RE: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
On Behalf Of Russell Chapman I agree with what you're saying, but I'm curious about why you would include TWA800 in the list. It is the one attack (if it was) on the US in recent times that (a) could have been done by a VERY few people - I mean Stingers go missing all the time and it only takes one person to drive out to the island and launch and (b) where very little meaningful evidence has been recovered. Let's see if I can remember what was said at the time. I'm not bothering to look this up so it is from memory. At the time of that crash, the story was that the Navy was on maneuvers off Long Island. One of the ships accidentally (or purposely) fired an anti-aircraft missile that hit TWA800 and caused the crash. That means that at the very least, every sailor on that particular ship would have to be sworn to secrecy. And any sailors on any nearby ships that might have heard or seen anything. And their families... That adds up to a lot of people pretty quickly. My recollection is that there was quite a bit of that airframe recovered. There wasn't much meaningful evidence because there wasn't much evidence to be found. No signs of external explosions or missile hit. We may not know for sure what caused TWA800 to explode but we know pretty well what did not. - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Chapman Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:47 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980 Horn, John wrote: Maybe. But it definitely illustrates that if you want to keep a conspiracy like this secret, you need to keep the number of people who know about it to a very, very few. Not the thousands or hundreds of thousands needed for something like 9/11. Or the downing of TWA flight 800. Or even UFOs at Roswell. Now, a handful of CIA officers who wanted to take out JFK, that would be a different story (not that I believe that particular conspiracy anymore). I agree with what you're saying, but I'm curious about why you would include TWA800 in the list. It is the one attack (if it was) on the US in recent times that (b) where very little meaningful evidence has been recovered. This is a popular myth, but I've seen the reconstructed plane on TV reports a number of years ago and it looked rather substantial. An analysis is available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 quote Eventually, more than 95% of the airplane wreckage was recovered.[6] As the wreckage recovery progressed, three main debris fields emerged. The yellow zone, red zone, and green zone contained wreckage from front, center and rear sections of the airplane, respectively.[6] The green zone with the aft portion of the aircraft was located the furthest along the flight path.[6].. Factors such as witness reports of a streak of light and then a fireball, as well radar data recorded by a radar site at Islip, New York,[6] led the NTSB to consider the possibility that a bomb exploded inside the airplane or that a shoulder-launched missile exploded upon impact with the airplane.[6] Testing conducted by the FBI found trace amounts of explosives on three seperate pieces (described as a piece of canvaslike material and two pieces of a floor panel).[6] However no damage characteristics typically associated with a high-energy explosion of a bomb of missile warhead (such as severe pitting, cratering, petalling, or hot gas washing) were found on the recovered wreckage, including the pieces which tested positive for explosives.[6] Of the 5 percent of the fuselage that was not recovered, none of the missing areas was large enough to have encompassed all the damage that would have been caused by the detonation of a bomb or missile.[6] In addition, none of the victim's remains showed evidence of injuries that could have been caused by high-energy explosives.[6] end quote So, there was really a fair amount of data to base the conclusion on. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
On Behalf Of Dan Minette (b) where very little meaningful evidence has been recovered. This is a popular myth, but I've seen the reconstructed plane on TV reports a number of years ago and it looked rather substantial That reminds me of more people who would have to be involved in this conspiracy. All of the people doing the recovery, research and analysis of the pieces of the aircraft. - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] This story is pretty far out there. (he he, he he, he he, he said far ] out) ] And it remained, not secret, but under the radar for over 25 years. ] Both of those facts are worthy of remark. ] ] To be fair, I don't think it effects the arguments against 911 ] conspiracies to any great degree, but I do think the current ] controversy over the firings of US Attorneys and similar controversies ] that seed conspiracy theories *can* be effected by such revelations. A ] lot of Time/Money/Manpower went into pulling off this scam and making ] it successful, not to mention keeping it quiet until the greater ] series of events (The Hostage Crisis) was resolved. ] ] I imagine that the question of how many of such operations are pulled ] off successfully and without drawing public scrutiny occur, as ] compared to those that fail and/or are leaked publicly before ] completion, is a variable that must be posited. ] ] But overall, this story changes my perception of the potential success ] rate of conspiracies and the ability to keep them out of the public ] consciousness for long periods. This was a conspiracy that was active for a short time (not years or decades) and had a small number of people who even knew about it. It had a publicly visible component that could explain unusual behavior. Once it was finished, the number of people in the know remained small, and they had rules in place about when to reveal their secret (no need to get in trouble by talking now if you know it will be OK to talk in 30 years...) Many of the grand conspiracy theories lack these kind of details that would help them stay quiet. -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
