NASA Finds Hydrocarbons on Saturn's Moon Hyperion

[Ronn! Blankenship]

BP purchases drilling rights . . .




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Re: Hyperion

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 2/15/06, Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> I was on the fence about them because it seemed to me that Simmons'
> editor was letting him get far too verbose in some sections, probably
> adding a good 50+ pages of fluff between the two Endymion books,
> which made sections of them drag.  And then I also have a pet peeve
> about authors who change the established rules of their universe
> because it's convenient (that's why I think Goodkind's pretty much a
> hack, excepting the first and sixth SoT books), which I felt Simmons
> did a fair amount of. But the last 50-100 pages of _Rise of Endymion_
> I found to be incredibly affecting, and they rescued the series for
> me.
>
> Jim

Going off on a tangent here... you liked Faith of the Fallen? Ugh. I
was disgusted when I realized I was reading a *bad* rehash of Ayn
Rand- if I wanted Randian ideologues spouting off in fiction at me,
I'll go to the source, thank you every much. Totally spoiled the
series for me.

~Maru
One was just plain awesome though.
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Re: Hyperion

[Jim Sharkey]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>The story of Rachel was unbelievably touching and sad.

No question.  I was completely absorbed in her tale.  I suppose being
a parent myself added a dimension to that as well.  It was like
watching Alzheimer's in reverse, a comparison I think Sol makes as 
well.

>I felt that in the Endemyon books he had jumped the shark (or to be 
>more accurate the Shrike).

"Jumped the Shrike" made me chuckle aloud.  That should be the 
official expression for SF/Fantasy that's jumped the shark.  Spread 
the word!

>I enjoyed these books but they were totally different in tone 
>and style.

I was on the fence about them because it seemed to me that Simmons' 
editor was letting him get far too verbose in some sections, probably 
adding a good 50+ pages of fluff between the two Endymion books, 
which made sections of them drag.  And then I also have a pet peeve 
about authors who change the established rules of their universe 
because it's convenient (that's why I think Goodkind's pretty much a 
hack, excepting the first and sixth SoT books), which I felt Simmons 
did a fair amount of. But the last 50-100 pages of _Rise of Endymion_ 
I found to be incredibly affecting, and they rescued the series for 
me.

Jim

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Re: Hyperion

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 2/14/2006 12:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> What I found interesting about the first two books was not the SF 
> portions of it nearly as much as the *human* portions.  The stories of
> the pilgrims were all gripping, and that's what I liked about Hyperion
> more than the future conflicts and all.  It was the people in the 
> books, not the events surrounding them, that really spoke to me.  In 
> fact, to some extent Simmons' insistent EYKIW's (everything you know 
> is wrong) in Endymion irked me, and I felt cheapened the first two a 
> little bit.  I still liked them, but for different reasons and 
> certainly not as much as the Cantos.
> 

I agree. I thought the first two books were about the people. The story of 
Rachel was unbelievably touching and sad. At the end of "Fall"  I thought that 
Simmons had wrapped everything up wonderfully. I felt that in the Endemyon  
books he had jumped the shark (or to be more accurate the Shrike). I enjoyed 
these books but they were totally different in tone and style.  Much more good 
but 
not unique sf. At first I was angry but then I realized that one has to be 
realistic. Simmons is a professional writer. He had created a universe and 
characters that were of value so why not use them?



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Re: Hyperion

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 2/14/06, Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hrm.  I think after reading the Endymion books I'd have to add a
> fourth line, wherein the Shrike is there to protect Aenea, possibly
> sent by those in the Void.  Though it could be an intercepted and
> altered Shrike from the UIs, or sent by the human UI to defend its
> third part.

The difficulty with this is, what was that fourth Shrike doing while
the other three were messing around with the pilgrims and various
political situations? I'd suggest that this was the Reaper faction AI-
since when you think about it, what Aenea did was to upset the status
quo, rip the TechnoCore out of their comfortable dead-end evolutionary
niche (forcing them out into unsearched evolutionary fitness
landscapes, laden with Lions and Tigers, and Bears oh my!); which is
exactly what Ray's reaper functions did on a smaller scale.

