Re: Why bother?

[Bryon Daly]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:12:07 -0700 (PDT), Maru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> After reading the whole of Brin's Uplift novels, I find myself puzzled by something: 
> Why undertake the massive, expensive, intricate, and morally tricky process of 
> Uplift at all?  There must be some intrinsic reason (that is, you can't say 'Because 
> the Progenitors did'. Then why did they begin the process?).  Creating more 
> sentients can't be the answer because then it would be far more efficient to 
> multiply your own kind.  Creating specialties (like dolphins would have been turned 
> into ebcause of their piloting skills) seems grossly inefficent, and again morally 
> questionable.  'Prestige' (power) could only be a reason once the system is in place 
> and generally accepted.  Thus far, I can only see two viable reasons- it might be 
> done for the purposes of having, to put it baldly, a slave species or more 
> altruistically, to gain the benefit of another world-view's advice and 
> thinking-style.  The formers is unjustifiable and the latter seems unlikely.  Has 
> Brin esposed any feasibl
 e
> explanations that I've completely missed or could someone help me out here? I'd be 
> grateful for a defintive answer on this nagging question.

My take on why the humans did it:
Because they could.  I have no doubt that if today we could produce
human-level intelligent chimps or dolphins through genetic engineering
and breeding programs, etc, that someone'd be doing it.  At first
perhaps just for the scientific knowledge, further on, perhaps for
filling roles they are well adapted to, and in the end, because they
discovered the galactic civilization revolved around uplift.

As for why the galactics did it:
I'm thinking the Progenitors did it for the company, (presumably they
were alone in the universe).  Dr. Brin touches on this theme of
loneliness in his great short story "The Crystal Spheres" (one of my
favorites).   In another story (on his web site, I think), humans
realize that they are biologically unsuited to go out and expand into
the universe, so they "adopt" AI's or robots (I forget the exact
details) to instill human nature in them, and it is those "children"
that will explore the stars.

As for the later galactics, I think for them it is instilled tradition
and established science, with many benefits and low risks.   They
think for the ultra long-term and see their clients in a way as
essentially their children and eventual inheritors.
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Robert Seeberger wrote:
Dave Land wrote:
 

On Sep 9, 2004, at 6:38 PM, JDG wrote:
David doesn't strike me as the "loaded with smileys" type. He
(rightly, I think) takes a rather dim view of cheating, thieving
morons and the cheating, thieving morons who cheat and steal for
them.
   

What about the folks who moron for the cheaters and thieves?
 

Aren't those the ones you'd call 'scape goats?  ;o)
Or did I miss something?
Sonja :o)
GCU: Still catching up
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Re: Polls

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Robert G. Seeberger wrote:
From The Century Foundation:

And you might have had the good grace to add an L3 to that subjectline. :o)
Sonja
GCU: Friendly reminder of our etiquette guidelines
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Re: Salon.com News Stung! - complete so you don't have to watch the ad

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Gary Denton wrote:

 

Thanks for the service, but you might also have taken that little extra 
trouble of adding an L3 to your subject line. :o)

Sonja
GCU: Friendly reminder of our etiquette guidelines :o)
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Re: Polls

[Robert Seeberger]

Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:
> Robert G. Seeberger wrote:
>
>>> From The Century Foundation:
>> 
>>
> And you might have had the good grace to add an L3 to that
> subjectline. :o)
>
> Sonja
> GCU: Friendly reminder of our etiquette guidelines

Sorry, that is my most oft repeated sin.
There is no excuse,
But here is mine.
I have very few constraints when it comes to downloading things. I
have a cable account, quite fast, and effectively no limitations on
downloads.
So when others add the L3 to a subject I tend not to notice it. It
really has zero effect on any decision making I may do. There is
simply no decision.
I receive 200 - 500 emails a day and that is less than one percent of
the bits downloaded into my network on a given day.

The only way that "L3 net enviromentalism" impinges upon my
conciousness is if people remind me.
With the kind of connectivity that is common over here (they actually
give bandwidth away for free at baseball games)(no kidding) it rarely
enters your mind that you might be causing problems for someone in
"the developing world".

xponent
Broad And Wide Maru
rob


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Re: Polls

[William T Goodall]

On 10 Sep 2004, at 11:28 am, Robert Seeberger wrote:
With the kind of connectivity that is common over here (they actually
give bandwidth away for free at baseball games)(no kidding) it rarely
enters your mind that you might be causing problems for someone in
"the developing world".
http://www.oecd.org/document/60/ 
0,2340,en_2825_495656_2496764_1_1_1_1,00.html

or
 http://makeashorterlink.com/?U15E62249
--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever  
that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the  
majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish  
than sensible."
- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Quiet

[JDG]

At 11:54 AM 9/9/2004 -0700 Dave Land wrote:
>Former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben "helping George Bush get into the National 
>Guard was the worst thing I ever did" Barnes was to be interviewed.

he forgot to add "the worst thing I ever did before becoming a Kerry
fundraiser."

;-)

JDG

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RE: Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked

[JDG]

At 02:06 PM 9/7/2004 +1000 Andrew Paul wrote:
>I still want someone to tell me what Iraq has to do with terrorism,
>Or 'had' to do with terrorism, as it may well have a lot to do with it
>in the future. I wish people would stop saying terrorism and Iraq in
>the same sentence, or else explain, with the addition of some evidence.>

I've addressed this many times on the List, but here is a quick summary:

1) Following September 11th, it was clear that letting failed States fester
posed a threat to the United States.   Back in 1994, it would not have been
obvious that Taliban-occupied Afghanistan was a threat to the United States
- but this country would go on to produce the most devastating attack on
the United States in 50+ years.

2) Following September 11th, if terrorists were able to kill thousands
using airplanes, it immediately became worrisome as to how many thousands
could be killed through the use of WMD's.Saddam Hussein had twice come
within a year or so of building a nuclear bomb in 1981 and again in 1991.
Moreover, Western intelligence services had been previously caught
completely by surprises in 1991, again in India and Pakistans several years
later, again in the DPRK in 2001, and then again in Iran in 2003.   Given
that intelligence could not be relied upon to predict when a nuclear bomb
would be imminent, pre-emptive action was necessary due to the tremendous
downside of letting Hussein go nuclear.

3) The primary grievance of Osama bin Laden was the permanent placement of
US troops in Saudi Arabia - a strategic necessity so long as Saudi Arabia
continued to supply the plurality of the world's oil and so long as Saddam
Hussein remained in power on Saudi Arabia's border.   Eliminating Saddam
Hussein would permit the US to begin to defuse this grievance.

4) The September 11th attacks were carried out by a large number of Saudis
- apparently iun large part due to #3, and probably also in large part in
reaction to the tyranny in their own country.  This necessitated working
for reform, if not regime change in Saudi Arabia - something that was
impossible so long as US troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia.   Removing
Saddam Hussein would permit us to take stronger gambles with pressuring
Saudi Arabia for change.

5) Two of the primary sources of Arab outrage against the US are the
continued occupation of the Palestinian people by Israel and the
impoverishment of the Iraqi people under Saddam Hussein and UN Sanctions -
both of which are often blamed on the US.   Removing Saddam Hussein would
eliminate a funding source for Palestinian terrorism - the single greatest
obstacle to peace there, as well as ending  the UN sanctions on the Iraqi
people and leading to their eventual relative economic prosperity.

6) Removing Saddam Hussein and installing a semi-liberal democracy in Iraq
ala Turkey or Bangladesh would serve as a kernal for reform in one of the
most totalitarian regions of the world - which not coincidentally is also
the wellspring of most of the world's terrorism.

JDG

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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:02:32 -0400, JDG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 3) The Head of Elections for Palm Beach County, also a Democrat, who
> designed the butterfly ballot that arguably may have resulted in a number
> of intended votes for Al Gore being registered as votes for Pat Buchanan
> due to voter confusion and incompetence.

Madame Butterfly was a Republican, switched to the Democratic Party to
help get elected, got pissed off and changed her registration to
Independent in 2001.  This year her financial and volunteer support
came from the county and state GOP.

Gary "born in West Palm Beach and still have relatives there" Denton


-- 
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"I don't try harder"
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Re: Why bother?

