RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
I agree with this 100%. While reading this, I remember the time I was trying to start my own training company with a partnership with the local Colleges and Universities in my area. All were interested but wanted me to have the CF Certified Trainer cert. Well according to MM you can't get a cert for it because you have to be sponsored by an established training facility even if you're opening your own (and even though I was a Team MM member). So long story short I could have had hundreds of new recruits into the CF world, but because MM would not let me take the exam for the Certified Trainer the wheels stopped turning. It seems to me that if MM would more readily support those of us who are looking to teach and evangelize, we would have more newbies in the CF world. -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can .. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193837 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
I don't know that this is 100% correct. At one point, I was slated to be certified in teaching CF at a MM certified training center. Once you arte certified, there should be no problems. Now, if you want to become a Certified MM traning center (which is different than being a certified trainer), there may some other requirements. I don't know that you have to be sponsored by another MM training center to start your own center. Bryan F. Hogan wrote: I agree with this 100%. While reading this, I remember the time I was trying to start my own training company with a partnership with the local Colleges and Universities in my area. All were interested but wanted me to have the CF Certified Trainer cert. Well according to MM you can't get a cert for it because you have to be sponsored by an established training facility even if you're opening your own (and even though I was a Team MM member). So long story short I could have had hundreds of new recruits into the CF world, but because MM would not let me take the exam for the Certified Trainer the wheels stopped turning. It seems to me that if MM would more readily support those of us who are looking to teach and evangelize, we would have more newbies in the CF world. -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can .. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193841 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
To become a Certified Trainer you had to be sponsored by a certified training center. And if I remember correctly in order to become a certified training center you had to have 3 certified trainers on staff. Well for someone trying to start their own center how then do they become a certified trainer? Work for another company before starting your own? It was ridiculous and that is what I was talking about. So in the end MM lost a valuable asset. -Original Message- From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:12 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown I don't know that this is 100% correct. At one point, I was slated to be certified in teaching CF at a MM certified training center. Once you arte certified, there should be no problems. Now, if you want to become a Certified MM training center (which is different than being a certified trainer), there may some other requirements. I don't know that you have to be sponsored by another MM training center to start your own center. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193842 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Agree with you on this, ... At least I would. Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 9 februari 2005 15:53 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown I agree with this 100%. While reading this, I remember the time I was trying to start my own training company with a partnership with the local Colleges and Universities in my area. All were interested but wanted me to have the CF Certified Trainer cert. Well according to MM you can't get a cert for it because you have to be sponsored by an established training facility even if you're opening your own (and even though I was a Team MM member). So long story short I could have had hundreds of new recruits into the CF world, but because MM would not let me take the exam for the Certified Trainer the wheels stopped turning. It seems to me that if MM would more readily support those of us who are looking to teach and evangelize, we would have more newbies in the CF world. -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can .. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193845 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
I see. I do remember that now. It is a pain, but I guess MM's goal is to make sure that they don't have slackers popping up training centers everywhere. I think having 2 would suffice - in your case you could have partnered with one other developer and been all set. Bryan F. Hogan wrote: To become a Certified Trainer you had to be sponsored by a certified training center. And if I remember correctly in order to become a certified training center you had to have 3 certified trainers on staff. Well for someone trying to start their own center how then do they become a certified trainer? Work for another company before starting your own? It was ridiculous and that is what I was talking about. So in the end MM lost a valuable asset. -Original Message- From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:12 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown I don't know that this is 100% correct. At one point, I was slated to be certified in teaching CF at a MM certified training center. Once you arte certified, there should be no problems. Now, if you want to become a Certified MM training center (which is different than being a certified trainer), there may some other requirements. I don't know that you have to be sponsored by another MM training center to start your own center. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193847 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Everyone is throwing around this idea that Coldfusion is just as free as PHP...but the fact is that Coldfusion cost more to the PHP to the shared hosting person. I can get a good solid PHP host for under $10/month ($7.95 @ crystal tech if i recall). Point me to a reliable CF hosting company that offers this... Adam H On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:45 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can understand(im txt messaging), so its habit, plus i'm a really BAD typer! So after this message I'm going to bestbuy to get Beavis Macon teaches typing! and I promise too try better :) (3 medical degrees, you'd think I would do better!) Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. yeah Dave they are BUT this kind of thinking is what kills coldfusion! Sure it's a bad place to learn how to build a full out application. But lets take a graphic artist for example. Most of them do their courses in photoshop and illistrator but then they also take flash courses. So they learn how to make this nifty lil flash sites which contain a contact page, so then they learn enough php to send the email. Last time i checked sending an email from cfm was a bit easier than php. (remember when we had to use matts mail in cgi from matts scripts archive haha) ok so you say big deal! well it is a big deal because from now on they will most likely end up using php when it could be coldfusion! And i know we all get along so well with the graphics ppl but what I see is that these graphics ppl(people) are finding it very difficult to find a good job so they start to learn programming and where do they go? (hint php) why? because they have some familiarality with it and they think its the free answer. Now contrary to what mischa says, not everyone builds enterprise sized apps, not everyone has their own server and certainly not everyone has a background in C. I'd assume that if you asked most php developers what C is that they'd say its the letter thats between B and D. And if you did have a background in C wouldn't you really most likely got to .net anyways? There are a ton of php developers of course but how many are actually doing prodjects that are small? I don't have any concrete numbers but i would say a big majority of ppl that use php use it for very small things (sending emails, basic database manipulation, etc..) so I think those numbers about users really does lie. There are some ppl that do great things with php but a majority are just novice users who use it because its free or because they can just plug in phpbb or an image gallery app or phpnuke, etc But mostly cause they are just uninformed. We can fight about this all we want but really it comes down to this, all these hundreds of thousands of ppl that use php cause its free and are on shared servers just dont know that to them and a majority of their clients that coldfusion is just as free, period!! They just don't know! ANd honestly, if you were a newbie again which would be easier to learn and understand? Course ppl are different but there is a reason why cfm is still around. From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:52 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193848 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
