Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
- Original Message - From: Todd Ashworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation There is a very grey line here .. maybe. Take this real life example: There is no grey line. If you own the code, you can decrypt it. If you don't, you can't, unless you have the permission of the owner. It's not legal to decrypt even to look. That still constitutes stealing of or infringing on the intellectual property. And the argument that, well, you know people are going to decrypt it does not make it any more legal. Dave ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I think the core problem in this discussion is that the Macromedia acolytes Macromedia acolytes? I've been a ColdFusion developer for a LONG time, much before I went to Macromedia. I also began this discussion by simply saying that I _thought_ the use of a decryptor was illegal, and that I thought in _general_ it wasn't right, and, I made it clear, that I did not speak for Macromedia. I do my best to help people on this list. I am not here selling ColdFusion or trying to spy on people who use the decryptor. I'm a coder, not a layer. Yes, my email address is @ Macromedia.com, but that is only because cf-talk doesn't easily allow you to post from multiple addresses. If the only way you will believe that I'm saying _my_ opinion is for me to change email addresses, well, then maybe that's something I need to do. I think most people here know me and know that I am _not_ a corporate mouth piece for Macromedia. The dark side is a tempting mistress, no? Sure it is. As is ignorance, Steve. Raymond Camden, who works for Macromedia, but also, believe it or not, has his own opinions. p.s. Perhaps it is time for us to take this to cf-community? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OK lets get a grip: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
If you have an idea to share you should do so. Don't let a bunch of rhetoric stop you from doing your thing. Steve -Original Message- From: James Milks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OK lets get a grip: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I never figured I would start a firestorm about this... I am trying to dynamically create a DSN and know for a fact that there are templates in the CF administrator to do so. Via CFHTTP, I figured I had it solved, but I keep getting busted by the login for the Administrator, so I was going to figure out why it is puking by looking at the encryptrd files, and was going t yak about it at the CFUG meeting. I was NOT going to mention that I used the decryptor, but simply that it can be done with existing templates provided you know what to pass. However, I will likely avoid doing so as I don't want the whole CF community having a cow over this. James ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
OK, first I have to weigh in on Ray's side. He's one of the few people at MM that I still trust and he's a community member first and foremost. When he's talking about the decryptor, he's not sprouting MM dogma but speaking his own feelings which happen to be my own. Decrypting CF templates is a very tricky and dangerous operation. This is not from a technical standpoint but from a social and licensing one. Licensing wise you're not allowed to do so. If you do it in the privacy of your own home and no one knows than it's one thing but doing it publicly is another. This goes even more so for the social aspect. If people know you have a decryptor then they'll start to wonder if you're stealing their code. They start to get upset that CF only used DES for its encryption rather than something stronger. They start to wonder who else is looking at their code. They start to not post to the tag gallery, not to try and sell their code and basically a small part of the community dies. Then we have arguments about it again and again (and again) which have no point but to make people upset. We already know that neo will allow code to compile into servlets so there's no need for encryption. We already know that stronger encryption would hurt CF in speed and in its ability to be sold over seas. We already know that there are third party encryption packages that add onto CF for those who want it. We also know that this topic has gotten way off topic for CF-Talk. For that last reason I'm moving this over to CF-Community and would appreciate it if others would respect that move and talk about it there. Also, please respect your fellow CF programmers. We're all here for the language and each other. If we're not, then why are we here at all. Michael Dinowitz List Admin Not MM affiliated and actually upsetting them on many occasions. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Hi all, I need a copy of the decryptor tag floating around for a cfug presentation next week. I have misplaced my copy...Please provide a URL where I can locate one. Thanks, James Milks Noncubicle Corporation www.noncubicle.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 560-9855 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
In the post to you personally... -Original Message- From: James Milks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 08 June 2001 12:32 To: CF-Talk Subject: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Hi all, I need a copy of the decryptor tag floating around for a cfug presentation next week. I have misplaced my copy...Please provide a URL where I can locate one. Thanks, James Milks Noncubicle Corporation www.noncubicle.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 560-9855 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Decryptor tag? Are you referring to the file that will decrypt cf templates that authors have encrypted? That's not a 'tag'. Steven Semrau SRA International, Inc. Senior Member, Professional Staff [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Com: (703) 805-1095 DSN: (703) 655-1095 -Original Message- From: James Milks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:32 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Hi all, I need a copy of the decryptor tag floating around for a cfug presentation next week. I have misplaced my copy...Please provide a URL where I can locate one. Thanks, James Milks Noncubicle Corporation www.noncubicle.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 560-9855 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich -Original Message- From: Semrau, Steven L Mr SRA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Decryptor tag? Are you referring to the file that will decrypt cf templates that authors have encrypted? That's not a 'tag'. Steven Semrau SRA International, Inc. Senior Member, Professional Staff [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Com: (703) 805-1095 DSN: (703) 655-1095 -Original Message- From: James Milks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:32 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Hi all, I need a copy of the decryptor tag floating around for a cfug presentation next week. I have misplaced my copy...Please provide a URL where I can locate one. Thanks, James Milks Noncubicle Corporation www.noncubicle.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 560-9855 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich -Original Message- From: Semrau, Steven L Mr SRA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Decryptor tag? Are you referring to the file that will decrypt cf templates that authors have encrypted? That's not a 'tag'. Steven Semrau SRA International, Inc. Senior Member, Professional Staff [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Com: (703) 805-1095 DSN: (703) 655-1095 -Original Message- From: James Milks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:32 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Hi all, I need a copy of the decryptor tag floating around for a cfug presentation next week. I have misplaced my copy...Please provide a URL where I can locate one. Thanks, James Milks Noncubicle Corporation www.noncubicle.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] (613) 560-9855 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I agree with you Raymond, I think as a producer of software I am offering a fair approach to the folks out there that are new to Cold Fusion. For every Application that I write and offer for sale I also make available all of the custom tags and components that it took to build that software. If your like most people the biggest reason for decrypting a template is to see how it was built rather than to steal it from the author. If you buy CF application from me, it is not because you can not build it yourself but rather you don't have the time. So if I offer you the tool to build it yourself and then offer the end product for sale I would hope you would take the initiative to learn the components instead of hack into the finished product. Not all companies take the same approach but I think most of the A/MM partners do, at least the ones that are CFUG managers. My .02 cents - Original Message - From: Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:45 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation | Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden | of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so | casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? | | Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be | decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can | contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this | software. | | Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm | talking about legality. | | === | Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia | | Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ UIN : 3679482 | | My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda | | -Original Message- | From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation | | | http://shrewm.net/cfd/ | | -Original Message- | From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation | | | That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it | recently and it has been down. | Is there another? | Rich | | | | ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... John -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
It would also be a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
