Re: USA bashing is fun
On 23 Aug 2005, at 4:11 am, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Aug 21, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In part, it is because there are well-organized, well-funded groups behind the USA's anti-evolution crusade. Dave This is, however, a response that provides no information. There are well-organized and well-funded groups in the United States for _everything_. The amount of money thrown out by the Ford Foundation _by itself_ is probably more than all of the prominent right-wing funding sources put together, and George Soros just might be spending more than everyone else _combined_ (no one really knows). The question is, why do such groups exist/have power in the US when they don't exist elsewhere? A couple of the other posters suggested an answer, though. It is a truism said so often that people forget its meaning that American politics are far less elite-driven than those of other democracies (see, for example, the death penalty debate in the US versus Europe). In this case some of the other posters have written things wihch suggest that where there are significant evangelical and/or fundamentalist religious populations in other industrialized states they too object - it's just that in the US they are able to influence the political process, while in Europe (for example) they are marginalized. This makes sense. "there is furious bewilderment here in the universities and the higher levels of business at the chilly indifference - not to say hostility - of the Bush White House to science. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4172504.stm -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Misuse of IMPs leads to strange, difficult-to-diagnose bugs. - Anguish et al. "Cocoa Programming" ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
On Aug 22, 2005, at 8:11 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: A couple of the other posters suggested an answer, though. It is a truism said so often that people forget its meaning that American politics are far less elite-driven than those of other democracies (see, for example, the death penalty debate in the US versus Europe). In this case some of the other posters have written things wihch suggest that where there are significant evangelical and/or fundamentalist religious populations in other industrialized states they too object - it's just that in the US they are able to influence the political process, while in Europe (for example) they are marginalized. This makes sense. Yeah, that could be part of it all right. You asked a hell of a good question, and when you look at the places where the "teach the controversy" movement has really gained a foothold you see a *tendency* toward more fundamentalist Biblical thinking. Kansas and Texas, after all, aren't rife with nexi of liberal thought. The ID-iots did a very clever thing, too. By forcing their case in *Texas*, they effectively guaranteed that the entire nation will be embroiled, because textbook publishers aren't going to produce special editions just for Texas, which is (IIRC) the single largest buyer of schoolbooks in the US. This means the "only a theory" disclaimer, if it's added to textbooks for Texas, will surface in editions used throughout the US. There really is a lot of ability for people in the US to have tremendous influence over areas in which they have absolutely no expertise -- including being able to dictate what kinds of subjects can be covered in primary education. If there were an alternate story for algebra -- something steeped in myth -- I wouldn't be surprised to find that it, too, would have to be included in math courses. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror" http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
--- Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Aug 21, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: > > --- Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > In part, it is because there are well-organized, > well-funded groups behind the USA's anti-evolution > crusade. > > Dave This is, however, a response that provides no information. There are well-organized and well-funded groups in the United States for _everything_. The amount of money thrown out by the Ford Foundation _by itself_ is probably more than all of the prominent right-wing funding sources put together, and George Soros just might be spending more than everyone else _combined_ (no one really knows). The question is, why do such groups exist/have power in the US when they don't exist elsewhere? A couple of the other posters suggested an answer, though. It is a truism said so often that people forget its meaning that American politics are far less elite-driven than those of other democracies (see, for example, the death penalty debate in the US versus Europe). In this case some of the other posters have written things wihch suggest that where there are significant evangelical and/or fundamentalist religious populations in other industrialized states they too object - it's just that in the US they are able to influence the political process, while in Europe (for example) they are marginalized. This makes sense. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
On Aug 21, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Today's biggest br newspaper has a huge story about the return of Creationism to USA classes. It has the general flavour of "look how those USAns are stupid to believe this nonsense". Now, the interesting question for me is, why does this essentially only happen in the United States? The US is the most religious industrial nation, so I have to ask - do Christian Third World nations even teach about evolutionary theory? Do they have debates over whether it is taught? Why _just_ here? I honestly have no idea, and would be very curious as to anyone else's thoughts on the subject. In part, it is because there are well-organized, well-funded groups behind the USA's anti-evolution crusade. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
On Aug 22, 2005, at 3:49 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: AM/PM is another weird way to express time. Why does 12 PM follow 11 AM? It makes no sense. Well, of course, meridian = middle, ad = before and post: after, so "ad meridian" means before the middle and "post meridian" after the middle. Of the day, presumably. 12 PM (exactly 12:00:00 -- you know, the time that is flashing on your VCR) is neither AM nor PM -- it is M. Then again, the "meridian" is supposed to be the middle of the day, but noon is not the middle of the day for most latitudes for most of the year. The times we refer to as 12PM begin an instant after M. What's wrong with our system is that midnight and noon are referred to as 12, rather than zero. And now, I must get back to my work, which, oddly enough, involves time and data calculations lately. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
