RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
And what makes Java less proprietary than C++? Last I heard, Sun pulled it from the standards committee. Suggesting that Java would be opened up, was one maneuver in Sun's marketing campaign to regain market share lost to Open Source alternatives to their products: http://www.wired.com/news/topstories/0,1287,19413,00.html In fact, if the language that your application server was written in had anything to do with the "openness" of the application server, being written in C++ would make ColdFusion far more open. But, of course, the language the server is written in has little to nothing to do with the openness of the server itself. Benjamin S. Rogers Web Developer, c4.net voice: (508) 240-0051 fax: (508) 240-0057 -Original Message- From: DeVoil, Nick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 4:59 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe Well this is a completely subjective view but my perception is that CF is considered quite a hot technology here in the UK. I don't know, but I believe the relative strength of CF versus ASP is stronger in the US than in Europe because a lot of people in the US started building web apps before ASP came out or was usable. By the time the UK got started, ASP was a viable option, and no-one ever got fired for buying Microsoft products, as they used to say of IBM. Allaire's reputation for quality doesn't seem to be perfect, but then neither is Microsoft's. Maybe PHP is popular in Europe because it was invented here & is largely developed here. But I think decent-sized organisations here tend to steer clear of open source - Apache being something of an exception. They don't trust it. They also like standards. I think that's CF's weakest point from a marketing point of view is that it's seen as a proprietary, closed solution. I believe CF's move to Java will be a big help in this respect. I worked for one company that moved from PHP to Java because they saw Java as a standard. When they find out how complicated Java systems can be, maybe they'll be in the market for a rapid web app development tool based on the Java platform Nick -Original Message- From: Allan Pichler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Slightly OT: CF in Europe Even though we just touched the subject in another thread i'd like to start a new one where we "air" our thoughts on the future of CF in Europe since it seems like CF is a "failure" so far over there! The reason being that i'm probably moving back to Europe soon and i would really hate to switch over to ASP/PHP. Allan Pichler Machine Dreams Inc. ** Information in this email is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You should not otherwise copy it, retransmit it or use or disclose its contents to anyone. Thank you for your co-operation. ** ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
> > One thing though...there is a severe lack of GOOD CF developers > in the UK. > It's amazing the number of people that attempt to blag it. If I > interview, > I use a simple questionaire that I walk through with the > potential...sometimes it really is quite embarrassing. I have to agree with this. There are lots and lots and lots of developers who try to blag it. I have come across many of them and worked for some. I have worked with developers who have come from HTML (and maybe a little Javascript), and think that doing the Allaire FastTrack to ColdFusion course (ie not the advanced course) means know ColdFusion back to front. WRONG!!! They also don't know anything about mailing lists and the community of developers which in the Unix/Linux (esp. OpenSource) world is understood and used to it's full potential. It really does amaze me sometimes how incredibly naive some people are! IMHO the most important thing is to know why you do something and what is happening in the background (something a *nix person would have a massive headstart on). An example would be the CFHTTP tag. Not understanding HTTP and it's little intricacies can catch out some normal programmers, but as CF is such an abstracted language (ie it simplifies everything) - sometimes to abstracted - some programmers can get caught out. Works well most of the time, but can be a right (insert favourite expletive here) to debug if you don't understand what's actually going on. Paul PS A potential developer questionnaire like that could well catch out a lot of people. PPS Most *nix people love to do everything from the ground up. I don't advocate this but I do think it is useful to be able to understand why things are done in certain ways. If it's already built, use that and modify it. Programmers who are keen to build programmes from the ground up all the time waste huge amounts of time (IMHO) however, it can be very useful in the long run. > > Adam > > -Original Message- > From: Paul Johnston [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:00 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject:RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe > > Lets put it this way. > > I have been doing web development work since coming out of the > University > of > Bath (for all you Americans, it's an old Roman City in England that has > Roman Bath's in it hence the name) not too many years ago. > > Since then I have done HTML then Perl, then CF. As far as I'm concerned > the > lack of penetration in CF means that there are not too many > developers out > there (although this is increasing). The jobs are there (if you look in > the > right places and are good enough) but such is the perceived > value of ASP in > the development market that you would find it easier to get an > ASP job (and > for that matter a PHP job if you have the skills). However the > financial > implications of this here are huge! > > Financially it's good to be a CF programmer in the UK - > especially a good > one. It's even better to be a Spectra programmer (doesn't really matter > how > good yet as long as you've done the course or have experience). > Don't be > put off that CF hasn't penetrated the market yet. I firmly > believe that it > could (no guarantees), but the worst thing that could happen is > that the CF > programmers move away from CF! > > Paul > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
