Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Damon Agretto]

> As opposed to impeaching someone for a blowjob?

And here I thought it was because he lied under
oath...

Damon.


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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[The Fool]

> From: John D. Giorgis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> This looks like the sort of
> story that, if true, would produce  outrage in the mainstream press -
not
> just on liberal blogs.

You mean like the Washington Post, where this story _Originated_ several
months ago?

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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[John D. Giorgis]

At 08:56 PM 1/11/2004 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I am completely unable to understand why you dismiss this so cavalierly. 

I am not dismissing this cavalierly.  The person being cavalier here is the
former *Clinton* Administration Official who is calling for *impeachment*.
 That's cavalier.

For the record:

1) If there is unreliable information on this List, it is surely
information from a liberal blog reposted by another liberal log and then
reposted here by Brin-l's chief propagandia officer.I am not at all
convinced that I am dealing with a full deck of facts here.

2) I support a law making it illegal for the US to turn over any person of
any sort to countries on the State Dept.'s torture list.

3) Assuming we have all the facts here, it looks like someone screwed up
here.   This should not have happened.   I expect that after a protest from
the Canadian embassy, assuming that all of these facts hold up,  that the
fact that this was a mistake will be admitted.  This looks like the sort of
story that, if true, would produce  outrage in the mainstream press - not
just on liberal blogs.

JDG


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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[John D. Giorgis]

At 08:12 PM 1/11/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote:
>As opposed to impeaching someone for ?

Perjury.

JDG - Not that someone who posts daily complaints objecting to "lying" by
the Administration would understand.
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[The Fool]

> From: John D. Giorgis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> At 02:24 PM 1/11/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote:
>
><
> >>
> >
> >The Maher Arar Case 
> >Impeach George Bush and Richard Cheney. Impeach them now. We are the
> >United States of America. We do not do things like this. 
> 
>  I am personally shocked that the ordinarily sensible Brad DeLong would
> write something like this.

Why?  He has written similarly at least a dozen times in the past few
months.  Brad is an enemy of shrubCo, have no doubt.
 
> Anyhow, I will now humbly wait for all of the Brin-L's resident
liberals to
> point out that interrogtating a foreigner without a lawyer (if indeed
that
> this story is true) does not constitute a "high crime and misdemeanor."

As opposed to impeaching someone for a blowjob?
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[TomFODW]

> Anyhow, I will now humbly wait for all of the Brin-L's resident liberals to
> point out that interrogtating a foreigner without a lawyer (if indeed that
> this story is true) does not constitute a "high crime and misdemeanor."
> 

Don't ever travel in a foreign country in case you get on the wrong side of 
someone official who decides to treat you like we treated this guy. (Heck, if 
Ashcroft has his way much longer, don't travel in this country.)

It's not the "interrogating a foreigner without a lawyer" that's so 
objectionable (even though many court cases say that foreigners arrested in this 
country have some of the same rights as citizens and lawful residents; and, in any 
case, foreigners arrested in this country are entitled by treaty to speak with 
someone from their embassy or consulate; and we don't normally deport them to 
a third country in order to be tortured - what part of "interrogating" is 
that?). We don't arrest people in this country without probable cause. That 
applies to foreigners, too.

Either there are rights for all, or there aren't really RIGHTS for anyone. To 
let this continue risks them deciding to do it to anyone they want for any 
reason - or none. 

I am completely unable to understand why you dismiss this so cavalierly. 



Tom Beck

www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[John D. Giorgis]

At 02:24 PM 1/11/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote:
><
>>
>
>The Maher Arar Case 
>Impeach George Bush and Richard Cheney. Impeach them now. We are the
>United States of America. We do not do things like this. 

 I am personally shocked that the ordinarily sensible Brad DeLong would
write something like this.

Anyhow, I will now humbly wait for all of the Brin-L's resident liberals to
point out that interrogtating a foreigner without a lawyer (if indeed that
this story is true) does not constitute a "high crime and misdemeanor."

JDG 
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Health was Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Kevin Tarr]

At 06:34 PM 1/11/2004, you wrote:
Kevin wrote:

Responding to another list member's ghost post with "hateful, hate filled 
clones": too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your 
lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes 
in my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous 
(very minor) health problems of my own.
Would you be happy to be deported, confined in a tiny cell and tortured 
for what amounts to a hint of a rumor?

Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you.
He wasn't dwelling in his hatred, he was referring to the hatred expressed 
by the Bush administration by taking these extreme, fascist, racist 
measures.  He's asking if we all think it's OK to combat people like bin 
Laden and Hussain by becoming more like them.  What do you think?  Do we 
just avert our eyes?

