Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
At 02:49 PM 12/6/02 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: who once used an 8-sider to determine sides for a Trivial Pursuit game I have a pair of 10-sided dice (one labelled 0-9, the other 00-90) that I keep in a pocket in my grade book. Sometimes, e.g., when I am giving back a test that everyone complained was too hard, I pull them out and offer the members of the class a choice: you can have the grade you made on the test, or you can roll the dice and take the total as your grade. So far, everyone has decided to take the grade they made rather than taking a chance on the dice . . . (FWIW, I bought them not at a gaming store but at a teachers' supply store.) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/24/2002 7:25:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A person who puts dice in their juicebox is preadolescent. Okay, Mr. Smarty, where do you keep your dice between games? DD die were kept in a tackle box. Ain't never had kids about. The art store had extra sharp pens to paint the numbers in on the 20 sided ones. You wouldn't believe what was kept in the old Pringles can. Do I want to *know* what was kept in the old Pringles can? :) Dan had one of those 20-sided ones that were just numbered 0 to 9 twice, with red ink on half of them and black ink on the other half. He pulled them out after years of non-use, discovered that the black really needed re-inking, and did them with permanent pen and set it on a table in a common area of the dorm floor to dry. Someone came up and said, Hey, what's this? picking up the die he'd just done as several people screamed at him not to touch it, getting his fingers all inky and smudging the ink. Needless to say, *nobody* immediately involved was amused, although someone snickered from the hallway. (Don't ever pick up something when someone has just said, Don't touch that! And don't ever mess with anyone else's dice or dice container without explicit permission; this is the most important dice-related rule I learned in college.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Ronald Blankenship wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:54 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated Julia who keeps her dice in a drawstring bag which is in a cabinet with an appliance lock on it to keep the kid from getting at them Indeed, keeping them all together in a bag makes it easier to misplace them all at once. -- Ronn! :) I'm Sure They're In A Drawer Or A Box Somewhere Around Here Maru I actually didn't find mine until sometime in November when I opened the box they'd been packed in. (Whoever packed that box *really* ought to have written dice on the outside somewhere. Bet it was I who made that oversight) I know where they are *now*, anyway, so the next time people are over here and wanting a 6-sider for some game or another, I'll know where to find one. I also have a mini dice-bag around here somewhere, which will turn up sometime in January; I was carrying it around in my purse before Sammy was born. I had everything needed to roll up a quick 2nd. ed. ADD character except the character sheet. :) Julia who once used an 8-sider to determine sides for a Trivial Pursuit game ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 12/6/2002 1:42:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wouldn't believe what was kept in the old Pringles can. Do I want to *know* what was kept in the old Pringles can? :) Dan had one of those 20-sided ones that were just numbered 0 to 9 twice, with red ink on half of them and black ink on the other half. We just used a six sided at the same time. 1-3 for zero, and 4-6 for ten. Four Pringles cans held: open rings, closed rings, bobs [4 on 1] and pieces of chainmail. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/6/2002 1:42:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wouldn't believe what was kept in the old Pringles can. Do I want to *know* what was kept in the old Pringles can? :) Dan had one of those 20-sided ones that were just numbered 0 to 9 twice, with red ink on half of them and black ink on the other half. We just used a six sided at the same time. 1-3 for zero, and 4-6 for ten. Four Pringles cans held: open rings, closed rings, bobs [4 on 1] and pieces of chainmail. Bobs? I can visualize what the rest were, but I'm not sure what bobs are. Those must have been heavy for Pringle's cans! :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Ultra-radical fast food terrorists kidnap the mayor of St. Louis. Will be released once the Gateway Arch is painted bright yellow. Then the giant mirror will be built just next to it. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy, F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. And yet the title of this thread from the very beginning is religion is evil, why it must be eradicated. Seems to me that if you had your druthers, religion would be done away with, both for the Pat Robertsons and Bin Laden of the world and for the average person down the street that just likes God. If that is the case, than wouldn't you be forcing your view on them? I'm just trying to get where your coming from here, because it seems a bit contradictory. No I am not forcing my views on everyone. I just think that religious views are wrong. Irrationality is never right. If you hate religion because it has though police, but you are willing to forbid others from following it, how can we take your positions on free speech seriously? You say you aren't preventing anyone from enslaving their minds to idiocy, but you're also saying their idiocy should be eliminated. Am I misreading you here? I advocate logic. Religion is illogical. I want people to understand just how illogical their idiocy is. I want people who undertand that religion is idiocy, to stop having religion and stop trying to force idiocy on other people. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
Nick Arnett wrote: Slavery wasn't an end unto itself, however. Surely there is little disagreement that the South's desire to preserve slavery was motivated by the economics of operating plantations. No, and don't call me Shirley. 8^) Seriously, I would disagree wholeheartedly with that statement. If economics was the driver, the South would have rejected slavery long before the Civil War. What I've read suggests that slavery was terribly inefficient because of its coercive nature and the requirement that a slave owner support his slaves from cradle to grave no matter how productive they were. So I can't see how slavery could be seen as the root of the issues. Seems to me that money (the love of it, as usual) was at the root, with power (the southern states' right to determine the legality of slavery) running a close second. Read more about ante-bellum Southern culture. I think you'll find that secession had more to do with honor than anything else. The idea that they were fighting for economic reasons probably would have seemed absolutely repulsive to them. Page Smith* writes of the complexity of the Southern culture: Slaves and slavery were not new to history, but nowhere else, in no other time, had a culture, or subculture taken the form of the South's peculiar institution, with such contrasting racial types wove into so intricate and intimate unity, one so full of unresolvable tension and tragic paradoxes.It defies any simple description so I can only suggest that you find a good reference and read more about it. It seems also that we agree that religion was not at the root, but used only to rationalize the horrors of American slavery. No, I have never read that religion was the/a root cause, of the Civil War. When I was younger, that episode of history seemed ancient. As I've grown older, especially as I've looked at my family genealogy, I've been quite struck by how recently this happened. Our *close* relatives were involved; those who imagine that we have really evolved much since then is kidding themselves. How many of us considered reading about dead people as the most boring subject imaginable? I first became interested when I found the first volume of Smith's history in a book locker onboard ship. I remain fascinated and have really only scratched the surface. Doug *Trial by Fire, A Peoples History of the Civil War and Reconstruction (volume five in his History of the United States.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
At 10:48 PM 11/25/02 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: if you're south of the Mason-Dixon line, the War Between the States Wrong. It's called The War of Northern Aggression. ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
Ronn said: It's called The War of Northern Aggression. Didn't the US Civil War start with the Confederacy firing on Fort Sumter? And wouldn't that make it The War of Southern Aggression? Rich GCU Hazy Knowledge ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: K. Feete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Yes, but, as Searle and Merleau-Ponty are both so fond of Merleau-Ponty? Isn't that that English comedy team that did all those TV shows and movies??? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. This may all just be some big matrix I am in, but math works either way. What about the Axiom of Choice? Does it exist? Or the Continuum Hypothesis? Does it exist? AoC: Neither accepting it or NOT accepting it leads to a contradiction. Both are valid. Analysis of the Continuum One path to finding out if CH is true is to look for sets of real numbers that have cardinality greater than aleph0 and less than c. If such sets exist, then CH is false. While looking for these sets mathematicians have decomposed the reals into different types of sets and come up with characterizations of the reals, continua, and continuity. 3.3.1 Decomposing the Reals There are many ways to decompose the reals. We can split the reals into two sets, such as the rational and irrational numbers or the algebraic and transcendental numbers, or we can look at types of subsets of the reals, such as Borel sets and non-Borel sets. The hope is that these decompositions will help us to characterize the entire set of reals. For example, the rationals provide a good approximation to the reals because any real number can be approximated as closely as you please by a rational number. This should serve as a warning though. Despite the rationals' great ability to represent the reals they are of a different cardinality than the reals. So, just because a collection of sets is a good approximation of the reals doesn't mean that it will give us much useful information about cardinality questions. Bearing this in mind, let's try to understand CH by looking at sets that, in some sense, represent the reals. CH is true for closed, Borel, and analytic sets, i.e.: any infinite closed set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. any infinite Borel set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. any infinite analytic set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. This means that if there is a set that falsifies CH, i.e., a set with cardinality between aleph0 and c, it will not be one of these types of sets. Since there are only c of these types of sets and there are 2csubsets of R, there are plenty of sets left which might falsify CH! http://www.ii.com/math/ch/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The Fool ... conquestadors, slavery, apartheid, and feudal systems were political and conquistadors: conquer, take gold, convert to catholicism. Notice how most of south America is adamantly catholic? I don't think there's any question that the primary goal, far and away, was material. And there's a very good argument that Catholicism was (and still often is) abused by the minority to retain political and economic power. The fact that religion can be misused so effectively doesn't prove that it is bad, only that it is very powerful. Slavery was ever aided and abetted by the bible, the bible says slavery is OK, tells how to mark slaves, how to treat slaves, how to sell slaves, how to free slaves (except female slaves). It was the religious who used the bible as justification for slavery in the south, before-during-after the civil war. Same argument as above. The war was about economics and states' rights, wasn't it? No. Titus 2:9-10 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please them well, not talking back, 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things. 