start to become digested.
Regards,
Scott
*Main Entry: prov·e·nance Pronunciation: 'präv-n&n(t)s, 'prä-v&-"nän(t)sFunction: nounEtymology: French, from provenir
to come forth, originate, from Latin provenire, from pro- forth + venire to come -- more at
PRO-, COME1 :
ORIGIN, SOURCE2 : the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature
**
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank
Questions lead to questions more often than not
Friends,
We are all familiar with the provenance* of the New Testament and the Christian Bible. We know that the Bible was assembled of books approved by committee overseen by individuals who had axes to grind against one another. The Nicaean Council created the Bible out of fragments and letters and documents written by those who they could not identify for certain.
The Catholic Bible contains the Apocrypha, there are Gospels left out (Thomas, Peter, Mary Magdalen, etc) The Bible was created with a literary history, a social history and even a political history. Let us for the moment set aside its spiritual history, we know that Muhammed praised the Gospel as "The Book", Baha`u'llah assures that God protects His own words.
For centuries Islam has been able to hold up the Qur'an and say: Behold! Perfectly recorded the word of God through the Lips of the Apostle, perfect in rectitude! ANd there has been none to effectively say no.
But is this the case? Does the Qur'an also possess a literary, social and perhaps even a political history that mars its perfection?
In the 1970's a packet of very old parchment was found in the eaves of the oldest mosque in Yemen** during its refurbishing. The Yemeni government took extreme steps to preserve the documentary grave (It is a custom in Islam to bury ragged and worn Qur'ans in a grave).
The earliest Qur'anic fragments date to between 700 and 750 AD. The script is a very old form of Arabic without diacriticals and matches the age of the documents. Under the words of these oldest Qur'anic verse, visible in ultraviolet light, are even older verses scrubbed from the parchmetn so it could be re-used.
Frankly it is not a perfect copy of Uthman's authorized Qur'an. There are verses here different from what Islam has considered to be the Qur'an for centuries. There are whole sections of Surahs present there that are not even recorded in Uthman's authorized version.
Suddenly the Qur'an has a literary history - there are older, substantively different versions of what we know today as the Qur'an. This creates a social history, because for the time that this version of the Qur'an was the ONLY Qur'an in that society interpretations must have been different. Perhaps there is even a political history now made evident.
What does this mean to Islam? How many new factions will chip off the Sunni and Shi'ih megaliths over the next fifty or a hundred years as the reverberations of the study of these old documents play out. Surely it will take that long to become evident. The Qumran Scrolls required decades and decades of carefuly evaluation before those new bits of data could start to become digested.
Regards,
Scott
*Main Entry: prov·e·nance Pronunciation: 'präv-n&n(t)s, 'prä-v&-"nän(t)sFunction: nounEtymology: French, from provenir to come forth, originate, from Latin provenire, from pro- forth + venire to come -- more at PRO-, COME1 : ORIGIN, SOURCE2 : the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature
**
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Dear Max,
Can you show us something from the NT itself which indicates, this? Mark
already indicated this is a Baha'i position. You don't have to prove that.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
'The disciples might accept Jesus'
abrogation of the law of the Sabbath and his prohibition of
divorce, but they could not accept the principle on which
these changes depended. 'They could not apply it to other
parts of the Mosaic tradition. When Jesus was no longer with
them in the flesh to give definite directions and rulings,
their inclination was to hold fast to an old belief unless he
had explicitly rejected it. In spite of such general remarks
of Jesus as his statement that new wine would need new
bottles, and a more specific remark such as that in Mark 7:18
(Luke 11:41) that what a man ate did not defile him, but what
he thought ('This he said, making all meats clean'), Peter and
others with him sincerely maintained that the observance of
circumcision and of the distinction between clean and unclean
meats was still called for under the Christian law. Nor even
when with difficulty he changed his mind on this point and
adopted a larger opinion, did he find it easy
135
at first to adhere, under stress, to his new point of view.
(Gal. 2.)
(George Townshend, The Heart of the Gospel, p. 134)
|However,
|because there is no clear abrogation, Christians, to this day,
|differ on the issue. Some (e.g., Seventh Day Adventism, Church
|of God Seventh Day, the Assemblies of Yahweh/Bethel,
|Pennsylvania, and the traditional Armstrongite groups)
|continue to follow Shabbos.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Dear Max,
That's exactly Mark's point. This is Abdu'l-Baha's take on what Jesus
taught, not the NT's.
warmest, Susan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Max Jasper
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:05 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: RE: A couple of questions
Thus it was that Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 93)
|Divorce is not prohibited in the NT. Paul allowed it in cases
|of adultery. (The idea that Christ forbade divorce is a
|Baha'i, not a NT, teaching.)
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Thus, in the entire New Testament, there appeareth naught but the
prohibition of divorce and the allusion to the abrogation of the Sabbath
(The Universal House of Justice, 2001 Apr 18, Clarification of
Various Issues Raised by Provisional Translations, p. 2)
|Divorce is not prohibited in the NT. Paul allowed it in cases
|
|Similarly, Shabbos (the Jewish Sabbath) is not clearly
|abrogated in the NT. At best, one can say it is abrogated by
|
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Thus it was that Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 93)
|Divorce is not prohibited in the NT. Paul allowed it in cases
|of adultery. (The idea that Christ forbade divorce is a
|Baha'i, not a NT, teaching.)
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
The cause of Christ was wholly spiritual. He changed nothing save the
Sabbath day, certain laws of conduct and the law of divorce.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 150)
|
|Divorce is not prohibited in the NT. Paul allowed it in cases
|
|Similarly, Shabbos (the Jewish Sabbath) is not clearly
|
|As to social laws, much would depend on one's definition. (You
|
|Nonetheless, there are definitely more than two laws mentioned
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
"I don't think that is true. Christianity was still a significant
movement with martyrs and devoted followers willing to travel the
world to spread the message even before the New Testament was
canonized. The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles before
the Gospels were written."
Dear Gilberto,
The connection between the spread of Christianity in those early days and
how is spread after most of the NT canon had been agreed on is rather
tenuous. At the time of Constantine's conversion only 5% of the empire was
Christianized.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Max,
At 10:26 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote:
>>The whole NT contains ONLY 2 social laws: divorce, Sabbath. The rest of it
>>are all spiritual laws and teachings which are common in all revelations.<<
Divorce is not prohibited in the NT. Paul allowed it in cases of adultery. (The
idea that Christ forbade divorce is a Baha'i, not a NT, teaching.)
Similarly, Shabbos (the Jewish Sabbath) is not clearly abrogated in the NT. At
best, one can say it is abrogated by implication, i.e., since there is no
indication that all Christians commemorated it (or were instructed to).
However, because there is no clear abrogation, Christians, to this day, differ
on the issue. Some (e.g., Seventh Day Adventism, Church of God Seventh Day, the
Assemblies of Yahweh/Bethel, Pennsylvania, and the traditional Armstrongite
groups) continue to follow Shabbos.
As to social laws, much would depend on one's definition. (You also seem to be
referring to the Baha'i teaching on Jesus bringing only two laws, not to the NT
literature.) For instance, how would one distinguish between a law, an
ordinance, and a provision?
