Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development 
company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions 
for mid-level developers that have been open for months.

Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for 
this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone walks 
through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth 
- if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers 
(which seem to be easier to find too!).

All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k salary 
really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Kristopher Pilles]

I dunno, that's tough.  I work as a mid-level/senior level (4yrs exp.)
CF developer here on long island and my salary is closer to 65/70 and
I'm getting a ton of benefits and vacation time.  

The consulting firm we bring in to hepl from time to time had an opening
a few months back and they tried a lower base (55ish I believe) and they
had trouble filling the spot.  They eventually killed the position and
hired a recent grad to train themselves at a lower starting base.  So,
that might be an idea for you if you have enough senior level guys to
oversee their work.

KP

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?


I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for
months.

Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).

All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
appropriate?



~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Ray Champagne]

LOLone could argue the converse of that, too.  Where are all the 
jobs for the mid-level developers?  Seriously, this is the first one I 
have seen in a while.  Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye 
out for them, somewhat.  I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to 
look over the fence to "the other side"!

Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other 
words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd 
take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that 
our living expenses are much lower that in NY.

Ray

Daniel Brown wrote:
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web 
> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 
> 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
> 
> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for 
> this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone 
> walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid 
> the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior 
> developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k 
> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
> 
> 

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jerry Johnson]

$45-50K is right for a mid-level CF developer in the woods of Eastern
Connecticut. I must assume that the cost of living is a little higher in
NYC.

Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company


-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for
months.

Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).

All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
appropriate?



~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Kang]

50K should be OK in downtown NY as long as the inflation has stopped
for over 5 years. :-)

On 4/29/05, Jerry Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> $45-50K is right for a mid-level CF developer in the woods of Eastern
> Connecticut. I must assume that the cost of living is a little higher in
> NYC.
> 
> Jerry Johnson
> Web Developer
> Dolan Media Company
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
> 
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
> have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for
> months.
> 
> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
> for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
> someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
> to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
> very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
> appropriate?
> 
> 

~|
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Kristopher Pilles]

If you offered my 50k to telecommute I would give my notice today. (1
office visit a week would be fine by me)

KP

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?


I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for
months.

Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).

All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
appropriate?



~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

It's a NY thing. To get a CF job in NY most of the time you have to go 
through a recruiter and that makes it look like there are few CF jobs in the 
city. That causes most people in NY (who would learn it otherwise) not to 
learn CF. This causes people like you to suffer. It's a vicious cycle.
If you want, I can train some low level people up to middle level rather 
quickly or can come in for some spot work as needed.
Having some low level people with a good mentor on call can make them mid 
level really quickly.


>I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web 
>development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now 
>have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
>
> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying 
> for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions 
> someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want 
> to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a 
> very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k 
> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
>
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

Not really. I had a 'contract' with a company which turned out to be for 54k 
a year on a 1099 in NY. It was not enough to keep me afloat especially after 
they didn't pick up my medical as they had agreed to (among other things). 
For someone with a family, a job has to have medical or else it's an extra 
12k a year or so in insurance. For a single, 50k might be ok, but

> Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other
> words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd
> take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that
> our living expenses are much lower that in NY.


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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Viktors Rotanovs]

Hi,

maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after 
paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.

viktors

Daniel Brown wrote:
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web 
> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 
> 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
> 
> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for 
> this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone 
> walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid 
> the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior 
> developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k 
> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
> 
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. 
That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the 
burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A 
W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get 
money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can.

> maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
> paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
>
> viktors
>
> Daniel Brown wrote:
>> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web 
>> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now 
>> have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
>>
>> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying 
>> for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions 
>> someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want 
>> to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a 
>> very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>>
>> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k 
>> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone 
>> appropriate?
>>
>>
>
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Kang]

Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html)
will give you an idea.

Daniel

On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so.
> That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the
> burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A
> W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get
> money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can.
> 
> > maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
> > paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
> >
> > viktors
> >
> > Daniel Brown wrote:
> >> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
> >> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
> >> have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
> >>
> >> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
> >> for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
> >> someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
> >> to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
> >> very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >>
> >> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
> >> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
> >> appropriate?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jeffry Houser]

  If you can find a CF Developer in CT, of course.  I used to think I was 
the only one.  Now after taking over management of the user group, I think 
I think I'm one of 4.

  One of my clients was looking to add someone on staff in Southwestern CT 
and couldn't find anyone in that range.  Of course, Southwestern CT has a 
different cost of living than Eastern CT.



At 01:57 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>$45-50K is right for a mid-level CF developer in the woods of Eastern
>Connecticut. I must assume that the cost of living is a little higher in
>NYC.
>
>Jerry Johnson
>Web Developer
>Dolan Media Company
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
>development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
>have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for
>months.
>
>Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
>for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
>someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
>to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
>very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>
>All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
>salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
>appropriate?
>
>
>
>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Viktors Rotanovs]

Thanks Michael and Daniel!

Daniel Kang wrote:
> Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html)
> will give you an idea.
> 
> Daniel
> 
> On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so.
>>That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the
>>burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A
>>W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get
>>money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can.
>>
>>
>>>maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
>>>paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
>>>
>>>viktors
>>>
>>>Daniel Brown wrote:
>>>
I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.

Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).

All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
appropriate?