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:08:41 -0400, Bryon Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:12:07 -0700 (PDT), Maru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > After reading the whole of Brin's Uplift novels, I find myself puzzled by 
> > something: Why undertake the massive, expensive, intricate, and morally tricky 
> > process of Uplift at all?  There must be some intrinsic reason (that is, you can't 
> > say 'Because the Progenitors did'. Then why did they begin the process?).  
> > Creating more sentients can't be the answer because then it would be far more 
> > efficient to multiply your own kind.  Creating specialties (like dolphins would 
> > have been turned into ebcause of their piloting skills) seems grossly inefficent, 
> > and again morally questionable.  'Prestige' (power) could only be a reason once 
> > the system is in place and generally accepted.  Thus far, I can only see two 
> > viable reasons- it might be done for the purposes of having, to put it baldly, a 
> > slave species or more altruistically, to gain the benefit of another world-view's 
> > advice and thinking-style.  The formers is unjustifiable and the latter seems 
> > unlikely.  Has Brin esposed any feasi
 bl
> e
> > explanations that I've completely missed or could someone help me out here? I'd be 
> > grateful for a defintive answer on this nagging question.
> 
> My take on why the humans did it:
> Because they could.  I have no doubt that if today we could produce
> human-level intelligent chimps or dolphins through genetic engineering
> and breeding programs, etc, that someone'd be doing it.  At first
> perhaps just for the scientific knowledge, further on, perhaps for
> filling roles they are well adapted to, and in the end, because they
> discovered the galactic civilization revolved around uplift.
> 
> As for why the galactics did it:
> I'm thinking the Progenitors did it for the company, (presumably they
> were alone in the universe).  Dr. Brin touches on this theme of
> loneliness in his great short story "The Crystal Spheres" (one of my
> favorites).   In another story (on his web site, I think), humans
> realize that they are biologically unsuited to go out and expand into
> the universe, so they "adopt" AI's or robots (I forget the exact
> details) to instill human nature in them, and it is those "children"
> that will explore the stars.
> 
> As for the later galactics, I think for them it is instilled tradition
> and established science, with many benefits and low risks.   They
> think for the ultra long-term and see their clients in a way as
> essentially their children and eventual inheritors.

Maru - I never even questioned this.  If there are other species just
a few genetic steps away from sentience you would find people who
would help them achieve it.

I would think many would think it more morally wrong to modify their
own species to create new slave species or another world view.

Gary Denton
-- 
#2 on google for liberal news
"I don't try harder"
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Re: Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 5:41 AM, JDG wrote:
At 02:06 PM 9/7/2004 +1000 Andrew Paul wrote:
I still want someone to tell me what Iraq has to do with terrorism,
Or 'had' to do with terrorism, as it may well have a lot to do with it
in the future. I wish people would stop saying terrorism and Iraq in
the same sentence, or else explain, with the addition of some 
evidence.>
I've addressed this many times on the List, but here is a quick 
summary:

1) Following September 11th, it was clear that letting failed States 
fester
posed a threat to the United States.
Oh quit it. What about North Korea, Pakistan or the rapidly re-emergent 
Russia? I find it baffling that those who advocate bombing the hell out 
if Iraq always seem to blithely overlook these other, much greater and 
more significant threats.

2) Following September 11th, if terrorists were able to kill thousands
using airplanes, it immediately became worrisome as to how many 
thousands
could be killed through the use of WMD's.
Oh quit it. Missing Russian nukes have been on everyone's mind since 
the mid 1990s. Or at least anyone who's been paying attention. Nothing 
was more "immediately worrisome" after 11 September than before.

And there's a subtler shade here. Aircraft are not nuke or bio weapons. 
They are not WMDs at all. Making a connection between using aircraft a 
missiles and dirty bombs is an interesting piece of sophistry but does 
not justify the assault on Iraq.

Saddam Hussein had twice come
within a year or so of building a nuclear bomb in 1981 and again in 
1991.
Care to cite some evidence for that assertion?
Moreover, Western intelligence services had been previously caught
completely by surprises in 1991, again in India and Pakistans several 
years
later, again in the DPRK in 2001, and then again in Iran in 2003.   
Given
that intelligence could not be relied upon to predict when a nuclear 
bomb
would be imminent, pre-emptive action was necessary due to the 
tremendous
downside of letting Hussein go nuclear.
But it was this same flawed intelligence that was cited as the reason 
to attack Iraq. You cannot have it both ways -- you can't use faulty 
intelligence as an excuse to support an attack based on faulty 
intelligence.

3) The primary grievance of Osama bin Laden was the permanent 
placement of
US troops in Saudi Arabia - a strategic necessity so long as Saudi 
Arabia
continued to supply the plurality of the world's oil and so long as 
Saddam
Hussein remained in power on Saudi Arabia's border.
Um, actually I believe OBL's primary grievance is that the entire world 
is not fundamentalist jihadist Muslim. Since the US is the largest 
single symbolic threat to jihasdism, it's obvious we're the biggest 
target. As wealthy and connected as his family is, are you seriously 
asserting they couldn't get pull enough in SA to have US troops scaled 
back? (After all we know the Bin Ladens are in bed with the Bushes.)

4) The September 11th attacks were carried out by a large number of 
Saudis
- apparently iun large part due to #3, and probably also in large part 
in
reaction to the tyranny in their own country.
You have interesting ideas about where religious intolerance 
originates. These people were (are) in effect driven insane by their 
belief systems, not by governmental oppression or by irritation about 
US troops.

This necessitated working
for reform, if not regime change in Saudi Arabia - something that was
impossible so long as US troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia.
No, as long as SA is a theocracy, reform is impossible. The presence of 
US troops has little to do with that. In order for real change to take 
place, the citizens of SA would effectively have to reject their 
religion.

Removing
Saddam Hussein would permit us to take stronger gambles with pressuring
Saudi Arabia for change.
That's more convoluted than twelve contortionists playing Twister.
5) Two of the primary sources of Arab outrage against the US are the
continued occupation of the Palestinian people by Israel and the
impoverishment of the Iraqi people under Saddam Hussein and UN 
Sanctions -
both of which are often blamed on the US.   Removing Saddam Hussein 
would
eliminate a funding source for Palestinian terrorism - the single 
greatest
obstacle to peace there, as well as ending  the UN sanctions on the 
Iraqi
people and leading to their eventual relative economic prosperity.
Um, it's the SAs that are backing a lot of Palestinian activity, IIRC. 
Iraq never had as much capital to spare. That's why the hijackers came 
in the main from SA, not impoverished nations like Iraq or Afghanistan. 
(Well, that plus SA is a theocratic dictatorship, while Iraq actually 
wasn't. Hussein was a despot and a tyrant, and he was surely a madman, 
but he wasn't a god-emperor.)

6) Removing Saddam Hussein and installing a semi-liberal democracy in 
Iraq
ala Turkey or Bangladesh would serve as a kernal for reform in one of 
the
most totalitarian regions of the world - which not coinc

Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 194, Issue 11

[Gary Denton]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:16:02 -0700, Warren Ockrassa
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 2004, at 8:44 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
> 
> > Maru wrote:
> >> Wouldn't the statute of limitations come into play for dereliction
> > of
> >> duty during non-war time over thirty years ago? ~Maru
> >
> > Viet-nam was not wartime?
> 
> Viet Nam was every bit as much "war" as the action against Iraq, yes.
> Bush's dereliction of duty occurred in 1968 through 1973. We were most
> certainly in a war at that time; that was the entire reason he got in
> Nat Guard service -- to cower over here so he could live long enough to
> attack by proxy the record of someone who actually *did* go to fight.
> 
> As for statute of limitations -- I don't know if that applies in a
> military setting. If not he would be subject to court martial. (In
> Arizona the limit appears to be 2 years.) This is why I suggested he
> needs to be deposed under oath. If he lies, it's perjury. That's
> impeachable and how the Repubs tried to get Clinton.
> 
> -- WthmO

While I think it would be fitting if Bush was now required to serve
out the term he skipped by being sent to Iraq it ain't going to happen
and the most serious chargable crime now is the destruction of
military documents. For that there is some, but probably not enough,
evidence.

I am now curious about the forgeries issue on the CBS memos.

The White House didn't challenge the veracity of the memos which fit
in with what is known about Bush's military career in 72-74.  Instead
their attacks were on the meaning of the memos.