Nonetheless, there are definitely more than two laws mentioned in the NT. For
example, since Jesus reportedly made salvation dependent on serving the poor,
would that not, in some sense, be a law?
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
The whole NT contains ONLY 2 social laws: divorce, Sabbath. The rest of it
are all spiritual laws and teachings which are common in all revelations.
It was so because Christ Dispensation was concentrated on building
character
of the individual.
Muhammad's Dispensation was destined to be nation builder and needed
plenty
social laws and regulation, and hence Qur'an contains many necessary laws
for nation building.
After nation building has completed then it is time to build ..., and
this is done during Baha'I Dispensation.
|I'm not sure subset is the right term. There might be things
|in the original Gospel which are not contained in the New
|Testament (but which might be contained in other sources like
|the Gospel of Thomas or Q or other non-canonical scriptures).
|But basically yes.
|
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately
notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this
e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
> What is the contradiction? <
The contradiction to me is, why should Baha'u'llah be discounted as a revealer of a New Book (i.e. Restating the essentials truths of the Qur'an in a fresh way) when Prophet Muhammad did this exact thing to the People of the Book? Didn't you and I already establish that the Teachings of the Gospel were a guide for the people living before the appearance of Muhammad, or did I lose you again?
> [41.43] Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles> before you [...]
I agree with the above quoted Verse of the Qur'an. I think it reinforces the legitimacy of Baha'u'llah as the New Revealer to restate and renew the words to the apostles of old.
> God doesn't need my permission for anything. God can do what he likes.If he wants to send another prophet, he can and I don't have anythingto say about it. But from a Muslim perspective, God said that Muhammadwas the last prophet. And it is not my place to say that he has tosend another prophet after him. <
How are you so certain that you are interpreting what God really said in the Qur'an correctly? Isn't misinterpretation just as important a distortion of the Book of God as the existence of false words into the Gospel? Afterall, the people who followed the Gospel before the coming of the Qur'an were able to discern Truth from falsehood, or else they would not have been the People of the Book.
Regards, Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
> The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles beforethe Gospels were written. The religious authorities of the day werethreatened by Christ, before the Gospels were written. etc.<
I'm not sure if this is significant. The Qur'an wasn't compiled when the Prophet Muhammad gained popularity either, no?
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Basically, judging from the Bible, the Quran and history. Jesus'
> impact on the world is undeniable. It makes sense that a person of his
> stature had some kind of prophetic charisma. The question is how to
> understand his mission."
> Dear Gilberto,
> The 'impact on the world' was made by virtue of the Gospel Christians
> currently possess. They would have had no access to His original charisma
> apart from it.
I don't think that is true. Christianity was still a significant
movement with martyrs and devoted followers willing to travel the
world to spread the message even before the New Testament was
canonized. The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles before
the Gospels were written. The religious authorities of the day were
threatened by Christ, before the Gospels were written. etc.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I wouldn't say that the Gospel is simplistically NOT among the Christians.
> But is imperfectly
> among them. The New Testament contains some words and teachings which
> probably did come from Jesus (as). But it also contains things which
> come from Paul. And it also contains things attributed to James,
> Peter, John, Matthew, and others.
> (1) Based on your own admission above, the guidance contained within the
> Gospel, which based on your own statement is a subset of the existing Gospel
> (i.e. take out the "commercials breaks of untruth" interspersed in between)
> was legitimate enough of a guidance to the people for the Qur'an to call
> those people who followed it the "People of the Book".
I'm not sure subset is the right term. There might be things in the
original Gospel which are not contained in the New Testament (but
which might be contained in other sources like the Gospel of Thomas or
Q or other non-canonical scriptures). But basically yes.
> (2) You also state that there is no real need for Baha'u'llah because the
> Book of God Qur'an should be sufficient for all humanity from now until the
> end of time.
> How can point (1) and point (2) both be valid at the same time?
What is the contradiction?
> Muhammad didn't take out the "commercial breaks of untruths" out of the
> existing Gospel to reveal the True Gospel.
I would say that Islam restates the essentials truths in a fresh way.
Muhammad revealed a Book which
> is NOT a subset of the existing Gospel. The Qur'an is really a NEW BOOK, it
> is not the Torah, and it is not the Gospel.
So what does this mean?
[41.43] Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles
before you [...]
Hajir:
> Why is it that you grant God the permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to the
> Prophet Muhammad, but not grant Him permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to
> Baha'u'llah?
Gilberto:
God doesn't need my permission for anything. God can do what he likes.
If he wants to send another prophet, he can and I don't have anything
to say about it. But from a Muslim perspective, God said that Muhammad
was the last prophet. And it is not my place to say that he has to
send another prophet after him.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Why is it that you grant God the permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to the Prophet Muhammad, but not grant Him permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to Baha'u'llah?
Regards,
Hajir
Dear Hajir,
Here we come again to the "Seal of the Prphets" roadblock. Baha`i's see that the road is not blocked, but generally Muslims do not.
Regards,
Scott
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
> I wouldn't say that the Gospel is simplistically NOT among the Christians. But is imperfectlyamong them. The New Testament contains some words and teachings whichprobably did come from Jesus (as). But it also contains things whichcome from Paul. And it also contains things attributed to James,Peter, John, Matthew, and others.
<
(1) Based on your own admission above, the guidance contained within the Gospel, which based on your own statement is a subset of the existing Gospel (i.e. take out the "commercials breaks of untruth" interspersed in between) was legitimate enough of a guidance to the people for the Qur'an to call those people who followed it the "People of the Book".
(2) You also state that there is no real need for Baha'u'llah because the Book of God Qur'an should be sufficient for all humanity from now until the end of time.
How can point (1) and point (2) both be valid at the same time?
Muhammad didn't take out the "commercial breaks of untruths" out of the existing Gospel to reveal the True Gospel. Muhammad revealed a Book which is NOT a subset of the existing Gospel. The Qur'an is really a NEW BOOK, it is not the Torah, and it is not the Gospel.
Why is it that you grant God the permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to the Prophet Muhammad, but not grant Him permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to Baha'u'llah?
Regards,
Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Conversion (was Re: A couple of questions)
Dear Gilberto,
>But there is a switch going on. Roman Catholicism isn't necessarilythe same as "the teachings of Jesus". I was also raised as aChristian. But I would also say that my current beliefs are closer tothe religion of Jesus than what I believed before. But I wouldn'tobject to someone saying I was no longer Christian.<
Tim:
You are certainly right that the Catholic teachings are not
identical with the teachings of Jesus. I did not understand this until
I accepted the Baha'i Faith. I feel the Baha'i Faith has helped me
understand the teachings of Jesus better than I ever did
when I was a Catholic. I am no longer a Christian
in the usual sense of that word, but I have have a stronger,
deeper faith in Jesus as a Baha'i than I ever had as
a Catholic. If others want to say I am not a Christian,
I don't mind; it's not something to argue about.
Tim Nolan
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: A couple of questions
Susan,
At 08:29 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote:
>>They would have had no access to His original charisma apart from it.<<
Max Weber called that the routinization of charisma.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Gilberto,
At 07:14 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote:
>.Over and over again, there have been several Bahais who have pointed to the
>sunni-shia split as a decisive problem which can't be resolved in any way.
