from:"JS"

TITLE: The Proof Based on Establishment (Dalíl-i-taqrír) and the Proof Based on Verses (H.ujjiyyat-i-ayát) - An Introduction to Bahá'í-Muslim Apologetics [Kavian Milani]

dalíl-i-taqrír overview:

1.Concept of the Manifestation of God.
- God has undisputed sovereignty over creation and the Manifestations of God are possessors of God's attributed, including sovereignty. Therefore, the Manifestations will achieve sovereignty in nasut over enemies. In other words, a divinely inspired religion cannot be stopped.

2.Definition ofdalíl-i-taqrír

- a divinely inspired religion cannot be stopped.
- "Should a person claim to be the founder of a religion, and proceed to establish a religion, and claim a relationship between that religion and God (Blessed and Exalted be He), and that religion gains influence in the world and becomes established, this is sufficient proof regarding its truth." (Abu'l-Fadl)
- requires that false claimants disappear.
- counter-claimants of Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah faced rapid demise.
- false religions have existed before and they have disappeared.
- "Conversely, non-establishment and lack of influence indicate the falsity of a fading and temporary claim" (Abu'l-Fadl)
- Abu'l-Fadl is so confident of the validity of the dalíl-i-taqrír that he claims that without it the truth of no religion can be established.
- "if one ignores the proof of establishment, then it is in no wise possible for one to distinguish between Truth and falsehood." (Abu'l-Fadl)

Scriptural sources for dalíl-i-taqrír:

1.Writings of Baha'u'llah
-- Kitáb-i-Íqán, pages 107-108 : Muhammad's sovereignty"is today apparent and manifest amongst the people" and the Qa'im's sovereignty will "in due time reveal itself" (written in 1852).
--Kitáb-i-Íqán, pages 110-111 : Sovereignty of Muhammad is Islam's establishment and ascendancy.
-- Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, LII : Proofs for validity of Baha'u'llah's mission are (1) "His own Self", (2) "His Revelation", (3) establishment of "the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth".
-- Promised Day is Come, page 87 : "If this Cause be of God, no man can prevail against it; and if it be not of God, the divines amongst you, and they that follow their corrupt desires, and such as have rebelled against Him, will surely suffice to overpower it."

2. Qur'an
--Qur'án, XVII.81 :"And say: Truth has come and falsehood hath vanished. Verily falsehood is by its nature bound to perish."
--Qur'án, XXXVII.171-172: "Our Word had already been given before to Our servants, the Messengers, That they would be assisted, And that certainly Our hosts shall be victorious."
--Qur'án, XIV.24-26 : "Do you not see how God compareth a good Word with a good tree whose roots are firm and branches in the sky, Which yields, by the leave of its Lord, its fruits in all seasons. God presents similitudes to men that they might reflect. An evil word is like a rotten tree torn out of the earth. It has no stability."
--Qur'án, XXI.18 : "Verily, We set the truth against falsehood, which shatters it, and falsehood disappears. Woe unto you for what you attribute to God!"
-- Qur'án, IX,32-33 : "Fain, they wish to extinguish the light of God by their mouths; but God will not have it so, for He wills to perfect His light, albeit the unbelievers be averse. It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the True Religion in order to make it victorious over every other religion, even though the unbelievers be averse."

3. Bible
--Proverbs 19:5-9 : "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape...A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish."
--I. Corinthians 4:11 : "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
--I John 5:4 : "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
--Matthew 15:13: "Every tree, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."
-- Acts 5:33-39 : "But if it be of God, ye can not overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

To Be continued... apologetic challenges
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Re: A Summary Part 2: Logical Proof - Kavian Milani

Mark,

I don't know much about the Unification Church, but al-Qa'ida does not fulfill Abu'l-Fadl's criterion for truth.

I did not get to the section that deals with the response of critics, but will do so very soon.

To get to the point, al-Qa'ida doesn't count because itis still dependent on the Qur'an and therefore is established because its foundation (Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an) are already established.

Other examples includes the Mormon Church (it is dependent on Jesus as the Christ), Azal and his small band of followers (dependent on the Bab and the Bayan as the Mahdi and the Book of God), Gholam Ahmad (dependent on the Qur'an as the Book of God).

"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
- "Should a person claim to be the founder of a religion, and proceed to establish a religion, and claim a relationship between that religion and God (Blessed and Exalted be He), and that religion gains influence in the world and becomes established, this is sufficient proof regarding its truth." (Abu'l-Fadl)The Unification Church (Rev. Moon) and al-Qa'ida would fulfill Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's criterion for truth.With regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbott "Abbie" Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]S!
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Re: A Summary Part 2: Logical Proof - Kavian Milani


Mark: al-Qa'ida largely fulfills the condition I mentioned (though perhaps not as closely as the Unification Church). Whether the leadership of al-Qa'ida claims divine revelation, assuming the network even exists and is not merely a construction of certain Western governments, they do assert some sort of divine authority.JS: Where is al-Qai'da's Book that supercede's the Qur'an?
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Re: A Summary Part 2: Logical Proof - Kavian Milani

Gilberto: Maybe I'm misreading you but it seems like you are saying one canjudge the truth by worldly success and that seems really problematic.
Gilberto, I think Mark summed it up pretty well:

"He [Mirza Abu'l-Fadl]did not claim that all the religions of God are enduring (which might itself need to be parsed). He said that any religion which claims to be from God, and endures, is authentic."
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Re: A Summary Part 2: Logical Proof - Kavian Milani



Gilberto: It's just the other side of the same coin. Yes, there are presumablyuninspired individuals who have made claims and have persisted andbecome successful in some sense. There are also individuals who arepresumably inspired but whose movements didn't survive.Gilberto: So for instance in Jesus' case, I would say that the real Christiansdidn't prosper in the material sense but Paul's movement was thesuccessful one.
I think this would also apply to Paul's movement since Paul is under the Shadow of Jesus.
"One can examine the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam in light of the above Quranic allegory. The founder of neither tradition has made an independent claim to Divine Revelation.[77] Followers of the former are essentially Christian, while the adherents to the latter are Muslims.[78] The spread of both is then to be expected within the framework of taqrír, just as taqrír of Christianity and Islam equally entitles Catholicism, Protestantism, Shí'a and Sunní traditions to last. " - Kavian Milani
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Re: A Summary Part 2: Logical Proof - Kavian Milani

Gilberto: How do you determine whether a particular religion has "endured"? Forexample, among the contemporary neo-pagan movement there are groups ofpeople who claim to still worship the ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian,Mesoptamian and Norse Gods. Does that mean those religions have"endured"?Regarding 'endurance', please see if this helps:
As one can expect, many disputants have raised similar objections to the dalíl-i-taqrír. ...[In the form of] a short story, Kirmání [,an Azali enemy of the Baha'i Faith,]responds to the dalíl-i-taqrír. The setting of the story is a coffee-house in India, where travelers from the seventy-two religions of the world have gathered. Dialogues and debates are in progress among diverse religions, when a certain ['Baha'i' in the story] enters into dialogue with a Sufi and a Shaykhi.[The Baha'i in the story] states the following adulterated version of the dalíl-i-taqrír:
Yes! The proof is the claim itself. What proof is greater than a grand claim, if associated with endurance and if it is effective, and if the claimant possesses majesty and might, and raises the call among the masses and endures and is afraid of nothing.
Apparently his fictional audience did not approve of the dalíl-i-taqrír. All of the people in the coffee-house, representing all religions, rise up and collectively spit on [the Baha'i in the story], and address him as follows:
We are astonished at your limitless audacity and shamelessness. If the claim constituted proof by itself, then the claims of Pharaoh, Nimrod and the anti-Christ must also be proof. If majesty were a criterion, no one had the majesty and might of the Pharaohs and Nimrods.[82]
Obviously, Kirmání had misunderstood the proof based on establishment [dalíl-i-taqrír]. As Abu'l-Fadl has repeatedly pointed out, establishment and taqrir must be in the setting of no worldly glory and might. Kirmání is in fact providing examples supporting the dalíl-i-taqrír, which simply states that Nimrod will disappear, but Abraham will last. Pharaoh and Caesar will vanish, but the teachings of Moses and Jesus will continue to animate the world.
- Kavian Milani
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Re: A Summary Part 2: Logical Proof - Kavian Milani



Gilberto:For example, among the contemporary neo-pagan movement there are groups of people who claim to still worship the ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian,Mesoptamian and Norse Gods. Does that mean those religions have"endured"?
This might help regarding ancient religions:
Once the dalíl-i-taqrír is rejected, Abu'l-Fadl maintains that no religion can be proven. Elsewhere in the Fará'id, he goes on to prove that the Chinese religions are not idolatry, but rather Religions revealed by God. He painstakingly proves from the Qur'án the Bahá'í teaching that all peoples of the world, including the Chinese, must have been recipients of Divine guidance, in the form of Revelation. 

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RE: Realism, Nominalism (Rational)

2005-03-15 Thread JS



Ian: Also: "in this age the peoples of the world need the arguments of reason." (SAQ 7)
Abdu'-Baha in the interview with with Pasteur Monnier :
"...we give an explanation which is accepted by reason, an explanation that no one need find occasion to reject."
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Fast Prayer: Stones glorified God in Muhammad's time

2005-03-12 Thread JS

This is in regards to Baha'u'llah's fast prayers that begins with "These are, O my God, the days whereon Thou didst enjoin Thy servants to observe the fast."

Afterasking God not to prevent people from observing the ordinances ofHis Revelation,Baha'u'llah states that the potency of it (this Revelation) is so great that every least pebble resounds with God's praise, just as stones glorified God in Prophet Muhammad's time. 

"... a Revelation that hath enabled every pebble to resound again with Thy praise, as the stones glorified Thee in the days of Muhammad, Thy Friend."

Does anyone know what this reference to stones is about? 
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Fear of God: Greatest gift from God to Man

2005-03-05 Thread JS

I am convinced that the greatest gift God gave to man for this day is the sense of fear. We must learn to expunge ourselves of all fear: except the Fear of God.

 "Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world..." -Baha'u'llah
 "Fear ye God, and be not of those who perish." -Baha'u'llah
 "Fear not God Who hath created you..." -Baha'u'llah
 "Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain." -Baha'u'llah

Baha'u'llah identifies the fear of God as the protector and promolgatorthe God's Cause Amr.

 "...the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious..." -Baha'u'llah
 "The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause" -Baha'u'llah

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Re: Fear of God: Greatest gift from God to Man

2005-03-05 Thread JS

Sorry, it is 2:04 am here, so I am a bit tired. The third quote should read:

"Fear ye not God Who hath created you, and fashioned you, and caused you to attain your strength, and joined you with them that have resigned themselves to Him (Muslims)?" - Baha'u'llah
JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I am convinced that the greatest gift God gave to man for this day is the sense of fear. We must learn to expunge ourselves of all fear: except the Fear of God.

 "Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world..." -Baha'u'llah
 "Fear ye God, and be not of those who perish." -Baha'u'llah
 "Fear not God Who hath created you..." -Baha'u'llah
 "Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain." -Baha'u'llah

Baha'u'llah identifies the fear of God as the protector and promolgatorthe God's Cause Amr.

 "...the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious..." -Baha'u'llah
 "The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause" -Baha'u'llah



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Re: Fw: U.S. educators needed to assist with potential Baha'i-based public school

2005-03-01 Thread JS

It may be challenging to writea schoolproposal in2 weeks, so says my wife.Brent Poirier Attorney at Law [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: Baha'i Discuss 
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 6:59 PM
Subject: U.S. educators needed to assist with potential Baha'i-based public school

Dear Friends,
Jade has asked me to forward this, and requests that it be disseminated as widely as possible. Please forward it if you know anyone who may be interested. 
All replies should be sent to her at[EMAIL PROTECTED].
Thanks
Becky

Allah'u'Abha Dear Friends, (LSAs, please forward to all community members)

I am an educational leader who has been eager to eventually open a public/charter school based totally on Baha'i principles. I have written a charter school application and presented 
it in different states, not Colorado. I have focused onmulticultural education, have Coloradolicenses to be principal or superintendent, and am bilingual in Spanish. 

Several days ago, the Denver Public School system put out an RFP (request for proposal) 
to convert a failing public school in Denver to a contract or charter school for grades PreK-8, and which will share a campus with Cole Middle School, which is now becoming a KIPP (ColeCollege Prep School). It presently has about 325 students, PreK-5,but can accommodate over 600.Mitchell is predominantly Hispanic (82%) and over 13% African Americans;95% of the studentsqualify for free or reduced-price lunch; and about 45% 
are identified as English Language Learners.This school has the lowest test scores in 
the entire state. 

This is a perfect opportunity for Baha'is to take over a public school and turn it around with our wonderful principles.

The deadline for this proposal is MARCH 18, 2005. There is almost no time to think about this for long. NOW is the time for individual initiative and be willing to cooperate in any way you can.

I propose a school that follows Baha'i principles completely, a multicultural community 
center that supports the students and the parents, one that is bilingual for all students, or 
as close to that as possible, which teaches the spiritual principles of all world religions as part of the social studies curriculum, which is allowed, that promotes unity and a sense of world citizenship and leadership locally and globally, which totally integrates--in effect, not just in principle--the arts and technology , by teaching these subjects daily and within projects such as TV and video production to improve verbal skills as well as technology abilities; that promotes alternative types of physical education including meditation and Tai Chi, proven to improve academic performance. I would also consider using the Montessori method in the early childhood phase (PreK-2) and perhaps theInternational Baccalaureate curriculum, which is compatible, ingrades3-8. IN short, it would become an academy ofrigor, while focused on the three types of education clearly outlined by 'Abdu'l-Baha: material, human and spiritual.