You can try this list: http://www.coldfusion-hosting-plans.com/ - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:53 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Everyone is throwing around this idea that Coldfusion is just as free as PHP...but the fact is that Coldfusion cost more to the PHP to the shared hosting person. I can get a good solid PHP host for under $10/month ($7.95 @ crystal tech if i recall). Point me to a reliable CF hosting company that offers this... Adam H On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:45 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can understand(im txt messaging), so its habit, plus i'm a really BAD typer! So after this message I'm going to bestbuy to get Beavis Macon teaches typing! and I promise too try better :) (3 medical degrees, you'd think I would do better!) Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. yeah Dave they are BUT this kind of thinking is what kills coldfusion! Sure it's a bad place to learn how to build a full out application. But lets take a graphic artist for example. Most of them do their courses in photoshop and illistrator but then they also take flash courses. So they learn how to make this nifty lil flash sites which contain a contact page, so then they learn enough php to send the email. Last time i checked sending an email from cfm was a bit easier than php. (remember when we had to use matts mail in cgi from matts scripts archive haha) ok so you say big deal! well it is a big deal because from now on they will most likely end up using php when it could be coldfusion! And i know we all get along so well with the graphics ppl but what I see is that these graphics ppl(people) are finding it very difficult to find a good job so they start to learn programming and where do they go? (hint php) why? because they have some familiarality with it and they think its the free answer. Now contrary to what mischa says, not everyone builds enterprise sized apps, not everyone has their own server and certainly not everyone has a background in C. I'd assume that if you asked most php developers what C is that they'd say its the letter thats between B and D. And if you did have a background in C wouldn't you really most likely got to .net anyways? There are a ton of php developers of course but how many are actually doing prodjects that are small? I don't have any concrete numbers but i would say a big majority of ppl that use php use it for very small things (sending emails, basic database manipulation, etc..) so I think those numbers about users really does lie. There are some ppl that do great things with php but a majority are just novice users who use it because its free or because they can just plug in phpbb or an image gallery app or phpnuke, etc But mostly cause they are just uninformed. We can fight about this all we want but really it comes down to this, all these hundreds of thousands of ppl that use php cause its free and are on shared servers just dont know that to them and a majority of their clients that coldfusion is just as free, period!! They just don't know! ANd honestly, if you were a newbie again which would be easier to learn and understand? Course ppl are different but there is a reason why cfm is still around. From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:52 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193852 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
You can get your own virtual server (albeit BlueDragon JX) with www.viviotech.net from $18 a month! Having used one for the past 3 months without any probs i highly recommend people check it out. Paul Stewart Site Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.whichfranchise.com - Original Message - From: Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:53 PM Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Everyone is throwing around this idea that Coldfusion is just as free as PHP...but the fact is that Coldfusion cost more to the PHP to the shared hosting person. I can get a good solid PHP host for under $10/month ($7.95 @ crystal tech if i recall). Point me to a reliable CF hosting company that offers this... Adam H On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:45 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can understand(im txt messaging), so its habit, plus i'm a really BAD typer! So after this message I'm going to bestbuy to get Beavis Macon teaches typing! and I promise too try better :) (3 medical degrees, you'd think I would do better!) Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. yeah Dave they are BUT this kind of thinking is what kills coldfusion! Sure it's a bad place to learn how to build a full out application. But lets take a graphic artist for example. Most of them do their courses in photoshop and illistrator but then they also take flash courses. So they learn how to make this nifty lil flash sites which contain a contact page, so then they learn enough php to send the email. Last time i checked sending an email from cfm was a bit easier than php. (remember when we had to use matts mail in cgi from matts scripts archive haha) ok so you say big deal! well it is a big deal because from now on they will most likely end up using php when it could be coldfusion! And i know we all get along so well with the graphics ppl but what I see is that these graphics ppl(people) are finding it very difficult to find a good job so they start to learn programming and where do they go? (hint php) why? because they have some familiarality with it and they think its the free answer. Now contrary to what mischa says, not everyone builds enterprise sized apps, not everyone has their own server and certainly not everyone has a background in C. I'd assume that if you asked most php developers what C is that they'd say its the letter thats between B and D. And if you did have a background in C wouldn't you really most likely got to .net anyways? There are a ton of php developers of course but how many are actually doing prodjects that are small? I don't have any concrete numbers but i would say a big majority of ppl that use php use it for very small things (sending emails, basic database manipulation, etc..) so I think those numbers about users really does lie. There are some ppl that do great things with php but a majority are just novice users who use it because its free or because they can just plug in phpbb or an image gallery app or phpnuke, etc But mostly cause they are just uninformed. We can fight about this all we want but really it comes down to this, all these hundreds of thousands of ppl that use php cause its free and are on shared servers just dont know that to them and a majority of their clients that coldfusion is just as free, period!! They just don't know! ANd honestly, if you were a newbie again which would be easier to learn and understand? Course ppl are different but there is a reason why cfm is still around. From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:52 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193854 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
I have a few sites for nonprofit orgs and one small commercial site hosted at http://www.viux.com under their $5/month starter plan, running CFMX 6.1. I've been very satisfied with them so far. -- Chris Montgomery, VAMP Programmer HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 DSN 312.945.7034 Comm 210.925.7034 -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:53 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Everyone is throwing around this idea that Coldfusion is just as free as PHP...but the fact is that Coldfusion cost more to the PHP to the shared hosting person. I can get a good solid PHP host for under $10/month ($7.95 @ crystal tech if i recall). Point me to a reliable CF hosting company that offers this... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193890 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy From: Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:50 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Everyone is throwing around this idea that Coldfusion is just as free as PHP...but the fact is that Coldfusion cost more to the PHP to the shared hosting person. I can get a good solid PHP host for under $10/month ($7.95 @ crystal tech if i recall). Point me to a reliable CF hosting company that offers this... Adam H On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:45 -0500, dave wrote: ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can understand(im txt messaging), so its habit, plus i'm a really BAD typer! So after this message I'm going to bestbuy to get Beavis Macon teaches typing! and I promise too try better :) (3 medical degrees, you'd think I would do better!) Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. yeah Dave they are BUT this kind of thinking is what kills coldfusion! Sure it's a bad place to learn how to build a full out application. But lets take a graphic artist for example. Most of them do their courses in photoshop and illistrator but then they also take flash courses. So they learn how to make this nifty lil flash sites which contain a contact page, so then they learn enough php to send the email. Last time i checked sending an email from cfm was a bit easier than php. (remember when we had to use matts mail in cgi from matts scripts archive haha) ok so you say big deal! well it is a big deal because from now on they will most likely end up using php when it could be coldfusion! And i know we all get along so well with the graphics ppl but what I see is that these graphics ppl(people) are finding it very difficult to find a good job so they start to learn programming and where do they go? (hint php) why? because they have some familiarality with it and they think its the free answer. Now contrary to what mischa says, not everyone builds enterprise sized apps, not everyone has their own server and certainly not everyone has a background in C. I'd assume that if you asked most php developers what C is that they'd say its the letter thats between B and D. And if you did have a background in C wouldn't you really most likely got to .net anyways? There are a ton of php developers of course but how many are actually doing prodjects that are small? I don't have any concrete numbers but i would say a big majority of ppl that use php use it for very small things (sending emails, basic database manipulation, etc..) so I think those numbers about users really does lie. There are some ppl that do great things with php but a majority are just novice users who use it because its free or because they can just plug in phpbb or an image gallery app or phpnuke, etc But mostly cause they are just uninformed. We can fight about this all we want but really it comes down to this, all these hundreds of thousands of ppl that use php cause its free and are on shared servers just dont know that to them and a majority of their clients that coldfusion is just as free, period!! They just don't know! ANd honestly, if you were a newbie again which would be easier to learn and understand? Course ppl are different but there is a reason why cfm is still around. From: Dave Watts Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193897 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! LOL! Well, I was with Hurricane Electric - LAMP hosting for $10/month - but I exceeded their bandwidth limit and had to move to their $25/month plan. Then it was cheaper to move to SmarterLinux for $15/month (which had plenty of bandwidth for me). -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193946 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