1 Peter 2:18-20 18 Let house servants be in subjection to their owners with all due fear, not only to the good and reasonable, but also to those hard to please. 19 For if someone, because of conscience toward God, bears up under grievous things and suffers unjustly, this is an agreeable thing. 20 For what merit is there in it if, when YOU are sinning and being slapped, YOU endure it? But if, when YOU are doing good and YOU suffer, YOU endure it, this is a thing agreeable with God. divine right of kings: Kings can do anything because god appointed them, and so they are acting on behalf of god. This is a pivotal christian doctrine. No, it is most certainly not. That is a medieval idea that was quite self-serving for those in power. Although the Bible says that leaders fulfill God's purposes, it also quite clearly says that the purpose may be to show people a negative example. Christianity teaches that *everyone* makes mistakes, except Adam before the Fall and Christ. You'd do well to learn more about what Christianity actually teaches if you're going to criticize it. Criticism that is based on extreme interpretations isn't going to convince the mainstream. We're not all right-wing fundamentalists. Romans 13:1-4 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God's minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad. Colossians 1:16 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Titus 3:1-2 3 Continue reminding them to be in subjection and be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak injuriously of no one, not to be belligerent, to be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool quoted a bunch of biblical quotes to show how the Bible endorses slavery and the divine right of kings. My reply: This is why a literal interpretation of the Bible is problematic at best. For each of these passages, there are other passages that can be quoted that contradict them (I don't have the time or patience to do a search right now, but I may have time sometime next week). The Bible is great as a historical document. The Bible is also great as a philosophical treatise. It even includes a little history among all the parable and allegory. But it should not be taken as literal truth or literal direction. Reggie Bautista The above paragraph is IMHO, YMMV, as usual. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool - Isn't religion is evil a rather broad statement? Do you really No. It is an exact statement. believe ALL religions are inherently evil? Do no religions do any good for Yes. the world so that they must all be eradicated? No, yes. As for the Crusades: http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Crusades.html . It took quite long, but I think civilization is slowly maturing -- and so are our religions (despite the fact some seem lodged in the past and are only maturing reluctantly). Looking at the world *today*, can you really say that all of the world's religions *as a whole* ultimately produce more far more bad than good in the world? Yes. Remember two things - 1) much of the world's charity is organized/administered by religions and 2) Just as you say that some Bullshit. The U.S. gives the smallest percent of it's gdp as foreign aid (of all industrialized nations), but that number is still larger than what any other nation gives as aid by a wide margin. people commit evil for their god, there are many (and I'd say far more) who commit good for their god. Spreading, irrationality, anti-science, esoteric Trvth, wars in any number of nations, and other things aren't evil? And I'd say the threat/promise of an afterlife that many religions have has a net postive effect. Spreading the Threat And/Or promise of an afterlife is single most evil thing religion does. It's what gives terrorists the ability to commit massive kamikaze attacks against innocents. What justifies your absolutism to say religion must be eradicated? Anything that preaches irrational ideas as rational is something that has to be stopped. Does this absolutism apply to other institutions and facets of life? Yes. You never responded to other people's analogous questions, so I'll pose some here: - The Germans committed many evil, terrible atrocities in WWII. Should all Germans today be eradicated? You are Creating a false dichotomy. - Alcohol has ruined lives, caused countless deaths, and probably even caused a number of wars. Should alcohol be abolished? Yes. - Some people will put forward a fervent case replete with proof that the USA (aka Great Satan) -or perhpas even all western civilization- is quite evil and should be eradicated. Would you agree? That is irrational and religious. Why would I advocate irrational/religious conspiracies? Honestly, I don't think anyone here is strongly debating whether assorted religions are responsible for some evils of the past/present. The thing is that you're overlooking a great many other factors, such as the fact that religions are human institutions and are subject to human fallibilities just like everything else we do. Also, economic factors play/played a big role in much religious zealotry of the present and past. Blaming religion without considering things such as these is only seeing a small part of the picture. Religions were created because of the fear of death. Taking away that fear of death allows people to kill others at will: because those others they kill don't really die, they go so some mythical plane of being. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 04:59 PM 11/25/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: Hum. The dark ages, IIRC, were a result of invading barbarians destroying a weakened Rome. The Catholic Church helped preserve what knowledge was left and bring them to the end. The catholic church did ten times as much damage as the sacking of Rome ever did. Well, as a statement, I find this particularly unconvincing. Perhaps you should try backing it up. I said I would get to my anti-religion/christ essay sometime in jan/feb. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reggie Bautista asked: Kneem, should the Republican party be eradicated because of the illegal actions of Richard Nixon? Should the Democratic party be eradicated because of the illegal actions of Bill Clinton? Should Democracy be banned because eventually we [*] elect a jerk, a tyrant, a thief or a megalomaniac? Alberto Monteiro covering my ass [*] we must be taken as a generalization, and I am not thinking about any specific election that happened recently in any country. /covering my ass Bullshit. Bush is all of those things and you know it. Not quite. If I remember my history correctly Hitler was elected, so was Mussolini and if I'm not totally mistaken a few other proven megalomaniacs and or thieves and or etc. as well. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Jeroen wrote: However, given the worship of the Almighty Dollar by some people, one cannot help but wonder if Capitalism qualifies as a religion... :-) Not Capitalism, but just one perverted sect of capitalism that believes that the dollar is worth anything but what is written in it. Reminds me of how that American expert on counterfitting so charmingly put it, when interviewed by the BBC on the subject of why the dollar isn't made more frauderesistant by adding additional safety features: The dollar basically is our money but in essential it is your problem not ours. Sonja :o) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Dan Minette wrote: One needs to look at sources that support one's view with the same critical eye as those that oppose it. Technique is a good starting point. nitpick I think that that is scientifically incorrect. You first need to try to disprove your own point in all possible ways to be able to prove it. So you need to look more closely at the opposing sources. /nitpick Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
K. Feete wrote: Superstition and irrational beliefs occur with or without religion. Witness Skinner's superstitious pigeons, or my conviction that mentioning the fact that it's raining if I want it to rain will make the rain stop. grin I thought that's what umbrellas are for. Bring one and it won't rain, forget yours and it will pour. No? ;o) Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
At 05:46 AM 11/27/2002 -0600 Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 10:48 PM 11/25/02 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: if you're south of the Mason-Dixon line, the War Between the States Wrong. It's called The War of Northern Aggression. In Boston, they call it The Rebellion - which is more accurate, IMHO. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Just a general question for the Fool, after hours of reading the volumes of discussion here: Posts you've made in the past suggest you have an almost rabid love for Free Speech. Doesn't your position on religion, et. al. strike you as even a little hypocritical? Or is it that free speech and being able to decide for oneself only applies to the things you agree with? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just a general question for the Fool, after hours of reading the volumes of discussion here: Posts you've made in the past suggest you have an almost rabid love for Free Speech. Doesn't your position on religion, et. al. strike you as even a little hypocritical? Or is it that free speech and being able to decide for oneself only applies to the things you agree with? A. Most religions try to restrict free speech. B. Most religions have various forms of 'thought crimes', Sins which are against free speech. C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy, Religion. D. Religion is not just another bad idea, it's a bad paradigm, a bad way of thinking, a bad way of life, a bad waste of time/money/effort/thought, a bad way to solve problems, a bad way to understand life/science/math/the universe, etc. E. I think religion is dangerous and irrational. F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. (That slavery meme again). G. Fermats last theorem wasn't solved by faith. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy, F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. And yet the title of this thread from the very beginning is religion is evil, why it must be eradicated. Seems to me that if you had your druthers, religion would be done away with, both for the Pat Robertsons and Bin Laden of the world and for the average person down the street that just likes God. If that is the case, than wouldn't you be forcing your view on them? I'm just trying to get where your coming from here, because it seems a bit contradictory. If you hate religion because it has though police, but you are willing to forbid others from following it, how can we take your positions on free speech seriously? You say you aren't preventing anyone from enslaving their minds to idiocy, but you're also saying their idiocy should be eliminated. Am I misreading you here? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 11:50 PM ... That's the succinct answer. Obviously it is difficult to accurately summarize the determinant of any great human conflict in a few sentences, but I feel confident in my assessment that slavery lies at the root of all of the issues discussed as causes. Slavery wasn't an end unto itself, however. Surely there is little disagreement that the South's desire to preserve slavery was motivated by the economics of operating plantations. So I can't see how slavery could be seen as the root of the issues. Seems to me that money (the love of it, as usual) was at the root, with power (the southern states' right to determine the legality of slavery) running a close second. It seems also that we agree that religion was not at the root, but used only to rationalize the horrors of American slavery. When I was younger, that episode of history seemed ancient. As I've grown older, especially as I've looked at my family genealogy, I've been quite struck by how recently this happened. Our *close* relatives were involved; those who imagine that we have really evolved much since then is kidding themselves. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: dinsdag 26 november 2002 6:36 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated Well, as a statement, I find this particularly unconvincing. Perhaps you should try backing it up. How odd to see you make that suggestion. First you refuse to back your own claims because you believe that claims do not have to be backed with data, and then you go on to suggest that someone do exactly the opposite... How inconsistent of you. Jeroen Casual observations van Baardwijk __ Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam You're just in the wrong field . . . -- Ronn! :) True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, for example, no matter what field you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, I'd be okay. Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
