Re: [Chicken-users] Re: SRFI 41
2009/5/7 Phil Bewig pbe...@gmail.com: ... I disagree. Streams and lists are not substitutable. Haskell conflates the two because everything in Haskell is lazy, so there is no difference. But that isn't true in Scheme. There is a reason for 'delay' 'force'. Scheme is eager but multi-paradigm and API designers shouldn't go out of the way to hide the fact. At least for the basics :-) Exactly. Haskell is pure and lazy all the way. Scheme is broader. Hi, I'm a bit surprised you mention delay and force for Scheme then say Haskell is pure and lazy all the way. You can have side effects in Haskell and you can force evaluation too. Cheers, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Wiki (early) spring cleaning!
2009/3/10 felix winkelmann bunny...@gmail.com: On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Peter Bex peter@xs4all.nl wrote: This has been implemented now. For example, you can visit http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/9p to view the Chicken 3 documentation for the 9p egg and http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/9p to view the Chicken 4 documentation for the egg. (Should probably mean ...eggref/4/9p for the latter) The quick (short URL) way to access an egg documentation has not entirely disappeared; it used to be http://chicken.wiki.br/9p but it has become http://chicken.wiki.br/egg/9p. 'egg' is simply a symlink in the wiki's root directory that points to eggref/N, with N the current latest release version. This would be the preferred way to link to the egg, if no particular version is intended. If there are some hiccups resulting from this move, please let me know about it. There are four egg documentations (at least, files containing the 'egg' tag) still left in the root. I'd appreciate it if their authors can have a look at them to see what should happen to them: gl-display growl svnwiki-atom svnwiki-javascript Thanks, Peter! Sorry, I haven't followed the discussion. I'm still on the mailing list but didn't use Chicken for a long time (and it will probably not happen soon). I'm the author of gl-display. Due to its state, I doubt anyone is interested in it beside me, so it could be deleted without problem for me. Cheers, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Open question on C binding style
2008/7/17 Jim Ursetto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) When there is a one to one mapping between a Scheme variable/constant a C variable/macro-constant/constant/enum should the Scheme symbol naming mirror the C naming? Should the C 'SOME_C_LIBRARY_MACCONST' identifier be mapped to the Scheme 'SOME_C_LIBRARY_MACCONST', or some Scheme'ish 'some-c-library-macconst'? 2) A C procedure binding name: 'some_c_func' - 'foreign-some-c-func' , 'some_c_func', 'C_some_c_func'? I prefer the scheme style for any exported API. I use the C style only for internal stuff which is basically on the bare metal (maybe using a similar schemely name for a nicer wrapper), or when I really want to warn the user this is lowlevel stuff. Example from socket egg, SO_REUSEADDR - so/reuseaddr (low-level integer value), and socket-reuse-address (high-level procedure). Here I did not happen to use SO_REUSEADDR verbatim, though that would have been acceptable. I just don't like shouting. In short, it depends on the egg. I'm making binding for GLEW (thus making bindings for OpenGL 2.1). I've chosen gl-vertex3f and GL-POINTS to map glVertex3f and GL_POINTS. If I write the C code, I would have gl_vertex3f instead (in C). I think GL-POINTS could be gl-points unambiguaously but maybe someone would like to write a gl-points as higher level procedure. And Felix chose gl:Vertex3f and gl:POINTS for the OpenGL bindings. I guess when I'll release the egg, I'll make the two options available. Cheers, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] chicken-setup
2008/7/15 Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Ivan Raikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The idea is basically to isolate all of the general procedures for e.g. installation and compilation, which once written would probably stay relatively unchanged, and only modify the frontend as chicken-setup policies evolve. We could also think about having different frontends, e.g. for use with different package building tools. This sounds good so far. So an egg could include a custom setup script, or else it would be auto-generated from the .meta file at installation time and therefore the egg is not required to provide it, right? On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:11 AM, Peter Bex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think this can be solved automatically (unless we want to recreate Autotools or CMake) so what is needed is a way to override or add to existing search paths by passing switches to chicken-setup, which it then can pass on to the compiler. Example: chicken-setup foo.egg -I /opt/foo/include -L /opt/foo/lib That could be a last-ditch way to solve problems but I would hope most users wouldn't need to do that for most eggs. Is there anything wrong with putting extra -I's and -L's in the meta file, with some possible guesses the egg developer can think of, where a particular library or include might be located? And chicken-setup could append the usual suspects automatically, like /usr/include, /usr/local/include etc. (library foo-wrapper (version 1.4) (make (foo-wrapper.scm) (compile -O2 -d0 -s foo-wrapper.scm -L/usr/lib/foo -L/usr/include/foo -ldl -lfoo -lchicken One problem I could think of is the case where the user has multiple versions of the same library, or is cross-compiling, in which case the default paths, or the paths suggested in the meta file, could be misleading. I guess he'd have to specify the -I and -L somehow, as you suggest. If the user does that, then chicken-setup would not include the default paths, or at least would put the provided paths first. Or somehow the meta file could suggest that libfoo.so might be located in a directory called foo-1.0, somewhere, and chicken-setup could expand that to -L/usr/lib/foo-1.0 -L/usr/local/lib/foo-1.0 etc. But the ability to cross-compile eggs is something I need to test soon; sounds like it's pretty cool already. I'm working on a bitbake recipe for chicken for OpenMoko (I'm still a newbie with that) and am wondering if it's going to be possible to get bitbake to compile all the eggs too, and make ipk's for all of them, hopefully either semi-automatically or I can come up with a way to generate recipes automatically from the meta files, or something. Hi, Another case is when we use pkg-config as in `pkg-config --cflags --libs pangocairo`. Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: Chicken-setup redesign (was: Re: [Chicken-users] Re: getopt, getopt_long?)
2008/7/14 felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Mario Domenech Goulart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, that would work. You would also need a file for foo-1, I suppose, if one wants to to load the highest minor version of 1.XXX. This will produce lots of little loader-files, though. Hmmm. I haven't thought about this level of granularity. I thought users would either specify the exact version they want or no version (in this case, the highest would be used). How would users specify they want to load the highest minor version of 1.? I was thinking about creating a little loader for the highest version _only_, for when users don't specify the version when loading an extension (so the highest is picked). For example, if the foo egg is installed (say its version is 1.0), the local repo would contain: foo-1.0.so foo.so foo.so would be generated by compiling (require-library foo-1.0) since 1.0 is the highest version. Now suppose there's a new version for foo (1.1). So, when foo is updated, the local repo would contain: foo-1.0.so foo-1.1.so foo.so Now, foo.so would contain the code to load foo-1.1, not 1.0, but users will still be able to load 1.0 if they need (explicitly, though). I guess having eitther the newest or a specific version is enough. I don't think having finer grained access is really necessary, but I think Peter proposed that? I think he did too. But is you're view of fine-grained a bit 'reversed' ? If you say you want foo-1, and *if* that library is done such that minor version increases are backward-compatible in the same major number, isn't it more naturall to request foo-1 and then get the highest minor number than requesting foo then have the higher overall number ? (since higher major numbers are more likely to break compatibility than higher minor numbers) In other words, foo-1.1 and foo-1.2 are the same library, while foo-1.0 and foo-2.0 are too different. If I make a mistake here, I guess we could have some guidelines on the semantic of version numbers... Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Re: #include in foreign-parse
2008/7/9 felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 11:04 PM, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Weird. By ending the #include ... lines with a #include file.h with file.h being in the .egg, chicken-setup ends successfully. Is it something known (and corrected in later version) ? I'll check this. It is properly caused by a problem with the current include path during compalation of the egg. In fact, while chicken-setup completes, it's not true it's successful : no binding is generated. I can't say more, I've reverted my egg to include the header files (so it's certainly not a show-stopper for me). Cheers, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] getopt, getopt_long?