--
Doug
Who hopes both you and your cat are better soon, the pipes aren't broken 
and you've got a good movie or two you can watch while the cable's out. 8^)
For myself I'll only get better when I die. (Not saying I believe in life 
after death, just the release from ills and pain part; and I don't expect 
that to happen for another 60 years. I have no major problems, just the 
little ones that can't get better.) The cat, I don't know. He's 14 at least 
(shelter rescue). I started giving him Iam's diet food. He has lost a lot 
of weight but now seems to be having hair-ball problems. I'm used to cats 
throwing up, but this one never had before this. I don't want to give 
details, just not fun.

My pipes unfroze about an hour ago. They freeze every year and have not 
burst. It's just poor house design. The kitchen is on the back porch. Only 
the attic has insulation; the pipes run right to an outside wall then up, 
right above the outside basement door so lots of cold areas. Last summer I 
rewrapped the heat tape but still doesn't help on 5 F nights. Friday night 
they were free, but I should have run the hot water until hot water came 
out. I won't let it drip overnight, it does not help.

And the cable got fixed today. I knew what the problem was and it took the 
guy five minutes. Where the cable comes down, outside between my house and 
the next, the cable end was bad and every time the neighbors took their 
garbage out or the kids running there, it got knocked loose. On Thursday, 
while I was home, it went out and I heard the neighbors. I came out to ask 
them to please watch the cable, but they were already in their car and 
gone. I went to put it back in but the internal cable had broken. Now, I 
know how to fix it, I was a TV repairman for three years. But for the 
amount of money Comcast charges, that I had called them twice already about 
it, and other BS I decided to call them again. Plus I have satellite and 
was working during Saturday's football games so no biggy.

Now: I'm watching my attempt of making Cordon Blue go horribly wrong. And a 
woman I've been talking with for two months just stopped communicating, no 
reason just a "I do not wish to pursue this anymore" message; I got it 20 
minutes ago.

Kevin T.
Suddenly tired
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 05:34 PM 1/11/04, Doug Pensinger wrote:

Who hopes both you and your cat are better soon, the pipes aren't broken 
and you've got a good movie or two you can watch while the cable's out. 8^)


I was going to say the same thing, but I guess I'll just say, "Me, too!"



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Kevin Tarr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Extraordinary Rendition


> Responding to another list member's ghost post with "hateful, hate
filled
> clones": too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and
your
> lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with
pipes in
> my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and
numerous
> (very minor) health problems of my own.
>
> Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you.

Well, Would you sign *your* name on this guys treatment?

You know, this is not the first time this guys story has shown up on
this list.
I am just surprised that this is still going on.


xponent
Not As Angry As Tom, But Just As Disgusted Maru
rob


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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Doug Pensinger]

Kevin wrote:

Responding to another list member's ghost post with "hateful, hate 
filled clones": too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you 
and your lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even 
with pipes in my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick 
and numerous (very minor) health problems of my own.
Would you be happy to be deported, confined in a tiny cell and tortured 
for what amounts to a hint of a rumor?

Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you.
He wasn't dwelling in his hatred, he was referring to the hatred expressed 
by the Bush administration by taking these extreme, fascist, racist 
measures.  He's asking if we all think it's OK to combat people like bin 
Laden and Hussain by becoming more like them.  What do you think?  Do we 
just avert our eyes?

--
Doug
Who hopes both you and your cat are better soon, the pipes aren't broken 
and you've got a good movie or two you can watch while the cable's out. 8^)
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[TomFODW]

> Perhaps you arrest and tort..., ah,
> thoroughly interrogate 99 basically innocent profilees to snare a single
> operative or active supporter.
> 

We. Don't. Torture. Period. Besides being despicable, it almost never works. 
Most people will say ANYTHING to stop being tortured.

I understand the "ticking timebomb" argument (not that I agree with it), but 
that can hardly apply to a situation where you basically torture anyone you 
can find without any probable cause at all.

To some extent, a war against terror requires some necessary if distasteful 
tradeoffs. I think what is going on at the moment goes WAY far beyond the bare 
minimum necessary. I think Bush and Ashcroft have contempt for civil liberties 
and are overjoyed to have an excuse to do what they want to anyway. 

If distasteful methods sometimes have to be utilized in the field, under the 
exigencies of an ongoing operation or a well reasoned fear that an attack is 
imminent, well, maybe (although it makes it difficult if not impossible to 
complain if and when the other side treats your people the same way). But that 
clearly did not happen in this case. They arrested the guy for almost no reason, 
interrogated him, had absolutely no reason to think he was any kind of 
terrorist - and had him tortured anyway. Practicalities aside, why doesn't that 
infuriate you? How can you defend treating the guy this way?



