Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread enigment

Just starting to look at the CF ORM stuff, pretty nice API, Hibernate
underneath, all good.

But as I understand it, ORM queries return arrays of cfc objects,
and I'm concerned about performance at scale. On a gut level, I'd
rather be able to get a native CF query, which I could deal with in
straight CF as usual, or through an IBO if I wanted object-like
behavior for that whole collection.

So...

- Is it possible to have CF ORM return a query, when I want it to?

- What's people's experience with this stuff at scale, meaning large
result sets, more than departmental traffic etc? Are there any largish
sites doing that?

Thanks,
Dave

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RE: Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread Russ Michaels

Well if you are doing A LOT of database transactions then you have to
consider the additional processing time and memory required by creating all
those objects.
Instantiating objects is nowhere near as much of a bottleneck as it used to
be, so it depends on your application and requirements.
It is a trade off at the end of the day, ORM increases productivity and
reduces complexity but at the same time you lose flexibility and control and
of course performance. 
If performance and scalability if your big concern for your database then
you should perhaps be looking at using stored procedures, I don't know how
hibernate copes with these, if at all but as the SQL and logic is in the SP,
I can't see benefit to using ORM to call the SP anyway.

--
Russ Michaels

FREE CFML hosting for developers
www.cfmldeveloper.com






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Re: Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread enigment

Not so much thinking about transactions, or avoiding straight queries
with stored procs, more about returning large result sets as native
queries rather than collections of cfc objects.

One possibility of course is to use ORM for single/composite record
detail, and native cf queries for search/list etc. That would be
looking at result lists as a reporting function, where you'd use
different (non-ORM) techniques.

Really just wondering if people are using ORM at scale, if they're
running into performance/memory issues, and how they're being dealt
with if so.

Dave

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:

 Well if you are doing A LOT of database transactions then you have to
 consider the additional processing time and memory required by creating all
 those objects.
 Instantiating objects is nowhere near as much of a bottleneck as it used to
 be, so it depends on your application and requirements.
 It is a trade off at the end of the day, ORM increases productivity and
 reduces complexity but at the same time you lose flexibility and control and
 of course performance.
 If performance and scalability if your big concern for your database then
 you should perhaps be looking at using stored procedures, I don't know how
 hibernate copes with these, if at all but as the SQL and logic is in the SP,
 I can't see benefit to using ORM to call the SP anyway.

 --
 Russ Michaels

 FREE CFML hosting for developers
 www.cfmldeveloper.com

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Re: Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread David McGraw

I haven't followed this entire chain, but I have always maintained that when
using an ORM, or I call a DAO ( Data Access Object ) there is always the
need to append custom functions that do crazy queries when you need to be as
efficient as possible.  When your using tools like an ORM, it's so that 80%
of your work is handled for you, fast and efficient, but it's not to ensure
you have to use it for everything.

Another thing to think about, when you can't seem to get the speed from an
ORM you would like, in order to get the best performance from your code, and
to keep your code DB independent, that's when stored procedures come into
play.  This will keep your code generic, and put the emphasis on the DB of
choice, and you can't get better scale or speed for complex needs than just
developing the process on the DB.

Regards,
David McGraw
Oyova Software, LLC
http://www.oyova.com


On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:07 AM, enigment enigm...@gmail.com wrote:


 Not so much thinking about transactions, or avoiding straight queries
 with stored procs, more about returning large result sets as native
 queries rather than collections of cfc objects.

 One possibility of course is to use ORM for single/composite record
 detail, and native cf queries for search/list etc. That would be
 looking at result lists as a reporting function, where you'd use
 different (non-ORM) techniques.

 Really just wondering if people are using ORM at scale, if they're
 running into performance/memory issues, and how they're being dealt
 with if so.

 Dave

 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
 wrote:
 
  Well if you are doing A LOT of database transactions then you have to
  consider the additional processing time and memory required by creating
 all
  those objects.
  Instantiating objects is nowhere near as much of a bottleneck as it used
 to
  be, so it depends on your application and requirements.
  It is a trade off at the end of the day, ORM increases productivity and
  reduces complexity but at the same time you lose flexibility and control
 and
  of course performance.
  If performance and scalability if your big concern for your database then
  you should perhaps be looking at using stored procedures, I don't know
 how
  hibernate copes with these, if at all but as the SQL and logic is in the
 SP,
  I can't see benefit to using ORM to call the SP anyway.
 
