Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical > reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its > revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not > literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they > should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from > literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca. > It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then. I wouln't use the word "literal" in the context but I think I understand your argument. And there are definitely Muslims who read it in the way you suggest. What I would suggest is that you connect this to the the later verse >> [9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds >> uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are >> unbelievers. And compare it to the treatment of those with spiritual diseases according to the Bahai Faith. In the Bahai faith covenant breakers are said to have contagious spiritual diseases and are shunned. In Islam in the early generation, the polytheists were kept out of Mecca. But just as shunning covenat breakers doesn't mean you have to do extra ablutions if you accidentally bump into a covenant breaker, the Muslims don't have to renew their ablutions if they bump into a polytheist because the polytheist isn't ritually unclean. But their spiritual influence was to be decisively excluded from Mecca. In other words, in both cases there is a spiritual condition, which doesn't affect ritual purity, but it does imply a different treatment in the world. (which explains why economic factors could be mentioned). Do you understand? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511966-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Wine is najis in Islam for many schools. And in the Bahai texts tobacco is described as "very filthy" and "unclean". On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > In regards to this whole najas issue, it is not just that Baha'is > don't regard unbelievers as unclean, we also have no concept of ritual > uncleanliness in regards to certain foods as Muslims do. Of course, we > wash our food, but there are no foods, other than drugs and alcohol > that are considered haram. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511965-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In regards to this whole najas issue, it is not just that Baha'is don't regard unbelievers as unclean, we also have no concept of ritual uncleanliness in regards to certain foods as Muslims do. Of course, we wash our food, but there are no foods, other than drugs and alcohol that are considered haram. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511909-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So why should non-Baha'is care if Baha'u'llah says there will be no new prophets for atleast 1000 years? (Some Pilgrim Note say 1000 years is a minimum and it could be 6000 years to 500,000 years depending on the need of humanity.) The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is? Of course. And the statement "whoso layeth claim to a revelation direct from God" is directed to Baha'is as well. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511862-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511881-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Continuing... On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Gilberto Simpson < gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. > wrote: > > > > Dear Gilberto; > > Thanks for your message. > > You are welcome. > > > A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: > > Cleanliness and "litAAfat" (both physical purity and cleanliness and > > spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is > > certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. > > Yes, I agree. That is also highly emphasized in Islam. There is even a > hadith which says that "cleanliness is half of faith". > Yes, I was aware of that hadith. Cleanliness is definitely taught in Islam. "najas" concept is not part of Baha'i teachings and laws. > > > What is absent is the > > concept of "najas" as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. > > I understand what you are refering to. The verse which says "idolaters > are unclean". I understand that some scholars (especially) Shia may > have a different view but do you believe me when I tell you that the > Hanafi school (which is what I'm most familiar with, and which is the > largest of the four Sunni schools) reads that particular verse > spiritually? It does not say that the living body of a polytheist is > najis? It says that polythesist can even enter the Kaaba? > Oh, I certainly do believe you and understand what you say from a Hanafi point of view. I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca. It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then. > > Also, I found something interesting. Further down in this same surah, > there is a verse which talks about how unbelievers responded to the > revelation of the Quran. > > [9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds > uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are > unbelievers. > > I understand that the Kitab-I-Aqdas says: "God hath, likewise, as a > bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of "uncleanness", > whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure." and I > admit there are differences between the Muslim laws regarding what is > "clean" and "not clean" for the purposes of prayer and the Bahai > concept. > > So even though according to one quote people are no longer "impure" or > "unclean" isn't there a concept of "spiritual diseases" in the Bahai > faith where certain people are construed to have a contagious > spiritual disease and should be shunned? I understand how a different > word is used but don't you also see a little bit of similarity there > as well? > > for the next point, let me just put the context back in: > > > >> > For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) > >> > God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its > own > >> > devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is > unacceptable > >> > and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. > > >> And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that > >> no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing > >> to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, > >> qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to > >> receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and > >> ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important > >> because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today > >> (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In > >> other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations > >> are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal > >> interpretations and "clouds" in the writings would treat such a person > >> like a "lying impostor". > > > I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. > I > > am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) > > direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any > authority > > to change/abrogate any law. > > It just seems to me like you are talking about two separate things, > and at one point the bar is one place and now you moved it elsewhere. > First you started talking about God going into retirement and > withholding His grace and bounty on humanity. And I hope it is clear > that is nowhere near the Islamic position. There are many different > ways which according to Islam, God continues to cause special > individuals to appear to provide guidance, to revive religious truth, > and to man
