Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[via Bikies]

Hahaha!  http://organictransit.com/
(Too big for the bikeway.)

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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Jym Dyer via Bikies]

Quoting Robert Schultz:
> it could be that population is more educated about the laws
> regarding motorized bicycles than the average traditional
> cyclist in the same way that traditional cyclists are more
> knowledgeable about cycling laws than motorists are, even
> though both bicycles and cars are legally vehicles.

=v= I've seen no evidence of that.  Bicyclists, sure, at least
those of us involved in advocacy, may have taken some sort of
certified instruction and/or have had to argue with motorists,
police, and John Forester for a few decades.  But I know of no
such educational efforts that come with e-gadgets, aside from
salespeople asserting that they're legal to use everywhere.

=v= Since the specific offense we're talking about here is
speeding, I'm afraid I can't share any optimism about that.
I've already mentioned the disconnect between gadget speed
and facilities engineering in California, but overall it's
an epidemic across the country regardless of transportation
mode.  There is absolutely no reason to believe that suddenly
a new population of road users will decide not to speed.
(Oh, and those salespeople I mentioned in the last paragraph
will casually mention illegal upgrades that will make your
gadget go even faster.)

=v= This has become a problem even in Amsterdam.  Since the
main technical advance in recent years is motors that can
now be hidden, the police have had to resort to checkpoints
on cycletracks in which they take a motor-powered bike and
put it on a roller to see how fast it can go.
<_Jym_>
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Re: [Bikies] Bikies Digest, Vol 93, Issue 7

[Darryl Jordan via Bikies]

;
> Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
> charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>
>
> Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
> http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx
>
> How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey
>
>
>
>
> From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Brian Mink via Bikies
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
> To: rpaol...@execpc.com
> Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health 
> Benefits of an Electric Bike
>
> I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than 
> optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes 
> or wheels with hub motors.
>
> I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using 
> electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid 
> hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.
>
> I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core 
> enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric 
> assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so 
> based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places 
> don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one 
> below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.
>
> I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do 
> have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
> remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules 
> and post them? Probably.
>
> Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into 
> the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll 
> look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion 
> that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.
>
> Brian Mink
> Monona
>
>
> via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
>
> If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
>
> them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
>
> 
>
> Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
>
> on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
>
> > By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
>
>
>
> I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
>
> someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
>
> But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
>
> discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
>
> electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
>
> thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is
>
> not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.
>
>
>
> As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
>
> so what? If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
>
> capability, what's wrong with that?
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Bikies mailing list
>
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org<mailto:Bikies@lists.danenet.org>
>
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
> --
> Sent from 
> Postbox<https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email_medium=siglink_campaign=reach>
>
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> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org

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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:26:37 -0500
From: William Hauda via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org>
To: bikies@lists.danenet.org
Subject: Re: [Bikies] FW: NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising
    Health Benefits of an Electric Bike
Message-ID: <0f7adb20-9333-8092-2a12-fc212d957...@hughes.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"

    The complete text of state law as it impacts E-bikes (346.79 (5) is 
the critical item):

Electric bicycles in Wisconsin are defined as motor bicycles.  Motor 
bicycle operators are required to have a valid driver?s license.  Motor 
bicycles cannot be used o

Re: [Bikies] Bikies Digest, Vol 93, Issue 7

[Robert Schultz via Bikies]