  --
  Russ Michaels
 
  FREE CFML hosting for developers
  www.cfmldeveloper.com

 

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cfdocument convert ppt to pdf loosing format

2010-10-22 Thread Victor Moore

Hi,

Did anybody managed to use cfdocument to convert a ppt to a pdf and
retain the original file formatting and images?

If  I open the ppt file and then convert to pdf all is well.

But if I try to do it from cf using cfdocument it fails miserably.

Of course  I told the customer it can be done (before actually testing
it, just from the docs) and now I'm on the hook.

Any ideas how (if) it can be done?

Thanks
Victor

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OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Sisk, Kris

I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a couple
of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go through and
convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using cfobject. How
much of a difference on my overhead will it make?

 

Kris Sisk

USD-457 Technology

1205 Fleming St.

Garden City, KS 67846

(620) 805-7107

 

There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary
and those who don't.

 



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Re: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Dave Watts

 I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a couple
 of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go through and
 convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using cfobject. How
 much of a difference on my overhead will it make?

It entirely depends on how CFINVOKE is being used, and whether you'd
be able to use CFOBJECT/CreateObject in a different way. If the CFCs
are stateless, would it make more sense for them to be stateful? If
they're already stateful, is CFINVOKE being used to return and reuse
an instance of the CFC?

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread David McGraw

Not 100% sure, but cfinvoke only calls a method, which in theory has to load
the object.  When you create the object vs CreateObject in cfscript, and
then call multiple methods based on that one loading command, you should see
improved performance.

Regards,
David McGraw
Oyova Software - http://www.oyova.com


On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Sisk, Kris ks...@gckschools.com wrote:


 I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a couple
 of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go through and
 convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using cfobject. How
 much of a difference on my overhead will it make?



 Kris Sisk

 USD-457 Technology

 1205 Fleming St.

 Garden City, KS 67846

 (620) 805-7107



 There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary
 and those who don't.





 

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Re: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Raymond Camden

No - cfinvoke can be used with an instantiated component.

cfset booger = new booger()
cfinvoke component=#booger# method=pick ...

Why would you bother? Well if a method has a complex API, you may find
it nicer to do in tags (cfinvoke+cfinvokeargument). Then again, a
method with a complex API is probably asking for a refactoring.


On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:47 AM, David McGraw david.mcg...@gmail.com wrote:

 Not 100% sure, but cfinvoke only calls a method, which in theory has to load
 the object.  When you create the object vs CreateObject in cfscript, and
 then call multiple methods based on that one loading command, you should see
 improved performance.

 Regards,
 David McGraw
 Oyova Software - http://www.oyova.com


 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Sisk, Kris ks...@gckschools.com wrote:


 I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a couple
 of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go through and
 convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using cfobject. How
 much of a difference on my overhead will it make?



 Kris Sisk

 USD-457 Technology

 1205 Fleming St.

 Garden City, KS 67846

 (620) 805-7107



 There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary
 and those who don't.







 

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Re: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Dave Watts

 Not 100% sure, but cfinvoke only calls a method, which in theory has to load
 the object.  When you create the object vs CreateObject in cfscript, and
 then call multiple methods based on that one loading command, you should see
 improved performance.

That is not necessarily the case. It's true that CFINVOKE calls a
method. But that method can return an instance of an object, which can
then be stored in a variable and used just like any other object.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite

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RE: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Russ Michaels

David,

IT makes no difference which you use as far a performance is concerned, at
least not that I have noticed. I actually prefer to use cfinvoke for
readability.
You can also make it stateful just as easy using cfinvoke simply by putting
it in application scope, then do a search an replace on your code and
replace componentname with #application.myvar# in all the cfinvokes.

Russ

-Original Message-
From: David McGraw [mailto:david.mcg...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 22 October 2010 15:47
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: OOP vs cfinvoke


Not 100% sure, but cfinvoke only calls a method, which in theory has to load
the object.  When you create the object vs CreateObject in cfscript, and
then call multiple methods based on that one loading command, you should see
improved performance.

Regards,
David McGraw
Oyova Software - http://www.oyova.com


On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Sisk, Kris ks...@gckschools.com wrote:


 I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a 
 couple of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go 
 through and convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using 
 cfobject. How much of a difference on my overhead will it make?