At 08:59 AM 11/26/02 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam You're just in the wrong field . . . -- Ronn! :) True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, My graduate advisor was at Berkeley some time before he started teaching at BYU (and was always of the religion which runs the latter) . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:19 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad. So did smoke come out of your computer when you typed that? No. Thank you for asking, though. ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:40 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated Julia who contributed to a drug law debate on another list recently and who has a I love the quadratic equation (except it's done all in symbols, but those are difficult to reproduce with plain text in an e-mail) t-shirt i should love the quadratic equation, since if it were not for the application of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra to equations like x²+1=0, mathematicians and physicists would use i a lot less often (and electrical engineers would never learn the tenth letter of the alphabet) . . . --Ronn! :) Well, Pegasus Publishing ( http://www.pegasuspublishing.com/ ) sells such a t-shirt. The only problem with them is that the site is one that only uses frames, and frames are evil. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Doug wrote: Alberto Monteiro wrote: Why did Kamikaze Pilots wear helmets Maru I don't know. To protect them from loose objects in the cockpit? To keep the hair out of their eyes? To keep their ears warm? Doug 8^) To attach the goggles more firmly to their heads, so they'd have the eye protection they needed on the missions? To keep their heads warm enough so they didn't get hypothermia and go all loopy before they hit their targets? To keep the scarves they wrapped around their heads firmly in place, so they'd be wearing them when they died for the Emperor? ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Gautam Mukunda wrote: Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam You're just in the wrong field . . . -- Ronn! :) True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the real fanatics in both fields would cause problems there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might have problems, for example, no matter what field you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, I'd be okay. Dunno about Dartmouth for political views, but I don't think I'd want to be there for other reasons. The high school seemed to have as its cream some arrogant little snotty brats when I was in high school in another NH town, and I didn't care much for the vibes when I went to visit the campus my junior year. But that's just me with 15-years-out-of-date rememberances. I haven't heard anything really negative about Cornell or Ithaca from anyone who's been around Ithaca for any amount of time. (Plus which, there really seemed to be *nothing* but Dartmouth in Hanover, whereas there is at least a passable, if not laudable, Cajun restaurant in Ithaca, frex, and other industries besides education.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:03:39AM -0200, Alberto Monteiro wrote: So, Set Theory is a Religion? No. Definition or assumption is not the same thing as accepting something on faith. One is a convenience, the other is the main point. Even Science, at some point, requires you to passive accept what your senses are telling you. No, I am always free to try other experiments to investigate it. I have a choice other than passive acceptance. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
It's not that those thing you listed aren't true, they are. They could still flare up, but the cold war is over. Did you know that before the british came to india, there was a religious group in india called 'thugs'. the Thugs systematically killed more than an order of magnitude more people (over a very long period of time) than the numbers you just listed. All for kali. Cite, please? I've studied the Thugees - not in depth, but I've looked at them as the original terrorists, as it were, and I've seen no evidence that they killed upwards of _500 million_ people, which is what you're suggesting. I'm curious as to where you got that number. Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Would you accept that places like Yale, Princeton and Harvard are OK schools? Or do they all pale compared to old schools like Oxford? Dan M. If they do, you'd have to be prety convincing, because I decided not to go to Oxford for graduate study because American universities universally believe that, were it in the US, it wouldn't even crack the top 10 - indeed, the situation is so bad that had I decided to get a PhD from Oxford, I almost certainly would have had to get a second one from an American school if I wanted an academic job. Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 11:13:28PM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Should Democracy be banned because eventually we [*] elect a jerk, a tyrant, a thief or a megalomaniac? Erik replied: Should prostitution be banned because in the prostitution business some people might take unfair advantage of others? Should fraud be banned because someone might get tricked? Should gambling be banned because someone might lose their money? Should drugs be banned because someone using them might hurt themselves or others? Good questions all, and all interesting topics for debate. Reggie Bautista VFP I could probably argue for either side of any of these. _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 11/25/02 8:17:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam Couldn't you take a drug, rent a wig, and shop for clothes at Goodwill? Something to turn off your intellect just long enough to get hired? ;-) William Taylor --- It's your turn in the Bork barrel. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Huh? There are plenty of conservative academic institutions. Hoover Institute at Stanford, to name a prominent example. Nick Actually, there are only a handful. In most surveys, well under 10% of academics report as registered Republicans. Among the Harvard government department the number is actually below 5%. Of course, it's worse if you're in English, for example, where the number is essentially 0. There is, for all practical purposes, no such thing as a conservative in a major university academic department. In any case, while Hoover is better than most, I wouldn't describe it as terribly conservative. Given that being a member of the left/far-left is a virtual requirement to get hired at say, the rest of Stanford, or Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, MIT, and so on, like most conservatives who are interested in academia, I have to take such things into account. In economics I'd be okay. In political science I have a ghost of a chance. In history, English, anthropology, sociology, or anything like that, I'd be toast, of course. Despite the claims of a lot of people, I don't think any serious person could claim that there isn't an overwhelming leftward bias to hiring in academia. Heck, I've had professors I was close to state quite openly that they would never consider extending an offer to any conservative. Unless you want to explain some other reason why the proportion of Republicans on college campuses, particularly top-tier campuses, is so low. Could I suggest you not try because only liberals are smart enough? I've heard that one before, and it no longer amuses me :-) Gautam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: It's not that those thing you listed aren't true, they are. They could still flare up, but the cold war is over. Did you know that before the british came to india, there was a religious group in india called 'thugs'. the Thugs systematically killed more than an order of magnitude more people (over a very long period of time) than the numbers you just listed. All for kali. I'll disagree here. I have no idea where you came upon these figures but they seem too high. As for how long they have been in existence, well, I am not sure. However this is not a topic I know a lot about. Just general history and references in literature over the last 4 centuries or so. Based on that, some general impressions: Thugs are have certainly been in existence since the 16th century, if not earlier. The Mughal papers mention them from that time on. And they start making regular appearance in poetry and literature from around the end of that century. However, the 'Thugs' were never a religious group, though they have certainly claimed that and have been perceived by some as that. But by and large, by Indians they were considered to be nothing more than a unsavoury, scary group of robbers and cut-throats. They were chillingly efficient though and rather well organised. Garroting, hanging, strangling and diembowelling the victim using a spring-loaded, three-pronged serrated knife were their favoured methods of dispatching the victims. However, I have never come across any reason to believe that the picture painted in that url you posted is close to correct. That article is filled with errors. The myth about Kali is erroneous, the comments on Hindi alphabet are wrong, the description of a strongly centralised organisation of Thugs is false as by all accounts these groups were organised locally - for some decades they actually centered around the maths.There are many more exagerations, misinterpretations and it seems pointless to point them all out. Would take far too long anyway. :) Some of the shortcomings of that view have been pointed out in another article though. Here is the url for an alternative look at the issue: http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/yale/9.1roy.html It has extensive notes pointing towards further avenues of research. Most of them are probably not accessible online though. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