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is? Of course. And the statement "whoso layeth claim to a revelation direct from God" is directed to Baha'is as well. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511862-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is? The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What about the restoration of an existing religion? According to Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation anyone claiming authority over the House of Justice would be laying claim to an Amr in that sense: "The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor. The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected." (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511836-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511840-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > What about the restoration of an existing religion? According to Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation anyone claiming authority over the House of Justice would be laying claim to an Amr in that sense: "The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor. The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected." (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511836-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan: Correct. That is my understanding as well. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck Sender: Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:23:40 To: Baha'i Studies Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that if > someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an > unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine > with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. I should add that the original Arabic stays that anyone claiming to have an Amr from God prior to the passing of a thousand years is a lying impostor. My interpretation is not that it is someone who claims to have received a vision, a visit by an angel or anything else. Rather we are talking about someone who claims to have a new Cause, i.e. a new religion from God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511788-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What about the restoration of an existing religion? The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that if > someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an > unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine > with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. I should add that the original Arabic stays that anyone claiming to have an Amr from God prior to the passing of a thousand years is a lying impostor. My interpretation is not that it is someone who claims to have received a vision, a visit by an angel or anything else. Rather we are talking about someone who claims to have a new Cause, i.e. a new religion from God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511788-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511793-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that if > someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an > unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine > with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. I should add that the original Arabic stays that anyone claiming to have an Amr from God prior to the passing of a thousand years is a lying impostor. My interpretation is not that it is someone who claims to have received a vision, a visit by an angel or anything else. Rather we are talking about someone who claims to have a new Cause, i.e. a new religion from God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511788-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv A revelation direct from God? Can there be a revelation indirect from God? I guess we could give Joseph Smith as an example. He could communicate with angels and he had the spiritual ability to translate the Book of Mormon. The prophet was Moroni from the fourth/fifth century CE, so he wasn't the prophet but a seer-translator-angel communicator. Emanuel Swedenborg is another example. He could communicate with angels, have visions of heaven and hell, find the inner meaning of the Bible, etc. Mary Bakker Eddy is another example. She could find the inner meaning of the Bible, heal people, teach others to do likewise, etc. I would say they received indirect revelations on par with Fatima. The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and "litAAfat" (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. What is absent is the concept of "najas" as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. As I am a practicing Baha'i believer and you are a practicing Muslim, you obviously think that the Islamic law and teaching is better than the Baha'i teachings and law. Or, do you believe that the Baha'i law is better? I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. Only God Himself who first gave the law can do that; and He alone can change and abrogate it. This is the Baha'i position, as I understand it. The Baha'i understanding of "the Seal of the Prophets" is different from the *current* muslim understanding of the concept. Recent research has shown that early Muslims had a very different understanding of the issue. Baha'is view and interpret the Seal of the Prophets with different explanations and from different angles and viewpoints. Why is that confusing? There is a diversity of readings and interpretations. Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. In the process, by the way, Baha'is do not expect that claimant to perform magical acts such as levitating instantaneously from Mecca to Jerusalem, etc. These are theatrics and they are way beneath the station and claim of a person who claims to be the Divine Educator and Physician for the ills of humanity. At the end of the day, I should hear her/him speak to my heart with the voice and authority of God (just as I hear the voice of God when I read the Quran or the Kitab-i-Aqdas) before I believe in Her/Him. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > >> As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed >> comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least >> some of the points I made. > >I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. >That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To >just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith >require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. >Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean >clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have >suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both >Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding >menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that >both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but >similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out >it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So >instead of saying "Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground" it >feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess >in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). > >I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain >and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of >understanding the Bible. > > >> >> However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the >> issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i >> "metaphysical obfuscation" very unhelpful and insulting. > >No insult was intended. > > >> He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, >> coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of >> all rel