INDIVIDUALS ARE NEEDED IN THE FOLLOWING AREAS:

FOUNDING BOARD MEMBERS WHO WILL GIVE THE SCHOOL A LEGAL STRUCTURE AND GUIDANCE 
LEGAL ADVISORS TO FORM A NON-PROFIT AND OTHERWISE ADVISE 
FINANCIAL ADVISORS INCLUDING ACCOUNTANTS, MBA, ADMINISTRATORS, ETC. TO DIRECT THE ANNUAL BUDGET, (THIS IS STILL A PUBLIC SCHOOL SO STRICT GUIDELINES MUST BE ADHERED TO),ENVISION 3  FIVE YEAR GROWTH PROJECTIONS, ETC. 
TEACHERS AND TEACHER AIDS, (SOME OF WHOM MAY COME FROM SPANISH SPEAKING COUNTRIES), ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO ARE BILINGUAL, ALTHOUGH NO ALWAYS REQUIRED. THOSE WHO ARE ALSO WILLING TO BE TRAINED IN CORE CURRICULUM, MONTESSORI, ESL, IB AND OTHER APPROACHES AND METHODS, WITH STAFF DEVELOPMENT FUNDS. 
OFFICE SUPPORT STAFF 
MAINTAINANCE STAFF 
CAFETERIA SUPPORT STAFF 
BUILDING CONTRACTORS, DEVELOPERS, ARCHITECTS, ETC 
PSYCHOLOGISTS, SOCIAL WORKERS, NURSES, AND OTHERSIMILAR SUPPORT STAFF 
PUBLIC RELATIONS, DEVELOPMENT, ECONOMIC AND FUND RAISING SPECIALISTS 
VOLUNTEERS IN READING WITH CHILDREN, SCHOOL BUILDING, AND MANY OTHER AREAS 
COMMUNITY RELATIONS 
GOAL: TO HAVE AS MANY BAHA'IS WORKING IN PAID AND VOLUNTEER POSITIONS AS POSSIBLE, TO HAVE A BAHA'I DOMINATED SCHOOL BOARD (CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE SCHOOL DISTRICTS UNTO THEMSELVES) ADMINISTRATION.

If you are in support of creating a Baha'i PUBLIC SCHOOL, please respond to this notice ASAP and indicate in what way you are willing to serve. I would like to call for a meeting within the next 10 days in order to meet the March 18 deadline for a proposal. 

Kindest regards to all, 
Jade Amick-Fulgenzi__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -

Martyrdom of Imam Husayn

2005-02-12 Thread JS

Today is the 3rd of Muharram 1426 of the Islam calendar. In seven days, or the 10th of Muharram, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn will be observed. As you all know, Bahá'u'lláhrevealed a Tablet of Visitation in honor ofthe Imam Husayn. In memory of the Imam Husaynand his martyrdom, I've pasted the tablet below. It is a very powerful tablet thatclearly demonstrates that the Authors of the Bahá'í Revelation confirmed our acceptance ofhis essence. Itshowsour reverence for the Imam, who sacrificed his life to purify humanity.

Revealed by Bahá'u'lláh:

This is a Tablet of Visitation revealed from the Supreme Horizon by My All-Glorious Pen in honour of His Holiness, the Prince of Martyrs, Husayn, the son of Alí, may the spirit of all else but Him be a sacrifice unto Him!
He is the Comforter, the Consoler,the Lord of Utterance, the All-Knowing!

God testifieth that there is no God but Him! And He that hath appeared is the One promised in all the Books and sacred Scrolls, the One remembered in the hearts of all those near unto God and the sincere ones. Through Him, the Tree of utterance hath raised its call in the kingdom of divine recognition saying:
O Concourse of all Faiths! I swear by the All Merciful! The days of sorrow have come upon Us, inasmuch as in these days there hath befallen the Dawning-place of Gods proof and the Dayspring of His evidence that which hath caused the lamentations of those resident beneath the canopy of glory in the all highest paradise to be raised. It hath caused wailing in the tabernacle of grace in the supreme heaven.
God testifieth that there is no God but He, and He that hath appeared is the Preserved Treasure, the hidden mystery through whom all the secrets of what hath been and what will be are divulged. This is the Day whereon the verse revealed in the past hath found its consummation and fulfillment in the verse, "The Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the Throne above the exalted Seat." This is the day whereon the banners of idle fancy and vain imaginings have been subverted and the command, We are from God and unto Him shall we return hath gone forth. This is the Day whereon the "Great Announcement" which all the Prophets and Messengers had heralded hath appeared. In this Day, those near unto God have hastened to the sealed choice wine and have drunk of it in the name of God, the Omnipotent, the Help in Peril, and the Self-Subsistent. On this Day too, the cry of weeping and tears is raised from every side and the tongue of utterance speaketh: Sorrow !
belongeth
to the Friends of God and His chosen ones; tribulation befitteth the lovers of God and His trusted ones; sadness and affliction becometh the Manifestations of God, the Possessor of all things, whether of the past or the future.
O denizens of the city of names and O countenances residing in the chambers of the all-highest paradise! O companions of faithfulness in the kingdom of eternity! Change ye your glad white and red garments unto black clothes of mourning, for the supreme calamity and the greatest loss hath come to pass, because of which, the Messenger of God hath wailed and lamented and the heart of Fátimih hath melted. Thereupon, the dwellers of the Abhá Tabernacle and those sailing upon the Crimson Ark, seated upon seats of love and loyalty, wept with a great weeping.
Ah! Ah! How I lament My sorrows caused by an injustice that hath set afire the realities of all beings; how I grieve over that which hath befallen the Sovereign of the Visible and Invisible at the hands of those who have violated Gods Covenant and Testament and have denied His proof, repudiated His grace and disputed with His signs!
Ah! Ah! May the spirits of the Concourse on High be a sacrifice unto the calamity Thou didst bear, O Thou who art the Son of the Sadratul-Muntahá and the Mystery enshrined in the Most Exalted Word! O would that the command of Creation and Its Return hath not been made manifest, for thus eyes would not have witnessed Thy Body prostrate and wounded on the dust! Because of Thy calamity, the ocean of utterance is prevented from billowing forth its waves of wisdom and knowledge and the breezes of God have been stilled. Because of Thy sorrow, all traces of joy have vanished, the fruits of the tree have fallen down, the wailing of the righteous hath risen to high heaven, and the tears of the pious have flowed in profusion.
Ah! Ah! O Prince of Martyrs and their Sovereign, their Glory and their Well beloved! I testify that through Thee, the daystar of detachment hath shone forth over the firmament of creation and through Thee, the temples of the near ones were adorned with the ornament of righteousness. Through Thee, the light of divine recognition hath shone forth in the world of creation. Were it not for Thee, the command to knit and join together "B" and "E" would not have gone forth and the sealed "choice wine" would not have been unsealed. But for Thee, the Dove of

Re: Martyrdom of Imam Husayn

2005-02-12 Thread JS

Hi,

Just to clarify, I am not engaging in, or attempting to engage in, a Muslim-Baha'i dialogue. Baha'u'llah wrote a Tablet of Visitation for Imam Husayn, to be read on the commemoration of his martyrdom. This Tablet is part of the Baha'i Holy Text.

With regards.
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not objecting to the direction the conversation is taking but I'mcurious what the limits are in terms of this new (temporary?) guidlinerestricting the subject matter?PeaceGilberto-- "pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public -
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Re: Abdu'l-Baha in Abu-Sinan - 1

2005-02-09 Thread JS

`Abdul-Baha in Abu-Sinan:September 1914 May 1915
How were you able to narrow this down to the actual months of Sept. and May?
In the course of the next two decades the situationimproved and gradually other Bahais were able to settle in `Akka,
How did it improve and why?
his younger half-brothers Diyaullah and Badi`ullah.
Where they faithful?
In 1880s, they were compelled to leave Mosul, and some 180 of them settled in`Akka, or nearby villages or in Haifa.
Who or what compelled them to leave Mosul?
Many of them opened small shops,carrying on with their trade and profession, making modest livings.
Any examples of what kind of shops they were?
He also acquired someland in the villages of Samrih, Nughayb and `Adasiyyih, situated near theJordan, where a few Bahais lived.
Is "He" Abdu'l-Baha? Was the land purchased before or after the Baha'is lived there?
By the summers end, *the* World War I had erupted,
Don't need "the" here, do you?
All merchants, including Bahaitraders, suffered great losses, for the Government, without payment,commandeered their entire inventory.
Not sure about this sentence.
that no guns would be turned on Haifa
What does that mean?
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Re: Islam and Bahai [continued based on Buck on the Iqan]

2005-02-08 Thread JS



G: I think you should explain the logic of the rest of the passage more clearly because it doesn't seem based in the text itself.
Gilberto, the more you try to argue that a belief in Baha'u'llah is illogical and false (after numerous emailsconclusively provingthe Truth), the more convinced do I become ofHis Logic,His Power, andHis Glory.In fact, just now adeep inexplicablesense of peace has come over my whole being.
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith

2005-02-08 Thread JS

G: I'm not emphasizing them, but to pretend that they don't exist isdishonest. Especially when you use a word like "absolutely". If yousay something is "absolutely" true, then it shouldn't have exceptions.If a statement has exceptions, or if a statement needs to bequalified somehow then it is not "aboslutely" true. It's not anythingthat should be lamented, its just trying to be accurate.
JS: Muhammad's truth was absolutely true, but the infidels somehow managed to discard all the proofs and rejected the Prophet.---
G: Yes, if Bahais can say that "khatm" means something other than lastbecause they want to abrogate Islam, then Muslims can say "daraba"means something other than beat because they want to keep practicingit.
JS: No one has asked you to stop believing in Islam. In fact, we don't disbelieve in Islam either. Wealsobelieve in Baha'u'llah. Ottoman and Persian armies could not stop Him.---
G: Please don't remind me over and over and over again about the factthat I've written hundreds of e-mails to a Bahai studies group andthen accuse me of not investigating. Please don't put words in mymouth.
JS: An investigator is open. You, as you have admitted numerous times, are not open to Baha'u'llah, Lord of the Age. What else is there to investigate? You have already made up your mind.
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 1 [MM] posted first in 1999 !

G: But the period from Muhammad's lifetime to the Bab's lifetime waswell over 1000 years.
JS: The 1000 years is calculated from the 12th Imam, or last member of Muhammad's Household in the Shia line, who disappeared in 260 AH. The Bab declared on 1260 AH, exactly 1000 years later. The reason that it is calculate from the 12th Imam instead of the birth, pilgrimage, or death of Muhammad is because, although most Muslims don't accept it, the Imams were the authorized guide of Islam. This line abruptly ended on 260AH. The revelation of Muhammad in fact continued through the 12th imam on 260AH, just as the revelation of Baha'u'llah continued through Abdu'l-Baha.
The return of al-amr can only, according to the usage of the Qur'án, be through the coming of another Messenger of God, which is, of course, is exactly what Bahá'ís believe has happened with the coming of Bahá'u'lláh.G: But the text itself doesn't say that the Cause of God implies a newprophet. That's just the Bahai gloss.
JS: Don't evenbe concernedabout 'new prophet' at this point, it is irrelevant to the content of this verse. Baha'u'llah specificallysays that He has brought the amr-ullah. The concept of'new prophet' is supported elsewhere in the Qur'an and the Hadith.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 1 [MM] posted first in 1999 !

`Umar ibn al-Khattáb (may God be pleased with him) gave the oration on Friday and said: I heard the Messenger of God (peace be upon him) saying: `A party of my people will continue victorious upon the right path until the Cause of God (AMR-ALLAH) shall come.'
Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the CAUSE OF GOD (AMR-ALLAH), were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.
O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.
(Baha'u'llah Gleanings XIV)
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 2 [MM]

G: According to the Bahai faith, weren't those religions alreadysuperceded before Bahaullah?
JS: Yes, but the Baha'i belief is that Baha'u'llah has now come to unite all the religions, something that Islam and Christianity failed to do. The central teaching of Baha'u'llah is Unity.

G: Judaism was superceded by Christianity. Christianity by Islam. Islam by the Bab? In some divine legal sense those religions were already abrogated, no (according to the Bahais)? And in the worldly sense, all three religions certain exist as livingcommunities. So it doesn't seem like a really good fit.
JS: Yes, they were already abrogated. But it is the vision of Abdu'l-Baha that in the near future, most of the World will become Baha'i. Today, there are large Christian, Muslim, and Jewish communities in the world.
G: Does that apply to the Bab's writings as well?
JS: Yes it does. None of the Laws and Ordinances of the Bab are applicable. They were all abrogated by Baha'u'llah.
G: It is totally not clear. Why even assume that those three things arereferences to the three religions anyway (pork, cross, Jizya)?
JS: Because it is an interpretation ofa prophecy.
G: In in contrast to Muslims, Bahais believe that the crucifixion was real?
JS: Yes, the Baha'i view is that the person of Jesus was really crucified, but this crucifixion did not succeed in killing the Spirit of Jesus, which survives even today through the largest religious community on the planet: Christianity.
G: It depends on which Christians you are talking about.
JS: Yes, not everyone belongs to one sect or one school. The vision of Abdu'l-Baha is that the Baha'i Faith will be this unifying Force, a Force that will bring about a Most Great Peace, God Kingdom on Earth.
G: Not the Muslim salat and not fasting in Ramadan.
JS: But fasting and salat, though a bit different,are part of the Baha'i Law, though Jizya is not part of Baha'i Law in any way, shape, or form.
G: What does it mean to be stripped of preconceived notions? Everyonegoes through like coming from a certain background where they are toldcertain things. You might have *different* "preconceived notions" frommine, but I don't see where you can say that Bahais don't have any.
JS: No, none of what I say (or try to say) are based on anyone else's view except Baha'u'llah's view. Everything that I attempt to say are solely paraphrased statements of what Baha'u'llah has already said. This if essence of FAITH.
G: It seems bizzare to describe the Bahai faith as God taking away the amr from Arabs and giving it to Persians.JS: Muhammad was Arab and most Muslims while He was alive were Arabs. The Qur'an is in Arabic. Baha'u'llah was Persian and most Baha'is while He was alive were Persians. The Writings of Baha'u'llah were in Persian and some were in Arabic.
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 1 [MM] posted first in 1999 !



