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Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Similar statements have been made by Imam Ali. << I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them. This to me disqualifies your explanation that all religions are equally true. In one breath you are showing me verses about God, and then you try to qualify God by saying that God is accessible through all religions simultaneously. God cannot be described, and all descriptions of God are really about the Manifestations. God is irrelevant, we can't know him anyway. He doesn't exist for us. So all we have are the creations of the latest Manifestation. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511548-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day, but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but became false when Jesus Christ appeared. Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't suddenly become untrue. At most it followers might. << How is this nonsense? Religion is a manmade community. All Christians should have accepted Muhammad and all Jews Jesus. The true Jewish community is Christianity, the true Christian community is Islam, etc. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511530-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>. Alternatively we could see it has the Dpivine Nature of the Manifestation communicating with His human nature.<< I really think the religion does that. I think this is so because God changes things over time because we are changing. I cannot put on my 6th grade clothes now because they don't fit me anymore. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511527-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Alternatively we could see it as the Divine Nature of the Manifestation communicating with His human nature. << Hi Susan, I think that's what I meant. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511517-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, some would agree others would disagree. These are all personal interpretations. We don't believe in interpretation of texts. Every Bahai comes up with their own personal understanding based on the writings of Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511506-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Then, there are no definitive interpretations? << Because something was true in a previous day does not mean God doesnt change what is True His Hands cannot be tied. Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day, but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but became false when Jesus Christ appeared. Today, We have the Universal House of Justice, which perfectly determines truth and that which is correct in this day. Since Bahaullah is the Supreme Manifestation, the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice is guaranteed. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511496-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And, all the Babis did not accept Bahaullah, so their view is partly incorrect. And those that reject the Universal House of Justice are also partly incorrect. Truth is One. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511488-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I think I can answer that myself. The Shaykhis didn't all accept the Bab either, so their view is also partly incorrect. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511486-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Iskandar, Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view? Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: "haj...@yahoo.com" Sender: Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700 To: Baha'i Studies ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies" Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511483-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, certitude is something else. There is only One God. Not multiple Gods. Sent by iPhone On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Loïc ROYER wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Belief is our only certitude! (or what?!) :-) hajmog a écrit : The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes. :) And sometimes, belief turns into Certitude! Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:l...@free.fr Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511380-5368...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511381-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511438-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Honest observation: Susan & Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan and Gilberto, My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages. I think you are going around and around in circles of "superstition". What I mean by this is that you are: 1. Assuming that an unknown exists and that the unknown is measureable. 2. You are both mixin religion and science. These two are in harmony, but they cannot be mixed. Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 7:41 AM, hajmog wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Khazeh, In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge? This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of knowledge not revealed by Muhammad. Therefore, God cannot be equally accessed through Muhammad as He is through the Bab. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511418-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511420-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Khazeh: Hadith and letters revealed by the Bab