2008/7/8 William Xu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Does chicken have some egg for wrapping getopt, getopt_long? I don't know specifically for getopt, but you might be interested by http://chicken.wiki.br/tool or http://chicken.wiki.br/args-doc. Cheers, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] #include in foreign-parse
Hi, I've made bindings in the following way (in a .scm file): (foreign-parse #EOF ___declare ... ... #include somefile.h ... EOF ) and the somefile.h is placed in the .egg. No problem, everything is fine. (But how do I install a local .egg ? chicken-setup complains the .egg is not in /tmp/chicken-... ) Then, since the somefile.h ships with the library to bind, it makes sense, to replace #include somefile.h with #include somefile.h no more put it in the .egg, and assume the library is already installed. But now, when installing the egg, I've got Error: during expansion of (foreign-parse ...) - can not open include file: somefile.h I think the problem is because of the change somefile.h somefile.h, but I'm not sure. The header is in /usr/local/include/, maybe sudo chicken-setup does not see it ? Any idea ? (I'm still using chicken 3.2.0) Thanks a lot, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Re: [Chicken-hackers] better hash function
2008/3/19, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is a hashes egg w/ FNV many others. I forgot that version of the first rule (of whatever rules set) : - always look at what already exists becomes - always look at eggs unlimited Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [chicken-users] silex GPL-2 licensed?
[snip] Does this mean distributing the c intermediates of an app along with the chicken libraries (in c form) and eggs (again in c form) needed to run it therefore has no need for silex either and can be distributed under, for example, a BSD license? That's right. Of course, if you use a GPLed egg, you have to distribute Scheme source for your whole app. C source is obfuscated and doesn't count for GPL purposes. It seems to me that you both say the opposite. I understand the exemple above of distributing averything in C form includes C code from any egg (under any license, not just BSD). So what is it, generated C code cannot be redistributed without the scheme source if the scheme source is GPL or can it be, just like code emitted by Bison or Silex ? Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] spiffy example
Hi, In 'Adding dynamic resources' at http://chicken.wiki.br/spiffy, I think there are two mistakes : - http:write-response-header should be write-response-header - and before calling it, the current-request parameter should be changed to the request argument. I don't change the wiki because I'm not really sure of this (we can use the code of the http egg example instead). Cheers, Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] define not using define
Hi, Is it possible to register symbols in Chicken, just as a global (define ...) would do from arbitrary code? I'd like to be able to write (setting 'color '#f32(1 0 0 0)) and have the same effect than a (define color (make-parameter '#f32(1 0 0 0)) unless the color procedure already exists. Is it possible to define 'setting' as a procedure and not as a macro (or am I limited to use 'setting' at the top level (I don't mean the repl))? The fact color is procedure is nice for me, I'd rather call (color) than (look-up 'color). Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] define not using define
[...] On a tangent, this reminds me of a macro I use. I wanted to introduce formal hook-points in the main program, and let the run-script inject hook-procedures into the main code if desired. The macro [...] I guess you could now use the advice egg (http://chicken.wiki.br/advice). Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Re: define w/o define
2008/1/25, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Also see the environments egg. #;10 (use environments) #;11 bar Error: unbound variable: bar #;11 (environment-set! (interaction-environment) 'bar 45) #;12 bar 45 Thanks all, I should have what I need :) thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] define not using define
Hi, Elf, does your use of callcc has the same purpose of Graham's eval (i.e. define at the global scope) ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] ssp-handler
Hi, It seems http://trac.callcc.org/changeset/7190 hasn't get to the spiffy egg. Should I get spiffy from svn ? Thanks, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] local metafile use to create an egg
Hi, Currently, I use a makefile to build an egg. Is it possible to create it with the same process .meta file is automatically used when committing in svn (i.e. locally, with no real commit)? Thanks, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] local metafile use to create an egg
14 Jan 2008 18:02:15 -0200, Mario Domenech Goulart [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi minh thu, On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:02:55 +0100 minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Currently, I use a makefile to build an egg. Is it possible to create it with the same process .meta file is automatically used when committing in svn (i.e. locally, with no real commit)? I don't know if I understand what you want. Maybe the script below can do the trick. It packs an egg based on the information from the meta file found under the given egg directory. It assumes tar is installed and it doesn't generate the HTML documentation from eggdoc or wiki files (just ignores it). Example of use: $ csi -s eggify.scm ~/src/chicken-eggs/spiffy/trunk spiffy-base.scm spiffy.scm ssp-handler.scm web-scheme-handler.scm cgi-handler.scm simple-directory-handler.scm spiffy.setup $ cp ~/src/chicken-eggs/spiffy/trunk/spiffy.egg . $ chicken-setup spiffy.egg gzip -d -c ../spiffy.egg | tar xf - /usr/local/chicken-2.732/bin/csc -feature compiling-extension -s -O2 -no-trace spiffy-base.scm /usr/local/chicken-2.732/bin/csc -feature compiling-extension -s -O2 -no-trace ssp-handler.scm ... rm -fr spiffy.egg-dir 8 (use posix (srfi 1)) (define (eggify eggdir) (let* ((metafiles (glob (make-pathname eggdir * meta (when (null? metafiles) (die Couldn't find any metafile.)) (let* ((metafile (car metafiles)) (metadata (handle-exceptions exn (die metafile : syntax error.) (with-input-from-file metafile read))) (egg (car (alist-ref 'egg metadata))) (eggname (pathname-file egg)) (doc-from-wiki (alist-ref 'doc-from-wiki metadata)) (eggdoc (alist-ref 'eggdoc metadata)) (files (alist-ref 'files metadata))) (when (or doc-from-wiki eggdoc) ;; ignores documentation (set! files (delete (make-pathname #f eggname html) files))) (change-directory eggdir) (system (string-append tar czvf egg (string-intersperse files)) (define (usage #!optional exit-code) (print Usage: (program-name) egg-dir) (when exit-code (exit exit-code))) (define (die . msg) (print (apply conc msg)) (exit 1)) (let ((args (command-line-arguments))) (if ( (length args) 1) (usage 1) (let ((arg1 (car args))) (if (member arg1 '(-h --help -help)) (usage 0) (begin (unless (file-exists? arg1) (die eggdir does not exist.)) (eggify arg1)) 8 Best wishes, Mario Gee, I wasn't asking for that much ! You correctly understood, although I was talking about the code used by the svn hook. Thanks a lot, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Ending input reading without quit csi
Hi, Say I write in csi somethign like (for-each-line (lambda (line) (display line))) which will read from current-input-port, how can I end the input (if I use ctrl-d, it stops csi too) ? How can I make csi display another prompt while reading ? Thanks, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Ending input reading without quit csi
2008/1/8, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Jan 8, 2008 12:09 PM, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Say I write in csi somethign like (for-each-line (lambda (line) (display line))) which will read from current-input-port, Correct. how can I end the input (if I use ctrl-d, it stops csi too) ? You will have to handle it yourself. One way would be to check the input (say, an empty line) and abort the iteration: (call/cc (lambda (continue) (for-each-line (lambda (line) (when (string=? line) (continue #f)) ... How can I make csi display another prompt while reading ? #;1 (repl-prompt (lambda () ::: )) ::: 123 123 ::: 456 456 ::: (+ 3 4) 7 cheers, felix Great, thanks thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] how to join two threads ?
2007/12/30, Thomas Christian Chust [EMAIL PROTECTED]: minh thu schrieb: [...] I'd like to know how I can make an srfi-18 thread wait for the completion of another one. [...] From the SRFI-18 standard document: [...] Oh! I've looked at the chiken wiki page only. Sorry and thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] reading available data from a port
2/ Actually, what is to be read from i in 1/ is something like tag Note the ending /tag will appear later after some enclosed elements. (This is an XML stream defined by XMPP core (rfc3920).) Is it possible to use SSAX to read just an opening tag ? This should be possible, but I have no experience with SSAX, so perhaps someone who has can give a hint. Normally, you should be able to assume that you can read a complete XML element, or not? I'm no XMPP expert, but if the format is XML, you should be able to simply read complete elements and perhaps use multithreading and tcp read/write timeouts to handle incomplete data (if that is what you are trying to do here). You can read a complete element only in the stream. The stream is opened with an opening tag. The closing corresponding tag will appears later or never. But I think I can reuse SSAX:make-parser to simply emit SXML for the complete elements embedded in the stream. The creation of SXML will be nearly a copy of the SSAX:XML-SXML. (Thus, my problem is gone, just need coding :) Cheers, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] reading available data from a port
Hi, 1/ I use tcp-connect to get i and o. If I do (read-line i), it works if there is actually a \n. If I do (read-string a-number i), it works if I don't try to get more than available data. (Assume the i isn't closed because the server will write later.) How do I get what is already present ? Should I instead use read-token until I have all what I want ? 2/ Actually, what is to be read from i in 1/ is something like tag Note the ending /tag will appear later after some enclosed elements. (This is an XML stream defined by XMPP core (rfc3920).) Is it possible to use SSAX to read just an opening tag ? Thanks a lot and merry christmas ! thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] XMPP egg ?