>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Ray Champagne]

Good point with the Medical Insurance thing.  I have no kids, but my 
next job will defintely have Insurance as a benfit, or I am not even 
looking at it.  Paying out-of-pocket sucks for us.  (My wife's in the 
same boat - we work for small employers who can't afford to stay afloat 
and pay insurance benefits).

Michael Dinowitz wrote:
> Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. 
> That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the 
> burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A 
> W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get 
> money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can.
> 
> 
>>maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
>>paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
>>
>>viktors
>>
>>Daniel Brown wrote:
>>
>>>I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web 
>>>development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now 
>>>have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
>>>
>>>Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying 
>>>for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions 
>>>someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want 
>>>to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a 
>>>very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>>>
>>>All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k 
>>>salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone 
>>>appropriate?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jeffry Houser]

   I budget 40% of all my income for taxes.  Basically, 33% to the 
government plus an additional 7% (I think that is the "employers" portion 
of Social Security).

  Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as 
a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what you are taking as a 
contractor.  Do you just mean as a W2 they take out money each paycheck, 
whereas w/ a 1099 you have to pay quarterly (on your own)?

At 02:15 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so.
>That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the
>burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A
>W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get
>money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can.
>
> > maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
> > paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
> >
> > viktors
> >
> > Daniel Brown wrote:
> >> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
> >> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
> >> have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
> >>
> >> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
> >> for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
> >> someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want
> >> to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a
> >> very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >>
> >> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
> >> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
> >> appropriate?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jacob]

50K a year in Southern California would get you nowhere...

-Original Message-
From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:54 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

LOLone could argue the converse of that, too.  Where are all the 
jobs for the mid-level developers?  Seriously, this is the first one I 
have seen in a while.  Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye 
out for them, somewhat.  I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to 
look over the fence to "the other side"!

Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other 
words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd 
take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that 
our living expenses are much lower that in NY.

Ray

Daniel Brown wrote:
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
> 
> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone
walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid
the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
> 
> 



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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

>50K should be OK in downtown NY as long as the inflation has stopped
>for over 5 years. :-)
>
>On 4/29/05, Jerry Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>

Just to work in manhattan, you don't need to live here.

I know, because none of my current team (including me) live here - we all 
commute from NJ, or another NY boro.  Cost of living is quite reasonable if you 
do that, and the commute isn't too expensive.

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jacob]

$11.93 in Southern California after...

Federal Income Tax
State Income Tax
Sales Tax
Property Tax
Gas Tax
Soc Security Tax
Medicare Tax

-Original Message-
From: Viktors Rotanovs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 11:09 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

Hi,

maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after 
paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.

viktors

Daniel Brown wrote:
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
> 
> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone
walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid
the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
> 
> 



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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Aaron Rouse]

I was curious about that as well. Right now I am doing 1099 and making my 
quartly payments. I figure about 35% of my income towards taxes. When I look 
at my paychecks I feel like a rich man, too bad once I pay taxes(on my own) 
and deal with medical and so on, I am not really clearing a ton of money. :(

On 4/29/05, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> I budget 40% of all my income for taxes. Basically, 33% to the
> government plus an additional 7% (I think that is the "employers" portion
> of Social Security).
> 
> Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as
> a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what you are taking as a
> contractor. Do you just mean as a W2 they take out money each paycheck,
> whereas w/ a 1099 you have to pay quarterly (on your own)?
> 
>


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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099 
expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they 
1099ed me instead. As for reducing the burden, I've got children who go to 
private school, a wife who does not work outside the house (Fusion Authority 
is not a paying job), a business (House of Fusion) that makes almost no 
money a year while having expenses (the machines, software, etc.) and 
various work related equipment.
A W2 employee can't take transportation or business meals as an expense but 
a 1099 person can. A person with a small business (such as me) can take 
certain business related expenses for hardware, software, books, 
conferences, etc.
It's all a game between the government, a company and a person. 
Unfortunately I'm losing it. :(

>  Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as
> a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what you are taking as a
> contractor.  Do you just mean as a W2 they take out money each paycheck,
> whereas w/ a 1099 you have to pay quarterly (on your own)?
>
> At 02:15 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>>Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or 
>>so.
>>That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the
>>burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. 
>>A
>>W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually 
>>get
>>money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can.
>>
>> > maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k 
>> > after
>> > paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
>> >
>> > viktors
>> >
>> > Daniel Brown wrote:
>> >> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
>> >> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we 
>> >> now
>> >> have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for 
>> >> months.
>> >>
>> >> Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have 
>> >> applying
>> >> for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions
>> >> someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they 
>> >> want
>> >> to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire 
>> >> a
>> >> very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>> >>
>> >> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a 
>> >> $50k
>> >> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone
>> >> appropriate?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
> 

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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Aaron Rouse]

I took "advantage" of this last year since a 1099 and self-employed and 
needed a new vehicle. I went out and bought a truck that was of the proper 
weight class so was able to right off a huge chunk of its purchase price and 
that helped me out enormously with taxes for 2004. Too bad I am thus far am 
not finding something for 2005 to help out near to that extent.

On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> A W2 employee can't take transportation or business meals as an expense 
> but
> a 1099 person can. A person with a small business (such as me) can take
> certain business related expenses for hardware, software, books,
> conferences, etc.
> It's all a game between the government, a company and a person.
> Unfortunately I'm losing it. :(
> 
>


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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

> if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers 
> (which seem to be easier to find too!).

A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
went?

I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.

(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
before you start demanding higher salary)

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jeff Congdon]

(if you're living and working in these locations)

50k in NYC is worth 36k in San Diego.
50k in NYC is worth 33k in Seattle.