One of the sources or points of confirmation for the genuineness of
the documents is Killian's then-superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W.
Hodges, who is mentioned in one of the documents and was involved in
the back-and-forths described in the documents. Someone from CBS told
the Washington Post that Hodges confirmed that the statements
contained in the documents were concerns and thoughts that Killian
expressed to him at the time.

Killian's son believes some but not all of the memos are genuine.

Killian's wife denies the memos and seems to only know the period when
Bush was a good officer, "outstanding" in his reviews before 1972, and
didn't know of the later shift in opinion as he quit attending.

If the memos are fabricated who familar with the Air Force reserve at
the time, and knew the story and knew Killian create the memos.in an
attempt to either help Bush or Kerry?  It supports kerry because it
confirms the derelection of duty and disobeying orders of Bush, it
helps Bush if it can be shown they are forgeries and the media has
shown more than a tendancy to back away from stories where part of the
evidence is tainted.

Are they really fabricated?  Some of these "experts" are talking out
of their hats, superscript "th" were available on some of the IBM
Selectric balls and many standard IBM machines in 72 had proportional
spacing.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_09/004669.php

The memos added nothing new except confirmation of the story the White
House released documents showed.

Gary Denton
-- 
#2 on google for liberal news
"I don't try harder"
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Cheney's Mouth is Evil, Why it Must Be Eradicated

[Dave Land]

Folks,
OK, it's getting to be old news by now, but after telling a member of 
Congress to go F*** himself, now the VP is basically saying "Vote for 
us or the terrorists win:"

"It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today,
on November 2nd, we make the right choice. Because if
we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll
get hit again. That we'll be hit in a way that will be
devastating from the standpoint of the United
States"
Rich Lewis of The Sentinal (Carlisle, PA, not too far from my childhood 
home of Pittsburgh, though apparently about a universe away from the 
Scaife family's influence) editorializes on the topic at 
.

So let's see... A couple of weeks ago, he says "Go F Yourself," and now 
he tells us how.

Dave
Is there no limit to the twisted sick evildoing of these sick twisted 
evildoing neocon freaks?

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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Julia Thompson]

Gary Denton wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:02:32 -0400, JDG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 3) The Head of Elections for Palm Beach County, also a Democrat, who
> > designed the butterfly ballot that arguably may have resulted in a number
> > of intended votes for Al Gore being registered as votes for Pat Buchanan
> > due to voter confusion and incompetence.
> 
> Madame Butterfly was a Republican, switched to the Democratic Party to
> help get elected, got pissed off and changed her registration to
> Independent in 2001.  This year her financial and volunteer support
> came from the county and state GOP.

Sounds even more opportunistic than Carole Keeton [insert current last
name here].

Julia
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Julia Thompson]

Warren Ockrassa wrote:
> 
> On Sep 9, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Julia Thompson wrote:
> 
> > Every time there's a disaster like this, sure, maybe there are some
> > folks who deserve it -- but those least at fault are the hardest hit,
> > and if there's any sort of justice, a weather system isn't an efficient
> > way of distributing it
> 
> I'll agree with the second bit (using a nuke to swat a fly), but with
> hurricanes often the people who get hit the hardest -- here in the
> states -- do deserve it. They choose not to evacuate, remain behind
> despite repeated warnings, and then expect the National Guard to come
> to their rescue.

I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale neighborhoods,
generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
responsible for the general failings.

Boneheaded failure to evacuate is a different matter entirely, and
you're right on that one.

Julia
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Re: Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:41:13 -0400, JDG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 02:06 PM 9/7/2004 +1000 Andrew Paul wrote:
> >I still want someone to tell me what Iraq has to do with terrorism,
> >Or 'had' to do with terrorism, as it may well have a lot to do with it
> >in the future. I wish people would stop saying terrorism and Iraq in
> >the same sentence, or else explain, with the addition of some evidence.>
> 
> I've addressed this many times on the List, but here is a quick summary:
> 
> 1) Following September 11th, it was clear that letting failed States fester
> posed a threat to the United States.   Back in 1994, it would not have been
> obvious that Taliban-occupied Afghanistan was a threat to the United States
> - but this country would go on to produce the most devastating attack on
> the United States in 50+ years.

Standard meme now used to justify intervention in all small states not
friendly to the United States.  Also the "country" did not attack the
United States.  Gen. Thomas, who actually supports Bush, said that
when we had the chance to go to war against the terrorists in
Afghanistan and eliminate the threat this administration shut the war
down to prepare for the not terrorism related invasion of Iraq.

> 
> 2) Following September 11th, if terrorists were able to kill thousands
> using airplanes, it immediately became worrisome as to how many thousands
> could be killed through the use of WMD's.Saddam Hussein had twice come
> within a year or so of building a nuclear bomb in 1981 and again in 1991.
> Moreover, Western intelligence services had been previously caught
> completely by surprises in 1991, again in India and Pakistans several years
> later, again in the DPRK in 2001, and then again in Iran in 2003.   Given
> that intelligence could not be relied upon to predict when a nuclear bomb
> would be imminent, pre-emptive action was necessary due to the tremendous
> downside of letting Hussein go nuclear.

Saddam was within a couple years in 81, he had a nuclear program in 91
but many years away from a bomb.  So you are saying that given our
intelligence is so bad the slightest possible threat justifies
military intervention.


> 
> 3) The primary grievance of Osama bin Laden was the permanent placement of
> US troops in Saudi Arabia - a strategic necessity so long as Saudi Arabia
> continued to supply the plurality of the world's oil and so long as Saddam
> Hussein remained in power on Saudi Arabia's border.   Eliminating Saddam
> Hussein would permit the US to begin to defuse this grievance.

After 91 Saddam was not a threat to Saudi Arabia, bases could have
been moved and some were being moved to neighboring states.  There
were many opportunities to remove Saddam, none created the desired
outcome of a US client state.

> 
> 4) The September 11th attacks were carried out by a large number of Saudis
> - apparently iun large part due to #3, and probably also in large part in
> reaction to the tyranny in their own country.  This necessitated working
> for reform, if not regime change in Saudi Arabia - something that was
> impossible so long as US troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia.   Removing
> Saddam Hussein would permit us to take stronger gambles with pressuring
> Saudi Arabia for change.

This is funny, there is no pressure on the house of Saud to change
from the closely linked Bush family.  This argument is funny, nuclear
proliferation is the most serious threat facing the United States and
no administration has paid less attention to it.  This administration
by its actions and policies is encouraging North Korea and Iran to go
nuclear to create a balance of terror nuclear standoff.

> 
> 5) Two of the primary sources of Arab outrage against the US are the
> continued occupation of the Palestinian people by Israel and the
> impoverishment of the Iraqi people under Saddam Hussein and UN Sanctions -
> both of which are often blamed on the US.   Removing Saddam Hussein would
> eliminate a funding source for Palestinian terrorism - the single greatest
> obstacle to peace there, as well as ending  the UN sanctions on the Iraqi
> people and leading to their eventual relative economic prosperity.

First statement true.  Saddam was not a funding source for Palestinian
terrorism, to cultivate good will he would started providing money to
families of dead Palestinians.  Iraq has gone from being in your terms
a failed Islamic state to a failed US client state with even less
economic prosperity.


> 
> 6) Removing Saddam Hussein and installing a semi-liberal democracy in Iraq
> ala Turkey or Bangladesh would serve as a kernal for reform in one of the
> most totalitarian regions of the world - which not coincidentally is also
> the wellspring of most of the world's terrorism.

I read the books before the war, this is liberal reverse domino theory
hijacked by those who think the U.S.  having half of the world's
military spending is not nearly enough.  Naivety and war profiteering,
Uber allies

Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Dave Land]

On Sep 9, 2004, at 8:43 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
Dave Land wrote:
On Sep 9, 2004, at 6:38 PM, JDG wrote:
David doesn't strike me as the "loaded with smileys" type. He
(rightly, I think) takes a rather dim view of cheating, thieving
morons and the cheating, thieving morons who cheat and steal for
them.
What about the folks who moron for the cheaters and thieves?
Otherwise referred to as "The American Electorate."
Dave
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Re: Quiet

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:22:00 -0400, JDG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 11:54 AM 9/9/2004 -0700 Dave Land wrote:
> >Former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben "helping George Bush get into the National
> >Guard was the worst thing I ever did" Barnes was to be interviewed.
> 
> he forgot to add "the worst thing I ever did before becoming a Kerry
> fundraiser."
> 
> ;-)
> 
> JDG

I would imagine he thinks "since helping that loud mouth kid from the
White House's mother raise money for her election."  Like many
old-style Texas dino Democrats he often supports GOP candidates.