Hi, has someone already begun an (sxml based) xmpp egg ? Cheers, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] how to use define-macro to...
Hi, 1/ I'd like to repeat this code for a lot of operators (not just + as in the following). How can I do that ? (define old+ +) (define (+ a b) (if (or (instance-of? a behavior) (instance-of? b behavior)) (create-behavior (list a b) old+) (old+ a b))) The problem is how to capture the old + (as old+) to use it in the redefinition. 2/ I could write the following at any place I want to print debug info. (cond-expand (debug-behaviors (printf Debugging...~N)) (else) Note the particular symbol debug-behaviors. But it's boring; I would prefer have a debug macro instead : (debug (printf Debugging...~N)) But I don't know how I can make it expends to nothing as in the else clause of the cond-expand. I use this : (define-macro (debug rest) (cond-expand (debug-behaviors rest) (else '(noop I have to use the noop procedure. Also, can I write a higher macro to generate the debug one with a particular debug-something symbol ? Thanks, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Re: chicken lottery!
2007/12/14, Alex Shinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Dec 11, 2007 10:56 PM, Alex Shinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ladies, gentlemen and other, we've reached 350 eggs, which means some lucky contributor is going to be the proud owner of their very own Chicken T-shirt! This time we're inviting you all to witness the choosing live. ... and the winner is Terrence Brannon, author of the matpack egg! We'll be sending a TV crew to deliver the T-shirt and interview Terrence on his good fortune! Congratulations ! (I missed the live die roll) mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] chicken lottery!
[snip] Roll #eggs Name 1-23 23Ivan Raikov 24-32 9Arto Bendiken 33-40 8Tony Sidaway 41-43 3Will Farr 44-46 3Ben Kurtz 47-49 3Vo minh Thu [snip] Hehe tha'ts nice but it's unfair to give me such a range, none of my eggs are usable by other people than me (although I don't give up and will hopefully work on them later). Cheers, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] chicken scheme + gui on Nokia n800 or n810?
2007/12/6, Elf [EMAIL PROTECTED]: heh, are the n810s out yet? i wanted to get one and port chicken to it as my new organiser... -elf I don't know where you are but e.g. expansys.com mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] chicken scheme + gui on Nokia n800 or n810?
John : [...] In terms of GUI, well I just use GTK+ as IMO it is fairly high-level and abstracted enough from raw C that it is pretty easy to use. You also get the benefit of cut 'n pasting a lot of pre-written code if you go this route. Chicken embeds easily into a GTK+ app. I just do the interface code in GTK+ and backend in Chicken. Do you mean you write the ui with gtk+ in C ? How is the wiring between that and Chicken done (which one calls the other and how) ? Thanks mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] synonyms for module sought
2007/9/7, Moe Aboulkheir [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:38:12 +0200, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: could came up with these, so far: module (boring) package structure (misleading) library (impossible, due to political reasons, and also misleading) component (nah...) enclosure(...) Has anybody more to suggest? none are very good: unit, accessory, ingredient, element, constituent hello, entity, basement, ground, layer, fruit, wire, armature, spark, neuron, squad, group, level, to-be-reus'd, stratum, album, aquarium, ball, lingery, catwalk, page, bullet, ammo, sorry, hope, it, helps, a, bit, minh thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] preferred gui library
Brandon wrote : Lightweight can be a valid design choice. I'm just pointing out the strategic consequences of fixating on that. I mean, let's face it, people intoned all those ideas and desires some months ago and nothing has come of it. Hehe, only because I'm damn slow ... but I'm still on it (I mean the opengl only stuff). It needs lot of cleaning and documentation before I can speak of it... (I'm still reading the list from time to time but I've no more permanent access to the internet and, unfortunatly, I'm slow at what I want to do with chicken) Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Re: Another request (bigger this time)
2007/4/5, John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kon Lovett scripsit: Please get the current Chicken darcs head build. Then evaluate the following: cygwin - windows - unknown : #(32 46 16 4 3 107 3 93 #t 18000) : #(32 46 20 4 3 107 3 93 #f 18000) : 1175719592.0 : 1175719592.0 : EDT -- John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ccil.org/~cowan Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers, philologists, psychologists, biologists and neurologists, along with whatever blood can be got out of grammarians. - Russ Rymer ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users Hi, Is the request still active ? I don't know which one is ended in the Thank you mail. Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Another request (bigger this time)
2007/4/5, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 4/4/07, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I just released a fix for Windows that should correct the problem of using the C 'timezone' since it is a function w/ Cygwin. I think all builds on Windows can use '_timezone'. However I cannot test it since I cannot build anymore on Windows. Please get the current Chicken darcs head build. Then evaluate the following: csi -n -e '(require-extension posix) (print (build-platform) - (software-type) - (software-version) : (seconds-local-time (current-seconds)) : (seconds-utc-time (current-seconds)) : (local-time-seconds (seconds-local-time (current-seconds))) : (utc-time-seconds (seconds-utc-time (current-seconds))) : (local-timezone-abbreviation))' This might be too late, but: gnu - unix - linux : #(46 35 9 5 3 107 4 94 #t -3600) : #(46 35 7 5 3 107 4 94 #f -3600) : 1175758546.0 : 1175758546.0 : CET That's Göttingen, Germany, CET +1 (I think) Yes, CET is GMT + 1 and Germany is in daylight saving time which means CET + 1, ie. GMT + 2. Look here: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=995 http://wwp.european-union-eu.com/germany/time.htm thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] how to map Scheme string to void* instead of char*
Hi, I'm a bit lost : I'm using foreign-parse to write bindings for the QuesoGLC library [1] (which I'll release as BSD3 egg; the library itself is LGPL). Some functions of this library accept string as argument; the type is void*, not char*. Building the bindings seems to go well but when I want to use such a function, Chicken tells me bad argument type - not a pointer. I guess I'll have the same problem with void* return types. How should I handle those cases ? [1] http://quesoglc.sourceforge.net/ Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] how to map Scheme string to void* instead of char*
2007/4/4, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 4/4/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm a bit lost : I'm using foreign-parse to write bindings for the QuesoGLC library [1] (which I'll release as BSD3 egg; the library itself is LGPL). Some functions of this library accept string as argument; the type is void*, not char*. Building the bindings seems to go well but when I want to use such a function, Chicken tells me bad argument type - not a pointer. I guess I'll have the same problem with void* return types. How should I handle those cases ? How do you wrap those library functions? With easyffi? Then, you can just change the argument type declarations to char *. Yes, with easyffi (I use foreign-parse, so doesn't it imply it's easyffi ?). Changing C declarations to char* works, thank you. Can I request a repository for this egg ? I think 'glc' would be an appropriate name. Thank you, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] QuesoGLC bindings
Hi, From its homepage, QuesoGLC is a free (as in free speech) implementation of the OpenGL Character Renderer (GLC). QuesoGLC is based on the FreeType library, provides Unicode support and is designed to be easily ported to any platform that supports both FreeType and the OpenGL API [1]. It's under LGPL, the egg under BSD. The glc egg is a complete (but not already tested) binding for QuesoGLC 0.6, the latest version (2007-03-13). This is my first egg release and some things are blurred. In particular, I'd like to wait feedback from people on Windows and MacOS before setting the version to 0.1. If you have time, grep TODO on the sources, there're only four of them :) I guess the egg will be available through chicken-setup only when I make a version in /tags. So it's available for now from [2]. [1] http://quesoglc.sourceforge.net/ [2] svn co https://galinha.ucpel.tche.br/svn/chicken-eggs/glc Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] A request
2007/4/4, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Folks, Please evaluate the following on your available platforms send me the results. csi -n -e '(require-extension posix) (print (build-platform) - (software-type) - (software-version) : (seconds-local-time (current-seconds)))' Thank you, You're welcome: gnu - unix - linux : #(26 0 19 4 3 107 3 93 #t -3600) thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] A request