t; >
> >
> > Chuck Strawser via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> > July 8, 2016 at 10:14 AM
> > Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow
> > electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to
> > maximum speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should
> > Madison have such rules and post them? Probably."
> >
> > Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the
> > wayfinding signs along bike paths all around town, and among those
> > rules is this one:
> > "Faster {path] users yield to slower users"
> >
> > Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their
> > vehicle is often as important (or more important) to the safety of
> > others than exactly what kind of vehicle it is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chuck Strawser
> > Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
> > Commuter Solutions
> > UW-Madison Transportation Services
> >
> > Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is
> > charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>
> >
> > Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White:
> > http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx
> >
> > How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at
> > https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of
> > Brian Mink via Bikies
> > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
> > To: rpaol...@execpc.com
> > Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
> > Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health
> > Benefits of an Electric Bike
> >
> > I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than
> > optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes
> > or wheels with hub motors.
> >
> > I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using
> > electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid
> > hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.
> >
> > I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core
> > enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric
> > assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so
> > based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places
> > don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one
> > below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.
> >
> > I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do
> > have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing,
> > remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules
> > and post them? Probably.
> >
> > Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into
> > the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll
> > look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion
> > that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.
> >
> > Brian Mink
> > Monona
> >
> >
> > via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> > July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
> >
> > If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
> >
> > them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
> >
> > on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
> >
> > > By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
> >
> >
> >
> > I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one
> when
> >
> > someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
> >
> > But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
> >
> > discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on
> an
> >
> > electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
> >
> > thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is
> >
> > not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.
> >
> >
> >
> > As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
> >
> > so what? If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
> >
> > capability, what's wrong with that?
> >

Re: [Bikies] FW: NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[William Hauda via Bikies]

The complete text of state law as it impacts E-bikes (346.79 (5) is 
the critical item):


Electric bicycles in Wisconsin are defined as motor bicycles.   Motor 
bicycle operators are required to have a valid driver’s license.  Motor 
bicycles cannot be used on bike paths unless they are being operated 
solely by pedal power, like a bike. When operating you also need to 
follow the rules of the road. Here are the relevant state statutes.


*340.01 (30) 
*Motor 
bicycle means any of the following:


(a) A bicycle to which a power unit not an integral part of the vehicle 
has been added to permit the vehicle to travel at a speed of not more 
than 30 miles per hour with a 150-pound rider on a dry, level, hard 
surface with no wind and having a seat for the operator.


(b) A 2-wheeled or 3-wheeled vehicle that has fully operative pedals for 
propulsion by human power and an electric motor of less than 750 watts 
and that is capable, when powered solely by the motor, of a maximum 
speed of less than 20 miles per hour with a 170-pound rider on a dry, 
level, hard surface with no wind.


*343.05(3)(c) 
Operators 
to be licensed; exceptions.*


*(3)***NONCOMMERCIAL VEHICLES

(c) No person may operate a moped or motor bicycle unless the person 
possesses a valid operators license or a special restricted operators 
license issued under s. 343.135 or a restricted license issued under s. 
343.08. A license under this paragraph does not authorize operation of a 
moped or motor bicycle if the license is revoked, suspended, canceled or 
expired.


*346.02(4) Applicability to persons riding bicycles and motor 
bicycles.*


**

*(a)*Subject to the special provisions applicable to bicycles, every 
person riding a bicycle upon a roadway or shoulder of a highway is 
granted all the rights and is subject to all the duties which this 
chapter grants or applies to the operator of a vehicle, except those 
provisions which by their express terms apply only to motor vehicles or 
which by their very nature would have no application to bicycles. For 
purposes of this chapter, provisions which apply to bicycles also apply 
to motor bicycles, except as otherwise expressly provided.


**

*(b)*Provisions which apply to the operation of bicycles in crosswalks 
under ss. 346.23 
, 346.24 
, 346.37 
(1) (a) 2. 
, 
(c) 
 
2 and (d) 2. 
 
and 346.38 
 do not 
apply to motor bicycles.


*346.79 
Special 
rules applicable to bicycles.*


*(5)***No person may ride a moped or motor bicycle with the power unit 
in operation upon a bicycle way.


**

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Re: [Bikies] FW: NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

Strikes me as primarily an education versus an enforcement issue. I 
queried a group of cyclists via email about their knowledge of the 
rules/laws that Chuck and Bill reference and to a person not one in 10 
of these life long cyclists were familiar with the Wisconsin Law 
governing electric bikes.


