Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
From: "Timm Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 0.4 will be getting rid of inform.php and replacing it with a more scaleable > in-freenet alternative. You will need the address of at least one node that > you trust before you can enter the network (just as you need the address of a > news server before you can post on USENET). Note that this may not appear in > the first version. Actually... 0.4 doesn't have an announcement protocol yet so I'm not sure if it'll be free from inform for some time. > - -- > Timm Murray > > . . . example of a mobius. This sentence is an example of a mobius. This > sentence is an . . . -Mathew ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
It's at http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~karger/chord.ps On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:53:59AM +0200, Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: > On Wednesday 30 May 2001 03:35, you wrote: > > Did you see the Chord paper? It's in the Freehaven docs... I can send you > > a copy if you can't find it. > > Can you do it, please? > > Thank you very much!! :) > > > ___ > Chat mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat -- Dev Random Fingerprint: 3ABC FCEF 1BCE 4528 E4FD 15EB 173A 76D2 6959 DAF1 PGP signature
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 30 May 2001 12:44, Aaron P Ingebrigtsen said: > Freenet uses an inform server to inform nodes about each other. This > should be replaced by something that can't be attacked, but, I don't know > what. There is an option to turn off inform read/write in the settings > for freenet, and I think you can tell it to look at a file full of node > addresses. 0.4 will be getting rid of inform.php and replacing it with a more scaleable in-freenet alternative. You will need the address of at least one node that you trust before you can enter the network (just as you need the address of a news server before you can post on USENET). Note that this may not appear in the first version. - -- Timm Murray . . . example of a mobius. This sentence is an example of a mobius. This sentence is an . . . -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7Fm9n9FVoObiUQx8RAjdhAKCamvCAIOPbFPnSbEVvxKM6ZQmWsgCfQc7T bBchbRnbpUJLkmxCwoNls4c= =6hmn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:44:12AM -0700, Aaron P Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Freenet uses an inform server to inform nodes about each other. This > should be replaced by something that can't be attacked, but, I don't know > what. There is an option to turn off inform read/write in the settings > for freenet, and I think you can tell it to look at a file full of node > addresses. You can learn about other nodes by simply making requests. Every request your node handles discovers yet another node. That's why Freenet is an "adaptive network." The tricky part is: how do you let other nodes know that you exist? That's the point of the 0.4 node announcement protocol. > Also, freenet depends upon people knowing about existing keys, and > currently everyone is useing keyservers such as Steve's Key Index > which you can put your keys on and browse other keys. I sure hope > freenet's dependance on such centralized servers is removed some time > in the near future. Searching demands a network of trust--otherwise you get malicious search results. Freenet is essentially trustless. Sorry. "Centralized" keyindexes within Freenet are not harmful. The problem here is general: anonymous submissions are not practical, any way you look at it. And what use is a keyindex if nobody can submit a URI to it? We need a way to (a) verify that a person is not evil, in a scalable and unintrusive fashion, and (b) prohibit evil people from posting to a keyindex. We have neither. Any suggestions? -- "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
Freenet uses an inform server to inform nodes about each other. This should be replaced by something that can't be attacked, but, I don't know what. There is an option to turn off inform read/write in the settings for freenet, and I think you can tell it to look at a file full of node addresses. Also, freenet depends upon people knowing about existing keys, and currently everyone is useing keyservers such as Steve's Key Index which you can put your keys on and browse other keys. I sure hope freenet's dependance on such centralized servers is removed some time in the near future. On Tue, 29 May 2001 10:08:57 +0200 "Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hi! > > On Tuesday 29 May 2001 09:57, you wrote: > > > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When > a node > > > > starts it registers with the inform server. > > > > > > I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer > network. > > > > Fascinates me that no one has yet tried to DMCA the Freenet inform > server > > ;} > > Erm... I think I must ilustrate myself before use my keyboard... Is > there in > FreeNet something as a centralized server?? So please, can you give > me some > URL for my own information? > > > David > > Thanks by the light, David. > > > ___ > Chat mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:53:59AM +0200, Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: > On Wednesday 30 May 2001 03:35, you wrote: > > Did you see the Chord paper? It's in the Freehaven docs... I can send you > > a copy if you can't find it. > > Can you do it, please? > > Thank you very much!! :) It's at http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~karger/chord.ps. Also see the Plaxton paper at http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/plaxton/ps/1997/spaa.ps. They're both very complex compared to my little experiment (and I'm now hacking my way through the encryption and filesplitting in the client proxy). A word on Anarcast scalability: every node knows every other node. They retrieve the node list from the inform server, and each address is (of course) 4 bytes. Then they SHA hash them (now 20 bytes per node) and put them in a tree. The inform server will be the bottleneck here--100 kilobyte transfers will be required for a 25,000 node network. (And 500K+ of node memory.) I consider this acceptable. File splitting is still up in the air. Chunks should be pretty small, maybe 64K. I'm not yet sure what scheme I will use to generate the check blocks. Ah well -- "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Wednesday 30 May 2001 03:35, you wrote: > Did you see the Chord paper? It's in the Freehaven docs... I can send you > a copy if you can't find it. Can you do it, please? Thank you very much!! :) ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
