subject:"RE\: Seal of the Prophets"

RE: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-13 Thread Sen & Sonja

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Thanks for this Brent. It looks as if they Bahai teaching is that 
Moses Jesus Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah are all Prophets, all 
Messengers, and all Manifestations: these are different names for the 
same thing, or names for different aspects of their mission. 

> All the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen
> Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names and the
> embodiments of His attributes... These Tabernacles of Holiness, these
> primal Mirrors which reflect the Light of unfading glory, are but
> expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles."  
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 113)

I've understood the "greatness of this day" theme using the picture 
of a water sculpture I once saw: water drips down into an assymetric 
balanced container, every drop the same, but ultimately one drop tips 
the container and it empties itself and starts a whole process lower 
in the sculpture. That emptying is what we've all been waiting for, 
the crowd cheers -- but the drops of water are all alike, "like two 
drops of water" as we say

Sen


--
--
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

***
Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind 
  the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved 
Master 
   with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, 
 the crowning institution in every Baha'i community.

  (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 
108)
--
-- 



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RE: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-13 Thread Brent Poirier


The Baha'i Studies Listserv

>>

The Qur'an is very emphatic at times about the equality of
all the prophets with statements like "we make no distinction between any o=
f
them", yet it also says "we have exalted some above others." The latter
phrase has been used for centuries to claim that Muhammad (pbuh) was the
"chief" or "greatest" of all the prophets who came before him. But there ar=
e
also Hadiths which have the prophet scolding some of his followers for
claiming that he was better than Moses, and he replied that he wasn't even
better than Jonah. So, the "essence" vs. "manifestation" argument is a good
way at solving the problem of "who is better than who.">>>

Baha'u'llah warns to make no distinctions. All references to the Greatness of 
Baha'u'llah are because of the Greatness of His Message -- and that is entirely 
a factor of humanity's greater receptivity and capacity at this time.  If 
humanity had been grown up 2000 years ago or 700 years ago, Jesus Christ or 
Muhammad would have given this Greatest of Revelations.

"In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation 
identified with Bahá'u'lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before 
it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and 
absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their 
authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or 
of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, 
reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their 
seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their 
respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, 
unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually 
progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as 
conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast 
evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse 
and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a 
universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the 
precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order." 
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 100)

In this passage Shoghi Effendi relates Baha'u'llah to being both "Prophet" and 
"Messenger;" the following two paragraphs follow one upon the other in The World Order of 
Baha'u'llah:

"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days," Bahá'u'lláh further states in the 
Kitáb-i-Íqán, "being thus closed in the face of all beings, He, the Source of infinite grace 
... hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the 
noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the 
world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable 
Essence... All the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without 
exception, the bearers of His names and the embodiments of His attributes... These Tabernacles of 
Holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the Light of unfading glory, are but expressions of 
Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles."
   That Bahá'u'lláh should, notwithstanding the overwhelming intensity 
of His Revelation, be regarded as essentially one of these Manifestations of 
God, never to be identified with that invisible Reality, the Essence of 
Divinity itself, is one of the major beliefs of our Faith -- a belief which 
should never be obscured and the integrity of which no one of its followers 
should allow to be compromised.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 113)


Brent






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RE: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-13 Thread Brent Poirier


The Baha'i Studies Listserv


One of the Baha'is wrote:

"...both Prophethood&  Messengership are sealed by Prophet Muhammad.And Bab and 
Baha'u'llah are Manifestations of God; that is quite different from those previous 
stations."

Shoghi Effendi states that Baha'u'llah is referred to in the Qur'an as
the third messenger: "His advent He, in that Book, in a surih said to
have been termed by Him 'the heart of the Qur'án,' had foreshadowed as
that of the 'third' Messenger, sent down to 'strengthen' the two who
preceded Him."  (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 96)


Shoghi Effendi refers to Baha'u'llah as God's "Messenger" on page 115 of 
The Promised Day is Come," and as God's "appointed Messenger for this 
day" on pages 125, 139, as well as on page 152 of Citadel of Faith; on 
pages 90, 94, 103, 119 and 153 of Messages to the Baha'i World


In The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi refers to Baha'u'llah as 
God's "greatest Messenger" (p. 4) and as God's "supreme Messenger" (p. 
112, 115)


I believe it is a harmful distinction because it introduces a kind of 
spiritual arrogance into Baha'i discourse, to say that Baha'u'llah and 
the Bab are neither Prophets nor Messengers.  I may be mistaken, but I 
urge you to reflect on this possibility.


Respectfully and with very warmest greetings

Brent






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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-12 Thread Matt Haase

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have also come to this conclusion of what the Baha'i "stance" is on this
issue from reading/studying the Baha'i Writings. I think the same can be
said of Islam. The Qur'an is very emphatic at times about the equality of
all the prophets with statements like "we make no distinction between any of
them", yet it also says "we have exalted some above others." The latter
phrase has been used for centuries to claim that Muhammad (pbuh) was the
"chief" or "greatest" of all the prophets who came before him. But there are
also Hadiths which have the prophet scolding some of his followers for
claiming that he was better than Moses, and he replied that he wasn't even
better than Jonah. So, the "essence" vs. "manifestation" argument is a good
way at solving the problem of "who is better than who."




On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Khazeh  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> Shahram Rohani [shahramroh...@yahoo.com]
> Wrote:
> .**What we, Persian language people, understand from the text of
> "Ishraaqaat"-- and I think that Ishraq Khavari has also confirmed it -- is
> that both Prophethood & Messengership are sealed by Prophet Muhammad.And Bab
> and Bahá'u'lláh are Manifestations of God; that is quite different from
> those previous stations.
> Thanks/Rohani**
>
> Shahram e aziz
> You are still trying to look for distinctions of *Essence** =Dhaat/Zaat,
> rather than differences of language, difference of stages and progressions
> and tones.
> The Prophet of God said *** "Manifold are Our relationships with God.  At
> one time, We are He Himself, and He is We Ourself. At another He is that He
> is, and We are that We are."
> This statement [lanaa ma'allah h.aalaat...] is quoted in a special and
> elegant commentary by the late Imam Khomaini copy enclosed
>  (لنا مع الله حالات هو فيها نحن ونحن هو ، وهو هو ونحن نحن)
>
> so we have to consider that there are many relationships, many languages.
> But the essence of ALL the Manifestations is one.
>
> so with this background allow me to continue offering some thoughts
>
> In the h.adith of Islam the Imams say and I quote Kulayni
>
>
> http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/165.html
>
> hadeethunaa s.a’bun mustas.ab
>
> our discourse is abstruse, exceedingly abstruse.
>
> So nearly all of the utterances of the Manifestations of God should not be
> interpreted summarily, instantly, without thought, without respect, or
> meditation.
>
> It is true, absolutely true that Baha’u’llah refers to the significance and
> station of the Prophet Muhammad and says that **by His Coming intahat
> in-nubuwwat war-risaalat* i.e. by the Prophet’s Coming Prophethood and
> Messengership came to *intihaa* to Its culmination. To its end.
>
> But here, and I promise you God forbid I am not an interpreter here it
> means that Prophethood and Messengership reached and attained its *intihaa*
> Its culmination in a Preparatory sense, in a Preliminary sense to the day of
> Bahá’u’lláh. And this is simply because that which is reached and attained
> before culminates in the next important event.
>
> The nine month gestation of the foetus culminates [YANTAHEE] in the birth
> of a baby, but childhood culminates in adolescence, and adolescence in
> adulthood etc.
>
> Essentially there is one reality that is why Baha’is do not arrogate powers
> and capabilities that are not theirs.
>
> In these references Baha’u’llah says that the *SEAL* CULMINATED in the day
> of **, “The Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the Throne
> above the exalted Seat**
>
> But remember we do not arrogate any powers
>
> It is for this reason, and this reason only, that those who have recognized
> the Light of God in this age, claim no finality for the Revelation with
> which they stand identified, nor arrogate to the Faith they have embraced
> powers and attributes intrinsically superior to, or essentially different
> from, those which have characterized any of the religious systems that
> preceded it. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) This
> is very important
>
> And in Bukhari it says
>
> **Narrated Jarir bin Abdullah:
>
> We were in the company of the Prophet on a
>
> Fourteenth night (of the lunar month), and he
>
> Looked at the (full) moon and said, "You will see
>
> Your Lord as you see this moon, and you will
>
> have no trouble in looking at Him.
>
> (Hadith, Bukhari Vol 6)
>
> The Shin of God:
>
> *Translation of Al-Qur’an 068:042:*
> “(Remember) the Day when *the Shin* shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of
> Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate (to God), but they
> (hypocrites) shall not be able to do so,”
>
> Yawma yukshafu AAan s*a*qin wayudAAawna il*a* a*l*ssujoodi fal*a* yasta*t*
> eeAAoon*a*
>
> Muhammad Taqi 
> Usmani
>  On
> the Day when the Shin will be expos

Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-11 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> 1- I am very glad that you are not furious ,like Susan, to push me to the 
> Qom[Iran] schools.

What I'm angry about Shahram, is not such much the questions you raise
but the fact you are masquerading  as a Baha'i, when it is clear to
everyone here that no matter how many books you have read you don't
really understand or accept some of our most basic Teachings. You
stage this charade and then turn around and say if we were honest we
would believe such-and-such.
If you were truly honest then you would present yourself as the Muslim
you are and ask honest questions from this position as Matt and
Gilberto do.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-11 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But Jesus and Muhammad are also considered Manifestations of God.