well true smarter linux is $15 a month but they give my clients, free domain name, no setup fees and 3 free months so their total is what i previously mentioned ($133.55) and with that i can run coldfusion and throw on a phpbb if needed. thats worth the extra $3 a month while php is on there i dont have too worry much about having some half assed php app on there (like amfphp) that could compromise the server cause they wont allow it! From: Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:55 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave wrote: lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! LOL! Well, I was with Hurricane Electric - LAMP hosting for $10/month - but I exceeded their bandwidth limit and had to move to their $25/month plan. Then it was cheaper to move to SmarterLinux for $15/month (which had plenty of bandwidth for me). -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193948 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193955 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
while that might be true, its not that noticable and if they already are aware of cfm and the more they get then its no big twang at all. and quite frankly my personal feelings are ppl that are too damn cheap like that aren't worth a lick anyway, cause thats just plain stupidity but i know what ur saying, just like when they choose php and go to the $2 a month host and they think they are the snitz. until it breaks and they cant get ahold of anyone too fix it. I have to deal with ppl like that all the time! I don't get why anyone with half a damn brain can't figure out that when their web host doesnt have a phone # listed on their site that something is seriously wrong with that! Sure it's $2 a month but its probably some kid using an ancient puter that hes running his warez site off of and decided he'd make a lil extra money for his crack habit. quote Don't use cheap tools. Remember, a professional auto mechanic might own tools valued at over $100,000. Should a professional settle for less? What does that say about their attention to quality and professionalism? Professionals use tools like Adobe Photoshop, Macromedia Freehand, Illustrator, and Ultra-Dev. The amateurs use amateur tools like Paintshop Pro and Front Page. There might only be a small difference in quality about the way Photoshop handles anti-aliasing or the way Dreamweaver handles code validation, but compound that difference over a whole Website, and it becomes obvious to most. From: Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:16 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193961 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Adam, Did you check the list I posted earlier? There were several ColdFusion hosts under 10 dollars listed on it. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193967 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
One of the things I have learned about business development in a course I have taken concerns lifetime value of customers. Initially an emerging technology business tries to gain traction with a certain niche which serves as an anchor to a wider segment. Initially focus is key, then as things diversify generalization takes over and share is maximized with low margins. Lastly, a revaluation of customers is done as a business reaches maturity. At this point, it is key to determine where your revenues are derived from. Roughly 80% of revenue is made from 20% of customers (or something like that). The lowest quartile (most price sensitive customers) should be cleared from the reams they actually cost money to carry. At this point it is also key to differentiate you product or service along dimensions other than price. Thus my take, if I was MM I would not be drawn into a price war with PHP and open source and instead highlight the aspects of CF which diversify it from the open source offerings. I would be interested to know the breakdown of hosting by cost. Also would be very interested in the margins associated with these classes of customers. If the ease of use and rapid development et.al doesn't command a premium then by association there is no 'added value'. And having used the produce for a couple years would assert it certainly demands a premium - I find it's function very compelling. You want a 'superior good' it will cost more. I could go on but this is probably getting way off topic. John From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 2/9/2005 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Adam, Did you check the list I posted earlier? There were several ColdFusion hosts under 10 dollars listed on it. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193979 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
I wasn't implying getting into a price war with php, I was simply implying to eductate those php users that don't realize that chances are pretty good that using coldfusion is a viable option to php with really no cost to them. A majority of them really think that they will have to fork out a few grand just too use it, which simply isn't true at all. From: John Munyan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:42 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown One of the things I have learned about business development in a course I have taken concerns lifetime value of customers. Initially an emerging technology business tries to gain traction with a certain niche which serves as an anchor to a wider segment. Initially focus is key, then as things diversify generalization takes over and share is maximized with low margins. Lastly, a revaluation of customers is done as a business reaches maturity. At this point, it is key to determine where your revenues are derived from. Roughly 80% of revenue is made from 20% of customers (or something like that). The lowest quartile (most price sensitive customers) should be cleared from the reams they actually cost money to carry. At this point it is also key to differentiate you product or service along dimensions other than price. Thus my take, if I was MM I would not be drawn into a price war with PHP and open source and instead highlight the aspects of CF which diversify it from the open source offerings. I would be interested to know the breakdown of hosting by cost. Also would be very interested in the margins associated with these classes of customers. If the ease of use and rapid development et.al doesn't command a premium then by association there is no 'added value'. And having used the produce for a couple years would assert it certainly demands a premium - I find it's function very compelling. You want a 'superior good' it will cost more. I could go on but this is probably getting way off topic. John From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 2/9/2005 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Adam, Did you check the list I posted earlier? There were several ColdFusion hosts under 10 dollars listed on it. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193986 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Ah i see it in a new light now $3 more per month is nothing compared to a couple thousand upfront just to start...That would make a difference..I think somewhere along the lines I lost the original intent. I was just trying to argue, read work avoidance. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:00:02 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't implying getting into a price war with php, I was simply implying to eductate those php users that don't realize that chances are pretty good that using coldfusion is a viable option to php with really no cost to them. A majority of them really think that they will have to fork out a few grand just too use it, which simply isn't true at all. From: John Munyan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:42 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown One of the things I have learned about business development in a course I have taken concerns lifetime value of customers. Initially an emerging technology business tries to gain traction with a certain niche which serves as an anchor to a wider segment. Initially focus is key, then as things diversify generalization takes over and share is maximized with low margins. Lastly, a revaluation of customers is done as a business reaches maturity. At this point, it is key to determine where your revenues are derived from. Roughly 80% of revenue is made from 20% of customers (or something like that). The lowest quartile (most price sensitive customers) should be cleared from the reams they actually cost money to carry. At this point it is also key to differentiate you product or service along dimensions other than price. Thus my take, if I was MM I would not be drawn into a price war with PHP and open source and instead highlight the aspects of CF which diversify it from the open source offerings. I would be interested to know the breakdown of hosting by cost. Also would be very interested in the margins associated with these classes of customers. If the ease of use and rapid development et.al doesn't command a premium then by association there is no 'added value'. And having used the produce for a couple years would assert it certainly demands a premium - I find it's function very compelling. You want a 'superior good' it will cost more. I could go on but this is probably getting way off topic. John From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 2/9/2005 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Adam, Did you check the list I posted earlier? There were several ColdFusion hosts under 10 dollars listed on it. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193996 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
No I had not ever seen this before thanks :) but some observations about the $10 hosts XtremeHost - not even MX. hosting-coldfusion -their whole website is completley done in ASP, thats just funny. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:42:40 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam, Did you check the list I posted earlier? There were several ColdFusion hosts under 10 dollars listed on it. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193999 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