Brian Mink
Monona, WI


William Hauda via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 11:09 AM
Make that 28 mph on Speed Pedelecs. But I'm certain there are 
people working on faster speeds. It's human nature.






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William Hauda via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 11:05 AM
Currently Wisconsin state law prohibits use of E-bikes on bike 
ways with the motor engaged. That is Madison's policy also. There is a 
question whether the restrictions apply to state trails and the 
Nonmotorized Recreation and Transportation Trails Council is currently 
exploring options. Two major states have tried to tackle this. 
California early this year enacted legislation creating classes of 
E-bikes with rules on how each class can be used. In New York, the 
effort got sidetracked because of a single legislator who chairs the 
transportation committee. The problem we are dealing with in Wisconsin 
is the emerging Speed Pedelec technology. These bikes, popular in 
Europe, are capable of 38 mph. Our concern is that mixing electric 
assisted bikes with all of the other nonmotorized users of the trails 
(like walkers, roller bladers, runners and bicyclists) creates a 
dangerous mix. How to avoid that is the goal of NRTTC. Enforcement of 
speed limits is problematic. Can you tell whether a motor is engaged? 
Probably not because electric motors are silent. While DNR does have 
some radar certified employees they don't have enough staff to handle 
the daily chores, let alone run speed traps. So it's a complex issue 
and we on the NRTTC are working on it.


Bill Hauda, bicycling representative, NRTTC





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Chuck Strawser via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM
Brian and I exhanged emails off-list, and then he agreed that it was 
worth sharing that exchange to the list. It's copied below.

chuck


From: Chuck Strawser
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:35 AM
To: 'Brian Mink'
Subject: RE: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health 
Benefits of an Electric Bike


Brian,

There are also already state rules in place that define "motor 
bicycles" as those going less than 20mph, and even those are not 
allowed to be used on bike paths *under power* (you can pedal them 
unassisted on paths). See state statute below, and also the useful 
page from the city's website.


So the trike that passed you at 35mph was already in violation of the 
rules, and does not meet the state definition of a "motor bicycle" 
(and is therefore not legal on streets, either).


But like every other law, it's meaningless unless it's enforced.
Look at the posted speed limits (for motor vehicles). How many people 
are ticketed for driving 40mph on the sections of University Ave that 
are signed 25mph?


Since you replied to me only, I won't post this on the list-serv 
without asking you. I think it's relevant to the discussion, so you 
might consider posting it (and my response) yourself.


State Statute 340.01(30) defines a "motor bicycle":
http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/340.pdf
340.01(30) "Motor bicycle" means any of the following:
(a) A bicycle to which a power unit not an integral part of the 
vehicle has been added to permit the vehicle to travel at a speed of 
not more than 30 miles per hour with a 150-pound rider on a dry, 
level, hard surface with no wind and having a seat for the operator.
(b) A 2-wheeled or 3-wheeled vehicle that has fully operative pedals 
for propulsion by human power and an electric motor of less than 750 
watts and that is capable, when powered solely by the motor, of a 
maximum speed of less than 20 miles per hour with a 170-pound rider on 
a dry, level, hard surface with no wind.


Here's a useful page from the city's website. Although this page makes 
no mention of bikes with something other than an electric motor, all 
the prohibitions on using an electric bicycle also apply to motor 
bicycles with gas engines.

http://www.cityofmadison.com/trafficEngineering/documents/ElecBikeLawsWeb20130520v.pdf

Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services

Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
charles.straw...@wisc.edu


Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 

Re: [Bikies] FW: NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[William Hauda via Bikies]

Make that 28 mph on Speed Pedelecs. But I'm certain there are 
people working on faster speeds. It's human nature.