That was the least interesting and new part of the story and Dan
Rather did not do an effective interview.  Barnes has stated since
1999 he helped Bush bypass a waiting list and get in.  The Bush
carefully parsed response has always been "no one from *my family*"
talked to Barnes.

The big news was the apparent documents from Bush's superior in the
Texas Air National Guard detailing Bush disobeying orders, ceasing
attending required meetings, pressure from his superiors to white wash
and sugar coat Bush reviews.

Gary Denton
-- 
#2 on google for liberal news
"I don't try harder"
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Dave Land]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:
I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale neighborhoods,
generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
responsible for the general failings.
My wife noticed this last night when the announcer on the news said
that 80-90% of houses in Grenada had been damaged or destroyed,
*even the house of the Prime Minister*.
It was that last bit that set her off -- as if his house was somehow
more important than any of the other 80-90% of houses in Grenada.
Dave
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Re: Diebold systems contain feature that allows tampering atcentral tabulator

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:39:39 +0100, William T Goodall
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On 10 Sep 2004, at 12:19 am, Dave Land wrote:
> 
> > On Sep 9, 2004, at 3:28 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps. OTOH more often one needs to solve a particular problem
> >> rather than run a particular program.
> >
> > and then, moments later,
> >
> >> Wouldn't it make more sense to choose an OS first and then pick
> >> hardware that would be good for running it?
> >
> > Wouldn't it make even more sense to consider the particular (set of)
> > problem(s) you need to solve, choose the app(s) that might best suit
> > your need(s), and see what OS(s) support the app(s) you need, and buy
> > whatever hardware (with or without a bundled OS) that would support
> > your need(s)?
> 
> I just meant that out of the ordering of those two choices (OS,
> hardware) the OS should be first. And of course there are other issues
> like security and TCO as well as just apps/OS/hardware. And the
> fulminating Evil of the Beast of Redmond :)

The rule is software first, then platform and compatibility.

Gary Denton
-- 
#2 on google for liberal news
"I don't try harder"
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Re: The Mercies of The Vatican

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Warren Ockrassa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Mercies of The Vatican
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:23:04 -0700

Me

For we all are individuals and cannot be lumped together in this 
particular context because of that.

Actually we can (I think), since I-consciousness is a trait, or at least 
that's how I see it. And in order for that "I" to be there, I've got to 
have something to contrast it with -- otherwise "I" has no meaning.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to listen in, it still 
makes a sound. Similarly, if I were the sole remaining human being on this 
planet (for whatever reason), I would still be me. And being a sentient life 
form - the kind that Data just loves scanning for - I would be aware my own 
existence and surrounding environment in ways that only a sentient being 
can. Moreover, I think this would apply in the case of not only being the 
sole *remaining* human, but being the *only* human in existence (again for 
whatever reason). For humans are sentient. Simple as that.

As for your take on it, I can certainly see where you're coming from, and 
can even agree on -'the presence of self-awareness, being almost by 
definition other-awareness as well, changes how an I-conscious being 
behaves'- as I'm sure that the awareness of others would definitely change 
how an 'I-conscious' being behaves. A simple example of this would be 
someone observing proper table manners when dining with other people. 
Conversely, when eating alone, I doubt that many people give a rodent's 
posterior as to how much of their food ends up on their shirt as opposed to 
in their mouth (a little extreme, but you get the point). As far as your 
overall scheme though, I'm not buying. But that's just me...being an 
individual.

Basically all I'm suggesting is that while the gene drives evolution in 
animals lacking self-awareness, as soon as the "I" surfaces, as soon as 
visible signs of intelligence can be seen (and selected for by potential 
breeding mates), we're moving into Dawkinsian meme-space. Genes are no 
longer the sole driving factors in human evolution, in selection, or in 
determining what traits pass along. (After all we see traits other than the 
physical, such as tastes in music, etc.)
Yes, yes. I understand all of that. And all I'm suggesting is that the 'I' 
is limited to the 'I' in a very strict sense. Meaning that a generalization 
such as yours - while being accurate to some degree - cannot be 100% 
assured, as we have no idea what breeding choices individual people might 
make. Which you kinda stated by saying that potential breeding mates are 
selected for reasons other than tight-fitting jeans.

-Travis "genes" Edmunds
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Dave Land wrote:
On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:
I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale 
neighborhoods,
generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
responsible for the general failings.
My wife noticed this last night when the announcer on the news said
that 80-90% of houses in Grenada had been damaged or destroyed,
*even the house of the Prime Minister*.
It was that last bit that set her off -- as if his house was somehow
more important than any of the other 80-90% of houses in Grenada.
Same kind of deal as "Queequeg Airlines flight 402 crashed on departure 
from East Selivinlandia this morning, killing all 500 people aboard, 
including two Americans."

Oh. Well. That makes it all relevant, now doesn't it?
-- WthmO
I don't need a luxury yacht.
A bare necessity yacht will do just fine, thanks.
--
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:36:12 -0700, Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:
> 
> > I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
> > destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale neighborhoods,
> > generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
> > greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
> > responsible for the general failings.
> 
> My wife noticed this last night when the announcer on the news said
> that 80-90% of houses in Grenada had been damaged or destroyed,
> *even the house of the Prime Minister*.
> 
> It was that last bit that set her off -- as if his house was somehow
> more important than any of the other 80-90% of houses in Grenada.

I saw the news on that.  I was commenting to my sister these category
4 and 5 storms even destroy brick and concrete homes.  She replied
anyone who is sensible just gets on a plane and leaves.  Did I mention
she is a Republican?


Gary Denton
-- 
#2 on google for liberal news
"I don't try harder"
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:
I'll agree with the second bit (using a nuke to swat a fly), but with
hurricanes often the people who get hit the hardest -- here in the
states -- do deserve it. They choose not to evacuate, remain behind
despite repeated warnings, and then expect the National Guard to come
to their rescue.
I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale neighborhoods,
generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
responsible for the general failings.
That's a good point and one I'd overlooked, yeah.
-- WthmO
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Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?

[Travis Edmunds]

From: David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:33:41 -0400

Travis Edmunds wrote:

I can't help but root for the guy, and hope against all hope that he never 
loses. So I HOPE that this isn't true.

Sorry, Travis, but I'm very glad that he is eventually going.  I'm
getting very sick of seeing him already!  I have been hoping that
Jeopardy would get rid of him, even if it took some funny categories
and/or serious recruiting.
I can't see the producers going to any great lengths to get rid of Jennings. 
He is after all, great for the ratings.

(And that the new winner would be back
under the old rules.)
I'm glad they got rid of the 5 day limit. However it makes me wonder how 
many of the 5 day champs could have gone on to impressive winning streaks.

I play along, and watch for the questions.  I don't really care
that much who wins, unless they are annoying.
---David
And he is getting annoying.
For me it's kinda like watching the opening credits for The Simpsons and 
seeing the new and innovative ways that the family will deposit themselves 
onto the couch - i.e. Ken writing his name in different ways.

-Travis "I'll take Jennings With No End In Sight for $100 Million Alex" 
Edmunds

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Re: The Mercies of The Vatican

[Julia Randolph]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:09:43 -0230, Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> As for your take on it, I can certainly see where you're coming from, and
> can even agree on -'the presence of self-awareness, being almost by
> definition other-awareness as well, changes how an I-conscious being 
> behaves'- as I'm sure that the awareness of others would definitely change
> how an 'I-conscious' being behaves. A simple example of this would be
> someone observing proper table manners when dining with other people.
> Conversely, when eating alone, I doubt that many people give a rodent's
> posterior as to how much of their food ends up on their shirt as opposed to
> in their mouth (a little extreme, but you get the point). As far as your
> overall scheme though, I'm not buying. But that's just me...being an
> individual.

Bad example -- you ignore the stain factor.  :)  I'm equally caring
about the amount of spaghetti sauce on my shirt whether dining alone
or with others.

