[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, > noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to > handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will > not transfer to anyone. I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment for handling them. I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime, the conversion business is still good. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 4:34 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, > > noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to > > handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will > > not transfer to anyone. > > I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody > manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment > for handling them. > > I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime, > the conversion business is still good. > > --Chuck > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of magnetic material? Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would that also need to be bespoke manufactured? How precisely does the coating need to be put down? It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we tend not to BE reasonable and practical. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage.
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
In "Secret Life of Machines", season 2, episode 6, they make crude audio
tape from powdered rust and sticky tape ("Scotch tape" for those
unconcerned about trademarks)
. . . would have to be a lot less crude than that
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust altogether. The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 7:57 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage. > > I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches > of > > 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? > > Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of > magnetic material? > > Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media > that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would > that also need to be bespoke manufactured? > > How precisely does the coating need to be put down? > > It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we > tend not to BE reasonable and practical. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com Reasonable? Are you serious? We run decades, even half century old computing machines in our garages for fun. I would've suggested the manufacturers of debit/credit cards as a source for the magnetic material but that seems to be giving way to the chips. But I'll be willing to bet a supplier could be found on Ali Baba for some sort of magnetic thin film material. It would be cheating, but floppy disks won't be re-invented in a day. Ultimately, it would be fun to actually mix up the magnetic paste and apply it to a flexible mylar disc with a centrifuge. It would definitely be an adventure. And a very unreasonable one at that. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust altogether. The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" other than nostalgia.
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/2023 10:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" other than nostalgia. I've actually considered trying to research finding equipment to manufacture such media, and/or recreating it. Everyone needs another hobby, right? That said, in my day job, I've seen IT folks at times be their worst enemy in focusing so much energy in keeping outdated items running, only to discover a lack of support to upgrade/replace said items because they've removed the friction of staying with the outdated device/system. Part of me sees the same issue here. It'd be expensive but not insurmountable to recreate lots of media options, and even more realistic if some of the old manufacturing equipment is still mothballed and not scrapped. But, putting new floppy disk media into the market, even at inflated prices, would remove the friction IT resources have depended on to force governments and businesses to at least migrate to solid state replacements, if not fully upgraded systems. Obviously, the cost (and the fact that finding existing equipment to un-mothball is the much more realistic an option to pursue rather than trying to fabricate new equipment) is a significant roadblock, but I also hesitate for the above reason. It's almost like a few more years need to pass, to force the remaining holdouts to realize floppydisk.com and eBay and the nature of rust glued onto mylar will not exist much longer at quality levels that companies can risk. Then, I'm hoping someone with deeper pockets than I starts production :-) Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. Cz On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > >Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting >that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things >for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to >anyone. > >Interesting thoughts there. > >Jim > >-- >Jim Brain >br...@jbrain.com >www.jbrain.com >
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Thats exactly the solution. Just keep a few floppies around so that you can transfer a saved image back to floppy to be read by the machine that needs it. Personally, there was so much media manufactured that I think the machines that read the media will fail long before we run out of media. Wayne > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Christopher Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on > something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 > floppies go > > I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. > > Cz > >> On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk >> wrote: >> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >> >> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting >> that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle >> things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not >> transfer to anyone. >> >> Interesting thoughts there. >> >> Jim >> >> -- >> Jim Brain >> br...@jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >>
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. ATR Magnetics (www.atrtape.com) and others still produce audio tape. They have normal consumer-style stuff up to the 2" reels. Not sure if the 2" stuff they sell will work on digital machines like the Sony DASH machines. Cassette tapes are kind of back a little as well and apparently there are duplication houses for them again. -- : Ethan O'Toole
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Floppydisk.com also sells 100 promotional disks (no working disks) for $12. They also sell 5.25 nonworking ones with different colors that can be used for projects. I think those would be nice for making art projects at schools, mancaves, and home offices. Good coffee coasters like the old days too. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, RETRO Innovations via cctalk > wrote: > > https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ > > Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting > that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things > for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to > anyone. > > Interesting thoughts there. > > Jim > > -- > RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic Systems > www.go4retro.com > store.go4retro.com >
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of >>> 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment? > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust >> altogether. >> >> The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if >> anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the >> same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however. >> >> Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market... > > I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" > other than nostalgia. There's an old saying that the perfect business to be in is one large enough for one vendor, too small for two. It certainly would be conceivable for somoene to buy up the business when the current owner retires, if there's reason to believe there is enough revenue to keep one or two people happy. It's no different from the thousands or perhaps millions of small manufacturing businesses. Curiously enough, some of these close down when the owner retires without an apparent effort to find a buyer -- I remember a local tote bag company, or for that matter the much lamented Lindsay Publications. For a nice example of a small business in our subject area, consider Ersatz-11. paul
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/9/23 22:14, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust altogether. Yup, my year-2000 pick and place machine had a 3.5" floppy drive, but I had no confidence that any old disks would be workable, and I had no other machines with drives for that. So, I got one of those floppy emulators that takes a USB thumb drive and emulates a bunch of 1.44 MB floppies. It worked great until I figured out how to get the network running on that machine. (It runs Win 95 and needs it because user programs access hardware directly. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" floppies will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and data loss from charge depletion though I might not be around to see that be a big problem :-) Don't toss your 5.25" floppies though :-) I'll take 'em :-) (though I probably shouldn't :-) ). No 3.5" HD though I have enough of those to last a lifetime if they last :-) -- Curt On 2023-03-09 19:53, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. Cz On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone. Interesting thoughts there. Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/10/2023 11:52 AM, rescue via cctalk wrote: If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" floppies will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and data loss from charge depletion though I might not be around to see that be a big problem :-) I have floppies, 5 1/4" and 8" , that have sat around my basement in cardboard boxes for over 40 year that are all perfectly readable. I expect to run out of hardware capable of reading them long before they become unreadable. bill