Seattle and San Diego are both relatively expensive places to live.  And 
for 33k in Seattle, I'd expect to get a strictly entry level developer 
and I'd feel blessed if they had any experience.

65k in NYC is worth 47k in San Diego.
65k in NYC is worth 43k in Seattle.

Are these full time salaries?  I think it's borderline-delusional to 
expect an experienced dev to work at the first rate, and moreso for an 
'expert' dev to work at the second rate, as somebody who has lived and 
worked in both San Diego and Seattle, but not NYC.

-Jeff

(all salary comparisons done via salary.com)

Jacob wrote:

>50K a year in Southern California would get you nowhere...
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:54 AM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>LOLone could argue the converse of that, too.  Where are all the 
>jobs for the mid-level developers?  Seriously, this is the first one I 
>have seen in a while.  Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye 
>out for them, somewhat.  I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to 
>look over the fence to "the other side"!
>
>Let me ask a question - is $50K a "good" salary for a NYC job?  In other 
>words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region?  I'd 
>take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that 
>our living expenses are much lower that in NY.
>
>Ray
>
>Daniel Brown wrote:
>  
>
>>I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
>>
>>
>development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
>have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
>  
>
>>Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying
>>
>>
>for this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone
>walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid
>the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
>developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>  
>
>>All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
>>
>>
>salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
>  
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jeffry Houser]

At 02:34 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099
>expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they
>1099ed me instead.

  It sounds to me as if you are not eliminating your burden, just the way 
its paid.


--
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AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
--
My Company: 
My Books: 
My Recording Studio: 
Connecticut Macromedia User Group:  



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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

> > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior 
> developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> went?
> 
> I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> 
> (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> before you start demanding higher salary)
> 
> -- 
> ~Blog~
> http://www.robrohan.com
> ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
> ~open source xslt IDE~
> http://treebeard.sourceforge.
net

Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere near 
true.

I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, 
although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than 
that.

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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere 
> near true

Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and
$50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business
they work in. Many people are self-employed.

http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm

google

On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >
> > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> > went?
> >
> > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> >
> > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> > before you start demanding higher salary)
> >
> > --
> > ~Blog~
> > http://www.robrohan.com
> > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> net
> 
..
> 
> I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, 
> although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than 
> that.
> 
> 

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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth 
alot less than US dollars.

As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is 
$25k/yr.

http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886


> > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is 
> anywhere near true
> 
> Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 
> and
> $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business
> they work in. Many people are self-employed.
> 
> http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm
> 
> google
> 
> On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> > >
> > > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost 
> of
> > > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF 
> developers
> > > went?
> > >
> > > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast 
> food
> > > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> > >
> > > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your 
> area
> > > before you start demanding higher salary)
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~Blog~
> > > http://www.robrohan.com
> > > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> > net
> > 
...
> 
> > 
> > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds 
> for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn 
> so much more than that.
> > 
> > http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Kristopher Pilles]

My cousin is a manager for Checkers here in NY and he pulls about 75k
per year

-Original Message-
From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:28 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?


> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is 
> anywhere near true

Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and
$50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they
work in. Many people are self-employed.

http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm

google

On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >
> > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of 
> > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF 
> > developers went?
> >
> > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food 
> > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior 
> > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> >
> > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your 
> > area before you start demanding higher salary)
> >
> > --
> > ~Blog~
> > http://www.robrohan.com
> > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> net
> 
...
> 
> I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for 
> $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so 
> much more than that.
> 
> 



~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

BAH! I suck

But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job
(50K) my dad was berly making more than me at like 65K (that was quite
a while ago too)


On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are 
> worth alot less than US dollars.
> 
> As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is 
> $25k/yr.
> 
> http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886
> 
> 
> > > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is
> > anywhere near true
> >
> > Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000
> > and
> > $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business
> > they work in. Many people are self-employed.
> >
> > http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm
> >
> > google
> >
> > On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > > > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> > > >
> > > > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost
> > of
> > > > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF
> > developers
> > > > went?
> > > >
> > > > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast
> > food
> > > > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > > > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> > > >
> > > > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your
> > area
> > > > before you start demanding higher salary)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ~Blog~
> > > > http://www.robrohan.com
> > > > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > > > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > > > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > > > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> > > net
> > >
> ...
> >
> > >
> > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds
> > for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn
> > so much more than that.
> > >
> > > http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886
> 
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

OK. In response to the need for mid level CF developers in NY, I'm going to 
post my availability as a ColdFusion Guru and Mentor to the CF-Jobs list. All 
I'll do is be on call to answer clients questions in a way that makes them (the 
developers) think on a 'higher level' as well as come in for spot training and 
reviews. Take a low level and make them a mid or better as well as make 
everyone 'feel' better to have a guru on call.

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

And I cant spell to boot...

But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job
(50K) my dad was *barely* making more than me at like 65K (that was
quite a while ago too)

On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BAH! I suck
> 

> 
> 
> On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are 
> > worth alot less than US dollars.
> >
> > As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is 
> > $25k/yr.
> >
> > http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886
> >
> >
> > > > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is
> > > anywhere near true
> > >
> > > Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000
> > > and
> > > $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business
> > > they work in. Many people are self-employed.
> > >
> > > http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm
> > >
> > > google
> > >
> > > On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > > > > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> > > > >
> > > > > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost
> > > of
> > > > > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF
> > > developers
> > > > > went?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast
> > > food
> > > > > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > > > > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> > > > >
> > > > > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your
> > > area
> > > > > before you start demanding higher salary)
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > ~Blog~
> > > > > http://www.robrohan.com
> > > > > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > > > > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > > > > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > > > > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> > > > net
> > > >
> > ...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds
> > > for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn
> > > so much more than that.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886
> >
> > 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

Hmmm - how come my email address started showing up in the posts?