At 09:45 AM 06/08/2001 -0400, you wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? I suppose it is something that may have to be examined on a case-by-case basis. I have heard of stories where our developer left, all the code is encrypted, he hates us, no unencrypted backups. At this point applying some form of decryption technology is not wrong. Althought the company in question did get 'screwed' by their developer. Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. Legally, it would depend on what code you are decrypting, who owns it, and what your contract is with that person (or company). If I write code for a client under a contract where I own the code, give it to them decrypted. I'd be mighty angry if I found out that client went ahead and decrypted the code for whatever reason. Would I be angry enough to sue or go after them for further compensation, or even sue them? It probably depends upon the client. Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: Reboog711 | ICQ: 5246969 | Phone: 860-229-2781 -- Instant ColdFusion 5.0 | ISBN: 0-07-213238-8 Due out June 2001 -- DotComIt, LLC database driven web data using ColdFusion, Lotus Notes/Domino -- Far Cry Fly, Alternative Folk Rock http://www.farcryfly.com | http://www.mp3.com/FarCryFly -- I've been vindicated, I've been loved and hated I've been pulled aside and told that I was overrated ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I haven't reviewed how the macromedia license handles these aspects, but what is interesting to note is this, Yes, it isn't exactly a 'moral' thing to decrypt someone else's tag and use their code. You could likely be confronted with some serious copyright infringement legal issues from the author of the tag. However, we all know that the world isn't exactly a fair place and practices like this happen frequently. Reverse engineering of programs has been around for a long time and will probably remain until everyone develops some sort of conscience. I do find it interesting that technical support can resolve a 'encryption issue' though...basically tells me that the encryption isn't too secure to begin with :) Chris -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I agree, I found it this morning on a major search engine -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:18 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... John -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:45 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
ok, so how does one go about encrypting a CFm template? nick -Original Message- From: Bryan LaPlante [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 08 June 2001 15:17 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I agree with you Raymond, I think as a producer of software I am offering a fair approach to the folks out there that are new to Cold Fusion. For every Application that I write and offer for sale I also make available all of the custom tags and components that it took to build that software. If your like most people the biggest reason for decrypting a template is to see how it was built rather than to steal it from the author. If you buy CF application from me, it is not because you can not build it yourself but rather you don't have the time. So if I offer you the tool to build it yourself and then offer the end product for sale I would hope you would take the initiative to learn the components instead of hack into the finished product. Not all companies take the same approach but I think most of the A/MM partners do, at least the ones that are CFUG managers. My .02 cents - Original Message - From: Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:45 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation | Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden | of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so | casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? | | Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be | decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can | contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this | software. | | Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm | talking about legality. | | === | Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia | | Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ UIN : 3679482 | | My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda | | -Original Message- | From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation | | | http://shrewm.net/cfd/ | | -Original Message- | From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation | | | That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it | recently and it has been down. | Is there another? | Rich | | | | ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
- Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Lets be sure we understand something Is it illegal to have such a utility or is it illegal to use the utiltiy. I do believe there is a similar argument about DVDs and DeCSS??? Just a thought... Mike -Original Message- From: Lon Lentz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation It would also be a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
My question: First we must assume that I am using the program on a file in which I own the code. Now is it illegal for me to use this program or just to write it? I have not read the license agreement completely so I am not sure, and I think I am going to do that. At 09:49 AM 6/8/2001 -0400, you wrote: Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I do find it interesting that technical support can resolve a 'encryption issue' though...basically tells me that the encryption isn't too secure to begin with :) I wouldn't say that. Even super-strong encryption things can normally be decrypted... otherwise, what's the point? Unless your talking about a one way encryption, but that's something different. (Although I'm no crypto expert.) === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Howie, I would agree with getting off the net is impossible, that is why I presented #2, change the basic encryption scheme to something different, there are plenty of methods to encrypt a file that have a user-defined key that are fast...so just change to a different method, now it might only take a week or two for someone to crack that too, but some type of effort by MM to combat this is necessary... John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I think it was VERY unprofessional of those individuals that posted a link directly to the utility. I have no idea how many people are on this list, but now all of them have knowledge of that site. Why don't you just upload a copy of your CFAS cd and post a link to that too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Is it illegal to have such a utility or is it illegal to use the utiltiy. Or perhaps illegal/unethical to use it for the purpose of then using someone else's code? Here's another issue... Is it bad/unethical to use the undocumented tags/functions found in the CF Administrator? These have been documented elsewhere (webpages, allaire forums, etc), although the only way people found them was by decrypting the administrator. Norman -Original Message- From: Michael Bruce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:10 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Lets be sure we understand something Is it illegal to have such a utility or is it illegal to use the utiltiy. I do believe there is a similar argument about DVDs and DeCSS??? Just a thought... Mike -Original Message- From: Lon Lentz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation It would also be a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. But according to the federal judge in the first round of MPAA vs. 2600 in the DeCSS case, circumventing _any_ encryption on _any_ digital work, without permission from the copyright holder, is a violation of federal law. 2600 had a federal injunction to remove the program from their site and to remove all links to it. Now, I personally am not in favor of this law as it has profound impact on fair use rights and my ability to watch/listen to my purchased copy of a work anywhere I want, anyway I want, but any tool used for circumvention of encrypted copywritten works is illegal (according to this case which is in appeal). If you're interested, you can find all the specifics of the case, including all of the injunctions, the filings, and the court decisions at www.2600.com Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Bruce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:10 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Lets be sure we understand something Is it illegal to have such a utility or is it illegal to use the utiltiy. I do believe there is a similar argument about DVDs and DeCSS??? Just a thought... Mike -Original Message- From: Lon Lentz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation It would also be a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Reverse engineering of programs has been around for a long time and will probably remain until everyone develops some sort of conscience. Personally, I have used the decryptor a few times for different reasons; We had a programmer leave and they left everything encrypted, so we had to decrypt the files to update them and fix errors The other time is a little like reverse engineering - I downloaded a tag from the gallery which did sort of what I wanted, but not enough... I decrypted it to see how they did one particular part, and then re-wrote it to put it into my template... I didn't use their code at all, but used the theory behind it - it saved a few hours of working out how it was done (or waiting for someone to help on CF-Talk g) Since I wouldn't decrypt a purchased product, nobody is losing any money from they way I've done it... but it has been invaluable when saving time on certain projects Personally, I believe anything in the Tag Gallery (and is free) shouldn't be encrypted as you're effectively giving away the files anyways... The decrypting issue becomes one of ethics in the end (for non-purchased products), but is a legal matter if it's a paid-for product - especially if the company supplies an Open Source version at a cost Philip Arnold Director Certified ColdFusion Developer ASP Multimedia Limited T: +44 (0)20 8680 1133 Websites for the real world ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. ** ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I think Jeff is write. When a developer who is paid by a company leaves then just to spite the owner, encrypt's the code he was paid for now that is wrong. The owner should have the right to decrypt the code he paid for. I'm sorry but I am glad the code is out there. Now, as a developer I know the tag is out there so I