People are evil, religion merely reflects this. Eradicate it and something else will spring up in its place. (Probably for $29.95/mo. with free installation this week only.) It'll be like trying to kill Hydra with a Swiss Army knife and a Zippo. Our civilization has already invested so much time in learning to analyze, appropriate, suborn, twist, and abuse religion that if you eradicate it we'll have to do all that work all over again. What a waste! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julia said: Can anyone come up with that data? I'll have a go at calculating rough figures. A quick Google finds that the population of India was about 300 million in Moghul times (I'm sure Ritu will correct me if this is wrong), the population of the Aztec empire was about 20 million; in the 1930s, the Soviet population was 190 million. These gives us the approximate death rates due to religious or state murder: Soviet regime 500 per 100,000 per year Aztec Empire 100 Thuggee Cult 13 (Figures for the Soviet Union assume the 50 million died over 50 years. As before, I'm excluding war dead.) For calibration, the US murder rate is around 10 per 100,000 per year. AFAIK the Aztec empire was the state religion. The communist system in the U.S.S.R. was the state religion. The thugs were a very small religious cult, probably never having more than 5000 members at a time. 4 / 5000 = 8 murders per member per year. An average lifespan of say 20 years being a member, gives each member a murder rate of 160 murders per member. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The Fool Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html I've noticed that The Fool posts things like this religiously. :-) As long as there are people who believe these kinds of things, whether they are christians, jews, islamists, hindus or whatever, (and I know plenty of people with this kind of worldview personally), the human race is headed for extinction. It is only a matter of time before the fanatics do us all in. As far as I know, people without religion also do evil things. Sometimes very bad indeed. All very true. Yet it seems you're implying cause and effect between religion and behaving badly? What *are* you saying? The world would be better off without religion because because why? Lets look at a couple of things religion brought us in the past before we examine this question. We have: the dark ages, the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the divine right of kings, jihad, forced religious conversions, thought crimes AKA heresy, caste systems, religious 'sacrifices' of humans and animals, superstition, conspiracy theories, terrorism, the thirty years war, bloody Mary, the conquistadors and the downfall of native americans, slavery, apartheid, genocide, feudal systems, burning at the stake, irrational beliefs, UFO's, etc. ad nauseum. All of these things and many more were caused at least in part if not wholly from religious beliefs. What does religion do? It is a crutch for the mind that stops most people from having the ability examine things critically, accept new ideas, accept proofs and disproofs of certain things like, genesis, exodus, and other things that never happened (I should point out that the persons who wrote some of the epistles and gospels absolutely believed that genesis and exodus were true). Religion is primarily black and white, our group/religion/good Vs them the heretics/infidels/unbelievers/evildoers. Most of those things I just listed would not have happened or not been as bad if it were not for religion. Religion is elitism, our group is better/knows X esoteric trvth/ has Y, etc. Religions also subdivide into elite divisions, popes, clergy, laity. Religion is about dividing people, classifying them, making distinctions. The primary meme behind religion is slavery. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reggie Bautista asked: Kneem, should the Republican party be eradicated because of the illegal actions of Richard Nixon? Should the Democratic party be eradicated because of the illegal actions of Bill Clinton? Should Democracy be banned because eventually we [*] elect a jerk, a tyrant, a thief or a megalomaniac? Alberto Monteiro covering my ass [*] we must be taken as a generalization, and I am not thinking about any specific election that happened recently in any country. /covering my ass Bullshit. Bush is all of those things and you know it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 12:18:09AM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: The real problem is that we **don't** have a decent definition of religion, as things that are considered religions by most people differ substantially. To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. I like this definition. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 12:18:09AM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: The real problem is that we **don't** have a decent definition of religion, as things that are considered religions by most people differ substantially. To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. I like this definition. So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Ronald Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. By that definition, when I teach a subject like introductory astronomy or freshman math or physics for non-majors, I am teaching religion, because I frequently have to say, You'll just have to take my word for this, because, for example, to establish a particular result may require calculus or abstract algebra or other advanced courses which not only do we not expect the students at that level to have taken, but most of them will never take any time in their lives. That's not the point. They could in fact get to those proofs, even if they do not do so, those proofs do exist. With religion, those proofs do not exist. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated That's not the point. They could in fact get to those proofs, even if they do not do so, those proofs do exist. With religion, those proofs do not exist. Could you provide the proof that you are conscious to me? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
At 20:30 24-11-2002 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote: Should the Internet be banned because some people send out spam? Should Internet discussion groups be banned because some listowners abuse their power? Should Internet discussion groups be banned because some people resort to personal attacks when they cannot win an argument? Jeroen Corruption delenda est van Baardwijk __ Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 12:18:09AM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: The real problem is that we **don't** have a decent definition of religion, as things that are considered religions by most people differ substantially. To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. I like this definition. So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Dan Minette wrote: To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Astrology is not a religion. UFOlogy is not a religion. Spiritism is not a religion. Shamanism is not a religion. Buddism is not a religion. etc Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. So, we have to take your word for what is or is not logical? We should have faith in that? Kneemism is a religion Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:47 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. What is logic? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. So, we have to take your word for what is or is not logical? We should have faith in that? Well, I am sorry I don't have the time to wax lyrical on the illogic of marxism at this time. Not that I couldn't if I had more motivation. Kneemism is a religion ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. What is logic? Heres a quick, and not in depth, discussion of some of the more common logical systems: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/2/123247/073 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
At 18:53 25-11-2002 -0200, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Astrology is not a religion. UFOlogy is not a religion. Spiritism is not a religion. Shamanism is not a religion. Buddism is not a religion. etc However, given the worship of the Almighty Dollar by some people, one cannot help but wonder if Capitalism qualifies as a religion... :-) Jeroen Money makes the world go round van Baardwijk __ Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's not that those thing you listed aren't true, they are. They could still flare up, but the cold war is over. Did you know that before the british came to india, there was a religious group in india called 'thugs'. the Thugs systematically killed more than an order of magnitude more people (over a very long period of time) than the numbers you just listed. All for kali. Cite, please? I've studied the Thugees - not in depth, but I've looked at them as the original terrorists, as it were, and I've seen no evidence that they killed upwards of _500 million_ people, which is what you're suggesting. I'm curious as to where you got that number. a slight exaggeration. They existed from at least 1200's and annually killed [estimation] somewhere between 30k-50k people / year. It could actually be higher or lower than that. It comes out it the same ballpark as what the soviets did, but by a much smaller group of people, over a much greater period of time. They are where we got the english word 'thug' from. You call them the original terrorists, and that was why I was using them as an example. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:47 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. What is logic? Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 18:53 25-11-2002 -0200, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Astrology is not a religion. UFOlogy is not a religion. Spiritism is not a religion. Shamanism is not a religion. Buddism is not a religion. etc However, given the worship of the Almighty Dollar by some people, one cannot help but wonder if Capitalism qualifies as a religion... :-) Mammon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Jeroen wrote: However, given the worship of the Almighty Dollar by some people, one cannot help but wonder if Capitalism qualifies as a religion... :-) Not Capitalism, but just one perverted sect of capitalism that believes that the dollar is worth anything but what is written in it. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:55 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's not the point. They could in fact get to those proofs, even if they do not do so, those proofs do exist. With religion, those proofs do not exist. Could you provide the proof that you are conscious to me? No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. This may all just be some big matrix I am in, but math works either way. Can you prove that you haven't missed an obvious error? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. This may all just be some big matrix I am in, but math works either way. What about the Axiom of Choice? Does it exist? Or the Continuum Hypothesis? Does it exist? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:05 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. What is logic? Heres a quick, and not in depth, discussion of some of the more common logical systems: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/2/123247/073 Thanks for the link, it is interesting. However, I asked because you seemed to use logic as a word to mean something other than a formal system. Describing logic as a formal system , we can say that there are many bad, but logical arguments for Marxism. As Mati Meron has argued on sci.physics, when one gets to history politics and economics, there are so many free variables, a rigorous proof is all but impossible. Dan M. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 11/25/2002 2:01:10 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is logic? I liked Spok's answerbut I can't say I remember it exactly. Something like: Logic is a beautiful flower--that smells awful. William Taylor - Let's use timetravel and mix logic with a really big sword. Lets put Descarte before the Norse. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:14 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated a slight exaggeration. They existed from at least 1200's and annually killed [estimation] somewhere between 30k-50k people / year. It could actually be higher or lower than that. It comes out it the same ballpark as what the soviets did, but by a much smaller group of people, over a much greater period of time. They are where we got the english word 'thug' from. You call them the original terrorists, and that was why I was using them as an example. Ritu gave a good counter-cite to this; consistent with Gautam's view. This is not a cite, its a recap. No hard feelings, but I'm guessing that your source might have its roots in less than the best scholarship. Unless you did that work, it shouldn't be taken personally. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's not the point. They could in fact get to those proofs, even if they do not do so, those proofs do exist. With religion, those proofs do not exist. Could you provide the proof that you are conscious to me? No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. This may all just be some big matrix I am in, but math works either way. Can you prove that you haven't missed an obvious error? Are you trying to push godels theorem here? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 11/25/2002 2:16:23 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad.