G: Fifth, in terms of "closed-mindedness" I don't think I'm any more"closed-minded" to the Bahai faith than Bahais are to Islam. If peoplecame up with better and more attractive and persuasive answers to myquestions I would certainly be willing to change my mind. But theyhaven't.
JS: Thanks for answering my question so frankly. I appreciate that. Let me ask you another question.If yousayBaha'is are closed-minded to Islam, would you alsosay that Muslims are closed-minded to Christians? Why or why not?
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 2 [MM]

G: I think you are missing the point. The prophecy says that when Jesuscomes back he will break the cross, kill the pig, abolish the jizya.The Bahais claim this means to supercede Judaism, Christianity, andIslam. The Bahais claim that Bahaullah fulfilled this prophecy. Buteven according to the Bahais, these things were already completedbefore Bahaullah in the time of the Bab. That's a discrepancy.
JS: I think I see what you mean. The Baha'i view is thatthe Characteristicdistinguishes Baha'u'llah from the Bab, Muhammad, and Jesus is that Baha'u'llah brings that AMR thatwillfinally fulfill thisvision in a literal way. Jesus did not convinces all Jews to believe Him. Then came Muhammad. Muhammad did not convince all Christians and Jews to believe Him. Then came the Bab. The Bab did convince all Jews, Christians, and Muslims to believe Him. Then came Baha'u'llah. Now will these three religions bebroken, killed, and abolished in this Day of God, and live forever more under the shadow of the Command and Cause of Baha'u'llah.
G: But you filter Bahaullah's words through your own understanding,through your own experience. If you come from a Christian background,you would tend to see things one way. If you came from a Muslimbackground you would tend to see things a different way. Same if youwere Jewish, or Budshist before being Bahai.
JS: Yes, I filter Baha'u'llah through my understanding, but I accept Baha'u'llahto be Truth. My personal understanding do no contradict with Baha'u'llah. You are stuck on yourpreconceived notions, notions that prevent you from recognizing Baha'u'llah. See the difference?
G: I don't think that was true in the time of the Bab. Islam had alreadyspread well beyond the Arab world for centuries before then. Even inthe time of the Bab, Islam didn't "belong" to the Arabs so it couldn'thave been taken from them. Islam belongs to all people, whether theyare from North Africa, Subsaharan Africa, South East Asian, the formerSoviet Union, China, Persia, Turkey, or the Arab countries. Islam is aworld religion and doesn't belong to a particular ethnic group.
JS: The distance that Islam spread does not negate the fact that it started among Arabs, and that the Qur'an was written in Arabic. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah was completely divorced from Arabs and Arabic when the Holy Maiden came to Him while he was in the underground cell in Tehran Iran. When Baha'u'llah was exiledto Baghdad and publically declared Himself in 1863, the Persians in Iran who were Babis accepted Him as Him Whom God Will Manifest, and the Persians who were exiled with Him to Baghdad accepted Him as Him Whom God Will Manifest.
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 2 [MM]

G: I think Mark's answer makes more sense to me. I don't think one canmake an objective case that Bahaullah fulfilled that particularprophecy. At least not in a way that could be expected to persuadenon-Bahais.
JS: Prophecies are a means to confirmingthe truth, just like miracles, but Baha'u'llah states that the criteria for accepting Him are (1) His Person and (2) His Writings. The prophecies definitely confirm my Faith in Baha'u'llah. There are too many of them to just say that it was 'coincidence'. The probability that they all somehow relate to Baha'u'llah is infinitely small. And yet, all of these propheciesdopoint to Baha'u'llah.

G: But Bahaullah didn't convince all the Jews, Christians, Muslims, oreven all of the Babis to believe in him either.
JS: It is happening every day. Remember, the Day of Baha'u'llah will end when the Next Manifestation comes.The Next Manifestationhas not come yet,and we are still in His Day, the Day of Baha'u'llah.

G: And that's where you get your pre-conceived notions from. You look atIslamic texts but you don't read them like a Muslim would because youare using a Bahai lens.
JS: Your logic doesn't make sense because in this forum we are trying to validate the Truth of Baha'u'llah. If you want to see if Baha'u'llah is True, you must strip yourself from Muslim preconceptions. Similarly, if you want to see if Muhammad is true, you have to strip yourself of Christian ideas like Trinity, Atonement, Sonship, Divinity, One Way to Father, etc.
Js: You are stuck on your preconceived notions, notions that prevent you from recognizing Baha'u'llah. See the difference?G: Nope.
JS: Does it make more sense now?
G: But in the prophecy you claimed was fulfilled by Bahaullah you saidthat Arabs would be replaced by Persians. That doesn't make sense.Because Islam already spread beyond the Arab world and that Persiansare already mostly Muslim. The second point is perhaps the moreforceful one. Iranian Islamic religious authorities have their owninstitutions anyway. They aren't really "following" Arabs. So itdoesn't make sense to describe this as something being taken away fromthe Arabs and given to the Persians. You are taking Islam away fromthe Persians too.
JS: You are holding yourself back. Let yourself be free and don't rebel against your spirit as it draws close to Baha'u'llah. If you find out that it is false later, you can always turn back, no one will hold you captive. But I tell you, and I swear by God's beloved servants, Baha'u'llah is the Truth.
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 1 [MM] posted first in 1999 !



How do I know that you aren't simply "attached" to the Bahai faith andunwilling to consider the alternatives?
Gilberto, I firmlystand behind the Prophet Muhammad with my life, and pledge that He is the True Prophet of God. I do not see the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an asan alternative. Muhammad and the Qur'an are the One Path, the Straight Way, the Truth.
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Management Accounting Costs and Finality of Prophets ???


I am in my first dayof Management Accountingclass working for an MBA. We are discussing 'costs', classification of costs, and characteristics of costs. Instead of listening to Prof. Johnston's lecture, I am thinking about Proofs of Baha'u'llah. (Can you condemn me??)

Shegave anintroduction to direct costs and indirect costs, and described that the definitions to these concepts are **dependent on the context one chooses**. A cost may be described as direct in one context, andthe same cost may be indirect in another context. By definition, a direct cost is a cost of a resource that is used by *a single object*. An indirect cost is for a resource that is used by *more than one objects*. The application of these two concepts depends directly on how one chooses to define one or more than one object. (1) In one definition, an object may be sneaker units produced by a footwear manufacturing company. (2) In a second definition, an object may be defined to include all accessories like shoe polish, shoe laces, and socks.

I believe that the concept of Khatim is dependent onthe context, and changes as the context one uses changes. To a Qur'anic world-view, Khatim marks the end of the authority of the Qur'an. This end may or may not coincide with an actual, physical end of the universe or earth. In a Baha'i world-view, Khatim marks the end related to one Revelation among many ever unfolding Revelations. Both definitions are true, as Baha'u'llah states clearly in the Iqan and other places.

Not sure if this makes any sense, but this connection between costs and Khatim jolted me as I was falling asleep in the lecture hall.

Regards to all.
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Re: Islamic Prophecies and the Baha'i Faith - 2 [MM]



 JS: The growth has only slowed in the USA. The Baha'i community is in healthy growth in South America and Africa.G: Do you know where it is possible for me to look up those numbers?From what I know, the number of Baha'is in those continents are not tracked as accurately as they are in the USbecause to inferior infrastructure. Someone else may know more details about this. But Baha'i communities are expanding in number and depth of knowledge based on what people have told me who have recently come back from those continents. 

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Muslim Persecution of Baha'is 1

Throughout the past century, the Bahá'ís of Iran have been persecuted. With the triumph of the Islamic revolution in 1979, this persecution has been systematized. More than 200 Bahá'ís have been executed or killed, hundreds more have been imprisoned, and tens of thousands have been deprived of jobs, pensions, businesses, and educational opportunities. All national Bahá'í administrative structures have been banned by the Government, and holy places, shrines and cemeteries have been confiscated, vandalized, or destroyed.
The 350,000-member Bahá'í community comprises the largest religious minority in that country, and Bahá'ís have been oppressed solely because of religious hatred. Islamic fundamentalists in Iran and elsewhere have long viewed the Bahá'í Faith as a threat to Islam and have branded the Bahá'ís as heretics. The progressive stands of the Faith on women's rights, independent investigation of truth, and education have particularly rankled Muslim clerics.
In June 1983, for example, the Iranian authorities arrested ten Bahá'í women and girls. The charge against them: teaching children's classes on the Bahá'í Faith--the equivalent of Sunday school in the West.
The women were subjected to intense physical and mental abuse in an effort to coerce them to recant their Faith--an option that is always pressed on Bahá'í prisoners. Yet, like most Bahá'ís who were arrested in Iran, they refused to deny their beliefs. As a result, they were executed.
International protest against the persecution has been widespread. Thousands of newspaper articles about the situation of the Bahá'ís in Iran have appeared around the world. Prominent international organizations, including the European Parliament and several national legislatures, have passed resolutions condemning or expressing concern about the Bahá'ís of Iran. Most important, the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and the General Assembly have pressed the Iranian regime to observe international human rights covenants with yearly resolutions--resolutions that have paid specific attention to the Bahá'í situation.
In response to this international outcry, the most violent aspects of this persecution had abated by the early 1990s--although at least one Bahá'í, a 50-year old Teheran businessman, was killed by the Government in 1992. However, the Bahá'ís of Iran remain without any fundamental guarantee of their right to practice their religion freely, and international efforts to win their emancipation continue.
http://www.bahai.com/thebahais/pg59.htm
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Re: Abrogation

2005-02-06 Thread JS

But even if you wanted to ignore that, or if you've addressed thatsome other way,
Obviously, Baha'is don't ignore it, but address the issue in a different, though logical,way.
I've sometimes asked what criteria one could apply to the Bahaiwritings in order to determine whether or not the book comes from God,and the answers I've gotten were often vague and ultimately extremelydifficult, if not impossible, to apply. It is the same criteria as accepting the Qur'an as a Book from God. What scientific means did you use to come to the conclusion that the Qur'an is from God?
Another conceivable criteria is whether the Bahai faith is consistentwith the messages of previous Manifestations as we understand them.And there seem to be big discrepancies there. To a Christian, Islam is not consistent with past religions either. But from the Muslim perspective, these differences are not real (by using concepts of 'corruption','alteration', etc.). But to a Christian, these differences are discrepancies and prove that Islam is false.
In the same way, from the Baha'i view, there are no discrepancies. But to a Muslim who sticks to his current understanding, it proves a basis for the rejection ofthe Baha'i Revelation as false.
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Re: Abrogation

2005-02-06 Thread JS

It might seem logical to Bahais, but not necessarily to others. For example, one "answer" Bahais give is to say that all the prophets were the "seal of the prophets" which tends to render the phrase meaningless.
JS: To a Muslim it seems meaningless, but to a Baha'i it is the most meaningful of perspectives.
When I read the Quran my heart was attracted to it. It spoke to me.
JS: That's exactly how I feel about the Baha'i Writings.
In terms of more objective considerations, the more I read about the history of religion, especially Christianity and Islam, the more convinced I was that the Islamic view was the best way to make sense of religious variety. When I would read academic and not-so-academic books about the history of Christianity they seemed to confirm the Islamic understanding of Jesus. The more I read about the history of Islam after Muhammad it seemed to confirm that there was something powerful and special about this faith and the demonstratable changes it wrought.
JS: When I read the Baha'i perspective, I'm convinced that it is the best way to make sense of God and religion.When I see the history of Islam and Christianity, I'm convinced that Baha'iadministration and Law are most applicable to our society today.
But in the Bahai case the analogy doesn't hold because the Bahai writings insist that the Quran is absolutely authenticated.
Yes,the Baha'i viewdoes not make sense from the Muslim perspective, just as the Muslim view does not make sense to a born-again Christian.If youview the Baha'iWritingswith 'Muslim' glasses on, you'll never make any sense of them. The Kitab-i-Iqantellsthe seeker to strip himselfof all attachment, including attachment tohis current understanding. Then and only then can the seeker understand and believe in Truth. You were already in this state of detachmentwhen you were a Christian, even if you didn't know it. This stateallowedyour heartto seeand accept the Revelation of Muhammad.
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Re: Baha'u'llah is the Qur'anic God

2005-02-04 Thread JS



G:  Thirdly, aside from the question of whether or not saying that the manifestation is "one and the same" with God is shirk or not, there is the even more bizzre claim that this is not only consistent with tawhid, but is actually the essence and definition of tawhid."The essence of belief in Divine unity [tawhid] consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same." (Gleanings p.166)
Hi Gilberto, This email trail is really my fault bywriting the subject line as I did. But as Ian so comically put it, I placed God in scare quotes to imply that what Imeant by "God" is not literally God.
In my email to Ian, I stated that one has to look at the Revelation of Baha'u'llah as a whole and not take one sentence and hold it superior over other sentences He wrote. If one applies this to the quote from the Gleanings p. 166, one will realize that Baha'u'llah had something quite specific in mind, which has nothing to do with God being a man. Ifthe verse from the Gleaningswas the only statement made by Baha'u'llah about 'Tawhid'  the relationship between the Manifestation and God, then I would agree that Baha'u'llah taught Incarnation of God into a human being (the Manifestation). 
If you consider all the writings of Baha'u'llah on the subject, you will see that there are places where He emphatically rejects incarnation of God, partnership with God, etc. So the question is, what in the world does Baha'u'llah mean here? 
What are your ideas? HEREARE MINE:
Although the Manifestation of God is not the same thing as the invisible, inaccessible, unknowable Essence, true belief in tawhidis dependent on accepting the Manifestation as God's PERFECT Representative.It is recognition ofthe ideathat the Manifestation perfectly represents God on earth. 
The Manifestation's Will is God's Will, 
the Manifestation's speech is God's speech, 
the Manifestation's laws are God's Laws, 
the Manifestation's declarations are God's declarations, 
without exception, without doubt, and without depreciation. 
Rejection of the Manifestation's laws is rejection of God's Laws,
rejection of the Manifestation's command is rejection of God's Command,
rejection of the Manifestation's will is rejection of God's Will,
rejection of the Manifestation's authority is rejection of God's Authority,
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Re: Baha'u'llah is the Qur'anic God

2005-02-04 Thread JS

"The essence of belief in Divine unity [tawhid] consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same." (Gleanings p.166)
Also, this verse does not say that the unknowable Essence and the Manifestation are one and the same. It say that they should be *regarded* as the one and the same. In other words, Baha'u'llah is preventing people from separating the Manifestation from God, and God from the Manifestation.
Baha'u'llah is emphasizing that,humans cannot know anything about God above and beyond the Manifestation. I'm sure you have come across 'Satdrat-ul-Muntaha' in the writings. The Manifestation is considered the Sadrat-ul-Muntaha, the absolute limit of what we are capable of understanding about God.
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Re: Baha'u'llah is the Qur'anic God