Tom Beck

www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[TomFODW]

> Responding to another list member's ghost post with "hateful, hate filled
> clones": too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your
> lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes in
> my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous
> (very minor) health problems of my own.
> 

I'm not filled with hate - I'm angry. I think what Bush and his maniacs are 
doing to this country is dangerous and despicable. I think what they did to 
that poor Canadian was outrageous and frightening. How come when right-wingers 
scream, that's okay, but when liberals get angry, that's not?



Tom Beck

www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Trent Shipley]

On Sunday 2004-01-11 13:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> This guy did nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the
> planes into the Twin Towers by wire. 

Now the problem is that you cannot be certain he was not important until AFTER 
his, er, thorough interogation by third parties.

Israeli and American intelligence experts are telling the press that the odds 
of infiltrating Islamist Nonstate Violent Groups is essentially nil.  Either 
they need to become so unpopular amoung their indigenous base that INVGs 
become non-viable OR you pursue them through interrogation based intelligence 
(or citizens become squemish about abusive police practices and interogation 
techniques, learning to live in a significantly more dangerous world...).

A big problem with interogation based intelligence is that you need to sift 
though a lot of noise to find signal.  Perhaps you arrest and tort..., ah, 
thoroughly interrogate 99 basically innocent profilees to snare a single 
operative or active supporter.

[
Operative: member of group
Active Supporter: gives aid or comfort
Passive Supporter: (neither participates or supports, but is passively 
sympathetic)
]


There *IS* a very real trade off between liberty and security.

SOOO...

The main complaints have been about citizens of close allies, eg the UK or 
Canada.  One rather expects them to retaliate.  How long until they decide to 
render or indefinitely detain US Citizens?  [Would the Bushies care?]

How long until they warn their businessmen and tourists that visiting the US 
isn't safe?

How long until they stop sharing anti-terrorist intel in retaliation?
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[Kevin Tarr]

At 03:41 PM 1/11/2004, you wrote:
> It is time someone asked. What our government did to Maher Arar is worse
> than anything the British did to our Colonial forefathers. It was worse
> than anything J. Edgar Hoover did to alleged Communists, civil rights
> workers and anti-war activists during his long program of dirty tricks.
>
Wasting your time. There is not a single right-wing fanatic on this list (or
in dittoland) who will give a damn about what we did to this poor bastard.
It's far too easy to scream "war against terror" to justify anything they 
want to
do or cover up. The fact that Bush and Ashcroft between them are in the
process of jettisoning much of what makes America WORTH defending in the 
first
place is completely lost on Rush and his hateful, hate-filled clones. This 
is why
Dubya is the worst president we've ever had, and John Ashcroft is by far the
worst Attorney-General (by such a far margin that he makes Edwin Meese and 
John
Mitchell look almost acceptable by comparison).

I know this sounds inflammatory and I don't care. I don't see how anyone can
defend men who can perpetrate such an outrageous injustice. There is nothing
that justifies this, nothing at all. If we can't defeat our enemies by any
other means than by becoming them, then we don't deserve to win. This guy did
nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the planes into the 
Twin
Towers by wire. George Bush and John Ashcroft are the worst kind of scum - 
men
who hide despicable actions behind airy, lofty motives. They don't even have
the guts to admit their villainy.



Tom Beck
Responding to another list member's ghost post with "hateful, hate filled 
clones": too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your 
lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes in 
my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous 
(very minor) health problems of my own.

Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you.

Kevin T. - VRWC
I prefer ditto (as in D. Brin's novel)
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Re: Extraordinary Rendition

[TomFODW]

> It is time someone asked. What our government did to Maher Arar is worse
> than anything the British did to our Colonial forefathers. It was worse
> than anything J. Edgar Hoover did to alleged Communists, civil rights
> workers and anti-war activists during his long program of dirty tricks.
> 

Wasting your time. There is not a single right-wing fanatic on this list (or 
in dittoland) who will give a damn about what we did to this poor bastard. 
It's far too easy to scream "war against terror" to justify anything they want to 
do or cover up. The fact that Bush and Ashcroft between them are in the 
process of jettisoning much of what makes America WORTH defending in the first 
place is completely lost on Rush and his hateful, hate-filled clones. This is why 
Dubya is the worst president we've ever had, and John Ashcroft is by far the 
worst Attorney-General (by such a far margin that he makes Edwin Meese and John 
Mitchell look almost acceptable by comparison). 

