Re: Ruhi and Charisma
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Friends, My question regarding Charisma and Ruhi is due to spotting this definition in Wikipedia under the listing for New Religious Movements. If you replace the word cult with the word movement you get what they refer to as the social model. I can¹t help but view the Ruhi movement as being something separate from the rest of the Baha¹i community as a result of its own jargon and community agenda. Am I wrong in believing that without a Ruhi ³education² you can¹t serve the Faith? Bill Below is what I cut and pasted from Wiki. Charismatic movements: NRMs based on charismatic leadership often follow the routinization of charisma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_authority#Routinizing_charisma , as described by the German sociologist Max Weber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber . In their book Theory of Religion, Rodney Stark and William Sims Bainbridge propose that the formation of cults can be explained through a combination of four models:] * The psycho-pathological model the cult founder suffers from psychological problems; he develops the cult in order to resolve these problems for himself, as a form of self-therapy * The entrepreneurial model the cult founder acts like an entrepreneur, trying to develop a religion which he/she thinks will be most attractive to potential recruits, often based on his/her experiences from previous cults or other religious groups he/she has belonged to * The social model the cult is formed through a social implosion, in which cult members dramatically reduce the intensity of their emotional bonds with non-cult members, and dramatically increase the intensity of those bonds with fellow cult members this emotionally intense situation naturally encourages the formation of a shared belief system and rituals. * The normal revelations model the cult is formed when the founder chooses to interpret ordinary natural phenomena as supernatural, such as by ascribing his or her own creativity in inventing the cult to that of the deity. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-660037-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi and Charisma
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Ah, by charismatic you meant cultish. I've always used the Charismatic Movement to refer to the movement in Christianity which emphasizes gifts of the spirit (charisma) such as speaking in tongues. . I can’t help but view the Ruhi movement as being something separate from the rest of the Baha’i community as a result of its own jargon and community agenda. Keep in mind that the agenda has been set by the Universal House of Justice, so I'm not sure how we can say it is separate from the rest of the Baha'i community. Also, the House itself has adopted to the 'jargon' as you put it. Am I wrong in believing that without a Ruhi “education” you can’t serve the Faith? Of course you can, at least in the US. (Can't answer for Canada, sorry.) Ruhi was designed to increase human resources not limit them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-660050-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi and Charisma
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 20/08/2012 3:42 AM, Skygram wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, Could Ruhi be defined as a Charismatic movement within the Baha'i Faith? Bill Probably in some countries YES, but not all countries or places. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-659767-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
accelerated courses ignore completely the praxis. Dear Hasan, And that's why when A clusters are created by using accelerated courses without implementing the practices growth does not occur. It's self-defeating. If Ruhi is anything at all, it *is* the practices. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
in the name of the general ruhiosity i will offer that the Master opines somwhere to the effect that it is more important to have agreement than accuracy which would make the first answer true, since correct has something to do with being with what is right since (a) we cannot know anything about the next life other than vague allusions ranging from strrets of gld to 70 + 1 houri, and God would know this about us, it cain't be important; and (b) people seem to have gotten along quite nicely throughout the Old Testament without a clue about a next life, so obviously false is the correct answer... to aswer david, ...possibly learning to listen as a vague glimpse of what consultation will b like when ever it is its turn to become manifest is a ruhi goal. as a facilitator, i know which book is mine in a stack becuase nothing is ever written in it. i know quite a few facilitators who have chaged answers bac and forth, based on the listening they have done with various collaborators. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
What kind of cult would the Faith be if you were allowed to do that;-?! David Friedman wrote: In order to advance to an A cluster a certain number of people must complete a few of the courses. Since I don't really learn anything or enjoy Ruhi I was wondering if there is some way one can 'do' a course without going in a course with others. Would I be able to do it in my own time and write my answers in the book and then get it checked off by a tutor? That way I could do it quicker rather than prolonging the agony. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Live Search delivers results the way you like it. Try live.com now! http://www.live.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
In order to advance to an A cluster a certain number of people must complete a few of the courses. Dear David, Not a 'few' of the courses. In order to become an A cluster there must be 30-50 people who have completed the *entire sequence* of courses. Since I don't really learn anything or enjoy Ruhi I was wondering if there is some way one can 'do' a course without going in a course with others. Would I be able to do it in my own time and write my answers in the book and then get it checked off by a tutor? The short answer to your question is no. Besides, there is no real 'checking off' because there are not supposed to be any right or wrong answers (despite the fact the questions are close-ended. That way I could do it quicker rather than prolonging the agony. Sorry. Suffering is. ;-} Personally, I wouldn't do Ruhi just to be part of the statistics that make us an A cluster. I'm taking and tutoring those courses where I think I can be of real service and ignoring the rest. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
What kind of cult would the Faith be if you were allowed to do that;-?! Seriously, taking the courses by yourself would destroy their whole purpose which is not to teach us certain things but to get us as a community *doing* certain things. So the books are useless without the practices. And one of the things you are supposed to learn to do is how to tutor these study circles. That's not going to happen by just reading the book. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
Hi Susan, there are not supposed to be any right or wrong answers (despite the fact the questions are close-ended. I wonder where the myth began that there are no right or wrong answers in the Ruhi method. Clearly there are right and wrong answers. For example: Book 1, Part 1, section 1...True or false...Something is correct when it is in agreement with the opinions of other people. Obviously this is false. Saying this is true would be a wrong answer. Book 1 Section 3 part 4True or false...It is important for us to know about life after death. Obviously trueFalse would be a wrong answer. There are many examples like these. Maybe a facilitator, out of courtesy, would not say That answer is wrong, but an answer can still be wrong or right, even if no one calls it that. The notion that there are no right or wrong answers may hold for some open ended questions, but for certain questions, that notion is silly. Tim Nolan - TV dinner still cooling? Check out Tonight's Picks on Yahoo! TV. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
accelerated courses ignore completely the praxis. I am at book 2 for that reason and because i cant find people. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: What kind of cult would the Faith be if you were allowed to do that;-?! Seriously, taking the courses by yourself would destroy their whole purpose which is not to teach us certain things but to get us as a community *doing* certain things. So the books are useless without the practices. And one of the things you are supposed to learn to do is how to tutor these study circles. That's not going to happen by just reading the book. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu http://hasaneliasperu.blogspot.com/ __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi
There are many examples like these. Maybe a facilitator, out of courtesy, would not say That answer is wrong, but an answer can still be wrong or right, even if no one calls it that. The notion that there are no right or wrong answers may hold for some open ended questions, but for certain questions, that notion is silly. Dear Tim, I agree. But the facilitators are trained in Book Seven not to consider any answers wrong. In my view, though, it flies against the design of the materials themselves which are close-ended. I suspect that what happened is that while these questions were designed to have right and wrong answers, a lot of participators rightly pointed out that things were often not that black and white. Tutors that approached their task too rigidly were alienating the participants. Book Seven which is aimed at training tutors, was actually written after a lot of bad experinces with rigid tutors using a rigid curriculum. So the emphasis in Book Seven is on flexibility, but in my mind the material doesn't easily lend itself to that. And tutors are often flexible in the one area which they shouldn't be, namely insisting that participants to do the practices. They'd rather have everyone read every passage two or three times and do nothing about it. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
I completely agree about Ruhi and youth. Here is my post from 2001: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m29288.html Unfortunately from then to now there hasn't been a Book 2 offering in our community as many others became enthusiastic and there have been several more Book 1 study circles. It has also been stated here in Alaska that Jr.Youth should not take the Ruhi course but, instead take the course (patterned after Ruhi) especially for Youth. I'm not sure what that is called. I'm curious if it is the same elsewhere. Regardless, it is only offered to Youth groups 15 and above and he is now 14. When will we ever focus on Jr. Youth as the House of Justice directed 3years ago ?!? lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
It has also been stated here in Alaska that Jr.Youth should not take the Ruhi course but, instead take the course (patterned after Ruhi) especially for Youth. Dear Sandra, I don't quite get that, nor have I seen anything like it in the lower 48. My experience is that children as young as 10 or 11 grasp how to do the basic exercises much quicker than the adults do, they stay focused better and get through the material quicker. It is certainly not too complicated for them. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/22/2005 10:32:19 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Sandra,I don't quite get that, nor have I seen anything like it in the lower 48. Myexperience is that children as young as 10 or 11 grasp how to do the basicexercises much quicker than the adults do, they stay focused better and getthrough the material quicker. It is certainly not too complicated for them.warmest, Susan When my daughter took the course there was no "Youth" Book 1. But she is an honor student, with a 4.0 average through middle school and high school and had no trouble with the material. I figure Ruhi is pretty straightforward, and written in a concrete reasoning kindof way. I certainly see no reason why it has to be watered down for youth. Ihave never seen a youth who could not grasp it. As it is, my daughter has finished all the available books but 5, and is one of the few people in the cluster, youth or not who has actually completed so much of the curriculum. Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as Isaid it was God-sent for my son.Regards, Ahang. My younger daughter has blossomed with it as well. I have no doubt it does good, I also have no doubt it is not sufficient to itself for all. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as Isaid it was God-sent for my son. Dear Ahang, The same thing is true for me and my son, on both counts. Only I suffered through the *entire* Book One. I took Neil to the Holy Land with me in December of 2000. Mr. Furutan had quite a talk with him about the Covenant and the necessity of reading the Writings every morning and evening. Last year when I had made some disparagingly commentabout Ruhi,Neil said to me, "Mom,I've been reading theWritings ever since that meeting with Mr. Furutan but the Writings are hard to understand. Ruhi helps." Neil had been reading the Writings fluently at Feast since he was eight years old. It never occurred to me that he might not understand what he was reading. I must say, Neil made the best argument for Ruhi I've heard thus far. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 3:32:19 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It sparks a fire in youth in my estimation, and those who are not well deepened. Those who spent years doing it the old way mostly find it redundant and repetitive as well as having heard it before. Exactly. And we do need to keep in mind that Ruhi wasn't designed for us, it was designed to consolidate mass enrollments. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
Susan: "Exactly. And we do need to keep in mind that Ruhi wasn't designed for us, it was designed to consolidate mass enrollments." Dear Susan, Why then are we encouraged and sometimes sort of forced to enroll for these courses? Is it just to increase statistics? Regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
Why then are we encouraged and sometimes sort of forced to enroll for these courses? Is it just to increase statistics? Nope. So we can tutor them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Your in danger of falling off your high horses. No one is making any judgmental assumptions about anyone (specifically). In fact, this reader would not have known who posted the comment about Paul until others mentioned specific names. This comment was made: Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there are also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials. And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another strong evangelist. Unfortunately, however, this comment led some to believe that an inference of impropriety was being made against certain members of institutions. Apologies are offered if this comment was misread or misinterpreted. Your subsequent email more elaborately explains your thinking. Beloved Khadehs suggestion appears to be most prudent .that we drop any further discussion of this issue. Again, apologies are extended if any improper conclusions were drawn. James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Thailand
Susan, I maintain that it is a job. And that the lsa is a body who has to decide who is qualified and who is not. i have known qualified teachers, who could not teach. Could not control a group. yet they were hired as a teacher. to me, personally, whether someone has done book 3 or has a masters in child psychology does not necessarily make them good teachers. Anybody who is an employer, whether for paid or unpaid work, should look for skills and characteristics in a person. Skills one can learn maybe in a course. Characteristics is a different thing. Anybody employing a teacher should make sure that person has the qualities of being able to relate to the age group they are teaching, and of being able to control a group in the right way, and is able to instill both knowledge and to extract virtues from thechildren they teach. And if that person has no qualifications in that he or she went through a course, whatsoever, but has the knowledge and the ability to do the above, then that teacher should be hired, even if there is someone there with 3 degrees in education and child psychology. Unless of course that person with the three degrees has been proven to be better inrelating to the age group and to extract virtues and instill knowledge. But that is me... much love, janine --- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if an LSA considers someone only qualified to be a teacher to a childrens class who has done a course in education, that is their right. Personally, I think it is shortsighted, but if people feel this way, then they feel this way. If an LSA feels only one who has done Ruhi book 3 can teach children, then they are entitled to decide so. Dear Janine, In this case, like so many, we are talking about excluding people who are actually overqualified in favor of having been through a certain curriculum. For instance, I once held a teaching credential in Early Childhood Education. I am a scholar in Baha'i history. How does not doing Book 3 make me unqualified? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Thailand