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Khazeh, In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge? This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of knowledge not revealed by Muhammad. Therefore, God cannot be equally accessed through Muhammad as He is through the Bab. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511418-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (the Sixth of six parts) on the SEAL (khaatam)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> But the Bab had dared to proclaim himself more than an Imam, and a messenger >> equal to or greater than Muhammad, with a revelation that surpassed the >> Qur'an in scope and authority. << Gilberto, When the Bab said this and when the Bab said His Bayan superceded the Quran, He is saying God changes Things, renews things, based on the state of people, not that The Bab is greater than other Prophets. If you look at nature, you see that God does this in nature too. Summer follows Winter and then Summer is renewed. Night follows day and then day is renewed. Religion is also renewed simply because that is how God operates. What do you think? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511399-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (the Sixth of six parts) on the SEAL (khaatam)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Thanks Gilberto, this Hadith is conclusive for me. Sent by iPhone On Jun 27, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Here is a hadith which you may have heard before and which has come up in our conversations before. Volume 4, Book 55, Number 626: Narrated Abu Huraira: Once while a Jew was selling something, he was offered a price that he was not pleased with. So, he said, "No, by Him Who gave Moses superiority over all human beings!" Hearing him, an Ansari man got up and slapped him on the face and said, "You say: By Him Who Gave Moses superiority over all human beings although the Prophet (Muhammad) is present amongst us!" The Jew went to the Prophet and said, "O Abu-l-Qasim! I am under the assurance and contract of security, so what right does so-and-so have to slap me?" The Prophet asked the other, "Why have you slapped". He told him the whole story. The Prophet became angry, till anger appeared on his face, and said, "Don't give superiority to any prophet amongst Allah's Prophets, for when the trumpet will be blown, everyone on the earth and in the heavens will become unconscious except those whom Allah will exempt. The trumpet will be blown for the second time and I will be the first to be resurrected to see Moses holding Allah's Throne. I will not know whether the unconsciousness which Moses received on the Day of Tur has been sufficient for him, or has he got up before me. And I do not say that there is anybody who is better than Yunus bin Matta." On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:04 PM, hajmog wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, if the Manifestations are all equal, then nothing is lost or deficient in just being Muslim. There is no need to prosyletize. << Hi Gilberto, I cannot think of an answer to this. If God is equally accessing through each of the manifestations, then there is no need to teach anyone about the appearance of a new manifestation. Therefore, I do not think the manifestations are "equal". Especially those in the cycle of fulfillment vs those in cycle of prophecy. So this is my conclusion: there is a good reason to emphasize unity of all manifestations, Minor and Major. Gilberto, do you think minor prophets are equal to Muhammad? Yes or no? Why or why not? In what way are they equal or not equal? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511393-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511395-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511396-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Why Teach?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Also, if the Manifestations are all equal, then nothing is lost or deficient in just being Muslim. There is no need to prosyletize. << I just thought of an answer. What do you think Gilberto: All the manifestations are equal. So, why teach? Because of love of God ONLY. It has nothing to do with access to God. Anyone can access God, through any religion. Anyone can access God through Islam today. So why teach? Because we love God. Since God has resent His Manifestation, who is exactly the same as and equal to all previous Manifestations, we teach about His newest Manifestation ONLY out of love. Not because of salvation. Not because people cannot access God in other ways. Not because society is doomed without the Bahai religion. Not because Peace cannot be achieved without Bahai faith. Only because we love God, we share the message that God has resent His Manifestation, who is equal to previous Manifestations. Only the OUTCOME of this attitude is World Peace, Salvation, and Recognition of God. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511394-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (the Sixth of six parts) on the SEAL (khaatam)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Also, if the Manifestations are all equal, then nothing is lost or deficient in just being Muslim. There is no need to prosyletize. << Hi Gilberto, I cannot think of an answer to this. If God is equally accessing through each of the manifestations, then there is no need to teach anyone about the appearance of a new manifestation. Therefore, I do not think the manifestations are "equal". Especially those in the cycle of fulfillment vs those in cycle of prophecy. So this is my conclusion: there is a good reason to emphasize unity of all manifestations, Minor and Major. Gilberto, do you think minor prophets are equal to Muhammad? Yes or no? Why or why not? In what way are they equal or not equal? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511393-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (the Sixth of six parts) on the SEAL (khaatam)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And in the future tense, all prophets and messengers were referring to the Bab And then the Bab was referring to Bahaullah. When I refer to Moses Jesus Muhammad, the Bab and Bahaullah, I am referring to the station of "nothingness before God", so that God can manifest himself according to the capacity of mankind. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511390-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (the Sixth of six parts) on the SEAL (khaatam)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In other words, Muhammad was referring to Himself when He spoke about God in *the present tense*. In thepast tense , Muhammad was talking about Moses, Jesus, and others when He spoke about Allah Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511389-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> the 10 commandments which are said to be written on tablets with God's own >> finger. << Gilberto, As everything else I said, these are only my opinions. I think God did not write the 10 commandments. I think God did not say anything to Muhammad. I think Muhammad was speaking to Himself. I think Moses came up with the 10 commandments himself (if he even existed). Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511388-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (the Sixth of six parts) on the SEAL (khaatam)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Also, if the Manifestations are all equal, then nothing is lost or deficient in just being Muslim. There is no need to prosyletize. << Perfect question Dear Gilberto. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511385-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes. :) And sometimes, belief turns into Certitude! Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511380-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> God decide, not us! << Excellent point. Since God must decide, Each of us has to come to our own conclusion, since none of us can claim access to God. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511377-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, sorry I don't understand what you just said. And you rephrase it? Maybe i wasn't clear. (or maybe I was too clear). So i will rephrase too: "I think Revelation itself is symbolic." I dont Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511369-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> For example, Muslims claim the Quran is revelation. That means that the words come directly from God and not from Muhammad. Muhammad isn't considered the author, he was more a passive recipient. << Bingo. I think the difference is the definition of God. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511365-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And I think this makes sense, because the technological and scientific explosion is attributed to the revelation of the Bab, Whose role was to introduce the manifestion after him. But from a historical perspective, The advances of society are apparently unrelated to the Babi revelation. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511363-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> But if you think it has been totally lost, then I think that is a more scathing indictment of the integrity of the Biblical text. << Good point I agree. But I don't think It is totally lost. It never was. "Revelation" and "inspiration" must be different levels of the same thing. So some texts are considered "Revelation" because of the high level of impact on society. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511362-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Arguments forbidden
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dearest Friend Gilberto, You are more dear to me that a Bahai friend. If you feel this discussion is an argument, please tell me and end this conversation. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511328-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I already show you. Bahaullah revealed the Quran to Muhammad through Angel Gabriel. Sent by iPhone On Jun 26, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:56 AM, haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So I don't think there is anything wrong with saying Muhammad was the only Seal of the Prophets (where khatm means last). But (to use the story you alluded to) I wouldn't say Muhammad (saaws) was better than Jonah (as). << Beautiful. Agreed. Muhammad is the Seal/Last of Prophets. (Lets assume Seal does not also mean Best, because that will confuse the issue hahaha). But Muhammad is not better than Jonah. Baha'u'llah is the Sender (Mursil) of Messengers and Revealer (Munzil) of all the Heavenly Books (including Qur'an). But Baha'u'llah is not better than Joseph or John the Baptist. The one who sends the Messengers and reveals the books is Allah so you are moving into shirk territory again. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511323-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511324-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, This is not discourteous. It is fact. Islam is veiled arrogance. Sent by iPhone On Jun 26, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv These kinds of insults are unnecessary. Please observe courtesy. On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:20 AM, hajmog wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I wouldn't insist that Islam was better than, or more "fulfulled" than, or a "greater manifestation" than any of the previous religions in their original form.<< Dear Gilberto, this is veiled arrogance. May God protect us. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511314-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511321-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511322-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Even if it is finally shown that Jesus and Muhammad Were not actual real historic figures (some scholars have argued thus) Baha'is would still say that the Made-up Bible and the Made-up Quran are the Word of God because it was God's Will. << Back to my original question. How do you know God exists. How do you know Muhammad is not a fraud. How do I know god exists. How do I Know Bahaullah is not a fraud? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511318-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> I wouldn't insist that Islam was better than, or more "fulfulled" than, or a "greater manifestation" than any of the previous religions in their original form. << Even if it is finally shown that Jesus and Muhammad Were not actual real historic figures (some scholars have argued thus) Baha'is would still say that the Made-up Bible and the Made-up Quran are the Word of God because it was God's Will. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511316-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> I wouldn't insist that Islam was better than, or more "fulfulled" than, or a "greater manifestation" than any of the previous religions in their original form.<< Dear Gilberto, this is veiled arrogance. May God protect us. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511314-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And a third explanation for why Bahais sometimes Refer to and equal the Bab and Bahaullah With past Prophets and Messengers is Because (see my wikipedia entry) The Mursil Himself gives Risalat and ad a result acts just like a Rasul, Acts in the function of a Rasul (because rasuls give risalat). Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511308-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> 2. At the end of the day, even while using this language of cycles, Bahais will still say that the Bab and Bahaullah are prophets / messengers so that still is a basic problem from an Islamic perspective. << More important than what I said in my previous message, is the concept of gradual revelation. Sometime when Bahai authors refer to the Bab and Bahaullah as rasuls or Messengers, this is because people are not yet prepared to understand that all the unknowns of God as explained in the Bible and Quran were Manifested in the Bab and then at it's fullest manifestation in Bahaullah. This is hard to understand spiritually. (now see my explanation for shirk). Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511304-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> The bottom line of what I said is that If Bahais said "Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet and messenger and there aren't anymore coming after him [fullstop]" then there wouldn't be a problem. But Bahais don't say that. << In addition to the Quranic principle not to make a distinction between those who speak God's words, another reason why Bahais do not a full stop statement is because : Bahaullah asked us to slowly unveil His True Station because if we unveiled it too quickly the soul of man would not be able to handle it or understand it. A physical analogy is that one cannot feed an infant sushi, or the infant will die. Today, the Bahai community and the world at large is like an infant. If the writings fully unveiled the station of the Bab and then the station of Bahaullah immediately, the infant body of the Bahai community and the body of the world community would spiritually die. Hidden Words 77 hints at this. So does the Story of Bahaullah posted by Khazeh. But it sounds like you are ready Gilberto. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511281-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv How is that different from saying Muhammad is the Seal and then saying God commands us in the Quran not to make any distinction between His messengers (2:136, 2:285, 3:84, 4:152) Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511279-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> The bottom line of what I said is that If Bahais said "Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet and messenger and there aren't anymore coming after him [fullstop]" then there wouldn't be a problem. But Bahais don't say that. << Question. How is that different from saying Muhammad is the Seal and then saying x Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511278-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is only One Seal of the Prophets. But the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not even allow to be preferred over a Minor Prophet! Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511268-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> The distinction between nabi and rasul is one Baha'is often make, though it is not found in our Writings. In fact, we have that passage which clearly calls Muhammad the Seal of *both* the Nabi and Rasul.<< Dear Susan, agreed. The write-up isn't as clear as it should. I am trying to show that the mursil appears just like a rasul to give risalat because the naba that the anbiya and rusul came to announce and give messages about. Also, I am saying that all messengers are prophets and vice versa before the naba, whereas after the naba there is no longer a need for nabis although the mursil still has risalat. I think it is fair to say that risalat equal kalimatullah, which are inexaustible and independent of both rusul and anbiya. Sent by iPhone On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:19 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: The distinction between nabi and rasul is one Baha'is often make, though it is not found in our Writings. In fact, we have that passage which clearly calls Muhammad the Seal of *both* the Nabi and Rasul. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511213-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sen, I disagree on a number of points... Just because it is a latter development does not mean it, finality, is a wrong view. And you are still asserting triumph of multiple manifestations over non-manifestations. Sent by iPhone On Jun 25, 2010, at 3:21 AM, Sen & Sonja wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 24 Jun 2010 at 21:02, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On the one hand, if say that Bahaullah represents this radically fuller different level of revelation beyond "prophet" then you take on a kind of triumphalist superior tone I don't think this is what is meant. Muhammad and Jesus are also called Manifestations of God, and there is no distinction between the Manifestations. As I see it, some of those who are known today as prophets were in fact more than that, they were independent Manifestations of God. Others were not, they were prophets dependent on the inspiration first generated by a Manifestation of God. So it's not a question of the superiority of Baha'u'llah over all others, but rather of the superiority of Baha'u'llah, the Bab, Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster and some others -- including many unknowns -- over a whole host of others who are prophets, or seers, or saints, apostles or messengers. if you say Bahaullah was a prophet in the same way Muhammad was a prophet you end up contradicting the Seal of the Prophets doctrine. Is the doctrine as now understood by Muslims correct? The idea that "seal" meant "last in time" is a historical development, for the word originally meant a "warrant of reliability." A seal could be put on a document to prove it was authentic, or a signet ring could be given to an emissary to indicate his authority to speak and decide for his master. As Arabic writing developed, particularly to write the Quranic text, punctuation was introduced. The various usually roundish signs used to mark the end of a verse were called the "seal" of the verse - they usually look like the impression of a signet ring - and so "seal" came to mean "ending." Obviously it did not have that meaning in the time of Muhammad, since full stops did not exist in Arabic in his time. As I recall, the doctrine as presently understood is not attested before the 3rd Islamic century. That's based on an article I read in an Islamic studies journal about 20 or 30 years ago -- I remember the library position but not the title of the Journal! -- which surveyed attestations of the word "seal" in early Islamic literature Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511147-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511159-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> the love Bahais have for Islam and the prophet and then have other Bahais argue as you do.