2007/4/4, Kyle R. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please evaluate the following on your available platforms send me the results. csi -n -e '(require-extension posix) (print (build-platform) - (software-type) - (software-version) : (seconds-local-time (current-seconds)))' gnu - unix - macosx : #(46 14 13 4 3 107 3 93 #t -14400) gnu - unix - linux : #(47 18 13 4 3 107 3 93 #t 18000) King of Prussia, PA, USA (it's near Philadelphia PA) ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users I'm CEST, UTC/GMT +2 hours thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Unicode inside csi
Hi, I try to print correctly unicode on the console (under Linux). What should I do for this ? I don't understand the following, can someone explain it ? Version 2.6 - linux-unix-gnu-x86 - [ libffi dload ptables applyhook ] (c)2000-2007 Felix L. Winkelmann ; loading /home/mt/.csirc ... ; loading /usr/local/lib/chicken/1/readline.so ... ; loading library regex ... #;1 (char-integer (string-ref \u00f9 0)) 195 #;2 #x00f9 249 #;3 (print ù) ù ù #;4 (char-integer (string-ref ù 0)) 195 #;5 (print (string-ref ù 0)) � #\� #;6 (print 'ù') ù |ù| In particular, why value of line 1 is 195 and value of line 2 is 249 ? Actual decimal value for ù is 249. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Re: Unicode inside csi
2007/4/3, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, I try to print correctly unicode on the console (under Linux). What should I do for this ? I don't understand the following, can someone explain it ? Version 2.6 - linux-unix-gnu-x86 - [ libffi dload ptables applyhook ] (c)2000-2007 Felix L. Winkelmann ; loading /home/mt/.csirc ... ; loading /usr/local/lib/chicken/1/readline.so ... ; loading library regex ... #;1 (char-integer (string-ref \u00f9 0)) 195 #;2 #x00f9 249 #;3 (print ù) ù ù #;4 (char-integer (string-ref ù 0)) 195 #;5 (print (string-ref ù 0)) � #\� #;6 (print 'ù') ù |ù| Ouch, forget the last one :) In particular, why value of line 1 is 195 and value of line 2 is 249 ? Actual decimal value for ù is 249. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Unicode inside csi
2007/4/3, Thomas Christian Chust [EMAIL PROTECTED]: minh thu wrote: [...] In particular, why value of line 1 is 195 and value of line 2 is 249 ? Actual decimal value for ù is 249. [...] Hello, by default, CHICKEN's strings are bytestrings, not character strings. Therefore the string-ref call is returning the first byte of the extended character marker of UTF-8, not the character itself. If you want CHICKEN's strings to behave as UTF-8 character strings, have a look at the utf-8 egg. cu, Thomas Thanks Thomas, Thanks John ! thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] noobie question about chicken/swig/csi
2007/4/2, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2007/4/2, Tato Norren [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Hi,
I feel like an idiot asking, but what exactly are the sequence of
commands needed to make the following C function callable from the
chicken interpretor? on Linux.
//test.c
double test(double x){
return x * x;
}
//test.i
%module test
%{
double test(double);
%}
thanks,
tato
Hi,
For simple things like that, don't use swig.
In a .scm file, write this:
(define test
(foreign-lambda double test double))
'test' is the name in Scheme.
test is the name in C.
The first double is the return type.
The last double is the arg.
Compile the .scm and the .c files together with csc -s.
Note the -s whiwh will make a shared library : a .so file.
Now assuming the file were called tt.*, you can bring the function in csi with
csi -require-extension tt
or calling (require-extension tt) from a script.
For more complete explanation, see here:
http://chicken.wiki.br/Interface to external functions and variables
There is another way : just use the declaration of your function with
foreign-parse, it will automatically make it available in Scheme.
Use the Search Box and your left on
http://chicken.wiki.br/.
Cheers,
thu
Re,
I forgot to say that you need to declare your function.
Here an example:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/projets/chicken/test$ cat test.c
/* test.c */
double
test( double x )
{
return x * x;
}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/projets/chicken/test$ cat tt.scm
; test.scm
; you can replace the following with a (foreign-parse ...)
#
double test( double );
#
; ... then you don't need this !
(define test
(foreign-lambda double test double))
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/projets/chicken/test$ csc -s test.c tt.scm
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/projets/chicken/test$ csi -require-extension tt
// /
___ (______ ( ___ ___
|| )| ||___)|___)| )
|__ | / | |__ | \ |__ | /
Version 2.6 - linux-unix-gnu-x86 - [ libffi dload ptables applyhook ]
(c)2000-2007 Felix L. Winkelmann
; loading /home/mt/.csirc ...
; loading /usr/local/lib/chicken/1/readline.so ...
; loading library regex ...
; loading ./tt.so ...
#;1 (test 5)
#;1
#;1 (test 5)
25.0
#;2 ,q
Cheers,
thu
___
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Re: [Chicken-users] noobie question about chicken/swig/csi
2007/4/2, Alex Queiroz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hallo, On 4/2/07, Graham Fawcett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neat, huh? There's also the easy-ffi, lazy-ffi, etc. Chicken's really good at this kind of thing, if you're the kind of person who likes having choices. I guess there are so many ffi choices because it must be a pain to write pure C extensions, judged by what I've seen from chicken's output. But I think that's inevitable given how Chicken uses the machine stack. Well, in fact I found very practical to made that sort of stuff. Write your C code then just a bit of Scheme so that Chicken is aware of the C code. Compile, that's it. What's more, given chicken-setup, it's also easy to make your library available to the community. Graham, I did the example that way because I like to separate C from Scheme : - if I want to move more to C side for performance, it will be easier - I keep in my head the possibility to make the library available as widely as possible by keeping it in C and making bindings for other languages. Cheers, (And I get caught by April 1 :) thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Rewriting Svnwiki in Java or PHP
2007/4/1, Alejandro Forero Cuervo [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have been having some conversations with Nelson Castillo and other Svnwiki users and contributors. Some of us believe that by rewriting Svnwiki entirely in another programming language the number of contributions would increase significantly. A lot of people would like to contribute but they lack the programming skills required to learn Scheme. We are considering rewriting it in either Java or PHP. I'm leaning more towards Java but a very good case for PHP has been made by Arhuaco. We have also considered Python, Ruby and C#. There are more details here: http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net//weblogs/azul/rewriting-svnwiki It should be said that we haven't made up our minds yet. The amount of efforts to rewrite Svnwiki in another language shouldn't be underestimated. However, unless a good case is made for keeping it in Scheme, chances are we will switch to another language. Thoughts? It's a sad news : every other project starter could say then : hey, look, they turned their code to something else for lack of contribution. I guess it would not bring as many people than using Java but maybe you can consider the following: consider the time of a rewrite and consider the time to make the extant code be well documented, maybe to some part, looking like a (Scheme) tutorial. People like Real World code. About Ruby or Python, am I wrong by thinking that people who know Ruby or Python are a good audience for that kind of document ? For example, in programming.reddit, Haskell, Ruby, Scheme are well represented. I mean that if you switch to Ruby (not Java), you will gain community but the *kind* of programmer will be the same (i.e. functionnal or at least not-main-stream languages lovers). So keeping Scheme might not be so bad to attract them. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Aliasing a module variable with a variable from the user ?
Hi, Say I've a module with a bunch of procedures that use a global variable. Call it *global*. Can I use that module and specify that *global* is an alias of *my-global* ? (So that every procedures of the above module now work actually on *my-global*.) Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] multiple define from a macro
2007/3/26, Arto Bendiken [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3/26/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (define-macro (csg:make-mode-handler mode) ... `(define ,press '()) `(define ,release '()) `(define (,name+) (print hello+)) `(define (,name-) (print hello- Only the later `(define ...) is produced. How can I have the three other ones produced too ? Wrap the `define' forms in a `begin', like so: `(begin (define ,press '()) (define ,release '()) ...) Thank you very much! thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : [Chicken-users] 3D update
2007/3/23, Brandon J. Van Every [EMAIL PROTECTED]: minh thu wrote: I sought a kind of german demo which featured procedural content to make a very small exe that holds everything. It was popular at the time but I forgot the name. .theprodukkt ? http://www.theprodukkt.com/ Yes :) thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] is foreign-parse enum possible ?