2005-02-04 Thread JS



Baha'u'llah is emphasizing thathumans cannot know anything about God above and beyond the Manifestation. I'm sure you have come across 'Sadrat-ul-Muntaha' in the writings. The Manifestation is considered the Sadrat-ul-Muntaha, the absolute limit of what we are capable of understanding about God.
--
This ties in really wellinto whatmy original intent was. 
Since God is the unknowable, immaterialEssence, there is no way that He can come to earth on the 'Day of Resurrection' or the 'Day of Judgement' as described in the Qur'an. These Qur'anic descriptions are allegorical in nature and are actual references to the Manifestation of God to come, who we believe to be Baha'u'llah.
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Re: The meaning the Guardian attached to the word mutilation

"Mutilation" of the World Order would be to see Baha'u'llah's original concept of His World Order as not containing the Guardianship. *That* is what Shoghi Effendi is saying would be to divorce the Guardianship from His World Order.
This is a very good way to look at it. I agree that in context and keeping all other writings in perspective, it is clear that Shoghi Effendi was emphasizing the connection between the Guardianship and the Baha'i Faith.Here Shoghi Effendi is not arguing that the Guardianship and the Universal House of Justice had to exist simultaneous. This passage from God Passes By andthehistory of the Second Part of the Will and Testament,were great examples.
I think this ties into the misconceptions that the Baha'i Faith is superior to other religions, or that Baha'u'llah was somehow greater than previous prophets. One would have to ignore other writings (oneness of Prophets, relative nature of Revelation based on human understanding, vast difference between God and the Manifestations) to advance this idea. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

RE: The meaning the Guardian attached to the word mutilation

How does this understanding tie in with the following: Verily I say, in this most mighty Revelation, all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation? (Gleanings, 340)
JS: Yes, if this verse it look at in a vacuum, then one is let to a triumphalistic conclusion. But other Baha'i verses emphatically state that there is only one religion ('Submission to God'), that all the Prophets are one, and that religious truth is relative. None of them should be looked at in exclusion of the other statements.
(1) Jesus says that He is the only way to the Father. (2) The Qur'an states that it is the complete Book of God. (3) Muhammad states that He is the Last Prophet. (4) The Baha'i version is thatthe Baha'i Revelationis the 'most mighty Revelation' in which all other religions reach their 'final consummation'.
All 4 statement above are correct andvalid.It does not mean that any one of them is superior in essence.
Just as the previousviews (about Jesus, Qur'an, Muhammad)were not absolute, just asthey did not establish the essential superiority of their Prophet or Book (since Revelation continued), so too is the Baha'i view not absolute. There is only one Absolute, and that is God.
Meditate on 'Progressive Revelation'. Another Revelation will come in the future, another Manifestation may bring new Laws.
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RE: The meaning the Guardian attached to the word mutilation

Ian or Mark,

What is the link between Hegel, Marx andcommunism/Marxism. Why iscommunism one of the 3 evils? Is there something wrong with the philosophy ordoesit have to do with the way it was carried out? Or is it because it rejects God?
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RE: The meaning the Guardian attached to the word mutilation

A quick search on Google yields:

Hegel maintains that the juxtaposition and violent interaction of binary oppositions will continue until a position is reached which is so perfectly balanced that no new antithesis can arise, because there are no extremes left to form a thesis. This bland-sounding paradise is what Hegel calls THE ABSOLUTE IDEA, and history is the process of human civilization working toward this end point, motivated by a spiritual force which Hegel calls the WORLD-SPIRIT or WORLD-MIND. Because the ultimate cause of progress in Hegel's view of history is an abstract force, we call his philosophy a form of idealism (there are many philosophical ideas which merit this description).
Karl Marx later accepts Hegel's idea of the dialectical process as the mainspring of inevitable human progress, but he rejects Hegel's explanation that all this is due to some abstract force seeking perfection. In response, Marx develops an idea we call dialectical materialism . . .
Marx's view of history is called dialectical materialism because he sees the dialectical process being driven forward not by abstract forces, as Hegel did, but rather by solid material conditions, and particularly by economic factors. In other words, while Hegel's description of history rests on the idea that new ideas cause us to change the way we live (our thoughts change, and the world changes in response), Marx's description states that when new economic relationships change the way we live, we develop new ideas (the world changes, and our thoughts change in response).
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Re: Near Death Experiences

There is a video of a women (a Baha'i) who tells of her near near experience in which she, as a 12 year old non-Baha'i, saw 'Abdu'l-Baha and recognized Him years after the experience and became a Baha'i.Whether those kinds of experiences are spiritual or mental, they seem to be relevant to the person who experiences them.much like miracles.-- I had such an experiencewhile awake. I felt the presence of Baha'u'llah as if He wasstandingin the room withme beyond my peripheral view, and I dared not turn my head. It was a very real experience eventhough I don't believein literal miracles and supernatural phenomenon like ghosts and such.
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Baha'u'llah is the Qur'anic God

Baha'u'llah, in the Lawh-i-Hasan-i-Sháhábadí provisionally translated by Khazeh Fananapazir, states that He is neither a Prophet (nabi) nor a Messenger (rasool).

In fact, Baha'u'llah states Prophet Muhammad sealed and ended both rasalat andnabuwwat, and goes further to state that anyone claiming to be either anabior a rasoolis 'is in manifest error'.

Baha'u'llah goes on to state that He is not a nabi nor a rasool, but the Most Great Beauty manzar al-akbar (Qur'an 76:11), who broughtthe Hour, the Resurrection, and Regeneration. These events are alldescibed in the Qur'anin the following verses: 6:31, 7:187, 12:107, 15:85, 15:99, 16:77, 18:21, 20:15, 22:7, 30:1-14; 55, 31:34 33:63, 34:3, 40:59, 41:47, 50, 43:61, 66, 85, 45:27, 32, 47:18, 54:1, 46, 74:47, 79:42, 22:1-2 ; 2:212, 30:8, 56, 35:9, 46:6, 50:11, 42, 75:1-40.


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Re: Baha'u'llah is the Qur'anic God

"Richard H. Gravelly" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 "The essence of belief in Divine unity [tawhid] consisteth in regarding  Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the  inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same." (Gleanings p.  166) And this applies to both Muhammad and to Baha'u'llah [Book of Certitude  178-179].Perhaps the belief in Divine unity also requires that the belief be applied to each and every Manifestation of God as well as to the Lesser Prophets, the Imams the Gates and to 'the people of Baha who speak not except by His leave and judge not save in accordance with what God hat decreed in this Tablet"...The Kitab-i-Aqdas paragraph 42.
 Hi Rich,I don't understand what you mean.
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Re: Baha'u'llah is the Qur'anic God



Gilberto: So does that mean that the Muslims are correct and that no moreprophets or messengers are coming?JS: I'd say yes and no. 
Yes because Muhammad theSeal ended the coming of Prophets/Messengers with a station equal tothat ofany oftheProphet/Messenger that came before Him, or any that will come after Him.
No becauseManifestations (though they have the sameexact natureas Prophet Muhammad)will come in a station superior to that of Prophet Muhammad. The station of these Manifestations is so much greater thanthe Prophets and Messengers (like Muhammad) that they in fact fulfill the promises of the "God" of the Day of Resurrection.
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Re: Resolving perplexities

2005-02-01 Thread JS

In the Kitab-i-Ahd Baha'u'llah designates Mirza Muhammad-Ali as the Master's successor (Tablets of Baha'u'llah 222). Yet, Baha'u'llah told the Master to look among his sons and grandsons for who would succeed Him. (Priceless Pearl 12) Why would Baha'u'llah write this provision in His Covenant, if He knew it would not be carried out in the world of being? Did Mirza Muhammad-Ali begin opposing Abdu'l-Baha while Baha'u'llah was alive?
According to the testimony of Baha'u'llah's secretary, Baha'u'llah revealed a multitude of Tablets comprising "hundreds of thousands of verses," then decided that the world was not ready to hear them, and directed his secretary to cast them into the river. (GPB 138) Why did He reveal these Tablets in the first place, if He knew that He was going to later destroy them? Is there any evidence that this statement in GPB was literal to any of the historians here?
Further, we should not assume that if a verse appears to be clear in its meaning, that it necessarily is. The verse in the Aqdas limiting wives to no more than two (Aqdas verse 63) seems clear enough; but the appointed Interpreter gave it different meaning (Aqdas p. 206) And as that Interpreter said, "Bahá'u'lláh appointed a central authoritative Personage, declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book. This implies that the people in general do not understand the meanings of the Book, but this appointed One does understand." (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 382) I think this statement by Abdu'l-Baha is very important. Does anyone know if He writes this in any one of his tablets ( instead ofit being atranscription of one of His talks, as the above is?)
We also need to approach these questions with confidence. As the House advised us to do, we should draw assurance from these words of Baha'u'llah: "The Hand of Omnipotence hath established His Revelation upon an unassailable, an enduring foundation. Storms of human strife are powerless to undermine its basis, nor will men's fanciful theories succeed in damaging its structure." (Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 55) We Baha'ishave a dutyto see that the above isfulfilled. Though studying the text is important, the more we speculate and come up with theories that are after all based on our personal experiences, the more we weaken the structure, even though it may not be damagable. Isn't it better to create a border around our study of the text to limit it such that we don't cross this line into the uncertain realm of 'fanciful theories'? It is not as if there is nothing else to study. Wouldn't the answers to these thi!
ngs come
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RE: Scope of the House of Justice

2005-02-01 Thread JS



No, but I think they are, at least in some instances, *applications* of the Guardian's interpretations to current events. In other words, some interpretations given by Shoghi Effendi may have been "pure" (given just for their own sakes) and others may have been "applied."  Is there a scientific way to distinguish between the two, pure and applied?
If the Guardian's discussion of, say, racism as the most challenging issue in the U.S., was a temporal application of his interpretive function, then it will lose its significance over time, and future "applied interpretations" will be impossible.It give the Baha'is an opportunity to interpret the Written Holy Text for themselves, and various personal interpretations would exist. Kind of like the two camps of Baha'is, both regarded as valid by Baha'u'llah, one considering Baha'u'llah to be Divine and the other only a man. The beauty of this is that, people holding these two views exist in 1 community, united, because due to the definition of 'Manifestation of God', these two views in fact point to the same reality, and from either perspective, the Will of God is handed down to the people. I can see this applying to the above (somehow :-) ). Unlike other organizations, differences of this nature caused them to split into two separa!
 te
 camps.
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-28 Thread JS



G:Alot of emphasis is put on the fact that the Quran was revealed in stages
Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation hath been vouchsafed unto men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity... if the Sun of Truth were suddenly to reveal, at the earliest stages of its manifestation, the full measure of the potencies which the providence of the Almighty hath bestowed upon it, the earth of human understanding would waste away and be consumed; for men's hearts would neither sustain the intensity of its revelation, nor be able to mirror forth the radiance of its light. Dismayed and overpowered, they would cease to exist. 
-Baha'u'llah
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Finality of Qur'an - Seal of the Prophets Revisited

2005-01-27 Thread JS

Hi All,

I am not worthy of writing this message because of my materialistic andshamefultendencies. But I feel I've been inspired (only God Wills and only God Knows),torevisit the topic of Finality. May whispers of 'the Most Great Name', which only originatefrom on High, shatter the wallsthatI myself build around me, wallsthat deafen meto the Voice of His Pen, blind me to the Shadow of His Posture,mute meto thePerfume of His Hair, and numb meto the Silk of His Robe.

Ifwe take this topic on in a systematic way, we can improve our understanding ofthe positionrevealed by the Bab and Baha'u'llah,and how/whythis ideadiffers from the Traditional Islamic view. Here is an outline that I just threw together with God's help, if He willed, that may be helpful:

1. Qur'anic support for continuity of Guidance ( ignoring whether this guidance isthrough Saints(Sufis/Ahmadiyya) or through Prophets (Baha'i) )
2a.Qur'anic support forthe finality of the Nation (of Islam)
2b. Qur'anic support foran end toevery Nation
3a. Qur'anic support for Muhammad asSeal of Prophets
3b.Qur'anic support for continuity of Prophets likeunto Muhammad
4a. Qur'anic support for the completeness of the Qur'an
4b. Qur'anic support for future abrogationof theQur'an
5. Qur'anicsupport forJudgement Day (beyond an individual's death)
6.Qur'anicsupport fora judgementof people during thedays of older Prophets (i.e. Noah)
7.Sufi idea of continuity of Guidance through 'Saints' or 'Perfect Men', who are still under the shadow of Muhammad and the Qur'an
8. Baha'i idea of continuity of Prophethood and Abrogation of the Qur'an through 'Manifestations of God' equal toMuhammadwith new "Books" equal to the Qur'an, both of which are beyond the shadow of Muhammad and the Qur'an
9a.Qur'anicproofthatMuhammad is different from past Prophets
9b. Qur'anic proof that the Qur'an isdifferent from past Books
10a.Qur'anic proof that Muhammad is the same as past Prophets
10b. Qur'anic proof that the Qur'an is the same as pastBooks
11a. Evidence from Torah and Bible that their Prophets were different from past Prophets
11b. Evidence from Torah and Bible that their Bookswere different from past Books

12. Is there Qur'anic evidencethat all Prophets, including Muhammad who is Their Seal, are followed by newer Prophets and newer Books? If Points 1 - 11 are established, isn't this the only plausible conclusion? Also, would the view that 'Prophets and Books have ended' be Triumphalistic in nature?

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Kitab-i-Iqan pg. 7 - Part 1

2005-01-27 Thread JS

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: "And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: `Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.'"1 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-k!
nown
books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: "Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers."1 -Baha'u'llah

* Among the Prophets was Noah.

1) Qur'an 11:25-26 We sent Noah to his people (with a mission): "I have come to you with a Clear Warning: That ye serve none but God: Verily I do fear for you the penalty of a grievous day."

* For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace.

1) Genesis 9:29 - And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

2) Yusuf Ali - Noah's mission was to a wicked world, plunged in sin. The mission had a double character, as in the mission of all Prophets of Allah: it had to warn men against evil and call them to repentance, and it had to give them the glad tidings of Allah's Grace in case they turned back to Allah: it was a Guidance and Mercy.