I'll look forward to the spam from that being harvested :|

> > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is 
> anywhere near true
> 
> Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 
> and
> $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business
> they work in. Many people are self-employed.
> 
> http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm
> 
> google
> 
> On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> > >
> > > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost 
> of
> > > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF 
> developers
> > > went?
> > >
> > > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast 
> food
> > > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> > >
> > > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your 
> area
> > > before you start demanding higher salary)
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~Blog~
> > > http://www.robrohan.com
> > > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> > net
> > 
...
> 
> > 
> > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds 
> for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn 
> so much more than that.
> > 
> > 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Adam Haskell]

I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may
not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY
for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect
atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring
cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would
have to expect atleast $70k to consider..

A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio
and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the
year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he
ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week.

Adam H 

On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >
> > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> > went?
> >
> > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> >
> > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> > before you start demanding higher salary)
> >
> > --
> > ~Blog~
> > http://www.robrohan.com
> > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> net
> 
> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere 
> near true.
> 
> I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, 
> although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than 
> that.
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

Ah yeah I see - I am in California and that's median... Cal = 40K 

On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are 
> worth alot less than US dollars.
> 
> As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is 
> $25k/yr.
> 
> http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886
> 
> 
> > > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is
> > anywhere near true

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Kang]

The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!

Daniel

On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers 
> > (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> 
> A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> went?
> 
> I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> 
> (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> before you start demanding higher salary)
> 
> --
> ~Blog~
> http://www.robrohan.com
> ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> ~open source xslt IDE~
> http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live
in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which
are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living.



ecommerce partners, inc.
Daniel Brown
ECommerce Partners 
59 Franklin Street 
New York N.Y 10013 
T 212-334-3390   
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.ecommercepartners.net 
www.7Designers.com 
Directions to our office



-Original Message-
From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may
not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY
for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect
atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring
cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would
have to expect atleast $70k to consider..

A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio
and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the
year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he
ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week.

Adam H 

On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >
> > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> > went?
> >
> > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> >
> > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> > before you start demanding higher salary)
> >
> > --
> > ~Blog~
> > http://www.robrohan.com
> > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> net
> 
> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere
near true.
> 
> I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for
$8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much
more than that.
> 
> 



~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Adam Haskell]

Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather 
has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to
say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but
limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for
those .NET lovers.  But thats my 2 cents :)

Adam H

On 4/29/05, Daniel Kang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
> others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
> 
> Daniel

~|
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efficiency by 100%
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

holy crap - I should watch out for my signature when replying too!

>Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live
>in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which
>are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living.
>
>
>
>ecommerce partners, inc.   
>Daniel Brown
>ECommerce Partners 
>59 Franklin Street 
>New York N.Y 10013 
>T 212-334-3390   
> 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>www.ecommercepartners.net 
>www.7Designers.com 
>Directions to our office   
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
>50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may
>not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY
>for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect
>atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring
>cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would
>have to expect atleast $70k to consider..
>
>A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio
>and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the
>year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he
>ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week.
>
>Adam H 
>
>On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>near true.
>> 
>> I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for
>$8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much
>more than that.
>> 
>>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This 
is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers 
are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent 
architect, programmer, or even tester.

~Simon

Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




Daniel Kang wrote:

>The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
>others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
>
>Daniel
>
>On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>>if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers 
>>>(which seem to be easier to find too!).
>>>  
>>>
>>A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
>>living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
>>went?
>>
>>I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
>>restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
>>developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
>>
>>(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
>>before you start demanding higher salary)
>>
>>--
>>~Blog~
>>http://www.robrohan.com
>>~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
>>http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
>>~open source xslt IDE~
>>http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

well personally, I sure wouldn't consider taking a job in NY for 50K.

~Simon

Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




Daniel Brown wrote:

>Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live
>in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which
>are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living.
>
>
>
>ecommerce partners, inc.   
>Daniel Brown
>ECommerce Partners 
>59 Franklin Street 
>New York N.Y 10013 
>T 212-334-3390   
> 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>www.ecommercepartners.net 
>www.7Designers.com 
>Directions to our office   
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
>50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may
>not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY
>for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect
>atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring
>cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would
>have to expect atleast $70k to consider..
>
>A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio
>and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the
>year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he
>ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week.
>
>Adam H 
>
>On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior


>>>developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>>>
>>>A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
>>>living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
>>>went?
>>>
>>>I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
>>>restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
>>>developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
>>>
>>>(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
>>>before you start demanding higher salary)
>>>
>>>--
>>>~Blog~
>>>http://www.robrohan.com
>>>~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
>>>http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
>>>~open source xslt IDE~
>>>http://treebeard.sourceforge.
>>>  
>>>
>>net
>>
>>Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere
>>
>>
>near true.
>  
>
>>I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for
>>
>>
>$8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much
>more than that.
>  
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Kang]

If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
for CF developers who are doing only coding???