just no longer encrypt anything. It's like this. If someone wants a refund before you say a thing ask yourself if you are going to give it. If so do it in the nicest manner, with a smile on your face and make them fell good about doing business with you. Or, if you decide not to refund them...Stand firm and say no and that's final! You may lose that customer but you were going to lose them anyway and you saved yourself the hassle of bickering about it. Steph ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. just my .02 -kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Robert Long [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I think it was VERY unprofessional of those individuals that posted a link directly to the utility. I have no idea how many people are on this list, but now all of them have knowledge of that site. Why don't you just upload a copy of your CFAS cd and post a link to that too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I have been quiet on this, however, it infuriates me that MM/Allaire have weak protection... ideally, it was a good thing early on.. when cracked they spun it as it is to keep casual observers out and that bundled software to client storyline... If you use alogorithms that can be cracked, or such becomes reality, it is your responsibility to modify the alogorithm/routine to make it secure again. Alternatively, no longer support it and tell people to develop there own or create a framework for third party developers. Bad protection is bad protection. Legalese aside... if I want to decrypt something I might run the 3rd party utility.. I too forget passwords and similar things... Remember, nothing is really completely secure. -paris [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Top-Link Tech (John Ceci)) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Howie, I would agree with getting off the net is impossible, that is why I presented #2, change the basic encryption scheme to something different, there are plenty of methods to encrypt a file that have a user-defined key that are fast...so just change to a different method, now it might only take a week or two for someone to crack that too, but some type of effort by MM to combat this is necessary... John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
A google search on 'cold fusion decrypt program' leads to the source code of cfdecrypt on the fifth hit. A search on 'cfdecrypt' returns a page full of links of the same sort. It's safe to file this under common knowledge. Also, looking briefly at the source code, it looks like a simple wrapper to the DES library, something that has been in the public domain for years. I can see nothing illegal in the code. Using it may violate an end-user agreement, but that is a civil matter. Using it to decrypt copyrighted software, copying that software or modifying it, yadda, yadda, would be actually illegal, as in criminal. -Original Message- From: Robert Long [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I think it was VERY unprofessional of those individuals that posted a link directly to the utility. I have no idea how many people are on this list, but now all of them have knowledge of that site. Why don't you just upload a copy of your CFAS cd and post a link to that too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. == = Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
But, if the key is user-defined then how would someone distribute their software? the CF server would need to know the key in order to open the encrypted file. Would each CF server then need to maintain multiple keys? I don't think that is workable. Like I said, the decryption needs to be fast for the server and so that is why CF has a built-in key. Regards, Howie BTW - not sure how many people realize it but the key that Allaire originally used was actually very clever. It was designed so that a casual cracker would not find it easily as it looks to be part of the code. If you look at the binary code of the Allaire encrypter the key is there but definitely not obvious. - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Howie, I would agree with getting off the net is impossible, that is why I presented #2, change the basic encryption scheme to something different, there are plenty of methods to encrypt a file that have a user-defined key that are fast...so just change to a different method, now it might only take a week or two for someone to crack that too, but some type of effort by MM to combat this is necessary... John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
COmpanies that try to eradicate web items they do not like should be put on a list and publically humiliated... It is just such a dumb solution and keep those fancy expensive lawyers busY making money and the courts clogged with useless mounds of paperwork... change the encryption, framework it, or drop it... -paris [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Top-Link Tech (John Ceci)) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Howie, I would agree with getting off the net is impossible, that is why I presented #2, change the basic encryption scheme to something different, there are plenty of methods to encrypt a file that have a user-defined key that are fast...so just change to a different method, now it might only take a week or two for someone to crack that too, but some type of effort by MM to combat this is necessary... John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) Reminds me of one of my favorites lines from Newsradio: Trying to get something off the internet is like trying to get pee out of a pool Tim P. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
We had a programmer leave and they left everything encrypted, so we had to decrypt the files to update them and fix errors I can see this. But again, legally, you should have, probably, contacted Tech Support @ Macromedia. The other time is a little like reverse engineering - I downloaded a tag from the gallery which did sort of what I wanted, but not enough... I decrypted it to see how they did one particular part, and then re-wrote it to put it into my template... I didn't use their code at all, but used the theory behind it - it saved a few hours of working out how it was done (or waiting for someone to help on CF-Talk g) This is just wrong. If I encrypt a tag, that should be the end of it. Just because you want to see how I did it doesn't give you the right to decrypt it. Period. Since I wouldn't decrypt a purchased product, nobody is losing any money from they way I've done it... but it has been invaluable when saving time on certain projects I repeat: If I encrypt a tag, that should be the end of it. Just because you want to see how I did it doesn't give you the right to decrypt it. Period. Personally, I believe anything in the Tag Gallery (and is free) shouldn't be encrypted as you're effectively giving away the files anyways... I would repeat myself again but that would be silly. If I choose to give you my code, but I don't want you to see my source, that's my choice, not yours. If you decide to not use my code because you can't check the source, that's ok, but don't tell me you have the right to decrypt my code just because you feel like it. Maybe I feel like hacking into your server? The decrypting issue becomes one of ethics in the end (for non-purchased products), but is a legal matter if it's a paid-for product - especially if the company supplies an Open Source version at a cost And this is where I get confused. You obviously recognize that it's an ethics thing, but what kind of ethics state that, Even though you encrypted your code and don't want me to see it, I have the right to ignore you and look at it? Raymond Camden ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
True, I think my point was more in finding humor in the fact that a simple call to technical support would resolve the issue :) I've never actually looked at what CF generates for encrypted content but I assume that the key is stored with in the encrypted file or that CF has a 'master' key for decrypting it. In any event, however, it prevents the standard user from being unable to read the code. Chris -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I do find it interesting that technical support can resolve a 'encryption issue' though...basically tells me that the encryption isn't too secure to begin with :) I wouldn't say that. Even super-strong encryption things can normally be decrypted... otherwise, what's the point? Unless your talking about a one way encryption, but that's something different. (Although I'm no crypto expert.) === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I don't see how the software can be illegal, as it does have legitimate use if you've lost or don't have immediate access to your unencrypted source code. How can it be illegal to circumvent encryption which you yourself applied to your own source code to which you yourself own the copyright??? And even if Macromedia tech support can decrypt it for you, sometimes you simply might not have the luxury of the time it would take to run through the process with them. - Original Message - From: Lon Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 12:28 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. But according to the federal judge in the first round of MPAA vs. 2600 in the DeCSS case, circumventing _any_ encryption on _any_ digital work, without permission from the copyright holder, is a violation of federal law. 2600 had a federal injunction to remove the program from their site and to remove all links to it. Now, I personally am not in favor of this law as it has profound impact on fair use rights and my ability to watch/listen to my purchased copy of a work anywhere I want, anyway I want, but any tool used for circumvention of encrypted copywritten works is illegal (according to this case which is in appeal). If you're interested, you can find all the specifics of the case, including all of the injunctions, the filings, and the court decisions at www.2600.com Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Bruce [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:10 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Lets be sure we understand something Is it illegal to have such a utility or is it illegal to use the utiltiy. I do believe there is a similar argument about DVDs and DeCSS??? Just a thought... Mike -Original Message- From: Lon Lentz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation It would also be a violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. CF_Sarcasm Oh yea, I remember learning to code in school by stealing other's people code. Yea, I did it all the time. I assume you actually paid for that book, right? Or borrowed it from the library? There is a difference. I strongly encourage people to learn by looking at other people's code... but don't you think it's fair to ASK that person beforehand? (Unless they posted it to the web to share with the world.) And if that person has encrypted their code, maybe, just maybe, and I know I'm stepping out on a limb here, but maybe they don't want you to read their code? What really bugs me is this attitude of If I want to learn, it's ok for me to read your code, even if you don't want me to. I'm not attacking you personally Kevin, but I just think that's wrong. Raymond Camden ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