Julia
Ah. Perverted minds think alike.
Why, thank you for the compliment! :)
~~~{~~~@ to Julia.
William Taylor
-
Achoo.
[Damn allergies.]
Hope that isn't a rose -- I'm allergic.
Oh, wait, it's a *virtual* rose, so it'll be OK. :) Just so long as I
don't use my virtual nose to sniff at it.
[I have damn allergies, too. Not so bad as yours, from the sounds of
it, though. It just starts getting bad again every time I go to unpack
more boxes from the move, and I unpacked a number of those in the past
couple of weeks, so I've been a little miserable from that lately.]
Julia
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. What is logic? Heres a quick, and not in depth, discussion of some of the more common logical systems: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/2/123247/073 Thanks for the link, it is interesting. However, I asked because you seemed to use logic as a word to mean something other than a formal system. Describing logic as a formal system , we can say that there are many bad, but logical arguments for Marxism. As Mati Meron has argued on sci.physics, when one gets to history politics and economics, there are so many free variables, a rigorous proof is all but impossible. Formal logic is all computer scientist / programmers do. All formal logic system must have one [or more] axiom, but in math we keep that one axiom very very simple. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: Are you trying to push godels theorem here? Now, *there's* something I'd like to see -- theorem pushers. :) As theorems go, that could be a difficult one to push. Proof of the quadratic equation, now, that's an easier pill to swallow. Julia who contributed to a drug law debate on another list recently and who has a I love the quadratic equation (except it's done all in symbols, but those are difficult to reproduce with plain text in an e-mail) t-shirt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] a slight exaggeration. They existed from at least 1200's and annually killed [estimation] somewhere between 30k-50k people / year. It could actually be higher or lower than that. It comes out it the same ballpark as what the soviets did, but by a much smaller group of people, over a much greater period of time. They are where we got the english word 'thug' from. You call them the original terrorists, and that was why I was using them as an example. Ritu gave a good counter-cite to this; consistent with Gautam's view. This is not a cite, its a recap. No hard feelings, but I'm guessing that your source might have its roots in less than the best scholarship. Unless you did that work, it shouldn't be taken personally. :-) I cant possible find every source for everthing I've read five years ago, let alone two months ago. And I remember more than one source I read that said roughly similar if not exact things. The death toll wasn't the point. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Julia Thompson wrote: As theorems go, that could be a difficult one to push. Proof of the quadratic equation, now, that's an easier pill to swallow. I once tryed to push the cubic equation (Cardano's theft from Tartaglia) to a younger friend with mathematical skills. He's a shrink now. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: Formal logic is all computer scientist / programmers do. All formal logic system must have one [or more] axiom, but in math we keep that one axiom very very simple. What's the simplest one [or more] axiom you can base a system on? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] a slight exaggeration. They existed from at least 1200's and annually killed [estimation] somewhere between 30k-50k people / year. It could actually be higher or lower than that. It comes out it the same ballpark as what the soviets did, but by a much smaller group of people, over a much greater period of time. They are where we got the english word 'thug' from. You call them the original terrorists, and that was why I was using them as an example. Ritu gave a good counter-cite to this; consistent with Gautam's view. This is not a cite, its a recap. No hard feelings, but I'm guessing that your source might have its roots in less than the best scholarship. Unless you did that work, it shouldn't be taken personally. :-) I cant possible find every source for everthing I've read five years ago, let alone two months ago. And I remember more than one source I read that said roughly similar if not exact things. The death toll wasn't the point. This points out a great problem with tracing sources. The question is what is the source of the multiple sources. For example, in the study of scripture text, 100 sources agreeing carry less weigh than 5 agreeing if the 100 are found to be part of the same family; having the same root, and the 5 are found to have vastly different roots. How can the death toll not be part of the point? Killing 10 people is different from killing 10 million. Further, there is the point that the thugs weren't really a religious group. One needs to look at sources that support one's view with the same critical eye as those that oppose it. Technique is a good starting point. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 09:34:11PM -0500, K. Feete wrote: I'm actually preparing to write a scifi story where the government has outlawed religious expression (along with any racial references whatsoever). The point being that a) it doesn't work and b) they live very dull, bland lives. So, banning religion doesn't work? Makes sense. People will go underground when told they can't do something that they want to do. But that doesn't sound dull or bland. Why dull, bland lives? I don't think I stated that very clearly. First off, religion et cetera isn't outlawed, it's just not considered acceptable - a bit like being a member of the KKK or something. grin It's difficult to impossible for you to get a job, particularly in the government or military, and you get passed over a lot. Some people are closet thiests, but they live in perpetual fear of being found out and loosing their jobs, et cetera. Dull and bland were definately the wrong words. The civilization as a whole is somewhat... stodgy... compared to the other two. People are extremely literal-minded and rational. There's not very many scientific breakthroughs compared to the other two, although once a breakthrough is made they're a great deal more likely to turn it into something useful. Sometimes they don't recognize a breakthrough that's occurred because they're so fixated on empirical data, which will be rather the focus of the story, I think, once I get the bloody time to write on it. (School, incidentally, is evil.) I should emphasize that this isn't *just* an effect of the suppression of religion, but, rather, suppression of religion is a symptom. I should also emphasize that I don't consider this *will* happen or even that it's particularly likely to happen, though I'll do my best to make it plausable. It's just a thought experiment of mine. grin Loose the fanatics, loose people like my roomate. I think I can live with the fanatics. The first time I read that, I read loose as in release, like you might say, loose the hounds! :-) Oops. And me an English major. hides head in shame It was late, okay? And I have trouble with these things... damned effect and affect goes off to dinner muttering Kat Feete - He says gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at. Terry Pratchett ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets look at a couple of things religion brought us in the past before we examine this question. We have: the dark ages, the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the divine right of kings, jihad, forced religious conversions, thought crimes AKA heresy, caste systems, religious 'sacrifices' of humans and animals, superstition, conspiracy theories, terrorism, the thirty years war, bloody Mary, the conquistadors and the downfall of native americans, slavery, apartheid, genocide, feudal systems, burning at the stake, irrational beliefs, UFO's, etc. ad nauseum. All of these things and many more were caused at least in part if not wholly from religious beliefs. Hum. The dark ages, IIRC, were a result of invading barbarians destroying a weakened Rome. The Catholic Church helped preserve what knowledge was left and bring them to the end. Superstition and irrational beliefs occur with or without religion. Witness Skinner's superstitious pigeons, or my conviction that mentioning the fact that it's raining if I want it to rain will make the rain stop. grin Conspiracy has little or nothing to do with religion, although the two can sometimes be associated, and more to do with a systematic distrust of the government brought on by continual exposure to the fact that politicians lie. The most notable instances of genocide in this century have been Hitler and Stalin, both of whom were markedly anti-religious. Burning at the stake was an accepted criminal punishment, not particularly worse than hanging or drawing and quartering. It simply was the punishment resevered for witchcraft and sodomy, where drawing and quartering was for traitors and hanging was for murderers and thieves. Terrorism, as a term, originated with the Irish rebellions, and from what I've seen or heard of it the Irish were less concerned with the religious differences than with having the Brits foisting their laws and their political presence on them for centuries. The religion became a symbol, but it was never, IFAIK, more than an incidental cause. The spanish inquisition I'll give you. Mostly because I don't know much about it and I'm too hungry to do research right now. The Crusades, the divine right of kings, jihad, heresy, bloody Mary, the conquestadors, slavery, apartheid, and feudal systems were political and economic institutions or events, for which the religion was twisted to suit those in power, but for which religion was little more than a thin mask; even those living at the time recognized the manipulativeness and the essential power or money basis of them all. Screw eradicating religion. Let's eradicate politics and economics. grin Kat Feete 'I've gone to hundreds of fortune-tellers' parlors, and have been told thousands of things, but nobody ever told me I was a policewoman getting ready to arrest her.' -- New York City Detective ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: K. Feete [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 09:34:11PM -0500, K. Feete wrote: I'm actually preparing to write a scifi story where the government has outlawed religious expression (along with any racial references whatsoever). The point being that a) it doesn't work and b) they live very dull, bland lives. So, banning religion doesn't work? Makes sense. People will go underground when told they can't do something that they want to do. But that doesn't sound dull or bland. Why dull, bland lives? I don't