from:"Hajir Moghaddam"

Re: Filtering out Baha'i Studies

2011-01-01 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You are a Muslim.
Down with Islam.


  
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Re: Filtering out Baha'i Studies

2011-01-01 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Just kidding.  :)  Just checked my spam and saw all these crazy messages.  
Good luck getting the list back, or at least shutting it down, or getting it 
moderated. Regards.


  
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Gilberto and Matt

2011-01-01 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Are you guys on Facebook?  If so, maybe connect with Baha'is there, I am sure 
many Baha'is here are also on Facebook.  Are you guys students, work in 
corporate, or what?  Do you have families, parents, wives, children?  Any 
Baha'is around where you live?  Been to Baha'i meetings or Ruhi classes?  




  
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Equality of women and men in Abdu'l-Baha's writings

2007-04-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is the equality of women and men. The 
world of humanity has two wings -- one is women and the other men. Not until 
both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, 
flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world 
of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and 
prosperity be attained as they ought to be.  -Abdu'l-Baha
   
  ...women are accounted the same as men...  -Abdu'l-Baha
   
  This is a bounteous characteristic of this wondrous Age which... hath 
bestowed masculine might upon womanhood  -Abdu'l-Baha
   
  ...follow a course of action which will be the cause of eternal glory to all 
womankind...  
  -Abdu'l-Baha

  ...the entrance of women into all human departments is an irrefutable and 
incontrovertible question. No soul can retard or prevent it.  -Abdu'l-Baha
   
  ...the rights and privileges of women is one of the greatest principles of 
Abdu'l-Baha.  
  -Abdu'l-Baha
   
   

   
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The Equality of Women and Men in Abdu'l-Baha's Writings

2007-04-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is the equality of women and men. The 
world of humanity has two wings -- one is women and the other men. Not until 
both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, 
flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world 
of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and 
prosperity be attained as they ought to be.
   
   
  ...women are accounted the same as men...
   
   
  This is a bounteous characteristic of this wondrous Age which... hath 
bestowed masculine might upon womanhood
   
   
  ...follow a course of action which will be the cause of eternal glory to all 
womankind...  
  
 
  ...the entrance of women into all human departments is an irrefutable and 
incontrovertible question. No soul can retard or prevent it.
   
   
  ...the rights and privileges of women is one of the greatest principles of 
Abdu'l-Baha.  
   

 
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Women: Topics on Peace, Civilization, Education, New Economy, Role of Men

2007-04-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Universal Education:  The decision-making agencies involved would do well to 
consider giving first priority to the education of women and girls...  (The 
Promise of World Peace)
   
   
  World Peace:  The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality 
between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged 
prerequisites of peace. The denial of such equality perpetrates an injustice 
against one half of the world's population and promotes in men harmful 
attitudes and habits that are carried from the family to the workplace, to 
political life, and ultimately to international relations. There are no 
grounds, moral, practical, or biological, upon which such denial can be 
justified. Only as women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields of 
human endeavour will the moral and psychological climate be created in which 
international peace can emerge.  (The Promise of World Peace)
   
   
  World Civilization:  The creation of a peaceful and sustainable world 
civilization will be impossible without the full participation of women in 
every arena of human activity.  (Turning Point of All Nations)
   
   
  The Role of Men:  It is time for the institutions of the world, composed 
mainly of men, to use their influence to promote the systematic inclusion of 
women, not out of condescension or presumed self-sacrifice but as an act 
motivated by the belief that the contributions of women are required for 
society to progress. (Turning Point of All Nations)
   
   
  Global Development:  A commitment to the establishment of full equality 
between men and women, in all departments of life and at every level of 
society, will be central to the success of efforts to conceive and implement a 
strategy of global development.  (The Prosperity of Humankind)
   
   
  A New Economy:  Given the vital role of economic activity in the advancement 
of civilization, visible evidence of the pace at which development is 
progressing will be the extent to which women gain access to all avenues of 
economic endeavor. The challenge goes beyond ensuring an equitable distribution 
of opportunity, important as that is. It calls for a fundamental rethinking of 
economic issues in a manner that will invite the full participation of a range 
of human experience and insight hitherto largely excluded from the discourse. 
The classical economic models of impersonal markets in which human beings act 
as autonomous makers of self-regarding choices will not serve the needs of a 
world motivated by ideals of unity and justice. Society will find itself 
increasingly challenged to develop new economic models shaped by insights that 
arise from a sympathetic understanding of shared experience, from viewing human 
beings in relation to others, and from a recognition of the
 centrality to social well-being of the role of the family and the community. 
Such an intellectual breakthrough -- strongly altruistic rather than 
self-centered in focus -- must draw heavily on both the spiritual and 
scientific sensibilities of the race, and millennia of experience have prepared 
women to make crucial contributions to the common effort.   (The Prosperity of 
Humankind)
   
   
   

   
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Any Hindus in Egypt???

2006-12-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Does anyone know if there are any Hindus or Buddhists in Egypt, and if so, what 
would they use to identify themselves if the only 3 options are Jewish, 
Christian, and Muslim (there is not even an other category)?  I cannot believe 
that out of 70 or so million people there are no Hindus from India living 
there.  Are they all on a working visa and not citizens of Egypt?  I tried to 
search population demographics of Egypt and didn't find anything other than 
that there are Zero 0 Buddhists in Egypt. 
   
  Thanks,
  Hajir

 
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Contending people: Warns Baha'u'llah Manifestation of God

2006-02-26 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Baha'u'llah writes:-Ocontending peoplesand kindreds of the earth! Set your faces towards unity,and let the radiance of its light shine upon you. Gather ye together,and for the sake of God resolve to root outwhatever is the source of contention amongst you. Then will the effulgence of the worlds great Luminaryenvelop the whole earth, and its inhabitants become the citizens of one city,and the occupants of one and the same throne. This wronged One (Baha'u'llah)hath,ever since the early days o!
f His
life, cherished none other desire but this,and will continue to entertain no wish except this wish. -This is the Day of mutual deceit;whither do ye flee? The mountains have passed away,and the heavens have been folded together,and the whole earth is held within His grasp, could ye but understand it. Who is it that can protect you? None, by Him Who is the All-Merciful.-Great is indeed your blessednessinasmuch as His unfailing grace hath been vouchsafed unto you and ye have been aided to recognize this Cause !
a
Causethrough whose potencythe heavens have been folded togetherand every lofty and towering mountain hath been scattered in dust. -The heavenof religions is split and the mooncleft asunder and the peoples of the earthare brought together in a new resurrection. Fear ye God and follow not the promptings of your passions, rather follow Him unto Whom have testified the Scriptures of God, !
bsp; the
All-Knowing,the All-Wise. - Among them are those who have said: "Have the verses been sent down?"Say "Yea, by Him Who is the Lord of the heavens!" "Hath the Hour come?""Nay, more; it hath passed,by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. The Plain is disclosed, and mankind is sore vexed and fearful. Earthquakes have broken loose, and the tribes h!
ave
lamented, for fear of God, the Lord of Strength, the All-Compelling.

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Re: Imam Mahdi's Shrine Destroyed - Muslim Unity????

2006-02-26 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto, thanks for link. Hopefullysolidaritywill spread quickly.
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Dreams

2006-02-10 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Baha'u'llah wrote:"Behold how the dream thou hast dreamed is, after the lapse of many years, re-enacted before thine eyes. Consider how strange is the mystery of the world that appeareth to thee in thy dream. Ponder in thine heart upon the unsearchable wisdom of God, and meditate on its manifold revelations "BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (AP) -- More than five years ago, Rod Spraggins made a sensational charge at a candidate forum, publicly accusing a political opponent of murder with nothing to back up the allegation except, it turns out, a vision. Now police say Spraggins was right. Barry Waites, Spraggins' opponent in the 2000 race for Lanett City Council, was arrested this week on murder charges in the 1998 slaying of his wife, who was found dead in their split-level home in this sleepy town of 8,000 along the Georgia line. In 2002, Spraggins,!
a bail
bondsman, stunned a crowd of 100 when he accused Waites of killing his wife and dared the man to sue him for slander if he was wrong. Waites was not at the forum, never responded publicly to the accusation and never sued. In an otherwordly turn to the saga Friday, Spraggins disclosed that he never had any evidence to make the accusation and that it was based entirely on Mrs. Waites' appearing to him in a series of dreams. "She started appearing to me within the first weeks of her death," said Spraggins, adding that the dreams prompted him to enter the City Council race for the sole purpose of making the accusation. Both he and Waites lost their bids for the City Council amid the controversy, but Spraggins said he got what he wanted in the end. "I hate it for his family. ... I hate it for Charlotte's family. But I'm glad justice is finally going to be served," he said in a telephone interview. Waites, 58!
, was
arrested Thursday at a clothing store he runs with his current wife. He was jailed on $150,000 bail. It was not immediately known whether he had hired a lawyer. Police Chief Ron Docimo would not comment on exactly what led to the arrest, saying only that it was a "culmination of years of following up on leads and tips." Waites was serving as interim mayor when 49-year-old Charlotte Waites was found strangled and with a blow to the head. The victim's brother, Gene Brown, said police told him within a week of the slaying that Waites was the prime suspect. Brown said that the couple had numerous financial problems during their 28-year marriage and that he believes an argument over money resulted in her death. In 2002, Waites was sentenced to six months in jail after pleading guilty in an ethics case that was uncovered during an investigation of his wife's killing. He admitted taking money from a National Guard armory!
where he
worked. Brown credited Spraggins with keeping up public pressure on police to solve the murder case. "Rod had it pegged from the beginning," Brown said. "I had doubts about his methods. But he's got guts."

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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings

2006-01-24 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Susan,I really like how you make the following distinction in emphasis:Christianity -- Orthodoxy Islam -- Orthopraxy Baha'i -- CovenantialWhat about Judaism? Is it an orthopraxy like Islam because they have divine laws which they must follow to the letter?Would Christians who follow Old Testament Laws (what are these Christianscalled?) be better categorized with Islam? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You keep talking about minor details. I'm talking about foundational issues. Shi`ah believes that Abu-Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman wrongfully usurped `Ali's legitimate posi!
tion as
the Prophet's vicar and authroizedinterpreter of the Word of God. No Sunni would ever agree to that. Dear Iskandar and Gilberto, I think what Iskandar's statement here demonstrates is the importance of what we would see as a Covenantal issue.