>Maybe not all, but certainly many.<<
That surprises me. I must have glossed over those posts.
In Iraq, for instance, Sunnis and Shi'ihs are sometimes members of the same
clan, and clan loyalty is often stronger than sectarian loyalty. They
frequently intermarry.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Firestorm,
At 02:04 AM 10/9/2005, you wrote:
>>now, i can say i am saying "as a Baha'i" i think usa coproations should be
>>let lose to dismember anything resembling national idenityt and interest...or
>>i can say, i am a member of the Baha'i Faith and as a person involved in
>>branding and formations i kinda enjoy the world view ex[ressed in the story
>>"rollerball" as a wonderful future in which the proletariat rule by benefit
>>of their ension checks as part of the path to be travelled to true social
>>justice.<<
As a *Baha'i*, I have no problem with national identity and interest. However,
as a Marxist sociologist, I do have a problem with hegemony and neocolonialism
(whether carried on in the name of universal democratization or something
else).
If a country needs a commodity, such as oil, to "fuel" (pardon the pun) its
economy, and it must, therefore, overthrow other governments in order to obtain
that commodity, I would, honestly, rather see that country fall into economic
ruin than continue on such a path
>>marx and smith, to my dim recall, use relatively similar math in describing
>>the process of getting there.<<
As I see it, the so-called terrorists (whom I would call "counterterrorists"
responding to Western terrorism or imperialism), such as members of the largely
fictive al-Qa'ida, have taken on a similar function to the proletarians Marx
anticipated in a socialist revolution. That does not mean I support what these
Islamists are doing (I definitely do not), but I think I understand, at least
from my revisionist Marxist perspective, their role in the present global
system.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Gilberto,
I think it is because we view society as always advancing. In this latest phase of human development (commenced with the proclamation of Baha'u'llah), the time of conflict and contention has come to an end. We believe that the next stage in the development of our society is globalization (not the Western form of Globalization), or in Baha'u'llah's words, the transformation of the earth, whose inhabitants are currently in constant conflict, into one which is "but one country and mankind its citizens." Baha'u'llah states that the world is in grave danger, and unless and until all the people of the world unite, our peace and security is in jeapardy. Yet, we are optimistic, since Baha'u'llah promised that we will *definitely* achieve unity in what He called "the Most Great Peace", under the shadow of His "New World Order".
So, all conflict, including conflict between Sunnis and Shia, is believed to be a condition that no longer has a place in our world.
Regards,
Hajir
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Over and over again, there have been several Bahais who have pointedto the sunni-shia split as a decisive problem which can't be resolvedin any way. Maybe not all, but certainly many.PeaceGilbertoOn 10/11/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Gilberto,>> At 01:28 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote:> >.I've said this before, but especially given the ways in which Bahais try to reconcile the theological differences between Christians, Muslims and Buddhists and treat them as if they were no big deal, it is INCREDIBLY bizzare that Bahais would see the differences between sunnis and shias as insurmountable.<<>> I think you are over-generalizing about Baha'is. I have almost never known any Baha'is who have regarded the differences between Sunni and Shi'ih as insurmountable.>> As fa!
r as I am
concerned, I always assume difference - whether between individuals, cultures, subcultures, formal organizations, religious categories (Judaism, the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) or religious subcategories. I also do not assume that similar terminology is equivalent to similar meanings or that different terminology corresponds with different meanings.>> Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net> ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham> Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com>> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.>>> __>>> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st> Public -
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu>--"There are no poets"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/rea
RE: A couple of questions
"Basically, judging from the Bible, the Quran and history. Jesus'
impact on the world is undeniable. It makes sense that a person of his
stature had some kind of prophetic charisma. The question is how to
understand his mission."
Dear Gilberto,
The 'impact on the world' was made by virtue of the Gospel Christians
currently possess. They would have had no access to His original charisma
apart from it.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Over and over again, there have been several Bahais who have pointed
to the sunni-shia split as a decisive problem which can't be resolved
in any way. Maybe not all, but certainly many.
Peace
Gilberto
On 10/11/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto,
>
> At 01:28 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote:
> >.I've said this before, but especially given the ways in which Bahais try to
> >reconcile the theological differences between Christians, Muslims and
> >Buddhists and treat them as if they were no big deal, it is INCREDIBLY
> >bizzare that Bahais would see the differences between sunnis and shias as
> >insurmountable.<<
>
> I think you are over-generalizing about Baha'is. I have almost never known
> any Baha'is who have regarded the differences between Sunni and Shi'ih as
> insurmountable.
>
> As far as I am concerned, I always assume difference - whether between
> individuals, cultures, subcultures, formal organizations, religious
> categories (Judaism, the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) or religious
> subcategories. I also do not assume that similar terminology is equivalent to
> similar meanings or that different terminology corresponds with different
> meanings.
>
> Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
> ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
> Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> __
>
>
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
--
"There are no poets"
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions [and sequence] was a Couple of Questions
On 10/11/05, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is forwarded without html as some would like to receive without html
> Gilberto
> But to go back to what you say above, it sounds like you are saying
> People HAVE TO believe in Bahaullah or else they don't really believe
> in Muhammad (saaws) or Jesus (as) or Moses (as). And that sounds just
> like the fundamentalist approach.
Khazeh:
> In relation to your last point:
> People do not HAVE TO BELIEVE.
> Belief, certainty, certitude is in the Hand of God.
> The Truth of the Holy Qur'an 2:256 holds today as it did 1424 lunar years
> ago
> Let there be no compulsion in religion [Yusuf Ali]
> Let there be no violence in religion. [Sale]
> La ikraha fee alddeeni
Sure of course. But I think you are misinterpreting or changing the
meaning of what I intended. I'm not saying that Bahais are going to
have a violent inquisition against non-Bahais (at least that's not my
point here). And neither do most fundamentalist Christians living in
the West plan to violently convert people by force either. But many
Fundamentalist Christians teach that unless you accept Jesus you are
going to hell. And by the same token, I have the impression that many
Bahais believe that in this day and age a person must accept Bahaullah
or else face dire spiritual consequences.
That's the similarity I had in mind and that's as far as I intended
for it to go.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
> > Using your own logic, Baha'is would be confident that they have a better> > understanding of the teaching of Muhammad than Muslims themselves do.>No. Not at all. What you might be able to say is that Bahais can be>more confident that they have a better understanding of what Bahaullah>taught than Muslims have of what Muhammad taught.You're right Gilberto. I misread your previous message.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Muslims have the Quran (which was spoken by Muhammad) and have volumes of
> hadith (which are an extensive detailed record of what Muhammad said and did
> on
> different occasions). So Muslims have more extensive, more direct
> information about what Muhammad said and did and taught than
> Christians have about what Jesus said, and did, and taught.
>
> And so Muslims can be more confident that Islam represents Muhammad's
> teachings than Christians can be that "Christianity" represents Jesus'
> teachings.<
>
> Before I respond, let me be clear that I would like Baha'is on this list to
> speak up if the content of my emails have traces of contention and
> argumentation. Since this is categorically forbidden by Baha'u'llah, it
> would not be right to argue FOR Baha'u'llah in a manner that is really
> against the spirit of Baha'u'llah.