Chewing with one's mouth open, on the other hand

 Julia
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Re: The Mercies of The Vatican

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Julia Randolph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Mercies of The Vatican
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:55:38 -0500
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:09:43 -0230, Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> As for your take on it, I can certainly see where you're coming from, 
and
> can even agree on -'the presence of self-awareness, being almost by
> definition other-awareness as well, changes how an I-conscious being
> behaves'- as I'm sure that the awareness of others would definitely 
change
> how an 'I-conscious' being behaves. A simple example of this would be
> someone observing proper table manners when dining with other people.
> Conversely, when eating alone, I doubt that many people give a rodent's
> posterior as to how much of their food ends up on their shirt as opposed 
to
> in their mouth (a little extreme, but you get the point). As far as your
> overall scheme though, I'm not buying. But that's just me...being an
> individual.

Bad example -- you ignore the stain factor.  :)  I'm equally caring
about the amount of spaghetti sauce on my shirt whether dining alone
or with others.
 Pick up some Oxi Clean and let the sauce fall where it may.
-Travis "chlorine free" Edmunds
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Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?

[Julia Thompson]

Travis Edmunds wrote:
> 
> >From: David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?
> >Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:33:41 -0400
> 
> >>Travis Edmunds wrote:
> 
> >>I can't help but root for the guy, and hope against all hope that he never
> >>loses. So I HOPE that this isn't true.
> 
> >Sorry, Travis, but I'm very glad that he is eventually going.  I'm
> >getting very sick of seeing him already!  I have been hoping that
> >Jeopardy would get rid of him, even if it took some funny categories
> >and/or serious recruiting.
> 
> I can't see the producers going to any great lengths to get rid of Jennings.
> He is after all, great for the ratings.

A number of people want to see the day he gets beat.
 
> >(And that the new winner would be back
> >under the old rules.)
> 
> I'm glad they got rid of the 5 day limit. However it makes me wonder how
> many of the 5 day champs could have gone on to impressive winning streaks.

The lack of limit with a long streak brings heightened interest in some
viewers, and the ratings go up as a result.

And personally, I think it's cooler that after 5 days, the contestant
gets to come back for a 6th, rather than just walk away with a car. 
(Some of the cars they've had, I wouldn't want to own.)
 
> >I play along, and watch for the questions.  I don't really care
> >that much who wins, unless they are annoying.
> >
> >   ---David
> >
> >And he is getting annoying.

Yeah, but if the end is in sight, won't you want to watch to see the
end?  Or do you just want to quit watching, figuring it'll be all over
when he loses, and go back to it then?
 
> For me it's kinda like watching the opening credits for The Simpsons and
> seeing the new and innovative ways that the family will deposit themselves
> onto the couch - i.e. Ken writing his name in different ways.
> 
> -Travis "I'll take Jennings With No End In Sight for $100 Million Alex"
> Edmunds

Reminds me of the joke, "What's the difference between South Park and
Jeopardy!?"

Julia
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Land" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?


> On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:
>
> > I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
> > destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale neighborhoods,
> > generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
> > greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
> > responsible for the general failings.
>
> My wife noticed this last night when the announcer on the news said
> that 80-90% of houses in Grenada had been damaged or destroyed,
> *even the house of the Prime Minister*.
>
> It was that last bit that set her off -- as if his house was somehow
> more important than any of the other 80-90% of houses in Grenada.

Mayhaps it was just better built than those other houses.  I'd rate the
chances of the Prime Minister's house standing as much higher than average.

Dan M.


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RE: Groveling Apologies

[Travis Edmunds]

From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Brin-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Groveling Apologies
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:37:44 +0100
Sorry about that horrible email barrage there. I screwed up. Too much 
thinking.
I thought that was smoke that I saw billowing out of your ears!
-Travis
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Dave Land]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 11:09 AM, Dan Minette wrote:
- Original Message -
From: "Dave Land" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

On Sep 10, 2004, at 10:07 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:
I was thinking more in terms of, there's a greater percentage of
destruction of property at trailer parks than in upscale 
neighborhoods,
generally, and it's the people in the upscale neighborhoods who hold
greater economic and political power, hence arguably are more
responsible for the general failings.
My wife noticed this last night when the announcer on the news said
that 80-90% of houses in Grenada had been damaged or destroyed,
*even the house of the Prime Minister*.
It was that last bit that set her off -- as if his house was somehow
more important than any of the other 80-90% of houses in Grenada.
Mayhaps it was just better built than those other houses.  I'd rate the
chances of the Prime Minister's house standing as much higher than 
average.
Which is exactly the conclusion we came to, but would it have been all 
that
much more difficult for the reporter to say "even the house of Prime
Minister Keith Mitchell, which, unlike most houses in Granada, is made 
of
steel-reinforced concrete."

Dave
It's Got a Brightness Knob, But It Doesn't Work Maru
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near future Brin speaking gigs

[d.brin]

Afternoon of October 1 at UC Berkeley. I will speak at Sproul Plaza 
on the 40th anniversary of Mario Savio's rant atop a police car, 
which started the famed Berkeley Free Speech Movement. It seems both 
cool and weird to be chosen.  I plan to talk about "Our Freedom to 
Speak and Know in the 21st Century" before heading across the bay for 
that evening's Swissnex event. (See "appearances".)

That  San Francisco event, which will  feature a speech from Greg 
Bear at the TransAmeric Pyramid on  Friday, 10/01/04, 7:30pm.
Website is http://www.swissnex.org/event-scifi.html  I'll also be 
attending/speaking there.

October 18 & 19: Speeches on the future of environmentalism and the 
future of Science Fiction, at the Science Fiction Museum in Seattle, 
Washington.

See http://www.davidbrin.com/appearances.html for updates.

Thrive all...
...and please help oust the klepto morons so decent conservatives can 
regain the GOP and Barry Goldwater and Abraham Lincoln can stop 
spinning in their graves.  It's time for the Union to rise up and get 
the clutches of the Confederacy off our government.

A proud Californian (Yay Ah-nold!)
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Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:03:41 -0500
I think it's cooler that after 5 days, the contestant
gets to come back for a 6th, rather than just walk away with a car.
(Some of the cars they've had, I wouldn't want to own.)
What I like about the abolishment of the 5 day limit, is that contestants 
are no longer limited by the powers that be, but rather by themselves, and 
themselves only.

Me

> For me it's kinda like watching the opening credits for The Simpsons and
> seeing the new and innovative ways that the family will deposit 
themselves
> onto the couch - i.e. Ken writing his name in different ways.
>
> -Travis "I'll take Jennings With No End In Sight for $100 Million Alex"
> Edmunds

Reminds me of the joke, "What's the difference between South Park and
Jeopardy!?"
Time slots?
-Travis
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Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?

[Julia Thompson]

Travis Edmunds wrote:
> 
> >From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> >>Me
> 
> > > For me it's kinda like watching the opening credits for The Simpsons and
> > > seeing the new and innovative ways that the family will deposit
> >themselves
> > > onto the couch - i.e. Ken writing his name in different ways.
> > >
> > > -Travis "I'll take Jennings With No End In Sight for $100 Million Alex"
> > > Edmunds
> >
> >Reminds me of the joke, "What's the difference between South Park and
> >Jeopardy!?"
> 
> Time slots?

No, in South Park, Kenny is always dead at the end.  :)

Julia
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Re: Groveling Apologies

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Groveling Apologies
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:23:34 -0700
On Sep 9, 2004, at 3:19 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
William T Goodall wrote:
Sorry about that horrible email barrage there. I screwed up. Too much 
thinking.
I created a mailing list for those of us who'd been at a White House 
conference, which got into a loop, flooding the mailboxes of quite a few 
non-inconsequential people.
So what you're saying is that we *are* inconsequential people?
 Reminds me of Jeffrey Miller - former list member - and his 
little quote of - "I love being inconsequential, it takes all the 
responsibility off me".

-Travis "I hate being inconsequential" Edmunds
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Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is Jennings' 'Jeopardy!' Run Over?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:26:52 -0500

Travis Edmunds wrote:

Julia

> >Reminds me of the joke, "What's the difference between South Park and
> >Jeopardy!?"
>
> Time slots?
No, in South Park, Kenny is always dead at the end.  :)
 Cute.
-Travis
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Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 194, Issue 11

[Travis Edmunds]

From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 194, Issue 11
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:37:13 -0500
Maru wrote:
> Wouldn't the statute of limitations come into play for dereliction
of
> duty during non-war time over thirty years ago? ~Maru
Whoever this is (and it is not me) is going to confuse the crap out of
people.
I just know people are going to confuse this person with me.