 Kris Sisk

 USD-457 Technology

 1205 Fleming St.

 Garden City, KS 67846

 (620) 805-7107



 There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand 
 binary and those who don't.





 



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Re: Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread Joe Rinehart

The rule of thumb we (myself, Brian Kotek, Marc Esher, and Scott
Stroz) are using on our first large CF ORM project is:

1.  If a service is working with changing data, use ORM.
2.  If an operation largely works with one item (e.g. a form or detail
page), use ORM.
3.  If we're going to show a list of things, especially across tables,
get off our butts and write a decent SELECT statement to return a
query.

The common argument against using a select/vanilla query is What it
the getters in my objects model formatting/custom logic?  Our
response to that is to factor that logic into a helper class that is
a) used by the object and b) used where the query is cfoutput'd.

-Joe


On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:44 AM, enigment enigm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Just starting to look at the CF ORM stuff, pretty nice API, Hibernate
 underneath, all good.

 But as I understand it, ORM queries return arrays of cfc objects,
 and I'm concerned about performance at scale. On a gut level, I'd
 rather be able to get a native CF query, which I could deal with in
 straight CF as usual, or through an IBO if I wanted object-like
 behavior for that whole collection.

 So...

 - Is it possible to have CF ORM return a query, when I want it to?

 - What's people's experience with this stuff at scale, meaning large
 result sets, more than departmental traffic etc? Are there any largish
 sites doing that?

 Thanks,
 Dave

 

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Re: Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread enigment

Thanks Joe, that's pretty much where I was headed too, with the
possible/probable exception of using something IBO-like to leverage
objects while iterating over a query. I grew up w SQL, never wanted
something to just make it go away, but clearly life should be
domain-object-centric, not db-centric.

Still haven't heard from anyone actually in production with a
large-scale ORM app yet. Maybe there just aren't any out there, around
a year after CF 9.0. Or maybe they don't read this list, at least this
quickly. We'll see...

Dave

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Joe Rinehart j...@firemoss.com wrote:

 The rule of thumb we (myself, Brian Kotek, Marc Esher, and Scott
 Stroz) are using on our first large CF ORM project is:

 1.  If a service is working with changing data, use ORM.
 2.  If an operation largely works with one item (e.g. a form or detail
 page), use ORM.
 3.  If we're going to show a list of things, especially across tables,
 get off our butts and write a decent SELECT statement to return a
 query.

 The common argument against using a select/vanilla query is What it
 the getters in my objects model formatting/custom logic?  Our
 response to that is to factor that logic into a helper class that is
 a) used by the object and b) used where the query is cfoutput'd.

 -Joe


 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:44 AM, enigment enigm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Just starting to look at the CF ORM stuff, pretty nice API, Hibernate
 underneath, all good.

 But as I understand it, ORM queries return arrays of cfc objects,
 and I'm concerned about performance at scale. On a gut level, I'd
 rather be able to get a native CF query, which I could deal with in
 straight CF as usual, or through an IBO if I wanted object-like
 behavior for that whole collection.

 So...

 - Is it possible to have CF ORM return a query, when I want it to?

 - What's people's experience with this stuff at scale, meaning large
 result sets, more than departmental traffic etc? Are there any largish
 sites doing that?

 Thanks,
 Dave



 

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RE: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Sisk, Kris

If I converted them to objects I would likely be using them the same way
that I do now, at least for the short term. The app is one that's been
up and working for quite some time. The CFCs are stateless right now. I
hadn't considered making them stateful, but that wouldn't be a bad idea
either. 

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:46 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: OOP vs cfinvoke


 I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a
couple
 of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go through and
 convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using cfobject. How
 much of a difference on my overhead will it make?

It entirely depends on how CFINVOKE is being used, and whether you'd
be able to use CFOBJECT/CreateObject in a different way. If the CFCs
are stateless, would it make more sense for them to be stateful? If
they're already stateful, is CFINVOKE being used to return and reuse
an instance of the CFC?

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.



~|
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Re: Does ORM scale?

2010-10-22 Thread Judah McAuley

Out of curiosity, Joe, are you writing vanilla SQL selects or are you
using hibernate HSQL for the selects? Do you have a reason one way or
the other?