>
> Now, to our friend Gilberto's comment above, from whom I'm learning a lot:
>
> Do you know that Baha'u'llah revealed 16,000 Tablets and Books over the
> course of His ministry?
I've heard things along these lines before.
[other facts ommitted]
> So if extensiveness of the Qur'an is a
> criteria, then the authority of the
> Revelation of Baha'u'llah is
> unquestionable.
You have to be careful about what fact proves what claim.
> I am only saying this in response to your comparison of the extensiveness of
> the words of Muhammad versus the words of Jesus.
> Using your own logic, Baha'is would be confident that they have a better
> understanding of the teaching of Muhammad than Muslims themselves do.
No. Not at all. What you might be able to say is that Bahais can be
more confident that they have a better understanding of what Bahaullah
taught than Muslims have of what Muhammad taught.
And that might actually be true. But that doesn't make Bahaullah correct.
I was only trying to respond to the earlier claim.
Muslims can claim to have a good understanding of what Muhammad
taught. We have good deal of access to his words. More direct than
Christians do.
So then when I look back at the New Testament and read about early
Christianity it seems very plausible to me that the authentic form of
Christianity is one which was actually very similar to Islam in
several respects.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G:
> No, but I would say the accuracy and
> faithfulness of the message has
> been significantly compromised.
Hajir:
> So on what basis do you accept the
> validity of Jesus as a prophet of God?
Basically, judging from the Bible, the Quran and history. Jesus'
impact on the world is undeniable. It makes sense that a person of his
stature had some kind of prophetic charisma. The question is how to
understand his mission.
Gilberto:
> > Most religions are positive in terms of the impact they
> make on society. At the same time, most religions are wrong. (teaching
> false or incorrect things )
> How odd, now all religions are wrong
> except correct adherence to the Qur'an?
I don't see why this is contraversial. If one religion is true, then
religions which differ contain untruth. And then the larger question
would be discerning whether or not certain errors are fundamental and
whether certain errors aren't worth arguing about.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Structurization Praxis
Here is the latest addition to my Structurization Praxis paper: Structurization Praxis Constructions in Social Service Parallels can be drawn between the liberation theology of Structurization Praxis and certain concepts in various religious communties. Only four will be mentioned. As expressed in some of the Judaisms, the translation of the Hebrew, and Lurianic Kabbalistic, term, tikkun olam, is repairing the world. Through its reinterpretation by the Jewish Renewal Movement, it has become a clarion call for environmental custodianship and social justice. In Islam, jihad, is Arabic for struggle, not for holy war. Many Islámic moderates have situated its significance in the wrestling with one's nafs, the multiple planes of the lower nature or ego, and in an exertion for human equity and peace. From their standpoint, only jihads which are purposefully defensive, of one's own or another religious community, should be sanctioned on the battlefield. With respect to evangelical Christianity, currently one of the more influential categories of American Christendom, the advocacy by many of its adherents for corporate capitalism, considered in some quarters as oppressive to the poor, and their opposition to socialism, would be difficult to support from the New Testament literature: All who believed were together and held everything in common, and they began selling their property and possessions and distributing the proceeds to everyone, as anyone had need. Every day they continued to gather together by common consent in the temple courts, breaking bread from house to house, sharing their food with glad and humble hearts, praising God and having the good will of all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number every day those who were being saved. -- Acts 2:44-47 (from NET Bible) Jesus also appears to have believed, in contradiction to prevailing evangelical conceptions of salvation without works, that the worthiness of individuals to inherit the Kingdom of God will be judged on evidence of their service to the poor: When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you? " And the king will answer them, "I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me." "Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they too will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?" Then he will answer them, "I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me. And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." -- Matthew 25:31-46 (from NET Bible) Jesus clearly expected His followers to serve the poor, and He judged their worthiness for eternal life, in the Kingdom of His Father, on the basis of their benevolence. "And whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me," (Matthew 10:38, NET Bible), He is quoted as saying. Likewise, the Apostle James asserted that "... faith without works is dead" (James 2:26, NET Bible). While not inconsistent with Paul's condemnation of faithless works as indicative of self-righteousness, James would seem to have considered a workless faith to be a contradiction in terms. Finally, from a Bahá'í standpoint, faith and works, or conforming oneself to God's Will, are inseparable and, for all intents and purposes, identical. Faith implies works, and, according to Shoghi Effendi: Is not faith but another word for implicit obedience, whole-hearted allegiance, uncompromising adherence to that which we believe
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> But in the case of Christianity, there was significant disagreement
> about what the words of Jesus even were... [evidence for disagreement]
> In the case of Islam, even sunnis and shias have the same Quran, and
> the Quran is intact.
> So again, the kinds of problems I'm talking about within Christianity
> are very very different from the relatively minor technical
> differences which might exist among Islamic rulings.
> Gilberto, I think this is your most important point, and it is a very well
> thought out point that seems to me to be pretty convincing. And I like how
> you didn't capitalize your S's to point out how minor the differences
> between Shia and Sunnis are...
Thanks.
But I hope one day more Muslims in your
> community will feel this way, and God Willing then we will see a
> transformation in the Muslim society.
Me too. And I think there are some moves in that direction which are evident.
Hajir:
> Yet, what I cannot understand is what would happen if we turned the clocks
> back to the time before the prophethood of Muhammad, the time to which
> Muhammad refers in His call to the followers of the Gospel as "The People of
> the Book".
Hajir:
> How can they be the People of the Book
> if their Book was really not among
> them? How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't
> exist, by
> a God who is Just?
My response to that is that you are being a little to absolutist. I
don't think the question is so cut-and-dried. I wouldn't say that the
Gospel is simplistically NOT among the Christians. But is imperfectly
among them. The New Testament contains some words and teachings which
probably did come from Jesus (as). But it also contains things which
come from Paul. And it also contains things attributed to James,
Peter, John, Matthew, and others.
So I would say that enough of the gist, enough of the essence is there
that it would be wrong to say that the Gospel is gone. But at the same
time, there is also enough other stuff, that we shouldn't take all of
it as inspired.
One analogy might be to think about a movie... say... Gone With the
Wind. If you go to a really nice fancy movie theatre and see "Gone
with the wind" on a big screen you can say "I saw the movie Gone with
the wind"
If you see the movie at home edited for tv, interrupted by
commercials, you can say "I saw Gone with the Wind"
If you saw a bad video tape recording of Gone With the Wind on
television with commercials and a little static, you can still say "I
saw Gone With the Wind".
Even if you saw a bad bootleg version of the movie, with static, and
the outline of someone's head blocking the picture every once in a
while, you could still probably say "I saw Gone with the Wind"
although your experience will be very different in each of these
different cases.
So Christians have the Gospel with them, but I would still wouldn't
take the entire New Testament as the Gospel revealed to Jesus.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
>
But in the case of Christianity, there was significant disagreementabout what the words of Jesus even were... [evidence for disagreement]
In the case of Islam, even sunnis and shias have the same Quran, andthe Quran is intact.