I maintain that it is a job. And that the lsa is a body who has to decide who is qualified and who is not. Dear Janine, If what you are trying to say is that an LSA can establish any prerequisite it wishes, I would agree. But when Ruhi books are made prerequisites for certain types of service it is decreasing, rather than increasing human resources, and thus defeating its purpose. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi for the last time
I am now tempted to leave this subject because, well, I dunno. Maybe I have a feeling it is not a subject pleasant to all. Not that we only should talk about things we feel comfortable with. At the same time I do not think it is wise to push a subject when it gets on the nerves of people. Dear Janine, I must confess, I myself cringe every time it is brought up. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
derogatory remarks on institutes (was RE: ruhi in ireland)
Dear james you write: internet lists have, at times, raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution. IMO, to make such a comment is never acceptable. The internet, however, seems to breed it and that, I feel, turns the stomach of many. I have no time for anybody who tries to indiscriminate any individual. With institutions, I have a more tolerant approach. I can understand the despair sometimes behind the remark. Did you ever look upon the certainty and the trust you have in the institutions of the faith as a bounty that has been vouchsafed to you by God? I do look upon it myself like that. Even though I have had some struggles to do, I know that I could never have survived the tests if God had not lead me. I think only because I turned to God in prayer for guidance every time I felt very challenged by an institution in my faith, I was considered worthy to receive such a bounty. Yet God could easily have let me struggle on my own, and coudl have told me time and again how despicable I was to have but one single syllable of doubt in my heart. Some people cannot see immediately what to you and me is obvious. A raised eyebrow does not help much here, nor does it helpthe serious seeker after truth (whether he has been a Bahai for donkeys years does not matter) . It may only turn them more desparing and cynical. Usually there is pain behind sneering remarks on the institutions. And sometimes a doubtful approach is interpreted by Bahais as close to covenant breaking. Someone in my community said, after hearing that some people I knew on the internet had great difficulty with that ruhi is now so much promoted and questioned the wisdom of that, she said: that is covenant breaking, because ruhi is approved by the UHJ and the ITC and it is a decision of the House to have ruhi done all over the world (I had to correct her on that). And the above is an attitude I think will lead to fundamentalism and shows that unity in diversity is not very well understood and that all the writings this person reads relating to how we should be with one another and how loving and kind we should be to one another are not understood. Because loving and kind is fine, to this person, wonderful even, but only to those who understand what she understands and see things the way she sees them. This attitude will never help the process of the realisation here in this world of matter of a spiritual truth: that mankind is essentially one. Some people simply do not know how to be not critical and sneering when they are in pain. That does not always mean that they have an aversion to the institutions or are completely disrespectful to it. It just means that they are in pain. On further probing it becomes quite quickly clear whether that person is attached to their opinion or whether that person is willing to let go and investigate whether they have maybe a big prejudice. much love, janine van rooij dublin, irelandJames Mock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have heard Dr. Arbab make remarks to this effect, however I think it wasPaul Lample who persuaded the NSA not to offer an alternative to Ruhi asthey had originally tried to do and even developed the materials for.Paul is very aware of the tendency for the American community to become gemicky.he seeks a sustained process. Let's start out by focusing on one set of materials; after we have mastered that, then we move on. I know there is more to his thinking than simply Ruhi."This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the ComprehensiveDeepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member DanJordan."Yeah, I think the difference is that people didn't feel that theComprehensive Deepening Program was being imposed on them the same way Ruhi! is. It was simply made available and the friends could take it or leave it.I have never felt that Ruhi has been "imposed" upon meonly that a process has been encouraged."Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not aboutspecific MATERIALS. It is about developing human resources in a systematicmanner."I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about aProcess. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process.Ah! Susan. Look at my wordsI said "Ruhi is ABOUT process," not that it IS the process.But I would agree with you that we should not suggest things that tarnishthe reputation of faithful servants of the Cause. There is no reason tothink anyone is promoting Ruhi for any other reason than they believe itwould serve the best interests of the Faith.Susan, this is one point that concerns ! me: internet lists have, at times, raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution. IMO, to make such a comment is never acceptable. The internet, however, seems to breed it and that, I feel, turns the
RE: Ruhi in Thailand
Anybody can set up a study circle. We can always refer back to the UHJ letters to bakc that up. To be a recognised ruhi facillitator, one has to do book 7 and in some countries, Ireland for example, this one cannot do before one has done book 1,2,3,4,6. but to set up any study circle one which does not use ruhi one has not to be recognised by anybody, cause the UHJ never said that in any letter. An ABM and a counsellor are people, and have no legislative authority. If they do not want to listen to a valid point you make, I suggest writing to the NSA and the UHJ about it. The more the UHJ gets to know, the better informed it is. So if Ruhi is not working in the USA, and counsellors go around telling things which are not based in truth, like that Ruhi demand came from the grassroots, then the UHJ should get tobe informed about this. In Europe it is VERY clear that we do Ruhi because the ITC recommends the method, (some people though think it is the UHJ, something I try to rectify whenever I can) and not because some unnamed lsa's in that respective country have requested to adopt this method. If you feel totally uncomfortable with Ruhi and have an idea to either adapt Ruhi (a counsellor in Russia did not see a problem with that, and I think that if you take the quotes from for example book 1, but change a whole lot of things copyright is not valid anymore, because it has become something new) or to do something completely different in a study circle, you can always start a study circle which is based on your own material. We should not be afraid to take initiative. There is plenty of room for personal initiative in this cause. A lot of us (somehow I do not think you are one of them Susan) are however waiting until the lsa or nsa suggests something or until other bahais are doing it. We make suggestions at feast, fully expecting others to carry them out instead of taking some responsibility for it ourselves. After all, we spotted it, so we probably have the capacity to carry it out as well, so why not be willing to offer our services towards the realisation o! f our suggestion? You may be right that you might not be considered qualified to give childrens classes if you have not done book 3. And that is a perfectly legitimate decision of any LSA to make. Unfortunately for someone who does not like ruhi or the lesson plans in book 3 which are by the way geared towards 4-5 year olds... so for older or younger children new lesson plans have to be made anyway! Book 3 though is great fun: you can be a child again Legitimately. YOu can even behave likea disruptive child (I greatly enjoyed that part). much love, janine van rooij Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "I have always believed the books can be adapted."Dear Janine,This seems to be the position of Dr. Arbab himself, from what I've heard.But when I've suggested it in the states, I got two responses. One was thatthe material was copyrighted and therefore couldn't be changed. The otherresponse (from an ABM) was that the House thought it was fine as is. (Shedidn't go as far as to suggest we couldn't disagree with it, however.) WhenI pointed out that the House stated it wasn't their policy to endorse aparticular curriculum, she said it came from the World Centre and I waspicking at straws."And also, nothing I feel prevents you fromsetting up your own study circle. I don't think yourLSA would forbid you to set up a study circle."I don't know how it works in Thailand, but in the US tutors and studycircles ha! ve to be approved by the Institutes before they 'count' for thepurpose of fulfilling goals or certifying that a person has completed acourse.warmest, Susan__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Ireland
I am very sensitive when people start throwing doubts on other peoples motives publicly. To me it is slander. And I will continue to say so. And I have nothing against this person Steve. But anybody who makes a slanderous remark will hear something in protest from me. Even if that person is my dearest friend. much love, janineKhazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort ofdiscussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted suchdiscussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide amost dear friend from a post code in nz from one in Ireland...or one fromThailand from one in the US... I do not know what is about Ruhi but it doesrapidly generate these tensions when discussed and discussed [not whenimplemented perhaps]. One can study texts the Revealed Word as I am doing asJohn Smith is doing [just as one can do so in a home in Ireland]. Let us befriendly. Mark can you come to our help? Humblest dust in the path of allkhazehOnly the Word of God can unite not Ruhi as Ruhi...[or I am mistaken]*** "Consider the flowers of a garden. Though differing in kind, color,form and shape, yet, inasm! uch as they are refreshed by the waters of onespring, revived by the breath of one wind, invigorated by the rays of onesun, this diversity increaseth their charm and addeth unto their beauty.How unpleasing to the eye if all the flowers and plants, the leaves andblossoms, the fruit, the branches and the trees of that garden were all ofthe same shape and color! Diversity of hues, form and shape enricheth andadorneth the garden, and heighteneth the effect thereof. In like manner,when divers shades of thought, temperament and character, are broughttogether under the power and influence of one central agency, the beauty andglory of human perfection will be revealed and made manifest. NAUGHT BUTTHE CELESTIAL POTENCY OF THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH RULETH AND TRANSCENDETH THEREALITIES OF ALL THINGS, IS CAPABLE OF HARMONIZING THE DIVERGENT THOUGHTS,SENTIMENTS, IDEAS AND CONVICTIONS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN." (Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'! u'llah, Page: 42)***[emphasisadded]sure. lets all get down to a sceptical approach and throwaway all trust and faith. do you know Paul Lamplepersonally or anybody on the ruhi institute incolombia?Maybe then the world will change you have to be careful. Because this post in myopinion is slanderous. janine van rooijdublin, ireland--- Steve Cooney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process. It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected institution. Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and promoters of the Study Circle "en! gine" on the ITC. I wonder too if there are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there are also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials. And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach. Cheers, Steve Cooney.__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]! t; Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email tomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to[EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduW! eb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use
RE: ruhi in ireland
I will only comment that what most Bahais call firesides are not firesides in my view at all. And I have noticed that I become less clear in teaching the more I use my own understanding of the faith, and that my words have more impact if i use in a natural way quotes from the writings when I tell people aboutthe bahai faith. Through these quotes they become curious and are more open tostudying the writings, at which point I give them a book or go through some quotes with them (well, this has happened twice ;o) since I did book 2). Susan: So far as I know Institutes don't offer us children's classes ordevotionals, just study circles. ;-} maybe I have understood it not correctly. But I got the idea from letters by the UHJ that the institute process consists of study circles, childrens classes and devotionals. Maybe I got that wrong. much love, janine van rooij dublin, ireland.Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "What is a fireside? Getting acouple of friends together and talk about the Bahaifaith."Dear Janine,When the Guardian said it was the best teaching method he gave as his reasonthat it allows the seeker to ask all of the questions in their hearts."What did it turn into? official talks aboutpeoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I haveheard very few quotes studied in a fireside."I'm not so sure how necessary it is to study quotes at firesides, butindividual pontificating is not the best idea either. As the Guardiansuggested a fireside should focus on the seeker. In most communities seekerswho were ready to study the Writings in more depth were more than welcome atdeepenings."When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community wasmuch smaller. The UHJ has given us the instituteprocess whihc! is offering study circles, childrensclasses and devotionals to the community at large."So far as I know Institutes don't offer us children's classes ordevotionals, just study circles. ;-} But I agree that the closer we get toentry by troops the less serviceable traditional firesides are likely tobecome. That is because firesides are really only effective with people weknow and to have entry by troops we have to bring in those we don't know.And one thing that was learned from the media campaign is that seekers don'twant to come to meetings at the homes of strangers. And the first meetingthey expect to attend is a worship service. Until we began devotionalmeetings we didn't have any of those to offer. But those devotional meetingsmay not do us any good in terms of increasing our numbers unless we holdthem at Baha'i Centers. Right now the emphasis is on 'multiplying' suchmeetings. If that means holding them more frequently a! nd regularly, well andgood. But if it means we divide our resources so that we are having lots oflittle meetings at individuals homes, I think it will be self-defeating.Seekers want to attend worship services at neutral venues."If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask forfeedback of that friend, and if the friend is nothappy with the method, I will ask what she feels aboutthe quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I willask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahaiwritings, and then work out a system wherewith she canstudy the writings.I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurredjust now to me that maybe some people do not dothis..."It strikes me that you are using the 'fireside method' recommended by theGuardian, namely answering the questions in the seeker's own heart. But Ithink the Ruhi method is very different. ;-}"It is interesting that you and I have such a differentexperience with the books themselves."Except you apparently did have the same reaction when you read these books.Wasn't it the Study Circles themselves which changed your opinion."Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children,which is very much in alignment with my view, so i hadnot muchproblems there, but that is the only book Ican remember that strongly focussed on theinterpretation of the editors of the writings (in thiscase, on how to treat children)."My recollection is that section 2 of Book One had very little to do withanything from authoritative texts."That is okay, and Icannot see any objection you asking your community forsupport in setting up something for your friends."Well, I did complain about the fact that Ruhi was taking up so much of thecommunity's time that firesides had disappeared. Which was a problem,because I usually have plenty of seekers ! to bring. After I said that theydid start having firesides once again more regularly."It is there, it has beentested for 20 years."I wish the testing had been a little more scientific with some equivalent todouble-blinds."I amso happy to have the internet, because that means Ican go even international now and work on differentlevels: mystical, intellectual and the mainstreamBahai."Yeah, it has been important to me this way as well. Most of the things Italk about here would elicit nothing but glazed-eyed stares in my