> The other three you listed make reasonable sense; however, I will
> admit that I never considered the various Shrikes to be separate
> timelines as much as they were foci in the war to establish one
> future.  That is, they were developed by one faction then co-opted by
> the various factions in their struggles.

That makes sense too- one Shrike and  one set of Time Tombs, not a
couple co-valent ones phasing in and out, if that makes sense-
intermittently controlled by different factions. I'm not completely
sure because I seem to remember some incidents which had to take place
simultaneously, but since I can't remember what those were, I'll drop
this.

> What I found interesting about the first two books was not the SF
> portions of it nearly as much as the *human* portions.  The stories of
> the pilgrims were all gripping, and that's what I liked about Hyperion
> more than the future conflicts and all.  It was the people in the
> books, not the events surrounding them, that really spoke to me.  In
> fact, to some extent Simmons' insistent EYKIW's (everything you know
> is wrong) in Endymion irked me, and I felt cheapened the first two a
> little bit.  I still liked them, but for different reasons and
> certainly not as much as the Cantos.

The focus in Endymion was on Raul and Aenea, who just couldn't carry
that sort of load- it took at least 6 interesting characters from all
sorts of genres and everything Simmons could warp and borrow from
Kelly's Out of Control to make the first two, and the second two just
didn't have that sort of firepower.
Endymion still made me fairly happy because it included a decent quota
of new and interesting and farout ideas, but there were far more in
the Hyperions.

> Jim
> Listening to the living Maru

~Maru
Listening to the music of the spheres
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Re: Hyperion

[Jim Sharkey]

Maru Dubshinki wrote:
>I never thought of putting it in per-character terms. I always broke
>it down into factions- ie. you had the first timeline, in which
>TechnoCore and humand warred, which sent back Mnemosyne; you had the
>other timeline with the twin UIs, which dispatched one of the 
>shrikes, and you had a third faction which sent back yet *another* 
>shrike t fetch Weintraub's daughter (which I suspect to have been 
>the Reaper faction). At least, three timelines made the most sense 
>to me. I'd be interested to hear your thinking on it.

Hrm.  I think after reading the Endymion books I'd have to add a 
fourth line, wherein the Shrike is there to protect Aenea, possibly
sent by those in the Void.  Though it could be an intercepted and 
altered Shrike from the UIs, or sent by the human UI to defend its 
third part.

The other three you listed make reasonable sense; however, I will 
admit that I never considered the various Shrikes to be separate 
timelines as much as they were foci in the war to establish one
future.  That is, they were developed by one faction then co-opted by 
the various factions in their struggles.

What I found interesting about the first two books was not the SF 
portions of it nearly as much as the *human* portions.  The stories of
the pilgrims were all gripping, and that's what I liked about Hyperion
more than the future conflicts and all.  It was the people in the 
books, not the events surrounding them, that really spoke to me.  In 
fact, to some extent Simmons' insistent EYKIW's (everything you know 
is wrong) in Endymion irked me, and I felt cheapened the first two a 
little bit.  I still liked them, but for different reasons and 
certainly not as much as the Cantos.

Jim
Listening to the living Maru

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Re: Hyperion (was RE: Take The Catholic Geocentrism Challenge)

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 2/13/06, Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fair enough.  Well, I think the Rachel/Kassad timelines diverge and
> converge at times, so that's one-and-half or two, depending on your
> POV.  I'd say Brawne Lamia's timeline could be thought of as
> another, while Het Masteen's could be third.
>
> But that's only thoughts after the fact.  Certainly the pilgrims
> share a common past, and while they seem to have possibly divergent
> futures, I never really thought of their futures as separate
> timelines.  But then, metaphysics has never been my strong suit.  :)
>
> Jim

I never thought of putting it in per-character terms. I always broke
it down into factions- ie. you had the first timeline, in which
TechnoCore and humand warred, which sent back Mnemosyne; you had the
other timeline with the twin UIs, which dispatched one of the shrikes,
and you had a third faction which sent back yet *another* shrike to
fetch Weintraub's daughter (which I suspect to have been the Reaper
faction). At least, three timelines made the most sense to me. I'd be
interested to hear your thinking on it.

~Maru
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Re: Hyperion (was RE: Take The Catholic Geocentrism Challenge)

[Jim Sharkey]

Maru Dubshinki wrote:
>I don't like to use those terms, since it makes the various
>world-lines sound less real and influential than they were.