Did you see the Chord paper? It's in the Freehaven docs... I can send you a copy if you can't find it. On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 08:09:02AM -0400, Mark J. Roberts wrote: > On Tue, 29 May 2001, Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: > > > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node > > > starts it registers with the inform server. > > > > I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer network. > > Yeah, it's not very cool. But running an inform server that simply returns > a list of IPs is not the same as processing searches for music. > > And node announcement is not easy. > > > -- > "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject > only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place > in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > Chat mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat -- Dev Random Fingerprint: 3ABC FCEF 1BCE 4528 E4FD 15EB 173A 76D2 6959 DAF1 PGP signature
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 May 2001 02:46, Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso said: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Mark, how do you do? > > On Monday 28 May 2001 21:05, you wrote: > > So I was bored and I came up with a simple p2p network idea. Here it is. > > > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node > > starts it registers with the inform server. > > I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer network. Not true, if it's for one specific task and no more. Thats what Mark is doing here. His inform server works just like the inform.php system in the current Freenet. Mark's not designing this network for anonymity in mind, just simplicity. After all, Napster has a central server. So does MojoNation, IIRC. When I was first talking to Mark about it on IRC, I was hoping it could be used as a replacement for Windows networking or NFS or whatever else is used for file sharing. Mark thought that was boaring, but it would have helped me out a lot at my last job. - -- Timm Murray . . . example of a mobious. This sentance is an example of a mobious. This sentance is an . . . -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7E6589FVoObiUQx8RAs/fAKC197qI3HTtqq358zWev6gLIjGqxwCgwrJq U/rO/ASgQYEblx7QG41M9Dk= =pMxr -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 May 2001 04:02, David McNab said: > > Erm... I think I must ilustrate myself before use my keyboard... Is there > > in > > > FreeNet something as a centralized server?? So please, can you give me > > some > > > URL for my own information? > > The basic problem is when a Freenet node comes online, how does it know > where the other nodes are? > > This mode must use 'out of band' - non-freenet - means of finding at least > one other Freenet node. > > Presently, Freenet is using a temporary scheme of 'discovering' other > nodes - it calls up a page on a web server, whose address is hardwired into > the node. That page lists a small number of other nodes' IP addresses, > selected at random from the nodes presently online > > The vulnerability of this scheme is certainly not news. But as I > understand, plans are in place to eliminate all dependence on this central > server discovery process. Yes, through a much more scalable node announcement system. You'll still need to know the address of one node, though, just as you need the address of single news server before you can post to USENET. - -- Timm Murray . . . example of a mobious. This sentance is an example of a mobious. This sentance is an . . . -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7E7Fm9FVoObiUQx8RApaCAJ0Weped3G/c3o023EyrFweCnOMuQQCeNQ+b BwgIezeskGqwiaqT5apYzC8= =lTok -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Tue, 29 May 2001, Timm Murray wrote: > > I will test it, but I would like it better if such a thing were > > implemented in freenet. > > That wasn't the point. This is ment to be a simple network that can be > hacked together in an afternoon or two. Freenet is really complicated (just > look at Whiterose development) and doesn't serve that goal well. Whiterose is way cleaner than Fred. Anyway I have the Anarcast server done (methinks) and the inform server is almost done. Still haven't written the client proxy Anyone have a box I can run the inform server on? -- "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 May 2001 03:04, Aaron P Ingebrigtsen said: <> > I will test it, but I would like it better if such a thing were > implemented in freenet. That wasn't the point. This is ment to be a simple network that can be hacked together in an afternoon or two. Freenet is really complicated (just look at Whiterose development) and doesn't serve that goal well. - -- Timm Murray . . . example of a mobious. This sentance is an example of a mobious. This sentance is an . . . -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7E7II9FVoObiUQx8RAs+jAKC7XF+CAKQYUxYEzoz4BtTp9asexgCgnEiU SvdCOSl2WajitekFU628gvw= =B2wZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Tue, 29 May 2001, Aaron P Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > Is anyone interested in testing this? It's not as magical as > > > Freenet, which means it stands a good chance of actually working. > > I will test it, but I would like it better if such a thing were > implemented in freenet. You mean the splitfile part? We're doing that in 0.4. -- "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Tue, 29 May 2001, Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso wrote: > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node > > starts it registers with the inform server. > > I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer network. Yeah, it's not very cool. But running an inform server that simply returns a list of IPs is not the same as processing searches for music. And node announcement is not easy. -- "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 29 May 2001 11:02, you wrote: > > Erm... I think I must ilustrate myself before use