So again, the kinds of problems I'm talking about within Christianityare very very different from the relatively minor technicaldifferences which might exist among Islamic rulings.<
Gilberto, I think this is your most important point, and it is a very well thought out point that seems to me to be pretty convincing. And I like how you didn't capitalize your S's to point out how minor the differences between Shia and Sunnis are... But I hope one day more Muslims in your community will feel this way, and God Willing then we will see a transformation in the Muslim society.
Yet, what I cannot understand is what would happen if we turned the clocks back to the time before the prophethood of Muhammad, the time to which Muhammad refers in His call to the followers of the Gospel as "The People of the Book".
How can they be the People of the Book if their Book was really not among them?
How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't exist, by a God who is Just? Since the time of the birth of the human race, God sent prophets to the people, and each Messenger was sent with a Book, according to the Glorious Qur'an. How is it that God's Book was continually lost? Are we humans that forgetful? What makes the Muslims of Arabia so much different from all the other peoples of the world that they were the only exception to this throughout all of history?
May God's breeze continue to blow over us, for His guidance is never ending.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Questions [and sequence] was a Couple of Questions
This is forwarded without html as some would like to receive without html Gilberto But to go back to what you say above, it sounds like you are sayingPeople HAVE TO believe in Bahaullah or else they don't really believein Muhammad (saaws) or Jesus (as) or Moses (as). And that sounds justlike the fundamentalist approach. Peace Gilbertohttp://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg05748.html Dearest GilbertoThere is probably no one on this list who asks more wonderfully thought provoking questions as you. I think a lot and a great deal about your questions and, in a sense, may your questions never end. In relation to your last point:People do not HAVE TO BELIEVE.Belief, certainty, certitude is in the Hand of God.The Truth of the Holy Qur’an 2:256 holds today as it did 1424 lunar years agoLet there be no compulsion in religion [Yusuf Ali]Let there be no violence in religion. [Sale]La ikraha fee alddeeniBut what can be presented is that there is a sequence, a progression a gradually unfolding disclosure of the Will of God [and that this sequence, this concatenation, this progressive disclosure did not end 1424 years ago. For the following reasons: some based on “reason” and rationality some based on the verses of the Sacred Scriptures. Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and passed away in 1107 A.H. [ie 153 years before the exalted Bab. The Imam Ja’far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning of the Holy Qur’an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave] Sura 18:109 109. Qul law kana albahru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan YUSUFALI: Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid." PICKTHAL: Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help. SHAKIR: Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add. The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse: The Imam S.aadiq replied: [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i’u abadan] In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). Page 496 ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** So if Baha’u’llah has brought the Word of God one would be invited to consider that [without compulsion or coercion] Then there is the verb [QAFFAYNAA] which means sequence And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him [Yusuf ‘Ali] 2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers waqaffayna min baAAdihi bialrrusuli Then We sent, following in their footsteps, Our Messengers;[57:27] If something has the essential character of sequence and succession and progression why would that essential condition be lost? This does not require coercion just an offering a presentation an epistemological and revelatory perspective. **Such has been the practice approved of God already in the past: no change wilt thou find in the practice approved of God.** 48:23 Sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat min qablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan This essential character is exemplified as well here more circumstantially: O mankind! …consider that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; [22:5] Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! 23:14 Further a beauty of seeing this essence, this reconciling, this oneness is that all the Past Revelations are included. The Greatest Name [as Bahā’-Allāh] should be found upon the lips in the first awakening moment of early dawn. It should be fed upon by constant use in daily invocation
Questions [and sequence] was a Couple of Questions]
Gilberto But to go back to what you say above, it sounds like you are sayingPeople HAVE TO believe in Bahaullah or else they don't really believein Muhammad (saaws) or Jesus (as) or Moses (as). And that sounds justlike the fundamentalist approach. Peace Gilbertohttp://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg05748.html Dearest GilbertoThere is probably no one on this list who asks more wonderfully thought provoking questions as you. I think a lot and a great deal about your questions and, in a sense, may your questions never end. In relation to your last point:People do not HAVE TO BELIEVE.Belief, certainty, certitude is in the Hand of God.The Truth of the Holy Qur’an 2:256 holds today as it did 1424 lunar years agoLet there be no compulsion in religion [Yusuf Ali]Let there be no violence in religion. [Sale]La ikraha fee alddeeniBut what can be presented is that there is a sequence, a progression a gradually unfolding disclosure of the Will of God [and that this sequence, this concatenation, this progressive disclosure did not end 1424 years ago. For the following reasons: some based on “reason” and rationality some based on the verses of the Sacred Scriptures. Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and passed away in 1107 A.H. [ie 153 years before the exalted Bab. The Imam Ja’far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning of the Holy Qur’an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave] Sura 18:109 109. Qul law kana albahru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan YUSUFALI: Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid." PICKTHAL: Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help. SHAKIR: Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add. The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse: The Imam S.aadiq replied: [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i’u abadan] In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). Page 496 ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** So if Baha’u’llah has brought the Word of God one would be invited to consider that [without compulsion or coercion] Then there is the verb [QAFFAYNAA] which means sequence And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him [Yusuf ‘Ali] 2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers waqaffayna min baAAdihi bialrrusuli Then We sent, following in their footsteps, Our Messengers;[57:27] If something has the essential character of sequence and succession and progression why would that essential condition be lost? This does not require coercion just an offering a presentation an epistemological and revelatory perspective. **Such has been the practice approved of God already in the past: no change wilt thou find in the practice approved of God.** 48:23 Sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat min qablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan This essential character is exemplified as well here more circumstantially: O mankind! …consider that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; [22:5] Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! 23:14 Further a beauty of seeing this essence, this reconciling, this oneness is that all the Past Revelations are included. The Greatest Name [as Bahā’-Allāh] should be found upon the lips in the first awakening moment of early dawn. It should be fed upon by constant use in daily invocations, in trouble, under opposition, and should be the last word breathed when t
Re: A couple of questions
> Muslims have the Quran (which was spoken by Muhammad) and have volumes of hadith (which are an extensive detailed record of what Muhammad said and did ondifferent occasions). So Muslims have more extensive, more directinformation about what Muhammad said and did and taught thanChristians have about what Jesus said, and did, and taught.And so Muslims can be more confident that Islam represents Muhammad'steachings than Christians can be that "Christianity" represents Jesus'teachings.<
Before I respond, let me be clear that I would like Baha'is on this list to speak up if the content of my emails have traces of contention and argumentation. Since this is categorically forbidden by Baha'u'llah, it would not be right to argue FOR Baha'u'llah in a manner that is really against the spirit of Baha'u'llah.
Now, to our friend Gilberto's comment above, from whom I'm learning a lot:
Do you know that Baha'u'llah revealed 16,000 Tablets and Books over the course of His ministry? So, the Book of God in this dispensation is from 16,000 - 48,000 pages long, if on average each Tablet is 1-3 pages long. A more frequently encountered statement is that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is more than 100 volumes, each volume at about 400-1000 pages, or about 40,000-100,000 pages in total. And this excludes the interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, who were so designated by the Pen itself.
So if extensiveness of the Qur'an is a criteria, then the authority of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is unquestionable.
I am only saying this in response to your comparison of the extensiveness of the words of Muhammad versus the words of Jesus.