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 9:41 AM, shahram rohani  wrote:
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> dear Sen,
> many thanks for your reply.What we,persian language people, understand from 
> the text of "Ishraqat"-- and I think that Ishraq Khavari has also confirmed 
> it -- is that both Prophethood & Messengership are sealed by prophet 
> Muhammad.And Bab and Bahaullah are manifestations of God;that is quite 
> different from those previous stations.
> Thanks/Rohani
>
> --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Sen & Sonja  wrote:
>
> From: Sen & Sonja 
> Subject: Seal of the Prophets
> To: "shahram rohani" , "Baha'i Studies" 
> 
> Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 7:40 PM
>
> On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:58, shahram rohani wrote:
>
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > dear Sen,
> > If you refer to the persian text of "Ishraqat"  ,-"Relevations of
> > Baha'ullah" , where he talks about the Prophet of Islam, describes him
> > as "the seal of both prophets& messengers".It is P.293 of the
> > book.However,I think there should be many more references. Yours,
> > Rohani
>
> Thank you, but that was not really the question. Hajmog said:
>
> ===
> > The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both
> > Prophethood and Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would
> > not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.
> > Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and
> > acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even if it is a later
> > interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation.
>
> > Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed
> > to be distinguished from previous prophets.
> 
>
> Hajmog's idea seems to be that Muhammad is the last of the prophets
> and messengers, that that chapter in history is sealed so there will
> be no more prophets and messengers. But that does not seem to be what
> Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan: he says Muhammad is the seal of the
> prophets (and in the ishraqat, of the Messengers) but not that
> Muhammad is the last in time, rather he says that all of the prophets
> are the first and the last and the seal, because these terms do not
> refer to a sequence in time at all, and that God will always send
> prophets and messengers
>
> That's why I asked Hajmog for his source
>
> sen
>
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn       http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
>
> The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For
> the influence
> of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered
> a tree without
> fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and
> spread the
> cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny,
> but rather at
> the service you are commanded to perform by God.
>
> Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
> personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm
>
>
>
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-11 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Sen,
many thanks for your reply.What we,persian language people, understand from the 
text of "Ishraqat"-- and I think that Ishraq Khavari has also confirmed it -- 
is that both Prophethood & Messengership are sealed by prophet Muhammad.And Bab 
and Bahaullah are manifestations of God;that is quite different from those 
previous stations.
Thanks/Rohani

--- On Sat, 7/10/10, Sen & Sonja  wrote:

From: Sen & Sonja 
Subject: Seal of the Prophets
To: "shahram rohani" , "Baha'i Studies" 

Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 7:40 PM

On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:58, shahram rohani wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> dear Sen,
> If you refer to the persian text of "Ishraqat"  ,-"Relevations of
> Baha'ullah" , where he talks about the Prophet of Islam, describes him
> as "the seal of both prophets& messengers".It is P.293 of the
> book.However,I think there should be many more references. Yours,
> Rohani

Thank you, but that was not really the question. Hajmog said:

===
> The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both
> Prophethood and Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would
> not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. 
> Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and
> acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even if it is a later
> interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. 

> Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed
> to be distinguished from previous prophets.  

Hajmog's idea seems to be that Muhammad is the last of the prophets 
and messengers, that that chapter in history is sealed so there will 
be no more prophets and messengers. But that does not seem to be what 
Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan: he says Muhammad is the seal of the 
prophets (and in the ishraqat, of the Messengers) but not that 
Muhammad is the last in time, rather he says that all of the prophets 
are the first and the last and the seal, because these terms do not 
refer to a sequence in time at all, and that God will always send 
prophets and messengers

That's why I asked Hajmog for his source 

sen

--
-- 
Sen McGlinn       http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com 

The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For 
the influence 
of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered 
a tree without 
fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and 
spread the 
cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny, 
but rather at 
the service you are commanded to perform by God. 

Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm

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Antw:{Spam?} RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-09 Thread A R M MC GLINN

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Op 08/07/10, shahram rohani   schreef:> .We should accept Bab as a separate identity from Qaim.Op 08/07/10, shahram rohani   schreef:> We should accept Bab as a separate identity from Qaim.Perhaps it would be good to review what Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan about the meaning of 'return.'In paragraph 157(http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-5.html.utf8?query=return&action="" _moz_dirty="" />Baha'ullah quotes the words of Muhammad: " “Already have Apostles before me come to you with sure testimonies, and with that of which ye speak. Wherefore slew ye them? Tell me, if ye are men of truth.” (Q3:182) The point here is that the people who were denying Muhammad in the first Islamic century were the 'return' of those who had slain the Apostles before Muhammad centuries earlier -- but they were not the same historical persons.The same point is made in paragraph 159, but with the additional application to the Prophets and Messengers: "When He of Whom they had knowledge [Moses, Jesus etc] came unto them [in the form of Muhammad]"Then in paragraph 160, Baha'u'llah writes: " If thou sayest that Muh.ammad was the “return” of the Prophets of old, as is witnessed by this verse, His Companions must likewise be the “return” of the bygone Companions, even as the “return” of the former people is clearly attested by the text of the above-mentioned verses. And if thou deniest this, thou hast surely repudiated the truth of the Qur’án, the surest testimony of God unto men. In like manner, endeavour to grasp the significance of “return,” “revelation,” and “resurrection,” as witnessed in the days of the Manifestations of the divine Essence..."and then: "These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!”and this continues, in most exalted language -- which I will not seek to summarise:http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-5.html.utf8?query=return&action="" _moz_dirty="" />Nevertheless, when they enter history, each has a separate historical identity. And in this sense, what you say "Bab as a separate identity from Qaim" is an obvious truth, even though in another sense there is a Qaim and a Qayyum in every dispensation.         The question is, did the Qaim of the Islamic dispensation enter history in the third islamic century in the form of the son of the 11th imam. I don’t think so, first because the historical evidence that the 11th imam even had a son is very weak, and second because the Islamic traditions indicate that when the Qaim of the Islamic dispensation enters history, he will bring a new book, wage war, and generally cause a big upheaval. Sen 

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RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-08 Thread Khazeh

The Baha'i Studies Listserv





dear mr.Khazeh ,
Thanks for yr e-mail.It shows that it is necessary that you hv another
review of yr texts! I personally believe that investigation is always
interesting.
1- I am very glad that you are not furious ,like Susan, to push me to the
Qom[Iran] schools.
2-I am glad that you hv studied the whole books of Bab,and you agree that he
had told ,without fear or wisdom,to Mulla Hussain , about Qaim what I had
mentioned.
...Re the 2 references of the Islamic traditions (ahadith);I do not know if
you know Persian and Arabic languages or no.If you refer to the highlighted
sources,you should hv understood that they say that "Qaim wl appear in the
face of less than 40,in spite of his old age."
I think honesty is the best policy.We should accept Bab as a separate
identity from Qaim.
Thanks,Rohani 

 

Dear Mr Shahram Rohani,

The Problem seems to be to whether you dear friend can accept that the Bab
and the Qa'im could be the same.

This Problem has been superbly dealt with by the Pen of Baha'u'llah in the
Jawaahir ul Asraar for someone who was visiting the 'Atabaat (The Precincts
of the Imams) sadly sadly very sadly the place of so much blood spilling
these days especially near Kaaz.imayn the day before yesterday

and in The Sacred Iqan in Persian.

But I am glad that you responded and I am glad that you have given me this
opportunity to respond as well. I promise you that, God willing, I will have
the strength, health and patience to reply, and to have a dialogue and a
nice discussion on this list, as far as God will give us the strength both.

Please remember one thing, that whenever I compose something, or whenever I
write something, about the exalted nature of the claim and the mission of
H.az.rat-Bab, and H.az.rat -Bahaullah, it is not in a spirit of wanting
you to be ASTAGHFIRULLAH, defeated = maghloob!, and anyone being a winner
(faateh) of an argument. 

In other words this is NOT IN THE SPIRIT of mojaadalah ye ghaaleb va
maghloob ( an acrimonious debate between a putative winner and a supposed
defeated one.) Again, God forbid, that I have any intention of answering in
such a way that my answer should be decisive and **kamar-shekan** (breaking
the back), because I remember the voice of maz.luum Dr 'Ali-moraad Davudi of
this Faith, and a  great professor of philosophy, who said to us Bahai
students, that a reply that results in somebody suffering from his back
being broken (metaphorically speaking), would result in the recipient not
being able to stand straight.  and has no benefit...

 

Similarly, in discussions with Christians about the station of H.az.rat e
-Muh.ammad (peace be upon Him), we Bahais are advised to speak with great
respect, and great love about BOTH about His Holiness Christ AND His
Holiness Muhammad. So many times, so often, when discussing the station of
Christ, Muslims particularly Sunni Muslims, reject outright the station of
Christ, in His Divinity, IN His Bunuwwat (SON-SHIP)  whereas we assert both
in a special meaningful way ...and so often, so many more times often, some
Christians find great fault and great disapproval in the Holy Prophets
marriages, particularly to the daughter of Abu-bakr  Ayesha Ummul Mu'mineen
and We Bahais, speak with great energy and effort, to explain and
**rationalise** so to speak these prophetic marriages, and the concept of
Jihad, and the incident of BANU-GHURAYZ.AH   

Our greatest effort is to find points of harmony, points of reconciliation. 

 

I have mentioned this point on this list for the last 15 years. I have
repeatedly quoted the Writing of H.az.rat e Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of
Amr e Baháí that the most precious Faith of Baha'u'llah has FOUR ATTRIBUTES
at the same time, four qualities simultaneously. It is the *ESSENCE* of all
revealed Religion. It is the *PROMISE* of all Revealed Religion. It is the *
UNIFIER** of all Revealed Religion and significantly it is the
**RECONCILER** of all revealed Religion. (PDIC) a Book of Shoghi Effendi

Bahaullah, exalted be His glory, spent all of His life in prison, and in
suffering, to bring about harmony, to establish the foundations of One
truth, One Common Faith.  Repeatedly He quoted Ja'far e S.aadiq (PBUH) that
Our First is Muh.ammad, Our Last is Muh.ammad, our ALL is Muh.ammad. With
that background, I hope you will allow me to say now, that in respect of the
Exalted Bab, we have to realise, that the H.adith in referring to a future
Advent of the Qa'im is not in full agreement as to the circumstances of His
supposed rise, His birth, and the various and sundry names of His mother,
etc. Professor Said Amir Arjomand has spent all of his life in academic
study of Qaa'emiyyat and Mahdaviyyat, and I enclose one of his articles in
which he explains and sets forth all these disagreements. 