RE: ruhi in ireland
Janine and James et al, Your in danger of falling off your high horses. I never suggested any actual impropriety, what I asked for was that the Ruhi Institute materials be placed in the public digital domain, in order to avoid/mitigate any semblance of impropriety, any possibility of pecuniary advantage, or any hint of capture by elites etc. Paul Lample, whom I have met I have nothing but respect for, and I am sure that so far the sale of Ruhi books has probably not paid anybody's grocery bill even, but if there was, master plan coming to fruition, say 100 million copies transacted at 10c, well you do the maths. Paul has displayed his generosity by putting his book Creating a New Mind in digital format (http://www.juxta.com/newmind-en-1.1.pdf). I would like to see the anonymous Ruhi Foundation curriculum designers do the same . That still lets them sell the printed/bound version. I would like to understand better the intellectual property aspects of the Ruhi Foundation's curriculum production business and the Network of agencies which goes by the moniker Development Learning Association of which the Ruhi Foundation is a member. Respond to this post if you can shed any meaningful scholarly light. Development Learning Press and the whole army of Badi Foundation, William Mmutle Maseltha Foundation, Universidad Nur, Two Wings Foundation, Development Learning Association, FUNDAEC, Foundation for Advancement of Science, The Ruhi Foundation (The Social and economic development arm of the Ruhi Institute) are associated or linked with Palabra Publications and Development Learning Press shares the same Palm Beach address as Palabra Publications. These social and economic institutions and orgnizations, some of which are private and some agencies of NSA's should perhaps be disentangled from the worldwide internal human resource development programs of the Bahai Faith, is all I am suggesting??. Now we have the curriculum designers branching into something called The Ruhi Music Curriculum in Florida. http://www.fbssc.org/fbsswebsitejune10_010.htm ,and news that Palabra is getting into CD production. Again the music that goes with these programs could be downloadable as digital media. And just for the record, I have forgiven those who have suggested I have slandered Paul Lample but I insist that such suggestions cease forthwith. Two Wings: http://www.twowings.or.at http://www.twowings.or.at/englisch/e_index.html Development Learning Press: http://www.devlp.com Fundaec: http://www.fundaec.org/ Ruhi Foundation: ??? (try and drum up something meaningful with Google) Badi Foundation: http://www.badi-foundation.org Nur University: http://www.nur.edu/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi in Thailand
Dear janine, Thanks again for your reply. Talking about Adib Taherzadeh, I would like to comment that I do admire him. I had an opportunity to meet him during my pilgrimage in 1996 and I really did enjoy talking with him and listening to him. In fact I should say that I have met quite a number of counselors who have sacrificed so many things for the Faith and are the essence of love, knowledge, and humility. But I suppose not all counselors are the same. Again I would agree with you in many respects. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
I never suggested any actual impropriety, what I asked for was that the Ruhi Institute materials be placed in the public digital domain, in order to avoid/mitigate any semblance of impropriety, The problem Steve, is that I don't think anyone saw any semblance of impropriety until you suggested it. I have sometimes wondered if Ruhi would have gotten as far as it did had not Dr. Arbab been on the House of Justice, but the idea that anyone would do this for personal gain would never have occurred to me. Aren't all the organizations you mention, non-profit? I would like to understand better the intellectual property aspects of the Ruhi Foundation's curriculum production business and the Network of agencies which goes by the moniker Development Learning Association of which the Ruhi Foundation is a member. Respond to this post if you can shed any meaningful scholarly light. First off, what does 'scholarly light' have to do with their coming on here and to answer a challenge to put their stuff in the public domain in order to avoid an 'appearance' of impropriety that wasn't there until you opened your mouth? That's like a certain person on TRB who is constantly asking me to produce my tax records to prove I'm not on the payroll of the ITC! Such charges shouldn't be dignified with an answer. These social and economic institutions and orgnizations, some of which are private and some agencies of NSA's should perhaps be disentangled from the worldwide internal human resource development programs of the Bahai Faith, is all I am suggesting??. Why? Again, are any of them other than non-profit organizations? And just for the record, I have forgiven those who have suggested I have slandered Paul Lample Gee, how generous of you. ;-} but I insist that such suggestions cease forthwith. I'd like to see Ruhi in the public domain as well since, as I mentioned, it would make modifying it much simpler. But when you start demanding that organizations and people let go of their copyrights in order to 'avoid the appearance of impropriety' you are certainly implying wrongdoing. I would not have used the word 'slander' to describe your earlier comments, and I thought some people overreacted a bit. But I have to agree with James and Janine that it was inappropriate. And this post indicates you still 'don't get it.' Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
Book 6 gave me a scenario for the subjects which are most important to be brought up in talking to another about the bahai faith (I happen to agree with the importance of the subjects book 6 suggest) and also gave me a manner, a way of speakign and being with a person one wants to tell about the Bahai faith. It also made me think about what teaching is. Dear janine, I remember when I did book 6, I had a problem with one of the editorial comments about one of the quotations. I do not have book 6 right now with me, I try to get a copy of the book and tell you what my problem is and see what you think about it. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
I thought there is Core in the USA. Is that not considered an alternative? Dear Janine, The Fundamental Verities portion of the Core Curriculum existed prior to the Study Circles and was then modified to meet the House's criteria for a basic sequence of courses. But Ruhi got a head start here because it was the only one which met the House's criteria already. Therefore the Institutes were then packed with pro-Ruhi enthusiasts. When the NSA ordered that Fundamental Verities be offered as an alternative to Ruhi, the Institutes resisted, backed I think by the Counsellors and ABMs. Then Paul Lample was sent out by the ITC to persuade the NSA to change its decision. and one can always ask for confirmation of the view of a counsellor by writing to the UHJ. They have known to disagree with the view of a counsellor before, and with the view of an NSA before. I have heard rumors that the NSA may have done that, but I can't say for sure. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Thailand
Anybody can set up a study circle. We can always refer back to the UHJ letters to bakc that up. Dear Janine, I know that, but it won't get counted as fulfilling any goals. So if Ruhi is not working in the USA, and counsellors go around telling things which are not based in truth, like that Ruhi demand came from the grassroots, then the UHJ should get to be informed about this. It was a House member not a Counsellor who said people voted for Ruhi with their feet. If you feel totally uncomfortable with Ruhi and have an idea to either adapt Ruhi (a counsellor in Russia did not see a problem with that, and I think that if you take the quotes from for example book 1, but change a whole lot of things copyright is not valid anymore, because it has become something new) or to do something completely different in a study circle, you can always start a study circle which is based on your own material. Yep, but it won't qualify as the basic sequence of courses needed to fulfill the Plan goals. A lot of us (somehow I do not think you are one of them Susan) are however waiting until the lsa or nsa suggests something or until other bahais are doing it. Well, I wouldn't want to go through all the work like the designers of Fundamental Verities did to design an alternative curriculum only to find it can't be used as such. You may be right that you might not be considered qualified to give childrens classes if you have not done book 3. And that is a perfectly legitimate decision of any LSA to make. Is it? Book 3 is not the most ideal curriculum for educating children anyhow. By all acounts Core Curriculum is much better in this respect. Unfortunately for someone who does not like ruhi or the lesson plans in book 3 which are by the way geared towards 4-5 year olds... so for older or younger children new lesson plans have to be made anyway! Book 3 though is great fun: you can be a child again I hate deepening classes that treat me like a child. That is probably why neither Ruhi or Core Curriculum appeal to me much. When the scissors and crayons come out I'm gone. But maybe that is just because I can't cut or color. ;-} warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
I remember when I did book 6, I had a problem with one of the editorial comments about one of the quotations. Dear Firouz, I've had problems this way as well, though I've never done Book 6. But one Baha'i insisted I wasn't giving firesides right because I wasn't keeping it simple like Book 6 said. He wanted me instead to ignore a seeker's question which he insisted wasn't important, that we knew what seekers needed and that is what we should give them. The editorial comments of Book 6 took precedence over the Guardian's guidance! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: devotionals (was RE: ruhi in ireland)
Dear Susan, you are right I have not seen any statistics ;o) I think a devotional meeting is not passing the prayer book around. I think it is creating a devotional atmosphere. I usually print out some quotes and prayers and try to make it as diverse as possible, with prayers from different religions. There is a website on the internet which has word documents containing quotes from different religions around one theme, like unity for example. I use music as well, and try to make a special atmosphere in the room by lighting candles. I think a lot of Bahais have no idea how to create a spiritual atmosphere, but luckily there is something like the Tranquility Zone (there is a website as well) and I got a lot of ideas from there Do a search or look on www.bahai.org.uk. I think some people are more interested in a small group than others. It may be that in your area a devotional in a house does not work, but one cannot know that for certain until at least 4 or 5 people have tried it on a regular basis. I think if you have devotionals in your house, you feel more taht it is your responsibility to offer it to people you meet. But I do not wish to say that public devotionals should not be held. Only, we held them for years in hotels etc and not many people showed up. The only public devotionals with big success are the tranquility zones in Swindon, UK. And that is because that spiritual dimension through music and the decoration of the room is added. much love, janine van rooij dublin, irelandSusan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: " maybe I have understood it not correctly. But I got the idea from lettersby the UHJ that the institute process consists of study circles, childrensclasses and devotionals. Maybe I got that wrong."Dear Janine,No, those are the three core activities of the Five Year Plan. The hope isthat the Institute Process will eventually lead to the multiplication of allthree, but it is only directly involved in study circles."I have understood that we should do devotionals as much as possible in ourown home, to reach the most people, because the more bahais and non-bahaishave devotionals, the more people can come to them."That is the way they have been pushing devotionals but I'm not sure that issuch a good idea. As I said, studies indicate that seekers want to attendworship services in a neutral place, not in strangers' homes."If you have ten bahais in a town and one regular devotional, whereeverybody can come, you reach less people than if you have ten devotionalsin the town at each persons home who invites his or her personal friends andfamily."I would be more inclined to invite my friends and family over to a regularlyestablished worship service than a prayer meeting in my home."Have you seen the Building Momentum video?"Bits and pieces."There were examplesof this and how a non=bahai held a devotional in herown home as well.It does work, actually. It works better than regular devotionals in onecentral place, because we have held them on and off in europe and people youknow personally will feel more comfortable coming to your own home thancoming to a center, because you have a bond withthem."But entry by troops involves getting people to meetings whom we don'tnecessarily have a personal bond with. I'v! e not seen any studies whichcompare the statistics on the effectiveness of well-planned worship servicesvs. small home based devotionals, have you? But I'll grant you that inEurope where only 4% of the population goes to church on any given Sunday,this approach might be more effective. I live in a part of the country where*most* people go to church at least two times a week and if we can't createthat intense sense of community we won't get anywhere here. I agree that atsome point you need to multiply these meetings simply to handle the sheernumbers of people we hope to have. But to multiply them before the numbershave begun to increase are there strikes me as doing something like goingback to the good ole days of paper Assemblies and moving around to openlocalities. We had a goals to fulfill by God we were going to have themwhether we ended up with anything viable or not! In my opinion part of theadvantage of clustering is that ! it enabled us to combine resources in orderto put in place all of the three core activities. The time to multiply, itseems to me, is when our numbers actually begin to grow as a result. Butinstead we seem to imagine that multiplication by itself will bring growth.I think it just drains our resources."I think entry by troops will happen when we have 100 bahais in a town eachholding their devotionals having regularly 3-4 people attending"Except I don't expect my seekers to want to go to prayer meetings with just3-4 people attending. What are we going to do? Just pass around the prayerbook? Most non-Baha'is find that boring! We need well-planned devotionalmeetings much like the ones in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkars. Better in fact,because most non-Baha'is find