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Re: kalimat

2006-01-10 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







   I'm not sure if you understand what I'm getting at. For instance,there are a number of places where from my perspective, Bahaiteachings clearly reject and contradict things in the Quran. Eventhough Bahais say they believe the Quran is the word of God. When I'min a less than charitable mood I might say that Bahais simply rejectthe authority of the Quran, but most of the time I actually try toassume the best and allow for the possibility that Bahais are actingin good faith and are basically sincere even though my rational mindsays that there are some deep contradictions.What I'm suggesting is that, by the same token, maybe you *think* thatSend McGlinn's statements contradict statements by the Universal Houseof Justice, maybe they really don't. If you are willing to go throughthe mental gymnastics necessary to reconcile "the sonship and divinityof Christ" (for instance) according to Shoghi Effe!
 ndi with
 the Quranicdenials of the same, then you should be able to reconcile whateverapparent contradictions you think are there related to Sen McGlinn'swritings.Hi Gilberto,I think this is an excellent question. One obvious difference is that the Universal House of Justice is alive / is in existence today.It hasclearly made the decision that Sen's personal interpretationhas overstepped the bounds of the limits It has established. So, this interpretation is in conflict with meaning of the Text of the Will and Testament.Regarding the Qur'an, the Baha'i belief is that if one were able to ask Muhammad / Allah today about the intended meaning or correct interpretation of the Qur'an,His answerwould be in agreement with the writings of this Revelation.Hajir
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-28 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least oneprophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date.
I don't think it is presumtuous to say "Hey killing folks who areminding their own business is generally wrong" or "stealing is a badthing to do"

Hajir: Since the world has changed and we today are living in a new world per the Most Holy Verse "Open thou thine eyes to behold how a NEW CREATION hath come into being since the year nine (1853)", even the divine rules revealed by God in the Qur'an have been recreated through His new Revelation.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-28 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:

How do you define "appropriate"? I would suggest we come up with somespecific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, andwhich can be applied in different situations.

Hajir:

This is a great idea. The only criteria and condition that makes sense is God Himself. Since God is beyond our capability to recognize Him, we must look to His Messenger and His Book as what is appropriate, what is right.
Now that the Manifestation of God has come, now that the Book foretold by the Qur'an as the Judge on the Day of Resurrection has appeared, the only right thing, the only appropriate thing, is to be humble before God and follow in His way.
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Re: criteria for appropriateness Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-28 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text.Hajir:
Makes sense. But it is more than just coincidence, to Baha'is, that all of these changes in human thought (spirit of the age)took place around the time of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. To us, it was all related to the Revelation of God, whichrevolutionize the whole plant.
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-27 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style ofyour (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet anotherexample of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while atthe same time try to delegitimize it.
Hajir:

Gilberto, you're not getting the point.

We are drawing a comparison between the verses in Deuteronomy and the Qur'an.

It is amazing that you are okay about making Christians look bad, but when there are similar verses it the Qur'an, you are quick to 'interpret' it away.

We are actually not degrading the Qur'an or deligitimizing it by bring up the point.

We are try to help you reanalyze Deuteronomy so you can reinterpret it in a good light.

Though Baha'is have our own Book, we still interpret the writings in all Holy Books in a positive light. It is unfortunate that your brand of Islam cannot do that, it seems like you are intimidated by the other Holy Books. There is nothing to be afraid of, you can make positive statements about the Bible without undermining the Qur'an.
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Re: Values should not be time dependent

2005-10-27 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto: And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 whichchanges the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on.Hajir:

Sure there has.

In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah writes: "Open thou thine eyes to behold how a NEW CREATION hath come into being since the year nine (1853)." So, everything, including the nature of human greed and the human hand, HASchanged.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-23 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Good morning,

I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking at it is all that compelling either. Maybe part of the problem with your explanations (which to me lack clarity anyway) is that they are not all that well thought-out in the *right way*. I suggest, for you message to come across better and more convincing, that you read more writings of Baha'u'llah and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you should read from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you can base your arguments offlegitimateBaha'i point-of-view. It would come across more genuine that way.

A basic Baha'i principle is Progressive Revelation, but you have not been able to articulate what the Baha'i view of this principle really is. Your argumentsagainstProgressive Revelation don't come across because you are basing your arguments off of an interpretation of "Progressive Revelation" that Baha'is ourselves don't accept or believe in ourselves .

Another basic Baha'i principle is oneness of Religions, but you have not been able to articualte this either, your arguments against our view don't come across because you aren't arguing *against* our view of it anyway, you are arguing against a hypothetical concept of oneness of religions that we don't accept ourselves.

I think this is the case for every single Baha'i Principle we've discussed.

Just some advice,
Hajir
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-23 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto: I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahaitrying to better understand the Bahai faith.

Haj:
Tell me something I don't know. : )
Gilberto:I might just take you up on that. I"m curious though. Do you think itis possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?

Haj:
Not sure if you have to believe in it, but you sure do have to see it through its own paradigm. Let me know how I can help.
Gilberto:Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you canpoint to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation?Haj:
Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.

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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-23 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Haj: Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Gilberto:Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums isto point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have beensaying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that Idon't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective,I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais.Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understandingof progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing theseissues. But if not that's ok too.)
---
Haj:

I don't think my explanation of the Baha'i view of Progressive Revelation would be all that useful to you, becauseyou would be seeing Progressive Revelation from MY eyes, my paradigm, not the Baha'i Faith's (Baha'u'llah-Abdu'l-Baha-Shoghi Effendi-House of Justice-the Bab).

My explanation of Progressive Revelation would be an introduction to what Baha'u'llah really taught, my view of them. Sure, sinceI (or someone else here) may have read more of the Baha'i writings and may know more about the Baha'i history than you do, I (we) would be able to help you focus in on what the Baha'i Writings mean by saying X and Y.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-23 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
So do Bahais understand the Quran?Haj:
See Scott's response.
.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-23 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where I"mwrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'mnot seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommitsomething important? Something else? What?Haj:
Youoversimplify Baha'i principles.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-22 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't just be a "fad". I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning based on more fundamental principles.

Gilberto, I agree. For this reason, the Baha'i writings stress that the 'essential' aspect of religion, what in your terminology are the 'fundamental principles', remain the same. What really remains the same is the Essence of God, and these principles are manifestations of His names.

On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious lawschange, I think the periods we are talking about are really not asdistant as you seem to be making out. According to the Bahai faith,isn't the shariah valid until the Bab announced that he was bringing anew revelation in 1844,
So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith,killing apostates is A-OK until 1843.

It is a sign of openmindedness that you are starting to view the world as a Baha'i!Areyou starting to see theTruth of the Baha'iRevelation?

So really, we are talking about you imposing your late20th century values on the mid-19th century which isn't as much of astretch.

The mid 19th century was not all that different in those areas and lands owned and run by Islam from the 7th century. Even today,the middle eastlooks like the 7th century, doesn't it. For Islam to be valid, it has to freeze time to the conditions of the 7th century. This is why we have the Baha'i Revelation, so that civilization may continue to grow.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-22 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto,

But there are parts of the shariah which I would include in that fundamental
essential aspect but which Bahais would not.

What is a fundamental essential aspect of the Islamic law that I as a Baha'i disagreed was essential? All religions teach:

1. pure and kind heartedness
2. justice
3. man created by God
4. love of God
5. love of man6. selflessness and elimination of ego and selfishness
7. importance of works
8. search for God
9. obeying the law of God
10. importance of prayer
11. helping the poor
12. doing unto others like doing unto self
13. elimination of hypocrisy
14. teaching cause of God
15. etc. etc.

For example, I would say that properly understood, both the existence of slavery and its abolition flow out of those fundamental principles. But for Bahais this is not the case.

I also think everything flows out of the fundamental principles.

I would say that genocide is always wrong, but some Bahais (like some Christians) have argued that some genocides (like those attributed to God in the OT) are ok.

How do you presume you know the exact circumstance for the commandment of God made thousands of years ago?
On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious laws change, I think the periods we are talking about are really not as distant as you seem to be making out.

Since the essentials don't change, I don't see this as a problem. God makes the decision when to change the non-essential religious laws that are borne out of those essential teachings. And it is God who decides which specific non-essential laws are appropriate, not you or me.

Unless of course you claim to the mihdi of Islam and are advancing your own claim, and now deem the shariah death penalty for apostates no longer valid or restricted to very rare situations.
So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith, killing apostates is A-OK until 1843.There was a justification for it until 1843, and the justification in my view was to prevent people from making false claims to revelation from God. This rule allowed the Bab to declare Himself without being lost in the crowd of too many false claimants. But since I am not God, I cannot tell you whether this is the only reason. What I *can* tell you for sure is that this law is not part of the Baha'i Law, and is therefore no longer valid for this day and age. Even proto-Baha'is like agnostics, Christians, Jews, and some Muslims agree that it is outdated.

I don't think fundamental moral principles should change with the calendar.

Neither do I. But I don't think the Islamic rule to kill apostates is an essential fundamental teaching of Islam or religion in general. It is one of those laws that had a specific purpose, but this specific scenario is now obviously lost to Islam. And there isn't one entity, one leader, with the authority to make a conclusive decisive decision about this rule, such that it would apply to all Muslims. There is no way that you, if you claim to be a kind of a mihdi, bring together the Shi'a and the Sunni to both agree to throw this rule on apostates out the window, or to make it so specific that it is no longer exercised. Shi'as even today sentence Baha'is to death based on this Hadith.

Hajir
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-22 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







Gilberto,

I'm surprised you haven't brought up the concept of abrogation 'naskh'and progressive revelation within the Qur'an itself. Why do you object to progressive revelation and abrogation by Baha'i Writings over the Qur'an, but hide the issues over abrogration and progressive revelation within the Qur'an itself? 


It seems you are trying to hide away from all the evidences supporting Baha'u'llah as fulfillment of the Qur'anic Revelation. Honestly, in your heart, your qalb, don't youfeel that Baha'u'llahis right, and that you are really turning your back on God's Cause, and instead of helping it advance and grow, you are really working to stop the advancement of the Cause of God?