3) Qur'an 11:28- He said: "O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it? And O my people! I ask you for no wealth in return: my reward is from none but God: But I will not drive away (in contempt) those who believe: for verily they are to meet their Lord, and ye I see are the ignorant ones! And O my people! who would help me against God if I drove them away? Will ye not then take heed? I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor claim I to be an angel. Nor yet do I say, of those whom your eyes do despise that God will not grant them (all) that is good: God knoweth best what is in their souls: I should, if I did, indeed be a wrong-doer."__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of !
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Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson

2005-01-27 Thread JS

Hi Iskandar,

I think you are misunderstanding Gilberto and his intentions. I do not think he is saying that Baha'is don't take morality seriously, so there is no need for an apology. Gilberto is stating the Islamic stance on the issue, which is different from the Baha'i view. I am positive he is aware that Baha'is take morality seriously.
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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2005-01-26 Thread JS



I do believe what ever Baha'u'llah penned was the Words of God. His Person being the Supreme Manifestation of God. But at the same time He had a physical body with many physical limitation very similar to ours. When He says that He is in pain, that may not be the Word of God that He is expressing, He as a human being feels pain and expresses his feeling.
JS: I do not believewe can separate these with our limited and imperfectmind or heart.
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Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.



Mark:Personally, I doubt that Mormonism would have similar global appeal as in the U.S. It is, in many ways, the ultimate religion of American romanticism. JS:
And I think for this reason it is surprising that Islam and the Baha'i Faith have grown so fast in the US (Islam recently and Baha'i over the last 50 years).
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Kitab-i-Iqan pp. 5-6

In like manner, those words that have streamed forth from the source of power and descended from the heaven of glory are innumerable and beyond the ordinary comprehension of man. To them that are possessed of true understanding and insight the Súrah of Húd surely sufficeth. Ponder a while those holy words in your heart, and, with utter detachment, strive to grasp their meaning. Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and denials uttered by the children of negation and falsehood, perchance you may cause the bird of the human heart to wing its flight away from the abodes of heedlessness and doubt unto the nest of faith and certainty, and drink deep from the pure waters of ancient wisdom, and partake of the fruit of the tree of divine knowledge. Such is the share of the pure in heart of the bread that hath descended from the rea!
 lms of
 eternity and holiness. 

Should you acquaint yourself with the indignities heaped upon the Prophets of God, and apprehend the true causes of the objections voiced by their oppressors, you will surely appreciate the significance of their position. Moreover, the more closely you observe the denials of those who have opposed the Manifestations of the divine attributes, the firmer will be your faith in the Cause of God. Accordingly, a brief mention will be made in this Tablet of divers accounts relative to the Prophets of God, that they may demonstrate the truth that throughout all ages and centuries the Manifestations of power and glory have been subjected to such heinous cruelties that no pen dare describe them. Perchance this may enable a few to cease to be perturbed by the clamour and protestations of the divines and the foolish of this age, and cause them to strengthen their confidence and
 certainty. 
Baha'u'llah

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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp. 5-6 Surah of Hud

To them that are possessed of true understanding and insight the Súrah of Húd surely sufficeth. Ponder a while those holy words in your heart, and, with utter detachment, strive to grasp their meaning. Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and denials uttered by the children of negation and falsehood, perchance you may cause the bird of the human heart to wing its flight away from the abodes of heedlessness and doubt unto the nest of faith and certainty, and drink deep from the pure waters of ancient wisdom, and partake of the fruit of the tree of divine knowledge. Such is the share of the pure in heart of the bread that hath descended from the rea! lms of eternity and holiness.

-Baha'u'llah

Surah of Prophet Hud. This is Al-Hilali/Khan's translation.

11:1 (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge, etc.), and then explained in detail from One (Allâh), Who is All-Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things).
** "This Book" is primarily a reference to the Qur'an. Baha'u'llah implies in the Kitab-i-Iqan that "This Book" is also a reference to the Bayan, the Bab's primary Book, and to the Corpus of His own Writings, including the Kitab-i-Iqan and the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

11:2 (Saying) worship none but Allâh. Verily, I (Muhammad ) am unto you from Him a warner and a bringer of glad tidings.
** Again, the "I" may also apply to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

11:5 No doubt! They did fold up their breasts, that they may hide from Him. Surely, even when they cover themselves with their garments, He knows what they conceal and what they reveal. Verily, He is the All-Knower of the (innermost secrets) of the breasts.

11:7. And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic. "
** And today, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are considered magicians.

11:8. And if We delay the torment for them till a determined term, they are sure to say, "What keeps it back?" Verily, on the day it reaches them, nothing will turn it away from them, and they will be surrounded by (fall in) that at which they used to mock!
** All people today ask if the Great Day has arrived with the coming of Baha'u'llah, then what keeps the tormnent back?

11:12. So perchance you (Muhammad ) may give up a part of what is revealed unto you, and that your breast feels straitened for it because they say, "Why has not a treasure been sent down unto him, or an angel has come with him?" But you are only a warner. And Allâh is a Wakîl (Disposer of affairs, Trustee, Guardian, etc.) over all things.
** And today, people look around and see numerous people claiming to be the Mahdi of our time, or a prophet to guide all the people. When Baha'u'llah announced Himself, people said, and still say, "why has not a treasure been sent down unto him, or an angel has come with him?"

11:13. Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad ) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged Sûrah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allâh (to your help), if you speak the truth!"
** People today say that Baha'u'llah forged his Writings. Let anyone, declares the Qur'an, attempt to write anything equivalent to Baha'u'llah's writings.

11:14. If then they answer you not, know then that the Revelation (this Qur'ân) is sent down with the Knowledge of Allâh and that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa: (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! Will you then be Muslims (those who submit to Islâm)?
** The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is therefore sent down with the Knowledge of Allah.

11:17. Can they (Muslims) who rely on a clear proof (the Qur'ân) from their Lord, and whom a witness [Prophet Muhammad through Jibrael (Gabriel)] from Him follows it (can they be equal with the disbelievers); and before it, came the Book of Mûsa (Moses), a guidance and a mercy, they believe therein, but those of the sects (Jews, Christians and all the other non-Muslim nations) that reject it (the Qur'ân), the Fire will be their promised meeting-place. So be not in doubt about it (i.e. those who denied Prophet Muhammad and also denied all that which he brought from Allâh, surely, they will enter Hell). Verily, it is the truth from your Lord, but most of the mankind believe not .
** Similarly, those people that reject it (the Revelation of Baha'u'llah), the Fire will be their promised meeting-place.

** The Qur'an then recounts the story of Hud. The story of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are a replay of Hud's day. The Bab and Baha'u'llah said the same things Hud said, and the Muslims of today reply the same way that the people in A'ad replied.

11:50 - 11:60 (Picktnell)
And unto (the tribe of) A'ad (We sent) their brother, Hud.
He said:
O my people! Serve Allah! Ye have no other

Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson



I do not take all of the comments here about the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha asevidencethat Muhammad was evil or had ill intentions. 
As our society changes, there is a need to renew the Revelation of God, which is, after all, written forUS inOUR language based onOUR society.As our society changes, God's RevelationTO USchanges, while God's Revelation is in essence always One.
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Re: Good versus God [was Arson]

2005-01-24 Thread JS



Mark:I am saying that "goodness" (or "badness") is simply a name to signify what a particular Prophet, group, or ordinary individual regards as being good (or bad).JS: 
So are you saying that nothing above and beyond what the Manifestations reveal exists in man's mind, heart, or his environment to manifest signs of and lessons on, goodness? In other words, God has no interaction with man outside of the interaction between man and the Manifestation. If goodness is only the product of the Pen and Tongue of the Manifestation, then animal behavior cannot be bad or good, since the animal cannot understand the Manifestation. A snake biting and poisoning a rabbit, for example, cannot be described as 'bad' or 'murder'. Likewise, since man cannot understand God, just as a dog cannot understand Baha'u'llah, we cannot know, and we cannot understand, what goodness or badness is to God except as manifested through His Manifestations. 


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Re: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-24 Thread JS

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:53:13 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Dear Rich, The payment of jizya continued until the time of Baha'u'llah. I don't have time now to get into the story of how this insidious tax At various times depending on circumstances jizya was sometimescollected and sometimes not. And again, if you are calling it aninsidious tax why would God EVER tell anyone to impose it?JS: Ahang, I think Gilberto as a good question... Why would someone characterize it that way? I am not pointing the finger at you, since I have seen different aspects of Islam characterized that way by different people and authors? Is it
(a) that people normally leave off the reservation that it is insidious in our time and it was not insidious during the time of Muhammad,
or (b) it is insidious because the true Law of the Qur'an was supposed to be symbolic and never implemented, that jizya is actually a misinterpretation, by Muslims, of the Qur'an ?

Thanks Most Respectfully Ahang. I have enjoyed your work (that I have come across on the net ). How did Baha'u'llah influence Nassir id Din Shah that is not in Balyuzi's book?? Please tell us!__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-24 Thread JS





(a) that people normally leave off the reservation that it is insidious in our time and it was not insidious during the time of Muhammad, 
or (b) it is insidious because the true Law of the Qur'an was supposed to be symbolic and never implemented, that jizya is actually a misinterpretation, by Muslims, of the Qur'an ?
Option (c) could be that it had good intentions, but due to the misbehavior of Muslim leaders, it turned the law 'insidious'. 
Similarly,the 'outward jihad' was turned into the most evil act when Usama's 2 planes crashed into the towers.

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Re: Arson

2005-01-23 Thread JS

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west (so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how exactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?  JS: Doubling is the key word here. If the fine for adultery is $100, it will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd time, $800 4th time, $1600 5th, $3200 6th, $6400 7th, $12800 8th, $25600 9th, $51200 10th, $102,400 11th. I don't think I would be able to affort to do it more than 7 times. Wow, do you have a spouse who would let you cheat on her 7 times?I think even thinking about it would put me on the couch for weeks.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail!
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Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,


All the perennialisms I have observed are deductive systems. They begin with certain first principles and read them into various religious and spiritual systems. That is what I meant by triumphalist.You replied:That seems really odd to me. I would tend to think of triumphalism more as an attitude of superiority.Exactly. You don't see my point? If you begin with a set of first principles, and you then deductively read them into various religious and spiritual systems, isn't that an attitude of superiority?JS: That's fascinating. Didn't realize that.
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Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,

Mark: In arguing for equality, all perennialists whose works I have read have imposed a certain "essence" on the different religions or spiritualities.

JS: Mark, I love the clarity of your writing, and the distinction you makebetween perennialism and Baha'i Progressive Revelation, and how the former and not the latter, is triumphalistic.
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Re: Arson

JS: I didn't say it has anything to do with whether or not we have a country. The House of Justice still has the right to decide when to implement the law of burning the arsonist, it at all. I don't think it ever will be.G: Why would the punishment be in the book if it wasn't ever supposed tobe enforced?JS: I think that two options are presented, and it is left to the House of Justice to pick the one most suitable to society.In a similar way, Baha'u'llah superficially allows bigamy, maybe only to present the Aqdasin the form of theQur'an. And just as theQur'anconditions polygamy on 'justice',and the Aqdasmakes 'tranquility' an outcomeof only monogamy. Who wouldn't want to be tranquil?
G: They fall short.
JS: Do you think it ispossible to have a'truly Islamic' nation? Also, don't you think that Islam is going the wrong way, I mean, it is getting more corrupted, it is deviating farther and farther away from the ideal? At one point, the Islamic worldwas the cradle of civilization, and now it has been reduced to fanaticism, terrorism, poverty, ignorance, intolerance, etc. Not a single praiseworthy Islamic nations exists on earth... What makes you think it is going to improve? And the Islamic countries that seem to be heading in the right directly are secularized/ing.
G: I don't think secular regimes are necessarily the best argument for whatyou are trying to say.
JS: What would be a better argument?G: Personally, I think that it is possible to outline certain featureswhich constitute a "good government" but this should be independentfrom a particular ideology.JS: What do you mean?__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,



MARK:One of the best antidotes for triumphalism is historicism which is opposed by most perennialists whose works I have read.JS:
Mark,are you refering to this meaing of historicism? "Most recently, Historicism has been used by post-modernist thinkers to describe the view that there is no absolute truth about deep philosophical questions that should stand for all time."
Are you also saying that Baha'i Progressive Revelation is essentially historicist?__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,



G:
At the worst, what perennialists might be doing is romanticizing thepast. Talking about the noble savage and all that. But from theperspective of "progressive revelation" the past is being demonizedand those people of the past are considered savages, withoutbothering to consider them particularly noble.
JS: Gilberto, I don't think progressive revelation (PR)implies a demonization of the past because it (PR) also states that truth is relative and not absolute. So this characterization (ie. saying that Islamic law is savage)is relative to what is considered savage/civil today. In the past, it would not have been considered savage.

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Re: Perennial Bab?




[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The main concept which prevented me from accepting it was the near universal understanding of "the seal" among Muslims. For that reason, I gravitated more towards Eckankar (surat shabd yoga), Thelema, Theosophy, Vedanta, and (briefly) Sikhism.

Susan: Of course Mani, the founder of the Manichean religion, used that title long before Muhammad adopted it. 