RE: ruhi in ireland
So, why not ask your NSA directly? Or the UHJ? You see, I think fundamentalism is the last thing the world needs. It has been overemphasis of one aspect which lead religions into acts unworthy of the religion. I am quite viligant that this should not happen in the Bahai faith. So if I was concerned about fundamentalism, I would write to the NSA and UHJ if I thought a particular method would lead to this. much love, janineSusan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought there is Core in the USA. Is that not considered an alternative?Dear Janine,The Fundamental Verities portion of the Core Curriculum existed prior to theStudy Circles and was then modified to meet the House's criteria for a basicsequence of courses. But Ruhi got a head start here because it was the onlyone which met the House's criteria already. Therefore the Institutes werethen packed with pro-Ruhi enthusiasts. When the NSA ordered that FundamentalVerities be offered as an alternative to Ruhi, the Institutes resisted,backed I think by the Counsellors and ABMs. Then Paul Lample was sent out bythe ITC to persuade the NSA to change its decision."and one can always ask for confirmation of the view of a counsellor bywriting to the UHJ. They have known to disagree with the view of acounsellor before, and with the! view of an NSA before."I have heard rumors that the NSA may have done that, but I can't say forsure.warmest, Susan__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: devotionals (was RE: ruhi in ireland)
I think some people are more interested in a small group than others. It may be that in your area a devotional in a house does not work, but one cannot know that for certain until at least 4 or 5 people have tried it on a regular basis. Dear Janine, We don't have much choice where I live because we don't have a Baha'i Centre. But well-planned, larger devotional meetings seem to work better than dividing our resources between a bunch of smaller ones. And seekers that contact us through the media campaign usually prefer to go to a meeting hall than the home of someone they don't know. That isn't even safe in today's world. The only public devotionals with big success are the tranquility zones in Swindon, UK. And that is because that spiritual dimension through music and the decoration of the room is added. That is exactly the kind of thing that needs to happen IMV and that usually can't be replicated in smaller meetings. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
So, why not ask your NSA directly? Or the UHJ? Dear Janine, I nearly did that recently when I wrote the House regarding another matter. But a Counsellor wisely advised me against dumping all the gripes I had collected over the last five years on them that way. ;-} I stuck to the original purpose of my letter instead, one I think is much more urgent than the question of Ruhi in any case. I like to pick my battles and Ruhi is one I suspect I will lose. Hell, even my son is against me when it comes to that. He likes Ruhi. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi in Thailand
Janine: You may be right that you might not be considered qualified to give childrens classes if you have not done book 3. And that is a perfectly legitimate decision of any LSA to make. Dear Janine, Here I cannot agree with you. There have been and there are excellent children class teachers who have been doing a great job. To me it shows stupidity of a decision by an LSA to require all children class teachers to pass Book 3 or now a days Book 5. It would be similar to tell a Baha'i Teacher not to teach the Faith unless he/she has finished book 2 and book 6. best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi in Thailand
In a message dated 1/19/2005 10:37:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Janine,Here I cannot agree with you. There have been and there are excellent children class teachers who have been doing a great job. To me it shows stupidity of a decision by an LSA to require all children class teachers to pass Book 3 or now a days Book 5.It would be similar to tell a Baha'i Teacher not to teach the Faith unless he/she has finished book 2 and book 6.best regards,Firouz We have a Children's Education Committee in our community under the auspicesof the LSA. It is composed of professional educators and long term child's education Baha`is. It would be a pompous decision indeed to assum that those professionals and veterans of Core Curriculum training would be incompetent to teach because they had not taken book 3 or 5 of the Ruhi system Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there are also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials. And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach. From personal knowledge and experience, Palabra Publications is not owned by Paul Lample, nor does he receive any profit from it. He promotes Ruhi because he feels that it is significant material that is having a positive effect world wide. Dr. Arbab was involved with the development of Ruhi and has first hand experience with its success. Both gentlemen support the process and understand its potentialand both are quite open to other materialsthey have just seen the success that this process can have and, therefore, encourage what is available and useful. It betrays confidence in the Universal House of Justice to assume that it is not aware of what is happening in the world and to suggest, by inference, that individual members, the ITC itself or members of the House of Justice are promoting something simply because of connections or royalties. This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member Dan Jordan. Just because someone is associated with an institution, doesn't mean that they cannot produce or distribute materials. In fact, it could be argued that the Universal House of Justice appointed Paul Lample to the ITC BECAUSE he was an advocate of Ruhi prior to his appointment to the ITC or his association with Palabras. Paul, in particular, is one of the most inciteful people that this soul has had the blessing to encouter. We worked together at the Baha'i National Center from 1980-1987. Even during that time, Paul demonstrated an in-depth knowledge of the underlying processes effecting humanity and developed several though-provoking programs. He has a tremendous intellect and, when everyone was talking about short-term campaigns such as I am a tiny cell, Paul was comtemplated the deeper processes of growth and development. Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not about specific MATERIALS. It is about developing human resources in a systematic manner. People witnessed the initial stages of Entry by troops during the 60s and 70s, but there was no systemtic method for consolidating the victories of the time. Therefore, names such as paper assemblies, mass taught Baha'is, etc. became part of our vocabulary. Today, we have the beginnings of a wonderful process that is aimed at increasing the capacity of the community and helping it prepare for that day when Entry by Troops becomes a reality. Little by little, day by day. The PROCESSes in the world are gradual. There was a time, for example, when Baha'is consumed wine.the Master SLOWLY weaned the friends from the practice. Everything unfolds as He wills. Ruhi is a start. Undoubtedly, better materials will come to exist in the future. Everything changes. We must be confident that ALL is in His hand. He is the All-seeing, the All-knowing, the All-wise. Be confident! James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Susan, it could be argued that our efforts, in general, have been less effective in urban areasOne cannot be sure that Ruhi, itself, is less effective than any other approach in urban areas. Dear James, Yes, if effectiveness is measured by an increase in human resources or entry by troops, then it could be said other methods don't seem any more effective. However, we certainly can measure whether urban versus rural Baha'is personally find Ruhi as enriching as much as they might like some other approach. Again, the method should not be automatically faulted; there may be other extinuating circumstances. The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very active in Ruhi. But it was identified by the NTC as the area with the greatest potential for large scale growth long before Ruhi. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Both gentlemen support the process and understand its potentialand both are quite open to other materials they have just seen the success that this process can have and, therefore, encourage what is available and useful. Dear James, I have heard Dr. Arbab make remarks to this effect, however I think it was Paul Lample who persuaded the NSA not to offer an alternative to Ruhi as they had originally tried to do and even developed the materials for. This one has never seen on this list a condemnation of the Comprehensive Deepening Materials (US in the 70s), which were produced by NSA member Dan Jordan. Yeah, I think the difference is that people didn't feel that the Comprehensive Deepening Program was being imposed on them the same way Ruhi is. It was simply made available and the friends could take it or leave it. Friends, while we are on the subject, Ruhi is about a PROCESS, not about specific MATERIALS. It is about developing human resources in a systematic manner. I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about a Process. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process. But I would agree with you that we should not suggest things that tarnish the reputation of faithful servants of the Cause. There is no reason to think anyone is promoting Ruhi for any other reason than they believe it would serve the best interests of the Faith. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
The opposite would also be true. Areas where Baha'is are very active in study circles might experience large-scale growth just because they have active Baha'is to begin with, not because of Ruhi. I expect to see high growth, for instance, in the triangle area of North Carolina which is very active in Ruhi. But it was identified by the NTC as the area with the greatest potential for large scale growth long before Ruhi. True! Ruhi, one could argue, is about processdeveloping the process of systemtic action as a routine element of the Baha'i community. The materials are just a tool for establishing the process. How are things? Thanks, again, for coming to Shereen's reception. James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
In a message dated 1/18/2005 11:28:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think it would be more precise to say that Study Circles are about aProcess. Ruhi represents certain materials designed to further that process I agree. Ruhi is a curriculum. I have done four books so far. Book I which is an okay approach to basic spiritually oriented material, is basically sound, but I do not think the material can be presented in the same way to seekers as it is to believers. To believers it is taught as material to be nearly memorized at least, not discussed with questions of "What does this mean?". With seekers, gosh, I think questions should be encouraged and dealt with as honestly and directly as possible, preferably with more than one answer from more than one person, and lots of discussion. Book 2, I personally found to be lamentable - with text and editorial opinion intermixed so much that newcomers would find it hard to seperate one from the other.. Book 4, I found good, but basic. I kind of co-facilitated because I prepared material from Dawnbreakers or Taherzadeh to elaborate on the glosses. Book 7 was okay, I think more facilitators should do it more than once with more than one facilitator to allow more flexible approaches. There is nothing wrong with Ruhi that another set or two of prepared material would not cure. Right now it is the only cow to buy and it might or might not be a milk cow and you might or might not be in the market for a dairy cow in the first place. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
James wrote: Paul is very aware of the tendency for the American community to become gemicky.he seeks a sustained process. Let's start out by focusing on one set of materials; after we have mastered that, then we move on. Gimicky? Work had been done on the Fundamental Verities program long before Ruhi arrived on the scene. At the time, though, it didn't quite fit the House's latest criteria for Study Circles. So the next few years were spent modifying it for that purpose. Then when the revised program was ready to launch it was torpedoed. What really bugs me James, is that just after this happened Doug Martin went around the country talking about how Ruhi hadn't come from the Universal House of Justice but people had voted for it with their feet. How can he say that when the only chance we might have had to 'vote' was just taken away? I know there is more to his thinking than simply Ruhi. Yeah, there is. His argument was that the ITC's research indicated there needed to be 50 believers in each locality who had completed the entire sequence for there to be sufficient human resources to sustain large scale. The fear was that having two different sequences might slow down the process of communities reaching that goal. Maybe that is a legitimate concern. But if Ruhi is being imposed from above, at least they should admit that is what they are doing rather than tell us we voted for with our feet. I have never felt that Ruhi has been imposed upon meonly that a process has been encouraged. I'm glad you haven't. But that isn't the case everywhere. Study Circles (unlike CDP) have been made the center of Baha'i community life and those who don't participate are naturally going to feel marginalized. At the Nashville Conference a couple of years ago, for instance, Ruhi was all the speakers talked about, so if your one of those who really can't stomach it you are bound to feel alienated. Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that to be a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up study circles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi. I know there are areas in the Pacific where Baha'is trying to teach other kinds of deepenings have been told to stop for fear it might detract from Ruhi. In other places Ruhi has been made the prerequisite for other kinds of service to the Cause, such as teaching children's classes or participating in teaching projects. Right now I'm teaching children's classes so all the other adults can do Book 3, when they finish I suppose I will no longer be qualified to teach childrens classes, after all, I haven't done Book 3. ;-} Susan, this is one point that concerns me: internet lists have, at times, raised eyebrows precisely because someone makes a comment that is derrogatory about an institution or individuals on an institution. IMO, to make such a comment is never acceptable. Derogatory is a bit too broad a term and could be applied to anything that is the least bit critical. But I think we do need to avoid saying things which on anyone's integrity without the strongest proof. We also need to avoid undermining the authority of the institutions, which I grant you has been fairly liberally interpreted on this list. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
In a message dated 1/18/2005 5:37:32 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, I've heard Counsellor insist that tobe a homefront pioneer requires that one be prepared to set up studycircles, and in the absence of an alternative curriculum, that means Ruhi. The Southern Regiona Council has released a pamphlet for homefront pioneers that states this quite clearly, Susan. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi in Thailand