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and "litAAfat" (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. What is absent is the concept of "najas" as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. As I am a practicing Baha'i believer and you are a practicing Muslim, you obviously think that the Islamic law and teaching is better than the Baha'i teachings and law. Or, do you believe that the Baha'i law is better? I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. Only God Himself who first gave the law can do that; and He alone can change and abrogate it. This is the Baha'i position, as I understand it. The Baha'i understanding of "the Seal of the Prophets" is different from the *current* muslim understanding of the concept. Recent research has shown that early Muslims had a very different understanding of the issue. Baha'is view and interpret the Seal of the Prophets with different explanations and from different angles and viewpoints. Why is that confusing? There is a diversity of readings and interpretations. Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. In the process, by the way, Baha'is do not expect that claimant to perform magical acts such as levitating instantaneously from Mecca to Jerusalem, etc. These are theatrics and they are way beneath the station and claim of a person who claims to be the Divine Educator and Physician for the ills of humanity. At the end of the day, I should hear her/him speak to my heart with the voice and authority of God (just as I hear the voice of God when I read the Quran or the Kitab-i-Aqdas) before I believe in Her/Him. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gilberto Simpson < gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, wrote: > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed > comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least > some of the points I made. > > I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. > That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To > just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith > require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. > Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean > clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have > suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both > Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding > menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that > both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but > similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out > it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So > instead of saying "Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground" it > feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess > in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). > > I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain > and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of > understanding the Bible. > > > > > However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the > issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i > "metaphysical obfuscation" very unhelpful and insulting. > > No insult was intended. > > > He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very > lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and > thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. > > I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at > the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of > the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. > > And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is > that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very > thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does > not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the > last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would > say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of > fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed > comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least > some of the points I made. I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So instead of saying "Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground" it feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of understanding the Bible. > > However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the > issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i > "metaphysical obfuscation" very unhelpful and insulting. No insult was intended. > He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, > coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of > all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger and manifestation almost interchangeably. especially in the light of 4) How the Writings suggest that all the MAnifestations partake in the station of Seal of the Prophets. > > For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God > decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices > forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far > from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. > > And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal interpretations and "clouds" in the writings would treat such a person like a "lying impostor". All I really mean to say is that you are overstating the Muslim position on this point. In any case, I have been thinking of resending my request to leave the list. I certainly don't feel welcome. I think we've said what has been on our minds. I don't see your views or my views growing or changing much. So I should focus my time on other pursuits. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511576-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. Gilberto either didn't understand or misunderstood my comments. But I'm reluctant to try to clarify and reclarify again and again. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i "metaphysical obfuscation" very unhelpful and insulting. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. This is a discussion list and nobody is proselytizing Gilberto or anyone else because proselytizing is prohibited in the Baha'i Faith. Gilberto is here on his own accord and he can leave anytime he wants. (Actually, a few years ago, he was asked to leave this list and Susan told him that he was no longer welcome here). At any rate, nobody is proselytizing him here. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson Sender: Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 04:06:42 To: Baha'i Studies Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > > Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that > there definitely is a major difference about this "najas" issue in that > whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are "najas", Yes, except that most Muslims don't read the texts the way you do. >this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Yes, except for how there are ritual ablutions before prayer. Commandments to pray in unsullied clothes on a clean surface, preferably after bathing in rosewater. Different rules for menstruating women. And except for warnings that certain individuals have spiritual diseases and shunning covenant breakers. >Then we moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more >fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to >remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? I honestly don't know where you are coming from. What did I say to make you think I think you are Muslim? > Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? Yes, I often do that. MY sense is that Bahais want to assert the differences > Heck, there are very real and very major and irreconcilable differences > between Shi`ah and Sunni. Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. I think you are radically exaggerating the differences and there is still a large amount of common ground. But still I'm not sure what you are trying to say. > No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our 19-day > feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a non-Baha'i > want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I honestly and without being facetious I think you specifically would be a gracious host if I just came and showed up. But based on the numerous letters from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ which were in the link I gave it is abundantly that the Feasts are meant to be exclusively for Bahais. It's not just that it is boring but the Bahais would need to have a safe space to discuss all sorts of issues which they don't necessarily want aired in front of outsiders. And like I said earlier that is a valid need which I respect. But it IS exclusive. Also in terms of Mecca, even though entry by non-Muslim is NOT a religious question of ritual purity, in the US on multiple occasions you have pundits and politicians "joking" about nuking the Kaaba. I'm sure the same has been said elsewhere. And even under the status quo a few decades ago there was a siege of the Kaaba during Hajj and if you go back several centuries the Black Stone was even stolen for a time. It's not a tourist attraction like Disneyland. Why should everybody be able to go? >I cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you >really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it > for you. I'd love to go on pilgrimage to Mecca
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
the Prophet and the interpreter of the Quran. > > I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I > think I'm going to stop posting any more comments. > I'm not sure what your point is. Zaydis are group of Shiah (prominent in Yemen) who actually don't believe what you assert. They believe that Ali should have been the first Imam but they accept that the first 3 caliphs were sincerely mistaken and didn't conspire against anyone. And I'm sure I'm mentioned before that even in Sunni sources, Sunnis are supposed to love Ahl al-Bayt. And especially according to a Sunni Sufi framework, the 12 imams were still among the companions and the awliya and some reached the station of Insan al-Kamil and the Qutbs of their time. So again, I'm not sure what you are saying when in one breath you say you want to dwell on commonalities but in another try to talk about divisions between Muslims. What are you trying to say/accomplish? > > Best regards, > > Iskandar > > > > > > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -Original Message- > From: Gilberto Simpson > Sender: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:56:44 > To: Baha'i Studies > Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" > Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> >> Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. >> >> Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that >> Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. >> It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's >> paper. > > I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know > what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is > that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word "last". > And it isn't what Muslims mean by "last". And when I'm feeling > uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think > it is a sincerely believed paradox. > >> Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, >> Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that >> He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus >> is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was >> a lamp from which the unique light of "haqiqat muhammadiyyah" was shining. >> In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, >> Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. > > I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos > is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of > Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But > at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are > radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most > obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments). > > >> Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the >> consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, >> then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. > > http://bahai-library.com/compilations/feast.html > > The above link is a compilation of different directives about the > Feast from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ and all of section 6 is about > restrictions on Feast attendance. It is pretty clear that non-Bahais > aren't supposed to be invited and their presence at Feasts is to be > avoided. If they are there anyway, the administrative portion of the > meeting is to be postponed. > > Now, I actually don't see anything wrong with that. I totally > understand that a community might want to have opportunities to > discuss issues among themselves without prying eyes. But don't pee on > my leg and tell me its raining. > It is obviously a form of exclusion. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511021-20805...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-s
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv "Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences?" That was the whole point that I was trying to make to you, as well. On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > > Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that > there definitely is a major difference about this "najas" issue in that > whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are "najas", > this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Then we > moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more > fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to > remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? You think that > I had forgotten that? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common > ground than emphasize the differences? Of course the Baha'i Faith has laws > and commandments that are different from Islam. Heck, there are very real > and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni. > Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. > > No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our > 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a > non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I > cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you > really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love > to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't > permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling > them otherwise. Do I begrudge or hate Muslims for not letting me visit the > Kaabah? No, of course not. > > > Regarding the issue of Seal of the Prophets, my conclusion is that > Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of this whole issue of finality is > the most profound understanding of the term. We Baha'is certainly do believe > in Islam and in the Quran in a manner that is totally unacceptable by a > Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian person. Of course we have a different > hermeneutic, and a different reading of the Quran. There is a major and > irreconcilable difference between the Shi`ah understanding of "people in > authority" in Quran 4:59 and the Sunni understanding of the verse. For a > Shi`ah the first 3 Caliphs were simply illegitimate and usurpers of `Ali's > right