On 7/8/2016 11:05 AM, William Hauda via Bikies wrote:


Currently Wisconsin state law prohibits use of E-bikes on bike 
ways with the motor engaged. That is Madison's policy also. There is a 
question whether the restrictions apply to state trails and the 
Nonmotorized Recreation and Transportation Trails Council is currently 
exploring options. Two major states have tried to tackle this. 
California early this year enacted legislation creating classes of 
E-bikes with rules on how each class can be used. In New York, the 
effort got sidetracked because of a single legislator who chairs the 
transportation committee. The problem we are dealing with in Wisconsin 
is the emerging Speed Pedelec technology. These bikes, popular in 
Europe, are capable of 38 mph. Our concern is that mixing electric 
assisted bikes with all of the other nonmotorized users of the trails 
(like walkers, roller bladers, runners and bicyclists) creates a 
dangerous mix. How to avoid that is the goal of NRTTC. Enforcement of 
speed limits is problematic. Can you tell whether a motor is engaged? 
Probably not because electric motors are silent. While DNR does have 
some radar certified employees they don't have enough staff to handle 
the daily chores, let alone run speed traps. So it's a complex issue 
and we on the NRTTC are working on it.


Bill Hauda, bicycling representative, NRTTC


On 7/8/2016 10:42 AM, Chuck Strawser via Bikies wrote:


Brian and I exhanged emails off-list, and then he agreed that it was 
worth sharing that exchange to the list. It’s copied below.


chuck

*From:*Chuck Strawser
*Sent:* Friday, July 08, 2016 10:35 AM
*To:* 'Brian Mink'
*Subject:* RE: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising 
Health Benefits of an Electric Bike


Brian,

There are also already state rules in place that define “motor 
bicycles” as those going less than 20mph, and even those are not 
allowed to be used on bike paths **under power** (you can pedal them 
unassisted on paths). See state statute below, and also the useful 
page from the city’s website.


So the trike that passed you at 35mph was already in violation of the 
rules, and does not meet the state definition of a “motor bicycle” 
(and is therefore not legal on streets, either).


But like every other law, it’s meaningless unless it’s enforced.

Look at the posted speed limits (for motor vehicles). How many people 
are ticketed for driving 40mph on the sections of University Ave that 
are signed 25mph?


Since you replied to me only, I won’t post this on the list-serv 
without asking you. I think it’s relevant to the discussion, so you 
might consider posting it (and my response) yourself.


State Statute 340.01(30) defines a “motor bicycle”:

http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/340.pdf

340.01(30) "Motor bicycle" means any of the following:

(a) A bicycle to which a power unit not an integral part of the 
vehicle has been added to permit the vehicle to travel at a speed of 
not more than 30 miles per hour with a 150-pound rider on a dry, 
level, hard surface with no wind and having a seat for the operator.


(b) A 2-wheeled or 3-wheeled vehicle that has fully operative pedals 
for propulsion by human power and an electric motor of less than 750 
watts and that is capable, when powered solely by the motor, of a 
maximum speed of less than 20 miles per hour with a 170-pound rider 
on a dry, level, hard surface with no wind.


Here’s a useful page from the city’s website. Although this page 
makes no mention of bikes with something other than an electric 
motor, all the prohibitions on using an electric bicycle also apply 
to motor bicycles with gas engines.


http://www.cityofmadison.com/trafficEngineering/documents/ElecBikeLawsWeb20130520v.pdf

Chuck Strawser

Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner

Commuter Solutions

UW-Madison Transportation Services

*Please note that my email address has changed. My new email 
is**charles.straw...@wisc.edu *


Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx


How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey


*From:*Brian Mink [mailto:bcm...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Friday, July 08, 2016 10:22 AM
*To:* Chuck Strawser
*Subject:* Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising 
Health Benefits of an Electric Bike


Thanks Chuck. Many jurisdictions go beyond the simple rule that 
Madison has posted on bike trails by restricting maximum speed. Some 
of the electric hub motors are quite capable of reaching 35 miles per 
hour. I was passed by a high end trike last week that was probably 
doing 30 mph outfitted with the most powerful BionX hub motor. 
Madison's common courtesy and common sense "Yield to slower users" 