Firouz, I am sorry for your experiences. They do not seem to be good. A couple of years ago (2 I think) there was a counsellor from Russia over in Ireland to attend a non-Bahai conference. She told us that in her town the LSA decided to offer the Ruhi book 1 as a personal development course to the wider community (non-Bahais). They adapted the book insuch a way that people could attend only one session if they wanted and asked for feed back each session. This seemed to work well. I have always believed the books can be adapted. Maybe you could have a further talk with your ABM about this? And also, nothing I feel prevents you from setting up your own study circle. I don't think your LSA would forbid you to set up a study circle. Quite often we feel that when an ABM or counsellor says such and such that that is the end ofthe matter. I think though that we can have far more say in things than we think we can. We can ask for a consultation with the ABM/Counsellor (thatis what they are for) but in the end they are individuals. Individuals who are considered to have an insight, wisdom and knowledge of the BAhai writings which makes them worthy to be part of the Branch of the Learned so their words weigh for me heavier than that of another individual, but that does not makethem infallible. I believe in the spirit of cooperation but I do not beleive in shutting up. I think that there is a way of consultation one can apply which is not argumentative, not hostile, but which is open and searching. I never read that counsellors and ABMs are under the same protection and guidance as LSAs, NSAs and the UHJ from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. We have the institutions to make the decisions, but what a person says is not binding and does not have to be always inspired. I hope you will find a way to set up your own study circle, (not a ruhi one) or to adapt the ruhi books to such a degree that they become successful in the area where you are. If you set up your own study circle and it is successful, people will notice and questions will be asked. much love, janine van rooij dublin, ireland __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Susan: In fact I was just thinking about just how visceral my reaction to Ruhi was; that I open the book and almost feel it shouting at me, We don't want you to think! But my experience of this material is probably shaped, at least in part, by the anti-intellectualism I've seen in the community at large. I did not have that after it was explained to me why you had to go back again to the quotes. Book 6 seems to abandon that method of not wanting to think quite a bit. Susan: If I recall correctly the passage you are alluding to, I think it is one which has been misused a lot. Wasn't Abdu'l-Baha talking more about Assembly members all getting behind a decision that the majority agreed upon rather than so much the community at large? In other words we are talking about a situation where each Assembly member got their say before the decision in question was made. I think the frustration a lot of us feel is over the fact that we were never part of the consultative process which decided on Ruhi material to begin with. In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process. It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected institution. I did not read it as such, I have read it quite a few times over the last year. But I will get it again from Ocean when I am home (this computer does not have Ocean) and read it again. I have the impression Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the attitude any Bahai should have, not only LSA members. Susan about firesides: He didn't just encourage it, he said it was the *best* teaching method. And I can't bring myself to introduce most of my friends to the Baha'i Faith through study circles. You mentioned how close its methods are to the Jehovah Witnesses. That is going to be the most striking thing to a visitor. I remember attending a Kingdom Hall meeting as a child and watching them use that method, thinking to myself that JWs weren't allowed to think. I never went back. Well... yes he said that. This was before the plan of the study circles. What is a fireside? Getting a couple of friends together and talk about the Bahai faith. What did it turn into? official talks about peoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I have heard very few quotes studied in a fireside. When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community was much smaller. The UHJ has given us the institute process whihc is offering study circles, childrens classes and devotionals to the community at large. Firesides can still happen. I will not go through all the ruhi books again after I have finished the cycle. I hope to be able to be a facillitator, and maybe even involved in setting up study circles which either adapt the ruhi method to a particular group of people or offer a different approach, again geared towards a certain group of people. I want to look for example into the Core material. Yeah, but we keep talking about 'multiplying' these activies which suggest to me that even when we are finished we just start the whole thing over again, which again, takes up all our resources. The study circles are first and foremost something to offer to the community. We are talking about multiplying the study circles, and at this moment in Ireland the ruhi books are offered, so it looks like we are multiplying the method of ruhi, but I wonder if that is what each and everybody means when talking about multiplying activities. If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask for feedback of that friend, and if the friend is not happy with the method, I will ask what she feels about the quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I will ask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahai writings, and then work out a system wherewith she can study the writings. I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurred just now to me that maybe some people do not do this... Susan: I have to say as a whole I find the facilitators in the US more flexible than the material itself seems to be. It is interesting that you and I have such a different experience with the books themselves. Interesting to me because I know myself as having a deep aversion of anything that is fundamentalistic, anythign that is routine like and does not induce using the mind. I worry a bit that maybe I am overlooking something. I have done book 1,2,4(which was okay like, not too exciting, most of it I knew already but some details I had forgotten, plus I am quite good in story telling, have a lot of experience with)book 3 and book 6. In that sequence. Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children, which is very much in alignment with my view, so i had not muchproblems there, but that is the only book I can remember that strongly focussed on the interpretation of the editors of the writings (in this case, on how to treat children). Book 2, the theory is quite good but the examples could be changed, shoudl be changed, to a more urban or western
Re: Ruhi in Thailand
Dear Firouz, Yes, time is a big thing. And talk about taking the words of an ABM or Counsellor for holy... (sigh). the first time I ever went to summer school, before becoming Bahai, Adib Taherzadeh was there and he was a counsellor. Most of us were camping. Every day Adib woudl walk the camping ground, saying hi to people, obviously trying to make contact. He was a bit shy, so he would not know exactly what to say after he said hi, but his whole manner was very friendly and indicative of wanting to have contact. And everybody was too much in awe to invite him for a cup of coffee or tea! So I went up to him at my third day and talked to him, treated him as a normal human being. He introduced me to his wife and his two then very small children. And a lot of people said to me: wow! Some admiringly, others with a hint of disapproval. I said: look, he is obviously looking for contact, and I think it is painful if nobody talks to him, treat him like a friend. They said: but do you know he is a counsellor? And I said: so what? He obviously wants to make friends with us, so why do we keep us away from him? I live now since 7 years in Dublin. Adib Taherzadeh pioneered for a long time, until he became member of the House of Justice, in the Dublin area. Some people quote him all the time, and I get a bit sick of that. As if his word was infallible. and I do say that occasionally. NOt too often, cause I have a sharp tongue and often what I say comes out far stronger than intended and will hurt peoples feelings. It is difficult when you are in a community where people are not very deepened, where you know more than they do. It is like being with children: a lot of patience and biting back of words is needed. Part of the process of sacrifice I think may be this, that one can see a certain aspect of the big diamond Truth that others cannot see, even when you point it out to them. One then need to chose the moments when one can speak about that aspect of truth very wisely. It can be very lonely being a Bahai. I wish you much strength and love, janine --- Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear janine, Thanks so much for your feedback. You're right absolutely and I fully agree with you on various points you are discussing here. The problem to my opinion is that majority of Baha'is specially here in Asia are not so deepened in the Writings and many do consider the words of a House member or a counselor or even a ABM as the Words of Baha'u'llah. If a counselor suggests something, everyone take it for granted that what is being suggested should be done. Being also a member of a LSA, I see very similar attitude among the members of LSA. I do hope somehow that all friends become more and more deepened by Ruhi or otherwise. Personally I do not count much on Ruhi. At this time I have just enough time to have a monthly fireside at my home which I do prefer it to a study circle. regards, Firouz Firouz, I am sorry for your experiences. They do not seem to be good. A couple of years ago (2 I think) there was a counsellor from Russia over in Ireland to attend a non-Bahai conference. She told us that in her town the LSA decided to offer the Ruhi book 1 as a personal development course to the wider community (non-Bahais). They adapted the book insuch a way that people could attend only one session if they wanted and asked for feed back each session. This seemed to work well. I have always believed the books can be adapted. Maybe you could have a further talk with your ABM about this? And also, nothing I feel prevents you from setting up your own study circle. I don't think your LSA would forbid you to set up a study circle. Quite often we feel that when an ABM or counsellor says such and such that that is the end ofthe matter. I think though that we can have far more say in things than we think we can. We can ask for a consultation with the ABM/Counsellor (thatis what they are for) but in the end they are individuals. Individuals who are considered to have an insight, wisdom and knowledge of the BAhai writings which makes them worthy to be part of the Branch of the Learned so their words weigh for me heavier than that of another individual, but that does not makethem infallible. I believe in the spirit of cooperation but I do not beleive in shutting up. I think that there is a way of consultation one can apply which is not argumentative, not hostile, but which is open and searching. I never read that counsellors and ABMs are under the same protection and guidance as LSAs, NSAs and the UHJ from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. We have the institutions to make the decisions, but what a person says is not binding and does not have to be always inspired. I hope you will find a way to set up your own study circle, (not a ruhi one) or to adapt the ruhi books to
Re: ruhi in ireland
:o) I must admit i was in a slightly provocative mood when I made that statement. The thing is, what I often see people call a fireside I don't think is a fireside at all. It is an official talk about what one person thinks the bahai faith is saying about a certain topic. But then, I am a person who likes study. I became a Bahai by reading the writings and then asking questions, not through going to firesides. The personal connection with someone one wants to introduce the Bahai faith to is the most important asset we have. But I see that as well as in building up such a bond with a person that I can overcome my fear of rejection and invite them to a study circle, deepening, devotional, and be able to talk freely about the bahai teachings and my bahai life with that person. To me, talking like this with a person is a fireside... much love, janine van rooij dublin, ireland --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:21:51 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have stopped, The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S. that the institute process should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it is, then attitudes need adjustment to comply with the guidance on the issue. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Thailand [lonely]
It can be very lonely being a Bahai. I wish you much strength and love, Janine van rooij To be LONELY is almost essential in being a Bahai Thou seest this Wronged One LONELY in exile: Where are the hosts of the heaven of Thy Command, O Sovereign of the worlds? (Baha'u'llah: Baha'i Prayers (US), Page: 217) This Youth is LONELY in a desolate land: Where is the rain of Thy heavenly grace, O Bestower of the worlds? O Supreme Pen, We have heard Thy most sweet call in the eternal realm: Give Thou ear unto what the Tongue of Grandeur uttereth, O Wronged One of the worlds! Were it not for the cold, how would the heat of Thy words prevail, O Expounder of the worlds? Were it not for calamity, how would the sun of Thy patience shine, O Light of the worlds? Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds. (Baha'u'llah: Baha'i Prayers (US), Pages: 219-220) Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men's eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How LONELY did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 89) Through the revelation of Thy grace, O Lord, Thou didst call Me into being on a night such as this,(1) and lo, I am now lonely and forsaken in a mountain. (The Bab: Selections from the Bab, Page: 173) O Lord! Strengthen my back, enable me to serve Thee with the utmost endeavour, and leave me not to myself, LONELY and helpless in these regions. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Tablets of the Divine Plan, Page: 46) How can my lonely pen, so utterly inadequate to glorify so exalted a station [that of the Sister of 'Abdu'l-Baha], so impotent to portray the experiences of so sublime a life, so disqualified to recount the blessings she showered upon me since my earliest childhood - how can such a pen repay the great debt of gratitude and love that I owe her whom I regarded as my chief sustainer, my most affectionate comforter, the joy and inspiration of my life? (Shoghi Effendi: Baha'i Administration, Page: 187) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Hi Susan, My take on it is this. Book 2 offered me the idea of introducing Baha'u'llahs words in a natural way in my speech. It gave me the practice and confidence to talk more freely than ever before about the Bahai teachings. Book 6 gave me a scenario for the subjects which are most important to be brought up in talking to another about the bahai faith (I happen to agree with the importance of the subjects book 6 suggest) and also gave me a manner, a way of speakign and being with a person one wants to tell about the Bahai faith. It also made me think about what teaching is. Book 3 taught me that a bit as well, because what it says about how to treat children is very much applicable to adults. To everybody. Book 4 was fun to do but did not teach me much. I am good at story telling and holding on to facts and I knew a lot of the history already. The social aspect of ruhi, in that you do it in a group is important to me as well. The answers to a question a person gives, the going off often in pairs to learn a quote etc, helps to build personal contact. I got to know people better, because I got to know another dimension of them, a dimension they would not show so much, because it is a dimension which comes up when one is occupied with the writings. The learning for example, by heart, together, of a quote can be quite powerful, because both of you repeat the words over and over again. It forges a bond. The human resources I am developing in that is a better insight in peopel and better social interaction. The two newly declared are adding their personal capacities to the pool of capacity we have in our community. That is an increase in human resources. In our community where a lto of people have done at least 2 books, more and more activities to reach out to non-Bahais are taking place. And this has not happened in all the 7 years I have been living here, even though we always had the same sized community. It seems that quite a few find inspiration through doing the books and spiral then into activities to reach out the non-Bahai community. much love, janine van rooij dublin, ireland. --- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S. that the institute process should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it is, then attitudes need adjustment to comply with the guidance on the issue. Dear Scott, I don't think it is a matter of 'attitude' it is a matter of energy. There is only so much of it to go around and right now that energy is being expended on Ruhi, leaving little time for firesides and deepenings. That being the case though, I have to question the extent to which Ruhi reaches its goal of increasing human resources? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland, Abdu'l-Baha about unity