Hi list, Is it possible to FOREIGN-PARSE a C enum ? And a C struct ? Otherwise, it's really a nice tool. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Re: [Chicken-hackers] egg-post-commit
2007/3/8, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3/7/07, Alejandro Forero Cuervo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: egg-post-commit should only automatically upload an egg if (1) it detects a change in the directory for the egg's latest release and (2) the egg's directory doesn't have the 'autoupdate' Subversion property set to 'no'. The directory for an egg's latest release would be: 1. If the egg has a 'tags' directory, 1.1. If the 'tags' directory has a 'latest' property set to 'foo', the directory is 'tags/foo'. 1.2. Otherwise, the directory under 'tags' corresponding to the greatest version number. 2. The egg's directory. I'll do it exactly that way. Hi, What if the directory contains multiple eggs ? I ask this because I think I'll end up with lot of eggs for the gl-suite project. Is it better to have, gl-display-*, gl-font, gl-math, gl-repl, gl-samples, gl-etcaetera, or simply gl-suite ? (If the former, Felix, prepare to have more request from me:) Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] Re: [Chicken-hackers] egg-post-commit
2007/3/7, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3/6/07, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, shouldn't we really start thinking about automatic upload? Please, what does the above phrase mean? Automatic egg post when the svn repo copy of the source is changed? I hope not. Well, (un)fortunately, it means yes. The problem is that it is gettting more and more involved having the proper setup for running egg-post-commit. Additionally I'd find it more convenient to have automatic uploads on commit since running the upload script manually can get tedious after a while. If you prefer to do it manually, I guess we should provide an option (as an svn property). So my proposal: - egg-post-commit can still be used as normal - if an egg has been changed by a commit, has a .meta file, all files listed in the .meta file are available and the directory does not have a noautoupload property (or whatever), then it is uploaded automatically to call/cc.org. Would that be acceptable? Hi, When you make a change, don't you up the version ? If it's the case, automatic upload would only involve new directory under tags. Also, in the .meta file, maybe it would be wise to have an option to disable the .meta file. And an option to disable the .meta file after one run. Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Re: [Chicken-hackers] egg-post-commit
2007/3/7, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3/7/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you make a change, don't you up the version ? No. That's the job of the developer. I was talking a bout the developer when saying you... If it's the case, automatic upload would only involve new directory under tags. Also, in the .meta file, maybe it would be wise to have an option to disable the .meta file. Good idea. So, this one means don't run the script. And an option to disable the .meta file after one run. I don't understand this one. Could you explain? And this one means run it only once then change the .meta file so it's disabled. I don't know if it would be really convenient but it allows the developer to set run once, commit its changes and be sure that its changes are reflected, but also that it won't happen for the next changes. Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
2007/3/3, Zbigniew [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There are about a billion ideas flying around and I've lost track of your overall intent. If you want to develop a 3D program interactively you can just start it with csi or call (repl) and issue GL commands and debug interactively like normal. For example it is easy to run the sdl-gears example and change the lighting interactively, just throw the animation loop in its own thread. If you want to make a console in-game for some reason (e.g. you are on an embedded system) with full access to your environment, you could do it the same way, only modify Felix's repl code to do I/O to your console, or use a pseudo terminal to bridge the repl to the console instead. Of course on an embedded system, assuming your goal is not just to look pretty, you could just use a serial console and retain the full interactive development abilities of Emacs on your dev machine. My intent is pretty close of what you say. I just want to provide a simple repl directly inside the OpenGL window. I see mostly four reasons to do this. - csi + readline + thread is problematic (from my test, maybe I'm wrong). Although I say 'simple' some file saving/reading would be great. csi without readline is very poor to make real editing session. - I've to switch from vim to emacs + quack + paredit. In a sense, I'm switching to OpenGL programming with Chicken, that's enough for me for the moment. Having the repl in OpenGL is a practical, reusable block of code. It can serve in a real program, see autocad, or maya (mel language), and so on. - Once it's done, people have ideas to experiment with. That's what make you lost track :) - I've forgot the fourth point, something like it's fun :) Oh, this is my intent regarding the opengl repl. I also want to provide other simple building blocks. Font system is one. Camera/projections library is another one. Editor stuff was just discussions, I'm not going to do it but I believe once some building blocks are done, people will try to do things... On the other hand if you are just aiming to write a GL-based terminal there are plenty of examples out there, and if you're aiming for the full Squeak monty, then, good luck :) I don't know Squeak. I've heard about Morphs (for Smalltalk I think) but that's all. I need to look at it. Cheers, thu On 3/3/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By the way, I don't plane to write an IDE neither an editor. But I plane to write a repl. Once it's done (plus some other basic stuff), I thing every body interested could contribute/test/have fun with some *implemented* ideas. ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
2007/3/3, Peter Keller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 12:22:34AM +0100, minh thu wrote: Do you have an opinion regarding havind bare s-exp or sxml representation of the code ? Honestly, the only thing xml is good for is for interchange of data since so many people agree on what it looks like--but I'm bitter. :) If you designed your own s-exp structures for code representation, or you used sxml, you still have the arduous task of deciding what the actual information representation structure will look like. You can't escape that real part of the work and it is just as difficult in either form. The nice thing about either method is that it will always be convertable to the other representation form. So, I'd say pick a native model representation form (probably raw s-exp) which best captures the problem domain of the idea and write everything to use that. You can always read/write sxml representations of that model to trade between other people. I recommend this because the native model view of the problem domain, if well designed and efficient, means a helluva lot less data structure conversion code to manipulate it. At first sight, I would use bare s-exp ... The tricky part is that since this is an editor, it has to be line, and also, s-exp oriented. Sometimes those might conflict in interesting ways, especially in terms of incomplete forms or just non-scheme code. ... and add new forms along the line of (comment ...), ... As for ideas for features the editor (which I'm imagining can be a scheme IDE) should have, I can spew them forever: 1. Code is never thought about as being in files. Instead, the user creates views of codes. Initial (and permanently available) views are human constructed collections of related code, e.g., all codes relating to some hash table implementation. This is a little different than say eclipse because eclipse only shows one class at a time, and you can't really group classes into logical blocks (unless they are part of a package, which might not be the case in your mind), and it is different than VC++ because that is file oriented, or suffers from the same fine granularity problem as eclipse with the class view (and friends). Here is a very subtle psychological observation of how humans write code. We programmers create a 2 dimensional plane which create a slice through the high dimensional execution space of conceptually linear algorithms in a (usual) top down fashion on said plane. Function invocations can be thought of as moving in a direction perpendicular to the plane of viewing to another plane which contains said implementation. This is a product of both our reading/language skills and because we copied those skills when it came time to create computers. In hindsight, we had no other reason to pick anything different, but to continue it now is a damn dirty shame The problem is that while we can write the code that way, debugging _unanticipated execution flow problems_ (something that happens every day when writing code) or looking at it from other meaningful slices is impossibly difficult and done with extreme pain because we are stuck with the initial (and only) view that we had originally created. An editor like eclipse tried to solve this by making a 2d view the smallest conceptual unit possible as defined in the language (a class). In my mind, this is too damn fine grained, since if a class references a bunch of other classes (and they always do) you end up having a stack of windows and digging through them to follow a code path of execution. By the time you finish clicking the mouse, not only are you lost, but you probably can't get back to where you were. Traditional vim/emacs goes the other extreme, you are left with the exact 2D slices you used to create the software and come hell or high water you will never be able to get a complete picture of an execution path or other aspect-like query through many (possibly dozens) of 2D slices. I *HATE* that. Agreed. It should be possible to edit the code without jumping around but by following execution, a bit like you edit a sequence diagram : the diagram is unrolled. 2. With views as a first class entity, now you can start to perform some extremely powerful source queries, like: give me a view of everyone who uses a particular function in one editor pane (think of a traditional window of text in an editor), perform a callgraph analysis of this function and give me an editor pane of all the functions it ever ends up calling, give me an editor pane of all leaf functions, show me all functions where I perform recursion, show me all functions which match a regex, show me all functions which have in them a specified s-exp, show me all functions where this global variable is accessed, etc, etc, etc. It becomes easy to imagine a map/filter like source code query system: (filter all functions that use this global variable, then map this tree-rewriter across the enclosing form
Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
Thank you for the paredit reference. I wasn't really looking for any such thing at them moment but I will try it when I get the time to migrate from BBEdit to Emacs. I knew about paredit (and tried to use it) but I haven't migrated from vim to emacs yet, and I don't know if I will... I'm not entirely sure what Minh Thu is up to but I wanted to remind him of the enormity of the task of editor creation. Personally I don't think a pure Chicken IDE is a useful goal. At first, I don't want to write a (general purpose) editor. I'm on the gl-display api, have a working gl-display-glx implementation, have a working gl-font (based on freetype) font-loading and text-printing egg. Everything is very loose and I will release them later, when I think it's worth to be seen (and ready for discussion (The loose aspect would make very poor discussion)). Now, my goal is to write 3d computer graphics code with Chicken (and C). And more and more my goal is to write it *inside* Chicken : I've began to write a gl-repl : it takes keyboard input, shows the characters with gl-font, then feed the expression to Felix's eval. It's very basic and I want it to be more practical and kewl. What this means : have a 3d application in development in your window and in the same window you have your repl in overlay. I'd like to have more than a without-libreadline-like repl. It's OpenGL !! I want to provide nifty escape sequences to gl-print to have nifty colors (and more :). I can do this. But the editor is a wish. Open a file in that OpenGL window, edit it, feed eval with some s-exp from the file and so on. Anyway, say I'm crazy enough to begin the task. There're options : - text (i.e. char array) based. - direct s-exp based. By direct, I mean the data structure is the same s-exp that will be fed to eval. - sxml s-exp based. At first sight, I want to use one of the s-exp based idea. Of course, for string editing (i.e. anything not a paren : string, numbers, comments, ...), the first option has to be present. - direct s-exp : no need to parse, we have READ. - sxml s-exp : we have sxpath, sedna, ... a lot of things. We need to specify the sxml representation for any scheme code. Even the one that results from user-defined macro ? With s-exp based editing, I guess especially sxml, we can make an editor that abstracts away the directory/file organisation, but use extension/modul/unit/define. (My knowledge about those is very poor at the moment). One idea : with a sxml representation, could we have a tool that see if two procedures do (potentially) the same things ? -- About the s-exp representation for comments. What about (comment this is a (silly) comment\) ? And (cmt this comment is about the next form) (cmt and this one about the previous one) without syntax highlighting, those ';' are not necessary. - Briefly : A basic gl-repl will exist. I really want a cool a gl-edit but I don't know how far I can go. (And hooray for 2.6 !) Cheers, Vo Minh Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
2007/3/2, Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3/2/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm on the gl-display api, have a working gl-display-glx implementation, have a working gl-font (based on freetype) font-loading and text-printing egg. Cool! How are you rendering the text? The choices are (AFAICT) use freetype to generate bitmaps (maybe build a bitmap for each character/font combination, or maybe render a word at a time or a line at a time) and display them using glBitmap; use freetype to generate antialiased pixmaps (same choices for characters, words or lines) and use them as textures on top of polygons; or somehow convert the font to vertices and render the text entirely as filled triangles. I didn't see a way that the results of glBitmap can be transformed - it goes straight to the framebuffer, right? Besides not being antialiased. The third method (vertices) might be slow (or is it nowadays?) So I figured the second method (textures) has the most promise. But ideally it should leverage the power of the GPU somehow, rather than involving Freetype for every line of text every time it's drawn. If you render a word at a time, you can save them to GPU memory as textures and re-use them every time that word with that font is shown, while still making use of Freetype's hinting. If you render a character at a time, the set of textures becomes smaller, and you gain the ability to transform each character (like for doing text along a path, for example) but have to do hinting yourself. From freetype, I'll query each glyph as a pixmap (8bits) and store them in a single array of unsigned char. Yes, I do this C side because I don't want to write a freetype binding. Once it's done, I upload the array into video memory as a single texture. Then I create a display list for each char. To render a string, just call glCallLists. The c array is released since the texture is held by opengl. (I say I but I just used the technique from fltk and/or fox) One think is a bit problematic : each glyph/char means nearly all 8bits ascii code, i.e. 256 chars. So there's no utf-8 support right now. I don't know yet how to handle it, probably a system of cache. The fact it's texture (on quads) means you can render in 3d, not only in screen pixels. Changing the color is just a call to glColor*. If you find the thing not correct, just keep in mind it's early code and I've nearly no experience ... and of course I accept help :) Everything is very loose and I will release them later, when I think it's worth to be seen (and ready for discussion (The loose aspect would make very poor discussion)). I'd like to see it because I haven't written anything for text display yet; maybe now I don't need to. Well, I'll ask to Felix a little place for me svn-side. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
2007/3/2, Peter Keller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:27:41AM -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote: On 3/2/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm on the gl-display api, have a working gl-display-glx implementation, have a working gl-font (based on freetype) font-loading and text-printing egg. Cool! Wow, that is cool! Talk about HGR days on the Apple //e! It'd be like having a console for game code without writing one specifically. Yes, you have all Chicken available behind EVAL. I wonder if toplevel could be extended to contain things like objects and or other graphical things that you can manipulate like variables. Stuff like: (gl-define cube (glutWireCube 2.0)) ;; cube shows up in the center of the screen. (rotate cube 45 1.0 0.0 0.0) ;; cube rotates on screen. (set! cube '()) ;; the cube is erased -pete Hehe :) thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: Re : [Chicken-users] opengl egg naming scheme
2007/3/2, Zbigniew [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Isn't the only difference the lack of a colon? It would be trivial to auto-generate a shim file with all the defines in it that you could simply include with your code.Certainly no more difficult than renaming the opengl egg in the first place. *If* I started using the opengl egg seriously, I would have done something similar to convert everything to hyphenated style, e.g. gl:load-identity, gl:matrix-mode, and maybe eventually just suggested a patch. But I haven't used it enough to mind. Nevertheless I would prefer you not modify the egg itself to do glLikeThis as it would just be a step backward (IMHO). Well, I've reverted my code to use the normal opengl egg (so everybody can use it as is). But I like your suggestion. Are defines enough (so to not generate one more function call) ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
2007/3/2, Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3/2/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2007/3/2, Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How are you rendering the text? The choices are (AFAICT) use freetype to generate bitmaps (maybe build a bitmap for each character/font combination, or maybe render a word at a time or a line at a time) and display them using glBitmap; use freetype to generate antialiased pixmaps (same choices for characters, words or lines) and use them as textures on top of polygons; or somehow convert the font to vertices and render the text entirely as filled triangles. I didn't see a way that the results of glBitmap can be transformed - it goes straight to the framebuffer, right? Besides not being antialiased. The third method (vertices) might be slow (or is it nowadays?) So I figured the second method (textures) has the most promise. But ideally it should leverage the power of the GPU somehow, rather than involving Freetype for every line of text every time it's drawn. If you render a word at a time, you can save them to GPU memory as textures and re-use them every time that word with that font is shown, while still making use of Freetype's hinting. If you render a character at a time, the set of textures becomes smaller, and you gain the ability to transform each character (like for doing text along a path, for example) but have to do hinting yourself. From freetype, I'll query each glyph as a pixmap (8bits) and store them in a single array of unsigned char. Yes, I do this C side because I don't want to write a freetype binding. Once it's done, I upload the array into video memory as a single texture. Then I create a display list for each char. To render a string, just call glCallLists. The c array is released since the Well you could use display lists for vertices too, so it's nice to be using the same call either way to actually do the rendering. texture is held by opengl. (I say I but I just used the technique from fltk and/or fox) One think is a bit problematic : each glyph/char means nearly all 8bits ascii code, i.e. 256 chars. So there's no utf-8 support right now. I don't know yet how to handle it, probably a system of cache. I understand, thought about that too. I would want to have UTF-8 support somehow, eventually. It could be done with code pages (translate runs of text from UTF-8 to language-specific code pages and then use different display lists for each code page). Maybe too much trouble...and anyway it doesn't work for some Asian languages that don't fit in 8-bit values. But if you take the one big font approach, there would be more display lists to have one for each character, than if you have one per word. I also suspect it would be more efficient to render a word at a time (one polygon for each). If you find the thing not correct, just keep in mind it's early code and I've nearly no experience ... and of course I accept help :) Yeah we are both hoping to release as open-source in the end. I was also wondering what you dislike about the existing OpenGL egg? You started over, right? Making one polygon per word, you have to create the texture every time then ? I don't know, in fact I won't try to benchmark that :) And in this case, since the primary purpose is repl/editor, one character at a time is fine. The opengl egg : I don't like its syntax but I'm nitpicking, I use it now :) Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: Re : [Chicken-users] opengl egg naming scheme