Fair enough.  Well, I think the Rachel/Kassad timelines diverge and 
converge at times, so that's one-and-half or two, depending on your 
POV.  I'd say Brawne Lamia's timeline could be thought of as 
another, while Het Masteen's could be third.

But that's only thoughts after the fact.  Certainly the pilgrims 
share a common past, and while they seem to have possibly divergent
futures, I never really thought of their futures as separate 
timelines.  But then, metaphysics has never been my strong suit.  :)

Jim

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Re: Hyperion (was RE: Take The Catholic Geocentrism Challenge)

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 2/13/06, Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Maru Dubshinki wrote:
> >Jim Sharkey wrote:
> >> Anyone feel like having, I dunno, and actual book discussion on
> >>this here ostensibly SF literature list?  :)
> >I'll take you up on that challenge.
>
> Uh-oh!  :)
>
> >How many different timelines do you think were interacting in the
> >first two books?
>
> Do you mean in terms of alternate/possible futures?
>
> Jim

I don't like to use those terms, since it makes the various
world-lines sound less real and influential than they were.

~Maru
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Re: Hyperion (was RE: Take The Catholic Geocentrism Challenge)

[Jim Sharkey]

Maru Dubshinki wrote:
>Jim Sharkey wrote:
>> Anyone feel like having, I dunno, and actual book discussion on 
>>this here ostensibly SF literature list?  :)
>I'll take you up on that challenge.

Uh-oh!  :)

>How many different timelines do you think were interacting in the
>first two books?

Do you mean in terms of alternate/possible futures?

Jim



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Re: Hyperion (was RE: Take The Catholic Geocentrism Challenge)

[Maru Dubshinki]

On 2/13/06, Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The Fool wrote:
> >Teilhard de Chardin
>
> Courtesy of the hearty recommendations of _Hyperion_ by all of you,
> I actually know who this guy is!  :-)  The local library *finally*
> had a copy of _Hyperion Cantos_, and I recently finished it.  While
> the two Endymion books have gotten a trifle self-indulgent IMO,
> _Hyperion_ and _Fall of Hyperion_ were excellent, and I thank the Brin
> list for pointing me toward them.  Not to mention any number of other
> tasty books!
>
> Anyone feel like having, I dunno, and actual book discussion on this
> here ostensibly SF literature list?  :)
>
> Jim
> Silly Optimist Maru

I'll take you up on that challenge.
How many different timelines do you think were interacting in the
first two books? (IMO, this is one of the fundamental questions for
the Hyperion Cantos).

Incidentally, if any of you are interested in the TechnoCore AI Ummon,
I wrote a kick-ass article on the original Ummon at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunmen_Wenyan

~Maru
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Hyperion (was RE: Take The Catholic Geocentrism Challenge)

[Jim Sharkey]

The Fool wrote:
>Teilhard de Chardin 

Courtesy of the hearty recommendations of _Hyperion_ by all of you,
I actually know who this guy is!  :-)  The local library *finally*
had a copy of _Hyperion Cantos_, and I recently finished it.  While
the two Endymion books have gotten a trifle self-indulgent IMO, 
_Hyperion_ and _Fall of Hyperion_ were excellent, and I thank the Brin
list for pointing me toward them.  Not to mention any number of other
tasty books!

Anyone feel like having, I dunno, and actual book discussion on this 
here ostensibly SF literature list?  :)

Jim
Silly Optimist Maru

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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture - Illium the book

[Bemmzim]

Just finished Simmons newest. Liked it quite alot. Like Hyperion it is part 1 of a 2 
parter. The first uses the Illiad the second the Oddysea (probably speled both of 
these classics). Nice mix of fiction and mythology. Three apparently seperate stories 
that come together at the end. Still have no idea where it will end. Does not in my 
opinion measure up to Hyperion but that is not a knock really.
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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Erik Reuter]

On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 05:11:35PM -0500, Robert Seeberger wrote:
> Maybe I Should Read The Book Maru

Book*S*. _Hyperion_ and _Fall of Hyperion_ -- they are really parts I & II,
they don't stand on their own.

Hopefully they don't try to cram _Endymion_ and _Rise of Endymion_ in,
too, that would be too much even for a movie trilogy.