Cheers,
Judah

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Joe Rinehart j...@firemoss.com wrote:

 The rule of thumb we (myself, Brian Kotek, Marc Esher, and Scott
 Stroz) are using on our first large CF ORM project is:

 1.  If a service is working with changing data, use ORM.
 2.  If an operation largely works with one item (e.g. a form or detail
 page), use ORM.
 3.  If we're going to show a list of things, especially across tables,
 get off our butts and write a decent SELECT statement to return a
 query.

 The common argument against using a select/vanilla query is What it
 the getters in my objects model formatting/custom logic?  Our
 response to that is to factor that logic into a helper class that is
 a) used by the object and b) used where the query is cfoutput'd.

 -Joe


 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:44 AM, enigment enigm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Just starting to look at the CF ORM stuff, pretty nice API, Hibernate
 underneath, all good.

 But as I understand it, ORM queries return arrays of cfc objects,
 and I'm concerned about performance at scale. On a gut level, I'd
 rather be able to get a native CF query, which I could deal with in
 straight CF as usual, or through an IBO if I wanted object-like
 behavior for that whole collection.

 So...

 - Is it possible to have CF ORM return a query, when I want it to?

 - What's people's experience with this stuff at scale, meaning large
 result sets, more than departmental traffic etc? Are there any largish
 sites doing that?

 Thanks,
 Dave



 

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Re: OOP vs cfinvoke

2010-10-22 Thread Scott Stewart

Ray, does this have a wipe or eat method?

(just had to it was there...)

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Raymond Camden rcam...@gmail.com wrote:

 No - cfinvoke can be used with an instantiated component.

 cfset booger = new booger()
 cfinvoke component=#booger# method=pick ...

 Why would you bother? Well if a method has a complex API, you may find
 it nicer to do in tags (cfinvoke+cfinvokeargument). Then again, a
 method with a complex API is probably asking for a refactoring.


 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:47 AM, David McGraw david.mcg...@gmail.com wrote:

 Not 100% sure, but cfinvoke only calls a method, which in theory has to load
 the object.  When you create the object vs CreateObject in cfscript, and
 then call multiple methods based on that one loading command, you should see
 improved performance.

 Regards,
 David McGraw
 Oyova Software - http://www.oyova.com


 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Sisk, Kris ks...@gckschools.com wrote:


 I've got an app here that has several hundred cfinvoke calls to a couple
 of CFCs. I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time to go through and
 convert the app from using cfinvoke constantly to using cfobject. How
 much of a difference on my overhead will it make?



 Kris Sisk

 USD-457 Technology

 1205 Fleming St.

 Garden City, KS 67846

 (620) 805-7107



 There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary
 and those who don't.









 

~|
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Re: cant access cf administrator

2010-10-22 Thread Jay Birdsell

Mack
add jdk160_12 to box, redefined JAVA_Home to point to it and problem solved!

thanks for the input!

Jay 

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Re: Importing from CSV to a database

2010-10-22 Thread Will Tomlinson

Thanks, but it is not that simple.
I have plenty of things to check, convert, validate, etc.
Don't forget an Excel file is created and filled by humans ;-)

I would figure out a way to use my RDBMS to handle this. Navicat or SQL Server 
tools to do it. 

Then clean the data or whatever once it's in there. To reference those crappy 
fieldnames you'll need to use aliases

SELECT some[space]crap[space] fieldname as somethingICanUse
FROM someTable 

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moveTo on cfwindow no longer working in CF9?

2010-10-22 Thread Mike

I recently upgraded to CF9 and have noticed that the moveTo function no 
longer seems to work to reposition a cfwindow.

I still have a CF8 server running and the same code works perfectly in 
CF8, but throws the following JS error in CF9:

Mywindow.moveTo is not a function

Here's the JS code:

rePositionWindow = function(windowName,x,y){

//Get window object
myWindow = ColdFusion.Window.getWindowObject(windowName);
winEl = myWindow.getEl();
//move the window
myWindow.moveTo(x,y);
}

Anyone got any ideas? Or another way to position a cfwindow where the 
user clicks?

Thanks,

Mike


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Re: Importing from CSV to a database

2010-10-22 Thread M P

I agree using something like Navicat to load the data would be a much better 
solution, but if you must use code, then I would parse those table names and 
replace all of the bad characters and spaces before creating the tables.

Special characters and spaces just cause too many problems to even try to use 
in table names. The only non-alphanumeric character I EVER use in a table name 
is an underscore.

Is there some reason you can't rename the tables when they're created to strip 
away the offensive characters?



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RE: moveTo on cfwindow no longer working in CF9?