2007/3/2, Zbigniew [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Eh, while I'm at it, here's one that converts to a more canonical Scheme style. Again untested. Not totally happy with it as stuff like gl:vertex3iv and gl:tex-coord2iv should probably be gl:vertex/3iv and gl:tex-coord/2iv (maybe hyphen instead of slash) for readability. This was just an example anyway. http://3e8.org/pub/opengl-hyphen-shim.scm Fine ! At gl:ext-blend-color (commas remain), also are gl:THE_CONSTANTS correct scheme style ? Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: Re : [Chicken-users] opengl egg naming scheme
2007/3/2, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2007/3/2, Zbigniew [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Eh, while I'm at it, here's one that converts to a more canonical Scheme style. Again untested. Not totally happy with it as stuff like gl:vertex3iv and gl:tex-coord2iv should probably be gl:vertex/3iv and gl:tex-coord/2iv (maybe hyphen instead of slash) for readability. This was just an example anyway. http://3e8.org/pub/opengl-hyphen-shim.scm Fine ! At gl:ext-blend-color (commas remain), also are gl:THE_CONSTANTS correct scheme style ? Sorry, stupid me, I was talking about the token at the far right ... Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : Re : [Chicken-users] Scheme (LISP) editing
2007/3/2, Peter Keller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 02:48:48PM -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote: I was hoping the same words would often reoccur on the display at the same time. There would be a caching scheme, LRU or some such. Just an idea, not sure if it's really better or not. First off, noone would probably care if you rebind the texture for every letter, it isn't like there is a bad speed penalty for such small textures--especially for human reading speeds. Second, you could make one big texture will all of the letters on it, and use sub coordinates to pick the letters out as you render them. Depending on the resolution you want, some cards might not be able to load the texture, but these days, a 256x256 texture is probably more than enough. Unicode might be more difficult, but just load more font pages for what font you'd like to use. Third, if you wanted individual textures per letter, then you could sort the letters by frequency, load the first texture and draw all the letters in the right places on the screen, then bind the next texture. Seeing on how this is just text that a human reads, and that premature optimization is the root of all evil, I'd say do option one. Also, since you have the full bore of a 3d lighted texture mapping engine behind you, the IDE could be something fantasical to behold. Like undo buffers could go into the screen towards some vanishing point and you can select your mouse on undo regions to undo certain things whenver. It'd be sort of a visualization of vim's undo stacks behind the text, all dimmed down until you need to see it. Next idea. Ever see the dock on the new macosx? Suppose you have some code like this: file1.scm: (define foobar (thingy 1 2 3)) file2.scm: (define thingy (x y z) (+ x y z)) Then when editing file1.scm, if you drag your mouse over foobar in context (hell, might as well use chords on the keyboard and add a stroke interface), then the text all pushes to the sides (in a nice fluid manner) and the definition for (only) thingy fades in enditable form). You could then edit the definition of thingy (with all aspects of the editor available to you here), hit the back button or whatever, and go back to the original place you were. It's be like mixing ctags and hyperlinks. Debugging could be the same deal, drilling down into variables and stack frames and structures with hyperlink-like mouse clicks would make debugging stuff very awesome and fast. Then, if you'd like, you can save the entire drill down session as a virtual workspace on some big texture and move to something else the posibilities are endless. You'd make eclipse look like ed. Also, the one awesome thing about writing a scheme editor that can do all of this is that scheme is already in the ast form. You don't really have to write a serious parser to understand and catagorize everything like you do for java or C++. Doing stuff like refactoring on the fly in those languages is painful. In scheme, it could be much easier. You just walk the source and fix it in place. Parse errors can just be corrected to the next valid form and you'd probably get it right 99% of the time. Then, if someone ever invents a fundamental debugging specification format for scheme (think dwarf2 or stabs), then your debugger/editor can load it and present all sorts of awesome visual markup information for you. Highlighted scheme froms and bouncing parenthesis are so 1975. To bad that all IDEs _even today_ still basically do that (except type popups and context completion showed up in the early 90's, but when you conthink about it, it really only is an incremental evolution) and haven't even really *began* to touch the code/debugging visualization realms that only exist in programmer's heads. If you make this, don't copy what is already done, make something to behold! -pete Gee, I'm really happy to see you see the potential and have ideas ! Do you have an opinion regarding havind bare s-exp or sxml representation of the code ? Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] I need some help to edit a tree
Hi, I'd like to do something that I thought would be very easy to do with Scheme but I'm getting lost. I want to have a global *TREE* symbol to hold nested list. (Each node is either a string or a list of node, but in this mail I make the description with only lists) Initially it is (define *tree* '()), the empty tree. If I push a node, it becomes '(()). Now the fun part. I want to keep track of the current (or selected) node. Initially there's no node, after a first push, the current node is the inner list. I want to be able to add a node to the left or to the right of the current node. Also, I want to be able to swap two nodes, or push a node outside of its parent Now, I take the fisrt case : adding a node to the left of the current one. To do this, I need to SET! its parent. But of course I've no pointer to its parent. So what I've done is to use a *ACCESS-LIST* which contains a list of 'CAR, 'CDR, ... to have the path from the root to the selected node. Then I can access the current node with (define (current-node) ((apply compose (map eval *access-list*)) *tree*) (I use a list of symbol because it's niser when printed than procedures) Similarly, I've defined a PARENT-NODE procedure (just drop-right the last element of the acces list). The problem is I can't SET! (PARENT-NODE). Do you have an idea about how can I manage this ? I guess there's an elegant way to write tree editing code but I don't see. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Re: I need some help to edit a tree
2007/2/28, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, I'd like to do something that I thought would be very easy to do with Scheme but I'm getting lost. I want to have a global *TREE* symbol to hold nested list. (Each node is either a string or a list of node, but in this mail I make the description with only lists) Initially it is (define *tree* '()), the empty tree. If I push a node, it becomes '(()). Now the fun part. I want to keep track of the current (or selected) node. Initially there's no node, after a first push, the current node is the inner list. I want to be able to add a node to the left or to the right of the current node. Also, I want to be able to swap two nodes, or push a node outside of its parent Now, I take the fisrt case : adding a node to the left of the current one. To do this, I need to SET! its parent. But of course I've no pointer to its parent. So what I've done is to use a *ACCESS-LIST* which contains a list of 'CAR, 'CDR, ... to have the path from the root to the selected node. Then I can access the current node with (define (current-node) ((apply compose (map eval *access-list*)) *tree*) (I use a list of symbol because it's niser when printed than procedures) Similarly, I've defined a PARENT-NODE procedure (just drop-right the last element of the acces list). The problem is I can't SET! (PARENT-NODE). Do you have an idea about how can I manage this ? I guess there's an elegant way to write tree editing code but I don't see. Thanks, thu Instead of using a SET! at the top, I think I will try a recursive porcedure on both the tree and the access-list, and then use a SET! a the place I need. Anyway, I'm interested in hearing your ideas. Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] opengl egg naming scheme
Hi, At the beginning of my journey with Chicken, I stolen the opengl egg and repacked it: I changed its naming gl:UpperCase in glAsInC. Now I have code I'd like to share that depends on the glAsInC naming. It would not be very difficult for me to change it but I find it ugly. Is there any rationale to keep/change the extant egg ? To provide a new one ? Or is it possible to use the extant egg (the one with gl:Naming) but use it as if it was named glLikeThis ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] opengl egg naming scheme
2007/2/27, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:53 AM, minh thu wrote: Hi, At the beginning of my journey with Chicken, I stolen the opengl egg and repacked it: I changed its naming gl:UpperCase in glAsInC. Now I have code I'd like to share that depends on the glAsInC naming. It would not be very difficult for me to change it but I find it ugly. Is there any rationale to keep/change the extant egg ? To provide a new one ? Or is it possible to use the extant egg (the one with gl:Naming) but use it as if it was named glLikeThis ? (define glAsInC gl:UpperCase) Ouch, that's a lot of defines :) Thanks thu Felix's naming for the glut opengl eggs is a little odd in that he follows the C binding CamlCase style - not the Scheme way, especially since Scheme, up thru R5RS, is case-insensitive. (See http://community.schemewiki.org/?variable-naming-convention) Best Wishes, Kon Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] Release candidate for 2.6 available
2007/2/26, John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: felix winkelmann scripsit: Hi! A release canditate for CHICKEN 2.6 is now available at the web-site. If you find the time, please give it a try. Works fine under Cygwin with CMake. Is it interesting to mention it works under ubuntu with configure/gnu make ? Well it works (after recompiling all my eggs... I forgot one and it coudn't find foreign-parse). Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] Simple GUI features