Daniel

On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This
> is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
> are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
> architect, programmer, or even tester.
> 
> ~Simon
> 
> Simon Horwith
> CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
> Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
> Member of Team Macromedia
> Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
> Blog - http://www.horwith.com
> 
> 
> Daniel Kang wrote:
> 
> >The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
> >others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
> >
> >Daniel
> >
> >On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers 
> >>>(which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> >>living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> >>went?
> >>
> >>I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> >>restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> >>developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> >>
> >>(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> >>before you start demanding higher salary)
> >>
> >>--
> >>~Blog~
> >>http://www.robrohan.com
> >>~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> >>http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> >>~open source xslt IDE~
> >>http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Kristopher Pilles]

You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy
in India.

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?


Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't
live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY
boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living.



ecommerce partners, inc.
Daniel Brown
ECommerce Partners 
59 Franklin Street 
New York N.Y 10013 
T 212-334-3390   
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.ecommercepartners.net 
www.7Designers.com 
Directions to our office



-Original Message-
From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not
even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY for
midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast
55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked
at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect
atleast $70k to consider..

A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and
made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year.
However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually
averaged 50-55 hours /week.

Adam H 

On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >
> > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of 
> > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF 
> > developers went?
> >
> > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food 
> > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior 
> > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> >
> > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your 
> > area before you start demanding higher salary)
> >
> > --
> > ~Blog~
> > http://www.robrohan.com
> > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> net
> 
> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is 
> anywhere
near true.
> 
> I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for
$8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so
much more than that.
> 
> 





~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Aaron Rouse]

Maybe they could put a ship out off the coast near NYC
 http://www.sea-code.com/

 On 4/29/05, Kristopher Pilles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy
> in India.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
> 
> Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't
> live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY
> boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living.
> 
> ecommerce partners, inc.
> Daniel Brown
> ECommerce Partners
> 59 Franklin Street
> New York N.Y 10013
> T 212-334-3390
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.ecommercepartners.net 
> www.7Designers.com 
> Directions to our office
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
> 
> I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
> 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not
> even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY for
> midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast
> 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked
> at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect
> atleast $70k to consider..
> 
> A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and
> made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year.
> However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually
> averaged 50-55 hours /week.
> 
> Adam H
> 
> On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> > > developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> > >
> > > A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> > > living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF
> > > developers went?
> > >
> > > I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> > > restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> > > developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> > >
> > > (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your
> > > area before you start demanding higher salary)
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~Blog~
> > > http://www.robrohan.com
> > > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> > > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> > > ~open source xslt IDE~
> > > http://treebeard.sourceforge.
> > net
> >
> > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is
> > anywhere
> near true.
> >
> > I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for
> $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so
> much more than that.
> >
> >
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my 
experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of 
a high salary.  That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who 
write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding 
techniques moreso than CF.  CF makes it easy to write "bad" code.  
That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and 
write "bad" code (whch many do).  There's no reason why a CF developer 
that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as 
much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications, 
provided they're both competent.  To be honest, most Java developers are 
more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - 
there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  An 
"expert" CF Developer is really worth more than an "expert" java 
developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their 
environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest.  
Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java 
developers).

~Simon

Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




Daniel Kang wrote:

>If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
>design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
>let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
>for CF developers who are doing only coding???
>
>Daniel
>
>On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This
>>is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
>>are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
>>architect, programmer, or even tester.
>>
>>~Simon
>>
>>Simon Horwith
>>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
>>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
>>Member of Team Macromedia
>>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
>>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>>
>>
>>Daniel Kang wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
>>>others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
>>>
>>>Daniel
>>>
>>>On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers 
>(which seem to be easier to find too!).
>
>
>  
>
A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
went?

I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.

(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
before you start demanding higher salary)

--
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net






>>>  
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[TinaRock]

In a message dated 4/29/2005 1:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k 
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?

In downtown New York City?  $50k is way too low.


~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Aaron Rouse]

Perhaps what you think is mid-level, others think is jr level? What does a 
Jr level CF person get in that area?
 I once applied for a Sr level full time job here with this company I am at 
now as a contractor. They never posted the pay range, I just assumed it 
wouldbe around what everyone else pays. When I got the job offer it was 
unbelieveably low, below 50k but I do not recall the exact number. I 
remember at the time thinking I could make more money being a manager at the 
WalMart near my home once factoring in less driving and so on. After seeing 
some of the projects the person they hired put out, they really should not 
have been looking for a Sr level person and most certainly did not hire 
someone who is at that level.

 On 4/29/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> In a message dated 4/29/2005 1:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k
> salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
>


~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

I agree with most that (most of the CF jobs I've gotten in the past
were inherited systems), but

> but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
> techniques moreso than CF.  

I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
java as it is in CF.

> To be honest, most Java developers are
> more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java -
> there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  

Well there is Java and then there are APIs - I know Java and the core
classes well, and I know quite a few APIs - but you are right that
it'd be almost impossible to know all java libraries everywhere, while
it'd be quite possible to "know" all of CF (aside from all the stuff
createObject / third party libraries give you)

Plus a good number of java people I have met are quite pompous (mostly
J2EE developers actually), and I would rather pay an un-pompous person
more than I would pay a jerk.

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

~|
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding techniques
> moreso than CF.

The Java code at one of my first real jobs was an abomination, utter
drivel, so I'd have to disagree with you.