But Kevin that book has been published and the author has made the decision to give that code away with the COST of the book...or the Teacher has been PAID by the school to develop the program as a learning tool...See the general thread there...MONEY changing hands... If you just pluck a tag off the tag gallery, decrypt it and then use the code, in whole or part, you are breaking the law... John -Original Message- From: Kevin Mansel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. just my .02 -kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Robert Long [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I think it was VERY unprofessional of those individuals that posted a link directly to the utility. I have no idea how many people are on this list, but now all of them have knowledge of that site. Why don't you just upload a copy of your CFAS cd and post a link to that too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
There is a CFML Batch Encryptor here that will make a complete encrypted copy of your entire site (very handy) http://cfhub.com/tutorials/cfencode/ ok, so how does one go about encrypting a CFm template? nick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
On Friday, June 8, 2001, at 09:54 AM, Kevin Mansel wrote: A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. But you don't have to break into the teacher's house and rifle through his filing cabinet to get the code. If I encrypt something it is because I don't want you to look at it. This isn't a hard concept to grasp. If you don't like that then either find another code sample or try to write it yourself but trying to excuse decryption of protected source in this manner is ridiculous. -- Next we had an Information Age, but it turned out that the real killer apps for computer networks are social disruption and software piracy Bruce Sterling - Distraction ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Simple solution: Don't offer encryption of the templates in the first place. If you want what the encryption TRIES to do, write compiled code in whatever flavor you like for COM/Java/CFX. -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:57 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I have been quiet on this, however, it infuriates me that MM/Allaire have weak protection... ideally, it was a good thing early on.. when cracked they spun it as it is to keep casual observers out and that bundled software to client storyline... If you use alogorithms that can be cracked, or such becomes reality, it is your responsibility to modify the alogorithm/routine to make it secure again. Alternatively, no longer support it and tell people to develop there own or create a framework for third party developers. Bad protection is bad protection. Legalese aside... if I want to decrypt something I might run the 3rd party utility.. I too forget passwords and similar things... Remember, nothing is really completely secure. -paris [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Top-Link Tech (John Ceci)) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Howie, I would agree with getting off the net is impossible, that is why I presented #2, change the basic encryption scheme to something different, there are plenty of methods to encrypt a file that have a user-defined key that are fast...so just change to a different method, now it might only take a week or two for someone to crack that too, but some type of effort by MM to combat this is necessary... John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Template Encryption (was Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation)
The only good things I can think of (at the moment) about encrypting templates are to: (1) Make sure that clients who are unware of the decrypting tools don't inavertenly or purposely make modificatios to your code. (2) Make sure other ColdFusion developers sitting on a shared box cannot (easily) view your code. (3) Make sure that a webserver cannot display code in the case of a bug such as the reveal source bugs in Microsoft's IIS server. Can anyone else think of more good reasons to encrypt templates? ---mark Mark Warrick - Fusioneers.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 714-547-5386 http://www.fusioneers.com http://www.warrick.net ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Howie, A User-defined key would not be a bad thing necessarily...it is simply something that would have to be loaded when the server starts...they could even use a key creation method similar to what IIS uses when you need to issue a new certificate... Basically my premise is this, MM should do something if they are going to offer the feature... Regards, John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation But, if the key is user-defined then how would someone distribute their software? the CF server would need to know the key in order to open the encrypted file. Would each CF server then need to maintain multiple keys? I don't think that is workable. Like I said, the decryption needs to be fast for the server and so that is why CF has a built-in key. Regards, Howie BTW - not sure how many people realize it but the key that Allaire originally used was actually very clever. It was designed so that a casual cracker would not find it easily as it looks to be part of the code. If you look at the binary code of the Allaire encrypter the key is there but definitely not obvious. - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Howie, I would agree with getting off the net is impossible, that is why I presented #2, change the basic encryption scheme to something different, there are plenty of methods to encrypt a file that have a user-defined key that are fast...so just change to a different method, now it might only take a week or two for someone to crack that too, but some type of effort by MM to combat this is necessary... John -Original Message- From: Howie Hamlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation - Original Message - From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Ray, I would agree with your statement competely... BUT, since this program exists, and we have known that it exists for some time there are a couple of things MM should have done... #1. MM needs to find who wrote it and get the tag off the internet It's no secret: Matt Chapman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) And, if you search the net you'll find it all over the place (including source code) so getting it off the net is not going to happen. I've even seen it offered as shareware (if you can believe that!) #2. MM needs to change the encryption methodology inside of CF5.0 in the first SP which will then totally take the program out of usefulness... The problem with the cf encryption is that it needs to be fast and have a know key so this type of encrypton can be compromised. Regards, Howie John ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
At 09:54 AM 06/08/2001 -0700, you wrote: Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. That's now how I learned in school. The teacher said Do x in language y and then looked at our code and told us what was wrong with it / how to do it better. Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: Reboog711 | ICQ: 5246969 | Phone: 860-229-2781 -- Instant ColdFusion 5.0 | ISBN: 0-07-213238-8 Due out June 2001 -- DotComIt, LLC database driven web data using ColdFusion, Lotus Notes/Domino -- Far Cry Fly, Alternative Folk Rock http://www.farcryfly.com | http://www.mp3.com/FarCryFly -- I've been vindicated, I've been loved and hated I've been pulled aside and told that I was overrated ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Norman, Very good point. When those functions were found the only security concern I heard was that you should protect those functions from unauthorized use. No one questioned how they were found, and I didn't hear much of stink over why they were never released before. It was treated almost like an Easter egg or a feature for the hardcore developer. This is hypocritical on Allaire/Macromedia's part, in my opinion, because it flies in the face of their stance on CFDecrypt. How so? Well, CFDecrypt works by using an industry standard encryption algorithm, DES, and a known, static password that is imbedded into every copy of CF Server. The DES algorithm is not owned by Allaire/Macromedia so they have no claim against that portion of CFDecrypt. The password is embedded in the server code but, doesn't require any sort of decompiling to get, much like the Administrator functions are part of the code and require nothing more than knowledge of them to use. I think that a good parallel to this is the imbedded backdoor password that is part of IIS 4.0. When that was found you didn't hear Microsoft raising hell about _how_ someone discovered a plain-text backdoor into the web server used by upwards of 70% of commercial companies. They were too busy backpedaling and sending up smoke in an effort to not look as irresponsible and unprofessional as they were. Imagine if they had simply said, Our license agreement states that end-users aren't allowed to make use of this backdoor, so we aren't going to fix it. And by the way, we're going to send our lawyers against the person who discovered this. I don't condone the use of reverse engineering for malicious purposes but, it is ludicrous to villainize a piece of code, which is really only an idea, in a blanket fashion without regard to beneficial use. Just because it doesn't meet Allaire/Macromedia's corporate plans or shows a weakness in their product doesn't mean that the idea has no value. Oh, but, if you call us (Allaire/Macromedia) and possibly pay an incident fee we will be happy to do it for you. In other