I think his first name is Kobyashi, or something like that.
-Travis
_
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Re: Diebold systems contain feature that allows tampering at central tabulator

[The Fool]

> From: Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> On Sep 9, 2004, at 4:39 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
> >
> > On 10 Sep 2004, at 12:19 am, Dave Land wrote:
> >
> >> On Sep 9, 2004, at 3:28 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
> >>
> >>> Perhaps. OTOH more often one needs to solve a particular problem 
> >>> rather than run a particular program.
> >>
> >> and then, moments later,
> >>
> >>> Wouldn't it make more sense to choose an OS first and then pick 
> >>> hardware that would be good for running it?
> >>
> >> Wouldn't it make even more sense to consider the particular (set of)

> >> problem(s) you need to solve, choose the app(s) that might best suit

> >> your need(s), and see what OS(s) support the app(s) you need, and
buy 
> >> whatever hardware (with or without a bundled OS) that would support 
> >> your need(s)?
> >
> > I just meant that out of the ordering of those two choices (OS, 
> > hardware) the OS should be first. And of course there are other
issues 
> > like security and TCO as well as just apps/OS/hardware. And the 
> > fulminating Evil of the Beast of Redmond :)
> 
> Well, I just meant to be a hopeless pedant.
> 
> And be careful what you say about the Beast, or you might wake up its 
> troll -- er, Fool.

When you see me pimping XP or Palladium you will know the apocalypse is
nigh.

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Re: Why bother?

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Maru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why bother?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
After reading the whole of Brin's Uplift novels, I find myself puzzled by 
something: Why undertake the massive, expensive, intricate, and morally 
tricky process of Uplift at all?  There must be some intrinsic reason (that 
is, you can't say 'Because the Progenitors did'. Then why did they begin 
the process?).
Loneliness?
-Travis
_
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Re: Why bother?

[Travis Edmunds]

From: Bryon Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why bother?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:08:41 -0400
On Uplift:
As for why the galactics did it:
I'm thinking the Progenitors did it for the company, (presumably they
were alone in the universe).
I hadn't read this before I posted.
-Travis "thumbs up" Edmunds
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Jebus Runs For President

[The Fool]

<>
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Re: Why bother?

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 12:00 PM, Travis Edmunds wrote:
From: Maru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

After reading the whole of Brin's Uplift novels, I find myself 
puzzled by something: Why undertake the massive, expensive, 
intricate, and morally tricky process of Uplift at all?  There must 
be some intrinsic reason (that is, you can't say 'Because the 
Progenitors did'. Then why did they begin the process?).
Loneliness?
According to some Christian sects, God man Man so He could be 
worshipped and adored.

Since Himself is as steeped in Judeo-Christian mythology as any other 
American native, it shouldn't be too surprising to see aspects of that 
filter into his work.

This handily explains (in the context of Uplift) the actual source of 
all religious mythology on this planet. As to why the progenitors did 
it -- well, why does one climb mountains? Or better still, why did God 
heap so much abuse on Job?

(There are two answers I can think of to that last question, and either 
one is valid for the progenitors as well. One is the reason God reports 
in His talks with Job. The other is much more mundane.)

-- WthmO
I've never held an opinion.
I give them away freely.
--
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Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 194, Issue 11

[Gary Denton]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:24:20 -0230, Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 194, Issue 11
> >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:37:13 -0500
> >
> >Maru wrote:
> > > Wouldn't the statute of limitations come into play for dereliction
> >of
> > > duty during non-war time over thirty years ago? ~Maru
> >
> >
> >Whoever this is (and it is not me) is going to confuse the crap out of
> >people.
> >I just know people are going to confuse this person with me.
> >
> 
> I think his first name is Kobyashi, or something like that.

Boomerangs  -

For not the first time Drudge and the Washington Post were getting
their information from questionable sources.

For information about the forgery accusations and the real
capabilities of standard government issued typewriters in the early
70's see here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603

Source of claims CBS documents faked runs the Conservative Victory Committee
http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=291

Another source is on the board of directors on a conservative think tank.  

The documents may or may not be faked but the media makes that the
story, not that it confirms the documents already released by the
White House.  And why are claims and counterclaims over what happened
in the early 70's the big story?

The last two months the US media has run thousands of words on Vietnam
war claims and counterclaims for every word they have run on Medicare
charges rising at double-digit rates, about more people slipping into
poverty and going without insurance, about a report that Europe has
become more of a land of opportunity and advancement than the U.S.,
that the federal deficit out of control and both candidates proposals
make it worse, tax and health proposals, how both candidates avoid
talking about the future of Iraq, pretty much anything dealing with
how things might be different under each as President.  While I am
interested in Bush's military record as an illustration of part of a
pattern of dishonesty, and partisans on the other side feel the same
way about Kerry's 5 medals for serving, I really think most people
might want to know how this President or that could affect their
lives.

Gary Denton
-- 
#2 on google for liberal news
"I don't try harder"
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Re: Jebus Runs For President

[Dave Land]

Brilliant. Just friggin' brilliant.
Dave
The Ancient Name of Jerusalem?
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Re: Polls

[Robert Seeberger]

William T Goodall wrote:
> On 10 Sep 2004, at 11:28 am, Robert Seeberger wrote:
>
>> With the kind of connectivity that is common over here (they
actually
>> give bandwidth away for free at baseball games)(no kidding) it
rarely
>> enters your mind that you might be causing problems for someone in
>> "the developing world".
>
> http://www.oecd.org/document/60/
> 0,2340,en_2825_495656_2496764_1_1_1_1,00.html
>
> or
>
>   http://makeashorterlink.com/?U15E62249


http://www.internettrafficreport.com/main.htm


Are you trying to prove the irony of my jape?

Didn't know anyone took me that seriously.


xponent
Quality Connections Maru
rob


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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Robert Seeberger]

JDG wrote:
> The ironic thing is that if one had to name the political officials
> who interfered the most in the *final outcome* of the 2000 election
> for Florida's Presidential electors, one would be forced to concede
> that the Top Two are:
>
>
> 1) Al Gore,  a Democrat, who despite claiming to want to "count
every
> vote," only requested a recount in the counties that voted most
> heavily for him, and thus were statistically likely to produce the
> greatest increase in Al Gore's votes.   Ironically, a subsequent
> media analysis indicated that the only recount that would have
> produced a plurality of votes in Florida for Al Gore's electors was
a
> *principled* recount of all Florida counties.
>
> 2) The Florida Supreme Court, with a solid Democratic majority, who
> despite making a ruling on "equal protection grounds", decided to
> only order recounts in the counties that voted most heavily for Al
> Gore  Ironically, a subsequent media analysis indicated that the
only
> recount that would have produced a plurality of votes in Florida for
> Al Gore's electors was a *principled* recount of all Florida
counties.
>
> 3) The Head of Elections for Palm Beach County, also a Democrat, who
> designed the butterfly ballot that arguably may have resulted in a
> number of intended votes for Al Gore being registered as votes for
> Pat Buchanan due to voter confusion and incompetence.
>
> Any other political official in this country had a smaller effect on
> the ultimate outcome than the above Democrats.   I am sure that it
> must really stick in your craw that your own side this to yourself.

So.you admit that Gore actually won the election, but we got Bush
only because of flukes and misteps?


xponent
Resounding Gotcha And Maniacal Laugh Maru
rob


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Re: near future Brin speaking gigs

[Robert Seeberger]

d.brin wrote:
> Afternoon of October 1 at UC Berkeley. I will speak at Sproul Plaza
> on the 40th anniversary of Mario Savio's rant atop a police car,
> which started the famed Berkeley Free Speech Movement. It seems both
> cool and weird to be chosen.  I plan to talk about "Our Freedom to
> Speak and Know in the 21st Century" before heading across the bay
for
> that evening's Swissnex event. (See "appearances".)
>
> That  San Francisco event, which will  feature a speech from Greg
> Bear at the TransAmeric Pyramid on  Friday, 10/01/04, 7:30pm.
> Website is http://www.swissnex.org/event-scifi.html  I'll also be
> attending/speaking there.
>
> October 18 & 19: Speeches on the future of environmentalism and the
> future of Science Fiction, at the Science Fiction Museum in Seattle,
> Washington.
>
>
> See http://www.davidbrin.com/appearances.html for updates.