think I stated that very clearly. First off, religion et cetera isn't outlawed, it's just not considered acceptable - a bit like being a member of the KKK or something. grin It's difficult to impossible for you to get a job, particularly in the government or military, and you get passed over a lot. Some people are closet thiests, but they live in perpetual fear of being found out and loosing their jobs, et cetera. Dull and bland were definately the wrong words. The civilization as a whole is somewhat... stodgy... compared to the other two. People are extremely literal-minded and rational. There's not very many scientific I think this is backwards from reality. Read His _Otherness_. Then consider two societies, the free west and thought police of the middle east, like saudi arabia. Which one bans things like pokemon? Freedom from the thought control of religion allows this 'otherness' meme to be so powerful in the west. breakthroughs compared to the other two, although once a breakthrough is made they're a great deal more likely to turn it into something useful. Sometimes they don't recognize a breakthrough that's occurred because they're so fixated on empirical data, which will be rather the focus of the story, I think, once I get the bloody time to write on it. (School, incidentally, is evil.) I should emphasize that this isn't *just* an effect of the suppression of religion, but, rather, suppression of religion is a symptom. I should also emphasize that I don't consider this *will* happen or even that it's particularly likely to happen, though I'll do my best to make it plausable. It's just a thought experiment of mine. grin Loose the fanatics, loose people like my roomate. I think I can live with the fanatics. The first time I read that, I read loose as in release, like you might say, loose the hounds! :-) Oops. And me an English major. hides head in shame It was late, okay? And I have trouble with these things... damned effect and affect ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. Yes, but, as Searle and Merleau-Ponty are both so fond of pointing out, no one seriously questions that they exist. It's simply that conciousness cannot be proven via scientific method because the scientific method relies on objectivity and conciousness is by its very nature subjective. I'd also question the mathematical point. One arguement is that math proofs only exist because we have a concept of mathematics, and so only exist because we are concious, and so are in fact based in a subjective assumption. GRIN But that's me, and therefore shaky. Let me refer you to Immanuel Kant: It might at first be though that the proposition 7 + 5 =12 is a mere analytical judgment, following from the concept of the sum of seven and five, according to the Law of Contradiction. But on closer examination it appears that the concept of the sum of 7 + 5 contains merely their union in a single number, without its being at all thought what the particular number is that unites them. The concept of twelve is by no means thought by merely thinking of the combination of seven and five; and analyse this possible sum as we may, we shall not discover twelve in the concept. Therefore, Kant concludes, math is *not* transcendant; it requires reference to the material world and expression through it, and is therefore, as Merleau-Ponty will argue a century or so later, affected and defined, like all things, by our worldview and our subjective conciousness. It's no more real or transcendant than anything else. Kat Feete --- The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. --Terry Pratchett ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: K. Feete [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets look at a couple of things religion brought us in the past before we examine this question. We have: the dark ages, the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the divine right of kings, jihad, forced religious conversions, thought crimes AKA heresy, caste systems, religious 'sacrifices' of humans and animals, superstition, conspiracy theories, terrorism, the thirty years war, bloody Mary, the conquistadors and the downfall of native americans, slavery, apartheid, genocide, feudal systems, burning at the stake, irrational beliefs, UFO's, etc. ad nauseum. All of these things and many more were caused at least in part if not wholly from religious beliefs. Hum. The dark ages, IIRC, were a result of invading barbarians destroying a weakened Rome. The Catholic Church helped preserve what knowledge was left and bring them to the end. The catholic church did ten times as much damage as the sacking of Rome ever did. Superstition and irrational beliefs occur with or without religion. Witness Skinner's superstitious pigeons, or my conviction that mentioning the fact that it's raining if I want it to rain will make the rain stop. grin Don't forget schizophrenia. Conspiracy has little or nothing to do with religion, although the two can sometimes be associated, and more to do with a systematic distrust of the government brought on by continual exposure to the fact that politicians lie. There are two main branches of conspiracy theory. The anti-gov UFO branch and the religious conspiracy branch. The religious conspiracy branch is much much much bigger than the ufo branch. Do some research. I know conspiracy theory. You do not. The most notable instances of genocide in this century have been Hitler and Stalin, both of whom were markedly anti-religious. The Nazi were very religious, steeped in mysticism and some trying to revive old pagan germanic religious traditions. Hitler targeted specific religious groups: Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, and some others. PolPot. Mao. Rwanda. India-punjab/khalistan,kashmir/jammu,nagaland. Bangladesh. Burning at the stake was an accepted criminal punishment, not particularly worse than hanging or drawing and quartering. It simply was Being burned alive is _much_ worse than being drawn an quartered. the punishment resevered for witchcraft and sodomy, where drawing and Heresy. quartering was for traitors and hanging was for murderers and thieves. Terrorism, as a term, originated with the Irish rebellions, and from what The thugs of india existed before the irish rebellions. There are plenty of historic examples of what we would call terrorism. Sabo = shoe tage = machine, sabotage = shoe in the machine. I've seen or heard of it the Irish were less concerned with the religious differences than with having the Brits foisting their laws and their political presence on them for centuries. The religion became a symbol, but it was never, IFAIK, more than an incidental cause. The spanish inquisition I'll give you. Mostly because I don't know much about it and I'm too hungry to do research right now. The Crusades, the divine right of kings, jihad, heresy, bloody Mary, the The crusades: initiated by popes (in some of them): bringing the cross to the unbelievers, and retaking the holy land, in particular jerusalem. Jihad: holy war/struggle. Very similar to the crusades. It's what the current crop of terrorist believe in. Heresy: Being burned at the stake for thought crimes / or alleged thought crimes. Inherently religious. Bloody Mary: Read history. English history. It actually started before her, she was just the worst. Eventually The catholic side lost the throne for good and the church of England won. conquestadors, slavery, apartheid, and feudal systems were political and conquistadors: conquer, take gold, convert to catholicism. Notice how most of south America is adamantly catholic? Slavery was ever aided and abetted by the bible, the bible says slavery is OK, tells how to mark slaves, how to treat slaves, how to sell slaves, how to free slaves (except female slaves). It was the religious who used the bible as justification for slavery in the south, before-during-after the civil war. divine right of kings: Kings can do anything because god appointed them, and so they are acting on behalf of god. This is a pivotal christian doctrine. economic institutions or events, for which the religion was twisted to suit those in power, but for which religion was little more than a thin mask; even those living at the time recognized the manipulativeness and the essential power or money basis of them all. Religion was a primary facet in many of these. Screw eradicating religion. Let's eradicate politics and economics. grin OK. ___
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Marvin's back! On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:46:07AM -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: It'll be like trying to kill Hydra with a Swiss Army knife and a Zippo. The Zippo might be more effective than the knife. Just lure it into a tar/petroleum pit and light! -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:12:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Screw eradicating religion. Let's eradicate politics and economics. grin It's not yet economical to eradicate politicians, but the Internet is certainly taking us in that direction. I'd rather have a one time long spam email from a candidate than those endless radio and TV ads. William Taylor - Allen's Alley with a Kilfile. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Kat Feete wrote: Therefore, Kant concludes, math is *not* transcendant; it requires reference to the material world and expression through it, and is therefore, as Merleau-Ponty will argue a century or so later, affected and defined, like all things, by our worldview and our subjective conciousness. It's no more real or transcendant than anything else. Or, put another way, (and to bring this back to a thread from two or three months ago): Blackadder: Right, Baldrick, let's try again, shall we? This is called adding. If I have two beans and then I add two more beans... what do I have? Baldrick: Some beans. Blackadder: Yes, and no! Let's try again, shall we? I have two beans and I add two more beans. What does that make? Baldrick: A very small casserole. Blackadder: Baldrick, the ape creatures of the Indus have mastered this. Now try again. One, two, three, four. So how many are there? Baldrick: Three. Blackadder: What? Baldrick: And that one. Blackadder: Three and that one. So if I add that one to the three... what will I have? Baldrick: Aah... some beans. Blackadder: Yes. To you, Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it? Reggie Bautista _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The Fool ... conquestadors, slavery, apartheid, and feudal systems were political and conquistadors: conquer, take gold, convert to catholicism. Notice how most of south America is adamantly catholic? I don't think there's any question that the primary goal, far and away, was material. And there's a very good argument that Catholicism was (and still often is) abused by the minority to retain political and economic power. The fact that religion can be misused so effectively doesn't prove that it is bad, only that it is very powerful. Slavery was ever aided and abetted by the bible, the bible says slavery is OK, tells how to mark slaves, how to treat slaves, how to sell slaves, how to free slaves (except female slaves). It was the religious who used the bible as justification for slavery in the south, before-during-after the civil war. Same argument as above. The war was about economics and states' rights, wasn't it? divine right of kings: Kings can do anything because god appointed them, and so they are acting on behalf of god. This is a pivotal christian doctrine. No, it is most certainly not. That is a medieval idea that was quite self-serving for those in power. Although the Bible says that leaders fulfill God's purposes, it also quite clearly says that the purpose may be to show people a negative example. Christianity teaches that *everyone* makes mistakes, except Adam before the Fall and Christ. You'd do well to learn more about what Christianity actually teaches if you're going to criticize it. Criticism that is based on extreme interpretations isn't going to convince the mainstream. We're not all right-wing fundamentalists. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