He explains in detail upon detail that there was a CRISIS and somehow
SOLUTIONS to that CRISIS had to be quickly found

 

***The Crisis of the Imamate and the

RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-08 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear mr.Khazeh Fananapazir,
Thanks for yr e-mail.It shows that it is necessary that you hv another review 
of yr texts! I personally believe that investigation is always interesting.
1- I am very glad that you are not furious ,like Susan, to push me to the 
Qom[Iran] schools.
2-I am glad that you hv studied the whole books of Bab,and you agree that he 
had told ,without fear or wisdom,to Mulla Hussain , about Qaim what I had 
mentioned.
3-The 2 references in yr writing,from Quran,i.e. 4:94 & 3:50, both talk about 
Jesus Christ, and not the Prophet of Islam.Moreover,if you just read the verse 
to the end,you wl see that he says,"...he wl confirm the orders of Torah;and wl 
allow some of those forbidden for the Jews;and would bring some more divine 
verses."
4-Re the 2 references of the Islamic traditions (ahadith);I do not know if you 
know Persian and Arabic languages or no.If you refer to the highlighted 
sources,you should hv understood that they say that "Qaim wl appear in the face 
of less than 40,in spite of his old age."
I think honesty is the best policy.We should accept Bab as a separate identity 
from Qaim.
Thanks,Rohani  

--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Khazeh  wrote:

From: Khazeh 
Subject: RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Cc: shahramroh...@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, July 3, 2010, 2:08 PM



 
Message

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



 fatabayyanoo 
wala taqooloo 
liman alqa ilaykumu 
alssalama lasta mu/minan 

 
investigate; and do not say to one who 
gives you a greeting of peace "You are not a 
believer," 
sura 
4:94 
it is vital 
that we investigate **  fatabayyanoo**, especially and 
particularly in the matter of the claims and proofs of the 

Mission and Station 
of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. 
Please I want 
to meet you some way. Yes it is true that in the early days of His Ministry, in 
the very early days the exalted Bab spoke in a language and tone and manner 
that 
“appeared to agree” with the beliefs of His people. 
   
Please 
Remember that the same applied to Jesus Christ. 
He said. *I 
have not come to ABROGATE but to fulfil* 
Matthew 
5:17  "Do not think that I 
have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I 
have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come 
true. 
Mathew 
5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the 
law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to 
fulfil. 
   
And 
similarly the Prophet of Islam revealed that His Faith was **musaddiqan** I 
have 
come as a verifier and confirmer of the Torah ** 
Wamusaddiqan lima bayna 
yadayya mina alttawrati** 
3:50 
   
So if you 
permit me you will follow that in His initial explanations and revelations 
H.az.rat e Bab [Nuqt.ih ye Uulaa] the Primal Point spoke in a language that was 
explanatory of the condition of the belief at that 
time. 
I wish all 
of us could stretch our minds to see this explanation given in the later Book 
of 
Dalaa’il e Sab’ah 
   
In the time of the First Manifestation the 
Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in 
the 
day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of 
Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the 'Point of the Bayan'; the day of 
Him Whom God shall make manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered 
by the Apostle of God, 'I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth 
resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the 
same sun (the Bab's Writings the Selections)
 
And this very important Passage (worth 
perusing a hundred times)
  
** 
CONSIDER the manifold favours 
vouchsafed by the Promised One, and the effusions of His bounty which have 
pervaded the concourse of the followers of Islam to enable them to attain unto 
salvation. Indeed observe how He Who representeth the origin of creation, He 
Who 
is the Exponent of the verse, 'I, in very truth, am God', identified Himself as 
the Gate [Bab] for the advent of the promised Qá'im, a descendant of Muhammad, 
and in His first Book enjoined the observance of the laws of the Qur'án, so 
that 
the people might not be seized with perturbation by reason of a new Book and a 
new Revelation and might regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance 
they would not turn away from the Truth and ignore the thing for which they had 
been called into being. (The Bab) the Dalaa’il. 
   
The Writings of the Shii’h Imams Themselves 
testify that the Qaa’im [The Promised Awaited One] the Muntazar was less than 
forty years of age and not more than a thousand years of 
age. 
http://www.ghadeer.org/akhlagh/sorosh_h/sorosh08.htm
  
http://nooronalanoor.ir/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10979&Itemid=14
  
These 
sites quote the most famous compilation of Bih.aar that the Lord of Amr 
[S.aah.ib al-Amr will

Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-05 Thread Hasan Elías

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Hi Khazeh and all,

I'm not following all messages, but it seems very interesting. I saw in Youtube 
an interview of a bahá'í in Egypt "explaining" to the interviewer, a muslim 
scholar and the public, the meaning of seal of prophets.

I wrote "explaining" because he can't do it, mmm strange. Anyway, what I know 
is that Nabi is differente from Rasul, while a Manifestation of God is both 
Nabi and Rasul, it seems that a secondary Prophet is only Nabi, is it correct?

P.S. Maybe you can attach your article in pdf for us?? thanks.





De: Khazeh 
Para: Baha'i Studies 
CC: shahramroh...@yahoo.com
Enviado: sáb, julio 3, 2010 1:08:11 PM
Asunto: RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications


The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan  
investigate; and do not say to one who gives you a greeting of peace "You are 
not a believer,"
sura 4:94
it is vital that we investigate ** fatabayyanoo**, especially and particularly 
in the matter of the claims and proofs of the Missionand Station of the Bab and 
Baha’u’llah.
Please I want to meet you some way. Yes it is true that in the early days of 
His Ministry, in the very early days the exalted Bab spoke in a language and 
tone and manner that “appeared to agree” with the beliefs of His people.
 
Please Remember that the same applied to Jesus Christ.
He said. *I have not come to ABROGATE but to fulfil*
Matthew 5:17  "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses 
and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to 
make their teachings come true.
Mathew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am 
not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 
And similarly the Prophet of Islam revealed that His Faith was **musaddiqan** I 
have come as a verifier and confirmer of the Torah **Wamusaddiqan lima bayna 
yadayya mina alttawrati** 3:50
 
So if you permit me you will follow that in His initial explanations and 
revelations H.az.rat e Bab [Nuqt.ih ye Uulaa] the Primal Point spoke in a 
language that was explanatory of the condition of the belief at that time.
I wish all of us could stretch our minds to see this explanation given in the 
later Book of Dalaa’il e Sab’ah
 
In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the 
day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in 
the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; 
the day of the 'Point of the Bayan'; the day of Him Whom God shall make 
manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, 
'I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of 
Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun (the Bab's 
Writings the Selections)
 
And this very important Passage (worth perusing a hundred times)
 
**CONSIDER the manifold favours vouchsafed by the Promised One, and the 
effusions of His bounty which have pervaded the concourse of the followers of 
Islam to enable them to attain unto salvation. Indeed observe how He Who 
representeth the origin of creation, He Who is the Exponent of the verse, 'I, 
in very truth, am God', identified Himself as the Gate [Bab] for the advent of 
the promised Qá'im, a descendant of Muhammad, and in His first Book enjoined 
the observance of the laws of the Qur'án, so that the people might not be 
seized with perturbation by reason of a new Book and a new Revelation and might 
regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance they would not turn away 
from the Truth and ignore the thing for which they had been called into being. 
(The Bab) the Dalaa’il.
 
The Writings of the Shii’h Imams Themselves testify that the Qaa’im [The 
Promised Awaited One] the Muntazar was less than forty years of age and not 
more than a thousand years of age.
http://www.ghadeer.org/akhlagh/sorosh_h/sorosh08.htm
 
http://nooronalanoor.ir/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10979&Itemid=14
 
These sites quote the most famous compilation of Bih.aar that the Lord of Amr 
[S.aah.ib al-Amr will not be one who has passed forty years] laysa S.aah.ib 
haadha AlAMR man jaaza arba’een
 
عن الصادق عليه السلام : ليس صاحب هذا الامر من جاز اربعين 
 
صاحب این امر، بیش از چهل سال ندارد 
 
 
And so Shahraam dear friend you and us all need to study more carefully and in 
the words of the Holy Qur’an ==>
 
 fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan 
investigate; anddo not say to one who gives you a greeting of peace  (SALAAM): 
"You are not a believer," SURA 4 VERSE 94
 
 CC
iskandar@gmail.com
Susan Maneck [sman...@gmail.com]
 


SHAHRAAM ROHAANI had written:
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed
>

RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread Khazeh

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan 

investigate; and do not say to one who gives you a greeting of peace "You are 
not a believer,"

sura 4:94

it is vital that we investigate **  fatabayyanoo**, especially and particularly 
in the matter of the claims and proofs of the Mission and Station of the Bab 
and Baha’u’llah.

Please I want to meet you some way. Yes it is true that in the early days of 
His Ministry, in the very early days the exalted Bab spoke in a language and 
tone and manner that “appeared to agree” with the beliefs of His people.

 

Please Remember that the same applied to Jesus Christ.

He said. *I have not come to ABROGATE but to fulfil*

Matthew 5:17  "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses 
and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to 
make their teachings come true.

Mathew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am 
not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

And similarly the Prophet of Islam revealed that His Faith was **musaddiqan** I 
have come as a verifier and confirmer of the Torah ** Wamusaddiqan lima bayna 
yadayya mina alttawrati** 3:50

 

So if you permit me you will follow that in His initial explanations and 
revelations H.az.rat e Bab [Nuqt.ih ye Uulaa] the Primal Point spoke in a 
language that was explanatory of the condition of the belief at that time.

I wish all of us could stretch our minds to see this explanation given in the 
later Book of Dalaa’il e Sab’ah

 

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the 
day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in 
the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; 
the day of the 'Point of the Bayan'; the day of Him Whom God shall make 
manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, 
'I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of 
Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun (the Bab's 
Writings the Selections)

 

And this very important Passage (worth perusing a hundred times)

 

** CONSIDER the manifold favours vouchsafed by the Promised One, and the 
effusions of His bounty which have pervaded the concourse of the followers of 
Islam to enable them to attain unto salvation. Indeed observe how He Who 
representeth the origin of creation, He Who is the Exponent of the verse, 'I, 
in very truth, am God', identified Himself as the Gate [Bab] for the advent of 
the promised Qá'im, a descendant of Muhammad, and in His first Book enjoined 
the observance of the laws of the Qur'án, so that the people might not be 
seized with perturbation by reason of a new Book and a new Revelation and might 
regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance they would not turn away 
from the Truth and ignore the thing for which they had been called into being. 
(The Bab) the Dalaa’il.