JS: On the same note, I remember reading somewhere that the notions of Sonship (one parent) and of resurrection (as in from the tomb after the crucifixion) were promoted by people before Jesus. Do you know who they were?
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Re: Arson the New World Order

G: What criteria are you ultimately using to determine whether somethingis "humane""? Are you basically just going by popular opinion? Orsomething else? Do the Bahai writings actually say that thepunishments found in the Quran are inhumane for the present day? Or isthat something you are just saying?
JS: Maybe humane was a loaded word that doesn't exactly describe what I mean. A better word would have been 'applicable to our time'. It may indirectly be based on popular opinion, but it is something that becomes apparent in the light of where society and human maturity is.I cannot say that I have seen the word inhumane used in the Baha'i writings in reference to Islamic law, but I have seen statements that describe Islamic Law as no longer applicable in our time.
G: If you read in the Bible (or the Quran for that matter) even inancient times, people were imprisoned from time to time for variousoffensese. If imprisonment was really the more human option, and itexisted in earlier times, why wouldn't those religions have simplymandated imprisonment?J: I would say that completely mandated imprisonment would have been an insufficient deterrant to the people in the ancient times.
JS:
I think that in the next few decades and centuries, secularism will overtake the planet, until the Baha'i Faith blossoms into maturity and brings spirituality back into civilization and governance.G: Is that an actual Bahai prediction or is it just your opinion?JS: Yes, this is my understanding of Shoghi Effendi's predictions. See "World Order of Baha'u'llah" of Shoghi Effendi. Here are some excerpts I separated into 5 sections below:
1)Emergence of Baha'u'llah's New World Order:
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, whose supreme mission is none other but the achievement of this organic and spiritual unity of the whole body of nations, should, if we be faithful to its implications, be regarded as signalizing through its advent the coming of age of the entire human race.
The Revelation entrusted by the Almighty Ordainer to Bahá'u'lláh, His followers firmly believe, has been endowed with such potentialities as are commensurate with the maturity of the human race--the crowning and most momentous stage in its evolution from infancy to manhood.
2) Disintegration of today's society
Deep as is the gloom that already encircles the world, the afflictive ordeals which that world is to suffer are still in preparation, nor can their blackness be as yet imagined. We stand on the threshold of an age whose convulsions proclaim alike the death-pangs of the old order and the birth-pangs of the new.
3) Secularization overtaking Islam, Europe, and America
The collapse of the power of the Shí'ih hierarchy, in a land which had for centuries been one of the impregnable strongholds of Muslim fanaticism, was the inevitable consequence of that wave of secularization which, at a later time, was to invade some of the most powerful and conservative ecclesiastical institutions in both the European and American continents.
This menace of secularism that has attacked Islám and is undermining its remaining institutions, that has invaded Persia, has penetrated into India, and raised its triumphant head in Turkey, has already manifested itself in both Europe and America, and is, in varying degrees, and under various forms and designations, challenging the basis of every established religion, and in particular the institutions and communities identified with the Faith of Jesus Christ.
4) Fall of Islam
"O people of the Qur'án," Bahá'u'lláh, addressing the combined forces of Sunní and Shí'ih Islám, significantly affirms, "Verily, the Prophet of God, Muhammad, sheddeth tears at the sight of your cruelty. Ye have assuredly followed your evil and corrupt desires, and turned away your face from the light of guidance. Erelong will ye witness the result of your deeds; for the Lord, My God, lieth in wait and is watchful of your behavior... O concourse of Muslim divines! By your deeds the exalted station of the people hath been abased, the standard of Islám hath been reversed, and its mighty throne hath fallen."
Both Sunní and Shí'ih Islám had, through the convulsions that had seized them, contributed to the acceleration of the disruptive process to which I have previously referred--a process which, by its very nature, is to pave the way for that complete reorganization and unification which the world, in every aspect of its life, must achieve.
5) Fall of Christianity
That the forces of irreligion, of a purely materialistic philosophy, of unconcealed paganism have been unloosed, are now spreading, and, by consolidating themselves, are beginning to invade some of the most powerful Christian institutions of the western world, no unbiased observer can fail to admit.

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Re: Arson



G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west(so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) howexactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?JS: Doubling is the key word here. If the fine for adultery is $100, it will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd time, $800 4th time, $1600 5th, $3200 6th, $6400 7th, $12800 8th, $25600 9th, $51200 10th, $102,400 11th. I don't think I would be able to affort to do it more than 7 times. Billionaires mayhave the money for25 offenses, or $1.7 Billion.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85



 JS: LOL, yeah, Abdu'l-Baha clarifies that it doesn't change, and at the same time, it actually DOES change in some ways (contradictory and 'having-the-cake-and-eating-it simultaneously', I realize). To prevent people from getting too attached to a name (i.e. "Jesus", "Qur'an", "Muhammad", "Torah", and "Baha'u'llah"), God renews the religions, its Name, its Book, its Main-man. G: I don't think that is a compelling reason. People can get "unattached"without converting.
JS:An atheistcan also argue, using the same line of reasoning as yours: "It is not a'compelling reason'. People can be good without religion God period."
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:That's really not funny.By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.Regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger."  Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic -
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were defensive actions against attacks by Muslims. JS:
Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah?
I'll answer it myself... No.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Planned obsolscence

"jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think itis necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should takeit up with the author"
Yes, this work of theAuthor is well beyond the expiry date.
Planned obsolescence (also built-in obsolescence (UK)) is the conscious decision on the part ofGod to produce aReligion that will become obsolete in a defined time frame. Planned obsolescence has great benefits forGod in that it meansthat manwillbelieve in His Manifestation repeatedly, asHis oldone is no longer functional or desirable due to human mis-interpretation, dogma, corruption, and general day-to-day involvement. There is, however, the potential human backlash that become aware of such obsolesence; suchhumans can shed their loyalty to God andpledge allegiance to another God that caters to their want of a more durable religion or Manifestation.
Planned obsolescence was developed in the1000s B.C.when the humanmindhad opened every minute aspect of theManifestations teachingsto exacting analysis and interpretation albeit imperfect human analysis and interpretation.
Human estimates of planned obsolescence can influence God's decisions aboutreligious Revelation;there is littledivine reason to make a religionthat lasts longer than anyone is expected to use it. Therefore God can use themost humble Represetativethat satisfyreligious lifetime projections. Such decisions are part of a broader discipline known as value of the Revelation of the Manifestation.
Expiry dates
All aspects of religion have expiry dates long before they become fully corrupted or unusable. Prayer laws, fasting laws, and laws related to moral conduct ethical behavior have dates that if exceeded will not be hazardous. Other aspects of religion also err greatly on the side of caution meaning that vast amounts of perfectly goodaspects of the religionare thrown out eachtime a new Manifestation comes.
(Based on Wikipedia's description)
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Re: Planned obsolscence

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:17:20 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 7:16:12 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You don't need to say it. I realized a very long time ago that Bahais think of previous religions as spoiled milk. Peace Gilberto Please do not lump us in a group like that.Sorry. I was being short-tempered.-Gilberto
J: And mine was maybe a bad attempt at humor.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5




Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face - the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book.
JS By relating the passage above with the information Gilberto provided about Christian openness to revelations and prophets from God, one realizes that the 'promised Beauty' to Christians these days is the coming of Jesus Himself.Unfortunately, Christians do not recognize that Muhammad is that 'promised Beauty', and not just a prophet inferior to Jesus, who received revelation from God.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4-5 [letter 11] moving forward

Khazeh, where are you?Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:






Dear Gilberto
Highly respected correspondent 
When I wrote:
 Already we see a term introduced in the first pages of the Sacred Iqan 
 which would be "new" to the hearer [particularly] from the Islamic background.
 Baha'u'llah calls the Prophets of God _"MANIFESTATIONS of God in the 
 sanctified persons of His chosen Ones"
You [GS] wrote:
I thought the concept Manifestation was already a part of Shi`ism? Gilberto

I think you are absolutely right dear Gilberto. Shaykh Haydar Amuli, and Astarabadi and others spoke in these elevated terms and used the term Manifestation. I think you are definitely right. Thanks for correcting this servant. [but I think the Babi/Bahái Writings gave a great frequency to it [227 times in one count of Bahaullahs Writings for the singular and 156 times for the plural]

But, as I say, you are right.


In Shiih Books you find these statements which are Manifestation language.
The Imam Sadiq hath said: "When our Qa'im will arise, the earth will shine with the light of her Lord." Likewise, a lengthy tradition is attributed to Abi-'Abdi'llah - peace be upon him [the Sixth Imam [kf]- in which these sublime words are found: "Thereupon will He Who is the All-Compelling - exalted and glorified be He - descend from the clouds with the angels." And in the mighty Qur'an: "What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds?" And in the tradition of Mufaddal [quoting the 6th Imam kf] it is said: "The Qa'im will lean His back against the Sanctuary, and will stretch forth His hand, and lo, it shall be snow-white but unhurt. And He shall say: `This is the hand of God, the right hand of God, that cometh from God, at the command of God!'" In whichever manner these traditions are interpreted, in that same manner let them also interpret that which the Most Sublime Pen [Bahaullah] hath set down. The Commander of the Faithful (Imam Ali) hath said: "I am He Who can neither be named, nor described." And likewise He hath said: "Outwardly I am an Imam; inwardly I am the Unseen, the Unknowable." Abu-Ja'far-i-Tusi hath said: "I said to Abi Abdi'llah [the 6th Imam J!
 afar
 S.Adiq]: `You [the Imams kf] are the Way mentioned in the Book of God, and you are the Impost, and you are the Pilgrimage.' He replied: `O man! We are the Way mentioned in the Book of God, - exalted and glorified be He - and We are the Impost, and We are the Fast, and We are the Pilgrimage, and We are the Sacred Month, and We are the Sacred City, and We are the Kaaba of God, and We are the Qiblih of God, and We are the Face of God.'" Jabir hath said that Abu-Ja'far - peace be upon him - spoke to him as follows: "O Jabir! Give heed unto the Bayan (Exposition) and the Ma'ani (Significances)." He - peace !
 be upon
 him - added: "As to the Bayan, it consisteth in thy recognition of God - glorified be He - as the One Who hath no equal, and in thy adoration of Him, and in thy refusal to join partners with Him. As to the Ma'ani, We are its meaning, and its side, and its hand, and its tongue, and its cause, and its command, and its knowledge, and its right. If We wish for something, it is God Who wisheth it, and He desireth that which We desire." Moreover, the Commander of the Faithful (Imam Ali) - peace be upon him - hath said: "How can I worship a Lord Whom I have not seen?" And, in another connection, he saith: "Nothing have I perceived except that I perceived God before it, God after it, or God with it." 
 (Baha'u'llah: quoting the sayings of the Imams)***

All these sayings this servant has identified

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View of Islam


from http://www.bci.org/islam-bahai/views.html
Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West: 
'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.' 
Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: Southern Baptists Pray for Destruction of Hindu Temples

Interestingly, the tsunami left many mosques unharmed.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85

Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which hath been the cause of such denial on the part of those who have searched with such earnestness and longing. Their attack hath been more fierce than tongue or pen can describe. Not one single Manifestation of Holiness hath appeared but He was afflicted by the denials, the repudiation, and the vehement opposition of the people around Him. Thus it hath been revealed: "O the misery of men! No Messenger cometh unto them but they laugh Him to scorn." Again He saith: "Each nation hath plotted darkly against their Messenger to lay violent hold on Him, and disputed with vain words to invalidate the truth."
JS:
This paragraph fits in well with the Qu'ranic statement that "Islam" is the only religion acceptable to God. Had the people realized that this is the one True religion, The message of Baha'u'llah would have been accepted, as would have Prophet Muhammad when he came to the Jews and Christians.
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). - Qur'an 3:85

"The Muslim position is clear. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself. Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all Religion is one, for the Truth is one. It was the religion preached by all the earlier prophets. It was the truth taught by all the inspired Books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the Will and Plan of Allah and a joyful submission to that Will and Plan. If anyone wants a religion other than that, he is false to his own nature, as he is false to Allah's Will and Plan. Such a one cannot expect guidance, for he has deliberately renounced guidance." - Muslim Scholar Abdu'llah Yusuf Ali commentary
"Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause--a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it--verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures. " -Baha'u'llah
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Quran 3:85 and Aqdas 1:1-1:2

I find these two passagesvery similar in content.
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). - Qur'an 3:85 
The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. -
Baha'u'llah - Aqdas 1, Sentences 1 and 2.


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Re: Quran 3:85 and Aqdas 1:1-1:2



Gilberto: I tend to think of them as very different. The passage in the Qurandoesn't say anything whatsoever about recognizing a specific person.Islam is defined more by surrendering to God/Allah who never changes.This, in my opinion, is more important than being attached to names.
JS: Yes, good point, I do see that differencein *clarity,*directness,and *inambiguitybetween the two passages. However, in my opinion, the attachment to names makes more sense if look at in this way, especially since other verses revealed by Baha'u'llah suggest that "Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws" is the same Spirit in every age: * Attachment to the book revealed by Muhammad, the Qur'an, and viewing it as the only Perfect Book. (Like Christian view of Jesus as only Way).
Gilberto: The passage in the Bahai writings, to be honest, rubs me the wrong waybeceause it sounds alot like some groups within ProtestantChristianity which teach that even people who seem outwardly good willbe damned to hell just because they didn't believe in Jesus. Iunderstand that not all Bahais necessarily believe that and that someother passages in the Bahai writings might suggest different things,but the passage you quoted definitely does seem to be saying that evenif you are the "author of every righteous deed" you need to recognizethe right person or else you are in trouble.JS: Yes, Shoghi Effendi and Abdu'l-Baha (as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's writings)clarify that this passage should not be viewed in a vacuum, and other versesby Baha'u'llah bringit intoproper perspective. It is more explicitly statedby Baha'u'llah, but Qur'an 3:85 suggests the same thing by saying !
 that
 non-Muslims are 'losers'. Luckily in the Baha'i Faith we have Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as authorized interpreters who cleared this up. Unfortunately, within Islam, there isn't one source of authority, and althoughthis opennessleads to a great deal of diversity in Islamic belief/thought, it also leaves the door open to groups like the Taliban, and governments like the IRI.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:45:40 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "[...] This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it--verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures. " -Baha'u'llah If that's the case then the true faith doesn't change.JS: LOL, yeah, Abdu'l-Baha clarifies that it doesn't change, and at the same time, it actuallyDOES change in some ways (contradictory and 'having-the-cake-and-eating-it simultaneously', I realize). To prevent people from getting too attached to a name (i.e. "Jesus", "Qur'an", "Muhammad", "Torah", and "Baha'u'llah"), God renews the religions, its Name, its Book, its Main-man. When the next 'Manifestation' comes after Baha'u'llah, he or she will be someone new, withperhaps a whole new book. But I don't know, I re!
ad
somewhere that the next series of 'Manifestations' will still be under the shadow of Baha'u'llah, kind of like all the prophets that came between Moses and Jesus were still within the Mosaic tree.
Abdu'l-Baha separates the One True Religion into two components : (1) Essential and (2) Non-Essential. Non-essentials may change from one religion to another. Essentials never change. Non-Essentials are the actual stories andwordsin the Book, the Name of the Prophet, the Name of the Religion, the specific Laws about prayer, fasting, etc. The Essentials are deeper and more mystical, but this aspect of the One True Religion is always the same.
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Re: Quran 3:85 and Aqdas 1:1-1:2