hehe no prob, its hard on this black white medium to accurately convey the meaning thats intended actually starting arguments can lead to a lot of otherwise unknown knowledge to be brought out ;) From: Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:51 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Ah i see it in a new light now $3 more per month is nothing compared to a couple thousand upfront just to start...That would make a difference..I think somewhere along the lines I lost the original intent. I was just trying to argue, read work avoidance. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:00:02 -0500, dave wrote: I wasn't implying getting into a price war with php, I was simply implying to eductate those php users that don't realize that chances are pretty good that using coldfusion is a viable option to php with really no cost to them. A majority of them really think that they will have to fork out a few grand just too use it, which simply isn't true at all. From: John Munyan Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown One of the things I have learned about business development in a course I have taken concerns lifetime value of customers. Initially an emerging technology business tries to gain traction with a certain niche which serves as an anchor to a wider segment. Initially focus is key, then as things diversify generalization takes over and share is maximized with low margins. Lastly, a revaluation of customers is done as a business reaches maturity. At this point, it is key to determine where your revenues are derived from. Roughly 80% of revenue is made from 20% of customers (or something like that). The lowest quartile (most price sensitive customers) should be cleared from the reams they actually cost money to carry. At this point it is also key to differentiate you product or service along dimensions other than price. Thus my take, if I was MM I would not be drawn into a price war with PHP and open source and instead highlight the aspects of CF which diversify it from the open source offerings. I would be interested to know the breakdown of hosting by cost. Also would be very interested in the margins associated with these classes of customers. If the ease of use and rapid development et.al doesn't command a premium then by association there is no 'added value'. And having used the produce for a couple years would assert it certainly demands a premium - I find it's function very compelling. You want a 'superior good' it will cost more. I could go on but this is probably getting way off topic. John From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 2/9/2005 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Adam, Did you check the list I posted earlier? There were several ColdFusion hosts under 10 dollars listed on it. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Yes 3 dollars big deal I agree but some would not. Alternatively what if I said CF has 30% premium to host..sounds a bit different. You can dimish the value of anything, the opposite applies too. My point is the price of hosting is more expensive for Coldfusion and that does make a difference to people, maybe not you or me, but we know the extra benifits CF has and $3 is nothing...to the Graphic artist or new to the web type of guy that goes to findawebhost.com (or some host comparison place) and sees a PHP host for 3 bucks or a CF host for $7 or $10 then where do you think he is going to go? My main point is that you can't say that it costs the same for a CF site as it does for a PHP site in a shared hosting enviroment. Adam H On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:38:08 -0500, dave wrote: oh geez! thats getting a little bit nit picky dont you think? lets see my clients host at hostmysite.com its $133.55 a yr that = $11.13 a month with free domain name (smarter power plan) and you cant argue that they are not a good host! I can already see the php crowd drooling over this BUT ITS $3 CHEAPER A MONTH TO HOST IT!! OMG!!! i can switch to php and retire at the end of the year!! hurrayyy ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:194006 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
You might ask yourself the question, what am I going to respond to a customer saying Why would I pay for ColdFusion if I can get A, B, or C for free?. Only in specific cases you can throw it on ColdFusion specific functionality, but even then boxing up against free publicity marketed languages is very hard for an Account Manager. Just to clear things up :) I know this issue pops up regularly, but it isn't something you have to put away beneath the soil. I think it needs attention, but that attention is expensive, and requires strong product strategy. :) I tend to think of Coldfusion as a productivity API for Java. You can do things in coldfusion you can't do with java alone (take a cfc and add a function to it at runtime) and some things that are just faster in cfml (you can get a hold of XML way easier, and a slew of other things - let alone the new stuff in 7) Companies don't seem to mind buying add-on COM objects, php modules, java charting APIs - my point is that CFML is a language unto it's self to be sure, but it can also be looked at as an augmentation to java, and when looked at it that way it might be an easier sell. Meaning you can do most everything in JSP and java (or someother free language), but it takes a larger amout of time and effort to make a web service or parse and XML file compared to the 2 or 3 lines of code in cfml. If you say, hey it'll take me 2 days to do it in language A or 2 seconds to do in CFMX then figure in your salary... I know it's been said before, but it's true. There's my wooden nickel. -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:194014 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
My two cents I just think dave is wrong as usual! And he needs help spelling! :) ...cf will ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:194015 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
lmfao!! :) i'd listen too ya Will if you had 2 cents ;) i may speel rael bda ans i kood be rong but who's lusting over my i cand girls? hahaha speaking of which i gotta head do to the fashion show and watch my cand shake her thang!! From: Will Tomlinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:39 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown My two cents I just think dave is wrong as usual! And he needs help spelling! :) cf will ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:194019 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
i dont see how u can type more code (php) in same amount of time? the thing i find with most php users is that they are really misinformed (or i could be) for example (this happenes so often that its almost comical) this weeks project im building a fashion site that will be flash w/remoting and too speed it up we decided to maybe hire a graphic desiner to help out. but of course he wants to build it dynamically meaning pulling swf's in and so i laugh :) anyways he says, well maybe with php i can do this and u dont need him (me) which wasnt a good move but anyway, so i say well it will be dynamic with coldfusion flash remoting and he comes back with how can she afford all thats, its so expensive? umm, thats be lets see a shared host with cfm, remoting $11.13 month, so after explaining it all to him (and since most php dev'rs seem to think they gotta pay for cfm to dev on) and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. maybe MM should work on that area:) and just to be clear, i'd say a most php users arent building enterprise apps and use shared hosting, so its just as feasable to use coldfusion, they just dont know its just as free in that case. and its amazing to see them all trying to hack amfphp and such to work with remoting when they could just use cfm more easily and too be clear, they are using shared hosting, so cost isnt a concern. some of u forget that not everyone is building enterprise apps, personally, i'll take the small ones, in out in a few days and make more cash without getting burned out From: Micha Schopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:42 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown He made a well argumented comment, don't shoot him immediately for it. Management here said exactly the same as he did :) What he meant is that competition in that part of the market is so high, it is virtually impossible to compete. Besides the .NET shares, the PHP share in the lower end market is really high. PHP started as a simple language, but evolved into a stable and robust language with the same capabilities as it's competitors. And once you have worked with PHP the unique selling point of ColdFusion development speed doesn't matter, because you can develop as fast in PHP as in ColdFusion :) What will matter, is the level of functionality you can give developers to compete with. Featuresets of competitors are pretty huge these days, and ColdFusion has some things others don't have, but the same thing counts for those competitors. You might ask yourself the question, what am I going to respond to a customer saying Why would I pay for ColdFusion if I can get A, B, or C for free?. Only in specific cases you can throw it on ColdFusion specific functionality, but even then boxing up against free publicity marketed languages is very hard for an Account Manager. Just to clear things up :) I know this issue pops up regularly, but it isn't something you have to put away beneath the soil. I think it needs attention, but that attention is expensive, and requires strong product strategy. :) Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Rick Root [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: maandag 7 februari 2005 18:17 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Matt Wisdom wrote: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editio ns/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I think you should read EVERYTHING on that page, particular the paragraph about Standard before making a ridiculous statement like that: ColdFusion MX 7 Standard is the solution for delivering a powerful website or application on a single server. It features all the RAD development capabilities of ColdFusion, powerful new features such as PDF and FlashPaper document generation, rich flash forms, structured business reporting, and more-all in an easy-to-manage configuration that is ideal for small to medium-sized businesses. - Rick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:21 AM, dave wrote: and just to be clear, i'd say a most php users arent building enterprise apps and use shared hosting, so its just as feasable to use coldfusion, they just dont know its just as free in that case. and its amazing to see them all trying to hack amfphp and such to work with remoting when they could just use cfm more easily and too be clear, they are using shared hosting, so cost isnt a concern. Whoa! 1) Most of them use shared hosting! 2) If they are using shared hosting, the free advantage of LAMP goes away (except to the provider)! 3) And there is prolly little, or no, extra cost to to host a site using CF! 4) The Customer gets all the RADD and maintenance benefits and $ savings of CF. 5) The developer doesn't realize that CF developer editions are free. Point made, End of discussion! I knew all these points except 5, but never put them together! I have recently participated in a Programming Languages discussion on the Apple OS X web forums. Everyone else was pushing PHP, Java or JSP. I proposed CFML as an alternative. Several people agreed with me, but the majority tried to shout us down. The reasons usually included: functional capability, performance and cost. I would counter that the cost of CF is negligible compared to the other costs, and leave it at that. But to the indie developer cost is everything-- and if he thinks he has to pony up $1,000 to $5,000 just to develop in CFML, the answer is CF is too expensive, end of discussion. I need to listen better. Thanks, Dave-- I think that I am going to win a few more PLPCs (Programming Language Pissing Contests). And to the CF community in general: we need to get the message out that: It cost the same (prolly a lot less) to develop in CF. Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193555 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