2010-10-22 Thread Andrew Scott

Yeah there are major differences between ExtJS1.1 (ColdFusion 8) and ExtJS
3.1 (ColdFusion 9) you might want to try this instead:

Sets the page XY position of the component. To set the left and top instead,
use setPosition. This method fires the move event.
Parameters:

* x : Number
  The new x position
* y : Number
  The new y position

Returns:

* Ext.BoxComponent
  this

Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/



 -Original Message-
 From: Mike [mailto:miketot...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Saturday, 23 October 2010 8:07 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: moveTo on cfwindow no longer working in CF9?
 
 
 I recently upgraded to CF9 and have noticed that the moveTo function no
 longer seems to work to reposition a cfwindow.
 
 I still have a CF8 server running and the same code works perfectly in
CF8,
 but throws the following JS error in CF9:
 
 Mywindow.moveTo is not a function
 
 Here's the JS code:
 
 rePositionWindow = function(windowName,x,y){
 
 //Get window object
 myWindow = ColdFusion.Window.getWindowObject(windowName);
 winEl = myWindow.getEl();
 //move the window
 myWindow.moveTo(x,y);
 }
 
 Anyone got any ideas? Or another way to position a cfwindow where the
 user clicks?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Mike
 
 
 ~~
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 http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-
 Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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 talk/unsubscribe.cfm


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Re: moveTo on cfwindow no longer working in CF9?

2010-10-22 Thread Azadi Saryev

the version of ExtJS/Sencha (js library behind cfwindow) in cf9 is 
different than in cf8, so a method name could have easily been changed 
and is not moveTo() any longer.

try using setPagePosition() method instead of moveTo()

setPagePosition() is the method to move an Ext.Window object in current 
version of ExtJS (and hopefully is in cf9's implementation of Ext.Window 
too)

Azadi

On 23/10/2010 05:07 , Mike wrote:
 I recently upgraded to CF9 and have noticed that the moveTo function no
 longer seems to work to reposition a cfwindow.

 I still have a CF8 server running and the same code works perfectly in
 CF8, but throws the following JS error in CF9:

 Mywindow.moveTo is not a function

 Here's the JS code:

 rePositionWindow = function(windowName,x,y){

 //Get window object
 myWindow = ColdFusion.Window.getWindowObject(windowName);
 winEl = myWindow.getEl();
 //move the window
 myWindow.moveTo(x,y);
 }

 Anyone got any ideas? Or another way to position a cfwindow where the
 user clicks?

 Thanks,

 Mike


 

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Re: CF based Poll?

2010-10-22 Thread Raymond Camden

I normally consider a poll a one question thing. Ie, do you support X.
Soundings is meant to be more a survey. That's my opinion anyway.

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Michael Grant mgr...@modus.bz wrote:

 Hey thanks ever so much!

 NOTE: This result does NOT come up when you search Poll or Polling. Ray, you
 might want to add that as a keyword. :)

 On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 1:20 PM, jonah.blossom jo...@creori.com wrote:

  http://soundings.riaforge.org/


 On 10/12/10 9:14 AM, Michael Grant wrote:

 Any recommendations on a cf based poll? Kind of like poll daddy?

 I checked riaforge and found nothing.




 

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Re: CF based Poll?

2010-10-22 Thread Raymond Camden

Odd - I don't have any emails from you with your feedback. :)
Seriously though - if Soundings was horrible, you could have let me
know. Perhaps there was something I could have added, or perhaps you
could have contributed something to improve the product. As a free,
and open source solution, it can only get better with feedback and
contributions.

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:24 PM, David McGraw david.mcg...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have worked with Soundings before and I found it horrible to work with...
 I would rather develop my own before trying to work with that again.  Just
 my experience with it, I am sure the client and the situation had more to do
 with it than the product.

 Regards,
 David McGraw
 Oyova Software, LLC
 Web Design and Development http://www.oyova.com - Jacksonville,
 FLhttp://www.oyova.com



 On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 1:22 PM, .jonah jonah@creori.com wrote:


  http://soundings.riaforge.org/

 On 10/12/10 7:45 AM, Michael Grant wrote:
  Is there a recommendation for a polling tool (like polldaddy) that's CF
  based and cheap/free?
 
  (Psst. Ray, I know I know. Check Riaforge. I'm looking for
 recommendations
  first. :p )
 
 



 

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