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy. 
It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why 
I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should 
be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink 
their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often 
people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows 
them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm 
on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I 
think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior 
hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone 
should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least 
once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for 
review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the 
best they can.


> at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my
> experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of
> a high salary.  That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who
> write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
> techniques moreso than CF.  CF makes it easy to write "bad" code.
> That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and
> write "bad" code (whch many do).  There's no reason why a CF developer
> that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as
> much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications,
> provided they're both competent.  To be honest, most Java developers are
> more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java -
> there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  An
> "expert" CF Developer is really worth more than an "expert" java
> developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their
> environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest.
> Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java
> developers).
>
> ~Simon
>
> Simon Horwith
> CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
> Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
> Member of Team Macromedia
> Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
> Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Kang wrote:
>
>>If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
>>design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
>>let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
>>for CF developers who are doing only coding???
>>
>>Daniel
>>
>>On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This
>>>is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
>>>are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
>>>architect, programmer, or even tester.
>>>
>>>~Simon
>>>
>>>Simon Horwith
>>>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
>>>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
>>>Member of Team Macromedia
>>>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
>>>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Daniel Kang wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!

Daniel

On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




>>if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior 
>>developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
>living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
>went?
>
>I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
>restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
>developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
>
>(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
>before you start demanding higher salary)
>
>--
>~Blog~
>http://www.robrohan.com
>~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
>http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
>~open source xslt IDE~
>http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
>
>
>
>
>
>


>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

Rob wrote:

I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
java as it is in CF.


Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code 
and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF 
Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you 
picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd 
bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications 
would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said, 
that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the 
reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop 
things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most 
Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The 
code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great 
but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's 
more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, 
as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it 
allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation.

~Simon

>  
>
Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

I'm sure it was.. I've seen lots of bad Java code but it's not as 
common to have fundamental design flaws in Java as it is in CF.

~Simon

Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




Damien McKenna wrote:

>>-Original Message-
>>From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>
>>but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding techniques
>>moreso than CF.
>>
>>
>
>The Java code at one of my first real jobs was an abomination, utter
>drivel, so I'd have to disagree with you.
>
>  
>



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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Rob]

> Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code
> and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF
> Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you
> picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd
> bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications
> would be designed and developed less than perfectly. 

Yeah, I'd bet you are right there - I kind of glossed over the more so it seems

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

~|
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Ian Skinner]

I like that the question was "build a simple site" but this simple site needed 
objects, ties and business logic.  Sounds a bit advance for a simple five page 
brochure site.

Just an obsveration that one developers "simple" is anothers "too complex for 
the job."

Not saying anything about CF vs Java here, just commenting on the question.

--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
 
"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

-Original Message-
From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

Rob wrote:

I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
java as it is in CF.


Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code
and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF
Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you
picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd
bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications
would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said,
that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the
reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop
things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most
Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The
code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great
but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's
more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic,
as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it
allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation.

~Simon

>
>
Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com






~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more
resources?  Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice to
make more manageable code?

-Original Message-
From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:51 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy. 
It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why 
I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should

be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink 
their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often 
people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows 
them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm 
on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I 
think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior 
hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone

should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least 
once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for 
review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the 
best they can.


> at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my
> experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of
> a high salary.  That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who
> write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
> techniques moreso than CF.  CF makes it easy to write "bad" code.
> That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and
> write "bad" code (whch many do).  There's no reason why a CF developer
> that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as
> much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications,
> provided they're both competent.  To be honest, most Java developers are
> more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java -
> there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  An
> "expert" CF Developer is really worth more than an "expert" java
> developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their
> environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest.
> Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java
> developers).
>
> ~Simon
>
> Simon Horwith
> CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
> Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
> Member of Team Macromedia
> Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
> Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Kang wrote:
>
>>If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
>>design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
>>let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
>>for CF developers who are doing only coding???
>>
>>Daniel
>>
>>On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This
>>>is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
>>>are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
>>>architect, programmer, or even tester.
>>>
>>>~Simon
>>>
>>>Simon Horwith
>>>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
>>>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
>>>Member of Team Macromedia
>>>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
>>>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Daniel Kang wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!

Daniel

On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




>>if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior 
>>developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
>living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
>went?
>
>I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
>restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
>developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
>
>(PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
>before you start demanding higher salary)
>
>--
>~Blog~
>http://www.robrohan.com
>~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
>http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
>~open source xslt IDE~
>http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
>
>
>
>
>
>


>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> 



~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Daniel Brown]

For a "simple site" JAVA and a full blown tiered architecture are total
overkill.

I bet everything I've got that the CF developers would develop the simple
site in a lot less time ;-)





-Original Message-
From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

Rob wrote:

I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
java as it is in CF.


Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code 
and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF 
Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you 
picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd 
bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications 
would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said, 
that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the 
reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop 
things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most 
Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The 
code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great 
but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's 
more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, 
as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it 
allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation.

~Simon

>  
>
Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com






~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

well - that's the difference between a CF developer and a Java 
developer.  ALL SITES (let's assume I mean "all dynamic sites" - ignore 
static things) require Objects according to the average Java developer.  
Even the "simple" ones.  The average CF Developer probably wouldn't say 
the same.  Yes - a 5 page brochure site should have at least one object 
representing the brochure - probably another representing the person 
looking at it.  That's true whether you use CF or Java.  You know, if 
you dump the session scope in most apps I write, there's nothing but 
objects in it.  That's because I develop CF Apps the same way any other 
J2EE developer would.  Is it overkill?  That depends on who you ask... 
but I tell you what, to get back to the original topic, I'd take a CF 
Developer who's asking for a high salary much more seriously if they 
showed me a code sample and it was built that way.  As a matter of fact, 
at my last job I made more money than any of the java developers!