 

The Writings of the Shii’h Imams Themselves testify that the Qaa’im [The 
Promised Awaited One] the Muntazar was less than forty years of age and not 
more than a thousand years of age.

  
http://www.ghadeer.org/akhlagh/sorosh_h/sorosh08.htm

 

 

 
http://nooronalanoor.ir/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10979&Itemid=14

 

These sites quote the most famous compilation of Bih.aar that the Lord of Amr 
[S.aah.ib al-Amr will not be one who has passed forty years] laysa S.aah.ib 
haadha AlAMR man jaaza arba’een

 

عن الصادق عليه السلام : ليس صاحب هذا الامر من جاز اربعين 

 

صاحب این امر، بیش از چهل سال ندارد 

 

 

And so Shahraam dear friend you and us all need to study more carefully and in 
the words of the Holy Qur’an ==>

 

 fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan 

investigate; and do not say to one who gives you a greeting of peace  (SALAAM): 
"You are not a believer," SURA 4 VERSE 94

 

 CC

iskandar@gmail.com

Susan Maneck [sman...@gmail.com]
 



SHAHRAAM ROHAANI had written:
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed
> in the existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense
> to call himself as "Bab" in the first stage.

And Dr SUSAN MANECK had replied:

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:


Indeed observe how He Who representeth the origin of creation, He Who is the 
Exponent of the verse, 'I, in very truth, am God', identified Himself as the 
Gate [Bab] for the advent of the promised Qá'im, a descendant of Muhammad, and 
in His first Book enjoined the observance of the laws of the Qur'án, so that 
the people might not be seized with perturbation by reason of a new Book and a 
new Revelation and might regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance

Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You are going to have to talk to your techies at Yahoo to get this question
answered, David.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 3:24 AM, David Regal  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> I just realized I sent a message about my spam problem entitled Spam,
> probably the worst title if I wanted a response!  Here is the message again:
>
> The Yahoo account I'm using is sending a lot of posts from here to the spam
> folder.  Is there any way to change my settings so that all messages from
> this e-mail address go to my Inbox?  This would save me a bit of time.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
>
>
> __
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> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512635-7387...@list.jccc.edu
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>

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> dear Susan,
> Although I see that some persons here are full of prejudice,and do not like 
> to hv scientific discussions - and for this reason I do not like to continue 
> this debate more -;yet I lik to give >some points that may be useful for 
> people:
> -In the field of gnostic knowledge(Irfan ),there is a popular word that 
> says,"knowledge is the greatest veil -Hijab /Obstacle - to attain the 
> truth.It seems that ,in modern time, just a >certificate, could be the 
> greatest veil!

LOL. First you say we resist scientific discussions and then you say
that education (the acquisition of scientific knowledge) is a veil.

> -If you as a PHD in M.E.studies present 5 authentic islamic traditions 
> indicating Seyed Ali
> Muhammad Shirazi(Bab) as the Shiite 12th Imam,then I will provide more than 
> 50 correct traditions[ahadith],that Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari was the 12th 
> Imam,from both Shia and >Sunni sources.

ROFL! And that is what you call 'scientific knowledge, this oral
hadiths that were composed and mostly fabricated two or three hundred
years after the Prophet's passing?

Go back to Qum where you came from!

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread iskandar.hai

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Dear Shahram: 

All recent acadaemic research confirms that Hasan al-askari, your 11th Shi`ah 
imam, was not survived by a son. All those ahadeeth that you want to present 
have been shown to be fabricated, inconsistent, self-contradictory, and false. 
Read Amir-Arjomand, etc. 





Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: shahram rohani 
Sender: Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 01:52:27 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Susan,
Although I see that some persons here are full of prejudice,and do not like to 
hv scientific discussions - and for this reason I do not like to continue this 
debate more -;yet I lik to give some points that may be useful for people:
-In the field of gnostic knowledge(Irfan ),there is a popular word that 
says,"knowledge is the greatest veil -Hijab /Obstacle - to attain the truth.It 
seems that ,in modern time, just a certificate, could be the greatest veil!
-If you as a PHD in M.E.studies present 5 authentic islamic traditions 
indicating Seyed Ali 
Muhammad Shirazi(Bab) as the Shiite 12th Imam,then I will provide more than 50 
correct traditions[ahadith],that Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari was the 12th 
Imam,from both Shia and Sunni sources.
thanks/Rohani

--- On Fri, 7/2/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 4:29 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and 
> relations with >him,were simply liars?

As has already been shown, the Bab considered Himself to be the 12th Imam.

>I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not like to continue this topic 
>with you,since >you are not aware about the historical subjects.

I have a PhD in Middle East history and all the evidence I've seen
indicates that there never was a 12th Imam, part from Siyyid Ali
Muhammad Shirazi.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread iskandar.hai

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Dear Shahram: 

The Blessed Bab has Himself explained His station and claims in His Seven 
Proofs and in His Persian Bayan and He has also explained and interpreted His 
earlier Writings Himself. Susan already shared many quotes. Please go back and 
re-read her messages and the quotes. 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: shahram rohani 
Sender: Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 02:28:00 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Sen,

    When Bab himself,as a manifestation, has affirmed the living and 
existence of Hujjat b.Hasan, the 12th Imam,very clearly, to his near 
friends;can we still care other words? 
On the other hand,when we study the islamic references/collections,it is very 
obvious that there have been 12 Imama,with clear blood line .There are hundreds 
words/traditions in the compilations of both sects.
Abdul' Baha ,as you may know,usually had different views on a single 
subject,according to the conditions.I remember that he  had an affirmative 
indication about the existence  
of the Absent 12th Imam of shia community,and the position of Bab in one of his 
books.
Altogether,I have come to the knowledge and point that Master's views and 
interpretations about the words of Baha'ullah are authoritative only.I 
appreciate your sincere and valuable co-op.
Kind Regards,
Rohani




 



--- On Fri, 7/2/10, A R M MC GLINN  wrote:

From: A R M MC GLINN 
Subject: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 4:10 PM

The Baha'i Studies ListservI have no comment to make, but there is a letter 
from Abdu'l-Baha to Jenaabi-Faadel-e Shiraazi, which says in part:

"You had asked about the twelfth Imam. Know thou that this perception did not 
originally exist in the physical world. The twelfth Imam existed in the Unseen 
realm, but had no reality on the material plane. However, some of the Shiah 
elders of the time deemed it advisable, solely for the protection of the weak 
elements among the people, to portray a person existing in the Unseen realm as 
being possessed of a corporeal existence. "For the world of existence is a 
single world; it cannot be hidden, except from your eyes, and cannot be 
manifest, except to your eyes." Such was their thought, their perception, and 
their design. Ibn-e Hajar hats a verse in the Sawa'iq saying:

A cellar cannot engender a creature such
asfancy prompteth you to cal a man, O fools!
May then your feeble minds be excused, for you have
added a third to the phoenix and the ghouls. 

In any case, were one to refer to the accounts and carefully reflect upon their 
meaning, it would become clear and evidence that this magnanimous Imam, peace 
be upon him, has never existed in the physical realm. "

(translated in A Radiant Gem by Houri Falahi-Skuce)
===

Op 02/07/10, shahram rohani   schreef: The Baha'i 
Studies Listserv
We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he 
himself has mentioned the full name  and chain of names of father 
,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of hissc-riptures; 
so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the 
common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same 
as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography).
I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too.
thanks/Rohani


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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Sen,

    When Bab himself,as a manifestation, has affirmed the living and 
existence of Hujjat b.Hasan, the 12th Imam,very clearly, to his near 
friends;can we still care other words? 
On the other hand,when we study the islamic references/collections,it is very 
obvious that there have been 12 Imama,with clear blood line .There are hundreds 
words/traditions in the compilations of both sects.
Abdul' Baha ,as you may know,usually had different views on a single 
subject,according to the conditions.I remember that he  had an affirmative 
indication about the existence  
of the Absent 12th Imam of shia community,and the position of Bab in one of his 
books.
Altogether,I have come to the knowledge and point that Master's views and 
interpretations about the words of Baha'ullah are authoritative only.I 
appreciate your sincere and valuable co-op.
Kind Regards,
Rohani




 



--- On Fri, 7/2/10, A R M MC GLINN  wrote:

From: A R M MC GLINN 
Subject: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 4:10 PM

The Baha'i Studies ListservI have no comment to make, but there is a letter 
from Abdu'l-Baha to Jenaabi-Faadel-e Shiraazi, which says in part:

"You had asked about the twelfth Imam. Know thou that this perception did not 
originally exist in the physical world. The twelfth Imam existed in the Unseen 
realm, but had no reality on the material plane. However, some of the Shiah 
elders of the time deemed it advisable, solely for the protection of the weak 
elements among the people, to portray a person existing in the Unseen realm as 
being possessed of a corporeal existence. "For the world of existence is a 
single world; it cannot be hidden, except from your eyes, and cannot be 
manifest, except to your eyes." Such was their thought, their perception, and 
their design. Ibn-e Hajar hats a verse in the Sawa'iq saying:

A cellar cannot engender a creature such
asfancy prompteth you to cal a man, O fools!
May then your feeble minds be excused, for you have
added a third to the phoenix and the ghouls. 

In any case, were one to refer to the accounts and carefully reflect upon their 
meaning, it would become clear and evidence that this magnanimous Imam, peace 
be upon him, has never existed in the physical realm. "

(translated in A Radiant Gem by Houri Falahi-Skuce)
===

Op 02/07/10, shahram rohani   schreef: The Baha'i 
Studies Listserv
We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he 
himself has mentioned the full name  and chain of names of father 
,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of hissc-riptures; 
so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the 
common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same 
as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography).
I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too.
thanks/Rohani


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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Susan,
Although I see that some persons here are full of prejudice,and do not like to 
hv scientific discussions - and for this reason I do not like to continue this 
debate more -;yet I lik to give some points that may be useful for people:
-In the field of gnostic knowledge(Irfan ),there is a popular word that 
says,"knowledge is the greatest veil -Hijab /Obstacle - to attain the truth.It 
seems that ,in modern time, just a certificate, could be the greatest veil!
-If you as a PHD in M.E.studies present 5 authentic islamic traditions 
indicating Seyed Ali 
Muhammad Shirazi(Bab) as the Shiite 12th Imam,then I will provide more than 50 
correct traditions[ahadith],that Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari was the 12th 
Imam,from both Shia and Sunni sources.
thanks/Rohani

--- On Fri, 7/2/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 4:29 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and 
> relations with >him,were simply liars?

As has already been shown, the Bab considered Himself to be the 12th Imam.

>I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not like to continue this topic 
>with you,since >you are not aware about the historical subjects.