Hajir

--- 

major issue in Qur'anic interpretation is that of abrogation - Naskh. Within the Qur'an itself are statements which offset others, but according to the doctrine of abrogation the later texts supersede the earlier whenever there are inconsistencies. The Muslim argument is that the abrogated verses were only meant for specific, temporary situations. We have seen that the revelation of the Qur'an is grounded in the historical circumstances of the life and career of Muhammad, and so there is a progressive element in doctrine of Islam's holy book. Situations change and develop, and since the Qur'an reflects this, its teachings changed with the circumstance at hand. At the most obvious level we can see this in the fact that in the early years of Islam, Muhammad was a minority preacher in Mecca, concerning himself with almost solely theological and moral/social issues, but when he moved to Medina, he became the Governmental Executive, and so his rev!
 elations
 began to address legal, political and economic matters. The Qur'an explains the practice of abrogation by referring to the sovereignty of God. Yusuf Ali says: 
For: 2.106 
The word which I have translated by the word 'revelations' is Ayat... It is not only used for verses of the Quran, but in a general sense for God's revelations, as in ii. 39 and for other Signs of God in history or nature, or miracles, as in ii. 61. It has even been used for human signs and tokens of wonder, as, for example, monuments or landmarks built by the ancient people of AD (xxvi. 128). What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means tht God's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its Form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammad. Some commentators apply it also to the Ayat of the Quran. There is nothing derogatory in this if we believe in progressive revelation. In iii. 7 we are told distinctly about the Quran, that some of its verses are basic or fundamental, and others are allegorical, and it is mischievous!
  to treat
 the allegorical verses and follow them (literally). On the other hand, it is absurd to treat such a verse as ii. 115 as if it were abrogated by ii. 144 about the Qibla. We turn to the Qibla, but we do not believe that God is only in one place. He is everywhere.
As can be seen, some Muslims believe that this verse refers to Jewish and Christian Scriptures. However, it is not the only verse that impinges on this subject, and these others indicate that what is involved is abrogation of the Qur'an. 
For: 16.101 
... The doctrine of progressive revelation from age to age and time to time does not mean that Allah's fundamental Law changes. It is not fair to charge a Prophet of Allah with forgery because the Message as revealed to him is in a different form from that revealed before, when the core of the Truth is the same, for it comes from Allah.
In the Hadith, we find reference to abrogation which specifically relates this practice to the Qur'an. Another text concerns Surah 2:106; a Qur'anic reciter was supposed to have memorised every revelation from Muhammad, so what was under consideration in this text was whether he should have deleted those verses which had been cancelled. Finally, there are Hadith texts which settle the issue that abrogation relates to the Qur'an itself, rather than to the holy scriptures of the Jews and Christians (or anyone else for that matter). The Hadith illustrates our earlier point about the progressive character of Qur'anic revelation, and how an aspect of this related to the changed conditions of Muhammad after the Hegira. The classic example often used by Muslim exegetes to explain the mechanics of abrogation is found with respect to the widow's bequest. 
To understand what this involves, we can examine the fact that Islam makes a great point in portraying itself as a 'mercy' to Mankind, and part of this is that is does not burden believers with too much ritual obligation. For example, Surah 73 begins in vs. 2 - 4, by commanding Believers to spend a considerable portion of the night in prayer, but ayah 20 abrogates this. S. 43:89 orders that polytheists be let alone, however, S. 2:190-191 commands

Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-22 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







 I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human life, are related to the essential fundamental principles.
So are you saying that it is an essential fundamental principle to kill apostates?

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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-20 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that theProphet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compellingevidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, thefact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is nota compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say it. I'd love tobe able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I just don't havethat proof now. I don't know what Hajir thinks. Hajir:
I agree.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-20 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







I'm very happy you said that, Gilberto: "So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong."

The problem is, it is "wrong" for a Muslim to become a Baha'i. This is a greatest form of challenge for any religion that springs out of Islam, especially a religion that claims to be independent of Islam: specifically, the Baha'i Faith. This is clear evidence that the Bab and Baha'u'llah were not only motivated by God, but where animating the power of God on earth when they succeeded to tear through layers and layers of veils and clouds so that the sun of Baha may shine.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
I've said this before but the Bahai faith obviously sets up a hierarchy of different religions with the most recent religion (itself) on the top. And I think that is necessarily messed up.

Hajir:
Are you suggesting that Islam doesn't do that, while the Baha'i Faith does?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
So if you are married to the Bahai faith and think its the greatest religion in the world, that's your perception. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it the same way. And another person might be perfectly happy without being married to Bahai.

Hajir:
Are you suggesting that Islam is above our perception?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they havedisbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not fromamong them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but ifthey turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,and take not from among them a friend or a helper.[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there isan alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fightingyou or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He wouldhave given them power over you, so that they should have certainlyfought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight youand offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.Gilberto:
So who is excepted? Those who you have a treaty with. Those who havestopped fighting. Those who have withdrawn and offered peace. So thepeople in verse 89 who are being fought against are clearly those whoyou have no treaty with, and who have not laid down their arms and arecontinuing to fight against you. But those who are peaceful, ALLAH HASNOT GIVEN YOU A WAY AGAINST THEM. When the Quran talks about using force against a group of people its not just non-Muslims who are peacefully minding their own business. It is talking about those who have violently attacked the Muslims and have no intention of stopping.Hajir:
Doesn'tthe second part of the verse assumes there was fighting already taking place: "their hearts shrinking from fighting you".

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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







"Whosoever killed a person  unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land  it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (5:32)

"According to this verse of the Qur'an, if one human being is killed who is neither guilty of murdering another person nor guilty of causing disorder/strife, it would be equivalent of massacring the entire human race, which is an inconceivably barbaric crime, and a monumental sin. This verse makes it clear and unequivocal who is a legitimate target, and who is not."

2.190-1: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." 

"This verse is traditionally interpreted (for example by Ibn Kathir) as forbidding attacks on non-combatants."

The other verse in question was in"reference to the Hypocrites (munafiqin), a group at Medina, who are said to have pretended to be Muslims while secretly supporting their enemies."

(answers.com)
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto: I don't think Islam sets up a hierarchy of religions according totime, no.

Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If Johnis married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the mostbeautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmedwill also probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman inthe world. But there is not a whole lot of point in arguing about it.
Hajir:
But I don't think I'm arguingover objective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify itby more concrete means.

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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You know?
Hajir:
Hmm... what do you *really* mean by this analogy?
Gilberto:I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Musliminterpretation of what Muhammad taught as "Islamic principles". TheBahai interpretation of what Muhammad (or the Bab or Bahaullah etc.)taught would be "Bahai principles". So in that sense Bahais arecritical of "Islamic principles" (e.g. the idea that the Islamicshariah is still valid, the idea that Muhammad (saaws) is the lastprophet, etc.)Hajir:
Do you mean that the Baha'i view of "Islam principles" is essentially different from the Muslim view of "Christian principles"? Do you mean that Muslims do not misinterpret Christian "principles" because they are corrupt anyway?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

subjective... I meant subjective.

But I don't think I'm arguing over subjective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify it by more concrete means.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all? Gilberto: I wouldn't call it a hierarchy. Hajir: Do you mean that Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith in this sense?Gilberto: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true(although many contain alot of wisdom and truth).

Hajir: How is this a better view than saying that all religions *are* true?
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread

2005-10-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hajir: What about the Hadith?

Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-payingnon-Muslims.

Hajir:
Please explain this Hadith to me:
"Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection." "

Hajir:
Now, compare that saying of the Prophet, inspired by God for His day (rightfully so), to the teaching of the Baha'i Faith, which is applicable for our day, this day.
"Persons who have been attracted to the Bah Faith but who decide, for whatever reason, to leave it are entirely free to do so." -One Common Faith
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-18 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

On 10/17/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, Obviously Baha'is believe that Islamic laws are unsuitable for the modern-times. That's why we have Baha'i Laws. You think its obvious. And I think its obvious. But apparently alot of Bahais don't want to admit that their religion says this. -GilbertoYet, I must say that my Qur'an and Bibleareplaced next tomy Aqdas.

I think Baha'is should publish a book like the "Bible" which includes the Old Testament and the New Testament under one cover.

The Baha'iversion of thisbookwould include the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran, the Bayan, and the Aqdas.

Hajir

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Re: No CC Please

2005-10-16 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Max,

That's odd, because some of the messages don't even get to my inbox.

Hajir
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-15 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

 I agree that you have a valid concern but I'm not sure how far 
 that takes you. No matter if you wanted to substitute some 
 synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is  given some 
 kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is  spoken of in 
 different, and higher terms.

Susan  Gilberto,

You're both missing my point.  Let's say the Quran is wholly authentic.  This 
is not a problem for me as a Baha'i because even though the Bayan is wholly 
authentic, the Aqdas was still revealed.

Therefore, questions over authenticity of the Bible is not the *reason* for the 
revelation of the Quran, since the question of authenticity was *obviously* not 
the reason for the revelations of the Bayan and Aqdas.

Hajir

 
 
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-15 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

So if you want to prove something about the Bible you need to study the Bible specifically and where it came from and how it was put together.
Okay. Before we get there, can you tell me what the Quran says the reason is for God sendingHis prophets? I suppose there were many reasons, or was it always inhopes of perfectly recording the Revelation of God?

Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-14 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto: The Quran was a specific revelation given to Muhammad, and transmitted to the Muslim community and preserved by them.
Hajir: Agreed. Therefore, "the Gospel" must be the Revelation of God given to Jesus. Both of us already agree that Jesus was recipient of the Revelation of God. I propose that what remained of the Gospel in the form of the New Testament was sufficient, *for them*, sufficient enough to make them the "the People of the Book".

Gilberto:Sure.

Hajir:Awesome, we agree. So now just answer this question for me:what makes people living today any different from the people living before the record of Muhammad's revelation *in the Qur'an*? Why do we all of a suddenhave an *infinitely-perfect* record of the Infinite Revelation, but in the pastwe only had a *limitedly-perfect* record of the *same* Infinite Revelation? The reason I use the word limitedly-perfect is

(1) based on the principle of Justice (they had to have had something that to them was perfect), and

(2) based on the fact that the wholly authentic Qur'an says that the people who followed the New Testament were ahl-i Kitab (People of the Book).

If God can renew His Revelation and replace a Book (record of Revelation) with another Book (record of Revelation) once, why can't He do it a second time, and a third time, and a fourth time, ...?

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-14 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

 Human beings have the same basic needs And so if we have the
 Quran, and the Quran (and sunnah, etc.) was
 sufficient to guide the human beings living before 1844, and we  still have 
 all those spiritual resources, then the same 
 resources are sufficient to guide human beings after 1844.

Doesn't make sense.  This means that the resources available to the people 
before 622 (i.e. the New Testament) must have been sufficient to guide them for 
ever too.  Then that wouldn't make sense, because the Torah was sufficient to 
guide humankind before 1AD, so the Torah should the sufficient guide for 
ever... With this logic, the only thing we need is Adam Himself !


 So from a Muslim perspective, God certainly CAN send thousands 
 more prophets if he wants to. He CAN also choose not to do that.  But 
 orthodox Islam teaches that according to the Quran and 
 sunnah, God chose to make Muhammad (saaws) the last prophet.

How can that be?  Because as I described in my messages these last couple of 
days, my belief that the Book continues to be renewed is based on the Qur'an 
itself.

 
 
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-14 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
What is wrong with imperfect traces of earlier revelation?

Hajir:
Because if they were imperfect for their time, they would not have been 
sufficient traces of God's Revelation for their guidance.

 
 
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-14 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

1. Hajir:

Doesn't make sense. This means that the resources available to the people before
622 (i.e. the New Testament) must have been sufficient to guide them for ever too.

1. Gilberto:
I actually have alot less of a problem with that than you do. I don'tneed to denigrate Christians and tell them that what they have is outof date in order for me to feel good. Like I've said before, therewasn't a *need* for God to send Muhammad (saaws). But God in hismercy chose to send him to us.

1. Hajir:
Sounds like we are saying the same thing. I would consider the Christian to be following a Book that was absolutely perfect for its time, so it is still perfect today. Yet, I have another 3 Revelations sent from God to add to it. These 3 newer Revelations of the Same Truth are in essence only repeats of the Revelation of Jesus.
-- --

2. Gilberto:
In any case, I don't think you are applying the argument in the right way. The Bible actually has changed in significant ways.