to be the infallible successor to the Prophet and the interpreter of > the Quran. > > I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I > think I'm going to stop posting any more comments. > > > Best regards, > > Iskandar > > > > > > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -Original Message- > From: Gilberto Simpson > Sender: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 > 12:56:44 > To: Baha'i Studies > Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" > Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, wrote: > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > > > > Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. > > > > Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that > Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. > It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's > paper. > > I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know > what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is > that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word "last". > And it isn't what Muslims mean by "last". And when I'm feeling > uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think > it is a sincerely believed paradox. > > > Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that > Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was > not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness > of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's > because He was a lamp from which the unique light of "haqiqat muhammadiyyah" > was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, > Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. > > I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos > i
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that there definitely is a major difference about this "najas" issue in that whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are "najas", this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Then we moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? You think that I had forgotten that? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? Of course the Baha'i Faith has laws and commandments that are different from Islam. Heck, there are very real and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni. Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling them otherwise. Do I begrudge or hate Muslims for not letting me visit the Kaabah? No, of course not. Regarding the issue of Seal of the Prophets, my conclusion is that Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of this whole issue of finality is the most profound understanding of the term. We Baha'is certainly do believe in Islam and in the Quran in a manner that is totally unacceptable by a Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian person. Of course we have a different hermeneutic, and a different reading of the Quran. There is a major and irreconcilable difference between the Shi`ah understanding of "people in authority" in Quran 4:59 and the Sunni understanding of the verse. For a Shi`ah the first 3 Caliphs were simply illegitimate and usurpers of `Ali's right to be the infallible successor to the Prophet and the interpreter of the Quran. I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I think I'm going to stop posting any more comments. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson Sender: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:56:44 To: Baha'i Studies Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. > > Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that > Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. > It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's paper. I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word "last". And it isn't what Muslims mean by "last". And when I'm feeling uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think it is a sincerely believed paradox. > Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, > Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that > He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus > is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a > lamp from which the unique light of "haqiqat muhammadiyyah" was shining. In > other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, > Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments). > Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the > consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then > the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. http://bahai-library.com/compilations/feast.html The above
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There are definitely historical > examples of Bahai missionaries using hikmat to pretend to be Sufis and > claimed Bahaullah was a Sufi Shaykh in order to get converts. Where that has happened, it was almost never to get converts, in fact it was done usually in areas where we *did* not teach the Faith and its purpose was to provide some measure of protection in situations where they would otherwise be persecuted. In any case we stopped doing that during the time of the Guardian. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511037-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the > consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then > the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. Dear Iskandar, My understanding is that we are still not suppose to be inviting non-Baha'is to the 19-Day Feast, although they are not to be turned away if they show up. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511036-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Susan Maneck > Dear Gilberto, > > No one is suggesting that Muslims and Baha'is believe the same things. I think that when Bahais say they believe in the truth of Islam, that the Quran is the word of God, that Muhammad (saaws) is the Seal of the Prophets and believe in the 12 Shii Imams they are most definitely doing way more than suggesting that they believe the same things. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. There are definitely historical examples of Bahai missionaries using hikmat to pretend to be Sufis and claimed Bahaullah was a Sufi Shaykh in order to get converts. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511027-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. > > Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that > Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. > It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's paper. I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word "last". And it isn't what Muslims mean by "last". And when I'm feeling uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think it is a sincerely believed paradox. > Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, > Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that > He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus > is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a > lamp from which the unique light of "haqiqat muhammadiyyah" was shining. In > other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, > Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments). > Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the > consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then > the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. http://bahai-library.com/compilations/feast.html The above link is a compilation of different directives about the Feast from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ and all of section 6 is about restrictions on Feast attendance. It is pretty clear that non-Bahais aren't supposed to be invited and their presence at Feasts is to be avoided. If they are there anyway, the administrative portion of the meeting is to be postponed. Now, I actually don't see anything wrong with that. I totally understand that a community might want to have opportunities to discuss issues among themselves without prying eyes. But don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. It is obviously a form of exclusion. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511021-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > At the same time there are differences in understanding at multiple > points. For example, you say you acknowledge the truth of Islam. And I > accept that you are sincere. But a principle of Islam which is a > basic part of both Sunni and Shia belief is the idea Muhammad is the > last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects. Dear Gilberto, No one is suggesting that Muslims and Baha'is believe the same things. > > You say you believe the Quran is the authentic word of God and I > accept that you are sincere. But the Bahai faith also teaches that > Jesus is the divine son of God which blatantly contradicts a number of > different passages in the Quran. Baha'is don't believe in the incarnation which is what the Qur'an is rejecting. > > I don't; want to rehash old arguments and go back and forth on these > points, but those are just two examples where what a Bahai might mean > by saying "I believe in the Quran" is different from what a Muslims > means by saying "I believe in the Quran". In other words, we interpret it differently. So what? > > I think most communities, religious or otherwise have times and/or > places which are just for ,members of the community. For a long time > the Bahai 10-day feasts have been for Bahais only. Correct? 19 Day Feasts. These are restricted to Baha'is not because they are particularly sacred (and therefore not to be profaned by unbelievers) but rather because we discuss administrative affairs which we feel ought not to be discussed in the presence of 'guests.' And the > place I currently go to jummah turns out to be especially welcoming to > Christians. Yes, I've been in a number of mosques, the most important being the Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest place for Muslims. Mecca and Medina are the only places we can't go, and I don't begrudge Muslims for this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511019-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's paper. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a lamp from which the unique light of "haqiqat muhammadiyyah" was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson Sender: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:26:24 To: Baha'i Studies Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Tim Nolan wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a > Catholic boy, I was taught > to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should > be avoided. > > Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a > Messenger of God. > I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and is much more authentic than the > Bible. I believe > Islam is a true religion from the Creator. This is a direct result of my > acceptance of Baha'u'llah's revelation. > > If someone spoke badly of Muhammad or Islam I would do my best to defend > them with cogent words. > If a copy of the Qur'an fell on the floor I would hurry to pick it up and > clean it off. > These are just examples. Because of being Baha'i, I respect Muhammad and > acknowledge the truth of Islam. > If I had remained Chrstian, my vision would probably have remained clouded. > I think those are all amazing great things. And I accept that there are Bahais who help combat obvious forms of Islamophobia. and try to have a basic respect for Muslims. At the same time there are differences in understanding at multiple points. For example, you say you acknowledge the truth of Islam. And I accept that you are sincere. But a principle of Islam which is a basic part of both Sunni and Shia belief is the idea Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects. You say you believe the Quran is the authentic word of God and I accept that you are sincere. But the Bahai faith also teaches that Jesus is the divine son of God which blatantly contradicts a number of different passages in the Quran. I don't; want to rehash old arguments and go back and forth on these points, but those are just two examples where what a Bahai might mean by saying "I believe in the Quran" is different from what a Muslims means by saying "I believe in the Quran". > If I could afford it, I would visit Mecca, but I think Muslims would not > allow it. > Note that people who are not Bahai's are welcome to visit the shrines in > the Holy Land, > and to visit Baha'i houses of worship. > > > I think most communities, religious or otherwise have times and/or places which are just for ,members of the community. For a long time the Bahai 10-day feasts have been for Bahais only. Correct? And the place I currently go to jummah turns out to be especially welcoming to Christians. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510956-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: s
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Tim Nolan wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a > Catholic boy, I was taught > to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should > be avoided. > > Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a > Messenger of God. > I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and is much more authentic than the > Bible. I believe > Islam is a true religion from the Creator. This is a direct result of my > acceptance of Baha'u'llah's revelation. > > If someone spoke badly of Muhammad or Islam I would do my best to defend > them with cogent words. > If a copy of the Qur'an fell on the floor I would hurry to pick it up and > clean it off. > These are just examples. Because of being Baha'i, I respect Muhammad and > acknowledge the truth of Islam. > If I had remained Chrstian, my vision would probably have remained clouded. > I think those are all amazing great things. And I accept that there are Bahais who help combat obvious forms of Islamophobia. and try to have a basic respect for Muslims. At the same time there are differences in understanding at multiple points. For example, you say you acknowledge the truth of Islam. And I accept that you are sincere. But a principle of Islam which is a basic part of both Sunni and Shia belief is the idea Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects. You say you believe the Quran is the authentic word of God and I accept that you are sincere. But the Bahai faith also teaches that Jesus is the divine son of God which blatantly contradicts a number of different passages in the Quran. I don't; want to rehash old arguments and go back and forth on these points, but those are just two examples where what a Bahai might mean by saying "I believe in the Quran" is different from what a Muslims means by saying "I believe in the Quran". > If I could afford it, I would visit Mecca, but I think Muslims would not > allow it. > Note that people who are not Bahai's are welcome to visit the shrines in > the Holy Land, > and to visit Baha'i houses of worship. > > > I think most communities, religious or otherwise have times and/or places which are just for ,members of the community. For a long time the Bahai 10-day feasts have been for Bahais only. Correct? And the place I currently go to jummah turns out to be especially welcoming to Christians. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510956-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