Using your own logic, Baha'is would be confident that they have a better understanding of the teaching of Muhammad than Muslims themselves do.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Gilberto,
At 01:28 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote:
>.I've said this before, but especially given the ways in which Bahais try to
>reconcile the theological differences between Christians, Muslims and
>Buddhists and treat them as if they were no big deal, it is INCREDIBLY bizzare
>that Bahais would see the differences between sunnis and shias as
>insurmountable.<<
I think you are over-generalizing about Baha'is. I have almost never known any
Baha'is who have regarded the differences between Sunni and Shi'ih as
insurmountable.
As far as I am concerned, I always assume difference - whether between
individuals, cultures, subcultures, formal organizations, religious categories
(Judaism, the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) or religious subcategories.
I also do not assume that similar terminology is equivalent to similar meanings
or that different terminology corresponds with different meanings.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
G: > No, but I would say the accuracy and faithfulness of the message has been significantly compromised. <
So on what basis do you accept the validity of Jesus as a prophet of God?
> Most religions are positive in terms of the impact theymake on society. At the same time, most religions are wrong. (teachingfalse or incorrect things )
<
How odd, now all religions are wrong except correct adherence to the Qur'an? So were people destined to be wrong before the Qur'an was revealed?
On the other hand, I would say that NONE of these religions are WRONG. They were, each one of them, RIGHT for their particular time. The only fair and just analysis would be, in my view, to say that in the time of Jesus, a perfect record, perfect transmission of accurate words and life of Jesus were not necessary for the spiritual salvation of humankind. Therefore, the record of the Gospel was established by God for the salvation of humankind until such a time that humankind grew to such a state of spiritual maturity that a perfect record of the life and teachings of the Prophet were critical for the well-being of humankind. This became evident when the Book of the Gospel led people more toward corruption than it did to Truth. The people didn't reach their low BECAUSE of the Bible. They got there because the people grew above and beyond the potential of the Bible to guide them.
I make the same assessment of Islam. When the 1800's rolled in, society changed in such a way that caused the (1) internal disunity of Islam, and (2) the misinterpretations of the Qur'an made by the Muslim doctors, became a source for the impediment for the continual growth of humankind.
Is there a more fair and just assessment of the people who lived in the dispensation of Jesus and in the dispensation of Muhammad than this?
Regards,
Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gilberto: > > In the case of Christianity, the New Testament actually contains only > a very small set of words attributed to Jesus. Jesus only taught for > about 3 years, partially in secret, and even towards the end of his > ministry his closest disciples still didn't totally understand > everything he was talking about. Paul's words make up more of the > Bible than any other person's, including Jesus. Paul never met Jesus > in the flesh. And actually persecuted the early Christians until he > had his experience on the road to Damascus. He didn't even spend much > time with the disciples who knew Jesus (out of 13 or so years, he > might have spent 2 weeks with a small group of them in Jerusalem). > James had a different interpretation from Paul's and he was Jesus' own > brother and the head of the church in Jerusalem. And we know that > there were many other non-Pauline groups in existence which could also > claim to be authentic. Hajir: >I will assume for the sake of argument that your description above is > historically 100% accurate. Ok. Hajir: So do you propose that the advent of Jesus was > basically useless and was not a guide in any way to the people? Gilberto: No, but I would say the accuracy and faithfulness of the message has been significantly compromised. In contexts where you care about accuracy and faithfulness then this is a problem. In contexts where accuracy and faithfulness are less important, this is no big deal. I think this goes back to how I said Jesus and Muhammad weren't *necessary*. If you look around the world, there are ALOT of different religions out there. And I would say that MOST religions which exist are making a positive impact on the world. They are reminding people to be generally good to one another. Generally kind, generous, patient, honest, compassionate. Whether you are talking about Muslims, Zorastrians, Christians, Samaritans, Jews, New Age, Bahais, Orthodox Bahais, Mandeans, Rastafarians, Nation of Islam, Druzes, whatever... Most religions are positive in terms of the impact they make on society. At the same time, most religions are wrong. (teaching false or incorrect things ) So I'm totally willing to say that good things have come out of Pauline Christianity. And some of those good things are a reflection of Jesus original message. But if we are concerned about accuracy and are asking which form of Christianity is most authentic, I think Paul's version seems highly problematic. Hajir: > Who guided mankind from the death of Jesus until the manifestation > of Muhammad? Do you really think we were left alone by God during this > time? I guess it depends on what kind of guidance you are talking about. For basic moral principles, people have been guided by their conscience. > In the case of Islam, the Quran consists of words which were spoken by > Muhammad (saaws) . And you might not like them, but our knowledge of > the prophet is also supplemented by hadith. Hajir: > I don't think whether or not I like them is the issue. I just meant to address your original comparison. Muslims have the Quran (which was spoken by Muhammad) and have volumes of hadith (which are an extensive detailed record of what Muhammad said and did on different occasions). So Muslims have more extensive, more direct information about what Muhammad said and did and taught than Christians have about what Jesus said, and did, and taught. And so Muslims can be more confident that Islam represents Muhammad's teachings than Christians can be that "Christianity" represents Jesus' teachings. > The issue is, how > realistic is it really that God, who is supposedly infinite, compressed all > His knowledge into one single Book we call the Qur'an? I believe since > God's knowledge is infinite, so too are His Books. In a thousand years or > so, God will continue revealing His Book where He left off with the Kitabi > Aqdas. This is part of a larger discussion but I think that alot of ethical and theological principles can be compressed in brief statements. For example, the golden rule. Gilberto: > > I think it is easier to make a case that Islam accurately represents > the teachings of Muhammad (saaws) than one can argue that modern-day > Christianity represents the teachings of Jesus. In the latter case, Hajir: > I believe unity is one of the most fundamental principles of God. Islam was > disunited as soon as Muhammad passed away. There is no logical way we > humans can unite the Shi'a with the Sunni, let alone unite the whole world. > Their differences are too fundamental. I disagree. Sunnis and Shias recognize one another as Muslim. Many years ago, Al-Azhar specifically recognized the Jaffari school of law as a 5th school alongside the traditional 4 schools of the sunnis. Sunni Islam (especially Sufism) gives a significant amount of respect to Ali and the imams. Just a few months ago in Iraq, a sunni boy died sav
Re: A couple of questions
> In the case of Christianity, the New Testament actually contains onlya very small set of words attributed to Jesus. Jesus only taught forabout 3 years, partially in secret, and even towards the end of hisministry his closest disciples still didn't totally understandeverything he was talking about. Paul's words make up more of theBible than any other person's, including Jesus. Paul never met Jesusin the flesh. And actually persecuted the early Christians until hehad his experience on the road to Damascus. He didn't even spend muchtime with the disciples who knew Jesus (out of 13 or so years, hemight have spent 2 weeks with a small group of them in Jerusalem).James had a different interpretation from Paul's and he was Jesus' ownbrother and the head of the church in Jerusalem. And we know thatthere were many other non-Pauline groups in existence which could alsoclaim to be authentic.<
I will assume for the sake of argument that your description above is historically 100% accurate. So do you propose that the advent of Jesus was basically useless and was not a guide in any way to the people? You yourself agreed that SOME FORMS of Christianity to really convey the essence of what Jesus taught: One God, Oneness of humanity, etc. Did these Christians accidentally come to believe these things? Or did they come to believe these things based on one of the versions of the contemporary Gospel? Who guided mankind from the death of Jesus until the manifestation of Muhammad? Do you really think we were left alone by God during this time?