I know this sounds inflammatory and I don't care. I don't see how anyone can 
defend men who can perpetrate such an outrageous injustice. There is nothing 
that justifies this, nothing at all. If we can't defeat our enemies by any 
other means than by becoming them, then we don't deserve to win. This guy did 
nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the planes into the Twin 
Towers by wire. George Bush and John Ashcroft are the worst kind of scum - men 
who hide despicable actions behind airy, lofty motives. They don't even have 
the guts to admit their villainy. 



Tom Beck

www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Extraordinary Rendition

[The Fool]

<<http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/003029.html>
>

The Maher Arar Case 
Impeach George Bush and Richard Cheney. Impeach them now. We are the
United States of America. We do not do things like this. 

Christopher Pyle writes about the Maher Arar case: 

<<http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MET1.D
TL&type=printable>>

Torture by proxy / How immigration threw a traveler to the wolves: On
Sept. 26, 2002, U.S. immigration officials seized a Syrian-born Canadian
at Kennedy International Airport, because his name had come up on an
international watch list for possible terrorists. What happened next is
chilling. 

Maher Arar was about to change planes on his way home to Canada after
visiting his wife's family in Tunisia when he was pulled aside for
questioning. He was not a terrorist. He had no terrorist connections, but
his name was on the list, so he was detained for questioning. Not
ordinary, polite questioning, but abusive, insulting, degrading
questioning by the immigration service, the FBI and the New York City
Police Department. 

He asked for a lawyer and was told he could not have one. He asked to
call his family, but phone calls were not permitted. Instead, he was
clapped into shackles and, for several days, made to "disappear." His
family was frantic. 

Finally, he was allowed to make a call. His government expected that
Arar's right of safe passage under its passport would be respected. But
it wasn't. Arar denied any connection to terrorists. He was not accused
of any crimes, but U.S. agents wanted him questioned further by someone
whose methods might be more persuasive than theirs. 

So, they put Arar on a private plane and flew him to Washington, D.C.
There, a new team, presumably from the CIA, took over and delivered him,
by way of Jordan, to Syrian interrogators. This covert operation was
legal, our Justice Department later claimed, because Arar is also a
citizen of Syria by birth. The fact that he was a Canadian traveling on a
Canadian passport, with a wife, two children and job in Canada, and had
not lived in Syria for 16 years, was ignored. The Justice Department
wanted him to be questioned by Syrian military intelligence, whose
interrogation methods our government has repeatedly condemned. 

The Syrians locked Arar in an underground cell the size of a grave: 3
feet wide, 6 feet long, 7 feet high. Then they questioned him, under
torture, repeatedly, for 10 months. Finally, when it was obvious that
their prisoner had no terrorist ties, they let him go, 40 pounds lighter,
with a pronounced limp and chronic nightmares. 

Why was Arar on our government's watch list? Because "multiple
international intelligence agencies" had linked him to terrorist groups.
How many agencies? Two. What had they reported? Not much. 

The Syrians believed that Arar might be a member of the Muslim
Brotherhood. Why? Because a cousin of his mother's had been, nine years
earlier, long after Arar moved to Canada. The Royal Canadian Mounted
Police reported that the lease on Arar's apartment had been witnessed by
a Syrian- born Canadian who was believed to know an Egyptian Canadian
whose brother was allegedly mentioned in an al Qaeda document. 

That's it. That's all they had: guilt by the most remote of computer-
generated associations. But, according to Attorney General John Ashcroft,
that was more than enough to justify Arar's delivery to Syria's
torturers. 

Besides, Ashcroft added, the torturers had expressly promised that they
would not torture him. 

Our intelligence agencies have a name for this torture-by-proxy. They
call it "extraordinary rendition." As one intelligence official
explained: "We don't kick the s -- out of them. We send them to other
countries so they can kick the s -- out of them." 

This secret program for torturing suspects has been authorized, if that
is the right word for it, by a secret presidential finding. Where the
president gets the authority to have anyone tortured has never been
explained. 

It is time someone asked. What our government did to Maher Arar is worse
than anything the British did to our Colonial forefathers. It was worse
than anything J. Edgar Hoover did to alleged Communists, civil rights
workers and anti-war activists during his long program of dirty tricks. 

According to the Bush administration, we are at "war" with al Qaeda. If
so, then delivering a suspect to torturers is a war crime and should be
prosecuted as such. But first, we need to know who was responsible, and
that will not be easy -- unless there is a firestorm of protest. 

Isn't it time to condemn torture by proxy and demand prosecution of the
persons responsible? Isn't it time to question how these watch lists are
assembled and used, before more of us fall victim to secret detentions
and brutal interrogations ba