Re: Holy Quran 52:4
Dear Don, Forgive me for intruding on this very learned conversation between you and Susan, but I was struck by your response and the distinction between interpretation and word play. You wrote, in order to reject one of Susan's arguments by finding a different status for the original words: "As to the Bab's use of the term - I understand this to be word play, not interpretation." Could you expand a little on this. Is word play common in the Writings? How is it motivated? I suppose 'word play' exploits the meaning that 'interpretation' tries to capture (from that meaning is not completely cut loose) but without placing itself under the norm of equivalence (holds over itself no obligation to get the same meaning). . If you have time, Regards William __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
"If Muhammad had wanted to restrict the original meaning to either the Ka'bah or the Qiblih, why didn't He say so?" Dear Don, Might one rather ask if He meant any house of worship, why would He have put it in the singular rather than the plural? "I.e. had the Ka'bah been cleansed and where was the Qiblih?" I'm not sure it had to be. It was still considered a sacred site. As for the qiblih, I'm not sure they had Salat during the Meccan period. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
For what it's worth, I think that the Frequented Fane is another term for "Collective Center," which can, depending on the context, refer to the Prophet, the Logos, a revealed religion, or a holy place or house of worship. Mark A. Foster * Portal: http://MarkFoster.net CompuServe: http://boards.M.Foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
On 3/22/04 3:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 3/21/2004 10:26:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >> If you insist that the Bab's use of the term was authoritative >> interpretation of the Qu'ran, then either Ali did not understand the >> Qu'ran or he was claiming to be the Return of Christ. >> > > Well, according to the Iqan, "Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: > "I > am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, > and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Ali." > > My point Don, is not that the Frequented Fane isn't the Qiblih, but that > *ultimately* (and not just metaphorically) the Qiblih is the Manifestation > of God. > Ah ha. And my point of departure is that 'frequented fane' w/o caps is not a reference to the Qiblih. "The Much-frequented Fane (or House) is usually understood to mean the Ka'bah, but in view of the parallelism noted [a dual meaning] it may be taken generally to mean any Temple or House of Worship dedicated to the true God. It would then include the Tabernacle of the Israelites in the wilderness, the Temple of Solomon, the Temple in which Jesus worshipped, and the Ka'bah which the Holy Prophet purified and rededicated to true worship. These would only be illustrations. Other concrete places of worship would be included . . . .The Fane is 'much-frequented' as there is a universal desire in the heart of man to worship Allah, and his sacred Temples draw large crowds of devotees." (from the commentary w/ Yusuf Ali's translation) If Muhammad had wanted to restrict the original meaning to either the Ka'bah or the Qiblih, why didn't He say so? Remember, the Ka'bah and the Qiblih were not always the same. This surah is generally believed to be early Meccan. I don't know enough history off the top of my head to know the status of either at the time this surah would have been revealed. I.e. had the Ka'bah been cleansed and where was the Qiblih? (What am I doing up this time of night?) Don C - - - - - He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
In a message dated 3/21/2004 10:26:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you insist that the Bab's use of the term was authoritative interpretation of the Qu'ran, then either Ali did not understand the Qu'ran or he was claiming to be the Return of Christ. Well, according to the Iqan, "Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Ali." My point Don, is not that the Frequented Fane isn't the Qiblih, but that *ultimately* (and not just metaphorically) the Qiblih is the Manifestation of God. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
On 3/22/04 1:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 3/21/2004 8:44:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >> As to the Bab's use of the term - I understand this to be word play, >> not interpretation. >> >> > > Dear Don, > > And what do you do about Ali's use of the term? > > warmest, Susan The same. Metaphorically, the Frequented Fane is the Center around which the Faithful circle. After the passing of the Manifestation, it applies to their designated successor. If you insist that the Bab's use of the term was authoritative interpretation of the Qu'ran, then either Ali did not understand the Qu'ran or he was claiming to be the Return of Christ. Don C - - - - - He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