~Simon

Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




Ian Skinner wrote:

>I like that the question was "build a simple site" but this simple site needed 
>objects, ties and business logic.  Sounds a bit advance for a simple five page 
>brochure site.
>
>Just an obsveration that one developers "simple" is anothers "too complex for 
>the job."
>
>Not saying anything about CF vs Java here, just commenting on the question.
>
>--
>Ian Skinner
>Web Programmer
>BloodSource
>www.BloodSource.org
>Sacramento, CA
> 
>"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
>- Cynthia Dunning
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>Rob wrote:
>
>I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
>java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
>Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
>place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
>java as it is in CF.
>
>
>Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code
>and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF
>Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you
>picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd
>bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications
>would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said,
>that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the
>reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop
>things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most
>Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The
>code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great
>but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's
>more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic,
>as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it
>allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation.
>
>~Simon
>
>>
>>
>Simon Horwith
>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
>Member of Team Macromedia
>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Simon Horwith]

yes, a CF Developer would build the site quicker, but there's no reason 
not to build a simple site in Java if Java is what your company uses.  
As for "full blown tiered architecture" I disagreee with you (I think - 
it depends on what you mean, really).  A simple site that needs two 
objects - a brochure and a user, and has a couple views of pages showing 
brochure information should most likely be represented this way (to me - 
and remember, I am a bit of a purist when it comes to architecture):

In Java:
two Beans (not EJBs in something simple like this)
JSP Custom tags that talk to the beans and generate UI for pages and for 
Bean data
JSP files that call the JSP tags

In CF:
two CFCs
CFM Custom Tags that talk to the CFCs and generate UIs for pages and for 
CFC data
CFM files that call the CF Tags

Do you really see much difference betweeen the two?  Hardly.  This is 
how I develop everything for the most part.  The last project I was on, 
I spent a great deal of my time advising a team of Java developers on 
architecture even though it was them who had to actually build it... 
because architecture isn't concerned with the inner workings... the way 
you design and model software should be the same whether it's going to 
be implemented in CF or Java.  Obviously, Java does have one building 
construct for which there is no good equivellant in CFML, which is a 
servlet.  There are sticky implementation issues when something's been 
modelled for implementation with servlets but is going to be implemented 
in CFML.  Because the CF Server is a servlet pool of sorts, the easiest 
way to do that is to create the direcories required and a cfm (which 
then calls a tag which talks to CFCs) or to do the same but use SES 
URLs. If it's a servlet filter, CFMX 7's application framework 
fortunately lets you achieve the results you're looking for.  It all 
depends on what the servlets are intended to do but like I said, these 
are stickier to implement.  Fortunately, more often than not in my 
experience servlets aren't a requirement unless used for filtering 
requests and responses.

~Simon

Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
Blog - http://www.horwith.com




Daniel Brown wrote:

>For a "simple site" JAVA and a full blown tiered architecture are total
>overkill.
>
>I bet everything I've got that the CF developers would develop the simple
>site in a lot less time ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:50 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>Rob wrote:
>
>I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
>java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
>Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
>place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
>java as it is in CF.
>
>
>Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code 
>and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF 
>Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you 
>picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd 
>bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications 
>would be designed and developed less than perfectly.  Like I said, 
>that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the 
>reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop 
>things the wrong way.  Java is an Object Oriented language, and most 
>Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers.  The 
>code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great 
>but at least the code IS encapsulated as such.  With CF Developers it's 
>more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, 
>as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it 
>allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation.
>
>~Simon
>
>  
>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>Simon Horwith
>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
>Member of Team Macromedia
>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jeffry Houser]

  I think I mentioned this before on this list, but...

  Ben Forta mentioned (at Powered by Detroit) that one of the "biggest 
recruiting firms in the US" doesn't put CF in the job description when 
looking for CF Developers.  They look for Java Developers.  ( This is all 
paraphrased, of course ).
  But, these are enterprise level companies who use Java in the backend and 
CF for front end stuff / middleware.  The reasoning for this is similar to 
what Simon said below.  CF Developer's write bad code.

  I think the reason for this is that many CF Developers are not 
programmers by trade.  They do what it takes to get the job done, without 
thought to maintenance, re-use, structure, etc..  I'm working on one app 
now, which has (for example)...  templates with ~2,500 lines of code, only 
one line of documentation (which says "begin" and offers no more 
explanation) and very long lines (for example, an if statement with 5 else 
conditions written out on a single line ).  Formatted w/ an eye for 
readability I'm sure the template would double in size.