words, these tools are too much for _you_ to have. The suggestion to have it taken off the 'Net is really scary to me. A computer programs start as an idea, and code is the manifestation of that idea. The idea may not be successful or the implementation may not be successful, operationally or commercially, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value or a right to exist. The right to exist in effect is inherited from the rights of the developer as a person to think and create. Written human language is used to convey and distribute ideas. Sometimes those ideas are successful, sometimes not. Many times one persons opinion or idea conflicts with those of others but, here in the US we typically defend the individuals right to express themselves. If existing ideas can't stand up to the test of new ideas then those old ones fall by the wayside while the new idea prospers ... and the cycle repeats itself. The same holds true in computer science. Existing ideas should be challenged and new ideas should be allowed to reach their potential. When an existing idea is challenged the immediate reaction shouldn't be to silence the new idea. Imagine what life would really be like if something as trivial as this were enough to drive a global search and destroy mission against what ... an idea? If development shops really _need_ a strong encryption tool for ColdFusion code then demand that Macromedia provide such. If Macromedia is truly concerned about this then they will take the time and resources to provide a replacement for an encryption scheme that had an implementation problem to begin with. Maybe along the way they will realize that decryption capability is important to developers and it is shortsighted and patronizing to treat the customer as if they can't handle the responsibility or that Allaire/Macromedia has decided _for_ you that you don't need to decrypt CF code. I would ask that Macromedia implement a stronger encryption scheme along with a decryption tool for developers and stop villainizing an idea that simply shows that your previous idea wasn't perfect. Get over it, no idea is perfect. Adapt and overcome. Steve p.s. In answer to the inevitable, We're using our licensing rules against decryption to protect our customers, response I ask, If an effective mechanism was in place why would they need your _protection_? -Original Message- From: Norman Elton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:07 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Is it illegal to have such a utility or is it illegal to use the utiltiy. Or perhaps illegal/unethical to use it for the purpose of then using someone else's code? Here's another issue... Is it bad/unethical to use the undocumented tags/functions found in the CF Administrator? These have been documented elsewhere (webpages, allaire forums, etc), although the only way
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
So, by your logic, if I use weak encryption, then I shouldn't try to stop people from abusing it? Therefore, I shouldn't press charges against a criminal if I don't use a strong lock? I may be stupid for not using a good lock, but that doesn't mean I should get robbed. Raymond Camden -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation COmpanies that try to eradicate web items they do not like should be put on a list and publically humiliated... It is just such a dumb solution and keep those fancy expensive lawyers busY making money and the courts clogged with useless mounds of paperwork... change the encryption, framework it, or drop it... -paris ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I would agree with Raymond. Just because you didn't buy the product does not mean the code is not copyrighted. Many people produce freeware products. That means you are free to use the product that you are provided. Decrypting/Reverse engineering gives you something you were not originally given. Did you read the license agreement that you agreed to when you downloaded those tags. I bet they said Decrypting/Reverse engineering is against the license agreement. And doing so is not only unethical but illegal. Not matter if you paid for it, were given it, or the author paid you to take it. At 02:07 PM 6/8/2001 -0400, you wrote: We had a programmer leave and they left everything encrypted, so we had to decrypt the files to update them and fix errors I can see this. But again, legally, you should have, probably, contacted Tech Support @ Macromedia. The other time is a little like reverse engineering - I downloaded a tag from the gallery which did sort of what I wanted, but not enough... I decrypted it to see how they did one particular part, and then re-wrote it to put it into my template... I didn't use their code at all, but used the theory behind it - it saved a few hours of working out how it was done (or waiting for someone to help on CF-Talk g) This is just wrong. If I encrypt a tag, that should be the end of it. Just because you want to see how I did it doesn't give you the right to decrypt it. Period. Since I wouldn't decrypt a purchased product, nobody is losing any money from they way I've done it... but it has been invaluable when saving time on certain projects I repeat: If I encrypt a tag, that should be the end of it. Just because you want to see how I did it doesn't give you the right to decrypt it. Period. Personally, I believe anything in the Tag Gallery (and is free) shouldn't be encrypted as you're effectively giving away the files anyways... I would repeat myself again but that would be silly. If I choose to give you my code, but I don't want you to see my source, that's my choice, not yours. If you decide to not use my code because you can't check the source, that's ok, but don't tell me you have the right to decrypt my code just because you feel like it. Maybe I feel like hacking into your server? The decrypting issue becomes one of ethics in the end (for non-purchased products), but is a legal matter if it's a paid-for product - especially if the company supplies an Open Source version at a cost And this is where I get confused. You obviously recognize that it's an ethics thing, but what kind of ethics state that, Even though you encrypted your code and don't want me to see it, I have the right to ignore you and look at it? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Raymond, I didn't take it as a personal attack :) Maybe i was a little vague on the book, code thing, I am just talking about examples they give in books, and taking those examples, studying how the code was written, and then taking it to a high level. I'm not talking about stealing code or anything like that, i mean maybe thats the way i made it sound, now that i read it back to myself out loud... (doh!) But my true intentions were to just emphasize the fact that even when people look at source code online, or .js scripts, that is a lot of what learning is. -kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. CF_Sarcasm Oh yea, I remember learning to code in school by stealing other's people code. Yea, I did it all the time. I assume you actually paid for that book, right? Or borrowed it from the library? There is a difference. I strongly encourage people to learn by looking at other people's code... but don't you think it's fair to ASK that person beforehand? (Unless they posted it to the web to share with the world.) And if that person has encrypted their code, maybe, just maybe, and I know I'm stepping out on a limb here, but maybe they don't want you to read their code? What really bugs me is this attitude of If I want to learn, it's ok for me to read your code, even if you don't want me to. I'm not attacking you personally Kevin, but I just think that's wrong. Raymond Camden ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
The key phrase in my explanation was permission from owner. If you own the code, it's legal to circumvent it. But by the judge's declaration in the DeCSS case, any tool used for encryption circumvention violates the DMCA. I'm not saying it's right, just what the judge said. The MPAA has won a multi-million dollar suit (still in appeal) against 2600 just for hosting a copy of the program. Lon Lentz Applications Developer CyberEntomologist - Alvion Technologies DataWarehousing and List Sales - Market Your Lists on the Net! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941-574-8600 Ext. 210 -Original Message- From: Marc Edwards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 2:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I don't see how the software can be illegal, as it does have legitimate use if you've lost or don't have immediate access to your unencrypted source code. How can it be illegal to circumvent encryption which you yourself applied to your own source code to which you yourself own the copyright??? And even if Macromedia tech support can decrypt it for you, sometimes you simply might not have the luxury of the time it would take to run through the process with them. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Well i'm not talking about plagerism, i'm talking about studying the code, how they made it work, etc, etcthen developing your own application, that is how a lot of us learned from bookes that we've bought, starting out with cold fusion, I am sure most of us put in a few bits of code mentioned in forta's books, and tried it out, then took off with it right? That is what my majority point is. kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation But Kevin that book has been published and the author has made the decision to give that code away with the COST of the book...or the Teacher has been PAID by the school to develop the program as a learning tool...See the general thread there...MONEY changing hands... If you just pluck a tag off the tag gallery, decrypt it and then use the code, in whole or part, you are breaking the law... John -Original Message- From: Kevin Mansel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. just my .02 -kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Robert Long [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I think it was VERY unprofessional of those individuals that posted a link directly to the utility. I have no idea how many people are on this list, but now all of them have knowledge of that site. Why don't you just upload a copy of your CFAS cd and post a link to that too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I've been quiet on this topic but can't resist anymore... Yes it's immoral to use the cfdecrypt application to decrypt other people's tags, code, etc... Is that really the issue here? It's also immoral to steal cars, embezzle money from your employer, (insert any felony or misdemeanor you want here...). But that hasn't stopped some people from doing it!!! Buyer beware! If you encrypt your CF tags and templates, know for darn sure that someone will decrypt them. Period. No talk of morality or legality, just reality. You really want to secure your tags, write 'em in C++ and compile away. But then again any 13 year old with a hex editor could probably hack those as well. My 0.02, Jeff Garza Lead Developer/Webmaster Spectrum Astro, Inc. 480.892.8200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spectrumastro.com -Original Message- From: Zac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation On Friday, June 8, 2001, at 09:54 AM, Kevin Mansel wrote: A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. But you don't have to break into the teacher's house and rifle through his filing cabinet to get the code. If I encrypt something it is because I don't want you to look at it. This isn't a hard concept to grasp. If you don't like that then either find another code sample or try to write it yourself but trying to excuse decryption of protected source in this manner is ridiculous. -- Next we had an Information Age, but it turned out that the real killer apps for computer networks are social disruption and software piracy Bruce Sterling - Distraction ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I just want to say when I had javascript question I was told by a very well known/ published developer just to look at the code generated by the tag and the java would be there. Humm now was that illegal? Did, this break any laws. Let's see Iat the time I had no idea how to do javascript validation so I created a cfform chose validation on the CFINPUT and ran the page. Then I right clicked and there was the Javascript. Did I just steal code. Did, I cause Allaire (at the time) loss of revenue for that code. I mean it wasn't just there for the taking. I had to actually find a work around to get it. Well thanks to the most well known Developers I learned a little javascript to help me prevent using cfinput instead of input. Maybe I should go to jail. Maybe the developer who recommend it should go to jail as an accomplish. Sorry, this is the same as decrypt. I guess anyone who right clicks to look at source code is a thief and should be locked up. Well, I hope that doesn't effect your stock price because I have lost enough. And, don't tell me MM is not guilty of reverse engineering the tags and extensions posted to their site. Just ask some of their old partners like Paper Thin and Able Solutions about the great relationship they had and what made it go astray. Just to abandon the project they could never get off the ground successfully. (SPECTRA). Get a grip, if you don't want the average developer in your code write it in C++ or JAVA. Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. CF_Sarcasm Oh yea, I remember learning to code in school by stealing other's people code. Yea, I did it all the time. I assume you actually paid for that book, right? Or borrowed it from the library? There is a difference. I strongly encourage people to learn by looking at other people's code... but don't you think it's fair to ASK that person beforehand? (Unless they posted it to the web to share with the world.) And if that person has encrypted their code, maybe, just maybe, and I know I'm stepping out on a limb here, but maybe they don't want you to read their code? What really bugs me is this attitude of If I want to learn, it's ok for me to read your code, even if you don't want me to. I'm not attacking you personally Kevin, but I just think that's wrong. Raymond Camden ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
There are a ton of books out there, why would you need to decrypt someone's tags to learn how to do something? Hell, this list is a wealth of free information. If you need to know how to do something, just ask. I am sure someone out here has done the same thing you're trying to do. Don't rip someone off to solve your problem. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 5:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation At 09:54 AM 06/08/2001 -0700, you wrote: Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. That's now how I learned in school. The teacher said Do x in language y and then looked at our code and told us what was wrong with it / how to do it better. Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: Reboog711 | ICQ: 5246969 | Phone: 860-229-2781 -- Instant ColdFusion 5.0 | ISBN: 0-07-213238-8 Due out June 2001 -- DotComIt, LLC database driven web data using ColdFusion, Lotus Notes/Domino -- Far Cry Fly, Alternative Folk Rock http://www.farcryfly.com | http://www.mp3.com/FarCryFly -- I've been vindicated, I've been loved and hated I've been pulled aside and told that I was overrated ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
If you are weak in nature you get eaten. The same is true in capitalism. Unfortunately, law and psuedo enforcement tend to be the only means by which people can regulate and do things... Perhaps this is the point where I say open source is so much more mature... even though open source fails in capitalistic environment over time by default of needing capital. If the lock on your car was suffice, the CLUB wouldn't have sold so many now would they? Should people be punished for theft of physical products? Yes, there is a tangible cost for each item, media, distribution, etc. For intangibles the argument of stating worth, value, etc. falls fairly hard on its face. Most of the disassembly of code seems to be for a routine - not to modify the program, reface it and sell it.. Although I am sure this happens... Heck even the open source community has for profit companies now that are based on other people's work, open source or not it remains the origin of many things. So my point here is that the intellectual debate and enforcement that came from big business should be more sensible and security should be better, quit ducking the issue. If your locks don't work you change them. If your taxes are too high you structure... If your code isn't secure becuase your security sucks, you cry and expect enforcement... If companies were held responsible (like Macromedia) this all would be moot.. really... using the excuse about speed and complexity and one time keys per item seems like a good argument, but in the name of security we take guns away, enforce drug laws, sue everyone, etc. in the real world. Perhaps we should force Macromedia to make it secure or when someone borrows your code, file suit against Macromedia for not providing a secure system. Heck in my industry we have HIPAA regulations.. go read those and weep.. we have to work around security and make best attempt and implement policy out the wahzoo in case of breech or disclosure... Arbitrary enforcement... wide open punishment for violations... -paris [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:28:22 -0400 Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation So, by your logic, if I use weak encryption, then I shouldn't try to stop people from abusing it? Therefore, I shouldn't press charges against a criminal if I don't use a strong lock? I may be stupid for not using a good lock, but that doesn't mean I should get robbed. Raymond Camden -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation COmpanies that try to eradicate web items they do not like should be put on a list and publically humiliated... It is just such a dumb solution and keep those fancy expensive lawyers busY making money and the courts clogged with useless mounds of paperwork... change the encryption, framework it, or drop it... -paris ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I believe his first point speaks against companies which put out badly designed or implemented products and then use lawyers and money to stop others from exposing the problems. This would be similar to Ford and Firestone trying to get a gag order out so that no one could talk about their tire defects. I think the core problem in this discussion is that the Macromedia acolytes are taking the corporate stance. This stance seems to be that Allaire/Macromedia has determined for it's customers that those customers don't have any reason, that it agrees with, to decrypt ColdFusion templates and that if, perchance they do have a reason that Macromedia, in its infinite wisdom, hasn't considered or given credit to, then those customers shouldn't have any problem waiting for, and paying for, tech support. I am truly amazed at the arrogance portrayed by Macromedia's employees in arguing this point, first by arguing it as if the only reason you'd need to decrypt something is for illegal gain, and secondly by not recognizing and admitting that a better system needs to be put in place. To try to spin this on your customers and villainize them is just wrong. The dark side is a tempting mistress, no? Steve -Original Message- From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation So, by your logic, if I use weak encryption, then I shouldn't try to stop people from abusing it? Therefore, I shouldn't press charges against a criminal if I don't use a strong lock? I may be stupid for not using a good lock, but that doesn't mean I should get robbed. Raymond Camden -Original Message- From: Paris Lundis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation COmpanies that try to eradicate web items they do not like should be put on a list and publically humiliated... It is just such a dumb solution and keep those fancy expensive lawyers busY making money and the courts clogged with useless mounds of paperwork... change the encryption, framework it, or drop it... -paris ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