In a message dated 3/21/2004 8:44:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As to the Bab's use of the term - I understand this to be word play, not interpretation. Dear Don, And what do you do about Ali's use of the term? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
On 3/21/04 6:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You forget that my original statement was that a *Baha'i* would capitalize > it, not a Muslim, not even Muhammad. I'm not convinced. I don't think that swearing by the Returning Christ fits the context. If the 'frequented fane' line were right after "The Mount", you might have a point. You would then have a progression of: the place of Revelation, the Recipient of the Revelation, and the Words of the Revelation. These would then be juxtaposed with the mundane of the last two oaths. But as it is, it seems to be that Muhammad is swearing by what was and is as a basis for talking about what will be. As to the Bab's use of the term - I understand this to be word play, not interpretation. Don C - - - - - He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
> > On 3/20/04 1:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I think Baha'is *would* capitalize Frequented Fane, for it is > > reference to the Manifestation as the Temple of God. > > I don't think so. The fact that the Bab used 'freqwuented > fane' as a metaphor for the earthly body of the Manifestation does not > mean that Muhammad did. Dear Don, You forget that my original statement was that a *Baha'i* would capitalize it, not a Muslim, not even Muhammad. The Bab, in utilizing that metaphor is very deliberately tying Himself to this particular apocalyptic surih. Now, I'm quite prepared to admit that prophecy may come to mean something else from what it meant when it was originally revealed, but at the same time we need to be clear that both the Bab and Baha'u'llah saw Themselves as the fulfillment of this surih. And apparently that isn't even unique to Them, for in the sermon which Khazeh kindly translated for us we find Ali saying: "Verily, I am the leader of the righteous, the Sacred Fane frequented by all, the upraised firmament, the fathomless ocean." But perhaps that raises the whole question as to the nature of prophecy and its fulfillment? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
On 3/20/04 1:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I think Baha'is *would* capitalize Frequented Fane, for it is > reference to the Manifestation as the Temple of God. I don't think so. These are the opening to a surah concerning the 'time of the end'. Muhammad begins by swearing a series of oaths that what He is about to say is true, and is summarized in final cited lines, "Verily, a chastisement from they Lord is imminent, And none shall put it back." As most Muslim commentators have noted, there is a hierarchy involved, from the most sacred to the mundane. "The Mount" is a reference to a place of revelation, a place where the Messenger of God is in direct contact with Him; e.g. Mount Sinai (whre Moses received the Ten Commandments), Mount Paran (where Muhammad had His first revelation) and Mount Seir (where Muslims believe Jesus went in the wilderness after His baptism by John). "the Book written On an outspread roll" is generally a reference to Scripture and the Qu'ran, however what Rodwell translates as 'Book' is noted by commentators to be a decree, a formal statement of law, i.e. the law of God. Further, it has been revealed to man, "inscribed", and is available to all who wish to know, it is on an unfurled scroll. "the frequented fane" refers to a place of devotions by the faithful. The arch-type for this is the Ka'aba in Mecca. 'fane' can be any temple or place of worship. The fact that it is frequented means that the believers are gathering there. Thus there is an inimation of not just a holy place, but of the sense of community that comes from gathering in such a place. The fact that the Bab used 'freqwuented fane' as a metaphor for the earthly body of the Manifestation does not mean that Muhammad did. 'the lofty vault' is what we in Montana might refer to as 'big sky'. The vastness of creation that reduces the individual to insignificance and evokes awe. 'the swollen sea' is the ocean at full tide, the resistless force and regularity of the natural world. 'the divine chastisement' could also be interpreted as a reference to the Manifestation, however I believe that by not capitalizing it, the reference is to the pain and suffering that will attend the Advent, not the Advent itself. I believe these interpretations are in line with most commentators. Don C - - - - - He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: Holy Quran 52:4