Dear Susan, One does not exclude the other. I also feel that your interpretation of what Abdu'l-Baha is trying to do is too narrow. I think it does apply not only to assembly members, but to all of the community. I will later post some quotes for the reason why I think this, when I am back at a machine which has ocean on it. The focus on unity is very strong in Abdu'l-Bahas words and writings. Yet I do feel free to bring up anythign to the Assembly. I think I am quite unique in this, it seems that not many Bahais feel they can do this, or if that if they try they are rebuked. I think part of the problem is also the way we are trained to think in the west. We are trained to reject authority and to work for ourselves, to be competitive and to see the negative first before the positive. and to be very attached to our opinions. And to be argumentative, rather than proceed things in a manner of consultation. I am a very argumentative person. I quickly fall into a pro-contra discussion. here in Ireland that is not at all appreciated ;o) For a long time now I am asking myself how I can raise questions and issues I have with decisions taken by institutions and yet be cooperative and do it in a consultative way. by experimenting, not fearing the rejection of others, or disapproval, and open for correction, I am learning. The realisation that my opinion and interpretation of the writings is but an opinion and interpretation and not the absolute truth I so often feel it is, helps ;o) The realisation that I may see more than the average Bahai in my community or the country I am in, helps as well. And then the advice of Baha'u'llah to offer a truth in the utmost kindness, and if it is not accepted to be unconcerned by that, to be detached from that. I feel free to offer my insight, because I am not too concerned whether it is accepted or not. It may be that I am seeing more than another, it may be that i am just fooling myself. If I see more and itis not accepted, then clearly the community is not ripe for it. I can bring it up at another time. I am part of the process, andthe process is not in my hands, but in Gods hands. I can worry about it, but that does not help. Look what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi had to work with. Plans failign because people did not do what they needed to do and were told to do. And how patient and lovign they were. sometimes we have to turn to God and exert the utmost patience, because the community at large is not where we are, yet. And forcing it does not work. much love, janine van rooij dublin ireland --- Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Scott, What Abdu'l-Baha was trying to do was make sure that individual Assembly members did not undermine the authority of the institution as a whole by opposing the decision that body made. For them not to act in unity under these circumstances is rather like parents arguing discipline issues in front of their children--almost never a good idea if discipline is something the parents hope to maintain. I think the problem with over-generalizing that quotation from Abdu'l-Baha and applying it to the community as a whole rather than the individual members of the Assembly that made the decision is that it prevents the Assembly from getting the feedback it requires to determine whether or not something they implemented is working so they *can* change it if need be. If the believers 'for the sake of unity' feel they can't say what this isn't working corrections will never be made. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Ireland
Can I beg you all most humbly most supplicatingly to leave this sort of discussion about discussion about slander about Ruhi? I have noted such discussions become rapidly very very divisive. It can sunder and divide a most dear friend from a post code in nz from one in Ireland...or one from Thailand from one in the US... I do not know what is about Ruhi but it does rapidly generate these tensions when discussed and discussed [not when implemented perhaps]. One can study texts the Revealed Word as I am doing as John Smith is doing [just as one can do so in a home in Ireland]. Let us be friendly. Mark can you come to our help? Humblest dust in the path of all khazeh Only the Word of God can unite not Ruhi as Ruhi... [or I am mistaken] *** Consider the flowers of a garden. Though differing in kind, color, form and shape, yet, inasmuch as they are refreshed by the waters of one spring, revived by the breath of one wind, invigorated by the rays of one sun, this diversity increaseth their charm and addeth unto their beauty. How unpleasing to the eye if all the flowers and plants, the leaves and blossoms, the fruit, the branches and the trees of that garden were all of the same shape and color! Diversity of hues, form and shape enricheth and adorneth the garden, and heighteneth the effect thereof. In like manner, when divers shades of thought, temperament and character, are brought together under the power and influence of one central agency, the beauty and glory of human perfection will be revealed and made manifest. NAUGHT BUT THE CELESTIAL POTENCY OF THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH RULETH AND TRANSCENDETH THE REALITIES OF ALL THINGS, IS CAPABLE OF HARMONIZING THE DIVERGENT THOUGHTS, SENTIMENTS, IDEAS AND CONVICTIONS OF THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 42)***[emphasis added] sure. lets all get down to a sceptical approach and throw away all trust and faith. do you know Paul Lample personally or anybody on the ruhi institute in colombia? Maybe then the world will change you have to be careful. Because this post in my opinion is slanderous. janine van rooij dublin, ireland --- Steve Cooney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process. It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected institution. Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there are also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials. And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach. Cheers, Steve Cooney. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public -
RE: ruhi in ireland
What is a fireside? Getting a couple of friends together and talk about the Bahai faith. Dear Janine, When the Guardian said it was the best teaching method he gave as his reason that it allows the seeker to ask all of the questions in their hearts. What did it turn into? official talks about peoples *opinion* what the Bahai faith is. I have heard very few quotes studied in a fireside. I'm not so sure how necessary it is to study quotes at firesides, but individual pontificating is not the best idea either. As the Guardian suggested a fireside should focus on the seeker. In most communities seekers who were ready to study the Writings in more depth were more than welcome at deepenings. When Shoghi Effendi was alive the Bahai community was much smaller. The UHJ has given us the institute process whihc is offering study circles, childrens classes and devotionals to the community at large. So far as I know Institutes don't offer us children's classes or devotionals, just study circles. ;-} But I agree that the closer we get to entry by troops the less serviceable traditional firesides are likely to become. That is because firesides are really only effective with people we know and to have entry by troops we have to bring in those we don't know. And one thing that was learned from the media campaign is that seekers don't want to come to meetings at the homes of strangers. And the first meeting they expect to attend is a worship service. Until we began devotional meetings we didn't have any of those to offer. But those devotional meetings may not do us any good in terms of increasing our numbers unless we hold them at Baha'i Centers. Right now the emphasis is on 'multiplying' such meetings. If that means holding them more frequently and regularly, well and good. But if it means we divide our resources so that we are having lots of little meetings at individuals homes, I think it will be self-defeating. Seekers want to attend worship services at neutral venues. If I offer the ruhi book 1 to a friend, I will ask for feedback of that friend, and if the friend is not happy with the method, I will ask what she feels about the quotes. If she is happy with the quotes, I will ask her if she wants to learn more about the Bahai writings, and then work out a system wherewith she can study the writings. I assumed everybody would do that, but it occurred just now to me that maybe some people do not do this... It strikes me that you are using the 'fireside method' recommended by the Guardian, namely answering the questions in the seeker's own heart. But I think the Ruhi method is very different. ;-} It is interesting that you and I have such a different experience with the books themselves. Except you apparently did have the same reaction when you read these books. Wasn't it the Study Circles themselves which changed your opinion. Book 3 has a certain view on how to treat children, which is very much in alignment with my view, so i had not muchproblems there, but that is the only book I can remember that strongly focussed on the interpretation of the editors of the writings (in this case, on how to treat children). My recollection is that section 2 of Book One had very little to do with anything from authoritative texts. That is okay, and I cannot see any objection you asking your community for support in setting up something for your friends. Well, I did complain about the fact that Ruhi was taking up so much of the community's time that firesides had disappeared. Which was a problem, because I usually have plenty of seekers to bring. After I said that they did start having firesides once again more regularly. It is there, it has been tested for 20 years. I wish the testing had been a little more scientific with some equivalent to double-blinds. I am so happy to have the internet, because that means I can go even international now and work on different levels: mystical, intellectual and the mainstream Bahai. Yeah, it has been important to me this way as well. Most of the things I talk about here would elicit nothing but glazed-eyed stares in my local community. the kind of deepening I would like woudl include facts from how the culture was Baha'u'llah grew up in, a closer look at the hadiths He uses, but it also would include things like: how do you keep independence of thought and at the same time have unity with the other Bahais around you? How does the process of unity in diversity work? How does a person view the world, think, etc. who is able to form bonds with many diverse people and show kindness and love to them all? What is love? How can you stay loving to one who has really hurt you? And how do we balance truth with wisdom without compromising our integrity? The more peopel become Bahai, the more we will find people who share the same interests and with whom we can go very indepth on certain issues. Yeah, I guess part of my fears about Ruhi is that it will produce cookie-cutter
Re: ruhi in ireland
Janine, At 10:31 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote: and it is too fundamentalistic in approach. You hit on one of my pet peeves. The Ruhi method, as I have seen it conducted (and as I have heard from most other people), *is*, IMO, fundamentalist, and I am concerned it is being promoted by the International Teaching Center and the Continental Counsellors. As I have said before, I hope that the ITC is not morphing into something like the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
Hi Mark, Oh dear. This could easily end in a pro-contra ruhi debate. When I hear objections to things I always want to try to assess how much of these objections are based in truth. The same when I hear glorification of things. how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one? I want to ask you something but I do not want to say this on a public forum. Can I email you privately? much love, janine "Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Janine,At 10:31 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote:and it is too fundamentalistic in approach.You hit on one of my pet peeves. The Ruhi method, as I have seen it conducted (and as I have heard from most other people), *is*, IMO, fundamentalist, and I am concerned it is being promoted by the International Teaching Center and the Continental Counsellors. As I have said before, I hope that the ITC is not morphing into something like the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscri! be bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The same when I hear glorification of things. how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one? Dear Janine, If most people are being turned off by Book One such that they are not continuing with the program, might that not suggest a basic flaw in the material? Book One should be designed in such a way as to draw people into the process, I would think. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
Hi Susan, well, I am not sure that most people are turned off by book one here in Ireland for a start. I am sure that a lot of people who are bahais for a while initially have a bias against book one, until the method is explained to them. and why the repetition is. That is so in Europe, that is so in Ireland. What I am suspecting from being on the internet and being exposed to the english sections of the internet having a huge representation of people from the USA, also Bahai lists etc. is that because the USA is such a vast country with one major official language, which has never been invaded by another country and where if people go to Canada they still are exposed to the same language and the same food and the same cultural background, there is a great possibility that people take what they see in their surroundings as being world wide the case, the truth and forget to subject their conclusions to critical examination. It is easy to reject something new when it does not conform with your ideas. However, when it starts to have positive results it is difficult to reject it again. I feel I have the right to say this. The culture in Ireland is vastly different from the culture in the Netherlands or even the culture of New Zealand, where I lived for nine months. I grew up in the Netherlands. I moved to Ireland 7 years ago. I had a big culture shock there and was inclined to criticise and reject all things not in accordance with my culture. But you know what? there is a lot of good in the Irish approach as well. That is what I have discovered. And I am wondering if this cannot be said of Ruhi. That we are used to do things in a certain way and are thrown and prone to reject it when a new way of doing things is offered to us. Especially if we live in a culture, like i get the feeling the USA has as one mainstream subculture, which rejects academic learning and academic approach. much love, janine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The same when I hear glorification of things. how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one? Dear Janine, If most people are being turned off by Book One such that they are not continuing with the program, might that not suggest a basic flaw in the material? Book One should be designed in such a way as to draw people into the process, I would think. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland, addition.