-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Robert Seeberger]

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=15798


Hi Harry-

Lorrimer here. You've posted a couple of tidbits from me in the past. This
one isn't a big secret or anything, but I haven't seen anything about it yet
on your site.

Dan Simmon's Hyperion saga is one of the best series of science fiction
novels in the last several years, if not ever. It's not really a series;
it's two long stories each split into two books. Amazing characters, amazing
literary references, amazing prose, and one of the most amazing far-future
human civilization concepts ever. Mind-blowing stuff. I've always assumed
there was no way this could be made into a movie -- the plot is broad and
complex (almost to the point of incomprehensibility at times), the amount of
CGI that would be necessary is staggering, and the themes are profoundly
mature.

Dan Simmons spoke at the University Bookstore in Seattle a few nights ago.
Among a bunch of great stuff, he told us that the screen rights for the
Hyperion saga have been sold to a major studio -- and that a major star and
major director are in talks for a trilogy of movies based on the Hyperion
saga. He pointed out that this is the movie business and anything can
happen; nothing is definite. He told us that he's not allowed to announce
who it is.

But he is allowed to give hints. And he gave us a pretty solid goddamn hint.

He said the director and star did a movie together very recently. He said
something about it being a movie with an extravagant budget. And then he
said, and I'm attempting to quote him from memory, it was a movie "about
some gangs in some city somewhere."

Is Martin Scorsese directing Leonardo DiCaprio in a fucking trilogy of
movies based on the Hyperion saga?

If so, if this actually happens, it may be the first real attempt to do with
the science fiction genre what Peter Jackson is trying to do with the
fantasy genre with Lord of the Rings. Adapt a major genre epic, do it right,
don't dumb it down, use cutting-edge technology to attempt something always
considered impossible. God, I hope this is what's happening.



More on the site



xponent

Maybe I Should Read The Book Maru

rob


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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 12:09:40PM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote:

> I have the story in pdb format saved on my home computer.  (That's
> a Palmdoc format, which can be read with PalmReader or MobiPocket
> software on your PDA.)  If you'd like, I'll see if I can convert it to
> text and email it to you. (Or I can just send the pdb)

Thanks for the offer, but that's not necessary. I'll add the Simmons
anthology book you mentioned to my reading list.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[G. D. Akin]

Erik Reuter wrote:




> I liked them. Rafting down the endless river was a great idea.

Yeah!  I enjoyed the trip very much.

> Yes, Simmons best work.

Concur!

> I guess it will never happen. Hyperion is too high concept to make a
> viable movie. If by some chance it is made, it will surely be dumbed
> down and much of the story will need to be cut.

To make this for the widescreen, it would have to be dumbed way down.
However, based on what the SciFi channel did for "Dune" and "Children of
Dune", they could do a credible job keeping at the original intent and
intellectual level of the books.  Done right and completely, it could be
longer than (and just as good as) Shogun.  Done right, I would enjoy this
immensely.

George A



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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Jon Gabriel]

From: Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:14:14 -0400
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 01:05:52AM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote:

> I know I'm in the list minority when I say this, but I would also
> highly recommend Endymion and Rise of Endymion as well
I liked them. Rafting down the endless river was a great idea.
I was glad he brought the Tethys back and made it a part of the last few 
books. Thought it was an utterly fascinating concept.

> as the final coda story entitled "Orphans of the Helix" which may be
> hard to find.
I didn't know it existed. Where did you find it?
I first spotted it in an anthology of scifi short stories whose name escapes 
me.  I'll find and post the name tonight.  Interestingly enough, that book 
also has an Uplift coda story by Dr. Brin which explains what happened to 
Peepoe and the Jijo Dolphins and an OSC Ender story.

According to Amazon, Orphans of the Helix is also one of the five short 
stories in Worlds Enough & Time : Five Tales of Speculative Fiction by Dan 
Simmons.