<< Dear Gilberto, take no offense, I would ask myself the same question, how do we know Bahaullah is true and not a liar? How do I really know God exists, especially when it is said that God is beyond comprehension and inaccessible. How do I know he is inaccessible and not non-existent, the manifestatio of both of these two views are nearly identical. But anyway, I'm out of this discussion. P.s. I liked your summary about finality and your view of the positions of Bahai figures in relation to Muhammadan finality. It is a bit paradoxical, yes. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511131-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, You still are avoiding my question. How do you know God exists? How do YOU know Muhammad is not a liar, an imposter, a fake? It's a simple question. The majority of the world thinks he is a fake, and the Quran was copied from Bibles and old Arabian poetry. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-56-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Although the Bahai Faith does not have a Hadith tradition itself, I don't think there is any reason to reject hadith of Islam. I am pretty sure that Bahais we accept that in Islam Hadith plays a critical role. Without hadees there are no prayers. In fact, The Bab and Bahaullah quote from the hadees. And if we go back in time and become Muslims, we would accept Hadees. Sent by iPhone On Jun 24, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's a Shahih (authentic) Hadith. http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/ That's the best Hadith collection site I know. Dear Stephen, I think you mean Sahih. I don't doubt this hadith is considered authentic by Sunni Muslims according to their own criteria (which is different from the Shi'ites) but I think there are reasons to doubt the authenticity of even those hadiths which are considered strongest by Muslims. The ahadith literature does not get written down until two or three centuries after Muhammad and are largely judged by the strength of the chain of transmission (isnad) by which they were carried down orally. If you are going to fabricate a hadith you will fabricate a strong isnad to accompany it. Mind you, I am not in favor of the "Qur'an alone" approach favored by Rashid Khalid. I do not believe that the Qur'an can be reasonably interpreted apart from any hadiths whatsoever. What I'd personally like to see developed is a new science of hadith which attempts to reconstruct the life of the Prophet using modern techniques of historical criticism. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511064-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511069-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto good point. I think the Bab and Bahaullah use a similar principle to abrogate the whole Islamic dispensation (ie the whole Quran) and start over new. >> The basic principle is arguably in the Quran: 'None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?' (2: 106) Some apply this to previous revelations, but some scholars would apply this to parts of the Quran itself. << Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511060-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> are basically positive forces in the world and make society better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better human beings. << Dear Gilberto, I don't want to change your mind. This is a pretty picture. But pretty isn't always good. 1. To me, this is very weak and wishy washy. If I believed this, I would have to admit I don't take anything seriously at all. Why stick to Islam if it has negative influence? Be yourself! Make your own decisions! Have empathy. Stand up for the weak, silence is compliance and acceptance of the status quo which abuses the minority. 2. Also, You can say this about anything and everything. Everything can have some positive impact on society and people. My company does that to me even though it is profit-centric. The US government's human rights commission also does that. The boys scout does that. Kindergarden class does that and it is secular. Even atheism has some positive impact on society. 3. God doesn't exist and isn't going to fix anything. You gotta be the agent of change yourself. Pray for an amputee to grow a leg, see if God answers you. Pray for a dead child, see if God raises him back to life. "For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness. Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts" - Bahá'u'lláh Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510952-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan >> ones << Are you seriously honest? You respect Christianity but think their book has errors in it? Is that really respectful? What that means is that you believe in "another Christianity" that doesn't even exist (nobody follows the Christianity that you have in mind), one that had a book revealed to Jesus similar to how a book was revealed to Muhammad? Now you should think about what Bahais mean by "respecting Christianity". And you should think about what Bahais means by "revelation" and it's time-dependent qualities. Even "how" revelation place is dependent on the capacity of mankind. For example, Moses and Jesus didn't directly dictate their teachings to scribes but they were written down times afterward, and Muhammad didn't actually write anything down himself, but people wrote them down after memorizing them. But in this day, Bab and Bahaullah actually wrote their revelations themselves or directly dictated them to secretaries and then stamped them after review. The nature of "revelation" itself is time-dependent, let alone the contents of "revelation" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510935-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Gilberto, Matt; Check this out http://richarddawkins.net/ And this http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/ Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510859-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv <>. I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? <> Dear Matt, I am interested in your thoughts about atheism too. Can you please comment on that issue before we get involved in this silly exchange? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510855-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I mean atheism specifically, Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510832-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> religion is basically a positive force which makes the world a better place. On balance, the good outweighs the bad, and any bad is usually attributable (ultimately) to sinful individuals. So that would include the major and not-so-major reilgions. ~<< Wow great. So you would also include humanism (atheistic good) and manmade institutions like corporations which focus on doing good? Or not? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510828-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions, races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations. << Hi, then do you think it is fair to say that all three, the Baha'i Faith and Islam and Christianity, are not generally bad (this even implies that they are not generally good either) ? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510790-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Evolut ion from a pes? bahá' í teaching s
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > humans get the spirituality of humans by being humans. elephants > get the > spirituality of elephants by being elephants. If man does not behave like a man, he becomes an animal if not lower than animal. Similarly, if man does not acquire the spirit of faith, he is a man but he has not lived. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-463544-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Evolut ion from a pes? bahá' í teaching s
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Firestorm, can you elaborate: to begin with, random theories of evolution keep pointing to >>>everything<<< having a common ancestor. you have about 70% of the same dna as a mouse, and maybe 60% in common with a yew tree. there are serious discussions about how much of the shared dna is "junk"--which arguments can visibly terrify "intelligent design" proponents of th usa type... :-) :-) second, i would offer that if "Islam" means surrender, then "spirituality" is not something one has, it is something one does. as does the 'i in Baha'i. in 1745 linnaeus dealt with this issue--to the point that up til recently, if not now, the great apes were considered types of humans in the taxonomy he presented, purely on the basis that "soul" could not be weighed or visualised as a shape present in man, but not in the apes. humans get the spirituality of humans by being humans. elephants get the spirituality of elephants by being elephants. the T&G suggests strongly to me that "human spirituality" has an endurance factor on the personal level far (like far^4) outlasting that of apes or elephants. is that "because of" continual, hierarchical reification by foxp2 and maybe a couple of others? or the Will of God? the answer is yes. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-463542-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Evolution from apes? bahá'í teachings
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You have to look at this metaphorically. If you look at it literally, it makes no sense. Literally, humans and apes evolved from common ancestors. The concept of "soul" is a metaphor. We say humans have a "soul". "The human soul" is a metaphor for what makes humans so different from other animals. To say that "humans always had a soul" can be seen as metaphorically true, even though it is literally true that, say, one billion years ago, humans did not exist yet. I suppose you could say that, even one billion years ago, the Ideal of "Humanity" existed as a Concept, a Platonic Ideal. -- Ron, Firestorm, or others: See: 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 191-4 and 'Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace, pages 358-9 -- The word "species" used by Abdu'l-Baha is not the same definition as the "species" used by scientists or biologists. The word species is used here to explain the distinction which has always existed between "man" and "animal" despite material physical biological makeup. It does not have the current specialized biological meaning. And I used the word "man" and "animal" in quotes not to confuse with the idea that the difference between "man" and "animal" to be a physical or scientifically observable. Abdu'l-Baha is not trying to present proofs or argue against scientific findings of Darwin, rather the opposite, that he is saying that the fundamental doctrine of Bahaullah is compatible with Darwinian evolution. Abdulbaha is simply laying down a spiritual *timeless* principles that unfolded over time in a physical way. If you consider darwinian evolution from a "timeless" perspective, then you say that man was always meant to be. But Science, rightfully, never considers the "timelessness" of it because that's more of a philosophical, not a scientific, question. Here, the word "species" is a non-scientific term (Abdu'l-Baha is not a scientist) to convey the essential reality of the "Universe" that man will evolve if the environmental conditions are right, like they were right on earth after millions of years of evolutionary process for man to evolve to become what you and I are today. That's all. Its just an observation of the past based on where we are today. This is not meant to be a scientific principle, but a fundamental doctrine to convey this simple spiritual principle: that the names of God are reflecting in the mirror of existence... And since God's names seem to be more advanced today than they were 5 million years ago, (*(*(*(*Abdu'l-Baha simply says that the "species" of man was always in existence though they were not physically manifested since man had not yet evolved.*)*)*)*) Again, these statements are more about the Universe or God than they are about man or darwinian evolution. Again, these statements are more about the Universe or God than they are about man or darwinian evolution. Yet from a scientific view, God and spirit or soul are only metaphorical realities, because they cannot and will never be observed - by definition. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-463487-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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