>
In the case of Islam, the Quran consists of words which were spoken byMuhammad (saaws) . And you might not like them, but our knowledge ofthe prophet is also supplemented by hadith.
<
I don't think whether or not I like them is the issue. The issue is, how realistic is it really that God, who is supposedly infinite, compressed all His knowledge into one single Book we call the Qur'an? I believe since God's knowledge is infinite, so too are His Books. In a thousand years or so, God will continue revealing His Book where He left off with the Kitabi Aqdas.
> I think it is easier to make a case that Islam accurately representsthe teachings of Muhammad (saaws) than one can argue that modern-dayChristianity represents the teachings of Jesus. In the latter case,there is alot more distance, and seperation and gaps.<
I believe unity is one of the most fundamental principles of God. Islam was disunited as soon as Muhammad passed away. There is no logical way we humans can unite the Shi'a with the Sunni, let alone unite the whole world. Their differences are too fundamental. Therefore, God needs to intervene to bring about the unity of mankind: This is the goal of the Baha'i Revelation.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
> The larger point is that Bahais are different from one another just asMuslims are different from one another. And so if you have a "badBahai" and a "good Muslim" it is best to let God judge between them.Just because someone is a "Bahai" that shouldn't necessarily overruleother considerations. All of us are just trying to do the right thingto the best of our ability and understanding. And personally, I'm notsure that the "names" are the important thing.<
Agreed. This even applies equally to agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, or Hindus.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Firouz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The question under discussion is what should be done in those societies or
> countries where there is shortage of women, i.e a solution for today's
> China!
I'm not sure what the point is. In a situation like that polygamy
makes less sense and should probably be discouraged. Actually,
something else which is going on in China is that men are going to
their hometowns and marrying their cousins in order to find a wife. I
would imagine a simpler "solution" might be to encourage men to go
abroad and study/work indirectly in the hopes of finding spouses.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Firouz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> At the same time, don't you think the mainstream Muslims represent a
> >> significant departure from Prophet Muhammad Teachings?
> > Not in the way I am talking about.
> Dear Gilberto,
> I understand your explanation about the mainstream Christians and Muslims.
> You're right in your explanation. You have just described the time during
> the short period of manifestation of Christ and rather long prophethood of
> Muhammad.
Not just the time period, but the other factors as well.
> But then the situation after the death of Christ and Prophet Muhammad is
> more or less the same. Just upon the death of Prophet, His followers divided
> and each group interpreted Prophet's Words differently.
But in the case of Christianity, there was significant disagreement
about what the words of Jesus even were. There were literally hundreds
of "gospels" and many of them give very different pictures of Jesus'
teaching. In some Gospels, Jesus was described as being God and not
human at all. In others, he is described as human and not divine at
all. In several texts, he does not actually undergo the crucifixion
(so this is arguably more consistent with the typical Muslim
understanding). In some texts, he teaches his followers to continue
following the Jewish commandments. In some writings, Jesus opposed to
John the Baptist. In others, Jesus and the serpent from Genesis are on
the same side, but they are both opposed to the God of the Old
Testament. So in the case of early Christianity there are deep and
fundamental disagreements about what Jesus' real teachings are.
In the case of Islam, even sunnis and shias have the same Quran, and
the Quran is intact.
So again, the kinds of problems I'm talking about within Christianity
are very very different from the relatively minor technical
differences which might exist among Islamic rulings.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Gilberto:
That is actually an interesting point. In the Quran it specifically
condemns the ancient Arab practice of burying daughters in favor of
sons for similar reasons. And even in 2005, with advanced technology,
in some parts of the world a brutal practice like that continues in
some form.<<
The question under discussion is what should be done in those societies or
countries where there is shortage of women, i.e a solution for today's
China!
regards,
Firouz
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and
for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by
federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message
and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
At the same time, don't you think the mainstream Muslims represent a
significant departure from Prophet Muhammad Teachings?
Not in the way I am talking about.
Dear Gilberto,
I understand your explanation about the mainstream Christians and Muslims.
You're right in your explanation. You have just described the time during
the short period of manifestation of Christ and rather long prophethood of
Muhammad.
But then the situation after the death of Christ and Prophet Muhammad is
more or less the same. Just upon the death of Prophet, His followers divided
and each group interpreted Prophet's Words differently. Today the mainstream
Muslims beliefs are very different among various Muslim countries, and even
may have changed from the original Teachings of the Prophet. There is no
center of authority to explain what the Teachings of Islam really is. Any
clergy can issue a fatwa based on his own understanding of Islam. Many times
these fatwas are very contradictory.
Just some thoughts.
regards,
Firouz
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent
by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and
for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by
federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message
and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/9/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Gilberto,
>
> Nader Saiedi, author of Logos and Civilization, sums up Progressive
> Revelation pretty well (pages 11-14), in my view. I'm interested in your
> comments of the following:
Ok.
> The materialistic logic is obviously rejected by Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah
> equally rejects the exclusivism of fundamentalist religion by affirming the
> unity of all the Manifestations of God...
Ok. I think there are different kinds of exclusivism and
fundamentalism. And I'm not sure if the Bahai explanations I've seen
for the idea of "unity of all the Manifestations" is really
satisfactory.
> The fact that Baha'u'llah's teachings do not fit the exclusivist model of
> religious fundamentalism does not mean that His vision corresponds to a
> version of postmodern pluralism.
I don't think I would call myself post-modern.
Unlike postmodernist assumption of the
> RANDOMNESS of religion, PROGRESSIVE REVELATION assigns a clear purpose,
> meaning, direction, and logic to the divine revelations in relation to each
> other and in religious history.
I don't think I would try to fit the different religions in a scheme
like that. I tend to think that each religion, within itself, is
actually complete. The new prophet restates essential truths, rather
than bringing things which are fundamentally new.
For example, in the Quran God says to Muhammad:
[41.43] Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the apostles
before you; [...]
And one can find similar statements in the NT suggesting that Jesus
was only restating and explaining the Torah rather than abolishing it
with something new.
> In this logic, acceptance of **ONE** Manifestation implies acceptance of
> **ALL** the others, and rejection of **ONE** implies rejection of **ALL**.
> The essential truth expressed in all the religions becomes accessible
> through the recognition of the most recent Manifestation of God.
Yeah, I understand that part. But from my perspective that actually
sounds REALLY exclusive. I wouldn't insist that a good monotheistic
Christian or Jew necessarily has to accept Muhammad (saaws). If a
person's impressions of Islam are formed by a series of bad
representatives, I don't think God would blame them for not believing
in the prophet. It makes more sense that people just try to do the
best they can with what they know and God judges their deeds and
intentions. It would be really inappropriate to usurp that role.