I have the story in pdb format saved on my home computer.  (That's a Palmdoc 
format, which can be read with PalmReader or MobiPocket software on your 
PDA.)  If you'd like, I'll see if I can convert it to text and email it to 
you. (Or I can just send the pdb)

OotH isn't as action-packed as the two Endymion books but it does fill in a 
few minor details.  :)



> > A good film adaptation could be eye-popping and mind-blowing. But
> > since when has Scorsese shown any interest in skiffy?
>
> Who cares? *grin* He'd be awesome at it. ;-)
I guess it will never happen. Hyperion is too high concept to make a
viable movie. If by some chance it is made, it will surely be dumbed
down and much of the story will need to be cut.
I can see Endymion as a stand-alone movie.  But I agree, Hyperion and Fall 
would be nearly impossible to transfer properly to the big screen.

Jon

Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com

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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Bemmzim]

> > I can see Endymion as a stand-alone movie.  But I agree, Hyperion and Fall 
> would be nearly impossible to transfer properly to the big screen.
> 

That is what they said about LOR. Just get Peter Jackson to devote a few years to the 
project
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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 01:05:52AM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote:

> I know I'm in the list minority when I say this, but I would also
> highly recommend Endymion and Rise of Endymion as well

I liked them. Rafting down the endless river was a great idea. 

> as the final coda story entitled "Orphans of the Helix" which may be
> hard to find.

I didn't know it existed. Where did you find it?

> I think the entire series was just incredible and it's on my personal
> top ten as well.

Yes, Simmons best work.

> > A good film adaptation could be eye-popping and mind-blowing. But
> > since when has Scorsese shown any interest in skiffy?
>
> Who cares? *grin* He'd be awesome at it. ;-)

I guess it will never happen. Hyperion is too high concept to make a
viable movie. If by some chance it is made, it will surely be dumbed
down and much of the story will need to be cut.

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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Russell Chapman]

Erik Reuter wrote:

I guess it will never happen. Hyperion is too high concept to make a
viable movie. If by some chance it is made, it will surely be dumbed
down and much of the story will need to be cut.
As good as the the Hyperion universe is, what makes these books so 
compelling is the prose itself - and there's no way Hollywood is ever 
going to honour these books properly. I agree that it would have to be 
seriously cut and dumbed down to be made, so I actually hope it never is 
made...

Cheers
Russell C.
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RE: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[Jon Gabriel]

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:49 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture
> 
> > Maybe I Should Read The Book Maru
> >
> 
> No maybe. I'd put Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion up there with The Anubis
> Gates,
> His Dark Materials, and just a very few others as among the ten best
books
> I've
> ever read.

I know I'm in the list minority when I say this, but I would also highly
recommend Endymion and Rise of Endymion as well as the final coda story
entitled "Orphans of the Helix" which may be hard to find.  Many people
feel they weren't as good as H and FOH, but I did enjoy them immensely.
(Plus, they answered a ton of questions and enigmas raised in the first
two books.)

I think the entire series was just incredible and it's on my personal
top ten as well.  

> I consider Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion to be essentially one book that
got
> published in two parts. I remember reading Hyperion and coming to the
end
> and
> thinking - huh? Wha hoppen? That's IT? I did not know that it
immediately
> continued in Fall of Hyperion; which, fortunately, I was able to find
a
> copy of almost
> the next day and thus was not doomed to hellish frustration.

Worth noting (don't worry... this isn't a spoiler): FOH is told from a
totally different perspective and literary style.  It also takes a
certain 'poetic' theme and weaves it deeply into the narrative which is
followed up and explained more fully in the final book. 

> A good film adaptation could be eye-popping and mind-blowing. But
since
> when
> has Scorsese shown any interest in skiffy?

Who cares? *grin*  He'd be awesome at it. ;-) 

I wonder who would play Kassad or FC de Soya.  

:-)

Jon
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Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture

[TomFODW]

> Maybe I Should Read The Book Maru
> 

No maybe. I'd put Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion up there with The Anubis Gates, 
His Dark Materials, and just a very few others as among the ten best books I've 
ever read.

I consider Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion to be essentially one book that got 
published in two parts. I remember reading Hyperion and coming to the end and 
thinking - huh? Wha hoppen? That's IT? I did not know that it immediately 
continued in Fall of Hyperion; which, fortunately, I was able to find a copy of almost 
the next day and thus was not doomed to hellish frustration.

A good film adaptation could be eye-popping and mind-blowing. But since when 
has Scorsese shown any interest in skiffy?



Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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