I am reposting this to change the subject line. On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:21 AM, dave wrote: and just to be clear, i'd say a most php users arent building enterprise apps and use shared hosting, so its just as feasable to use coldfusion, they just dont know its just as free in that case. and its amazing to see them all trying to hack amfphp and such to work with remoting when they could just use cfm more easily and too be clear, they are using shared hosting, so cost isnt a concern. Whoa! 1) Most of them use shared hosting! 2) If they are using shared hosting, the free advantage of LAMP goes away (except to the provider)! 3) And there is prolly little, or no, extra cost to to host a site using CF! 4) The Customer gets all the RADD and maintenance benefits and $ savings of CF. 5) The developer doesn't realize that CF developer editions are free. Point made, End of discussion! I knew all these points except 5, but never put them together! I have recently participated in a Programming Languages discussion on the Apple OS X web forums. Everyone else was pushing PHP, Java or JSP. I proposed CFML as an alternative. Several people agreed with me, but the majority tried to shout us down. The reasons usually included: functional capability, performance and cost. I would counter that the cost of CF is negligible compared to the other costs, and leave it at that. But to the indie developer cost is everything-- and if he thinks he has to pony up $1,000 to $5,000 just to develop in CFML, the answer is CF is too expensive, end of discussion. I need to listen better. Thanks, Dave-- I think that I am going to win a few more PLPCs (Programming Language Pissing Contests). And to the CF community in general: we need to get the message out that: It cost the same (prolly a lot less) to develop in CF. Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193556 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
no prob dick :) man im always in those discussions haha, so i stand up 4 what i believe in, nothing wrong with that. this same discussion is why dave watts got so mad at me (on the figleaf flash list), sorry bout that dave! but they were trying to get all the newbies onto php and using amfphp which was dead at the time and they are trying to get all these hacks to work and im like damn just use coldfusion and not worry bout it and they go off bout how MM really is gunna get u too use it then slap u with this huge bill! not to mention i asked my host if they have amfphp on their servers and i got a resounding there is no chance in hell that crap is going on our servers if MM were to at the top of the coldfusion pages put a big FREE sign, they would go lol, i guess they are too busy writing all that extra php code too actually read down to were it actually says that the dev version is free and i guess they cant figure out that the host carries the cost not them. i understand a lot of you, if not a majority work at shops that run their own servers but i dont and some of u think im stupid i know but hey at least i checked it out enough to make an educated guess or i'd be another php hacker. This is were i personally think MM drops the ball(not getting these ppl the message) but i also understand the chance at revenue is smaller. However, those ppl carry weight and things happen and word gets around and suddenly there is revenue, a lot of small voices can create quite a racket! bottom line is that these ppl just dont know! even .net will is pushing cfm over .net in his school and thats were it should be as well. One class puts what 20-30 ppl into the world, even if they are in graphics they learn something, usually php. A lot of these graphics ppl then work with flash and if they only knew how to make a simple cfc, think what they could suddenly do the balls rolling, getting bigger.. isnt that basically how php got so popular? just like that graphics guy i referenced in last post, i bet i could sit him down and show him a cfc and the remoting connections, he learned flash and as. in school so know he can remote. MM hire me and i will crusade!! haha some of them even say the hosting cost is outrages i got a great host (host my site) and i think most all my clients end up paying around $11 a month for cfmx on LINUX of course ;) , i would say that isnt to bad at all! the other thing is that most of those ppl dont realize the benefits of the underlying java code of cfml now, funny thing is they still spew that cfm is nuthing more than a tag runner, i dont know what the hell they think php is? ~ we need to get the message out that: It cost the same (prolly a lot less) to develop in CF.~ EXACTLY!! plus as mossimo used to say coldfusion just sounds sexier :) From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:30 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown I am reposting this to change the subject line. On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:21 AM, dave wrote: and just to be clear, i'd say a most php users arent building enterprise apps and use shared hosting, so its just as feasable to use coldfusion, they just dont know its just as free in that case. and its amazing to see them all trying to hack amfphp and such to work with remoting when they could just use cfm more easily and too be clear, they are using shared hosting, so cost isnt a concern. Whoa! 1) Most of them use shared hosting! 2) If they are using shared hosting, the free advantage of LAMP goes away (except to the provider)! 3) And there is prolly little, or no, extra cost to to host a site using CF! 4) The Customer gets all the RADD and maintenance benefits and $ savings of CF. 5) The developer doesn't realize that CF developer editions are free. Point made, End of discussion! I knew all these points except 5, but never put them together! I have recently participated in a Programming Languages discussion on the Apple OS X web forums. Everyone else was pushing PHP, Java or JSP. I proposed CFML as an alternative. Several people agreed with me, but the majority tried to shout us down. The reasons usually included: functional capability, performance and cost. I would counter that the cost of CF is negligible compared to the other costs, and leave it at that. But to the indie developer cost is everything-- and if he thinks he has to pony up $1,000 to $5,000 just to develop in CFML, the answer is CF is too expensive, end of discussion. I need to listen better. Thanks, Dave-- I think that I am going to win a few more PLPCs (Programming Language Pissing Contests). And to the CF community in general: we need to get the message out that: It cost the same (prolly a lot less) to develop in CF. Dick
RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
You're messages are really difficult to read :P The reason why PHP became so popular is a combination of reasons, like freeware, C like syntax, MySQL combination, high performance, and the ease of use. Btw, have you ever developed large applications in PHP. There really is no big difference in development time. The most time spend in applications isn't at code level. Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: dinsdag 8 februari 2005 11:58 To: CF-Talk Subject: re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown no prob dick :) man im always in those discussions haha, so i stand up 4 what i believe in, nothing wrong with that. this same discussion is why dave watts got so mad at me (on the figleaf flash list), sorry bout that dave! but they were trying to get all the newbies onto php and using amfphp which was dead at the time and they are trying to get all these hacks to work and im like damn just use coldfusion and not worry bout it and they go off bout how MM really is gunna get u too use it then slap u with this huge bill! not to mention i asked my host if they have amfphp on their servers and i got a resounding there is no chance in hell that crap is going on our servers if MM were to at the top of the coldfusion pages put a big FREE sign, they would go lol, i guess they are too busy writing all that extra php code too actually read down to were it actually says that the dev version is free and i guess they cant figure out that the host carries the cost not them. i understand a lot of you, if not a majority work at shops that run their own servers but i dont and some of u think im stupid i know but hey at least i checked it out enough to make an educated guess or i'd be another php hacker. This is were i personally think MM drops the ball(not getting these ppl the message) but i also understand the chance at revenue is smaller. However, those ppl carry weight and things happen and word gets around and suddenly there is revenue, a lot of small voices can create quite a racket! bottom line is that these ppl just dont know! even .net will is pushing cfm over .net in his school and thats were it should be as well. One class puts what 20-30 ppl into the world, even if they are in graphics they learn something, usually php. A lot of these graphics ppl then work with flash and if they only knew how to make a simple cfc, think what they could suddenly do the balls rolling, getting bigger.. isnt that basically how php got so popular? just like that graphics guy i referenced in last post, i bet i could sit him down and show him a cfc and the remoting connections, he learned flash and as. in school so know he can remote. MM hire me and i will crusade!! haha some of them even say the hosting cost is outrages i got a great host (host my site) and i think most all my clients end up paying around $11 a month for cfmx on LINUX of course ;) , i would say that isnt to bad at all! the other thing is that most of those ppl dont realize the benefits of the underlying java code of cfml now, funny thing is they still spew that cfm is nuthing more than a tag runner, i dont know what the hell they think php is? ~ we need to get the message out that: It cost the same (prolly a lot less) to develop in CF.~ EXACTLY!! plus as mossimo used to say coldfusion just sounds sexier :) From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:30 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown I am reposting this to change the subject line. On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:21 AM, dave wrote: and just to be clear, i'd say a most php users arent building enterprise apps and use shared hosting, so its just as feasable to use coldfusion, they just dont know its just as free in that case. and its amazing to see them all trying to hack amfphp and such to work with remoting when they could just use cfm more easily and too be clear, they are using shared hosting, so cost isnt a concern. Whoa! 1) Most of them use shared hosting! 2) If they are using shared hosting, the free advantage of LAMP goes away (except