2. Hajir:
I think that if changes were made to the Bible after the revelation of Muhammad, then the issue would be irrelevant. I also don't think people who believed in the Bible as the word of God would intentionally change it.
-- --
3.Gilberto: Again, I actually don't have as much of a problem with this as you do. Judaism is a good religion with alot of wisdom in it.

3. Hajir:
Agreed.
-- --

4. Gilberto:
I might take exception to specific things which don't make sense to me as an individual, but they certainly have the capacity to be good spiritual people.

4. Hajir:
My opinion of them don't matter, my standard is the latest Revelation of God.
-- --

5. Gilberto:
In terms of the Torah, among Biblical scholars virtually no one believes that the current Torah was actually written by Moses. So if Torah is the original revelation, there is some serious
question as to the form in which it exists.

5. Hajir:
To me, this is irrelevant because whatever "to-us-inadequate-record" of the Torah existed before Jesus came along must have been sufficient for the people, perfect for them. Therefore, I cannot criticize those who follow the Torah, and must consort with them in friendship. Afterall, if I lived in 300BC, I would be following the Torah to have direct access to God's Revelation.
-- --

6. Gilberto:I don't remember you specifically quoting from the Quran to supportthe idea that there needs to be continual revelation. But even if youdid, we would just obviously disagree on the interpretation.

6. Hajir:
And I would respect you for your opinion/interpretation, and I would have had the same opinion had I lived in the time before the Bab. It is the standard mainstream Muslim belief, which was clarified and interpreted by the Bab (others may have said it too before the Bab).

It looks like we have more in common than we thought.

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-14 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

 I don't think we are saying the same thing. Something I've realized a
 long time ago in my discussions with Bahais is that Bahais tend to
 have a VERY different understanding of the role of time. If we really
 agreed I don't see why you would be asking the questions you are
 asking or making the comments you are making.

What I meant is that we both agree that what remains of the past Revelations
is valuable  good, and those who follow them must be respected.


 You are qualifying/limiting your comment by saying that the Injeel was
 absolutely perfect *for its time*. I'm not saying that. I don't think
 that humanity in its essence has changed substantially.

I don't think the soul changes, but the maturity of the soul does change.
Even within my own life, my maturity changes as time passes, as I meet more 
people
 learn more things about the world.  But lets ignore this for the moment, 
because
now I realize that I don't think I fully understand your perspective.  So let 
me ask 
you 4 more questions.

1.  Do you think that the actual Word of God is timeless?
2.  Do you think that the record of the actual Word of God is timeless?
3.  Do you think that people of the past were at a disadvantage because
they didn't have the actual Word of God?
4.  Do you think that if the transmission of Word of God was perfectly 
recorded using a videotape,
that the Word of God given to Jesus would consist of the same exact words as 
the 
Word of God given to Muhammad? 

You make a lot of good point in the rest of your message that I responded to, 
but I just
deleted it so you can answer these questions above, also, because I felt like I 
was
repeating the same things I have already said.

Regards,
Hajir

 
 
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-14 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto:
Do you think the Torah is sufficent now? Or would you say its deficient? Is the 
Quran sufficent now? Or is it deficient?

Hajir:
I think there are two different parts to the Quran and the Torah.  The 
essential teachings and the social teachings.  The essential teachings are for 
the human soul, and since the human soul never changes, then the essential 
teachings are one, they agree with one another.  But since the social ability 
of individual humans and the social ability of the society on the whole changes 
over time as we learn more about our world, the social teachings of the Book of 
God are different from one era to the next.

The other point is that if I say the word be, I am not uttering the word of 
God.  But if the Messenger says the word be, this same word that I used, now 
becomes the Word of God.

 
 
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-13 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Therefore, the *importance* of the literal, perfect accuracy of the Qur'an may be overstated by the Muslim community. That's a totally seperate question. What you are saying about the Quran doesn't follow from what you are saying about the Gospels, especially given what the Bahai writings themselves say about the Quran.At least we agree that the inaccuracy of the Bible wasn't the most important quality of the Bible, since the Bible is still considered the Book (they are called People of the Book). If inaccuracy isn't the most important thing, then whyis accuracy the most important thing?

Therefore I propose that the concept ofaccurate or inaccurate isn't all that important to the Qur'an. This leaves open the door for the Aqdas.

What's more, as Susan mentioned, everyone was illiterate during the time of Jesus, so a "Book" similar to the Qur'an wasn't necessary for the people of that time.

I thinkyou are looking at the concept of "Book" with your present-day eyes, and not considering the history and condition of the people of the past.

My points void yourargument that "the Qur'an is wholly authentic therefore there is no need for the Aqdas".

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-13 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

"How can they [Christians] be the People of the Book if their Book [Gospel] was really not among them? I hope I answered that with the movie analogy. I wouldn't say that the book is not with them. But I would question the authenticity of the book.

How can the book be with them and at the same time be unauthentic? Do you mean that the characteristic that makestheGospel"the Book" is really something deeper than the authenticity of *the words* in the Book? If not, then in what way is the existing Gospel "the Book"?

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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-13 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't exist, by a God who is Just?
I think God also gave us a conscience, with an intellect, and criticalfaculties. We live in world where there are lots of religions and lotsof "books" out there. I don't think all of life is just a matter ofidentifying the right religion and then following it blindly. We areexposed to lots of different claims coming from lots of differentdirections and as human beings its our job to do the best we can withwhat we have. Continually, questioning and re-evaluating what we aretold to find the best decisions. And we have that responsibilitywhether we have a perfect book, or a flawed book, or wise parents, orfoolish parents, or good teachers or bad teachers.

You've only discussed free will. What about God Himself, how did He guide us? Before the revelation of the Qur'an, how did He guide the people? With a semi-true Book, or with a Book that was perfect forits time?
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-13 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The real question is how does the New Testament "The Gospel".

I see what you're saying. I think we are talking about two different things, so there are really 2 questions:

1. How is the New Testament "The Gospel"?2. How did existence of the New Testament qualify Christians as People of the Book? Or, in other words, how did God perfectly guide the people with "The New Testament"? (Unless you are suggesting that God didn't perfectly guide the people living after Jesus died because His Revelation, words of God to Him, weren't recorded.)

The Quran was a specific revelation given to Muhammad, and transmitted to the Muslim community and preserved by them.

Agreed. Therefore, "the Gospel" must be the Revelation of God given to Jesus. Both of us already agree that Jesus was recipient of the Revelation of God. I propose that what remained of the Gospel in the form of the New Testament was sufficient, *for them*, sufficient enough to make them the "the People of the Book". If it wasn't sufficient for them, then God left them without guidance after Jesus died. So from the beginning of time until Muhammad arrived (except for the people living while the old Prophets were alive), people were left without guidance? How can this be just?

But what I would say is that within the New Testament, within the Gospels, among
the words attributed to Jesus one could probably find many of the essential principles of the original Gospel.

Yes, and the existence of these essential principles in the New Testament was *perfectly* and *competely* suitable for the people living before Muhammad.

If some other alternative Christian group decided to throw together the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter, the Acts of John, and the Gospel of Mary in some other New Testament the same could probably be said of that grouping as well.

No, because Muhammad Baha'u'llahhave already come with the Revelation of God renewed.

Regards,
Hajir

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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-13 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

You've only discussed free will.Gilberto:I don't see why free will is an issue in the above?
Hajir:
What I mean is, why the sudden change in God's way? Why does everyone get an imperfect version of truth except the people who lived after 622AD? It is more plausible that everyone was equally guided by God throughout all of history. So, the New Testament was perfect truth until the Qur'an came, and "the only way to the Father".
Hajir:What about God Himself, how did He guide us? Before the revelation of the Qur'an, how did He guide the people? With a semi-true Book, or with a Book that was perfect for its time?Gilberto:
In hadith it says that the first thing God created was the aql, theintellect. He guided us by giving us a certain amount of sense. Overand over again, the Quran points to nature and talks about the signsfor those who reflect.
Hajir:
So, before the Qur'an was revealed and perfectly recorded, everyone else had only their aql/intellect to rely on for truth and guidance?
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Re: Hajir's questions: Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-13 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The real question is how does the New Testament "The Gospel".

I see what you're saying. I think we are talking about two different things, so there are really 2 questions:

The Quran was a specific revelation given to Muhammad, and transmitted to the Muslim community and preserved by them.

But what I would say is that within the New Testament, within the Gospels, among
the words attributed to Jesus one could probably find many of the essential principles of the original Gospel.

Yes, and the existence of these essential principles in the New Testament was *perfectly* and *competely* suitable for the people living before Muhammad.

No, because Muhammad Baha'u'llahhave already come with the Revelation of God renewed.

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

If I understand what Susan is saying, she is not claiming that Pauline Christianity was the recipient of some special divine favor or gift (charisma), but that charisma (the personal magnetism of Christ) was routinized, or institutionalized, through the New Testament, the Church, etc. In other words, without this routinization of charisma, most people would have no means of relating to the charisma of Christ. From this standpoint, it would largely be irrelevant whether the New Testament (as variously constructed), the Nag Hammadi tractates, or other Christian literature had produced the routinization.

Mark, If I understand what you are saying correctly, I think this is a very important point. Since we all agree that Jesus was the prophet of God, then the New Testament, in whatever form, did serve its purpose *perfectly* by routinizing the charisma of Jesus and establishing/proving Jesus as the prophet of God, to the people.
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam









 Scott's entitled to his opinion and should study issues from multiplesides, but if you are going to argue that the Quran which exists todayis changed from the original Quran and so the current Quran isincomplete, I don't think that position can be characterized as"pro-Islam" and it still seems pretty clearly inconsistent withstatements in the Bahai writings about the Quran.
Gilberto, I would agree that this position that the Qur'an is incomplete is just as anti-Islamic as believe that the Gospel is incomplete is anti-Christian.

One of the basic beliefs of the Baha'iFaith is Progressive Revelation, whichsays that none of the Books of God are complete-for-all-time,*even if*the original Book is unchanged.

** I guess now, your question comes down to this, and I need to think about it a while: Do the Baha'i writings really say that the Qur'an is absolutely the perfect Book of God, word-for-word, and that (1) all the revelation given to Muhammad is really in the Qur'an, and (2) that "other things" didn't creep into the Qur'an? **

Anyone, any ideas?


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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

** I guess now, your question comes down to this, and I need to think about it a while: Do the Baha'i writings really say that the Qur'an is absolutely the perfect Book of God, word-for-word, and that (1) all the revelation given to Muhammad is really in the Qur'an, and (2) that "other things" didn't creep into the Qur'an? **

Gilberto,

I thought about it a while, and here are some what i can think of:

1. Shoghi Effendi taught that religious truth is relative, therefore, none of the Books of God, including the writings of Baha'u'llah, contain all of God's guidance. What each of the Books do contain is the *perfectly appropriate* amount of guidance for their particular time. Therefore, The Gospel was perfectly appropriate until the coming of the Qur'an, which was perfectly appropriate until the coming of the Bayan, which was perfectly appropriate until the coming of the Aqdas.