on 25/11/02 12:18 am, Alberto Monteiro at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Baker wrote: Questionable. Communist might be considered a kind of religion, as some of its dogmas are based on faith. It explicitly rejects supernatural explanations though. Some religions also deny supernatural explanations, like those that believe in psychic powers. Dialectical materialism might be wrong, but it is materialism. Also, for example, We take these truths to be self-evident... towards the beginning of the Declaration of Independence might be argued to make American democracy a kind of religion using similar reasoning. And I think it is also a kind of religion. If we're going to use a definition of religion that broad then... I'm not sure what I have to say on the matter. The real problem is that we **don't** have a decent definition of religion, as things that are considered religions by most people differ substantially. For example, compare religions that believe in a distant God that eventually interfers but will judge people after death to those mystic ufologists that believe that UFOs contact people using telepathy and nothing is supernatural, just supertech. Marxism, which provides remarkable evidence of the power of dominant key ideas to inspire and direct man, is undoubtedly one of the greatest challenges to traditional religious belief. Based on the socio-economic philosophical thought of the 19th-century thinker Karl Marx, Marxism can be said to be a quasi-religion on two counts. First, Marxism had connections with the metaphysics of G.W.F. Hegel, an 18th-19th-century German philosopher who interpreted reality in terms of a spiritual Absolute. Furthermore, the thinking of Marx had religious overtones, whether from his own Jewish background or from a Christian atmosphere, not least in Britain where he lived from 1849 to 1883. Second, Marxism can be called a quasi-religion insofar as it calls from its followers a devotion and a commitment that in their empirical character greatly resemble the commitment and devotion that characterize religious people. Marxism has undoubtedly fired the spirit of man and given to revolutions, whether in Russia or China, a powerful direction that has maintained stability and avoided anarchy. Furthermore, like a religion, it has provided themes of fulfillment and hope-a revolution interpreted as the initiation of a Communist world society that would be a final consummation. There are many logical similarities between the doctrine of the Marxist millennium and the Christian doctrine of Christ's Second Coming. Marxism has also stressed the significance of cooperating with the immanent spirit of the times-something comparable to the providence of God-in economic and military struggles that are viewed as the travail by which society would be reborn. The main difference between Marxism and Christianity in the 19th and early 20th centuries, according to some scholars, was that for many the Christian vision encouraged men to endure tyranny, while the Marxist view inspired men to rebel. Yet, once it can be established that religion is not the servant of oppression, is not necessarily linked with an illiberal regime, and does not use concepts of other worldliness to make men content with tyranny and injustice, then religion may yet have a place in the Communist state. Such a religion would not have to concern itself with the kind of supernaturalism that Marxism now rejects; it would not have to appeal to an invisible world entirely other than the present world. It is not without significance that Marxism has its own form of public ceremonial and its own language of glorification. If it has to be granted that many religions have a ceremonial, a symbolism, and a moral code that has lost the vision they once had, Marxism is a social program, a doctrine, and a ceremonial searching for a vision that haunts it and that may at some time bring it to fruition. In this regard, Chinese Marxism is particularly significant insofar as Marxism in China cannot escape some interweaving with Chinese Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism brings with it a natural framework of absolute Idealism, which may yet supply Marxism with the spiritual dimension that for many critics appears to be Marxism's main inadequacy, something it lost when it shed its Hegelian metaphysics and became the anti-God Materialistic world-view of the U.S.S.R.[1] [1]The Rt. Rev.Ian Thomas Ramsey(d. 1972)Lord Bishop of Durham, England, 1966-72. Nolloth Professor of the Philosophy of Christian Religion, University of Oxford, 1951-66. Author of Religious Language; Christian Discourse. In Encyclopaedia Britannica 2002. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
From: K. Feete [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: No. Which exactly my point. If I can't prove my own existence I also can't prove god's existence. Math exists whether god, the universe, consciousness, I, etc. exist. Math is the only thing that is transcendent. And those math proofs do exist. Yes, but, as Searle and Merleau-Ponty are both so fond of pointing out, no one seriously questions that they exist. It's simply that conciousness cannot be proven via scientific method because the scientific method relies on objectivity and conciousness is by its very nature subjective. I'd also question the mathematical point. One arguement is that math proofs only exist because we have a concept of mathematics, and so only exist because we are concious, and so are in fact based in a subjective assumption. GRIN But that's me, and therefore shaky. Let me refer you to Immanuel Kant: Galaxies, black holes, stars, all formed before the first single celled organism ate the second. This happened because of the intersection of two things: Mathematics and the four known fundamental constants. Had these constants been different the mathematics would have described a completely different universe, one that probably wouldn't have life. Math is transcendant. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Jeroen asked: At 20:30 24-11-2002 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote: Should the Internet be banned because some people send out spam? Should Internet discussion groups be banned because some people resort to personal attacks when they cannot win an argument? Jeroen Corruption delenda est van Baardwijk Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Comedy gold, sir. You really ought to take this act on tour. I mean, you make Jerry Lewis look like a mortician! Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Silence. I am watching television. - Spider Jerusalem ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: I think this is backwards from reality. Read His _Otherness_. Then consider two societies, the free west and thought police of the middle east, like saudi arabia. Which one bans things like pokemon? Freedom from the thought control of religion allows this 'otherness' meme to be so powerful in the west. But if the USA allows _Pokemon_, other Animes are banned, like _Card Captor Sakura_ and _Sailor Moon_ [who were savagely mutilated for USA audience] USA is closer to Saudi Arabia than to the Western Democracies :-P Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: conquistadors: conquer, take gold, convert to catholicism. Notice how most of south America is adamantly catholic? BTW, are you aware that Brazil is quickly becoming the biggest ex-Catholic country in the world? I guess if you count people that regularly go to Church, the Protestants will outnumber the Catholics. And our elected vice-President belongs to a party that is _controlled_ by the worst kind of Protestantism: those that worship Mammon. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
Alberto Monteiro wrote: And our elected vice-President belongs to a party that is _controlled_ by the worst kind of Protestantism: those that worship Mammon. How do you elect a socialist president and a vice president who worhips Mammon at the same time? Aren't they diammetrically opposed to each other? Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
--- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] quoted: snip ...Second, Marxism can be called a quasi-religion insofar as it calls from its followers a devotion and a commitment that in their empirical character greatly resemble the commitment and devotion that characterize religious people. Marxism has undoubtedly fired the spirit of man... [1]The Rt. Rev.Ian Thomas Ramsey(d. 1972)Lord Bishop of Durham, England, 1966-72. I have friends who suffer from Broncoism (Denver) and Tigerism (Louisiana State University): these conditions affect their dress (picture grandma in tiger-striped leotards), their pocketbooks (how many families of four can afford an evening at the Diaphragm - excuse me, Invesco Field), and their reasoning (there are schools where the second floor can't be used because the fire escape stairs are unsafe, but the city voters decided that it was more important to spend $280 million - or was it $318M? - than fix those stairs/roofs etc.). Otherwise They Are Rational People Maru ducking and running for cover :D __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