I have a PhD in Middle East history and all the evidence I've seen
indicates that there never was a 12th Imam, part from Siyyid Ali
Muhammad Shirazi.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-03 Thread David Regal

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I just realized I sent a message about my spam problem entitled Spam, probably 
the worst title if I wanted a response!  Here is the message again:
 
The Yahoo account I'm using is sending a lot of posts from here to the spam 
folder.  Is there any way to change my settings so that all messages from this 
e-mail address go to my Inbox?  This would save me a bit of time.
 
Regards,
David


  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-02 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and 
> relations with >him,were simply liars?

As has already been shown, the Bab considered Himself to be the 12th Imam.

>I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not like to continue this topic 
>with you,since >you are not aware about the historical subjects.

I have a PhD in Middle East history and all the evidence I've seen
indicates that there never was a 12th Imam, part from Siyyid Ali
Muhammad Shirazi.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-02 Thread iskandar.hai

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Well, dear Shahram, you just don't get it. Hasan al-askari was not survived by 
any son when he died. Hasan's brother J`afar attested to that fact. The whole 
story about a son who was alive past 260AH was just made up. 

Best regards, 

Iskandar 

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: shahram rohani 
Sender: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:56:00 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

--- On Fri, 7/2/10, iskandar@gmail.com  wrote:

From: iskandar....@gmail.com 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 3:24 PM

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  dear Hai,
If I had known that,then it was unnecessary to talk about it.Now you say that 
person was died before 260AH.In last posts you said other things.Itseems you 
want to show something as true by any means!I do not like it.
Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and relations 
with him,were simply liars?I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not 
like to continue this topic with you,since you are not aware about the 
historical subjects.
The speeches and texts of Bab are clear and indicative.Everyone may to the 
original texts.Even it is not necessary to refer to shortened history books.
thanks/Rohani 

Dear Shahram: 

That "person" the son of Hasan al-askari died before 260AH, if such a son was 
ever born. That's what all recent acadaemic research shows. And you know that.  

Best regards,  

Iskandar 

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From:  shahram rohani 

Sender:  Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:15:14 
-0700To: Baha'i StudiesReplyTo:  "Baha'i Studies" 

Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv

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We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he 
himself has mentioned the full name  and chain of names of father 
,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of his scriptures; 
so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the 
common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same 
as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography).
I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too.
thanks/Rohani

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies"

Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 4:47 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
> existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
> as "Bab" in the first stage.

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:

New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu

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News (o

Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-02 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

--- On Fri, 7/2/10, iskandar@gmail.com  wrote:

From: iskandar@gmail.com 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 3:24 PM

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  dear Hai,
If I had known that,then it was unnecessary to talk about it.Now you say that 
person was died before 260AH.In last posts you said other things.Itseems you 
want to show something as true by any means!I do not like it.
Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and relations 
with him,were simply liars?I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not 
like to continue this topic with you,since you are not aware about the 
historical subjects.
The speeches and texts of Bab are clear and indicative.Everyone may to the 
original texts.Even it is not necessary to refer to shortened history books.
thanks/Rohani 

Dear Shahram: 

That "person" the son of Hasan al-askari died before 260AH, if such a son was 
ever born. That's what all recent acadaemic research shows. And you know that.  

Best regards,  

Iskandar 

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From:  shahram rohani 

Sender:  Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:15:14 
-0700To: Baha'i StudiesReplyTo:  "Baha'i Studies" 

Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv

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We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he 
himself has mentioned the full name  and chain of names of father 
,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of his scriptures; 
so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the 
common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same 
as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography).
I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too.
thanks/Rohani

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies"

Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 4:47 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
> existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
> as "Bab" in the first stage.

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:

New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-02 Thread iskandar.hai

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



Dear Shahram: 

That "person" the son of Hasan al-askari died before 260AH, if such a son was 
ever born. That's what all recent acadaemic research shows. And you know that.  
 



Best regards,  

Iskandar 






Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: shahram rohani 
Sender: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:15:14 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he 
himself has mentioned the full name  and chain of names of father 
,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of his scriptures; 
so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the 
common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same 
as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography).
I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too.
thanks/Rohani

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 4:47 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
> existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
> as "Bab" in the first stage.

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:


New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu



  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-02 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he 
himself has mentioned the full name  and chain of names of father 
,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of his scriptures; 
so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the 
common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same 
as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography).
I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too.
thanks/Rohani

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 4:47 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
> existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
> as "Bab" in the first stage.

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:

New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu

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RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-01 Thread Khazeh

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
just a few quotes from

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18564016/Messianic-Concealment-and-Theophanic-Disc
losure?secret_password=
 &autodown=txt

This paper should greatly help dear SHARAAM ROHAANI as it has helped me too

 

OJBS:Online Journal of Baháí Studies © 2007 Moojan Momen

...

We may therefore see that, just as with Baha'u'llah, when the main body of
the Babis during the Baghdad period saw Baha'u'llah as an inspiring leader
but still basically within the circle of Babism, so ***during the early
years of the ministry of the Bab, the majority of the Babis probably
conceived of the Bab as a Shaykhi leader, as a gateway to the Hidden Imam
who is the true Lord of the Age.*** However, just as there were some leading
Babis who recognized, either from meeting him or reading his writings in the
Baghdad period, that Baha'u'llah's true claim and station were far higher,
so also there were undoubtedly a group of the followers of the Bab in the
early years who recognised, either from his writings or from meeting him
that his claim was much greater. We could say that just as during the
Baghdad period, the AMR still lay with the Bab and the people were not yet
called upon to believe in Baha'u'llah as the purveyor of a new religion from
God, abrogating the religion of the Bab, so from May 1844 to July 1848, the
AMR still lay with Muhammad and the generality of the people were not yet
called upon to believe in the Bab as the bearer of a new religion from God.
The period of May 1844 to July 1848, thus become a period of messianic
concealment, which ended with the theophanic disclosure occasioned by
Tahirih's proclamation at the conference of Badasht and the Bab's
declaration at his trial that he was the Mahdi and the author of a new
revelation. Continuing the parallels, we might point out that just as there
are statements in the writings of Baha'u'llah during the Baghdad period
denying that he was possessed of any amr and appearing to subordinate
himself to the authority of the Bab and the Babi hierarchy (as in the
Sahifih-yi-Shattiyyih), so there are similar statements of the Bab in these
early years. There is for example the episode in the Masjid-iVakil in
Shiraz, when his enemies had forced the Bab to issue a recantation of his
claims. There are several versions of this episode. Nabil gives the
following: The Bab, as He faced the congregation, declared: "The
condemnation of God be upon him who regards me either as a representative of
the Imam or the gate thereof. The condemnation of God be also upon whosoever
imputes to me the charge of having denied the unity of God, of having
repudiated the prophethood of Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, of having
rejected the truth of any of the messengers of old, or of having refused to
recognise the guardianship of `Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, or of any
of the imams who have succeeded him."35

 

 

The following is an alternative account of the Bab's words which occurs in a
letter written by Sayyid Husayn Katib, the Bab's amanuensis: O people!
Whoever believes in my prophethood (nubuwwat), may the curse of God be upon
him. Whoever considers that I am an appointed gate (bab-i mans.uus.) sent by
the grace of the [Hidden] Imam (upon him be peace), may the curse of God be
upon him. I am but a servant, believing in God and in his verses.And yet
another account exists from Haji Mirza Muhammad Sadiq, who was not a
believer in the Bab: O people! Know ye that I have not said anything that my
ancestor the Messenger of God did not say. That which Muhammad has made
permissible [in the Holy Law] is permissible until the Day of Resurrection
(yawm al-qiyama) and that which Muhammad has made illicit is illicit until
the Day of Resurrection. As the Immaculate [Imam] (upon him be peace) has
said: When the Qa'im arises, that is the Resurrection.37 In the Sahifih-yi
`Adliyyah and other writings from this period, the Bab also denies any new
revelation and commands the people to follow the laws of the Qur'an and the
teachings of Muhammad. The parallels between the Bab and Baha'u'llah can
even be extended to the ways in which they made their full claim known - the
manner of the theophanic disclosure. Baha'u'llah proclaimed his full station
in three ways. First privately to a small group of his followers in the
Garden of Ridvan, openly to the Babis in the early years of the Edirne
period, and then to the peoples of the world through their kings and rulers
in the late Edirne, early Akka period. The full station of the Bab was
declared to the Babis at the conference of Badasht and it was proclaimed to
the Crown Prince and leading religious figures of Tabriz at his trial. The
Bab at this time also wrote to the Shah of Iran and the Prime Minister Haji
Mirza Aqasi. There is even a parallel to the private Ridvan Garden
declaration of Baha'u'llah in the

RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-01 Thread Khazeh

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



SHAHRAAM ROHAANI had written:
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed 
> in the existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense 
> to call himself as "Bab" in the first stage.

And Dr SUSAN MANECK had replied:

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:


Indeed observe how He Who representeth the origin of creation, He Who is the
Exponent of the verse, 'I, in very truth, am God', identified Himself as the
Gate [Bab] for the advent of the promised Qá'im, a descendant of Muhammad,
and in His first Book enjoined the observance of the laws of the Qur'án, so
that the people might not be seized with perturbation by reason of a new
Book and a new Revelation and might regard His Faith as similar to their
own, perchance they would not turn away from the Truth and ignore the thing
for which they had been called into being.

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 119)

He Who hath revealed the Qur'án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining
in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise
revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is
your Qá'im,1 your Guide, your Mihdi,[1] your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as
the manifestation of God's most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of
that which God revealed unto Muhammad during twenty-three years, hath been
revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as
ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in
truth, hath power over all things. [1 One Who is guided (God Passes By, p.
58)]

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 139)



Eventually He revealed Himself to be the Promised Qa'im. As He wrote will
imprisoned in Mahku:

"He is made manifest in order to gather the fruits of the trees He hath
planted; even as the Revelation of the Qá'im [He Who ariseth], a descendant
of Muhammad -- may the blessings of God rest upon Him -- is exactly like
unto the Revelation of the Apostle of God Himself [Muhammad]. He appeareth
not, save for the purpose of gathering the fruits of Islam from the Qur'ánic
verses which He [Muhammad] hath sown in the hearts of men. The fruits of
Islam cannot be gathered except through allegiance unto Him [the Qá'im] and
by believing in Him. At the present time, however, only adverse effects have
resulted; for although He hath appeared in the midmost heart of Islam, and
all people profess it by reason of their relationship to Him [the Qá'im],
yet unjustly have they consigned Him to the Mountain of Maku, and this
notwithstanding that in the Qur'án the advent of the Day of Resurrection
hath been promised unto all by God."