Gilberto:
Bahais, are typically going to be "attached" to Bahaullah.
Mark: There is a difference between being attached to Baha'u'llah, as the Soul Who incarnates the Will, Word, and Cause of God and being attached to the historical personality of Mirza Husayn Ali.
Gilberto:But then does each person have a distinct soul, or is the same soulreturning each time?JS: In short,humans have distinct soulswhile Manifestations only have one soul. But it is a bit more complicated than this.
Abdu'l-Baha describes that the humanspirit is made of4 different parts while the spirit of the Manifestation is composed of5 different parts.
TheHUMAN SPIRITis composed of the following parts:
1. Vegetable Spirit - something like the spirit that animates living organisms when you combine the components of cells.
2. Animal Spirit - which includes things like the power of the senses: sight, sound, touch, smell, etc.
3. Human Spirit - which includes the mind, intellect, ability to know God, ability to know self (i.e. divine and satanic)
4. Heavenly Spirit of Faith, Bountyof God- This spirit is created by God in man. When the spirit of faith is created, man transforms from impure to pure, and allow man to escape the self.
The MANIFESTATION's SPIRIT.
The manifestation has all these spirits, plus one more. This last Spirit is one and the same, and in this respect, Buddha is Jesus is Muhammad is Baha'u'lah.
5. The Holy Spirit - "Every time it appears, the world is renewed, and a new cycle is founded. The body of the world of humanity puts on a new garment. It can be compared to the spring; whenever it comes, the world passes from one condition to another. Through the advent of the season of spring the black earth and the fields and wildernesses will become verdant and blooming, and all sorts of flowers and sweet-scented herbs will grow; the trees will have new life, and new fruits will appear, and a new cycle is founded." -Abdu'l-Baha

"In the same way, the appearance of Bahá'u'lláh was like a new springtime which appeared with holy breezes, with the hosts of everlasting life, and with heavenly power. It established the Throne of the Divine Kingdom in the center of the world and, by the power of the Holy Spirit, revived souls and established a new cycle. " -Abdu'l-Baha
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Re: Quran 3:85 and Aqdas 1:1-1:2

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:43:33 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto: Bahais, are typically going to be "attached" to Bahaullah. Mark: There is a difference between being attached to Baha'u'llah, as the Soul Who incarnates the Will, Word, and Cause of God and being attached to the historical personality of Mirza Husayn Ali. Gilberto: But then does each person have a distinct soul, or is the same soul returning each time? JS: In short, humans have distinct souls while Manifestations only have one soul.G:So if a person is attached to the person of Muhammad, and through himthe soul of Muhammad, then they will also be attached to the soul ofthe othe rmanifestations.
JS: That's a good point I can see that.
My question would be, why wouldI ignore the Soul of the manifestation when it appears in 622, but ignore the Same soul when it came back in 1844 ?

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Re: Quran 3:85 and Aqdas 1:1-1:2

Oops, I meant, 
My question would be, why wouldIACCEPT the Soul of the manifestation when it appears in 622, but ignore the Same soul when it came back in 1844 ?
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Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5

2005-01-19 Thread JS

Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face - the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book.
Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which hath been the cause of such denial on the part of those who have searched with such earnestness and longing. Their attack hath been more fierce than tongue or pen can describe. Not one single Manifestation of Holiness hath appeared but He was afflicted by the denials, the repudiation, and the vehement opposition of the people around Him. Thus it hath been revealed: "O the misery of men! No Messenger cometh unto them but they laugh Him to scorn."1 Again He saith: "Each nation hath plotted darkly against their Messenger to lay violent hold on Him, and disputed with vain words to invalidate the truth."2
1 Qurán 36:30.
2 Qurán 40:5.
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Re: the crucifixion of Jesus

2005-01-18 Thread JS

One way I would look at it is that the story is vivid in order to prove a point. Above and beyond the spiritual - allegorical point that is made, the story of Jesus's rising from the dead and walking around is fiction.
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 03:10:45 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "...We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after the resurrection is the same thing." -- From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 9, 1947 (cited: Lights of Guidance, p.493)Do you have any sense of what the post-crucifixion events would havelooked like to physical eyes (from the Bahai perspective)? How wouldyou understand the women seeing the Jesus at the tomb, and especiallyhow would one understand the role!
  that
 Doubting Thomas plays in thestory?PeaceGilberto"My people are hydroponic"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4 [letter 8]

2005-01-18 Thread JS





Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones.
 (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 4)

Does the primary meaning (based on the words used) of the phrase'high and low", refer to 'religious leaders and regular people', 'wise people and blind people', 'spiritual and non-spiritual','politicalleaders and regular people', 'just high and low',orsomething else?
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RE: Kitab-i-Iqan page 3-4 [letter 9]

2005-01-18 Thread JS



Your response reminds us all that we have to go back to the writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice for authority, and what we interpret from them forms our personal understanding, which cannot be imposed on anyone except ourselves...

Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear John Smith, You ask re" How many, both high and low" __: *Does theprimary meaning (based on the words used) of the phrase 'high and low" ,refer to 'religious leaders and regular people', 'wise people and blindpeople', 'spiritual and non-spiritual', 'political leaders and regularpeople', 'just high and low', or something else?__Dear John:The original states: line 7: A'ALII wa ADAANIYhttp://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/KI/ki-17.htmlof course this lowly one cannot interpret the Sacred Verse, butcorrelatively speaking it just means every one was expecting whatever theirlevel or background. But please recall** Joh 7:47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Joh 7:48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? Joh 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are
 cursed.**On the other verse, while we are still at it, let me share something.Re:***No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding excepthe be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. SANCTIFY YOURSOULS, O ye peoples of the world,(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 3)Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times,yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctifiedpersons of His chosen Ones(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 4)This SANCTIFICATION is actually very hard, very difficult. Today nearly 50million Twelver Shi'ihs still believe that a Child was born on the 15th ofSha'baan in the year 256 Hejra and that Child is still alive and beingnourished physically:The following is most typical of hundreds of sites:http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/history/al_mahdi(a.s.)/35.htm#link70"When we wish to speak on this to!
 pic and
 prove that Mahdi, the Expected oneis alive, receiving his sustenance and living a life just like others untilthe time when Allah gives him permission to emerge and establish the truthand Justice and destroy oppression, we are bound to mention before anythingelse, the following preliminaries:Firstly, it should be possible for man to live hundreds or rather thousandsof years and just as you are aware, science and nature do not repudiate thispossibility."However, in Twelver Shi'a, the twelfth Imam, Muhammed al-Mahdi, hidhimself way as a boy when his father, the Imam Hasan al-Askari, died in 874A.D.. This, in Shi'a, is called the doctrine of "occultation" (ghayba ). Hehid himself in a well within a cave because of the threats to his life byhis enemies, and remained in communication with the "four agents," eachsucceeding the other, until 941. This period, in which the Hidden Imam wasin contact with the rest of h!
 umanity
 through these agents who passed on theImam's messages to the world, is called the Lesser Occultation. However,starting in 941, the Hidden Imam ceased communicating to humanity throughthese agents; this period in which the Hidden Imam, still alive and onearth, cuts of all communication with humanity is known as the GreaterOccultation. However, at some point, Muhammed al-Mahdi, will return andreveal himself to humanity and appear again (zuhúr ). With him will returnfrom the dead all his enemies, and the Imam will lead the forces ofrighteousness against the forces of evil in one last battle after which willfollow the Day of Judgement. At that point will return Jesus Christ and allthe saints, prophets, and Imams of history; this, in Shi'a, is called thedoctrine of Return (raj'a ).http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/IMAM.HTM2] similarly millions and millions more believe Jesus Christ is physicallyalive and will com!
 e with
 the same physical body...So when the Sacred Iqan says SANCTIFY YOURSELVES this is a very veryfar-reaching divine instructionhttp://biblia.com/christ/ascension.htmThe God-Man in Heaven:Jesus returns to Heaven, to the same place where he is from eternity,but he returns a little different, as Man-God!, WITH THE SAME BODY, BLOOD,SOUL AND DIVINITY HE HAD ON EARTH. He ascends to receive the glory due toHim as a conqueror of sin and death (Phi.2:8-11). To be our Mediator andadvocate to the Father (Heb.9:24). To send the Holy Spirit as he promised inthe Last Supper (Jn.16:7). To prepare a place for us, as he also promised inthe Last supper (Jn.14:2).Now Jesus is seated at the Father's right hand (Lk.24:19), in the sameplace and with the same honour and power he had for eternity, for everythingwas created by Him and for Him, and everything is sustained by Him(Col.1:15-17,
 Jn.1:1-3)__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To

RE: Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4 [letter 6]

Khazeh, Awesome stuff!Please keep it coming.Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, theythat thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all thatis earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings,their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth.They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow inHis way.(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 3)We are still in the first page of this Great Book.In the Kitáb-i-Íqán itself, Bahá'u'lláh states that, "all the Scriptures,and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account," (Íqán 237)and that it can unfold "all the allusions and the implications of theutterances of the Manifestations of Holiness" (Íqán 28). The following are aselection of such quotations: ... the things We have already m!
entioned
suffice the world and all that istherein. In fact, all the Scriptures, and the mysteries thereof arecondensed into this brief account. So much so that were a person to ponderit a while in his heart, he would discover from all that hath been said themysteries of the Words of God, and would APPREHEND THE MEANING OF WHATEVERHATH BEEN MANIFESTED BY THAT IDEAL KING. (Íqán 237, emphasis added) Were you to ponder, but for a while, these utterances in your heart, youwould surely find the portals of understanding unlocked before your face,and would BEHOLD ALL KNOWLEDGE AND MYSTERIES THEREOF UNVEILED BEFORE YOUREYES. (Íqán. 52, emphasis added) This servant will now share with thee a dewdrop out of the fathomless oceanof the truths treasured in these holy words, that haply discerning heartsMAY COMPREHEND ALL THE ALLUSIONS AND THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE UTTERANCES OFTHE MANIFESTATIONS OF HOLINESS, SO THAT THE OVERPOWERING MAJESTY!
OF THE
WORDOF GOD MAY NOT PREVENT THEM FROM ATTAINING UNTO THE OCEAN OF HIS NAMES ANDATTRIBUTES, nor deprive them of recognising the Lamp of God which is theseat of the revelation of His glorified Essence. (Íqán. 28, emphasis added) Thus in the beginning of the Sacred Iqan Baha'u'llah invites humanity tocleanse, to sanctify, to purify, to get detached and then enter the WAY.Now it is interesting that in the Islamic Dispensation during the FIVE TIMESA DAY PRAYER [S.alaat] of Islam, a Moslem turns towards Mecca and says Ihdina alssirata almustaqeema***=001.006 YUSUFALI: Show us the straight way.PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path.Baha'u'llah in revealing His Mission/His Station/ His Revelation links thisvery word in the Moslem Prayer with His Mission.The word that is used in the 5-times a day prayer ie s.iraat. =Way.He revealsHe is the Most Wondrous, the All-Glorious!1.1Glorified is He Who hath !
revealed
His verses to those who understand.Glorified is He Who sendeth down His verses to those who perceive. Glorifiedis He Who guideth whomsoever He pleaseth unto His path. SAY: I, VERILY, AMTHE PATH [s.iraat ] OF GOD unto all who are in the heavens and all who areon the earth; well is it with them that hasten thereunto!(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 1)At this time Islam was divided:Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him)said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier toIsraelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resemblesthe other. Verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my peoplewill be divided into 73 sections.( Other than Tirmidhi, Ibne Maja givesthree independent narrations of the same hadith. Talking about theauthenticity of this hadith Abu Mansur Abd al-Kahir ibn-Tahir Al-Baghdadisays:"There are !
many
isnad (independent testimonies) for the tradition dealingwith the division of the community. A number of following companions havehanded it down as coming from the Prophet (peace be upon him): Anasibn-Malik, Abu-Hurairah, Abu-l-Darda, Jabir, Abu-Sa'id al-Khidri, Ubaiibn-Ka'b, Abd-Allah ibn-Amr ibn-al-'As, abu-Imamah, Wathilah ibn-al-Aska'and others.)Re Christianity [if I could dare to show some benign humour]***http://www.calvarymemorial.com/pastor_ray/sermons/pdf/110302rp.pdf**We Christians love to fight over our deeply-held beliefs. Unfortunately,sometimes we fight for things that dont matter very much.Once upon a time a man took a walk and came to a bridge.When he got to the middle of the bridge, he saw a man standing on the rail,obviously about to jump.The man was distraught so he said, "Dont jump. I can help you.""How can you help me?" asked the man on the rail.The first man replied w!
ith a
question of his own: "Are you a Christian?""Yes, I am.""Thats wonderful. So am I. Are you Catholic or Protestant?""Im Protestant.""Thats great. So am I. What sort of Protestant are you? Are you Baptist,Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or something else?""Im a lifetime Baptist," said the man on the rail."Praise the Lord," came the reply. "So am I. Let me ask you this.

Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4 [letter 6]

Hi Gilberto,

I think all Khazeh is doing is going through the Kitab-i-Iqan, doing a slow read of it, and relating the things Baha'u'llah says in the first two pages of the Kitab-i-Iqan to other Writings so that someone like me, for example, can see what exactly Baha'u'llah was talking about.

The words Baha'u'llah uses for "path" for example, is the same word, from what I just read, intentionally chosen by Baha'u'llah, as the same "path" or root arabic word for path, as what is used by the Muslim salaat prayers.