2.Then any absolutist statements made in the writings must be taken in context. Shoghi Effendi does say that the Qur'an is authentic, and the Qur'an itself says that it is complete. But since religious truth is *relative* in nature (the only absolute is God Himself), then the statement that the Qur'an is authentic and that it is complete is *made in relation to what came before it*. In relation to the Gospel, the Qur'an is perfect, fully authentic, and the complete testament of God.

3. This two points above are backed up by history as well. There was division in early Islam about who's Qur'an was the really Qur'an. See the references below:

---

The second traditionin Usul Kafi which has been widely misinterpreted,states that what has been revealed to Prophet was as much as 17000 verses.Although this tradition is not rated authentic, there are twoexplanations for that. The first possibility mentioned by our scholarsis that, the verses of Quran were originally shorter, and when thecompanions compiled the Quran, they appended short verses and therebythe number of verses reduced without any change to content of Quran.The second possibility is that which was given by Shaikh Saduq (RA)who is the number one Shi'a scholar in the field of Hadith: "We say that so much of revelation has come down which is not embodied in the present Quran that if it were to be collected, its extent would undoubtedly be 17000 verses ... Although all
of them were revelation but they (the extra ones) are NOT a part of Quran. If they would be a part of Quran, it would surely have been included in the Quran we have."Shi'i reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, pp 78-79.The transcript of the Quran that Imam Ali wrote contained commentaryand hermeneutic interpretation (Tafsir and Ta'wil) from the HolyProphet some of which had been sent down as revelation but NOT as apart of the text of Quran. A small amount of such texts can be found insome traditions in Usul al-Kafi and else. These pieces of information wereDivine commentary of the text of Quran which was revealed along withQuranic verses but were NOT parts of Quran. Thu!
s the
commentary versesand Quranic verses could sum up to 17000 verses. As Sunnis know, HadithQudsi is also revelation, but they are not a part of Quran. In fact Qurantestifies that anything that Prophet said was revelation. Allah Almightysaid in Quran about Prophet Muhammad that: "Nor does he (Muhammad) speak out of his desire. It is no less than a revelation that is revealed." (Quran 53:3-4).Thus all the speeches of Prophet were revelation, and surely the speechesof Prophet was not limitted to Quran. It includes interpretation of Quran(part of which were direct revelation) as well as his Sunnah (part of whichwere indirect revelation).
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

therefore, none of the Books of God, including the writings of Baha'u'llah, contain all of God's guidance.

This isn't really true, because since we are living in the time of the Baha'u'llah, I can say that the writings of Baha'u'llah *do* contain *all* of God's guidance for us.

Follow my logic?
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto,

Is there a point, a comment, or questionyou made yesterday or today that I haven't responded to? I just want to make sure I didn't miss anything. I hope to get your thoughtful responses to some of the unanswered questions I've asked you too.

Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

So I would say that since the Bahai writings distinguish between theQuran and the Bible and say that the Quran is entirely authentic(while not saying the same about the Bible) it seems like that wouldrule out a Bahai from accepting a "higher criticism" type of approach"notwithstanding the opinion of certain historians".

I guess you are right. The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic. But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out. The missing pieces are in the writings of Baha'u'llah.
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Even the Baha'i Writings themselves speak of the Quran as being unadulterated. So, the question remains, if the Quran, which is the updated (in the sense of accuracy) version of the same Revelation of the past, and it hasn't become tainted over the years, why do we need another Revelation? Add the "Seal of the Prophets" argument, and there's not much reason to think of the Baha'i Faith as a continuation.

Hi Ben, I agree that this is the main question.

But I believe this question is directly tied intothe questions I posted earlier.

However, I have not been able to clearly understand, and therefore not been able to coherently communicate the answer to these questions. Here they are:

"How can they [Christians]be the People of the Book if their Book [Gospel]was really not among them? How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't exist, by a God who is Just? Since the time of the birth of the human race, God sent prophets to the people, and each Messenger was sent with a Book, according to the Glorious Qur'an. How is it that God's Book was continually lost?... What makes the Muslims of Arabia so much different from all the other peoples of the world that they were the only exception to this throughout all of history?"

Clearly, the situation is quite complicated.

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

I think an approach to the answer involves admitting that the *authority* of the Gospel was deeper, more profound, more spiritualthan its literal, perfect accuracy. Therefore, the literal, perfect accuracy of the Qur'an may be overstated by the Muslim community.

Regards,
HajirHajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Ben, I agree that this is the main question.

But I believe this question is directly tied intothe questions I posted earlier.

However, I have not been able to clearly understand, and therefore not been able to coherently communicate the answer to these questions. Here they are:

Clearly, the situation is quite complicated.

Regards,
Hajir

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Re: Interesting thread

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Let me rephrase that,it didn't come out the way Imeant itto:

The approach to answering these questions first involves admitting that the *authority* of the Gospel was deeper, more profound, more spiritual than its apparent inaccuracy.

Therefore, the *importance* of the literal, perfect accuracy of the Qur'an may be overstated by the Muslim community.

Regards,
HajirHajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Ben, I agree that this is the main question.

But I believe this question is directly tied intothe questions I posted earlier.

However, I have not been able to clearly understand, and therefore not been able to coherently communicate the answer to these questions. Here they are:

Clearly, the situation is quite complicated.

Regards,
Hajir

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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out. The missing pieces are in the writings of Baha'u'llah.

It all seemslike a continuous learning process. My own statement above doesn't sit well with me.

I guess if I want tobe true to the message of the Baha'i Revelation, I have to stay away from summarizing something as complex as the relationship between the Qur'an and the Aqdas into a single sentence.

Regards,
Hajir
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RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

I think based on the Writings of the Guardian, we know that "The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic." is true, at least this is how I understand it at the present time.

Now to my statement"But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out."No, I don't think this is accurate. Come to think of it, Baha'u'llah says that each Manifestation revealed a Book based on the capacity of its audience, so the Qur'an was perfect for its time, and its contentshaven't changed since then. 

Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
" I guess you are right. The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic.But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was leftout."Dear Hajjir,Do we really know this? If so, on what basis?warmest, SusanThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediat!
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The larger point is that Bahais are different from one another just asMuslims are different from one another. And so if you have a "badBahai" and a "good Muslim" it is best to let God judge between them.Just because someone is a "Bahai" that shouldn't necessarily overruleother considerations. All of us are just trying to do the right thingto the best of our ability and understanding. And personally, I'm notsure that the "names" are the important thing.

Agreed. This even applies equally to agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, or Hindus.
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

In the case of Christianity, the New Testament actually contains onlya very small set of words attributed to Jesus. Jesus only taught forabout 3 years, partially in secret, and even towards the end of hisministry his closest disciples still didn't totally understandeverything he was talking about. Paul's words make up more of theBible than any other person's, including Jesus. Paul never met Jesusin the flesh. And actually persecuted the early Christians until hehad his experience on the road to Damascus. He didn't even spend muchtime with the disciples who knew Jesus (out of 13 or so years, hemight have spent 2 weeks with a small group of them in Jerusalem).James had a different interpretation from Paul's and he was Jesus' ownbrother and the head of the church in Jerusalem. And we know thatthere were many other non-Pauline groups in existence which could alsoclaim to be authentic.
I will assume for the sake of argument that your description above is historically 100% accurate. So do you propose that the advent of Jesus was basically useless and was not a guide in any way to the people? You yourself agreed that SOME FORMS of Christianity to really convey the essence of what Jesus taught: One God, Oneness of humanity, etc. Did these Christians accidentally come to believe these things? Or did they come to believe these things based on one of the versions of the contemporary Gospel? Who guided mankind from the death of Jesus until the manifestation of Muhammad? Do you really think we were left alone by God during this time?

In the case of Islam, the Quran consists of words which were spoken byMuhammad (saaws) . And you might not like them, but our knowledge ofthe prophet is also supplemented by hadith.

I don't think whether or not I like them is the issue. The issue is, how realistic is it really that God, who is supposedly infinite, compressed all His knowledge into one single Book we call the Qur'an? I believe since God's knowledge is infinite, so too are His Books. In a thousand years or so, God will continue revealing His Book where He left off with the Kitabi Aqdas.

I think it is easier to make a case that Islam accurately representsthe teachings of Muhammad (saaws) than one can argue that modern-dayChristianity represents the teachings of Jesus. In the latter case,there is alot more distance, and seperation and gaps.

I believe unity is one of the most fundamental principles of God. Islam was disunited as soon asMuhammad passed away. There is no logical way we humanscan unite the Shi'a with the Sunni, let alone unite the whole world. Their differences are too fundamental. Therefore, God needs to intervene to bring about the unity of mankind: This is the goal of the Baha'i Revelation.
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

G: No, but I would say the accuracy and faithfulness of the message has been significantly compromised.

So on what basis do you accept the validity of Jesus as a prophet of God?

Most religions are positive in terms of the impact theymake on society. At the same time, most religions are wrong. (teachingfalse or incorrect things )

How odd, now all religions are wrong except correct adherence to the Qur'an? So were people destined to be wrong before the Qur'an was revealed?

On the other hand, I would say that NONE of these religions are WRONG. They were, each one of them,RIGHT for their particular time. The only fair and just analysis would be, in my view,to say that inthe time of Jesus, a perfect record, perfect transmission of accurate words and lifeof Jesus were not necessary for the spiritual salvation of humankind. Therefore, the record of the Gospel was established by God for the salvation of humankind until such a time that humankind grew to such a state of spiritual maturity that a perfect record of the life and teachings of the Prophet were critical for the well-being of humankind.This became evident when the Book of the Gospel led people more towardcorruption than it did to Truth. The people didn't reach their lowBECAUSE of the Bible. They got there because the people grew above and beyond the potential of the Bible to guide them.

I make the same assessment of Islam. When the 1800's rolled in, society changed in such a way that causedthe (1) internal disunity of Islam, and (2) the misinterpretations of the Qur'an made by the Muslim doctors, became a source for the impediment for the continual growth of humankind.

Is there a more fair and just assessment of the people who lived in the dispensation of Jesus and in the dispensation ofMuhammad than this?

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Muslims have the Quran (which was spoken by Muhammad) and have volumes of hadith (which are an extensive detailed record of what Muhammad said and did ondifferent occasions). So Muslims have more extensive, more directinformation about what Muhammad said and did and taught thanChristians have about what Jesus said, and did, and taught.And so Muslims can be more confident that Islam represents Muhammad'steachings than Christians can be that "Christianity" represents Jesus'teachings.