Re: [Bikies] FW: NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[William Hauda via Bikies]

Currently Wisconsin state law prohibits use of E-bikes on bike ways 
with the motor engaged. That is Madison's policy also. There is a 
question whether the restrictions apply to state trails and the 
Nonmotorized Recreation and Transportation Trails Council is currently 
exploring options. Two major states have tried to tackle this. 
California early this year enacted legislation creating classes of 
E-bikes with rules on how each class can be used. In New York, the 
effort got sidetracked because of a single legislator who chairs the 
transportation committee. The problem we are dealing with in Wisconsin 
is the emerging Speed Pedelec technology. These bikes, popular in 
Europe, are capable of 38 mph. Our concern is that mixing electric 
assisted bikes with all of the other nonmotorized users of the trails 
(like walkers, roller bladers, runners and bicyclists) creates a 
dangerous mix. How to avoid that is the goal of NRTTC. Enforcement of 
speed limits is problematic. Can you tell whether a motor is engaged? 
Probably not because electric motors are silent. While DNR does have 
some radar certified employees they don't have enough staff to handle 
the daily chores, let alone run speed traps. So it's a complex issue and 
we on the NRTTC are working on it.


Bill Hauda, bicycling representative, NRTTC


On 7/8/2016 10:42 AM, Chuck Strawser via Bikies wrote:


Brian and I exhanged emails off-list, and then he agreed that it was 
worth sharing that exchange to the list. It’s copied below.


chuck

*From:*Chuck Strawser
*Sent:* Friday, July 08, 2016 10:35 AM
*To:* 'Brian Mink'
*Subject:* RE: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising 
Health Benefits of an Electric Bike


Brian,

There are also already state rules in place that define “motor 
bicycles” as those going less than 20mph, and even those are not 
allowed to be used on bike paths **under power** (you can pedal them 
unassisted on paths). See state statute below, and also the useful 
page from the city’s website.


So the trike that passed you at 35mph was already in violation of the 
rules, and does not meet the state definition of a “motor bicycle” 
(and is therefore not legal on streets, either).


But like every other law, it’s meaningless unless it’s enforced.

Look at the posted speed limits (for motor vehicles). How many people 
are ticketed for driving 40mph on the sections of University Ave that 
are signed 25mph?


Since you replied to me only, I won’t post this on the list-serv 
without asking you. I think it’s relevant to the discussion, so you 
might consider posting it (and my response) yourself.


State Statute 340.01(30) defines a “motor bicycle”:

http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/340.pdf

340.01(30) "Motor bicycle" means any of the following:

(a) A bicycle to which a power unit not an integral part of the 
vehicle has been added to permit the vehicle to travel at a speed of 
not more than 30 miles per hour with a 150-pound rider on a dry, 
level, hard surface with no wind and having a seat for the operator.


(b) A 2-wheeled or 3-wheeled vehicle that has fully operative pedals 
for propulsion by human power and an electric motor of less than 750 
watts and that is capable, when powered solely by the motor, of a 
maximum speed of less than 20 miles per hour with a 170-pound rider on 
a dry, level, hard surface with no wind.


Here’s a useful page from the city’s website. Although this page makes 
no mention of bikes with something other than an electric motor, all 
the prohibitions on using an electric bicycle also apply to motor 
bicycles with gas engines.


http://www.cityofmadison.com/trafficEngineering/documents/ElecBikeLawsWeb20130520v.pdf

Chuck Strawser

Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner

Commuter Solutions

UW-Madison Transportation Services

*Please note that my email address has changed. My new email 
is**charles.straw...@wisc.edu *


Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx


How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey


*From:*Brian Mink [mailto:bcm...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Friday, July 08, 2016 10:22 AM
*To:* Chuck Strawser
*Subject:* Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising 
Health Benefits of an Electric Bike


Thanks Chuck. Many jurisdictions go beyond the simple rule that 
Madison has posted on bike trails by restricting maximum speed. Some 
of the electric hub motors are quite capable of reaching 35 miles per 
hour. I was passed by a high end trike last week that was probably 
doing 30 mph outfitted with the most powerful BionX hub motor. 
Madison's common courtesy and common sense "Yield to slower users" is 
a nice start but I think Madison will likely have to deal with an 
overall speed limit on bike trails, eventually.