I forgot one thing. I want to ask you all, both in favour and those not in favour of ruhi, how sure you are you are objective, you follow the tablet of the true seeker in this and how ready you are to throw preconceived ideas and notions overboard. It is a question I invite you to ask yourself. My sole aim in life has always been to find out as much as I can about truth. I am in the habit of looking critically at my own opinions regularly, and hold them in the light of the writings as I understand them, in the hope that I may see more truth. And it is also in that motivation that I asked the question at the beginning of this paragraph, because some of you may not have thought of doing this before. We all are prone to take our view for granted and take that which confirms our view as truth, and overlooking that which may point out that it is not totally truth. my present stance with ruhi is: first at last people get together in greater number to focus together on the texts of the bahai faith. Hurray! at last a little bit of what I have been craving for is happening: sharing ideas and interpretations. And people getting into the habit of reading the writings and thinking for themselves. Because that is what I have seen happening. I was appalled again at the lack of knowledge, basic factual knowledge, by bahais of many years, and those who were reared in the Bahai faith, and the amount of kitab-i-hearsay. At least Ruhi is doing something about that. second: i have not seen yetevidence that it creates a fundamentalistic approach. I have not yet seen great success in Ireland either (don't know about other western countries). I have not yet seen that it discourages people from arriving at their own interpretation of the writings. So I am willing to give it a couple of years, and see where it will bring the Bahai community, both locally, nationally and internationally. much love, janine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:37:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The same when I hear glorification of things. how many people OUTSIDE the USA do you know who have gone through the ruhi books, who have done more than one? Dear Janine, If most people are being turned off by Book One such that they are not continuing with the program, might that not suggest a basic flaw in the material? Book One should be designed in such a way as to draw people into the process, I would think. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! What will yours do? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Chuckle! No Ruhi is not academic. I omitted something there. What I intended was: if you live in a culture whihc has a strong subculture of anti-intellectualism and then a method is introduced which is not appealing to the intellect, it can create a strong bias against that method. You say it is not working in the USA. Apparently the institutions has not yet picked up on that. However, they will. And if it is not working, then they will design something else. Abdu'l-Baha promises us that if we support a decision made in unison, even if it is a wrong one, the result is that truth will be shown. My intellect strongly reacted against that when I read it for the first time. It went against all I had learned and be taught. Yet something else in me thinks this is true. Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have stopped, or at least for a while. The institute process is all about offering three things to the people outside our Bahai community: childrens classes, study circles and deepenings. And to me I think these are far more in line with what western culture need now than firesides, even though Shoghi Effendi encouraged us to hold firesides. The way I see it is that at this moment we are gearing up to build channels by which entry by troops can become a reality. Everybody is busy doing the books now, and that means that temporarily other things are abandoned, but does not necessarily mean it is abandoned forever. People in Ireland picked up far more quickly on the ruhi programs, not because we are better but because the facilitators and coordinators had learned from the experiences withthe resistance against ruhi in other western countries. Theycame prepared and were able to come up with an approach which circumvented and had a good answer to this resistence. I think in the USA at least two years have been lost because people had to get over their resistence, and because of the clumsiness of the facillitators, who interpreted the method very narrowly and did not give it the wide scope I feel it has. Yet, that is but an opinion. I may miss the mark completely. I still find it amazing that I was so against it and am now seeing a lot of benefits in it. I still would love an intense deepening though with a group of people who not only have deep intellectual knowledge, but who understand spiritucal values and processes very well.Peoplewith knowledge on all levels. Is that called irfan in Arabic? much love, janineSusan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: " What I am suspecting from being on the internet and being exposed to theenglish sections of the internet having a huge representation of people fromthe USA, also Bahai lists etc. is that because the USA is such a vastcountry with one major official language, which has never been invaded byanother country and where if people go to Canada they still are exposed tothe same language and the same food and the same cultural background, thereis a great possibility that people take what they see in their surroundingsas being world wide the case, the truth and forget to subject theirconclusions to critical examination."Dear Janine,Actually, I recognize that Ruhi may well be the most appropriate program forthose countries and areas where people have a history of being attracted tomass teaching efforts but consolidation has been difficult. These aretypically underdeveloped countries with limited literacy skilss and whererote learning is the predominant pedagogy in any case. Ruhi seems quiteappropriate there, at least in the rural sectors. It is much less successfulin urban areas among adult Baha'is, even there. I agree with you that theproblems with Ruhi here may well stem from the fact it conflicts withAmerican culture and educational ideals. I guess my question then is, whynot develope study circle materials more in keeping with our own culture?You wrote:"It is easy to reject something new when it does not conform with yourideas. However, when it starts to have positive results it is difficult toreject it again."True. And if Ruhi does lead to growth in substantial areas of the US I wouldcertainly be prepared to withdraw any objections I personally have. So far,I know of only one area in Florida where it seems to be working. In otherplaces, rather than increasing human resources, it seems to be using themup. Nearly all other forms of deepening have ground down to a standstill andthere is less time for firesides and other teaching activities."Especially if we live in a culture, like i get the feeling the USA has asone mainstream subculture, which rejects academic learning and academicapproach."There is indeed an anti-intellectual strand in American culture which inturn is reflected in the Baha'i community. But Ruhi is hardly what I wouldcall 'academic.' In fact I fear it will reinforce the anti-intellectual biasin the Baha'i community.warmest, Susan__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL
RE: ruhi in ireland
What I intended was: if you live in a culture whihc has a strong subculture of anti-intellectualism and then a method is introduced which is not appealing to the intellect, it can create a strong bias against that method. Dear Janine, Ah yes, then we are on the same wave length. In fact I was just thinking about just how visceral my reaction to Ruhi was; that I open the book and almost feel it shouting at me, We don't want you to think! But my experience of this material is probably shaped, at least in part, by the anti-intellectualism I've seen in the community at large. You say it is not working in the USA. Apparently the institutions has not yet picked up on that. However, they will. And if it is not working, then they will design something else. Abdu'l-Baha promises us that if we support a decision made in unison, even if it is a wrong one, the result is that truth will be shown. If I recall correctly the passage you are alluding to, I think it is one which has been misused a lot. Wasn't Abdu'l-Baha talking more about Assembly members all getting behind a decision that the majority agreed upon rather than so much the community at large? In other words we are talking about a situation where each Assembly member got their say before the decision in question was made. I think the frustration a lot of us feel is over the fact that we were never part of the consultative process which decided on Ruhi material to begin with. In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process. It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected institution. Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have stopped, or at least for a while. The institute process is all about offering three things to the people outside our Bahai community: childrens classes, study circles and deepenings. And to me I think these are far more in line with what western culture need now than firesides, even though Shoghi Effendi encouraged us to hold firesides. He didn't just encourage it, he said it was the *best* teaching method. And I can't bring myself to introduce most of my friends to the Baha'i Faith through study circles. You mentioned how close its methods are to the Jehovah Witnesses. That is going to be the most striking thing to a visitor. I remember attending a Kingdom Hall meeting as a child and watching them use that method, thinking to myself that JWs weren't allowed to think. I never went back. The way I see it is that at this moment we are gearing up to build channels by which entry by troops can become a reality. Everybody is busy doing the books now, and that means that temporarily other things are abandoned, but does not necessarily mean it is abandoned forever. Yeah, but we keep talking about 'multiplying' these activies which suggest to me that even when we are finished we just start the whole thing over again, which again, takes up all our resources. I think in the USA at least two years have been lost because people had to get over their resistence, and because of the clumsiness of the facillitators, who interpreted the method very narrowly and did not give it the wide scope I feel it has. I have to say as a whole I find the facilitators in the US more flexible than the material itself seems to be. I still would love an intense deepening though with a group of people who not only have deep intellectual knowledge, but who understand spiritucal values and processes very well. People with knowledge on all levels. Is that called irfan in Arabic? It can be, though irfan tends to be more narrowly focused on mystical matters. I think the kind of deepening you are talking about is what a lot of us yearn for and maybe one of the reasons we find Ruhi so frustrating. Those of us who have been Baha'is for thirty-some years keep looking for something more, and we can't find it in our local communities. And the materials which come from above seem get more and more simplistic over time. But to be fair to Ruhi, its aim is to develop resources, not deepen. They didn't come up with a bunch of quotes they decided all Baha'is should know. They came up with what they wanted us to *do* and then found the quotes to match it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ruhi in ireland
In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:21:51 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe it is a good thing that firesides have stopped, The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S. that the institute process should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it is, then attitudes need adjustment to comply with the guidance on the issue. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
The NSA has made cleaqr over and over in the U.S. that the institute process should NOT make firesides and deepenings stop. If it is, then attitudes need adjustment to comply with the guidance on the issue. Dear Scott, I don't think it is a matter of 'attitude' it is a matter of energy. There is only so much of it to go around and right now that energy is being expended on Ruhi, leaving little time for firesides and deepenings. That being the case though, I have to question the extent to which Ruhi reaches its goal of increasing human resources? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
Dear Scott, What Abdu'l-Baha was trying to do was make sure that individual Assembly members did not undermine the authority of the institution as a whole by opposing the decision that body made. For them not to act in unity under these circumstances is rather like parents arguing discipline issues in front of their children--almost never a good idea if discipline is something the parents hope to maintain. I think the problem with over-generalizing that quotation from Abdu'l-Baha and applying it to the community as a whole rather than the individual members of the Assembly that made the decision is that it prevents the Assembly from getting the feedback it requires to determine whether or not something they implemented is working so they *can* change it if need be. If the believers 'for the sake of unity' feel they can't say what this isn't working corrections will never be made. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ruhi in ireland
In fact, even our NSA seems to have largely been shut out of the process. It mostly came down from the ITC, which as you know, is not an elected institution. Yes, this is one of the difficulties I find and that is that one of the principal publishers of the Ruhi materials is Palabra Publications which is associated with Paul Lample who is one of the staunchest supporters and promoters of the Study Circle engine on the ITC. I wonder too if there are royalty arrangements with the Ruhi Institute in Cali Colombia. And there are also tie ups with Development Learning Press etc etc with other materials. And there is definitely a Farzam Arbab connection there, who is another strong evangelist. I wish they, whoever they is, would put the Ruhi curriculum materials in the public domain in a digital format and put any potential real or imagined conflict of interest beyond reproach. Cheers, Steve Cooney. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi in Thailand