Gautam Mukunda wrote: Now, the interesting question for me is, why does this essentially only happen in the United States? The US is the most religious industrial nation, so I have to ask - do Christian Third World nations even teach about evolutionary theory? Do they have debates over whether it is taught? Why _just_ here? I honestly have no idea, and would be very curious as to anyone else's thoughts on the subject. Sadly, it isn't just here in the US. A few years ago this tendency reared its head in the UK. Here's one link as an example, where creationism was (is?) actually taught with evolution: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/longview_20020409.shtml I think I also saw last year an article about how it's slowly becoming an issue in Europe. Here's one example of that (and not even the one I was thinking of): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3635794.stm Try googling "creationism schools Europe" for many more. Amanda ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Steve Sloan wrote: I'll grant you that doing day-month-year dates makes more sense than what we do, but only slightly. Day-month-year is still stupid, because it makes more sense for the highest-order to be first, so it should really be year-month-day. That way, you can sort on a computer much more easily, and it just makes more sense in general. That's the ISO standard. AFAIK, only Japanese use it regularly. It bugs me almost as much as my alarm clock, which turns a little LED on in the display to denote AM. It would make *much* more sense for PM to be the high bit, if you have to use 12-hour time at all. AM/PM is another weird way to express time. Why does 12 PM follow 11 AM? It makes no sense. There's not really any such thing as 12PM -- 12:01PM, yes, but 12:00 is NOON. PM is "post meridian" which means "after noon". How can you be noon AND after noon at the same time? :) (I think the 24-hour clock makes more sense.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
On 22 Aug 2005, at 1:35 am, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Today's biggest br newspaper has a huge story about the return of Creationism to USA classes. It has the general flavour of "look how those USAns are stupid to believe this nonsense". Alberto Monteiro Now, the interesting question for me is, why does this essentially only happen in the United States? The US is the most religious industrial nation, so I have to ask - do Christian Third World nations even teach about evolutionary theory? Do they have debates over whether it is taught? Why _just_ here? I honestly have no idea, and would be very curious as to anyone else's thoughts on the subject. I thought that although fundamentalism was on the rise in third world Christian countries they were still mostly Catholic and Anglican which accept evolution. The USA is unusual for being abnormally fundamentalist as well as abnormally religious. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
Steve Sloan wrote: > > I'll grant you that doing day-month-year dates makes more > sense than what we do, but only slightly. Day-month-year is > still stupid, because it makes more sense for the highest-order > to be first, so it should really be year-month-day. That way, > you can sort on a computer much more easily, and it just makes > more sense in general. > That's the ISO standard. AFAIK, only Japanese use it regularly. > It bugs me almost as much as my alarm clock, which turns a > little LED on in the display to denote AM. It would make > *much* more sense for PM to be the high bit, if you have > to use 12-hour time at all. > AM/PM is another weird way to express time. Why does 12 PM follow 11 AM? It makes no sense. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
At 07:53 PM Sunday 8/21/2005, Alberto Monteiro wrote: playing a football that does not use the feet nor a ball, etc. New vocabulary word: PUNT: It ain't just a type of water craft. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
Alberto Monteiro wrote: > No idea. Maybe it's because the USA likes to single it out > against the rest of the world - like refusing to use metric, > using the middle-endian calendar system, I'll grant you that doing day-month-year dates makes more sense than what we do, but only slightly. Day-month-year is still stupid, because it makes more sense for the highest-order to be first, so it should really be year-month-day. That way, you can sort on a computer much more easily, and it just makes more sense in general. It bugs me almost as much as my alarm clock, which turns a little LED on in the display to denote AM. It would make *much* more sense for PM to be the high bit, if you have to use 12-hour time at all. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama => [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
Gautam Mukunda wrote: > >> Today's biggest br newspaper has a huge story about >> the return of Creationism to USA classes. It has the >> general flavour of "look how those USAns are stupid to >> believe this nonsense". > > Now, the interesting question for me is, why does this > essentially only happen in the United States? > A good question. > The US > is the most religious industrial nation, so I have to > ask - do Christian Third World nations even teach > about evolutionary theory? > Huh? I guess you mean "do Christian Third World nations even teach about creationism?". In my schoolyears I never heard about creationism - except as a historical thing that had been abandoned in every country even before Darwin, placed in the same bullshit bag with platygaeaism, phlogistonism and liberal capitalism O:-) > Do they have debates over whether it is taught? > Creationism? No. Evolution? Yes. > Why _just_ here? I honestly > have no idea, and would be very curious as to anyone > else's thoughts on the subject. > No idea. Maybe it's because the USA likes to single it out against the rest of the world - like refusing to use metric, using the middle-endian calendar system, playing a football that does not use the feet nor a ball, etc. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
At 07:35 PM Sunday 8/21/2005, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Today's biggest br newspaper has a huge story about > the > return of Creationism to USA classes. It has the > general > flavour of "look how those USAns are stupid to > believe > this nonsense". > > Alberto Monteiro Now, the interesting question for me is, why does this essentially only happen in the United States? The US is the most religious industrial nation, so I have to ask - do Christian Third World nations even teach about evolutionary theory? Do they have debates over whether it is taught? Why _just_ here? I honestly have no idea, and would be very curious as to anyone else's thoughts on the subject. A couple of "positive" answers: (1) The US has a diverse society, so you're likely to find people with different opinions on any given issue. (2) People in the US generally feel free to express their different opinions. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
--- Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Today's biggest br newspaper has a huge story about > the > return of Creationism to USA classes. It has the > general > flavour of "look how those USAns are stupid to > believe > this nonsense". > > Alberto Monteiro Now, the interesting question for me is, why does this essentially only happen in the United States? The US is the most religious industrial nation, so I have to ask - do Christian Third World nations even teach about evolutionary theory? Do they have debates over whether it is taught? Why _just_ here? I honestly have no idea, and would be very curious as to anyone else's thoughts on the subject. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: USA bashing is fun
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Today's biggest br newspaper has a huge story about the return of Creationism to USA classes. It has the general flavour of "look how those USAns are stupid to believe this nonsense". Yeah. I have a half-formulated response to anyone seriously backing it that hits them below the belt. Something about faith and Thomas the Apostle and stuff. Need to get my reference straight (so as to quote chapter and verse nicely) and figure out the most effective wording. Of course, if I ever actually use it, I'm likely to be met with either stunned silence or someone screaming at me because I've really angered them. Julia and when I have it figured out, I'll post it. Really. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