I believe that the Mountain, the Book, the Outspread Roll, and the Frequented Fane are all references to the appearance of the Manifestation: By the Mountain And by the Book written On an outspread roll, And by the frequented fane, And by the lofty vault, And by the swollen sea, Verily, a chastisement from thy Lord is imminent, And none shall put it back. Sometimes the "mountain" refers to the Manifestation of God. As Shoghi Effendi wrote: "P.S. 'Tur' and 'Sinai' should not be taken literally; the first is an allusion to Mt. Sinai, which in this case mans the Manifestation of God; the second, 'Sinai', represents the human heart." (Postscript in the handwriting of Shoghi Effendi appended to a letter dated May 3, 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to Dr. Muhlschlegel, Lights of Divine Guidance, Vol. 2, pp. 66-67. In the Compilation on the Hidden Words prepared by the Research Dept. of the Universal House of Justice, it is stated that this postscript by Shoghi Effendi refers to Arabic Hidden Word 63, the first sentence of which reads: "O Son of Man! The light hath shone on thee from the horizon of the sacred Mount and the spirit of enlightenment hath breathed in the Sinai of thy heart". So I believe Shoghi Effendi is identifying the "sacred Mount" (apparently "Tur" in the original, and maybe rendered as "Tur" in early translations of the Hidden Words) with the Manifestation of God; so I understand the "Mountain" in the Quranic verse you quote, to refer to the appearance of the Manifestation. In another context `Abdu'l-Baha stated: “The mountains are men of high renown, whose famous names sink into insignificance, when the dawn of the Manifestation fills the world with light. The pomp of Annas and Caiaphas is outshone by the simple glory of the Christ.” (Abdu’l-Baha, quoted in “Abdu’l-Baha” by Balyuzi, p. 499) So, when the Scriptures say that the mountains are scattered in dust, I understand it to mean that the spiritual leaders of men who turn away from the Manifestation are brought low. As far as the Frequented Fane, a "fane" is an object of pilgrimage, and here, the Manifestation is described as the Fane. The Bab wrote: “Verily, the One True God beareth Me witness that in this Day I am the true mystic Fane of God” (From an Epistle of the Báb to Muhammad Shah, Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 15) In the Persian Bayan, the Bab declared that Him Whom God Shall Manifest is the Qiblih, the point of Pilgrimage; so in this Dispensation, the Frequented Fane is Baha'u'llah. This is referred to on pp. 68 and 145 of the Most Holy Book. As far as the "swollen sea" I understand that this verse relates to it. Baha'u'llah refers to Himself as "this Cup that hath caused the seas to swell.” (Baha’u’llah, the Most Holy Book, p. 48, paragraph 80) Then the Quranic verse quoted above states "a chastisement from thy Lord is imminent", and one may wonder why the coming of the Manifestation is identified as a "chastisement". The sacred Books refer to the appearance of the Manifestation as both a mercy and a punishment. In Some Answered Questions, p. 56, in His discourse on a verse from the 30th Chapter of the Book of Ezekiel referring to the "Third Woe", the Master states "Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant... This third woe is the day of the Manifestation of Baha'u'llah, the day of God." As far as the reference to "the Book written", I personally believe this also refers to the Manifestation. There are places where the Manifestation is referred to as the "Word" and in other places as the "Book", though I can't find the latter right now. Even human beings are referred to as a "book" such as in the Seven Valleys where Baha'u'llah refers to the Quranic verse that every man shall read the book of his own soul. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Holy Quran 52:4
> Why is Mountain and Book capitalized? And what is the meaning of frequented fane in regards to this Quranic reference? I am wondering why frequented fane is not capitalized. Dear Larry, There are no caps in Arabic so the decision in this case was made by the translator. I think Baha'is *would* capitalize Frequented Fane, for it is reference to the Manifestation as the Temple of God. There is an interersting sermon by Ali which alludes to this verse, btw, which Khazeh has translated: http://bahai-library.com/?file=imam-ali_khutbat_iftikhar.html warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