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 107)

He likewise wrote regarding Himself:

PONDER likewise the Dispensation of the Apostle of God which lasted twelve
hundred and seventy years [1] till the dawn of the manifestation of the
Bayan. He directed everyone to await the advent of the Promised Qá'im. All
deeds which in the Islamic Dispensation began with Muhammad should find
their consummation through the appearance of the Qá'im. God hath made Him
manifest invested with the proof wherewith the Apostle of God was invested,
so that none of the believers in the Qur'án might entertain doubts about the
validity of His Cause, for it is set down in the Qur'án that none but God is
capable of revealing verses. During the period of 1270 years no one among
the followers of the Qur'án ever witnessed a person appearing with
conclusive proofs. Now the Ever-Living Lord hath made manifest and invested
with supreme testimony this long-awaited Promised One from a place no one
could imagine and from a person whose knowledge was deemed of no account.
His age is no more than twenty-five years, yet His glory is such as none of
the learned among the people of Islam can rival; inasmuch as man's glory
lieth in his knowledge. Behold the learned who are honoured by virtue of
their ability to understand the Holy Writings, and God hath exalted them to
such a degree that in referring to them He saith: 'None knoweth the meaning
thereof except God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge.'[2] How
strange then that this twenty-five-year-old untutored one should be singled
out to reveal His verses in so astounding a manner.

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 117)

He Who hath revealed the Qur'án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining
in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise
revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is
your Qá'im,1 your Guide, your Mihdi,[1] your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as
the manifestation of God's most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of
that which God revealed unto Muhammad during twenty-three years, hath been
revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nigh

Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-01 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


I looke up various Hadith. Some Hadith say the Seal was a mole on his back that 
testified to his prophethood.
 
Sahih Bukhari
 
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189: 

Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid: 
>My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my 
>sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and 
>prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank 
>from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood 
>between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of 
>a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.) 
> 
>Volume 4, Book 56, Number 741: 
>Narrated As- Scab bin Yazid: 
>>My aunt took me to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! My nephew is 
>>sick"' The Prophet passed his hands over my head and blessed me. Then he 
>>performed ablution and I drank the remaining water, and standing behind him. 
>>A saw the seal in between his shoulders." 
>> 
>>Volume 7, Book 70, Number 574: 
>>Narrated As-Sa'ib: 
>>>My aunt took me to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! My nephew 
>>>is- ill." The Prophet touched my head with his hand and invoked Allah to 
>>>bless me. He then performed ablution and I drank of the remaining water of 
>>>his ablution and then stood behind his back and saw "Khatam An-Nubuwwa" (The 
>>>Seal of Prophethood) between his shoulders like a button of a tent. 
>>> 
>>>Volume 8, Book 75, Number 363: 
>>>Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid: 
My aunt took me to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! My 
sister's son is sick." So he passed his hand over my head and invoked for 
Allah's blessing upon me and then performed the ablution. I drank from the 
water of his ablution and I stood behind him and looked at his Khatam (the 
seal of Prophethood) between his shoulders (and its size was) like the 
button of a tent. 
>>> 
>>>Sahih Muslim
>>> 
>>>Book 030, Number 5790: 
>>>Jabir. Samura reported: I saw the seal on his back as if it were a pigeon's 
>>>egg.
 
Book 030, Number 5792: 
As-Sa'ib b. Yazid reported: My mother's sister took me to Allah's Messenger 
(may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, here is the son of my 
sister and he is ailing. He touched my head and invoked blessings upon me. 
He then performed ablution and I drank the water left from his ablution; 
then I stood behind him and I saw the seal between his shoulders.
> 
>Book 030, Number 5793: 
>Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) 
>and ate with him bread and meat, or he said Tharid (bread soaked in soup). 
>I said to him: Did Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) seek 
>forgiveness for you? He said: Yes, and for you, and he then recited this 
>verse:" Ask forgiveness for thy sin and for the believing men and 
>believing women" (xlvii. 19). I then went after him and saw the Seal of 
>Prophethood between his shoulders on the left side of his shoulder having 
>spots on it like moles.
>> 
>>Sunan Abu Dawud
>> 
>>Book 32, Number 4071: 
>>Narrated Qurrah ibn Iyas al-Muzani: 
>>>I came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) with a company of 
>>>Muzaynah and we swore allegiance to him. The buttons of his shirt were 
>>>open. I swore allegiance to him and I put my hand inside the collar of 
>>>his shirt and felt the seal. 
>>>Urwah said: I always saw Mu'awiyah and his son opening their buttons of 
>>>the collar during winter and summer. They never closed their buttons. 
>>> 
>>> 

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Sen,
If you refer to the persian text of "Ishraqat"  ,-"Relevations of Baha'ullah" , 
where he talks about the Prophet of Islam, describes him as "the seal of both 
prophets& messengers".It is P.293 of the book.However,I think there should be 
many more references.
Yours,
Rohani

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Sen & Sonja  wrote:


>From: Sen & Sonja 
>Subject: Seal of the Prophets
>To: "Baha'i Studies" 
>Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 5:57 PM
>
>
>The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>On 28 Jun 2010 at 7:36,  wrote:
>
>> The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both
>> Prophethood and Messengership.  
>
>Could you give a source for this Hajmog??
>
>Sen
>
>
>
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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-01 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
> existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
> as "Bab" in the first stage.

Dear Shahram,

The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly:


Indeed observe how He Who representeth the origin of creation, He Who
is the Exponent of the verse, 'I, in very truth, am God', identified
Himself as the Gate [Bab] for the advent of the promised Qá'im, a
descendant of Muhammad, and in His first Book enjoined the observance
of the laws of the Qur'án, so that the people might not be seized with
perturbation by reason of a new Book and a new Revelation and might
regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance they would not
turn away from the Truth and ignore the thing for which they had been
called into being.

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 119)

He Who hath revealed the Qur'án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God,
ordaining in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath
likewise revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto
Him Who is your Qá'im,1 your Guide, your Mihdi,[1] your Lord, Him Whom
ye acclaim as the manifestation of God's most excellent titles. Verily
the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muhammad during
twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two
days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to
be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things.
[1 One Who is guided (God Passes By, p. 58)]

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 139)



Eventually He revealed Himself to be the Promised Qa'im. As He wrote
will imprisoned in Mahku:

"He is made manifest in order to gather the fruits of the trees He
hath planted; even as the Revelation of the Qá'im [He Who ariseth], a
descendant of Muhammad -- may the blessings of God rest upon Him -- is
exactly like unto the Revelation of the Apostle of God Himself
[Muhammad]. He appeareth not, save for the purpose of gathering the
fruits of Islam from the Qur'ánic verses which He [Muhammad] hath sown
in the hearts of men. The fruits of Islam cannot be gathered except
through allegiance unto Him [the Qá'im] and by believing in Him. At
the present time, however, only adverse effects have resulted; for
although He hath appeared in the midmost heart of Islam, and all
people profess it by reason of their relationship to Him [the Qá'im],
yet unjustly have they consigned Him to the Mountain of Maku, and this
notwithstanding that in the Qur'án the advent of the Day of
Resurrection hath been promised unto all by God."

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 107)

He likewise wrote regarding Himself:

PONDER likewise the Dispensation of the Apostle of God which lasted
twelve hundred and seventy years [1] till the dawn of the
manifestation of the Bayan. He directed everyone to await the advent
of the Promised Qá'im. All deeds which in the Islamic Dispensation
began with Muhammad should find their consummation through the
appearance of the Qá'im. God hath made Him manifest invested with the
proof wherewith the Apostle of God was invested, so that none of the
believers in the Qur'án might entertain doubts about the validity of
His Cause, for it is set down in the Qur'án that none but God is
capable of revealing verses. During the period of 1270 years no one
among the followers of the Qur'án ever witnessed a person appearing
with conclusive proofs. Now the Ever-Living Lord hath made manifest
and invested with supreme testimony this long-awaited Promised One
from a place no one could imagine and from a person whose knowledge
was deemed of no account. His age is no more than twenty-five years,
yet His glory is such as none of the learned among the people of Islam
can rival; inasmuch as man's glory lieth in his knowledge. Behold the
learned who are honoured by virtue of their ability to understand the
Holy Writings, and God hath exalted them to such a degree that in
referring to them He saith: 'None knoweth the meaning thereof except
God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge.'[2] How strange then
that this twenty-five-year-old untutored one should be singled out to
reveal His verses in so astounding a manner.

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 117)

He Who hath revealed the Qur'án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God,
ordaining in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath
likewise revealed the Bayan, in the manner ye have been promised, unto
Him Who is your Qá'im,1 your Guide, your Mihdi,[1] your Lord, Him Whom
ye acclaim as the manifestation of God's most excellent titles. Verily
the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muhammad during
twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two
days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to
be drawn betw

Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-01 Thread iskandar.hai

The Baha'i Studies Listserv




Dear Shahram: 



You have misread and misunderstood The Blessed Bab's comments. He, Himself, 
explains why He used the term "Bab". Go back and re-read it, dear Shahram.  



The name of that city in which you Shi`ah people assume the son of Hasan 
al-askari is alive and hidden is irrelevant. There is no such city or place or 
whatever. Do you get it? 



There never ever was any 12th imam in 260. The whole thing was made up. Hasan 
al-askari's brother J`afar told the truth and you Shi`ah people consider him a 
liar. 