Re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
even .net will is pushing cfm over .net in his school and thats were it should be as well. One class puts what 20-30 ppl into the world, even if they are in graphics they learn something, usually php. Exactly! And I'll be giving another lecture on shopping carts and how they work. What will I use for my examples? CF! Every damn time cause there ain't nuthin easier to illustrate how a website works, simply and efficiently! Could you imagine running these students through php, or .net code for your examples? LOL Their brains would fry! ...net Will --- cfmx7 will ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193559 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Yea, my eyes have problems with the lack of capitalization, and I feel like I'm reading the lyrics from an 80's Prince album... Sorry for the interjection :P - Calvin -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:16 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown You're messages are really difficult to read :P The reason why PHP became so popular is a combination of reasons, like freeware, C like syntax, MySQL combination, high performance, and the ease of use. Btw, have you ever developed large applications in PHP. There really is no big difference in development time. The most time spend in applications isn't at code level. Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: dinsdag 8 februari 2005 11:58 To: CF-Talk Subject: re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown no prob dick :) man im always in those discussions haha, so i stand up 4 what i believe in, nothing wrong with that. this same discussion is why dave watts got so mad at me (on the figleaf flash list), sorry bout that dave! but they were trying to get all the newbies onto php and using amfphp which was dead at the time and they are trying to get all these hacks to work and im like damn just use coldfusion and not worry bout it and they go off bout how MM really is gunna get u too use it then slap u with this huge bill! not to mention i asked my host if they have amfphp on their servers and i got a resounding there is no chance in hell that crap is going on our servers if MM were to at the top of the coldfusion pages put a big FREE sign, they would go lol, i guess they are too busy writing all that extra php code too actually read down to were it actually says that the dev version is free and i guess they cant figure out that the host carries the cost not them. i understand a lot of you, if not a majority work at shops that run their own servers but i dont and some of u think im stupid i know but hey at least i checked it out enough to make an educated guess or i'd be another php hacker. This is were i personally think MM drops the ball(not getting these ppl the message) but i also understand the chance at revenue is smaller. However, those ppl carry weight and things happen and word gets around and suddenly there is revenue, a lot of small voices can create quite a racket! bottom line is that these ppl just dont know! even .net will is pushing cfm over .net in his school and thats were it should be as well. One class puts what 20-30 ppl into the world, even if they are in graphics they learn something, usually php. A lot of these graphics ppl then work with flash and if they only knew how to make a simple cfc, think what they could suddenly do the balls rolling, getting bigger.. isnt that basically how php got so popular? just like that graphics guy i referenced in last post, i bet i could sit him down and show him a cfc and the remoting connections, he learned flash and as. in school so know he can remote. MM hire me and i will crusade!! haha some of them even say the hosting cost is outrages i got a great host (host my site) and i think most all my clients end up paying around $11 a month for cfmx on LINUX of course ;) , i would say that isnt to bad at all! the other thing is that most of those ppl dont realize the benefits of the underlying java code of cfml now, funny thing is they still spew that cfm is nuthing more than a tag runner, i dont know what the hell they think php is? ~ we need to get the message out that: It cost the same (prolly a lot less) to develop in CF.~ EXACTLY!! plus as mossimo used to say coldfusion just sounds sexier :) From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:30 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown I am reposting this to change the subject line. On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:21 AM, dave wrote: and just to be clear, i'd say a most php users arent building enterprise apps and use shared hosting, so its just as feasable to use coldfusion, they just dont know its just as free
Re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
It was tough for me to read as well, but you get used to it after a while...maybe a few years :) ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193562 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
On Feb 8, 2005, at 2:25 AM, Will Tomlinson wrote: Exactly! And I'll be giving another lecture on shopping carts and how they work. What will I use for my examples? CF! Every damn time cause there ain't nuthin easier to illustrate how a website works, simply and efficiently! Could you imagine running these students through php, or .net code for your examples? LOL Their brains would fry! Oh... You mean there is an advantage to doing a preso or writing a program where others can read and understand the code without a lot of comments or explanation? Seriously, CF for presos is another great argument! Over the years (lotsa' years) I have written many papers/proposals/articles/documentation where I need to supply an example code snippet. Never thought much about it, but it is a lot easier to illustrate and discuss the code when it is written in CF! (Now, APL... There was a real-man's programming language. You could write an entire application in one long (very long) line of code. (At least that was the implied Challenge). Only problem is that it used RPN, so you had to think backwards or inside-out. And, by the time you got to the end of the line you forgot what you were doing :) Another CF strong point is this: It is very easy to slap together a prototype or a demo with CF.. Including creating/populating a database from a text file, an excel ss, or the customer's MS-Access db. I've done this many times-- takes a few hours or days, but you show the customer his app using his data -- it is meaningful to him, When you win the contract, you can often go back and flesh-out the prototype to implement the production solution. Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193571 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Could you imagine running these students through php, or .net code for
your examples?
Yes, ... with ease. I teach a varity of web languages. It really doesn't
make a big difference which language I choose, people get the basics of
all languages in almost the same amount of time.
I find a b better to read than a GT b. As well as if(){}else
if(){}else{} than cfifcfelseifcfelse/cfif.
It is just a matter of personal experience, and feeling with the syntax
of the language. It is not so strange a lot of CF folks like CFSCRIPT.
It is because the syntax is more C like.
Micha Schopman
Software Engineer
Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380
-
Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren
de interactie met uw doelgroep.
Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer
informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl
-
-Original Message-
From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: dinsdag 8 februari 2005 13:31
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7
feature breakdown
On Feb 8, 2005, at 2:25 AM, Will Tomlinson wrote:
Exactly! And I'll be giving another lecture on shopping carts and how
they work. What will I use for my examples? CF! Every damn time cause
there ain't nuthin easier to illustrate how a website works, simply
and efficiently!
Could you imagine running these students through php, or .net code for
your examples?
LOL Their brains would fry!
Oh... You mean there is an advantage to doing a preso or writing a
program where others can read and understand the code without a lot of
comments or explanation?
Seriously, CF for presos is another great argument!
Over the years (lotsa' years) I have written many
papers/proposals/articles/documentation where I need to supply an
example code snippet. Never thought much about it, but it is a lot
easier to illustrate and discuss the code when it is written in CF!
(Now, APL... There was a real-man's programming language. You could
write an entire application in one long (very long) line of code. (At
least that was the implied Challenge). Only problem is that it used
RPN, so you had to think backwards or inside-out. And, by the time you
got to the end of the line you forgot what you were doing :)
Another CF strong point is this: It is very easy to slap together a
prototype or a demo with CF.. Including creating/populating a database
from a text file, an excel ss, or the customer's MS-Access db. I've
done this many times-- takes a few hours or days, but you show the
customer his app using his data -- it is meaningful to him, When you
win the contract, you can often go back and flesh-out the prototype to
implement the production solution.