Before I respond, let me be clear that I would like Baha'is on this list to speak up if the content of my emails have traces of contention and argumentation. Since this is categorically forbidden by Baha'u'llah, it would not be right to argue FOR Baha'u'llah in a manner that is really against the spirit of Baha'u'llah.

Now, toour friend Gilberto'scomment above, from whom I'm learning a lot:

Do you know that Baha'u'llah revealed 16,000 Tablets and Books over the course of His ministry? So, the Book of God in this dispensation is from 16,000 - 48,000 pages long, ifon average eachTablet is 1-3 pages long. A more frequently encountered statement is that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is more than 100 volumes, each volume at about 400-1000 pages, or about 40,000-100,000 pages in total. And this excludes the interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, who were so designated by the Pen itself.

So if extensiveness of the Qur'an is a criteria, then the authority of theRevelation of Baha'u'llah is unquestionable.

I am only saying this inresponse to your comparison of the extensiveness of the words of Muhammad versus the words of Jesus.

Using yourownlogic, Baha'is would be confident that they have a better understanding of the teaching of Muhammad than Muslims themselves do.

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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

But in the case of Christianity, there was significant disagreementabout what the words of Jesus even were... [evidence for disagreement]
In the case of Islam, even sunnis and shias have the same Quran, andthe Quran is intact.
So again, the kinds of problems I'm talking about within Christianityare very very different from the relatively minor technicaldifferences which might exist among Islamic rulings.
Gilberto, I think this is your most important point, and it is a very well thought out point that seems to me to be pretty convincing. And I like how you didn't capitalize your S's to point out how minor the differences between Shia and Sunnis are... But I hope one day more Muslims in your community will feel this way, and God Willing then we will see a transformation in the Muslim society.

Yet, what I cannot understand is what would happen if we turned the clocks back to the time before the prophethood of Muhammad, the time to which Muhammad refers in His call to the followers of the Gospel as "The People of the Book".

How can they be the People of the Book if their Book was really not among them?
How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't exist, by a God who is Just? Since the time of the birth of the human race, God sent prophets to the people, and each Messenger was sent with a Book, according to the Glorious Qur'an. How is it that God's Book was continually lost? Are we humans that forgetful? What makes the Muslims of Arabia so much different from all the other peoples of the world that they were the only exception to this throughout all of history?

May God's breeze continue to blow over us, for His guidance is never ending.
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Using your own logic, Baha'is would be confident that they have a better understanding of the teaching of Muhammad than Muslims themselves do.No. Not at all. What you might be able to say is that Bahais can bemore confident that they have a better understanding of what Bahaullahtaught than Muslims have of what Muhammad taught.You're right Gilberto. I misread your previous message.
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto,

I think it is because we view society as always advancing. In this latest phase of human development (commenced with the proclamation of Baha'u'llah), the time of conflict and contentionhas come to an end. We believe that the next stage in the development of our society is globalization (not the Western form of Globalization), or in Baha'u'llah's words, the transformation ofthe earth,whose inhabitantsare currently in constant conflict,into one which is"but one country and mankind its citizens." Baha'u'llah states that the world is in grave danger, and unless and until all the people of the world unite,our peace and security is in jeapardy. Yet, we are optimistic, since Baha'u'llah promised that we will *definitely* achieve unity in what He called "the Most Great Peace", under the shadow of His "New World Order".

So, all conflict, including conflict between Sunnis and Shia, is believed to be a condition that no longer has a place in our world.

Regards,
Hajir
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Over and over again, there have been several Bahais who have pointedto the sunni-shia split as a decisive problem which can't be resolvedin any way. Maybe not all, but certainly many.PeaceGilbertoOn 10/11/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, At 01:28 PM 10/11/2005, you wrote: .I've said this before, but especially given the ways in which Bahais try to reconcile the theological differences between Christians, Muslims and Buddhists and treat them as if they were no big deal, it is INCREDIBLY bizzare that Bahais would see the differences between sunnis and shias as insurmountable. I think you are over-generalizing about Baha'is. I have almost never known any Baha'is who have regarded the differences between Sunni and Shi'ih as insurmountable. As fa!
r as I am
concerned, I always assume difference - whether between individuals, cultures, subcultures, formal organizations, religious categories (Judaism, the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) or religious subcategories. I also do not assume that similar terminology is equivalent to similar meanings or that different terminology corresponds with different meanings. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

I wouldn't say that the Gospel is simplistically NOT among the Christians. But is imperfectlyamong them. The New Testament contains some words and teachings whichprobably did come from Jesus (as). But it also contains things whichcome from Paul. And it also contains things attributed to James,Peter, John, Matthew, and others.

(1) Based on yourown admission above, the guidance contained within the Gospel, which based on your own statement is a subset of the existing Gospel (i.e. take out the"commercials breaks of untruth" interspersed in between) was legitimate enough ofa guidance to the peoplefor the Qur'an to call those people who followed it the "People of the Book".

(2) You also state that there is no real need for Baha'u'llah because the Book of God Qur'anshould be sufficient for all humanity from now until the end of time.

How can point (1) and point (2) both be valid at the same time?

Muhammaddidn't take out the "commercial breaks of untruths" out of the existing Gospel to reveal the True Gospel. Muhammad revealed a Book which is NOT a subset of the existing Gospel. The Qur'an is really a NEW BOOK, it is not the Torah, and it is not the Gospel.

Why is it that you grant God the permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to the Prophet Muhammad, but not grant Him permission to reveal a NEW BOOK to Baha'u'llah?

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-11 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles beforethe Gospels were written. The religious authorities of the day werethreatened by Christ, before the Gospels were written. etc.

I'm not sure if this is significant. The Qur'an wasn't compiled when the Prophet Muhammad gained popularity either, no?
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Power of Unity !

2005-10-10 Thread Hajir Moghaddam







Baha'u'llah wrote:

"the whole of the human race can be illumined with the LIGHT OF UNITY, and the remembrance of His Name is able to set on fire the hearts of all men, and BURN AWAY THE VEILS that intervene between them and His glory."

"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth."

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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

So from a Bahai perspective one can believe that there are accidental misquotes and modifications in the contemporary Quran?
No, based on my understanding, there are no accidental misquotes or accidental modifications in the contemporary Qur'an (unlike the contemporary Bible). Yet, these accidents in the Bible did not withhold, or diminish, or affectthe guidance of God to the people from the beginning of the dispensation of Jesus until the revelation of Muhammad (Qur'an). Yeah, I see what you are saying. But personally I wouldn't be as generous. I would say mainstream Christianity represents a significant departure from Jesus' original teaching. And I think Paul was largely responsible for the shift.
Please educate me, what exactly do you mean by saying that St. Paul was largely responsible for the shift from the original teachings in the Gospel?

Do you mean that St. Paul was responsible for modifying the content of the contemporary Gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)?

Or do you mean that St. Paul was responsible for incorrect interpretation of the contemporary Gospel?Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

If a Bahai is saying that the laws of Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on some level disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldomacknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, even though I have not thought this through yet, I will take your word for it. So if the Baha'i belief in the inapplicability of the Islam lawto our day is disparaging, why isn't the Muslim belief that the true Gospel is lost disparaging as well (since Christians believe in the validity of their Gospel)?

Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto: But that's not the contradiction. If a Bahai is saying that the lawsof Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on somelevel disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldomacknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.

Even some of the writings of Baha'u'llah are not applicable to our age, so we apply this same principle to ourselves. To me, thisproves that the belief in Progressive Revelation is not meant to disparage any community:

For example, the command to shave one's head after pilgrimage, in His Tablet of the Hajj. Baha'u'llah modified this rule in the Kitab-i-Aqdas by stating that one should never shave his head.

Even the command not to shave one's head itself is not applicable to our age, because the Universal House of Justice has yet to activate it.
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hi Gilberto,

Nader Saiedi, author of Logos and Civilization, sums up Progressive Revelation pretty well (pages 11-14), in my view. I'm interested in your comments of the following:

The materialistic logic is obviously rejected by Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah equally rejects the exclusivism of fundamentalist religion by affirming the unity of all the Manifestations of God...

The fact that Baha'u'llah's teachings do not fit the exclusivist model of religious fundamentalism does not mean that His vision corresponds to a version of postmodern pluralism. Unlike postmodernist assumption of the RANDOMNESS of religion, PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONassigns a clearpurpose, meaning, direction, and logic to the divine revelations in relation to each other and in religious history. Religions areNEITHERRANDOM expressions of human cultural construction,NOR STATIC AND CLOSED reflections of a chaotic, nonbinding, and random divine reality. They are not merely different and incommensurable ways of approaching or experiencing the divine.On the principle of progressive revelation, all religions are EQUALLY TRUE and VALID precisely because they are all SUCCESSIVE EXPRESSIONS of one and the same divine Reality and of teh same divine plan for humanity.

The diverse revelations of the specific Manifestations of God
ARE NOT INSULAR OR UNRELATED OR CULTURALLY DETERMINED
but
INSEPARABLE, PROGRESSIVE, AND TELEOLOGICAL.

That interrelationship and sequence of all the divine revelations becomes the very logic of the divine plan for the collective advancement of humankind.

In this logic, acceptance of **ONE** Manifestation implies acceptance of **ALL** the others, and rejection of **ONE** implies rejection of **ALL**. The essential truth expressed in all the religions becomes accessible through the recognition of the most recent Manifestation of God.
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RE: A couple of questions

2005-10-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Susan and Max,

I have heard that the only time Baha'u'llah uses the work "kafir" in the Iqan is when he quotes the Qur'an on page 117 of the Persian (Egypt 1934) and provides His commentary ("pas la'nateh khoda bar kafir-an"). From my understanding, the concept of "kafir" is not part of the Baha'i Revelation, it has been abrogated with "jihad".

Hajir
Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"all those who adhered to Jesus or Moses and did not cometoembrace His Cause, were considered Kafir in the estimation of God. (-Iqanfor details)"Dear Max,Since not everyone here knows Arabic why don't you point us to those exactpassages where the word 'kafir' appears in the Iqan?warmest, SusanThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have rec!
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RE: A couple of questions

2005-10-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Susan and Max,

I have heard that the only time Baha'u'llah uses the work "kafir" in the Iqan is when he quotes the Qur'an on page 117 of the Persian (Egypt 1934) and provides His commentary ("pas la'nateh khoda bar kafir-an"). From my understanding, the concept of "kafir" is not part of the Baha'i Revelation, it has been abrogated with "jihad".

Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Re: Progressive Revelation

I still see it as a contradiction or at least, I haven't seen a satisfactory resolution.
Gilberto, What part of Saiedi's explanation I posted do you find contradictory or unresolved?

Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Bahai believes that many of those commandments [of the Qur'an] are actually not valid, and unsuitable and inappropriate for the modern day, while claiming that thier own laws ARE suitable for the modern-day, then that would be a very clear example of Bahais claiming to be superior to Islam. You might be nice and polite about it. But I don't see how you can really get around it.