Iskandar 





Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: shahram rohani 
Sender: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:20:22 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear mr.Hai,
I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
as "Bab" in the first stage.
If you  refer  to 7 proofs[DALAEL E SAB'EH ] on p.47-8,you will see that Bab,by 
quoting the tradition of "Fatima Tablet"  has affirmed the existence of Mahdi. 
It is clear that this view is confirmed by Baha'ullah too.
2- Samerra,Jamkaran,...are irrelevent.If we ask from any persian shia,you will 
find out that Samerra has been only the birth place.Jamkaran is also a place 
near Qom city.there is only a mosque -as they say- build by the order of  Imam 
Mahdi.No one is hidden there!
3-Re Jabolqa/Jabol(r)sa cities,as you said before;they are related to the 
thoughts of Shaikhiyya.You mentioned in another post that Bahais do not accept 
theexistence of these 2 cities.But I remember,that I have seen in a text that 
Master believed in existing of these 2 cities.I will try to find it.
Yours,
Rohani

--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Iskandar Hai, M.D.  wrote:

From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 8:32 AM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

No, you are mistaken about The Bab's views on the so called 12th Imam. Read His 
"Seven Proofs", for example. 
Samarra or Jamkaran, Jabolqa or Jaborsa, etc., is irrelevant. Hasan al-askari 
was not survived by any living son.

Best regards,  
Iskandar 





Sent from my iPod
On Jun 29, 2010, at 4:26 AM, shahram rohani  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All dear friends,
Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to another 
subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite sect.The 12th 
Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la[Bab] in his words has 
acknowledged it,and had represented himself as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there 
was a false view that Bab had told so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee 
had witnessed the living existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in 
front of Jenab Mulla Hussein.
Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature claiming 
that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well.
Thanks,
Rohani

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray  wrote:

From: Stephen
 Gray 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv





Then, there are no definitive interpretations? 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Hi Iskandar,


Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?


Sent by iPhone

On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM,  wrote:




The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Dear Hajir: 

The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and 
sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of 
Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the 
promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive 
physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the 
Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


From: "haj...@yahoo.com"  
Sender: 
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700
To: Baha'i Studies
ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies"  
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Stephen,


The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.


Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
dis

Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-07-01 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Sen,
If you refer to the persian text of "Ishraqat"  ,-"Relevations of Baha'ullah" , 
where he talks about the Prophet of Islam, describes him as "the seal of both 
prophets& messengers".It is P.293 of the book.However,I think there should be 
many more references.
Yours,
Rohani

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Sen & Sonja  wrote:

From: Sen & Sonja 
Subject: Seal of the Prophets
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 5:57 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 28 Jun 2010 at 7:36,  wrote:

> The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both
> Prophethood and Messengership.  

Could you give a source for this Hajmog??

Sen



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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-07-01 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear mr.Hai,
I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the 
existance  of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself 
as "Bab" in the first stage.
If you  refer  to 7 proofs[DALAEL E SAB'EH ] on p.47-8,you will see that Bab,by 
quoting the tradition of "Fatima Tablet"  has affirmed the existence of Mahdi. 
It is clear that this view is confirmed by Baha'ullah too.
2- Samerra,Jamkaran,...are irrelevent.If we ask from any persian shia,you will 
find out that Samerra has been only the birth place.Jamkaran is also a place 
near Qom city.there is only a mosque -as they say- build by the order of  Imam 
Mahdi.No one is hidden there!
3-Re Jabolqa/Jabol(r)sa cities,as you said before;they are related to the 
thoughts of Shaikhiyya.You mentioned in another post that Bahais do not accept 
theexistence of these 2 cities.But I remember,that I have seen in a text that 
Master believed in existing of these 2 cities.I will try to find it.
Yours,
Rohani

--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Iskandar Hai, M.D.  wrote:

From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 8:32 AM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

No, you are mistaken about The Bab's views on the so called 12th Imam. Read His 
"Seven Proofs", for example. 
Samarra or Jamkaran, Jabolqa or Jaborsa, etc., is irrelevant. Hasan al-askari 
was not survived by any living son.

Best regards,  
Iskandar 





Sent from my iPod
On Jun 29, 2010, at 4:26 AM, shahram rohani  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All dear friends,
Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to another 
subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite sect.The 12th 
Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la[Bab] in his words has 
acknowledged it,and had represented himself as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there 
was a false view that Bab had told so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee 
had witnessed the living existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in 
front of Jenab Mulla Hussein.
Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature claiming 
that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well.
Thanks,
Rohani

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray  wrote:

From: Stephen
 Gray 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv





Then, there are no definitive interpretations? 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Hi Iskandar,


Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?


Sent by iPhone

On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM,  wrote:




The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Dear Hajir: 

The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and 
sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of 
Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the 
promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive 
physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the 
Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


From: "haj...@yahoo.com"  
Sender: 
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700
To: Baha'i Studies
ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies"  
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Stephen,


The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.


Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
distinguished from previous prophets.  
Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.


The same principle holds for God's 
Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.


School Analogy:


Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they 
are all teachers.   



AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
teachers, thi

Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-29 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv




Yes, but note Mani who also claimed to be the Seal of the Prophets.

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
> Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius,
> Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the
> Prophets can't mean last prophet for them.

All those figures you name were before the birth of Muhammad (saaws).

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-06-29 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No, you are mistaken about The Bab's views on the so called 12th Imam.  
Read His "Seven Proofs", for example.

Samarra or Jamkaran, Jabolqa or Jaborsa, etc., is irrelevant. Hasan al- 
askari was not survived by any living son.


Best regards,

Iskandar






Sent from my iPod

On Jun 29, 2010, at 4:26 AM, shahram rohani   
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> All dear friends,
> Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to  
> another subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite  
> sect.The 12th Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la 
> [Bab] in his words has acknowledged it,and had represented himself  
> as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there was a false view that Bab had told  
> so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee had witnessed the living  
> existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in front of Jenab  
> Mulla Hussein.
> Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature  
> claiming that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well.
> Thanks,
> Rohani
>
> --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray  wrote:
>
> From: Stephen Gray 
> Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
> To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> Then, there are no definitive interpretations?
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Hi Iskandar,
>
> Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah  
> view?
>
> Sent by iPhone
>
> On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM,  wrote:
>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Hajir:
>>
>> The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced  
>> and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not  
>> accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do  
>> not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the  
>> physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in  
>> Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi  
>> would be born, just as The Bab was born.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Iskandar
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>>
>> From: "haj...@yahoo.com" 
>> Sender: 
>> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700
>> To: Baha'i Studies
>> ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies" 
>> Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
>>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>> Stephen,
>>
>> The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both  
>> Prophethood and Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy  
>> would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have  
>> started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of  
>> Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even if it is a  
>> later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong  
>> interpretation.
>>
>> Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is  
>> supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets.
>> Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is  
>> most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.   
>> doesn't mean mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't  
>> have anything to do with any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal  
>> to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal to a hearing man.  A child  
>> and an adult are one.
>>
>> The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/ 
>> Prophets/Messengers/etc.
>>
>> School Analogy:
>>
>> Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade  
>> *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders,  
>> does not mean that they are all teachers.
>>
>> AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books  
>> for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the  
>> 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher  
>> of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow  
>> not a human being.  They are still all human beings.
>>
>>
>> __
>> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:  
>> mailto:iskandar@gmail.com
>> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu
>> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu
>&g

Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-29 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Hajir,
We are talking about the eternal spiritual truth,and not the physical/material 
things.Hum?
Yours/Rohani

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, hajmog  wrote:

From: hajmog 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 1:28 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

>>. Alternatively we could see it has the Dpivine Nature of
the Manifestation communicating with His human nature.<<
I really think the religion does that.  I think this is so because God changes 
things over time because we are changing. I cannot put on my 6th grade clothes 
now because they don't fit me anymore. 

Sent by
 iPhone


  

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-29 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I agree with this view.
Thanks/Rohani

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, Susan Maneck  wrote:

From: Susan Maneck 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 1:13 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Shaykhi was true in it's own day,
> but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day,
> but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but
> became false when Jesus Christ appeared.

Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't suddenly become untrue. At most
it followers might.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications

2010-06-29 Thread shahram rohani

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
All dear friends,
Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to another 
subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite sect.The 12th 
Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la[Bab] in his words has 
acknowledged it,and had represented himself as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there 
was a false view that Bab had told so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee 
had witnessed the living existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in 
front of Jenab Mulla Hussein.
Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature claiming 
that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well.
Thanks,
Rohani

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray  wrote:

From: Stephen Gray 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM

The Baha'i Studies Listserv





Then, there are no definitive interpretations? 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Hi Iskandar,


Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?


Sent by iPhone

On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM,  wrote:




The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Dear Hajir: 

The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and 
sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of 
Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the 
promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive 
physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the 
Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 




Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


From: "haj...@yahoo.com"  
Sender: 
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700
To: Baha'i Studies
ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies"  
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Stephen,


The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.


Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
distinguished from previous prophets.  
Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.


The same principle holds for God's 
Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.


School Analogy:


Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they 
are all teachers.   



AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different 
from other teachers and somehow not a human being.  They are still all human 
beings.


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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Gilberto Simpson

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
> Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius,
> Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the
> Prophets can't mean last prophet for them.

All those figures you name were before the birth of Muhammad (saaws).

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamah_(Shi%27a_Twelver_doctrine)
That is the article with the section;
* Communicating with angels 
Part of a a series on 
Aqidah 
Five Pillars of Islam 
Shahādah · Ṣalāt
Ṣawm · Zakāh · Hajj 
Sunni Islam 
Seven articles of belief
Tawhīd
Prophets / Messengers
Holy books · Angels
The Last Judgement
Predestination · Afterlife 
Shi'a 
Twelvers
Principles
Tawhīd · ‘Adalah
Nubuwwah · Imāmah
Qiyamah
Practices
Ṣalāt · Ṣawm · Zakāh
Hajj · Khums · Jihad
Commanding what is just
Forbidding what is evil
Tawallā' · Tabarrá
Ismaili
Seven Pillars
Walāyah · Ṭawhid · Ṣalāt
Zakāh · Ṣawm · Hajj · Jihad 
Kharijites 
Sixth Pillar of Islam 
v • d • e 
Some people raise to the rank of communicating with angels. Shi'a honour Fatima 
Zahra with a nickname implying this, and some honor her with writing a book 
after conversations with the Angel Gabriel, and the Qur'an also merits the 
Virgin Mary with having talked to Angels. 





From: Susan Maneck 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:13:55 PM
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't think most Muslims regard Mani as a legitimate prophet. In
fact, historically Manicheans (zandiq) were offered no tolerance
whatsoever in the Islamic world and even subject to something close to
an Inquisition. But you are right he claimed the title of Seal of the
Prophets.