my keyboard... Is there > > in > > > FreeNet something as a centralized server?? So please, can you give me > > some > > > URL for my own information? > > The basic problem is when a Freenet node comes online, how does it know > where the other nodes are? > > This mode must use 'out of band' - non-freenet - means of finding at least > one other Freenet node. I know, this was the first question I sent to this list :D > Presently, Freenet is using a temporary scheme of 'discovering' other > nodes - it calls up a page on a web server, whose address is hardwired into > the node. That page lists a small number of other nodes' IP addresses, > selected at random from the nodes presently online > > The vulnerability of this scheme is certainly not news. But as I > understand, plans are in place to eliminate all dependence on this central > server discovery process. Yes, I've think about this before but solution to this problem seems to be hard indeed... > David Thanks a lot again, David. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsTZ2QACgkQdcZSl+4pW24NPwCeM08i1dGkN8bRaiC7kXIQ/Szo lLwAmwZFt3S5gQeBb8z0MeYzfpW0yTry =Otok -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
> Erm... I think I must ilustrate myself before use my keyboard... Is there in > FreeNet something as a centralized server?? So please, can you give me some > URL for my own information? The basic problem is when a Freenet node comes online, how does it know where the other nodes are? This mode must use 'out of band' - non-freenet - means of finding at least one other Freenet node. Presently, Freenet is using a temporary scheme of 'discovering' other nodes - it calls up a page on a web server, whose address is hardwired into the node. That page lists a small number of other nodes' IP addresses, selected at random from the nodes presently online The vulnerability of this scheme is certainly not news. But as I understand, plans are in place to eliminate all dependence on this central server discovery process. David - Original Message - From: "Francisco M. Marzoa Alonso" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 20:08 Subject: Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast! > Hi! > > On Tuesday 29 May 2001 09:57, you wrote: > > > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node > > > > starts it registers with the inform server. > > > > > > I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer network. > > > > Fascinates me that no one has yet tried to DMCA the Freenet inform server > > ;} > > Erm... I think I must ilustrate myself before use my keyboard... Is there in > FreeNet something as a centralized server?? So please, can you give me some > URL for my own information? > > > David > > Thanks by the light, David. > > > ___ > Chat mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat > ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
Hi! On Tuesday 29 May 2001 09:57, you wrote: > > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node > > > starts it registers with the inform server. > > > > I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer network. > > Fascinates me that no one has yet tried to DMCA the Freenet inform server > ;} Erm... I think I must ilustrate myself before use my keyboard... Is there in FreeNet something as a centralized server?? So please, can you give me some URL for my own information? > David Thanks by the light, David. ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
On Mon, 28 May 2001 15:05:05 -0400 (EDT) "Mark J. Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > So I was bored and I came up with a simple p2p network idea. Here it > is. > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a > node > starts it registers with the inform server. > > Clients read the list of nodes from the inform server. They hash > the > address of each node. > > To insert a file: > > split file into small chunks > hash each chunk > insert each chunk to node with closest hash > insert redundant chunks > > To request a file, for each chunk hash, request it from the closest > node. > If any chunks fail, use the redundant chunks to reconstruct the > data, > and reinsert the missing chunks. > > I'm writing the server code today (around a select() call, btw) and > I'm > going to write a part-assembling client proxy as soon as possible. > > Is anyone interested in testing this? It's not as magical as > Freenet, > which means it stands a good chance of actually working. I will test it, but I would like it better if such a thing were implemented in freenet. GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
Re: [freenet-chat] Anarcast!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Mark, how do you do? On Monday 28 May 2001 21:05, you wrote: > So I was bored and I came up with a simple p2p network idea. Here it is. > > A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node > starts it registers with the inform server. I think a central server seems breaks the idea of a peer-to-peer network. Have a good one! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsTU8cACgkQdcZSl+4pW24m6ACffxfXMtqYzxe1q37P05xJX0Nq /tEAnj1A+G37LUYrPMW7A8nKW66DrtoW =56sU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
[freenet-chat] Anarcast!
So I was bored and I came up with a simple p2p network idea. Here it is. A network consists of nodes and a central inform server. When a node starts it registers with the inform server. Clients read the list of nodes from the inform server. They hash the address of each node. To insert a file: split file into small chunks hash each chunk insert each chunk to node with closest hash insert redundant chunks To request a file, for each chunk hash, request it from the closest node. If any chunks fail, use the redundant chunks to reconstruct the data, and reinsert the missing chunks. I'm writing the server code today (around a select() call, btw) and I'm going to write a part-assembling client proxy as soon as possible. Is anyone interested in testing this? It's not as magical as Freenet, which means it stands a good chance of actually working. -- "...it must be held that third-party electronic monitoring, subject only to the self-restraint of law enforcement officials, has no place in our society..." Mark Roberts | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Chat mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/chat