Gilberto, I think what you are getting hung up on [regarding superiority], is that you see Muhammad the Qur'an separate and distinct from Baha'u'llah and the Aqdas (general definition refering to all of Baha'u'llah's writings). If they were really distinctly separate from one another, then yes, I see the sense of superiority that one would not be able to get around.

But the Baha'i concept of Progessive Revelation states that the Aqdas is actually a continuation of the Qur'an, that they are really inseparable. Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are likewise seen as two Characters on the same team, in the same story.

Thus, one cannot concluding that the Aqdas is superior to the Qur'an ... **How can something be superior over itself**? The only reason that the Aqdas is more applicable to our age is because the Book of God was revealed in 600's AD (Qur'an), with an intermission of about 1000 years, and then continued in the 1800's AD (Bayan Aqdas). Those parts revealed in the 1800's take into account the changes in the society and the condition of man during the 1000 year intermission.

Regards,
Hajir
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Ibn-i-Arabi and 1260AH (1844AD)

2005-09-30 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hushidar Motlagh in "I Shall Come Again" references Bisharati Kutubi Asmani (page 281) as follows:

"The time of the advent of the Mihdi [i.e. the Bab to Baha'is] is equal to half of the smallest number divisible by the numbers 1 through 9." - Shaykh Ibn-i Arabi

Do the math and the number comes to 2520, half of which is 1260. The Bab declared Himself in 1260 AH to Mullah Husayn.

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Re: The Greatest Name the Bayan's 152 as A-H-B (read arabic right-to-left)

2005-09-29 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hi Fariborz,

No, the logic is actually based on the fact that Arabic numbers are read left-to-right while Arabic letters are read from right-to-left. So if you tranform the numbers 1-5-2 into Letters you get A-H-B. Since Arabic is read from right-to-left, you read it as BaHA, not AHaB. (Note there is no letter for the first *a* in B*a*ha in Arabic).

Regards,
Hajir

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

5) Saiedi in "Logos and Civilization" points out the significance of the numberic value of 152. Baha'u'llah signed the Kitab-i-Iqan and some other Tablets with this number. He points that this signified "BahA" in Arabic. The numberic value of "B" is 2, "a" is an accent and does not have a number, "H" is 5, and "A" is 1.Since Arabic is written from right-to-left, Baha'u'llah signed the Iqan as 152, or BHA.Saiedi proposes thatthe reason Baha'u'llah chose tosign His name in its Numeric Value is because the Bab promised that the Promised One would complete the Bayan, which was left incomplete. The Bayan was supposed to be 19 chapters with 19 sections, but the Bab only completed11chapters of 19 sections, so the remaining is 8 chapters of 19 sections. If you multiply 8X19, you get 152.
It's very interesting. Just one thought. Even though Arabic words are written from right to left, the numbers are written from left to right. Does that have an effect on the logic above.
Fariborz

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Re: Glory of God in the Arabic New Testament

2005-09-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

All,

Below are a few other verses ofthe New Testament that directly mention "the Glory of God". Since therevised versions of the Arabic Bible are readily available on the internet, I did verify that theycurrently use the wordMajd'u'llah. I assume the 1933 versions of the Bible used "Baha'u'llah" for these terms as well. If not incovenience, please confirm.

John 11:40 - Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the Glory of God (Majd'u'llah, Baha'u'llah)?"

Romans 5:2 - And we rejoice in the hope of the Glory of God (Majd'u'llah, Baha'u'llah).
1 Corinthians 10:31 - So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the Glory of God (Majd'u'llah, Baha'u'llah).
Still, the verse in Revelation 21:23 is the most striking. Why?

It is the very section about:

- "The New Jerusalem",
- the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth.
- "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them."
- "God himself will be with them."
- "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Baha'u'llah proclaimed He brought the New World Order, one that would replace today's weak and crumbling order. Revelation 21:5 "I am making everything New!"... "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Then John says that the "loud voice from the throne" says : "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life."

Finally, John looks into the city but doesn't see a temple in it, but acknowledges that Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple. It doesn't need a temple at all, because Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God, gives it light, while the Lamb is the lampfrom which theGlory of God, Baha'u'llah, shines.

The New City is New because the Glory of God, Baha'u'llah,does the following:

1. replaces the sun and the moon
2.guides the nations, makes them honorable and glorious
3. permits the kings and rules to be splendorous
4. enables the gates to always be open (since the Glory always shines and never sets)
5. prevents impurity from every entering the City

All these topics are covered in detail in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Regards,
Hajir

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Baha'i Faith as Fulfillment of the Mission of Islam

2005-09-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam








Awell organized website that reviews factors that make the Baha'i Faith the fulfillment of Islam's mission, and defines purpose of the Seal of the Prophets, the Prophet Muhammad. See http://bci.org/islam-bahai/

* Promise #1. Islam's Goal:

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion."- Qur'an 5:3 
and
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).- Qur'an 3:85 


* Promise #2. Prophet Muhammad's Mission:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets.- Qur'an 33:40 

* Fulfillment - Prerequisite and Preparation:

"But, O my brother, when a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading to the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse and purify his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. 


He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error.

That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk." 
- Baha'u'llah Kitab-i-Iqan 192
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Re: Glory of God in the Arabic New Testament

2005-09-09 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

--[Why did Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri use the title "Baha'u'llah"?]There are about two billion Christians in the world.There are over a billion Muslims. I'm NOT trying to accuse anyone ofthe Bahai figures of being cynical or dishonest but if I were going tomake a popular world religion I wouldn't just ignore Biblicalprophecies just because I'm in a part of the world where there are fewChristians.

Hi Gilberto,

The primary proof for Baha'u'llahareHisWritings,the transformative power He had over His companions and followers, and the fact that His principles,layed out over 150 years ago,are beingcarried out bypeople who are ironically still unaware of Him.

1. Some of His Writingsguide andshine Glory/Bahaupon the individual and the nations:

A) "In all matters moderation is desirable. If a thing is carried to excess, it will prove a source of evil."
B) "Know, verily, the heart wherein the least remnant of envy yet lingers, shall never attain My everlasting dominion, nor inhale the sweet savors of holiness breathing from My kingdom of sanctity."

C) "The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God's holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife."

2. And others give us a glimpse into His Unique relationship with God Almighty, and instill in us a sense of awe for God and His Manifestation.

Baha'u'llah creates a new people whoshare with Himthe qualitiesof His Own Eyes, Ears, and Tongue eyes that only see God, ears that only perceive God's Word, and tongues that only mention God's remembrance.

"O **EYES** of this Temple! Look not upon the heavens and that which they contain, nor upon the earth and them that dwell thereon, for We have created you to behold Our own Beauty: See it now before you! Withhold not your gaze therefrom, and deprive not yourselves of the Beauty of your Lord, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Erelong shall We bring into being through you keen and penetrating**EYES** that will contemplate the manifold signs of their Creator and turn away from all that is perceived by the people of the world. Through you shall We bestow the power of**VISION** upon whomsoever We desire, and lay hold upon those who have deprived themselves of this gracious bounty. These, verily, have drunk from the cup of delusion, though they perceive it not.

O**EARS** of this Temple! Purge yourselves from all idle clamour and hearken unto the voice of your Lord. He, verily, revealeth unto you, from the Throne of glory, that there is none other God save Me, the All-Glorious, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Erelong shall We bring into being through you pure and undefiled**EARS** which will heed the Word of God and that which hath appeared from the Dayspring of the Utterance of your Lord, the All-Merciful. They shall assuredly**PERCEIVE** the sweet accents of Divine Revelation that proceed from these most blessed and hallowed precincts.

O**TONGUE** of this Temple! We, verily, have created thee through Our name, the All-Merciful, have taught thee whatsoever had remained concealed in the Bayn, and have bestowed upon thee the power of **UTTERANCE**, that thou mayest **MAKE MENTION** of Mine exalted Self amidst My creatures. **PROCLAIM**, then, this wondrous and mighty Remembrance, and fear not the manifestations of the Evil One. Thou wert called into being for this very purpose by virtue of My transcendent and all-compelling command. Through thee have We unloosed the **TONGUEOF UTTERANCE** to expound all that hath been, and We shall again, by My sovereign power, unloose it to **SPEAK** of that which is yet to come. Erelong shall We bring into being through thee eloquent **TONGUES** that will praise and extol Me amongst the Concourse on high and amidst the peoples of the world. Thus have the verses of God been revealed, and thus hath it been decreed by the Lord of all names and at!
tributes.
Thy Lord, verily, is the True One, the Knower of things unseen. Nothing whatsoever shall prevent these **TONGUES** from magnifying their Creator. Through them, all created things shall arise to glorify the Lord of names and to bear witness that there is none other God save Me, the All-Powerful, the Most-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Nor shall those who make mention of Me **SPEAK** aught unless they be inspired by this**TONGUE** from its lofty station. Few, however, are they who understand! No **TONGUE** is there that speaketh not the praises of its Lord and maketh not mention of His Name. Amongst the people, however, are those who understand and utter praises, and those who utter praises, yet understand not."

-Baha'u'llah, Surih of the Temple 19-21
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Re: ABS studies paper, did you gie it yet?

2005-08-31 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Ron,

Unfortunately theABS session was not recorded.

HajirIskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Ron: I suspect that her internet access has been cut off by hurricane Katrina but I hope  pray that she herself and her son are safe, healthy, and secure. This was a very devastating storm. Good wishes, IskandarQuoting Ursus Maximus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Hello Dr. Maneck, Did you give your talk to a the ABS meeting, or is it still in the future? I am still hoping to get an audio recording of the talk. Ron  The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other le!
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-29 Thread Hajir Moghaddam









Gilberto on 8/28 writes:

 Any orthodox Muslim site lookingcomprehensively atthe Bahai faith is going to be critical. It
would disagree with the Bahai understanding of "seal of the prophets" will disagree with how
the Bahai faith understands Islamic law, the nature of the mahdi, and other topics. It will view
Bahaullah and the Bab, not as Manifestations of God but as ordinary human beings who
taught certain principles which simply aren't true.

HiGilberto,

You state that an orthodox Muslim will likely believe thatBaha'u'llah "taughtcertain principles which simply aren't true". Do you actually believe this yourself? Do you believe that the Baha'i views on the nature of the Mahdi, the meanings of the "seal ofthe prophets", and the notion thatGod continues to send Messengers"simply aren't true"?

Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering

2005-08-29 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I've never seen a Muslim attack a Bahai (physically, verbally, or otherwise).PeaceGilberto
Gilberto,
I did a search in google.com for "Islam Discussion", clicked on the first link that popped up, IslamOnline.net, and search the discussions area for the word "Bahai". I got a number of hits and one oftheposts says:
"Bahai faith is a violation of Islam. It is rejected by Islam. Bahai is neither Jewish nor Christian. Bahais have a well-documented history of acting as a Zionist fifth column throughout the Muslim world. The pseudo-Islamic sect has its headquarters in the Israeli port town of Haifa, where its founder, The Bab, a Russian spy executed in Tabriz (Iran) in 1848, is alleged to be buried.Like by the Qadianis in Pakistan, Bahis have been used by Israel for espionage work in a number of Muslim countries. During the deposed Reza Shahs rule in Iran, they acted as links with the Zionist State, playing a major role in the exploitation of the countrys resources. The occupied number of key positions and dominated the banking services. The Shah only trusted Bahais to hold top positions in dreaded Savak, his US/Israeli trained intelligence network responsible for the death and torture of thousands of Irani
Muslims.Bahai organization was banned in Egypt (1960) even it was banned in Islamic Iran. Many Bahais fleeing with the Shah from Iran in 1979 chose to remain in Egypt under the patronage of the late Anwar Sadat who daughter was married to one of Shahs sons. These days, the Bahais are scattered in Israel, Europe and US, and are actively working for the destruction of Islamic Iran."
Don't you think cries of "espionage" at the least inviteMuslimsto harrassBaha'is? I ask you to reply to the author and thediscussion boardand condemn this post. If you post as a Muslim your message will come across much better than if a Baha'i responds to it. Plus, since its a Muslim discussion groups I am not sure howappropriate it would befor a Baha'i to write there.
Thanks,Hajir
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Suffering and the Messenger's Warning

2005-08-28 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hasan wrote on 8/23:

Does the suffering of Manifestations caused by a particular group of people
(religion, sect, etc.) is a real reason which causes suffering to the entire world
(including innocent people)?
This quote of the Guardian is related to this issue:
Islam, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bah'u'llh, is, if
we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of
this invincible and triumphant Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred
years of abject misery and dispersion which they, who only for the short space
of three years persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still
enduring. We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe,
how severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than fifty
years, have, "at every moment tormented with a fresh torment" Him Who is
the Father, and who have, in addition, made His Herald--Himself a
Manifestation of God--to quaff, in such tragic circumstances, the cup of
martyrdom. Hasan,

Shoghi Effendididn't make upthiswarning. The Guardianonly echos thewarning made by God Himself in the Qur'an. God says that He is the one who punishes the peopleafter He sends His Messenger. "...nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle." Qur'an 17:15

"Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle. " Qur'an 17:15 (Yusuf Ali)

Please read the stories of the Prophets in the Old Testament and the Qur'an. A punishment always accompanies their coming. And isn't this one of the definitions of a Messenger, to warn people of an impending disaster?

It seems thatthisis justthe system God uses, and will continue to use,since He says thatHis methodwill never change. "...no change wilt thou find in God's way (of dealing): No turning off wilt thou find in God's way (of dealing)." Qur'an 35:43 (Yusuf Ali)

So we know that coupled with the coming of the twin Messengers of God, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, God has sent His punishment, chastisement, and wrath.

Of course, we Baha'ismust continuously workto eliminate suffering, war, genocide, and all evilinthe worldthat cause suffering. This is really the ultimate goal of the Baha'i Faith, to bring aboutthe Most Great Peace. "We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations." Baha'u'llah.

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Request you help

2005-07-20 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Hi Gilberto,

1. We are kind of divertingfromthe initial question posted. The question was "where in the hadith does Muhammad say 'I am all the prophets' "? The answeris its found in the Shi'ih hadith. Baha'u'llah does not 'make up' the quote butuses a source that the uncle of the Babwas familiar with (he was a Shi'ih).

2. Now it seems we're discussion a second question. How does Baha'u'llah interpret the meaning ofthis Shi'ih hadith?Can the second hadith ("by the term 'Prophets' I am meant") lead to the same interpretation? In other words, had Baha'u'llah written the IqanquotingAnas ibn Maalik's transmission("by the term 'Prophets' I am meant"), would the passage in the Iqan be any different?I would sayno, the passage in the Iqan would be the same.

Here is the Iqan passage again. In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah writes:

From these statements therefore it hath been made evident and manifest that should a Soul in the End that knoweth no end be made manifest, and arise to proclaim and uphold a Cause which in the Beginning that hath no beginning another Soul had proclaimed and upheld, it can be truly declared of Him Who is the Last and of Him Who was the First that they are one and the same, inasmuch as both are the Exponents of one and the same Cause. For this reason, hath the Point of the Baynmay the life of all else but Him be His sacrifice!likened the Manifestations of God unto the sun which, though it rise from the Beginning that hath no beginning until the End that knoweth no end, is none the less the same sun. Now, wert thou to say, that this sun is the former sun, thou speakest the truth; and if thou sayest that this sun is the return of that sun, thou also speakest the truth. Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term last is applicable to the f!
irst,
and the term first applicable to the last; inasmuch as both the first and the last have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith. Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term Seal of the Prophets to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: I am all the Prophets? Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus? Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: I am the first Adam be incapable of saying also: I am the last Adam? For even as He regarded Himself to be the First of the Prophetsthat is Adamin like manner, the Seal of the Prophets is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the First of the Prophets, !
He
likewise is their Seal.

Regards,
Hajir

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Re: Request you help

2005-07-20 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Gilberto,

In the Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah quotes this hadith - the link for which was provided by Khazeh -verbatim:"amma al-nabiyoona faana".

Go to http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/KI/and download the Kitab-i-Iqan in Adobe format, flip to page 113, and it is in the middle of the page in double quotes.

Shoghi Effendi translates this verse as "I am all the Prophets" found on page 153 of the English. Go to http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-5.html.

Regards,
Hajir
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Re: Request you help

2005-07-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam









Hi all,
I thought Gilberto was saying the same thing Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan (sited in Gleanings):
"In terms of the rest of your argument, there are certainly passages inhadith and Quran which talk about a certain degree of closenessbetween the prophets, and between Muhammad and particular prophets."
Gilberto,
What do you think Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan that is not reconcilable with the hadith and the Qur'an?
"I'm not sure that their meanings are necessarily the same aseverything implie[d] by Bahais when they attribute to Muhammad thestatement "I am all the prophets"."
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Re: Request you help

2005-07-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam









--And personally what I would say is that to me it didn't seem like theQuran was claiming what Khazeh was attributing to it. But whether weare looking at what the Quran actually says on this point, or at whatMuslims tend to claim, I think botht of them are actually still moreconcrete, more literally true, more supportable than the Bahai claimsabout "I am the prophets".--
Did I miss the paragraph in which Khazeh said that there is a passage in the Qur'an "I am all the prophets"?
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Re: Request you help

2005-07-19 Thread Hajir Moghaddam









there is no reason based in Quran or hadith to think that Muhammadsaid "I am all the prophets."
It is clearly in the Hadith of the Shi'a. 
http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar25/a2.html
Are you saying that you don'tbelieve the Shi'a hadithis authentic?
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RE: question fm another list (tackled in depth)

2005-06-08 Thread Hajir Moghaddam

Dear Khazeh,

I must comment thatthe confidence and certitude in your responses has inspired meto behave so,not only in my faith-related interactions, but also in my professional and educational life. 

This _expression_ of certitudewhich you always manifest,is applicable to all aspects of life.

Thanks.
Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Also the Hindu references to the two stations of the MANIFESTATIONEarth, water, flame, air, ether, life, and mind,And individuality- those eightMake up the showing of Me, Manifest.These be my lower Nature; learn the higher,Whereby, thou Valiant One! this UniverseIs, by its principle of life, produced;Whereby the worlds of visible things are bornAs from a Yoni. Know! I am that womb:I make and I unmake this Universe:Than me there is no other Master, Prince!No other Maker! All these hang on meAs hangs a row of pearls upon its string.I am the fresh taste of the water; IThe silver of the moon, the gold o' the sun,The word of worship in the Veds, the thrillThat passeth in the ether, and the strengthOf man's shed seed. I am the good sweet smellOf the moistened earth, I am the fire's red light,The vit!
 al air
 moving in all which moves,The holiness of hallowed souls, the rootUndying, whence hath sprung whatever is;The wisdom of the wise, the intellectOf the informed, the greatness of the great.The splendour of the splendid. Kunti's Son!These am I, free from passion and desire;Yet am I right desire in all who yearn,Chief of the Bharatas! for all those moods,Soothfast, or passionate, or ignorant,Which Nature frames, deduce from me; but allAre merged in me- not I in them!(Hindu, Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr)) CHAPTER VIIAnd elliptically Moses...Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that theLORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all hisservants and to all his land-the great trials which your eyes have seen, thesigns, and those great wonders.And I have led you forty years in thewilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have
 notworn out on your feet. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine orsimilar drink, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD." (Deuteronomy29:2-3, 5-6)Emphasis added-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Khazeh FananapazirSent: 08 June 2005 05:52To: Baha'i StudiesSubject: RE: question fm another list (tackled in depth)Dear Khazeh:: )On 6/7/05, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Firstly a major element of Bahai explanation and teaching is that we  do not wish to argue with any one. This issue of Jesus Christ's Divinity and Muhammad's Messengerhood and  humanity (the so-called ONTOLOGICAL) question has previously  divided Christianity and Islam most bitterly with infinite  argumentation and disputation. In fact those Christians who were  p!
 reviously
 Moslems and vice versa have engaged in this most bitterly.  (as the growing and increasingly abrasive pages of the internet testify). But FIRSTLY the Bahai discourse should TRANSCEND the above as we accept and are INCLUSIVE of both.Gilberto:So the issue which is a bit unclear is whether or not the Bahai faith reallytakes a stand on the ontological question. From my perspective, the typicalMuslim and typical Christian disagree about ontology and disagree aboutterminology as well. If you go deeper, some Christians and some Muslimsmight have more common ground than is realized most of the time, butsomewhere there is still a basic disagreement.So does the Bahai faith have a particular ontology, alongside Islam's andChristianity's? Or would you say the ontologies are the same?Something else?... Peace Gilberto(Kf writes with the help of God)Dear Brother Gilberto Nice to hear from you :!
 )When
 I wrote to Don Calkins, I wondered in the back of my mind whethersomeone would ask the VERY question you ask above.Any way: it is great and wonderful to hear from you and I hope that, by thegrace of God (Allah) and His Sent Ones, you have been keeping well and stillmore immersed in the study of the Holy Qur'an, hadith, and hopefully theWritings of this Revelation.You write1) So does the Bahai Faith have a particular ontology, alongside Islam'sand Christianity's?2) Or would you say the ontologies are the same?Or 3) Something else?...If I knew how to answer this question I would be a better man! But I will try and probably fail but I will try.Answer :- Delving into ONTOLOGICAL questions (ie what the essence andquiddity of the Manifestations really is) is not really easy for thefollowers of God's Faiths primarily because the Manifestations belong to ahigher realm a higher station th!
 an human
 beings.Thus according to the Bible Christ said:** and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man theFather, save the Son** Matthew 11:27And againAND NO MAN KNOWETH WHO THE SON IS, BUT THE FATHER; AND WHO THE FATHER IS,but the Son Luke 10:22Who the Son IS {ie His

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