on 25/11/02 2:31 am, Dan Minette at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why must I use your definition? Yes, you found a theologian, at a minor school that agreed with you. A professor with a Chair at Oxford University? No, actually I was talking about the guy at Santa Barbara. The guy at Oxford didn't state that Marxism was a religion. But that was an overview article written for the Encyclopaedia Britannica. The theologian who described Marxism as a quasi-religion was Paul Tillich, one of the foremost theologians of the 20th century. Tillich, Paul (Johannes) born , Aug. 20, 1886, Starzeddel, Brandenburg, Ger. died Oct. 22, 1965, Chicago German-born U.S. theologian and philosopher whose discussions of God and faith illuminated and bound together the realms of traditional Christianity and modern culture. Some of his books, notably The Courage to Be (1952) and Dynamics of Faith (1957), reached a large public audience not usually concerned with religious matters. The three-volume Systematic Theology (1951-63) was the culmination of his rigorous examination of faith. snip several pages of biography etc Assessment. Tillich was a central figure in the intellectual life of his time both in Germany and the United States. It is generally held that the 20th century has been marked by a widespread breakdown of traditional Christian convictions about God, morality, and the meaning of human existence in general. In assessing Tillich's role in relation to this development, some critics have regarded him as the last major spokesman for a vanishing Christian culture, a systematic thinker who sought to demonstrate the reasonableness of the Christian faith to modern skeptics. Others have viewed him as a forerunner of the contemporary cultural revolution, whose discussions of the meaning of God and faith served themselves to undermine traditional beliefs. Tillich himself believed he was a boundary man, standing between the old and the new, between a heritage imbued with a sense of the sacred and the secular orientation of the new age. He asserted that his vocation was to mediate between the concerns voiced by faith and the imperatives of a questioning reason, thus helping to heal the ruptures threatening to destroy Western civilization. He believed that from the beginning life had prepared him for such a role, and his long career as a theologian, educator, and writer was devoted to this task with single-minded energy. [1] [1] Arne Unhjem Professor of Philosophy, Wagner College, Staten Island, New York. Author of Dynamics of Doubt: A Preface to Tillich. In Encyclopaedia Britannica 2002. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
I wrote: snip I have friends who suffer from Broncoism (Denver) and Tigerism (Louisiana State University): these conditions affect their dress (picture grandma in tiger-striped leotards), their pocketbooks (how many families of four can afford an evening at the Diaphragm - excuse me, Invesco Field), and their reasoning (there are schools where the second floor can't be used because the fire escape stairs are unsafe, but the city voters decided that it was more important to spend $280 million - or was it $318M?*** - than fix those stairs/roofs etc.). Otherwise They Are Rational People Maru ducking and running for cover :D ***Left off the on a new stadium part of the sentence. :P Debbi who used to be able to do sentence diagrams quite well __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:18 AM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually getting an academic job are essentially zero, but that's the way these things work nowadays... Gautam You're just in the wrong field . . . -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Kindness (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Adam C. Lipscomb Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:48 PM ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Comedy gold, sir. You really ought to take this act on tour. I mean, you make Jerry Lewis look like a mortician! I'm not sure if that was meant kindly or not, so I'll take advantage of the ambiguity to mention that your list administrators will endeavor to be fair in protecting *everyone* from personal attacks, regardless of whether or not they happen to be moderated, new, old, or a Hugo award winner. Well, perhaps we'll cut some slack for the latter category. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Ronald Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To me, a religion is any system of thought or ideaology in which, when you start asking questions, you soon reach the point where you have no choice but to passively accept what you are told: take my word for it or just have faith. By that definition, when I teach a subject like introductory astronomy or freshman math or physics for non-majors, I am teaching religion, because I frequently have to say, You'll just have to take my word for this, because, for example, to establish a particular result may require calculus or abstract algebra or other advanced courses which not only do we not expect the students at that level to have taken, but most of them will never take any time in their lives. That's not the point. They could in fact get to those proofs, even if they do not do so, those proofs do exist. With religion, those proofs do not exist. Some religions say that if you humble yourself, follow the commandments, and ask God sincerely, He will give you the proof. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:19 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:47 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated So, Marxism isn't a religion, because a Marxist will argue for his scientific proof of the dialectic till the day he dies. Yes. But not to me because I undertand logic and find marxism illogical. What is logic? Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad. So did smoke come out of your computer when you typed that? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:40 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated The Fool wrote: Are you trying to push godels theorem here? Now, *there's* something I'd like to see -- theorem pushers. :) As theorems go, that could be a difficult one to push. Proof of the quadratic equation, now, that's an easier pill to swallow. Julia who contributed to a drug law debate on another list recently and who has a I love the quadratic equation (except it's done all in symbols, but those are difficult to reproduce with plain text in an e-mail) t-shirt i should love the quadratic equation, since if it were not for the application of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra to equations like x²+1=0, mathematicians and physicists would use i a lot less often (and electrical engineers would never learn the tenth letter of the alphabet) . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated - Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated That's not the point. They could in fact get to those proofs, even if they do not do so, those proofs do exist. With religion, those proofs do not exist. Could you provide the proof that you are conscious to me? Not every day. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] a slight exaggeration. They existed from at least 1200's and annually killed [estimation] somewhere between 30k-50k people / year. It could actually be higher or lower than that. It comes out it the same ballpark as what the soviets did, but by a much smaller group of people, over a much greater period of time. They are where we got the english word 'thug' from. You call them the original terrorists, and that was why I was using them as an example. Ritu gave a good counter-cite to this; consistent with Gautam's view. This is not a cite, its a recap. No hard feelings, but I'm guessing that your source might have its roots in less than the best scholarship. Unless you did that work, it shouldn't be taken personally. :-) I cant possible find every source for everthing I've read five years ago, let alone two months ago. And I remember more than one source I read that said roughly similar if not exact things. The death toll wasn't the point. Wasn't the point that more people are killed in the name of religion than for secular reasons? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: William Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 3:52 PM Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated In a message dated 11/25/2002 2:34:21 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hope that isn't a rose -- I'm allergic. I'll make it a Carnation. An ice cream carnation, since Carnation is an old establised AZ brandname. Pink candycane flavored ice cream top, green cake icing for stem and petals. Just don't drip any on your white sport coat . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Erik Reuter wrote: The Zippo might be more effective than the knife. Just lure it into a tar/petroleum pit and light! Not bad! I like the Japanese version, by way of Usagi Yojimbo, that involves getting all the heads stinking drunk first, then killing the beast at one's leisure. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
The Fool - Isn't religion is evil a rather broad statement? Do you really believe ALL religions are inherently evil? Do no religions do any good for the world so that they must all be eradicated? As for the Crusades: http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Crusades.html . It took quite long, but I think civilization is slowly maturing -- and so are our religions (despite the fact some seem lodged in the past and are only maturing reluctantly). Looking at the world *today*, can you really say that all of the world's religions *as a whole* ultimately produce more far more bad than good in the world? Remember two things - 1) much of the world's charity is organized/administered by religions and 2) Just as you say that some people commit evil for their god, there are many (and I'd say far more) who commit good for their god. And I'd say the threat/promise of an afterlife that many religions have has a net postive effect. What justifies your absolutism to say religion must be eradicated? Does this absolutism apply to other institutions and facets of life? You never responded to other people's analogous questions, so I'll pose some here: - The Germans committed many evil, terrible atrocities in WWII. Should all Germans today be eradicated? - Alcohol has ruined lives, caused countless deaths, and probably even caused a number of wars. Should alcohol be abolished? - Some people will put forward a fervent case replete with proof that the USA (aka Great Satan) -or perhpas even all western civilization- is quite evil and should be eradicated. Would you agree? Honestly, I don't think anyone here is strongly debating whether assorted religions are responsible for some evils of the past/present. The thing is that you're overlooking a great many other factors, such as the fact that religions are human institutions and are subject to human fallibilities just like everything else we do. Also, economic factors play/played a big role in much religious zealotry of the present and past. Blaming religion without considering things such as these is only seeing a small part of the picture. -Bryon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