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff transfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a mess and I have to check heads on all new disks. Kind of like the tk50 tapes On March 10, 2023 11:52:29 AM EST, rescue via cctalk wrote: > >If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" floppies >will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and data loss from >charge depletion though I might not be around to see that be a big >problem :-) > >Don't toss your 5.25" floppies though :-) I'll take 'em :-) (though I >probably shouldn't :-) ). > >No 3.5" HD though I have enough of those to last a lifetime if they >last :-) > >-- Curt > >On 2023-03-09 19:53, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on >> something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let >> 5.25 floppies go >> >> I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images. >> >> Cz >> >> On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk >> wrote: >>> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/ >>> >>> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, >>> noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to >>> handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will not >>> transfer to anyone. >>> >>> Interesting thoughts there. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> -- >>> Jim Brain >>> br...@jbrain.com >>> www.jbrain.com >>> >
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/10/23 09:25, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff > transfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a mess > and I have to check heads on all new disks. > > Kind of like the tk50 tapes Cyclomethicone works a treat for recovering data from these shedding-like-an-angora-cat media. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 10:58 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/10/23 09:25, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff > transfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a > mess and I have to check heads on all new disks. > > > > Kind of like the tk50 tapes > > Cyclomethicone works a treat for recovering data from these > shedding-like-an-angora-cat media. > > --Chuck > Please explain, Chuck. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Please explain, Chuck. Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read. Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface. I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies. I use the stuff on tapes as well. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 1:12 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > > Please explain, Chuck. > > Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just > before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the > stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It > lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read. > Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface. > > I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies. > > I use the stuff on tapes as well. Just when you think you've heard of everything. How long have you been keeping this knowledge from us? https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Moments-RMCYCL100-Cyclomethicone-Liquid/dp/B00I5HBBGW $15 for 125mL. Sounds like that would be good for hundreds of disks. Sellam > >
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 03:12 PM To: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Please explain, Chuck. Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read. Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface. I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies. I use the stuff on tapes as well. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/10/23 13:22, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Just when you think you've heard of everything. How long have you been > keeping this knowledge from us? > > https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Moments-RMCYCL100-Cyclomethicone-Liquid/dp/B00I5HBBGW > > $15 for 125mL. Sounds like that would be good for hundreds of disks. I've mentioned it multiple times on VCF and it's also mentioned on Herb Johnson's retrocomputing web site. I can't risk clobbering a client's disk or tape, particularly not one sent by an institution's achivist of whom I'd like to remain on the good side. D5/Cyclo has been a lifesaver. The stuff is slick but inert; it's used extensively in cosmetics and lotions. It's also somewhat volatile, so it evaporates after awhile. Hair detangler is a very notable use of it that even finds use in equine circles. I suspect that you could drink the stuff and not suffer anything but a bad stomach ache, but I'm not about to prove it. Another bottle of stuff that I keep around for softening rubber pinch rollers and capstans is methyl salicylate/oil of wintergreen. Smells to high heaven like arthritis cream. Mixed with a mild solvent (e.g. xylene) it softens hard rubber up quite nicely, but your shop smells like a gym locker room for a time. And of course, heptane for cleaning--dissolves glue, cleans tape heads, etc. without harming plastics or staining paper. FWIW, Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote: > Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose. I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of hours. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are they not good at holding temp control? I thought I had heard of a few folks using those for reflow jobs, etc. Especially since there's not risk of using an oven you might want out of later. The more I think about it though, the risk of a Fisher Price toy on someone's important data sounds sort of stupid. But might be a cheap home solution for less important data. On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? > > I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air > circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W > incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some > folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose. > > I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of > hours. >
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
I’ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. There’s a few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too. I think there was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2023, at 11:52, John Herron via cctalk > wrote: > > Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are > they not good at holding temp control? > > I thought I had heard of a few folks using those for reflow jobs, etc. > Especially since there's not risk of using an oven you might want out of > later. > > The more I think about it though, the risk of a Fisher Price toy on > someone's important data sounds sort of stupid. But might be a cheap home > solution for less important data. > > >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote: >>> Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks? >> >> I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air >> circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W >> incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some >> folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose. >> >> I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of >> hours. >>
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/11/23 11:51, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are > they not good at holding temp control? No--you really need good temperature control for two reasons (at least in my experience): 1. Magnetic media on a mylar substrate doesn't have much thermal inertia, unlike a PCB. So when the temperature goes way above set point, it can do damage. Recall that you're working with plastics. 2. You're walking a fine line on temperature. Much higher, and the medium could be damaged, but too low and baking does little good. Check with the tapeheads people--the audio tape fraternity does a lot of this sort of thing. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
> On Mar 11, 2023, at 3:18 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > I’ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. There’s a > few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too. I think there > was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago. Yes, for example you can get an oven controller from Dbit (John Wilson, author of Ersatz-11) to do that. I remember an article in a German ham radio magazine that discusses the subject, and points out that it's trickier than you might think. The reason is that toaster ovens are basically IR heaters, so the temperature of the object depends on how much it absorbs. In the article there was a suggestion to attach the thermistor used by the controller to a second PCB similar to the one being reflowed, so it would sense a temperature close to that of the real board. paul
[cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/11/23 14:18, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: I’ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. There’s a few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too. I think there was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago. I have used a large GE toaster oven to reflow over 2000 boards. I got a ramp and soak thermocouple controller (it allow you to program temp points and time intervals between the points) and poke a micro-size thermocouple into a PC board plated through hole. Thus it controls actual board temperature. Jon