But personally I did not enjoy the SC method of Teaching the Faith. Dear Firouz, Don't confuse Ruhi with Study Circles per se. Ruhi is just the curriculum which has been adopted in most areas for Study Circles. Once when I disagreed about a given comment in one of the Ruhi books, I was sort of warned by an ABM telling me that all the material in Ruhi books have been approved by the Universal House of Justice and hence we cannot disagree with them. Boy, that is just wrong. The Universal House of Justice, while applauding the success which Ruhi has enjoyed has made it quite clear that it is not their policy to endorse any particular curriculum. Once I remarked this to one of the counselors visiting Thailand and I was told that in future there will be specific and new Ruhi materials specially designed for special needs of Buddhism, etc. But for now I was told that we should stick to books 1 - 7 that we have. Well, your Counsellor at least is more sensible than you ABM! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question I would ask is how does "thinking about the implications of the Writings" differ from "personal interpretation"? Seems to be the same question I asked myself, and the conclusion I drew was that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to supersede what the Writings say about reading the revelations and meditating upon them. Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings TELL us to do. Yet the Ruhi editors seem to think otherwise. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:22:04 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem is that they appear to make an exception with their own comments. Which is precisely what has always perturbed me with reading Ruhi method material. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:45:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that many are willing to take what the editors say at face value. Well, that certainly happens, and at times tutors encourage it. When one participant noted that no source was given to support the assertion that the Writings said something or other, the tutor insisted it must be right because the House of Justice had approved of these materials. Similarly, when I suggested to a Board Member that Ruhi be revised by removing pilgrim's notes and not asking close-ended questions that expected the reader to parrot back editorial opinions (as opposed to scriptural texts) I was told that the World Centre found the material fine as it was and that therefore we shouldn't mess with it. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
Scott, Ruhi wrote: We believe that the simple habit of thinking about the implications of the Writings with the minimum of personal interpretation would eliminate a great share of the disagreements that afflict consultation in many communities, You replied to Ruhi: In other words the opinions of the Ruhi editors supersede the Scripture itself? The question I would ask is how does thinking about the implications of the Writings differ from personal interpretation? Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Ruhi, Ruhi Method Rigidity
Tutor: I don't think any of the ideas you have described is wrong or undesirable in principle. The problem is .that referring to them as elements of a Ruhi method introduces rigidity into a process that is otherwise simple, joyful, and sensitive to a diversity of needs. For example, you all remember that at the beginning of Book I, a technique is used whereby the participants ask simple questions of one another. The use of this technique has a clear purpose, which is to help the participants focus on Baha'i text, But once such a habit is created, why would one continue to employ a technique that can easily become mechanical. Of course, there might be occasions now and then in other units when the technique is useful, but it should certainly not be called the Ruhi method. What is more, it is not necessary to ask everyone to repeat the same question one after another, which would naturally only annoy them. Usually after one or two repetitions, the purpose of the exercise is achieved. (Ruhi, Book 7) I think this is an example of participants bringing ridigity into a more flexible process; most of the Ruhi tutors I've met have not permitted this flexibility, but have stuck with the technique that annoys after over-use. I know a person who is approaching professional people and using the Ruhi books as a basis for discussion, with success. The non-Baha'i professionals like the structure and content, and the flexible and more intuitive approach to the materials is maintaining keen interest. I remember when the instructions came from the World Centre to determine the boundaries of clusters. Everybody I knew started adding complexity to the process and got it wrong except Counsellor Huerta, who saw it clearly from the start. These quotes are very helpful, thanks Max. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
That is not true! One cannot fail to meditate on the writings after going through the sequence. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:41 PM Subject: Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question I would ask is how does thinking about the implications of the Writings differ from personal interpretation? Seems to be the same question I asked myself, and the conclusion I drew was that the Ruhi editors opinion (personal interpretation) is supposed to supersede what the Writings say about reading the revelations and meditating upon them. Reading the text and meditating on the text is what the writings TELL us to do. Yet the Ruhi editors seem to think otherwise. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:38:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott, It may be tempting to believe this, but I'm sure it is not what the editors think they are doing. I am sure it isn't what they think they are saying, but I think that is also symptomatic of elevating one's own interpretation to a level higher than it should have. I read their words, and I see this meaning to it. I think that many are willing to take what the editors say at face value. I do not think it is sinister, but I think it is a significant flaw. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi and reading the Writings
Brent, At 06:50 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote: Because the feedback process is extremely valuable. It moves a group from theory into actuality. It is an established part of good planning -- evaluate how you're doing. Sure, but you are giving me a technical response, while I have been objecting to the entire paradigm. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi and reading the Writings
My impression of the Ruhi Institute in Colombia which created the Ruhi materials, is that they excelled at this. I'm not talking about putting much stock in the random impressions of one person. I'm talking about a methodology of soliciting feedback and accomplishments on a broad basis. The Ruhi materials underwent a lot of changes based on feedback from thousands of people. Things were removed, things were inserted, for a good reason. Dear Brent, I've talked to people who were familiar with the results in Latin America and it strikes me that they found the results as much more mixed than it is sometimes presented. For instance, it worked much better among indigenous, semi-literate populations and among the youth, much more than it did among educated, urban adults. Yet rather than develope material for that population we seem stuck on one size fits all. I wonder how well this is going to work given that A clusters are typically urban centers with a high rate of activity long before Ruhi hit the scene? Yes, they've all have a sizable number of people who have done Ruhi or they wouldn't be A clusters, active communities tend to do what they are told. The question is, how effective will it really be as an outreach technique for other urban, educated adults? 2. Surely the 'Ruhi method' does not exclude other study? I think that what has happened is some going overboard. I was in the Holy Land earlier this year and spoke to an eminent believer who agreed with me that the pendulum had swung too far, but that this would be worked out. He mentioned that the House of Justice had certainly not said a word that would discourage the holding of firesides; but some of the friends somehow took it that way. By the time folks get to Book 6, they are certainly going to know that is wrong. But, as I mentioned before other deepenings have been actively suppressed in some parts of the world in order to concentrate on Ruhi. I think it all boils down to the fact that there is only so much time to be had, and Ruhi is taking the slot that might otherwise be used for firesides and other kinds of deepenings. the idea was, (I think) to provide something that everybody would in some measure benefit from. The question is does everybody? And is it really possible to have a one-size-fits-all program which does? I some ways I really think it's succeeded, because whether by attraction or by cajoling from some of the participants, more Baha'is are actively involved in Ruhi programs than any other activity I've seen in the 30+ years I've been a Baha'i. Yet enrollments continue to decline. As far as the criticism that Ruhi does not train people to approach the Writings with critical thinking. I would appreciate a definition of critical thinking here, before I spout off. How about this? Critical thinking is the disciplined ability and willingness to assess evidence and claims, to seek a breadth of contradicting as well as confirming information, to make objective judgments on the basis of well supported reasons as a guide to belief and action. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:40:18 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We believe that the simple habit of thinking about the implications of the Writings with the minimum of personal interpretation would eliminate a great share of the disagreements that afflict consultation in many communities, In other words the opinions of the Ruhi editors supersede the Scripture itself? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Prolonged Discussions
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:40:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The experience of the Ruhi Institute has shown that we do not suppress the imagination or the personality of the participants How have they determined they aren't doing this? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Participation, Political Manipulation
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:45:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Ruhi Institute, following the ideas presented in the previousparagraphs, asserts that effective participation which will not easilydegenerate into political manipulation requires a systematic learningprocess within each community and region so that the community itselfexperiments with new ideas, new methods, and new technologies andprocedures, rather than being the object of the social experimentation ofothers. I would have thought of Ruhi as a type of social experimentation by others. It is not like each community came up with it on its own. What do you think this means, Max? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Transitory Motivation, An Example
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:48:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would like to invite you to join a study circle we have recentlyestablished in our community. There are already twelve people in our group,and I am sure you will like every one of them. We have a great deal of funtogether. We study twice a week for a couple of hours but also engage inother activities. This Saturday, for example, we will have a picnic, towhich you are most welcome, and some of us are thinking of forming afootball team. Uh, the point of this passage is? Max, I'm not sure it is real helpful to put these up without any comment of your own. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Not Possible when Tutor is Arrogant
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:08:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why you put too messages against Ruhi program? Huh? Other than that cartoon, Max has been posting nothing but quotations from Ruhi materials. The functions of the tutor are clearand the program is quite good to face the actual problems. If the Ruhi is so bad as you try to say (with you several messages), I don't think the Bah World adopted it. Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the semi-literate as I have suggested? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Not Possible when Tutor is Arrogant
Huh? Other than that cartoon, Max has been posting nothing but quotations from Ruhi materials. Sorry Max if so, I don't knowthose materials. Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the semi-literate as I have suggested? Yes, when weapply it, not when we don't. "...religious truth is not absolute but relative..." Shoghi EffendiDo You Yahoo!? Todo lo que quieres saber de Estados Unidos, América Latina y el resto del Mundo. Visíta Yahoo! Noticias. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi, Not Possible when Tutor is Arrogant
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:22:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has itbeen effective among older, educated believers in urban areas in Peru, Hasan? Or does it work better among the young and the semi-literate as I have suggested? Yes, when weapply it, not when we don't. Dear Hasan, I'm not sure that answers my question. If there is resistance to applying it, isn't that a sign that it isn't working for some people? For instance in the US most of us have a built-in revulsion to rote-learning, henceour resistance. Might that signify that a different approach might be more appropriate to our population? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