At 04:10 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my
>experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of
>a high salary.  That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who
>write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
>techniques moreso than CF.  CF makes it easy to write "bad" code.
>That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and
>write "bad" code (whch many do).  There's no reason why a CF developer
>that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as
>much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications,
>provided they're both competent.  To be honest, most Java developers are
>more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java -
>there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  An
>"expert" CF Developer is really worth more than an "expert" java
>developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their
>environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest.
>Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java
>developers).
>
>~Simon
>
>Simon Horwith
>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
>Member of Team Macromedia
>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
>
>
>
>
>Daniel Kang wrote:
>
> >If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
> >design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
> >let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
> >for CF developers who are doing only coding???
> >
> >Daniel
> >
> >On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This
> >>is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
> >>are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
> >>architect, programmer, or even tester.
> >>
> >>~Simon
> >>
> >>Simon Horwith
> >>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
> >>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
> >>Member of Team Macromedia
> >>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
> >>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
> >>
> >>
> >>Daniel Kang wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
> >>>others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
> >>>
> >>>Daniel
>
> >>>
> >>>On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior 
> developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> went?
> 
> I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior
> developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her.
> 
> (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area
> before you start demanding higher salary)
> 
> --
> ~Blog~
> http://www.robrohan.com
> ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
> http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
> ~open source xslt IDE~
> http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Michael Dinowitz]

Maybe, maybe not. Yes there is some minor (very minor) overhead when 
instantiating an object and passing data (by reference) to it but not much 
more so than using a custom tag or UDF. If you know what your doing and 
cache the objects than this overhead is pretty much gone and all your left 
with is clean, organized code.
The main drawback with OO is that people either don't know what they're 
doing or they are following it strictly to the OO letter rather than 
adapting the best of it to CF.


> Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more
> resources?  Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice 
> to
> make more manageable code?


~|
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Jeffry Houser]

  I have not heard any comparisons between OO and Procedural programming in 
terms of performance.  But, that said I would not expect the amount of 
resources needed to differ greatly between well-organized procedural code 
vs well organized OO code.  However, most of the CF code out there is just 
a whole lot of mish-mash.

  Considering that any given application spends most of its life in 
"maintenance" mode, I think anything you can do to ease maintenance would 
be of high importance.

At 05:05 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more
>resources?  Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice to
>make more manageable code?
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:51 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy.
>It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why
>I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should
>
>be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink
>their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often
>people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows
>them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm
>on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I
>think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior
>hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone
>
>should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least
>once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for
>review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the
>best they can.
>
>
> > at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my
> > experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of
> > a high salary.  That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who
> > write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
> > techniques moreso than CF.  CF makes it easy to write "bad" code.
> > That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and
> > write "bad" code (whch many do).  There's no reason why a CF developer
> > that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as
> > much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications,
> > provided they're both competent.  To be honest, most Java developers are
> > more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java -
> > there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them.  An
> > "expert" CF Developer is really worth more than an "expert" java
> > developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their
> > environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest.
> > Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java
> > developers).
> >
> > ~Simon
> >
> > Simon Horwith
> > CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
> > Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
> > Member of Team Macromedia
> > Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
> > Blog - http://www.horwith.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Daniel Kang wrote:
> >
> >>If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
> >>design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
> >>let's say, downtown NY?  Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
> >>for CF developers who are doing only coding???
> >>
> >>Daniel
> >>
> >>On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do.  This
> >>>is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
> >>>are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
> >>>architect, programmer, or even tester.
> >>>
> >>>~Simon
> >>>
> >>>Simon Horwith
> >>>CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
> >>>Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
> >>>Member of Team Macromedia
> >>>Macromedia Certified Master Instructor
> >>>Blog - http://www.horwith.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Daniel Kang wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
> others??   Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
> 
> Daniel
> 
> On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> >>developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> >living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> >went?
> >
> >I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food
> >restaurant managers make more th

RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Connie DeCinko]

$50K would be about right for the southwest here, but for NY?  Seems like
the cost of living would kill much of that.
 

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:50 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months.

Where have all the CF developers gone?  The only people I have applying for
this position have almost no experience.  On the rare occassions someone
walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid
the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).

All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience.  Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?





~|
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RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Connie DeCinko]

My wife is a fast food manager and maybe makes $35,000 in Phoenix.
 

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:19 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?


Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?  I don't think that is anywhere
near true.

I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr,
although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more
than that.




~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Glenn Saunders]

CF is a web application language.  It's not a language you can write 
multithreaded GUI applications in the way you can in Java or .NET.  It's 
not a general purpose desktop application language.

So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of 
work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI 
tools or shrinkwrapped software.

CF developers write for the web and that's that.  I have written backend 
services in CF and it's really not its strong point, believe me.



At 12:50 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather
>has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to
>say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but
>limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for
>those .NET lovers.  But thats my 2 cents :)




~|
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Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?

[Glenn Saunders]

At 01:49 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:

>Rob - I did say "more so".  Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code
>and I've seen a lot of bad CF code.  However, if you chose 500 CF
>Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you
>picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd
>bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications
>would be designed and developed less than perfectly.

I also think part of this is that there isn't enough supervision in places 
that use CF so that bad habits predominate.

For instance, rarely have I ever interviewed someone who didn't write code 
like this:



or



Obviously, CF is part of the problem for being so forgiving, but there is a 
lack of a serious engineering mindset in the CF world.  The people who are 
employing coders who write the above don't care because the applications 
still work.  They don't care how elegant the codebase is or whether it's a 
Rube Golberg device as long as it works.  So nobody forces them to 
change.  They spin their wheels for a couple years until they get layed off 
or something and they walk into a job interview with 2-3 years of CF listed 
on their resume and they are still chock full of bad coding habits!!

The CF culture brings in people from non-engineering backgrounds, ex Flash 
animators, designers who are doing double-duty.  People who cracked open 
the Forta book and learned enough to get by on the job and don't 
necessarily have the drive to improve their code because their passions 
really lie elsewhere.  And that's how this culture evolved.  That's why CF 
coders are treated like 2nd class citizens.



~|
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