Brian Mink

*Chuck Strawser via Bikies* 

Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Jym Dyer via Bikies]

Quoting Brian Mink:
> Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so
> based on some need that we probably don't know about.

=v= My experience is that this is true some of the time, but
not most of the time.  So I can't really assume that.

> I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric
> bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum
> speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like.

=v= I'm not sure which cities you mean.  There are laws which
apply, but signs that are posted at bike paths are rare, and
are often incomplete or inaccurate about those laws.  Certainly
no bike lanes have any sort of signage, either.

=v= I know that California designs most of its bicycle
facilities to accommodate a maximum speed of 20mph, yet the
latest e-gadget lobbying push that was directed at the state
legislature, the state bike advocacy organization, and a bunch
of local bike advocacy organizations were for the purpose of
having a 25mph device legally defined as a bicycle.
<_Jym_>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Jym Dyer via Bikies]

Quoting tim wong:
>> And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
>> By far, the most people who use them will be former
>> bicyclists.

=v= This is exactly my concern, because for decades the
purveyors of e-gadgets have targeted bicyclists for their
sales and marketing, not motorists.  We are in the midst
of a nationwide campaign that is simultaneously lobbying
state legislatures and bicycle advocacy organizations to
accept and promote electric bikes in bicycle facilities
and at bicycle events.

=v= I'm on many bicycle email lists and web fora, and no
matter what the list or forum is putatively for, there is
always someone there to peddle e-gadgets, promising that
they will make all my dreams come true, why don't you try
one right now?  You'd like it if you tried it, you know.
And articles like this one by Gretchen Reynolds show up
in newspapers' active living or sports sections instead
of, say, the automobile sections.

=v= My rule of thumb is pretty simple:

  If an e-gadget replaces car use, that's good.
  If an e-gadget replaces bicycle use, that's bad.

If an e-gadget would get people out of a car who could
ride a bicycle but wouldn't, that just raises questions
about why they wouldn't.  Seems more like an opportunity
being lost thanks to half-measures.

Quoting "via Bikies":
> I also don't get all the hostility about them.

=v= I wouldn't say I'm hostile _per_se_, but I am well and
truly annoyed by the relentless shilling and cluelessness.
Certainly I see applications for electric motors, parents
carrying kids in cargo bikes, or folks with actual mobility
issues.  I see some of the former and relatively few of the
latter, but mostly I see people 30 years younger the me who
are entranced by gadgetry (and could use some exercise).
<_Jym_>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

I think one can make a reasonable argument that there are really two 
classes of electric bicycles:


1) Electric assist which requires pedaling input in order to activate 
and continue the use of the electric assist motor. The intent being that 
the motor is primarily used to assist in climbing inclines and hills.


2) Full time electric which requires no action other than using a thumb 
or twist throttle to start the motor and require no pedaling input where 
there may be a bicycle drive train but the pedals are for all intents 
and purposes only for holding one's feet off the ground.


I think you can reasonably argue that the second class should be 
confined to streets versus trails.


As manufacturers make more powerful, faster, non pedaling input required 
versions I think it reasonable that they ought to be restricted to streets.


I would argue that purely pedal with electric assist have a place on 
trails so long as they cannot exceed some reasonable speed that does not 
exceed the normal bicycle traffic speed on the path.


Brian Mink
Monona


ivar moi via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 10:24 AM


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Chuck Strawser via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow 
electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to 
maximum speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should 
Madison have such rules and post them? Probably."


Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the 
wayfinding signs along bike paths all around town, and among those 
rules is this one:

"Faster {path] users yield to slower users"

Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their 
vehicle is often as important (or more important) to the safety of 
others than exactly what kind of vehicle it is.




Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services

Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
charles.straw...@wisc.edu


Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx


How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey





From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of 
Brian Mink via Bikies

Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
To: rpaol...@execpc.com
Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health 
Benefits of an Electric Bike


I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than 
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes 
or wheels with hub motors.


I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using 
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid 
hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.


I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core 
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric 
assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so 
based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places 
don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one 
below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.


I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do 
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules 
and post them? Probably.


Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into 
the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll 
look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion 
that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.


Brian Mink
Monona


via Bikies
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let

them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.



Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being

on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.

> By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.



I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when

someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)

But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how

discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an

electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who

thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is

not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in 

Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[ivar moi via Bikies]

It’s a motor cycle and belongs on the street not a bike path-just like this:On 
Jul 8, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Chuck Strawser via Bikies  
wrote:
> 
> Brian Mink said: “I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow 
> electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum 
> speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have 
> such rules and post them? Probably.”
>  
> Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the wayfinding 
> signs along bike paths all around town, and among those rules is this one:
> “Faster {path] users yield to slower users”
>  
> Which gets to the crux of the issue – how someone operates their vehicle is 
> often as important (or more important) to the safety of others than exactly 
> what kind of vehicle it is.
>  
>  
>  
> Chuck Strawser
> Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
> Commuter Solutions
> UW-Madison Transportation Services
>  
> Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
> charles.straw...@wisc.edu 
>  
> Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C 
> White:http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx 
> 
>  
> How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey 
> athttps://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Brian Mink via Bikies
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
> To: rpaol...@execpc.com 
> Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health 
> Benefits of an Electric Bike
>  
> I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than optimal 
> joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes or wheels with 
> hub motors.
> 
> I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using electric 
> assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid hauler electric 
> assist bikes on trails around town.
> 
> I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core enthusiasts 
> will put off or scorn the thought of using electric assist. Let's assume that 
> most folks who use electric assist do so based on some need that we probably 
> don't know about. Many work places don't have showers. Electric assist one 
> could image, can keep one below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning 
> commute. 
> 
> I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do have 
> rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, remaining 
> non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules and post them? 
> Probably.
> 
> Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into the need 
> for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll look back on our 
> years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion that we were not being 
> understanding, nice or fair.
> 
> Brian Mink
> Monona
> 
> 
> via Bikies 
> July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
> If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
> them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
> 
> Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
> on the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
>  > By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
>  
> I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
> someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.) 
> But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
> discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
> electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
> thinks he's doing Tour de France.  A moron on an electric-assist bike is
> not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.
>  
> As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
> so what?  If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
> capability, what's wrong with that?
>  
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org 
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org 
> 
>  
> -- 
> Sent from Postbox 
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org 
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org 
> 

Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Chuck Strawser via Bikies]

Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric 
bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules and post 
them? Probably."

Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the wayfinding 
signs along bike paths all around town, and among those rules is this one:
"Faster {path] users yield to slower users"

Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their vehicle is 
often as important (or more important) to the safety of others than exactly 
what kind of vehicle it is.



Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services

Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
charles.straw...@wisc.edu

Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx

How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey




From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mink 
via Bikies
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
To: rpaol...@execpc.com
Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits 
of an Electric Bike

I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than optimal 
joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes or wheels with 
hub motors.

I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using electric 
assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid hauler electric assist 
bikes on trails around town.

I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core enthusiasts 
will put off or scorn the thought of using electric assist. Let's assume that 
most folks who use electric assist do so based on some need that we probably 
don't know about. Many work places don't have showers. Electric assist one 
could image, can keep one below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning 
commute.

I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do have 
rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, remaining non 
aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules and post them? Probably.

Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into the need 
for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll look back on our 
years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion that we were not being 
understanding, nice or fair.

Brian Mink
Monona


via Bikies
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let

them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.



Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being

on the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.

 > By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.



I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when

someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)

But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how

discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an

electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who

thinks he's doing Tour de France.  A moron on an electric-assist bike is

not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.



As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,

so what?  If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical

capability, what's wrong with that?



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Sent from 
Postbox
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than 
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes 
or wheels with hub motors.


I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using 
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid hauler 
electric assist bikes on trails around town.


I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core 
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric assist. 
Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so based on some 
need that we probably don't know about. Many work places don't have 
showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one below the gushing 
sweat threshold on the morning commute.


I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do 
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules 
and post them? Probably.


Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into the 
need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll look 
back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion that we 
were not being understanding, nice or fair.


Brian Mink
Monona


via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.



Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
on the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.

  >  By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.

I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
thinks he's doing Tour de France.  A moron on an electric-assist bike is
not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.

As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
so what?  If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
capability, what's wrong with that?

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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Eric White via Bikies]

And don't get me started on bikes with chains. Either ride a draisine the
way God intended or get off the path!

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:17 AM, tim wong via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
> them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.  There are a
> few motorized bikes riding around the east side and, like all motorists,
> they are not careful and ride way too close to bikes they pass.
> Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being on
> the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.  By
> far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
>
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
>> Reporting on a small-scale health study in Boulder of electric-assist
>> bicycles, part of an initiative to formulate policy on whether to allow
>> them on bike paths. They conclude that these bikes are a good way to get
>> sedentary folks into better shape. The article comments are (mostly) also
>> worth a read.
>>
>> (For my part, I hate on the fucking things, particularly whenever
>> somebody passes me a little too close on one. But that's my problem, and
>> not really relevant to policy.)
>>
>>
>> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-an-electric-bike-2/
>>
>> --
>> S. Rose
>> I am the one who noshes!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Bikies mailing list
>> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
>> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Earlier this year I was fined $1221 by the city for having wildflowers in
> my terrace and a burning bush in my yard. My trial occurred more than
> three months after the city council unanimously approved the "Pollinator
> Protection Task Force" report which seeks to protect pollinators--bees,
> butterflies, moths, bats, hummingbirds, etc., and preserve pollinator
> habitat  But the city's Building Inspection Division didn't get the "memo"
> and continues to order pollinator habitat removed and prosecutes people who
> don't comply. If you feel the ordinances on the books should be amended,
> sign my petition:
> http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/revise-ordinances-banning-flowers-in-yards-and-terrace
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[tim wong via Bikies]

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.  There are a
few motorized bikes riding around the east side and, like all motorists,
they are not careful and ride way too close to bikes they pass.
Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being on
the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.  By
far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Reporting on a small-scale health study in Boulder of electric-assist
> bicycles, part of an initiative to formulate policy on whether to allow
> them on bike paths. They conclude that these bikes are a good way to get
> sedentary folks into better shape. The article comments are (mostly) also
> worth a read.
>
> (For my part, I hate on the fucking things, particularly whenever somebody
> passes me a little too close on one. But that's my problem, and not really
> relevant to policy.)
>
>
> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-an-electric-bike-2/
>
> --
> S. Rose
> I am the one who noshes!
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>


-- 

Earlier this year I was fined $1221 by the city for having wildflowers in
my terrace and a burning bush in my yard. My trial occurred more than three
months after the city council unanimously approved the "Pollinator
Protection Task Force" report which seeks to protect pollinators--bees,
butterflies, moths, bats, hummingbirds, etc., and preserve pollinator
habitat  But the city's Building Inspection Division didn't get the "memo"
and continues to order pollinator habitat removed and prosecutes people who
don't comply. If you feel the ordinances on the books should be amended,
sign my petition:
http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/revise-ordinances-banning-flowers-in-yards-and-terrace
___
Bikies mailing list
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