Horn, John wrote: Maybe. But it definitely illustrates that if you want to keep a conspiracy like this secret, you need to keep the number of people who know about it to a very, very few. Not the thousands or hundreds of thousands needed for something like 9/11. Or the downing of TWA flight 800. Or even UFOs at Roswell. Now, a handful of CIA officers who wanted to take out JFK, that would be a different story (not that I believe that particular conspiracy anymore). I agree with what you're saying, but I'm curious about why you would include TWA800 in the list. It is the one attack (if it was) on the US in recent times that (a) could have been done by a VERY few people - I mean Stingers go missing all the time and it only takes one person to drive out to the island and launch and (b) where very little meaningful evidence has been recovered. As far as I could tell from the other side of the world, it didn't seem to have much effect on policy in terms of anti-terrorist funding or policy change, so there wouldn't have been much point for the hawks to carry it out... Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger But overall, this story changes my perception of the potential success rate of conspiracies and the ability to keep them out of the public consciousness for long periods. Maybe. But it definitely illustrates that if you want to keep a conspiracy like this secret, you need to keep the number of people who know about it to a very, very few. Not the thousands or hundreds of thousands needed for something like 9/11. Or the downing of TWA flight 800. Or even UFOs at Roswell. Now, a handful of CIA officers who wanted to take out JFK, that would be a different story (not that I believe that particular conspiracy anymore). - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
- Original Message - From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 11:18 PM Subject: Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980 On 4/28/07, Robert G. Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an amazing story and is purportedly true. I've seen some corroborating evidence that supports the story from other sources. Amazing story. Definitely seems true, because a quick google search turned up this: https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art1.html This is a CIA historical study, written by Mendez himself. It's very readable and it adds a lot of details not covered in the Wired article. One fun tidbit: An ironic coda: by the time Studio Six folded several weeks after the rescue, we had received 26 scripts, including some potential moneymakers. One was from Steven Spielberg. I suppose I am in a strange mood this morning, but something occurs to me. If we accept this story as factual, not only in the general sense, but in it's particulars; then I believe it has to effect the way we filter conspiracy theories. This story is pretty far out there. (he he, he he, he he, he said far out) And it remained, not secret, but under the radar for over 25 years. Both of those facts are worthy of remark. To be fair, I don't think it effects the arguments against 911 conspiracies to any great degree, but I do think the current controversy over the firings of US Attorneys and similar controversies that seed conspiracy theories *can* be effected by such revelations. A lot of Time/Money/Manpower went into pulling off this scam and making it successful, not to mention keeping it quiet until the greater series of events (The Hostage Crisis) was resolved. I imagine that the question of how many of such operations are pulled off successfully and without drawing public scrutiny occur, as compared to those that fail and/or are leaked publicly before completion, is a variable that must be posited. But overall, this story changes my perception of the potential success rate of conspiracies and the ability to keep them out of the public consciousness for long periods. xponent Sekrits 101 Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
On 4/29/07, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But overall, this story changes my perception of the potential success rate of conspiracies and the ability to keep them out of the public consciousness for long periods. Not for me. Per the Mendez version, the press were already hot on the trail of the existence of the 6 free in Iran. It took a promise of an post-rescue exclusive to a reporter to hold things back. And after the rescue, Canada's large role was immediately and widely acclaimed. So the who (the Canadians and the 6 trapped Americans), the what (the americnas exfiltrated under the noses of the Iranians with enormous Canadian help), and a significant part of the how (Canadians provided authentic passports to help them walk past security). What's left makes for a very interesting story and perhaps a made for TV movie, but is hardly a conspiracy-class secret. Aside from someone wanting to cash in on the story in some minor way, I don't see much motivation for people to spill the beans. Compare that to a 9-11 class conspiracy theory, in which people theoretically betrayed their own country and people, and where coming out with the truth in a credible way could literally topple the highest reaches of the goverment. All it would take is one guilty conscience, belated bout of patriotism, or disgruntled insider looking to make amends, become famous, or get revenge to blow it open. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fake Sci-Fi Heroics 1979-1980
On 4/28/07, Robert G. Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an amazing story and is purportedly true. I've seen some corroborating evidence that supports the story from other sources. Amazing story. Definitely seems true, because a quick google search turned up this: https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art1.html This is a CIA historical study, written by Mendez himself. It's very readable and it adds a lot of details not covered in the Wired article. One fun tidbit: An ironic coda: by the time Studio Six folded several weeks after the rescue, we had received 26 scripts, including some potential moneymakers. One was from Steven Spielberg. -Bryon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