Is it true you were named GOH for Japan Worldcon next year?

>
>
>
> Thrive all...
>
> ...and please help oust the klepto morons so decent conservatives
can
> regain the GOP and Barry Goldwater and Abraham Lincoln can stop
> spinning in their graves.  It's time for the Union to rise up and
get
> the clutches of the Confederacy off our government.

Bush is from Connecticut, the whole family is a bunch of pretend
southerners.


>
> A proud Californian (Yay Ah-nold!)

What is it you like about the Governator?
I don't hear a whole lot of news from California these days, with the
glut of political and Iraquicentric news taking up all the space.

xponent
Carpetbaggers Maru
rob


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Re: Groveling Apologies

[Robert Seeberger]

Travis Edmunds wrote:
>> From: Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: Groveling Apologies
>> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:23:34 -0700
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2004, at 3:19 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
>>
>>> William T Goodall wrote:
 Sorry about that horrible email barrage there. I screwed up. Too
 much thinking.
>>>
>>> I created a mailing list for those of us who'd been at a White
House
>>> conference, which got into a loop, flooding the mailboxes of quite
>>> a few non-inconsequential people.
>>
>> So what you're saying is that we *are* inconsequential people?
>
>  Reminds me of Jeffrey Miller - former list member - and
his
> little quote of - "I love being inconsequential, it takes all the
> responsibility off me".
>

Speaking of those who have not been seen in a while
Anyone heard from Chad latelyespecially how he is doing.
I worry about my friends when i don't hear from them. :(

xponent
Starships Maru
rob


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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Alberto Monteiro]

Julia Thompson wrote:
>
> I didn't find it particularly funny, either.
>
I once read an analysis that humor is a product of tragedy and time
(1st approximation), or tragedy, time and distance.

As an example, the author of the text quoted a joke about Jewish Slavery 
in Ancient Egypt [very funny], and compared it with Black Slavery in the 
XIX Century [not funny].

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Diebold systems contain feature that allows tampering atcentraltabulator

[Alberto Monteiro]

Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>
> Can't advise there, since I've never run genealogy software of any
> kind. 
>
I run a genealogy program all the time. Except that the genealogy
program that I wrote has now degenerated so much that it's doing
orbit calculations of Jijo's Moons O:-)

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked

[Alberto Monteiro]

Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>
>> 1) Following September 11th, it was clear that letting failed States
>> fester posed a threat to the United States.
>
> Oh quit it. What about North Korea, Pakistan or the rapidly re-emergent
> Russia? I find it baffling that those who advocate bombing the hell out
> if Iraq always seem to blithely overlook these other, much greater and
> more significant threats.
>
Russia? They showed a great restraint in the use of nukes for 50+ years.
In fact, they are the _most_ peace-loving owners of nukes of Earth!

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Alberto Monteiro]

Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>
> Same kind of deal as "Queequeg Airlines flight 402 crashed on departure
> from East Selivinlandia this morning, killing all 500 people aboard,
> including two Americans."
>
> Oh. Well. That makes it all relevant, now doesn't it?
>
When brazilian newspapers were telling the attack of 2001-09-11, they
listed all brazilians [7 or so, IIRC] that were killed. Does it suggest that
they thought that those few brazilians were more important than all the
other victims, or that newspapers want to bring each tragedy closer
to the readers?

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Jebus Runs For President

[Alberto Monteiro]

Dave Land wrote:
>
> The Ancient Name of Jerusalem?
>
I _think_ it was just Salem. Jebus* [the name of the
cananite tribe that occupied it] was added as prefix
when it was conquered by David.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Cheney's Mouth is Evil, Why it Must Be Eradicated

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 10:01:40AM -0700, Dave Land wrote:

> OK, it's getting to be old news by now, but after telling a member of
> Congress to go F*** himself, now the VP is basically saying "Vote for
> us or the terrorists win:"
>
>   "It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on
>   November 2nd, we make the right choice. Because if we make the
>   wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again. That
>   we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the
>   standpoint of the United States"

He has now retracted, ahem, "clarified" this statement (probably afraid
it would get him in trouble with the undecided's).


-- 
Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Robert Seeberger]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>>
>> Same kind of deal as "Queequeg Airlines flight 402 crashed on
>> departure from East Selivinlandia this morning, killing all 500
>> people aboard, including two Americans."
>>
>> Oh. Well. That makes it all relevant, now doesn't it?
>>
> When brazilian newspapers were telling the attack of 2001-09-11,
they
> listed all brazilians [7 or so, IIRC] that were killed. Does it
> suggest that they thought that those few brazilians were more
> important than all the other victims, or that newspapers want to
> bring each tragedy closer
> to the readers?
>
I agree with Alberto.
Stories like that *do* bring it closer to home and remind one why one
should care.
Warren's take on this strikes me as being overly cynical, though both
could be true in some respects in certain situations.


xponent
It's A Paradox, Live With It Maru
rob


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Re: Jebus Runs For President

[Dave Land]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
The Ancient Name of Jerusalem?
I _think_ it was just Salem. Jebus* [the name of the
cananite tribe that occupied it] was added as prefix
when it was conquered by David.
It has been called by many names, of which this is an incomplete list:
- Urushalimum or Urusalim ("Founded by Shalem")
- Salem
- Mount Moriah
- Adonai Urah
- Jebus
- Jerusalem or Yerushalayim
- Zion
- Ir David ("the City of David" - I particularly like that one)
- Ariel ("Lion of God")
- Colonia Aelia Capitolina
- Bayt al-maqdis
- Hierosolyma
- al-Quds
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Outlook Express and quoting

[Robert G. Seeberger]

Last week I found a nifty little program for Outlook Express called OE
Quotefix.

http://home.cs.tum.edu/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

It fixes some of those annoying habits OE has when quoting emails, and
by gosh, it makes emails easier to read. It is also easy to turn
features on and off.
I'm quite pleased with this program, and thought I'd pass the page
along to anyone who might be interested.

xponent
Color Emoticons, What A Concept Maru
rob


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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Dave Land]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:22 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Same kind of deal as "Queequeg Airlines flight 402 crashed on
departure from East Selivinlandia this morning, killing all 500
people aboard, including two Americans."
Oh. Well. That makes it all relevant, now doesn't it?
When brazilian newspapers were telling the attack of 2001-09-11,
they listed all brazilians [7 or so, IIRC] that were killed. Does
it suggest that they thought that those few brazilians were more
important than all the other victims, or that newspapers want to
bring each tragedy closer to the readers?
I agree with Alberto.
Stories like that *do* bring it closer to home and remind one why one
should care.
Warren's take on this strikes me as being overly cynical, though both
could be true in some respects in certain situations.
I think the problem is that "news" outlets think that they have to "make
it local" for viewers to care. I think we're a pretty unusual group in
that we've had several reports here of folks watching the Olympics and
getting other news from networks from countries other than their own.
Frex, the only way I got to see *any* of the Olympic Tae Kwon Do
competition was by watching it on a Mexican station when my family was
in San Diego last month.
Alberto and Warren are both right: it is a cynical ploy by "news"
outlets to drive up ratings, but the justification that it makes it
closer to the viewers is also true.
As no less a media-critic luminary than Nick Arnett often points out,
TV networks often explain that they're "just showing what the public
wants" without bothering to understand that what they show isn't *all*
that the public might want, if they were offered a broader menu.
Dave
Liberal Rubbish Maru
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[William T Goodall]

On 10 Sep 2004, at 11:49 pm, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Same kind of deal as "Queequeg Airlines flight 402 crashed on 
departure
from East Selivinlandia this morning, killing all 500 people aboard,
including two Americans."

Oh. Well. That makes it all relevant, now doesn't it?
When brazilian newspapers were telling the attack of 2001-09-11, they
listed all brazilians [7 or so, IIRC] that were killed. Does it 
suggest that
they thought that those few brazilians were more important than all the
other victims, or that newspapers want to bring each tragedy closer
to the readers?
Or the (apocryphal) story about the Aberdeen Press & Journal Story 
'Aberdeen man feared lost at sea' on the sinking of the Titanic...

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"Our products just aren't engineered for security." - Brian Valentine, 
senior vice president in charge of Microsoft's Windows development 
team.