I would agree with Paul here. Financially, CF is extremely lucrative in the UK with rates around 30% higher than ASP. The reasons are quite simply that ASP is more popular, but anybody that used to do VB now does ASP, so the market may be bigger, but so is the recruitment base. This has made ASP consultants cheaper to acquire. This is also a reason why people use ASP. Europe has been very MS orientated. If you are already developing using Visual Studio, you business might as well continue down that development path. What it doesn't recognise is that CF is inherently faster to develop for (so I have found) and provides a lot of functionality that you have to write/purchase yourself for ASP. Then again, try persuading business people to shell out for Spectra. Not easy...they cannot see the application development benefits. One thing though...there is a severe lack of GOOD CF developers in the UK. It's amazing the number of people that attempt to blag it. If I interview, I use a simple questionaire that I walk through with the potential...sometimes it really is quite embarrassing. Adam -Original Message- From: Paul Johnston [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe Lets put it this way. I have been doing web development work since coming out of the University of Bath (for all you Americans, it's an old Roman City in England that has Roman Bath's in it hence the name) not too many years ago. Since then I have done HTML then Perl, then CF. As far as I'm concerned the lack of penetration in CF means that there are not too many developers out there (although this is increasing). The jobs are there (if you look in the right places and are good enough) but such is the perceived value of ASP in the development market that you would find it easier to get an ASP job (and for that matter a PHP job if you have the skills). However the financial implications of this here are huge! Financially it's good to be a CF programmer in the UK - especially a good one. It's even better to be a Spectra programmer (doesn't really matter how good yet as long as you've done the course or have experience). Don't be put off that CF hasn't penetrated the market yet. I firmly believe that it could (no guarantees), but the worst thing that could happen is that the CF programmers move away from CF! Paul ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
>Well this is a completely subjective view but my perception is that >CF is considered quite a hot technology here in the UK. > >I don't know, but I believe the relative strength of CF versus ASP >is stronger in the US than in Europe because a lot of people in the US >started building web apps before ASP came out or was usable. The timing is certainly one contribution, but there are a lot more "cowboys" and "entpreneurs" in the USA who don't insist on buying only "safe" products. In Europe, the entire culture, across countries, is a bureaucratic, standardized, politicized mentality, seeking at all costs (extremely high, eg, the EC machinery of fraud and waster) to avoid the tiniest risk or non-compliance, and if the product is not 100% "safe" (ie, it's not an MS product for an MS strategic platform), the product, eg CF, is seen as too risky. Is this a conscious orientation? No of course not. It's like asking fish is they are conscious if water. Len http://BIND8NT.MEIway.com : Binary for ISC BIND 8.2.3 T9B for NT4 & W2K http://IMGate.MEIway.com : Build free, hi-perf, anti-spam mail gateways ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
Lets put it this way. I have been doing web development work since coming out of the University of Bath (for all you Americans, it's an old Roman City in England that has Roman Bath's in it hence the name) not too many years ago. Since then I have done HTML then Perl, then CF. As far as I'm concerned the lack of penetration in CF means that there are not too many developers out there (although this is increasing). The jobs are there (if you look in the right places and are good enough) but such is the perceived value of ASP in the development market that you would find it easier to get an ASP job (and for that matter a PHP job if you have the skills). However the financial implications of this here are huge! Financially it's good to be a CF programmer in the UK - especially a good one. It's even better to be a Spectra programmer (doesn't really matter how good yet as long as you've done the course or have experience). Don't be put off that CF hasn't penetrated the market yet. I firmly believe that it could (no guarantees), but the worst thing that could happen is that the CF programmers move away from CF! Paul ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
Well this is a completely subjective view but my perception is that CF is considered quite a hot technology here in the UK. I don't know, but I believe the relative strength of CF versus ASP is stronger in the US than in Europe because a lot of people in the US started building web apps before ASP came out or was usable. By the time the UK got started, ASP was a viable option, and no-one ever got fired for buying Microsoft products, as they used to say of IBM. Allaire's reputation for quality doesn't seem to be perfect, but then neither is Microsoft's. Maybe PHP is popular in Europe because it was invented here & is largely developed here. But I think decent-sized organisations here tend to steer clear of open source - Apache being something of an exception. They don't trust it. They also like standards. I think that's CF's weakest point from a marketing point of view is that it's seen as a proprietary, closed solution. I believe CF's move to Java will be a big help in this respect. I worked for one company that moved from PHP to Java because they saw Java as a standard. When they find out how complicated Java systems can be, maybe they'll be in the market for a rapid web app development tool based on the Java platform Nick -Original Message- From: Allan Pichler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 7:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Slightly OT: CF in Europe Even though we just touched the subject in another thread i'd like to start a new one where we "air" our thoughts on the future of CF in Europe since it seems like CF is a "failure" so far over there! The reason being that i'm probably moving back to Europe soon and i would really hate to switch over to ASP/PHP. Allan Pichler Machine Dreams Inc. ** Information in this email is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You should not otherwise copy it, retransmit it or use or disclose its contents to anyone. Thank you for your co-operation. ** ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
> Even though we just touched the subject in another thread i'd > like to start > a new one where we "air" our thoughts on the future of CF in > Europe since it > seems like CF is a "failure" so far over there! > > The reason being that i'm probably moving back to Europe soon and i would > really hate to switch over to ASP/PHP. We're talking to one of our clients about expanding into their European operation using a CF platform - it's only what each company happens to choose - this client dropped an ASP product for our CF one... Philip Arnold Director Certified ColdFusion Developer ASP Multimedia Limited T: +44 (0)20 8680 1133 "Websites for the real world" ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. ** ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
> Even though we just touched the subject in another thread i'd like to start > a new one where we "air" our thoughts on the future of CF in Europe since it > seems like CF is a "failure" so far over there! I'm a developer in London, and have found it hard to find CF jobs (OK, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I doubt it). PHP, as one company told me last week, is "far far better and more stable, not to mention scalable, than CF will ever be." Well, I couldn't really beleive that. I used to code in PHP, and find Cold Fusion so much more powerful. And scalable. Will ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Slightly OT: CF in Europe
Ironic. I just interviewed a developer form Europe that moved here and is having a difficult time finding "Magic" work. Product from Israel that doesn't have much penetration here. We're hoping to "show him the light" of CF. Regards, Neil ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