But to go back to what you say above, it sounds like you are saying
people HAVE TO believe in Bahaullah or else they don't really believe
in Muhammad (saaws) or Jesus (as) or Moses (as). And that sounds just
like the fundamentalist approach.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/9/05, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Gilberto,
>
> >I guess there is a language issue I'm not clear on. What do *you* mean
> by apostacy? I thought that anyone who converts from religion A to
> religion B has apostaicized from religion A.<
> I think it depends on who is defining the change of belief.
> I was raised as a Christian (Roman Catholic). When I
> embraced the Baha'i Faith, I did not reject the teachings of
> Jesus, so in my view I am not an apostate from Christianity.
> But I think some Christians would say I am an apostate.
But there is a switch going on. Roman Catholicism isn't necessarily
the same as "the teachings of Jesus". I was also raised as a
Christian. But I would also say that my current beliefs are closer to
the religion of Jesus than what I believed before. But I wouldn't
object to someone saying I was no longer Christian.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/10/05, Firouz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Firouz:
> > But how one defines good or best?
Gilberto:
> As an individual you follow your conscience, informed and guided by whatever
> scripture or religious/spiritual/moral path you happen to follow.
Firouz:
> > I am sure those Muslims who have called for Jihad against West and USA
> > consider themselves as the best Muslim.
Gilberto:
> I'm not sure what your point is. Bahais who hate Muslims also think they are
> good Bahais too. We all have to engage in a process of self-criticism. But
> that's an individual process.
> Dear Friends We should be careful lest we keep on iterating, repeating,
> rehearsing the same ground over and over.
> Gilberto dear Brother I would say that the
> statement "Bahais hating Moslems"
> is not accurate. Bahais do not hate Moslems.
> Astaghfirullah. God forbid.
> Bahais hating Moslems would be a contradiction in terms.
>From my perspective it seems like you are making an unwarranted
generalization. Not all Bahais are perfect. Some card-carrying Bahais
are murderers. Some card-carrying Bahais are sex offenders. So why
wouldn't there be card-carrying Bahais who have negative feelings
towards Islam? In my discussions here, there have been several Bahais
who have admitted they've had some kind of negative feelings about
Islam that they are working on.
That doesn't mean that all Bahais are like that. But some are.
Unless you admit to that reality, then the various comparisons which
different people make between the Bahai faith and Islam seem
unreasonable. If you assume that all Bahais act as their scriptures
command, then you are comparing the Bahai ideal with a selective image
of Muslims from the news or from basic stereotypes.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Firouz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Scott:
> > Some societies had a shortage of women and polyandry was practiced there -
> > tibet and Bhutan for instance.
> In China today there is shortage of women due to one child policy in China
> for so many years. Many Chinese killed their daughters in order to have a
> son. Many Chinese men cannot find a wife in China today, specially among
> poorer Chinese families.
That is actually an interesting point. In the Quran it specifically
condemns the ancient Arab practice of burying daughters in favor of
sons for similar reasons. And even in 2005, with advanced technology,
in some parts of the world a brutal practice like that continues in
some form.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/10/05, Firouz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto:
> >>Yeah, I see what you are saying. But personally I wouldn't be as
> generous. I would say mainstream Christianity represents a significant
> departure from Jesus' original teaching. And I think Paul was largely
> responsible for the shift.<<
> At the same time, don't you think the mainstream Muslims represent a
> significant departure from Prophet Muhammad Teachings?
Not in the way I am talking about.
In the case of Christianity, the New Testament actually contains only
a very small set of words attributed to Jesus. Jesus only taught for
about 3 years, partially in secret, and even towards the end of his
ministry his closest disciples still didn't totally understand
everything he was talking about. Paul's words make up more of the
Bible than any other person's, including Jesus. Paul never met Jesus
in the flesh. And actually persecuted the early Christians until he
had his experience on the road to Damascus. He didn't even spend much
time with the disciples who knew Jesus (out of 13 or so years, he
might have spent 2 weeks with a small group of them in Jerusalem).
James had a different interpretation from Paul's and he was Jesus' own
brother and the head of the church in Jerusalem. And we know that
there were many other non-Pauline groups in existence which could also
claim to be authentic.
In the case of Islam, the Quran consists of words which were spoken by
Muhammad (saaws) . And you might not like them, but our knowledge of
the prophet is also supplemented by hadith. Muhammad (Saaws)taught
among the people for about 23 years. In the beginning he taught in
secret, but by the end Islam was a very public open religion practiced
by a community. The people had 23 years to ask questions, to
understand the details of doctrine and practice. The people who taught
and explained the religion after him (the sahabas) were all people who
knew the prophet rather well, his wives, his in-laws, his blood
relatives, his close friends. And there were many such people, making
sure that the teachings of the prophet were transmitted accurately to
the next generation.
I think it is easier to make a case that Islam accurately represents
the teachings of Muhammad (saaws) than one can argue that modern-day
Christianity represents the teachings of Jesus. In the latter case,
there is alot more distance, and seperation and gaps.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
Scott,
At 09:49 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote:
>>You're a rogue. You know that is the kind of statement that drives
>>argumentative agnostics absolutely bonkers don't you?<<
Yes. lol. Mostly, I was thinking of the difference between decreed and
conditional fate (Kitab-i-Iqan and Some Answered Questions).
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: A couple of questions
On 10/11/05, Firouz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto:
> >>I'm not sure what your point is. Bahais who hate Muslims also think
> they are good Bahais too. We all have to engage in a process of
> self-criticism. But that's an individual process.<<
> I don't think Baha'is hate Muslims or anyone else as hatred is against the
> Teachings of Baha'u'llah.
I'm not saying that all or most Bahais are like that. But *some*
Bahais obviously have a certain amount of animosity or dislike or some
other negative feelings towards the teachings of Islam, or Muslims as
a group.
The larger point is that Bahais are different from one another just as
Muslims are different from one another. And so if you have a "bad
Bahai" and a "good Muslim" it is best to let God judge between them.
Just because someone is a "Bahai" that shouldn't necessarily overrule
other considerations. All of us are just trying to do the right thing
to the best of our ability and understanding. And personally, I'm not
sure that the "names" are the important thing.
Peace
Gilberto
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The
information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts
or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Understanding of the Afterlife
In the Abrahamic faiths
preceeding the Baha'i faith, the Afterlife (overlap with Day of
Judgement), as a topic has been dealt with a great deal in the
scriptures. Images of eutopia versus eternal chastisement depending on our
'wordly' deeds have been portrayed numerous times. To my understanding,
according to the Baha'i faith, the next life isn't discussed much. The concepts
of heaven and hell are metaphors for nearness and remoteness from God's
grace and mercy, and not much else, apart from the fact that the soul still
progresses towards it's Lord in the 'land of Abha'. [Steve
Cooney]
Monder,
I
respectfully disagree, this is a major topic in the Baha'i teachings, and there
are probably more compilations and texts on this topic than any other. The
Baha'i texts make constant reference to the spirit world, the Supreme Concourse,
this world as preparation for the next, the denizens of the next world guiding
this one and so on.
One of
the best collections of texts, but by no means the only one, is Hugh Motlagh's
The Glorious Journey to God. And this only assembles the extent English
materials.
http://www.globalperspective.org/afterlife.html
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