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Re: Jebus Runs For President

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:31 PM, Dave Land wrote:
On Sep 10, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
The Ancient Name of Jerusalem?
I _think_ it was just Salem. Jebus* [the name of the
cananite tribe that occupied it] was added as prefix
when it was conquered by David.
It has been called by many names, of which this is an incomplete list:
- Urushalimum or Urusalim ("Founded by Shalem")
- Salem
- Mount Moriah
- Adonai Urah
- Jebus
And here I was thinking the "Jebus" was just meant to be a Simpsons 
reference. ;)

-- WthmO
My life got so much easier
after I gave up hope.
--
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Re: Outlook Express and quoting

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:34 PM, Robert G. Seeberger wrote:
Last week I found a nifty little program for Outlook Express called OE
Quotefix.
http://home.cs.tum.edu/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
It fixes some of those annoying habits OE has
It turns OE into Mail.app? Wow!
>;D
-- WthmO
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Re: tragic coincidence or commupance?

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:46 PM, Dave Land wrote:
Alberto and Warren are both right: it is a cynical ploy by "news"
outlets to drive up ratings, but the justification that it makes it
closer to the viewers is also true.
I don't think I'm being excessively cynical. It's sad but if you tell 
an American about an airliner crash that kills a lot of people he'll 
likely make sympathetic noises. If you tell him several of those dead 
were Americans his noises will become more pronounced. And some, if 
they hear no Americans were involved at all, will simply pass right by 
the news. (Look how many Americans were distant from the realities of 
terrorism ... until it hit on US soil.)

This is not a typical sample group, by which I mean that however much 
list members here disagree with one another, those of us who are in the 
US probably truly do give a damn about events overseas. I honestly 
think a significant minority of Americans -- perhaps even a majority -- 
are nowhere near as globally involved, intellectually, emotionally or 
ethically.

-- WthmO
I've never held an opinion.
I give them away freely.
--
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Re: Graham book: Inquiry into 9/11, Saudi ties blocked

[Warren Ockrassa]

On Sep 10, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:

1) Following September 11th, it was clear that letting failed States
fester posed a threat to the United States.
Oh quit it. What about North Korea, Pakistan or the rapidly 
re-emergent
Russia? I find it baffling that those who advocate bombing the hell 
out
if Iraq always seem to blithely overlook these other, much greater and
more significant threats.

Russia? They showed a great restraint in the use of nukes for 50+ 
years.
In fact, they are the _most_ peace-loving owners of nukes of Earth!
No argument there, but I was referring to ... oh, I just get some 
fairly uneasy impressions of late. The last year or so has seen some 
familiar patterns surfacing from "the former USSR".

Probably doesn't mean much. Still, I wonder just how dead 
totalitarianism is on the Eurasian steppes...

-- WthmO
This email is a work of fiction. Any similarity between its contents 
and any truth, entire or partial, is purely coincidental and should not 
be misconstrued.
--

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With Peter Lorre as Gollum L3

[Robert G. Seeberger]

http://ringil.cis.ksu.edu/Tolkien/Movie/lotr.mov


xponent
In Living Black And White Maru
rob


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Re: Outlook Express and quoting

[Robert Seeberger]

Warren Ockrassa wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2004, at 4:34 PM, Robert G. Seeberger wrote:
>
>> Last week I found a nifty little program for Outlook Express called
>> OE Quotefix.
>>
>> http://home.cs.tum.edu/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
>>
>> It fixes some of those annoying habits OE has
>
> It turns OE into Mail.app? Wow!
>

It's also a floor wax and a breath mint.

Hint Hint


xponent
s Maru
rob


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Brin's latest endeavor, THE EXORARIUM

[d.brin]

If interested in seeing my latest creative endeavor, drop by: 
http://www.exorarium.net/

It's a vivid concept, developed with a brilliant tech-artist at UCSD, 
aimed at bringing "first contact" alive for millions of museum 
visitors and online gamers.

Comments welcome.
Hoping you are all thriving.
David Brin
www.davidbrin.com
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Re: Groveling Apologies

[Bryon Daly]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:53:53 -0500, Robert Seeberger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Speaking of those who have not been seen in a while
> Anyone heard from Chad latelyespecially how he is doing.
> I worry about my friends when i don't hear from them. :(

I was just thinking about Chad also... Are you still around, Chad?  
How are you doing?

-bryon
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Kerry's "Shrinking Middle Class" -- Still Shrinking in 2003

[Robert G. Seeberger]

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=249

In our Aug. 3 article , "Kerry's Dubious Economics," we said Kerry
based his claim that "our great middle class is shrinking" on some
pretty stale numbers. We said his statement "may well be untrue"
because it was based on 2002 figures and didn't account for recent
economic growth.  Now fresh numbers are available -- and Kerry's
statement is looking a lot better.

Kerry's other economic statements remain at least as dubious as we
reported. Recent figures show inflation-adjusted hourly earnings
actually went up in July just as Kerry was announcing that "wages are
falling," for example.

However, Kerry's description of a declining middle class is supported
by new Census Bureau figures showing median household income failed to
grow in 2003. And a look at income-distribution tables shows the
decline that took place in middle-income households in 2001 and 2002,
which we previously reported, may well have continued in 2003.



On Aug. 26 the Census Bureau released  its annual survey of income in
the US. These more up-to-date figures show that Kerry may well have
been correct when he said the middle class is shrinking, using present
tense.

There's no standard definition of "middle class," so we looked at
households with pre-tax income of between $25,000 and $75,000 -- a
group occupying roughly the middle half of the Census income
distribution tables. As we noted before, that group grew smaller
during the economic recession of 2001 and the initially slow recovery
of 2002. Now the new Census figures indicate it continued to decline
in 2003, and while this time some of the middle group were moving up ,
a larger portion were moving down.

Since Bush took office, the middle-income group has declined by 1.2
percentage points , and now constitutes less than 45% of all
households.

At the same time, households with less than $25,000 in income have
grown by 1.5 percentage points, and now make up 29% of all households.
So a large number of households have slipped out of the middle group
and into the lower-income range over the past three years.

Furthermore, that process did not stop in 2003 despite the resumption
of job growth in September and 4.4% growth in the economy as measured
by Gross Domestic Product. The middle-income group lost 0.4 percentage
points in 2003.

The upper-income group -- those with income over $75,000 a year -- has
also suffered since Bush took office, declining by 0.4 percentage
points over three years. However, upper-income households bounced back
a bit last year, by two-tenths of a percentage point, and now are back
at just over 26% of all households.

So by this measure, the "middle class" continued to shrink in 2003 ,
and while some "middle class" households moved to the upper-income
group, a larger proportion moved down.

(Note: These figures are subject to some rounding error that could
make any one of them off by a tenth of a percentage point or so.)

Another indicator: the Census Bureau reported that median household
income declined by $63 from 2002 to 2003 , to $43,318. "Median" means
that half of all households had more income than that, and half less.
Census officials characterized the median income figure as "unchanged"
in 2003 because the decline was so small as to be well within the
margin of error.

But even so, median income has declined by $1,535 since Bush took
office , or 3.4 percent. And while the decline leveled off last year
and may even be climbing again in 2004, most households are clearly
worse off economically now than they were when the President was sworn
in.

Another indication that the middle class continued to shrink in 2003
is the increase in the number and percentage of persons living in
poverty. According to the Census Bureau, the number of people living
below the official poverty line grew by 1.3 million in 2003, to 35.9
million. That's nearly 4.3 million more poor persons than when Bush
took office , an increase of nearly 14%.

We of course can't say what the Census Bureau figures will say next ye
ar about what is happening to income and poverty rates in 2004. We do
know that employment has been growing all year, so more people have
jobs. Average wages are rising, too. But prices have been rising even
faster -- especially for food, health care and fuel.

We also don't know what happened to after-tax income in 2003, because
the Census Bureau was unable to complete its annual release of
"alternative measures" of income in time for release with the poverty
and household income figures. The 2003 figures might look better once
the Bush tax cuts are factored in and take-home pay is considered. On
the other hand, we do know that another 1 million persons were without
health insurance in 2003. Since Bush took office, the number without
health insurance has grown by 5.2 million, to 45 million.

Some of Kerry's other claims remain as dubious as before, or even more
so.

Kerry's statement that  "wages are falling" turns out 

Womans Best Friend

[Robert G. Seeberger]

Lets see your cat do this!

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/smartdog.wmv


xponent
Travolta - A Dog Maru
rob


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