Someone like me reading the Iqan in English would never make that connection unless I knew Islam and Arabic in detail.
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Khazeh:On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:01:57 -, Khazeh Fananapazir<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: We are still in the first page of this Great Book. In the Kitáb-i-Íqán itself, Bahá'u'lláh states that, "all the Scriptures, and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account," (Íqán 237) and that it can unfold "all the allusions and the implications of the utterances of the Manifestations of Holiness" (Íqán 28).Gilberto:Is this something unique to the Kitab-i-Iqan? Or don't all therevelations of God similarly condense the meanings of all the otherrevelations from God?Khazeh: Now it is interesting that in the Islamic Dispensation during the FIVE TIMES A DAY PRAYER [S.alaat] of Islam, a Moslem turns towards Mecca and says Ihdina alssirata
almustaqeema***= 001.006 YUSUFALI: Show us the straight way. PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path. Baha'u'llah in revealing His Mission/His Station/ His Revelation links this very word in the Moslem Prayer with His Mission.[...] 1.1 Glorified is He Who hath revealed His verses to those who understand. Glorified is He Who sendeth down His verses to those who perceive. Glorified is He Who guideth whomsoever He pleaseth unto His path. SAY: I, VERILY, AM THE PATH [s.iraat ] OF GOD unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth; well is it with them that hasten thereunto! (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 1)Gilberto:So are you saying that Bahaullah is THE way in a unique sense so thatfollowing the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) is NOT the way? Or are yousaying both are the way?In the Bible, Jesus is made to say!
"I am
the way, the truth, and thelife. And no one comes to the father but through me". Bahaullah isn'tthe only one who claimed to be the path.An image that some people have of the different religions is that eachone is like a different path up the side of a mountain. But they allmeet at the same spot on the top. So at one level, some members ofeach religion will try to pull others onto their path, because theythink their path is the best one, or maybe even the only one. But inreality, their path isn't better than any of the others. At this time Islam was divided: Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other. Verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections.( Oth!
er than
Tirmidhi, Ibne Maja gives three independent narrations of the same hadith. Gilberto:Something I've noticed about the way communication happens is thatthere is alot of cutting and pasting, and not much actual writing.There are probably pragmatic reasons for that in terms of time. But Ithink there are also perhaps other reasons. What is a littleunsettling is that these passages are thrown out, and you obviouslyhave some reason for picking them, or you have something you wantothers (or me) to see. But you don't actually say what that is. So Iwish you could be more honest and candid about what you are trying tosay.But speaking to the hadith you quoted, from my perspective the Bahaifaith has its own sects as well and it is still rather young so I'mnot certain what you are getting at.PeaceGilberto"My people are hydroponic"__You are
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Re: My people are hydroponic

Gilberto, 

???

There are more Baha'is in countries where Baha'u'llah never went to than there are Baha'is in countries He was exiled to.

Secondly, Baha'u'llah taught that one is a World Citizen first, and that patriotism is subservient to it.

India, African, the Americas, for example, make up more than 80% of Baha'is. There are maybea couple thousand Baha'isin all the Arab countries combined. They are all underground because it is illegal in most of them.

Also, Iranians are not Arabs. Iranians have an Indo-European language (Persian) and are descended from Russia and Eastern Europe. Persian Language is related to English, Germanand some Indian languages.

Iran still does have a sizable Baha'i community, but here are the top countries with Baha'i populations:

India
Iran
USA
Viet Nam
Kenya
Bolivia
Uganda


Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:02:08 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Maybe Baha'is are hydroponic too, because Baha'u'llah and his companions were exiled all over the middle east, and now Baha'is are scattered around the globe, and consider themselves world citizens first, then citizens of their own countries.It would depend on the Bahai. But I would say Bahaullah was definitelyfrom Persia for many generations and if you wanted to go wider thenhe's from the Middle East. That's still fairly rooted in soil.PeaceGilberto__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i
 Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: My people are hydroponic

Hi Gilberto, Thanks for the background, very interesting.My wife is of Western European descent (Irish, English, and German)and is a fluent Spanish speaker.For the past few years, she has been working in aTwo-Way bilingual Spanish/English school. The student body is composed of approximately 70% native Spanish speakers and 30% native English speakers. English speakers consist of whites, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, and Hatian-Americans. Spanish speakers are largely Puerto Rican and Dominican whith a significantly smaller population from South America. Initially, itmay appear that only Spanish and English are being taught. Maintaining the students' individual cultural/ethnic identity remains a challenge (the Spanish speakers are from as diverse a background as the English-speakers). perhaps the greatest results within this two-way language program is not only the fact that the students graduate bilingual, but that their ethnic/c!
ultural
identity expands.

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:18:42 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Sorry, Gilberto, Okay, You are right, Baha'is are rooted in soil because Baha'u'llah had Persian parents, and Persians are Arabs anyway because they are all in the Middle East. I didn't say all that. Maybe I'm just not being clear. I wasn't tryingto make some generalization about all Bahais. I was just talking aboutBahaullah. And I don't think "being hydroponic" is intended to be agood thing or a bad thing. Just a descriptive thing.I was born in the US but my family had only been living in the US fora few years when I was born. Both my parents are Afro-Cuban and so Igrew up with that as part of my background especially in terms offamily gatherings. But alot of the Cubans I grew up around were eitherMexican or Puerto !
Rican.
The Black people I grew up around weregenerally not Latino. To varying degrees I would feel some kind ofpersonal connection with the United States, Cuba, Latin America ingeneral Africa, and Spain, and now on top of that the Muslim world. Atthis point I'm "grown" and have sorted through my sense ofethnic/cultural identity but I've noticed alot of people's notions aredifferent.For example, there are Mexican-Americans living in Texas who have beenliving there so long that that say "We didn't cross the border, theborder crossed us". There are indiginous groups in Latin America whodon't even speak Spanish because they've maintained a pre-colombianheritage. Most "regular" Americans have been in the US alot longerthan my family and even the fresh-off-the-boat immigrants will oftenhave a strong sense of being from one specific place. Even if theyare mixed in terms of what country they are from, white people couldsa!
y that
they are from Europe.When I think about it, the ways in whichmany people tell the story of where they are from is just differentfrom how I think about my own identity.That's all I'm saying."My people are hydroponic"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4 [letter 6]



 We are still in the first page of this Great Book. In the Kitáb-i-Íqán itself, Bahá'u'lláh states that, "all the Scriptures, and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account," (Íqán 237) and that it can unfold "all the allusions and the implications of the utterances of the Manifestations of Holiness" (Íqán 28).Gilberto:Is this something unique to the Kitab-i-Iqan? Or don't all therevelations of God similarly condense the meanings of all the otherrevelations from God?
JS: 
My view is that this is *especially* unique to the Writings of Baha'u'llah because He has now opened the chapter of Prophet Fulfillment. The true meanings of the Bible and the Qur'an are now explained by God Himself, through Baha'u'llah.

I have to go to the weightroom to workout so I won't be around for a while.
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Kitab-i-Iqan pp 3-4 [12 months?]

I think we can spend 12 months just on this one paragraph on pages 3-4. Oceans of wealth and knowledgebehind just a few words. Surely, this is the miraculous Word of God.
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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]



If you love the light, then the lamp doesn't matter (much). Then you should be happy with the light from your lamp, and other people can be fine with the light from theirlamp. But it's all good since it's all the same light.JS:
That is a nice way to see it. No matter what lamp you use, the dark room (the heart, mind, and soul) will light up (love of God, true knowledge)regardless.

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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]



Gilberto,At 07:49 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:That's not what I"m hearing from Bahais. What I tend to hear is that the lamp doesn't matter but then they insist that people should use their lamp.I think that point is that when one accepts the Light, the Will of God, one accepts it in whatever Lamp it chooses to manifest itself. If, on the other hand, one is attached to the Lamp, then one may reject its Light, the Will of God, when it shines through a different Lamp. 
JS
In other words, if one is really in LOVE with the LIGHT and NOTthe LAMP, then one recognizes that the LIGHT was passed on from Jesus to Muhammad to the Bab to Baha'u'llah.

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Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4

my comments are embedded within Khazeh's comments, and come after "------ JS:"
*** IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH. No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayan. The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is inf!
inite and
unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4)
Khazeh: Students will immediately see that here is a Book revealed in the East in 1852 in a deeply entrenched Islamic milieu which does not start with the usual formula. In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful. Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi The Iqan starts with the exordium ** IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.** God is both the Merciful the Compassionate but here in the commencement of the Iqan Baha'u'llah makes a reference to the Name of God the [ALI, the A'LAA] the Exalted, the Most High.
Khazeh: God's attributes are many but Exalted has a certain definite resonance in making one think of the Exalted Lord [the Bab] Who had been martyred 12 years previously 9th July 1850... More about this later...2] the next utterance reveals: No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth.
------ JS: Not sure if it is clear, but the very first paragraph is actually revealed by the Bab, and Baha'u'llah is expounding on this verse of the Bab. Also, it is interested that the start of this Book is an indirect reference to the Bab Himself, who was named Ali-Muhammad. One of the better known titles that the Bab is known by is Hazrat-i A'laa - His Holiness the Most Exalted. Both of these attributes of God, Ali and A'laa are components of the Name of the Bab. The Bab, as the Manifestation of God, manifests all of God's names and all of God's attributes.
Khazeh: Attachment is the opposite of Detachment or [INQIT.AA'] in the original. Throughout religious history the Manifestations of God [the Maz.aahir e Ilaahiyya] ask people to become detached from their previous conceptions. It was the same in Islam...
*** 043.023 YUSUFALI: Just in the same way, whenever We sent a Warner before thee to any people, the wealthy ones among them said: "WE FOUND OUR FATHERS FOLLOWING A CERTAIN RELIGION, AND WE WILL CERTAINLY FOLLOW IN THEIR FOOTSTEPS." PICKTHAL: And even so We sent not a Warner before thee (Muhammad) into any township but its luxuriousones said: Lo! WE FOUND OUR FATHERS FOLLOWING A RELIGION, and we are following their footprints. SHAKIR: And thus, We did not send before you any Warner in a town, but those who led easy lives in it said: SURELY WE FOUND OUR FATHERS ON A COURSE, and surely we are followers of their footsteps.***
And in the Gospels the same theme occurs...You are familiar with that...Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, BY WHAT AUTHORITY DOEST THOU THESE THINGS? AND WHO GAVE THEE THIS AUTHORITY?
-- JS: What are some concepts that were "attachments" for the Christians when Prophet Muhammad came? They were mostly attachments related to certain CONCEPTS that they created AROUND ATTRIBUTES OF GOD.
Take a look at polytheism Hindus who have created idols. What are these idols? They are in fact representations of One of God's Attributes. They have an idol for Annapurna, God of Food (spiritual Food?), another for Balrama, God of Masculinity and Manhood, and yet another for Shiva, God the Destroyer and the Most Essential Goodness.
Now take a look at Christianity. Their deities, too, were attributes of God, that prevented them from recognizing the Prophet Muhammad and prevented them from seeing the heavenly attributes of the Book of God, the Qur'an.One of their idols was the concept o

Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4

JS: Now take a look at Christianity. [...] They were deeply entrenched in their OWN VIEW of what God's Attributes, and were bending over and praying to statues of the Cross, to images of the Resurrection of the Christ, to images of baby Jesus being born as the only Son of God. Then, their minds created paradigms around their own religions, and using logic, reject the Book of God the Qur'an.Gilberto:So don't Bahais have paradigms of their own? Ways with which to lookat the world from a certain perspective? Which make it easier to seesome things and not other things? Why would the Bahai situation be anybetter?JS:
Hi Gilberto, thanks for asking questions, and I hopethat when I disagree with you, and you disagree with me,I canemanate the ideal behavior that the Prophet Muhammad and Jesus Christ have asked from us.
In my view, only God can create a paradigm that is True. This is why, as you yourself have mentioned numerous times, there are spiritual truths found in all of the world religions. This is because all of the world religions are based on messages of the Messengers of God, and are therefore remnants of the paradigms created by God Himself. Even Hinduism and Buddhism, which are very old religions with little remaining from their Founders the Buddha and Krishna, have spiritual truths in them. The Buddha and Krishna were Messengers of God.
The problem is thatOVER TIME, the True Paradigm created by God, the only Creator, gets 'corrupted' (Qur'anic reference) by man. We have egos, and we think that we are ourselves are creators. Our minds come up with stories, ideas, and paradigms ofits own, which always turn out to be 'perversions' (Qur'anic reference) of God's Paradigm.
To fix this inherent problem, God renews His Paradigm from time to time. Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab, and now, Baha'u'llah.
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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

Gilberto:The followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (who claimed to be the Mahdi andthe Second Coming of Christ) identify themselves as Muslim. Themovement split into "Qadianis" who say he was a prophet and "Lahoris"who don't. There have been laws on the books in Pakistan declaringthem (at least the ones who say he was a prophet) to be non-Muslim.
JS:
Not sure about their beliefs or views.
Gilberto:And did not say that they were. (But I also wouldn't necessarilyexclude it, for example the Unification Church teaches that Rev. Moonwas the Second Coming and his writings are given a special status)
JS: Don't know much about the Moonies either.
In Islam, Muhammad Himself is a Prophet. Why? Because the word 'Khatam' is a reference that no other Muhammad will return until the End. Gilberto: No, that there will be no new prophets. Jesus already came before andso he isn't a new prophet. And the Mahdi isn't a prophet.
JS: But aren't all the prophet one? So Baha'u'llah in that sense, Baha'u'llah isn't a new prophet either.G: It's not clear to me how you are using "Christs". It literally means"annointed" and kings were traditionally annointed. So in some sense,many people are Christs. Even Cyrus the persian king who ended theBabylonian captivity is called "christ" in the Bible. And in someChristian circles when a person is called to preach they talk abouthaving "received an annointing" in some sense.
J: I just meant "Jesuses".
The Christian prophet does not equal the Qur'an prophet because in the Christian sense, Jesus was not a Prophet.G:
!?!? Jesus is called a prophet in the Bible though. He's just also alot more.JS:
Yes, I understand that, but since they say that Jesus is the Son of God, they say he is more than a Prophet, more than Moses, for example.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4

J: To fix this inherent problem, God renews His Paradigm from time to time. Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab, and now, Baha'u'llah.G: So in particular, from a Bahai perspective how did the Christianparadigm get perverted? Which are the main concepts which Bahais thinkChristians get wrong, and how did this process occur?
JS The paradigm was perverted by people'sinterpretations not alligned with Jesus' true intention. But people would not know what interpretations were preversions until the new Messenger clarifies it,just asMuhammad did when He came.
G: I mean the Bahai writings say that Peter was the designated successorto Jesus and Paul is spoken of in positive terms. And Bahais quotefrom much of the New Testament so it seems like the scriptures aremostly correct according to the Bahai faith. If the Bible is mostlysound, what do Christians get wrong?JS The Bible is sound but Christians interpret it incorrectly, from the Baha'i perspective.
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Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pgs. 3-4