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
> Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius,
> Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the
> Prophets can't mean last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet.
> From: Susan Maneck 
> To: Baha'i Studies 
> Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:53:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
>> Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
>> Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
>> Did you know the term "Seal of the Prophets" predate Muhammad? Montanus
>> and
>> Mani both used it.
>
> Yes to all of the above.
>
>> Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin?
>
> Much more questionable.
>
>> What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel
>> Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people
>> who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people.
>
> My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept
> the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these
> inspirations carried authority.
>
>> If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada?
>
> That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept.
>
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't think most Muslims regard Mani as a legitimate prophet. In
fact, historically Manicheans (zandiq) were offered no tolerance
whatsoever in the Islamic world and even subject to something close to
an Inquisition. But you are right he claimed the title of Seal of the
Prophets.

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
> Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius,
> Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the
> Prophets can't mean last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet.
> From: Susan Maneck 
> To: Baha'i Studies 
> Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:53:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
>> Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
>> Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
>> Did you know the term "Seal of the Prophets" predate Muhammad? Montanus
>> and
>> Mani both used it.
>
> Yes to all of the above.
>
>> Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin?
>
> Much more questionable.
>
>> What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel
>> Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people
>> who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people.
>
> My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept
> the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these
> inspirations carried authority.
>
>> If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada?
>
> That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept.
>
> __
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius, Krishna, 
and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the Prophets can't mean 
last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet.

From: Susan Maneck 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:53:20 PM
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
> Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
> Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
> Did you know the term "Seal of the Prophets" predate Muhammad? Montanus and
> Mani both used it.

Yes to all of the above.

> Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin?

Much more questionable.

> What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel
> Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people
> who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people.

My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept
the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these
inspirations carried authority.

> If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada?

That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Isn't mysticism the bind between God and individuals, not religion?
>

I'm not sure the two are separable but to call religion the 'bind' is
a bit of play on words. The word religio in Latin means 'to bind.'

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
> Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
> Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
> Did you know the term "Seal of the Prophets" predate Muhammad? Montanus and
> Mani both used it.

Yes to all of the above.

> Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin?

Much more questionable.

> What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel
> Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people
> who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people.

My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept
the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these
inspirations carried authority.

> If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada?

That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think there is some validity to that argument.

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> According to A.C. Welch, Muslim interpretation of khatim an-nabiyyin as the
> "last and greatest of the prophets" is most likely based on a later
> interpretation.[3] Carl Ernst considers this phrase to mean that Muhammad's
> “imprint on history is as final as a wax seal on a letter”. Wilferd Madelung
> states that the meaning of this term is not certain.
>
> The interpretation of last is based on seal and last being synonyms in
> Arabic.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran
>
> The passage in Sura 33 that has usually been translated as "seal of the
> prophets" means, according to Luxenberg, "witness". By this reading,
> Muhammad is not the last of the prophets, but only a witness to those
> prophets who came before him.
>
>
>
> This means that by seal, he was a prophet to pagans, who unless he as a
> witness to the other prophets before him, the pagans of Arabia would have
> erroneously believed him to be the only prophet ever.
>
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> How is this nonsense?  Religion is a manmade community. All Christians
> should have accepted Muhammad and all Jews Jesus. The true Jewish community
> is Christianity, the true Christian community is Islam, etc.

There is no essential Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but religion is
not simply a manmade community. It is the bind which creates
relationship with God and one another in community.


Isn't mysticism the bind between God and individuals, not religion?


  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> How is this nonsense?  Religion is a manmade community. All Christians
> should have accepted Muhammad and all Jews Jesus. The true Jewish community
> is Christianity, the true Christian community is Islam, etc.

There is no essential Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but religion is
not simply a manmade community. It is the bind which creates
relationship with God and one another in community.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I cannot put on my 6th
> grade clothes now because they don't fit me anymore.

That doesn't make your clothes untrue.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread hajmog

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Shaykhi was true in it's own day,
but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day,
but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but
became false when Jesus Christ appeared.

Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't suddenly become untrue. At most
it followers might. <<

How is this nonsense?  Religion is a manmade community. All Christians should 
have accepted Muhammad and all Jews Jesus. The true Jewish community is 
Christianity, the true Christian community is Islam, etc.  

Sent by iPhone



  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread hajmog

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>. Alternatively we could see it has the Dpivine Nature of
the Manifestation communicating with His human nature.<<

I really think the religion does that.  I think this is so because God changes 
things over time because we are changing. I cannot put on my 6th grade clothes 
now because they don't fit me anymore. 

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Shaykhi was true in it's own day,
> but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day,
> but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but
> became false when Jesus Christ appeared.

Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't suddenly become untrue. At most
it followers might.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?

And what do you think the Shaykhi view is?

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is the basis of the topic. Can a seal be broken? An example would be the 
Seven Seals.
Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
Did you know the term "Seal of the Prophets" predate Muhammad? Montanus and 
Mani both used it.
Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin?
What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel 
Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people who 
can communicate with angels, and ordinary people.
If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada?
Etc


The Baha'i Studies Listserv

According to A.C. Welch, Muslim interpretation of khatim an-nabiyyin as the 
"last and greatest of the prophets" is most likely based on a later 
interpretation.[3] Carl Ernst considers this phrase to mean that Muhammad's 
“imprint on history is as final as a wax seal on a letter”. Wilferd Madelung 
states that the meaning of this term is not certain.

The interpretation of last is based on seal and last being synonyms in Arabic. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran

The passage in Sura 33 that has usually been translated as "seal of the 
prophets" means, according to Luxenberg, "witness". By this reading, Muhammad 
is not the last of the prophets, but only a witness to those prophets who came 
before him. 
 
This means that by seal, he was a prophet to pagans, who unless he as a witness 
to the other prophets before him, the pagans of Arabia would have erroneously 
believed him to be the only prophet ever.


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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread hajmog

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Then, there are no definitive interpretations?  <<

Because something was true in a previous day does not mean God doesnt change 
what is True His Hands cannot be tied.  Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but 
became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day, but 
became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but became 
false when Jesus Christ appeared. 

Today, We have the Universal House of Justice, which perfectly determines truth 
and that which is correct in this day. 

Since Bahaullah is the Supreme Manifestation, the infallibility of the 
Universal House of Justice is guaranteed. 

Sent by iPhone





  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Adib Masumian

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Right, plus there are also other aspects of Shaykhism which the Bab and
Baha'u'llah rejected, such as the existence of hurqalya, Jabulqa and
Jabulsa, and the notion of a Fourth Support.

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:53 AM, hajmog  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Hi, I think I can answer that myself. The Shaykhis didn't all accept the
> Bab either, so their view is also partly incorrect.
>
>
> Sent by iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
"Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather
glory in this, that he loves his kind. The earth is but one country and
mankind its citizens." -- Bahá'u'lláh

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv




Then, there are no definitive interpretations? 

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Hi Iskandar,

Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?


Sent by iPhone

On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM,  wrote:


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>Dear Hajir: 
>
>The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and 
>sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of 
>Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the 
>promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari 
>alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that 
>the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. 
>
>
>Best regards, 
>
>Iskandar 
>
>
>
>
>Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


>From: "haj...@yahoo.com"  
>Sender: 
>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700
>To: Baha'i Studies
>ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies"  
>Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets
>
>
>The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>Stephen,
>
>
>The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
>Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
>Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
>Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, 
>even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
>interpretation.
>
>
>Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
>distinguished from previous prophets.  
>Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
>athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
>mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
>any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
>to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.
>
>
>The same principle holds for God's 
>Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.
>
>
>School Analogy:
>
>
>Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
>things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that 
>they are all teachers.   
>
>
>AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
>and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
>teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow 
>different from other teachers and somehow not a human being.  They are still 
>all human beings.
>
>
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread hajmog

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
And, all the Babis did not accept Bahaullah, so their view is partly incorrect. 

And those that reject the Universal House of Justice are also partly incorrect. 

Truth is One. 


Sent by iPhone


  

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread hajmog

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi, I think I can answer that myself. The Shaykhis didn't all accept the Bab 
either, so their view is also partly incorrect. 


Sent by iPhone





  

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread hajmog

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi Iskandar,

Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?

Sent by iPhone

On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM,  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv



Dear Hajir: 

The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and 
sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of 
Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the 
promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive 
physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the 
Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 



Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

From: "haj...@yahoo.com" 
Sender: 
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700
To: Baha'i Studies
ReplyTo: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Stephen,

The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.

Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
distinguished from previous prophets.  
Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.

The same principle holds for God's 
Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.

School Analogy:

Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they 
are all teachers.  

AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different 
from other teachers and somehow not a human being.  They are still all human 
beings.


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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread iskandar.hai

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Dear Hajir: 

The Baha'i "acceptance", if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and 
sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of 
Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the 
promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive 
physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the 
Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. 


Best regards, 

Iskandar 



 
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: "haj...@yahoo.com" 
Sender: Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen,

The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.

Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
distinguished from previous prophets.  
Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.

The same principle holds for God's 
Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.

School Analogy:

Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they 
are all teachers.  

AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different 
from other teachers and somehow not a human being.  They are still all human 
beings.


  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread Stephen Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv




The Bible does have the prophecy of the Seven Seals. Even if somethings is 
sealed, there is always the
possiblity of someone breaking the seal. 

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Stephen,

The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.

Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
distinguished from previous prophets.  
Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.

The same principle holds for God's 
Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.

School Analogy:

Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they 
are all teachers.   

AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different 
from other teachers and somehow not a human being.  They are still all human 
beings.


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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2010-06-28 Thread haj...@yahoo.com

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen,

The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and 
Messengership.  Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the 
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started.  Furthermore, Baha'is accept the 
Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams.  So, even 
if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong 
interpretation.

Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be 
distinguished from previous prophets.  
Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most 
athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc.  doesn't mean 
mankind is not one.  The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with 
any of that stuff.  A blind man is equal to a seeing man.  A deaf man is equal 
to a hearing man.  A child and an adult are one.

The same principle holds for God's 
Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc.

School Analogy:

Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more 
things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they 
are all teachers.  

AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st 
and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade 
teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different 
from other teachers and somehow not a human being.  They are still all human 
beings.


  
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

2006-05-13 Thread Gilberto Simpson


On 5/13/06, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hi Gilberto,

>And he also suggests that  Muhammad really was the end of a certain
religious cycle and that the  Bab and Bahaullah were something different
than prophets or
 messengers.<

I agree.  I think Muhammad truly was the last of the nabi and rasul.


Yeah, that's about as much agreement as we can have on this point.

-G




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