... i'm talking about studying the code, how they made it work, etc, etcthen developing your own application... Isn't that's called reverse engineering. -Original Message- From: Kevin Mansel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:44 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Well i'm not talking about plagerism, i'm talking about studying the code, how they made it work, etc, etcthen developing your own application, that is how a lot of us learned from bookes that we've bought, starting out with cold fusion, I am sure most of us put in a few bits of code mentioned in forta's books, and tried it out, then took off with it right? That is what my majority point is. kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Top-Link Tech (John Ceci) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:40 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation But Kevin that book has been published and the author has made the decision to give that code away with the COST of the book...or the Teacher has been PAID by the school to develop the program as a learning tool...See the general thread there...MONEY changing hands... If you just pluck a tag off the tag gallery, decrypt it and then use the code, in whole or part, you are breaking the law... John -Original Message- From: Kevin Mansel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Anyone with any knowledge of using a search engine can find that site. I don't think it was that big of deal personally. A popular way to learn how to code is to see other people's code. That is how you learn in school, the teacher shows you code, you get a book, then you take it to the next level to create something with the tools you learn from studying that code. just my .02 -kev ~ Kevin Mansel Web Developer Fox Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] DL : 425-649-1321 C : 425-346-7221 -Original Message- From: Robert Long [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I think it was VERY unprofessional of those individuals that posted a link directly to the utility. I have no idea how many people are on this list, but now all of them have knowledge of that site. Why don't you just upload a copy of your CFAS cd and post a link to that too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:50 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Saying this as Michael Dinowitz, yes. The decrypt utility is illegal according to the MM licensing contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm saying this as Ray Camden, not Ray Camden of Macromedia, but isn't use of this decryptor illegal? Should we so casually discuss a piece of a software that is probably illegal to use? Also, in general, unless you encrypt your OWN files, you should not be decrypting other people's templates. If you _do_ encrypt your files, you can contact Tech support for help. Therefore, there is no need for this software. Am I wrong here? And let's not discuss wether it's right or wrong, I'm talking about legality. === Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN : 3679482 My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. - Yoda -Original Message- From: Jones, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:37 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation http://shrewm.net/cfd/ -Original Message- From: Alii Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation That website is gone http://shroom.dv8.org/cfd/ I was looking for it recently and it has been down. Is there another? Rich ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
There is a very grey line here .. maybe. Take this real life example: We had a father/son team that worked for my company. The father was one of the ones who helped start the company and greatly responisble for making it successful durring its startup phase. As the company grew, the ideas about how it should continue differed between one of the founders and the father. The father eventually left on somewhat 'bad' terms. Soon after, his son also left the company .. also on somewhat bad terms. The father joined a company that made similar, but not competing products. Soon after, that company decided to make a competing product. Luckily, the father knew the industry, but not how the product was made. Unfortunately, the son worked on the product itself and knew a fair bit about how it worked. The son had some copies of the compiled code. He and a buddy managed to reverse engineer it and (as far as we know), deliver the source code to the competing company so they could learn how the program worked. I'm sure the intent was to learn how we did things and, ahem, build on those ideas. Was this just leanring from another developer to learn how to dome something better, or, was it plain code theft. Is there a difference in this case (they were using a different language)?Luckily, they weren't too bright and wasted time building a product for a market that was already at least 50% saturated (a lot for market share among government agencies ;), so they weren't much of a threat .. but still Now .. most would certainly agree that this is just flat out wrong, ethicly as well as legaly, but the grey area is .. how wrong is it, ethicly, to reverse engineer a program to learn how another developer accomplished something so that a particular way of doing things can be learned to build a non competing product? What about just for personal knowledge? It's starting to look like, it's just how you look at it ;) Todd - Original Message - From: Kevin Mansel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 4:44 PM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Well i'm not talking about plagerism, i'm talking about studying the code, how they made it work, etc, etcthen developing your own application, that is how a lot of us learned from bookes that we've bought, starting out with cold fusion, I am sure most of us put in a few bits of code mentioned in forta's books, and tried it out, then took off with it right? That is what my majority point is. kev ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
-Original Message- From: Nick McClure [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:58 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation I would agree with Raymond. Just because you didn't buy the product does not mean the code is not copyrighted. Many people produce freeware products. That means you are free to use the product that you are provided. Decrypting/Reverse engineering gives you something you were not originally given. Did you read the license agreement that you agreed to when you downloaded those tags. I bet they said Decrypting/Reverse engineering is against the license agreement. And doing so is not only unethical but illegal. Not matter if you paid for it, were given it, or the author paid you to take it. I will venture to guess that most developers haven't read the license that they agree to when they upload or download code to/from the DevX. As noted on the Allaire submission form to upload content to the DevX, Note: All contributed components are downloadable only after acceptance of the Allaire® Developer's Exchange Software License Agreement. Please review the license before uploading your component. I encourage everyone to read and _try_ to understand the nuances contained within said document. There are a couple of snippets from the license that I'd like to bring up, as they _seem_ relevant: ... snip NON-ALLAIRE SOFTWARE COMPONENTS AVAILABLE THROUGH THE DEVELOPERS EXCHANGE ARE SUBJECT TO THE SPECIFIC LICENSE CONDITIONS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE AUTHORS, AND ARE ADDITIONALLY SUBJECT TO THE BOTH THE LIABILITY AND WARRANTY LIMITATIONS OF THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT. /snip ... snip Not Commercial Software THE SOFTWARE COMPONENTS SUBJECT TO THIS AGREEMENT ARE NOT COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE. THEY ARE NOT COVERED BY ANY OTHER WARRANTY CONTAINED IN ANY OTHER LICENSE AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND ALLAIRE. ALLAIRE HAS PERFORMED NO QUALITY ASSURANCE TESTING AND WILL NOT MAINTAIN AND SUPPORT ANY SOFTWARE COMPONENTS UNLESS OTHERWISE EXPLICITLY INDICATED ON THE ALLAIRE DEVELOPERS EXCHANGE IN REFERENCE TO SPECIFIC SOFTWARE COMPONENTS. /snip ... snip YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS LIMITED LICENSE APPLIES ONLY TO SOFTWARE COMPONENTS SUBMITTED TO THE DEVELOPERS EXCHANGE BY ALLAIRE CORPORATION. ALLAIRE GRANTS YOU NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER IN ANY SOFTWARE COMPONENTS SUBMITTED BY ANY PERSON OR PARTY OTHER THAN ALLAIRE. ANY LICENSE TERMS FOR SUCH SOFTWARE COMPONENTS WILL BE CONTAINED IN THE SOFTWARE COMPONENTS THEMSELVES, AND YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING, UNDERSTANDING AND COMPLYING WITH ANY SUCH LICENSE TERMS. THE INCLUSION OF SUCH THIRD-PARTY SOFTWARE COMPONENTS DOES NOT IMPLY AN ENDORSEMENT OR RECOMMENDATION OF SUCH SOFTWARE COMPONENTS. /snip ... It seems like snippet #1 says that components uploaded to the DevX by non-Allaire entities are only subject to the liability and warranty agreements from Allaire. Both of those sections seem to state that Allaire doesn't provide any liability assurance or warranty. That leaves us with the part that says, ALLAIRE GRANTS YOU NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER IN ANY SOFTWARE COMPONENTS SUBMITTED BY ANY PERSON OR PARTY OTHER THAN ALLAIRE. ANY LICENSE TERMS FOR SUCH SOFTWARE COMPONENTS WILL BE CONTAINED IN THE SOFTWARE COMPONENTS THEMSELVES, AND YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING, UNDERSTANDING AND COMPLYING WITH ANY SUCH LICENSE TERMS. So, if a third-party component isn't covered by any Allaire license, and the third-party who uploads the component to the DevX doesn't include a license, then it would seem that the software is available for download with none of Allaire's license restrictions. For most, I would guess that this is a moot point, they never had any intention to license the snippet of code anyway, maybe they just wanted to share, but, for those who are concerned this point may warrant closer scrutiny. If my understanding is skewed by legalese then maybe the license should be made clearer. This doesn't remove the responsibility of the user to read or comply with the license as it applies to them but, if the license in effect disqualifies itself then they should be aware of that too. Steve ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Well, I believe the current federal guidelines indicate a STATUTORY $100K per incident fine for the type of copyright infringement you are describing. Time to find an attorney. -S -Original Message- From: Todd Ashworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation There is a very grey line here .. maybe. Take this real life example: We had a father/son team that worked for my company. The father was one of the ones who helped start the company and greatly responisble for making it successful durring its startup phase. As the company grew, the ideas about how it should continue differed between one of the founders and the father. The father eventually left on somewhat 'bad' terms. Soon after, his son also left the company .. also on somewhat bad terms. The father joined a company that made similar, but