Dick
~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67
Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193573
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
... I think that I am going to win a few more PLPCs (Programming Language Pissing Contests). The only way to win is not to play. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193654 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
... and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193655 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
ok first of all, i know you all have a hard time with how I write and I appologize for that. Most of the day I spend talking to my nephews and neices who range from 2/ 1/2yrs to 12 yrs and thats how they can understand(im txt messaging), so its habit, plus i'm a really BAD typer! So after this message I'm going to bestbuy to get Beavis Macon teaches typing! and I promise too try better :) (3 medical degrees, you'd think I would do better!) Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. yeah Dave they are BUT this kind of thinking is what kills coldfusion! Sure it's a bad place to learn how to build a full out application. But lets take a graphic artist for example. Most of them do their courses in photoshop and illistrator but then they also take flash courses. So they learn how to make this nifty lil flash sites which contain a contact page, so then they learn enough php to send the email. Last time i checked sending an email from cfm was a bit easier than php. (remember when we had to use matts mail in cgi from matts scripts archive haha) ok so you say big deal! well it is a big deal because from now on they will most likely end up using php when it could be coldfusion! And i know we all get along so well with the graphics ppl but what I see is that these graphics ppl(people) are finding it very difficult to find a good job so they start to learn programming and where do they go? (hint php) why? because they have some familiarality with it and they think its the free answer. Now contrary to what mischa says, not everyone builds enterprise sized apps, not everyone has their own server and certainly not everyone has a background in C. I'd assume that if you asked most php developers what C is that they'd say its the letter thats between B and D. And if you did have a background in C wouldn't you really most likely got to .net anyways? There are a ton of php developers of course but how many are actually doing prodjects that are small? I don't have any concrete numbers but i would say a big majority of ppl that use php use it for very small things (sending emails, basic database manipulation, etc..) so I think those numbers about users really does lie. There are some ppl that do great things with php but a majority are just novice users who use it because its free or because they can just plug in phpbb or an image gallery app or phpnuke, etc But mostly cause they are just uninformed. We can fight about this all we want but really it comes down to this, all these hundreds of thousands of ppl that use php cause its free and are on shared servers just dont know that to them and a majority of their clients that coldfusion is just as free, period!! They just don't know! ANd honestly, if you were a newbie again which would be easier to learn and understand? Course ppl are different but there is a reason why cfm is still around. From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:52 AM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... and he says well in art school they tell u that coldfusion is really expensive. Art school sounds like a bad place to learn about programming. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193756 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Amen. Been there, done that, never again. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 1:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... I think that I am going to win a few more PLPCs (Programming Language Pissing Contests). The only way to win is not to play. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193773 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:56 PM, James Holmes wrote: Amen. Been there, done that, never again. -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 1:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: CF Development cost vs PHP, JSP. etc. was; Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown ... I think that I am going to win a few more PLPCs (Programming Language Pissing Contests). The only way to win is not to play. Or the game of love: The only game where if you don't play... you lose! - Claire Odoms to Ally McBeal ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193775 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. If I'm not mistaken, I have CFML support in MX already. No need to upgrade the standard version (unless you have a killer need for some of the features not listed there). http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editions/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I'd love to know the sales figures behind this decision, but my guess is that the lower-end customer base has been dramatically eroded by PHP and the free .net bundled with Windows Server. I assume that the main CF customers remaining are the corporate customers that have too much invested to switch or that can realize enough savings on developer salaries to pay the higher dollars for enterprise. From this, I would expect a dramatic drop in the sales of upgrades from Standard edition customers, and ultimately, a continued decline in the developer base for CF as those customers move away from CF. Perhaps MM's plan is to migrate enterprise features downwards in future versions to alleviate this problem. We'll see, but going higher end when your customer base and market share are eroding typically accelerates the decline into obscurity. Matt ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193397 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
What in the enterpirse edition is it that you see needed in the standard edition? Adam H On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:46:09 -0600, Matt Wisdom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. If I'm not mistaken, I have CFML support in MX already. No need to upgrade the standard version (unless you have a killer need for some of the features not listed there). http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editions/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I'd love to know the sales figures behind this decision, but my guess is that the lower-end customer base has been dramatically eroded by PHP and the free .net bundled with Windows Server. I assume that the main CF customers remaining are the corporate customers that have too much invested to switch or that can realize enough savings on developer salaries to pay the higher dollars for enterprise. From this, I would expect a dramatic drop in the sales of upgrades from Standard edition customers, and ultimately, a continued decline in the developer base for CF as those customers move away from CF. Perhaps MM's plan is to migrate enterprise features downwards in future versions to alleviate this problem. We'll see, but going higher end when your customer base and market share are eroding typically accelerates the decline into obscurity. Matt ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193403 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Matt Wisdom wrote: Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. Have you read any of the previous messages on this subject? Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193405 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
What might be nice, and I have not had a chance to go look for it, would be a comparison of 6.1 standard vs. 7.0 standard and 6.1 enterprise vs. 7.0 enterprise as well as the 7.0 standard vs. 7.0 enterprise that we have been discussing. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Matt Wisdom wrote: Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. Have you read any of the previous messages on this subject? Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193408 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Tim Buntel hwrote an excellent intro to the new functionality at: http://sys-con.com/story/?storyid=48103DE=1 ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Jochem van Dieten wrote: Matt Wisdom wrote: Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. Have you read any of the previous messages on this subject? Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193409 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
It seems like there's more new stuff in the standard edition than is reflected in that chart (like report generation that uses pre-made report builder files, etc.), as the other discussions show. That chart could be expanded a bit. - David On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:46:09 -0600, Matt Wisdom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. If I'm not mistaken, I have CFML support in MX already. No need to upgrade the standard version (unless you have a killer need for some of the features not listed there). http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editions/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I'd love to know the sales figures behind this decision, but my guess is that the lower-end customer base has been dramatically eroded by PHP and the free .net bundled with Windows Server. I assume that the main CF customers remaining are the corporate customers that have too much invested to switch or that can realize enough savings on developer salaries to pay the higher dollars for enterprise. From this, I would expect a dramatic drop in the sales of upgrades from Standard edition customers, and ultimately, a continued decline in the developer base for CF as those customers move away from CF. Perhaps MM's plan is to migrate enterprise features downwards in future versions to alleviate this problem. We'll see, but going higher end when your customer base and market share are eroding typically accelerates the decline into obscurity. Matt ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193410 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Matt Wisdom wrote: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editions/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I think you should read EVERYTHING on that page, particular the paragraph about Standard before making a ridiculous statement like that: ColdFusion MX 7 Standard is the solution for delivering a powerful website or application on a single server. It features all the RAD development capabilities of ColdFusion, powerful new features such as PDF and FlashPaper document generation, rich flash forms, structured business reporting, and moreall in an easy-to-manage configuration that is ideal for small to medium-sized businesses. - Rick ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193415 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:46:09 -0600, Matt Wisdom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. If I'm not mistaken, I have CFML support in MX already. No need to upgrade the standard version (unless you have a killer need for some of the features not listed there). http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo /product_editions/ That particular feature comparison is a bit misleading because it doesn't include all of the features added in CF7, which is odd when the same chart lists CFML Language Support which no version of CF will ever not include. However the chart doesn't make any mention of Flash Forms or XFORMS support with the new cfform tags, which I suspect wll be big motivators for some of the smaller shops when they see things like the tabsets (which I won't use anyway because they're Flash and I have comparable reuseable, cross-browser compliant and DOM standard javascript widgets built with XML). In addition the comparison describes High-Performance Reporting and Document Generation which is also somewhat misleading as when looking at the page you might think that all the new reporting tools are only available with Enterprise and that High-Performance is just an adjective to describe the feature. The truth is the reverse -- high-performance is the feature offered with Enterprise -- the Standard version does include the reporting features as well but is minus some performance as I understand it. I'm guessing the thought process involved in that decision is that smaller shops won't need top-shelf performance, they'll mostly just want the ability to create the documents without worrying to much about the speed. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193432 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Hi - CFMX 7 Standard Edition is packed with new features, including: 1. Printable web content - Dynamically transform existing html content into PDF or FlashPaper 2 format to produce print-quality output, including headers and footers, multiple page sizes, orientations, the ability to save output to disk or email, and more. 2. Structured business reports - Integrated business reporting provides high-quality, structured reports, otherwise possible only using expensive third-party reporting products. Users will have unprecedented access to important business data in a format that is easily understood. 3. Flash XML forms - Create and maintain rich, complex multi-step forms easily, providing users with easy-to-use, easy-to-understand forms. Separate logic from presentation with the new CFFORM XML feature, allowing look-and-feel as well as complex form functionality to be easily shared, reused, and revised across sites. 4. Flash form controls - Use rich Flash form controls not available in regular html such as data grids, tree controls, and calendars. 5. New CFCHART engine - Produce high-quality charts and graphs with over 200 different modifiable attributes to control animation, colors, labels, and more. 6. Ready-to-use chart styles - Use pre-defined chart styles for professional looking charts and graphs or create new styles for use across multiple charts and graphs. 7. Improved text searching capabilities - The latest version of the Verity full-text search engine is included in ColdFusion MX 7. Among many new, powerful features are hierarchical category searching, spelling correction suggestions, highlighted search results, and better search result data. 8. Dreamweaver extensions - Extend Dreamweaver MX 2004 with powerful features for ColdFusion development including integrated datasource management, cfform design support, ColdFusion Component recordsets, a powerful login creation wizard, and more. 9. Improved form validation - Perform more powerful data validation and allow validation to be performed at the form field level, on submission by the browser, on the server, or any combination of the three. 10. Parameter validation - The same powerful validation used in forms can be used for all ColdFusion variables with validation added to the cfparam tag. 11. Strong encryption - ColdFusion now uses the Java security model enabling integration with third-party security products. 12. Integrated NT Domain authentication - ColdFusion login tags can now directly authenticate users in a Microsoft Windows NT Domain. 13. Improved XML functionality - DTD and schema validation, and XML decision functions are now included. 14. In-memory query metadata support - The powerful ColdFusion in-memory query feature has been enhanced to support metadata in queries created with the queryNew function. 15. Debugging improvements - The new cftimer tag allows developers to see execution time between lines of ColdFusion code as it executes on the server. 16. Cross-site scripting attack prevention - New scriptProtect attribute of the cfapplication helps protect against cross-site scripting attacks. Application event traps Now trap and respond to application, request and session events. 17. Enhanced web services support - Finer grain controls are now available enabling applications to have full access to SOAP headers, more control over WSDL creation, and more. 18. Administrator API - Programmatically perform tasks, such as datasource management, which previously required direct browser access to the ColdFusion administrator. 19. License usage scanner - ColdFusion can scan an IP subnet to produce a report of other ColdFusion servers running on networks to assist in license management and compliance. We'll make sure this is all highlighted on the web site moving forward. Thanks, Dave ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193433 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: That particular feature comparison is a bit misleading because it doesn't include all of the features added in CF7, which is odd when the same chart lists CFML Language Support which no version of CF will ever not include. However the chart doesn't make any mention of I guess, technically speaking, the standard edition includes *ALL* CFML language features... that includes CFREPORT CFDOCUMENT CFCHART etc.. without restriction. So listing reporting would be a bit redundant.. but I can definately see why it confused people. It confused me at first. - Rick ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193436 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
At 01:45 PM 07/02/2005, you wrote: 5. New CFCHART engine - Produce high-quality charts and graphs with over 200 different modifiable attributes to control animation, colors, labels, and more. 6. Ready-to-use chart styles - Use pre-defined chart styles for professional looking charts and graphs or create new styles for use across multiple charts and graphs. Where can we get more information on this? What chart styles are available? I use a lot of radar and high/low/close charts. Can the new engine do these? Is it something I can create? The page is pretty limited in information about the actual features. T ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193448 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Thane, I would suggest downloading the developer edition and trying it out. -Joe On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:55:50 -0400, Thane Sherrington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:45 PM 07/02/2005, you wrote: 5. New CFCHART engine - Produce high-quality charts and graphs with over 200 different modifiable attributes to control animation, colors, labels, and more. 6. Ready-to-use chart styles - Use pre-defined chart styles for professional looking charts and graphs or create new styles for use across multiple charts and graphs. Where can we get more information on this? What chart styles are available? I use a lot of radar and high/low/close charts. Can the new engine do these? Is it something I can create? The page is pretty limited in information about the actual features. T ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193452 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Hi, Can anyone explain to me the process for installing and setting CFMX 7.0 on a multi-machined Weblogic cluster. My Web Services group has a new set of rules as to what can be installed on their machines and what cannot. They are hoping that CFMX 7.0 applications running under J2EE are just a simple WAR file that they can push to production and that no piece of the CFMX Server or Administrator need to be installed on their hardware. They are simply looking for a standard WAR file with the CF engine and the application code. Is this how CFMX 7.0 for J2EE works. Thanks Mario == This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure. == ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193463 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:35:19 -, Ciliotta, Mario [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Web Services group has a new set of rules as to what can be installed on their machines and what cannot. They are hoping that CFMX 7.0 applications running under J2EE are just a simple WAR file that they can push to production and that no piece of the CFMX Server or Administrator need to be installed on their hardware. They are simply looking for a standard WAR file with the CF engine and the application code. The Java installer (coldfusion-70-other.jar) lets you create a cfusion.war file that you can then simply deploy to your J2EE server. Then CFMX 7 lets you package your CF applications, along with the CF runtime, into a single WAR which can be deployed to other J2EE server instances. So, I think the answer to your question is yes... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193468 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Can anyone explain to me the process for installing and setting CFMX 7.0 on a multi-machined Weblogic cluster. The best instructions for CFMX 7 on Weblogic are found here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/coldfusion/j2ee/cfmx7j2ee_weblogic_deploy. html An exploded war is the recommended install type for WL. Regarding clustering WL servers, you'd have to consult with the BEA documentation for that. -Steven Erat ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193469 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
Matt, Ouch, I don't like that grid one bit. It is designed to show what Enterprise has over Standard, but makes it look like nothing was added to Standard in CFMX7, which is definitely not the case. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Matt Wisdom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:46 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Take a look at the feature breakdown in this marketing piece -- every single feature listed is in the enterprise other than CFML support, OS support, and basic DB support. If I'm not mistaken, I have CFML support in MX already. No need to upgrade the standard version (unless you have a killer need for some of the features not listed there). http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editions/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I'd love to know the sales figures behind this decision, but my guess is that the lower-end customer base has been dramatically eroded by PHP and the free .net bundled with Windows Server. I assume that the main CF customers remaining are the corporate customers that have too much invested to switch or that can realize enough savings on developer salaries to pay the higher dollars for enterprise. From this, I would expect a dramatic drop in the sales of upgrades from Standard edition customers, and ultimately, a continued decline in the developer base for CF as those customers move away from CF. Perhaps MM's plan is to migrate enterprise features downwards in future versions to alleviate this problem. We'll see, but going higher end when your customer base and market share are eroding typically accelerates the decline into obscurity. Matt ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193480 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: CFMX 7 feature breakdown
He made a well argumented comment, don't shoot him immediately for it. Management here said exactly the same as he did :) What he meant is that competition in that part of the market is so high, it is virtually impossible to compete. Besides the .NET shares, the PHP share in the lower end market is really high. PHP started as a simple language, but evolved into a stable and robust language with the same capabilities as it's competitors. And once you have worked with PHP the unique selling point of ColdFusion development speed doesn't matter, because you can develop as fast in PHP as in ColdFusion :) What will matter, is the level of functionality you can give developers to compete with. Featuresets of competitors are pretty huge these days, and ColdFusion has some things others don't have, but the same thing counts for those competitors. You might ask yourself the question, what am I going to respond to a customer saying Why would I pay for ColdFusion if I can get A, B, or C for free?. Only in specific cases you can throw it on ColdFusion specific functionality, but even then boxing up against free publicity marketed languages is very hard for an Account Manager. Just to clear things up :) I know this issue pops up regularly, but it isn't something you have to put away beneath the soil. I think it needs attention, but that attention is expensive, and requires strong product strategy. :) Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Rick Root [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: maandag 7 februari 2005 18:17 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: CFMX 7 feature breakdown Matt Wisdom wrote: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/product_editio ns/ It's quite clear from the breakdown of features that MM has written off the standard edition market. I think you should read EVERYTHING on that page, particular the paragraph about Standard before making a ridiculous statement like that: ColdFusion MX 7 Standard is the solution for delivering a powerful website or application on a single server. It features all the RAD development capabilities of ColdFusion, powerful new features such as PDF and FlashPaper document generation, rich flash forms, structured business reporting, and more-all in an easy-to-manage configuration that is ideal for small to medium-sized businesses. - Rick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193546 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