not competing products. Soon after, that company decided to make a competing product. Luckily, the father knew the industry, but not how the product was made. Unfortunately, the son worked on the product itself and knew a fair bit about how it worked. The son had some copies of the compiled code. He and a buddy managed to reverse engineer it and (as far as we know), deliver the source code to the competing company so they could learn how the program worked. I'm sure the intent was to learn how we did things and, ahem, build on those ideas. Was this just leanring from another developer to learn how to dome something better, or, was it plain code theft. Is there a difference in this case (they were using a different language)?Luckily, they weren't too bright and wasted time building a product for a market that was already at least 50% saturated (a lot for market share among government agencies ;), so they weren't much of a threat .. but still Now .. most would certainly agree that this is just flat out wrong, ethicly as well as legaly, but the grey area is .. how wrong is it, ethicly, to reverse engineer a program to learn how another developer accomplished something so that a particular way of doing things can be learned to build a non competing product? What about just for personal knowledge? It's starting to look like, it's just how you look at it ;) Todd - Original Message - From: Kevin Mansel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 4:44 PM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Well i'm not talking about plagerism, i'm talking about studying the code, how they made it work, etc, etcthen developing your own application, that is how a lot of us learned from bookes that we've bought, starting out with cold fusion, I am sure most of us put in a few bits of code mentioned in forta's books, and tried it out, then took off with it right? That is what my majority point is. kev ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Reverse engineering typically refers to taking a known result and trying to derive how that result was achieved within known bounds. For example, if you wanted to reverse engineer Microsoft's .DOC format you would look at the format of a saved Word document and try to come up with a way to reliably produce compatible results without being able to see the source code for Word. By reading source you have the blueprints, so no reversal is needed. An important point is that you can create similar functionality without infringing on copyrighted material. To protect against similar functionality you must turn to the patent process, not copyright. I can paint Mona Lisa knock-offs all day long if I don't try to sell them as original da Vinci's or market them as Mona Lisa because that is protected by copyright. Also, I could sell a word processing program that reads and writes .DOC format as long as I didn't market it as Word, that's trademark law. This assumes that the DCMA hasn't made this illegal. It's also important for those in the US to realize that much of world doesn't have the same laws regarding reverse engineering and/or copyright of ideas. Many people think our laws are ludicrous and impede the growth of knowledge, and hence the strength of the country. Steve -Original Message- From: Robert Long [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:12 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation ... i'm talking about studying the code, how they made it work, etc, etcthen developing your own application... Isn't that's called reverse engineering. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
Preface: The you in this reply doesn't mean Todd Ashworth. ;) As I mentioned in another post, copyright and reverse engineering law are very different from ours in many parts of the world. In most cases it is more lenient and does not prevent reverse engineering. This is not to be mistaken with stealing source and calling it your own. I am amused by the frequency with which postings to this thread have been peppered with the word ethics. It seems to me that in these cases ethical is used as a stand-in for legal in the US. The term that many have used liberally to impose some sense of moral gravity on this issue is completely off base if you're not in the US. Ethics is a set of moral principles or values. If you live in a country where reverse engineering is legal then there is no moral dilemma and a scale of ethical correctness doesn't apply. What you're asking is, how unethical does an individual feel it is to break the law. I think most would answer that it depends on the law in question. We've all sped on the road, many over-value donations to get a tax break, and we've all picked a quarter up off the ground without contemplating our inner righteousness. A great example is gambling. It's illegal in most states, but in Nevada it isn't, nor is it illegal if you're onboard a licensed vessel afloat on the Mississippi River. Does this mean that all casino or gambling boat operators are immoral and ethically corrupt? Of course not, even though what they do is illegal in most parts of the country. If you live in a place where gambling is illegal but travel to one where it isn't and gamble are you acting immorally or unethically? Does traveling 5 feet into a river really change what you're doing? No it doesn't. So ethics and morals seem to have little to do with legal law even though they are sometimes the catalyst for laws. If you feel that legality == morality then this line of reasoning isn't for you. Steve -Original Message- From: Todd Ashworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation There is a very grey line here .. maybe. Take this real life example: We had a father/son team that worked for my company. The father was one of the ones who helped start the company and greatly responisble for making it successful durring its startup phase. As the company grew, the ideas about how it should continue differed between one of the founders and the father. The father eventually left on somewhat 'bad' terms. Soon after, his son also left the company .. also on somewhat bad terms. The father joined a company that made similar, but not competing products. Soon after, that company decided to make a competing product. Luckily, the father knew the industry, but not how the product was made. Unfortunately, the son worked on the product itself and knew a fair bit about how it worked. The son had some copies of the compiled code. He and a buddy managed to reverse engineer it and (as far as we know), deliver the source code to the competing company so they could learn how the program worked. I'm sure the intent was to learn how we did things and, ahem, build on those ideas. Was this just leanring from another developer to learn how to dome something better, or, was it plain code theft. Is there a difference in this case (they were using a different language)?Luckily, they weren't too bright and wasted time building a product for a market that was already at least 50% saturated (a lot for market share among government agencies ;), so they weren't much of a threat .. but still Now .. most would certainly agree that this is just flat out wrong, ethicly as well as legaly, but the grey area is .. how wrong is it, ethicly, to reverse engineer a program to learn how another developer accomplished something so that a particular way of doing things can be learned to build a non competing product? What about just for personal knowledge? It's starting to look like, it's just how you look at it ;) Todd ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
We consulted one .. Unfortunately, while we *can* prove this, through at least one E-mail, we legaly intercepted, we didn't have the time or the finances to persue the matter, since we were actively engaging the Texas Department on Aging in major contract negotiations and didn't have the resources to spare. Also, the son was not an employee of the company in question, so collecting damages from him, personaly, would be difficult at best. In short, the whole legal process would probably cost more than the damages that we would be awarded. Better to see them waste their time and money and kill their own chances of getting in on the market than to take them to court :) Todd - Original Message - From: Steve Drucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:07 PM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Well, I believe the current federal guidelines indicate a STATUTORY $100K per incident fine for the type of copyright infringement you are describing. Time to find an attorney. -S ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
OK lets get a grip: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation
I never figured I would start a firestorm about this... I am trying to dynamically create a DSN and know for a fact that there are templates in the CF administrator to do so. Via CFHTTP, I figured I had it solved, but I keep getting busted by the login for the Administrator, so I was going to figure out why it is puking by looking at the encryptrd files, and was going t yak about it at the CFUG meeting. I was NOT going to mention that I used the decryptor, but simply that it can be done with existing templates provided you know what to pass. However, I will likely avoid doing so as I don't want the whole CF community having a cow over this. James -Original Message- From: Todd Ashworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: June 8, 2001 10:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation We consulted one .. Unfortunately, while we *can* prove this, through at least one E-mail, we legaly intercepted, we didn't have the time or the finances to persue the matter, since we were actively engaging the Texas Department on Aging in major contract negotiations and didn't have the resources to spare. Also, the son was not an employee of the company in question, so collecting damages from him, personaly, would be difficult at best. In short, the whole legal process would probably cost more than the damages that we would be awarded. Better to see them waste their time and money and kill their own chances of getting in on the market than to take them to court :) Todd - Original Message - From: Steve Drucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:07 PM Subject: RE: Need decryptor tag for CFUG presentation Well, I believe the current federal guidelines indicate a STATUTORY $100K per incident fine for the type of copyright infringement you are describing. Time to find an attorney. -S ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