2007/2/15, Tony Sidaway [EMAIL PROTECTED]: While it may be rather difficult, and possibly even impracticable, to produce a general super GUI, it should be possible for all Chicken GUI eggs to provide GUI features in a uniform way. It's really a good idea. Maybe can we pick a name and have a way to track versions of this proposal and suggestions. We can use the same way eggs are documented on the wiki ? Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] gui api design -- some thought -- long mail
A simple alternative is that often you just want to call yourself later. That is, register a timer which when it expires, will call the given function which you give when you register the timer. It can be a one-shot or a repeating timer. In my conception of the event queue, each event has a timestamp indicating when it has to be dispatched. So an event can be inserted in the queue before already present events. b) (which is related) Since a function call results from an event, you can't generate an event whose callback needs the end of the event-generating-computation (i.e. it's not asynchronous). I'd rather like to finish a computation which generates an event before processing it. If you generate the event and put it in the queue, it will be processed later when the code gets around to checking the queue, right? Yes. The code could be a scheduler (provided by the library) or user code. c) Also, say you want to code When the left mouse button is pressed (elsewhere than above my two main widgets), make the first widget be blue and the second one be red.. (Call this the blue-red exemple for later reuse.) You'll need to register a callback on the background widget. This callback needs to access (to be aware of) the two other widgets. I don't like this. Whereas in an immediate mode UI, the main do function is both finding out that the button is pressed, and drawing the blue and red widgets directly right? I guess so. An alternative way to get this behavior with callbacks would be to make it possible for every widget to register interest in any kind of event, whether or not it would seem relevant to that widget. The callback can have an extra parameter to indicate the relevance. So a normal button registers only for a click event on himself, and your special button registers for a click event anywhere, and is given a true when the click is on him, and a false if it's somewhere else, along with coordinates etc. Or maybe your special button does two registrations of two different callbacks so that the parameter is not necessary... The first part of your description sticks to my idea. Hwever, when you say 'the widget registers interest', I would say 'you register a callback that will only cares of one widget'. So to implement the button, I would make a handler for 'left-mouse-button-pressed which insert a new event, 'that-button-clicked. This step could be hidden for the user of the GUI. My Idea. I call it mine but I don't know .. maybe it's as old as the world ? - The callback mechanism is exposed and made not mandatory. - The widgets are aware of events, not the contrary (see c) above). - The event facility can be used for application-generated events. - The ol'callback way is still available. How. An event-queue keeps the not-yet-processed events. (For some application, it might be useful to timestamp events so they are dispatched later or even keep the already-processed events to be able to reverse time.) That's probably a really good idea. I think in general the trend is that as memory gets cheaper (RAM and disk both, and I believe they will be the same thing some day when nonvolatile RAM is cheap enough), you can find reasons to keep data around, timestamp it, take diffs, even build a sort of version control system for some classes of data, rather than assume that only the latest, most current data is relevant and letting new stuff overwrite old stuff. Especially, any text which the user enters himself ought to be considered sacred and never garbage-collected unless the user asks for it to be deleted. The book The Humane Interface makes this point. I was thinking a few years ago that a computer's disk ought to be structured as a giant log, where the data the user creates is appended to the log, and then data structures which the software creates to organize that data never duplicate it - they just point to it. The user enters a stream of data, and the computer makes sense of it over time. You would have built-in version control - edits are actually a special kind of diff that is appended to the log, so you will have the new version and the old version at the same time. Like CVS or subversion but implemented more efficiently. That is what early versions of the Xanadu project were about...but there is more than one way to implement it, and I can't make up my mind which is the best one (and neither could the Xanadu guys, which is why it never got done). Anyway I'm not sure that mouse events have the same kind of perennial lasting importance that text does, but in graphical documents, like diagrams, a persistent history would be nice, with unlimited undo and the ability to compare different versions. I want to build something like that when I get the GUI stuff done. Interesting point. Although it was not clear, I was thinking of some functions to get events but also query the existence of a event. We could add the possibility to keep
Re: [Chicken-users] Centralized documentation
2007/2/12, Peter Bex [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi everybody, I was having an e-mail discussion with Mario Domenech Goulart about Spiffy and the conversation turned towards egg documentation. The discussion started because Spiffy's documentation is starting to grow beyond what fits comfortably on one webpage (which is the case at this moment). We both agreed the best place would probably be on the wiki, perhaps like lighttpd does it (http://www.lighttpd.net) Here's the relevant part of the discussion: - Forwarded message from Mario Domenech Goulart [EMAIL PROTECTED] - How would [keeping a synched copy of the documentation from the wiki on call/cc.org] work if we use more than one page? Hmmm. I don't know. I'd expect we'd have an index page (which would be copied to call/cc.org's eggs directory) and the links would point to galinha. But I don't know if it is the right way. What's the point of duplicating the index then? We could just point to galinha and be done with it. That would be the more atraightforward alternative. Saves us the trouble of updating the call/cc page every time. Maybe Felix should think about ditching the egg pages altogether and simply linking to Galinha as the one and only resource for egg documentation. It would remove a lot of overhead and duplication, IMHO. I never liked having two systems which do the same thing (which is one reason why I despise GNU's policy wrt info pages over manpages). It confuses me. Where do you look for the most recent info? Who sees what system as authoritative? Do people think to update the other version at all? Do some people switch their standpoint sometime later, changing which system I need to look at? This is definitely not good for newbies. They might be scared away in confusion. You might think this is silly, but if I think it, I'm sure there are others. I see your point. My guess is that Felix wants to keep the official documentation at call/cc.org. But it's just a guess. We have to ask him. Do you think the Spiffy documentation and this documents containing tips should be the same? It could be a section in the documentation. Since it's a wiki, the nature of documentation is a lot more volatile. I'm not sure what's best yet. Ok. So let's try to solve the case of the canonical Spiffy documentation in a way we can accomodate further documents in the future. - End forwarded message - What do you think would be the best way to go from here? I really believe one canonical place for documentation is a benefit both for experienced developers as well as for newbies and the documentation maintainers. Having two or more places where documentation can be found or generated (wiki syntax, eggdoc format and plain HTML) causes a lot of confusion and duplication of work. The current situation conveys chaos and disagreement to outsiders, I think. If we want to attract more developers to get more work done (we all agree on that being a good thing), a sane documentation system would go a long way towards at least giving the appearance of a well-engineered and structured project. (Having a ticket tracking system helps similarly and I wish to thank Felix and Arto for setting it up. I agree with Felix that everybody should register a login there) Should eggdoc be deprecated in favor of svnwiki? Should the wiki be deprecated instead? Should we stick with the status quo? (IMHO, no, but I can imagine some people might feel the same about this as about version control systems) Any other ideas would be welcome. Regards, Peter -- http://sjamaan.ath.cx -- The process of preparing programs for a digital computer is especially attractive, not only because it can be economically and scientifically rewarding, but also because it can be an aesthetic experience much like composing poetry or music. -- Donald Knuth Hi, I'm really not aware of the situation but here's two things: Documentation on a wiki is nice to read and for collaboration but if it's sufficiently good to be added to the main doc (which ships with the code/library), it could be ennoying to manage. It would be practical for the maintainers to see some kind of diff between the wiki edited doc and the main doc, although for the reader there's no difference. (From another point of view, wiki pages have to belong to the doc, not to the wiki. If we add a lib or remove it, its doc is automatically added or removed) The fact there's multiple sites must not be a concern for the maintainer. Any sync has to be performed by the sites themselves, thus needing one kind of doc system. Hope it makes sense for the above questions... Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] cool 3d logo by Joshua Griffith
2007/2/12, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi! Take a look at this funky logo: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/logos/chicken-3d.png hehe, not really a logo but... :) Thanks, Joshua! (I've added it to our logos page at http://chicken.wiki.br/logos - unfortunately svnwiki doesn't like me today, so I don't know whether they appear or not) I see some logos but not the new one. thu cheers, felix ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] csc -extend with user-preprocessor-pass
Hi, I'm trying the -extend file option of csc with the following file: (user-preprocessor-pass (lambda form (display (car form)) (newline) '(display ...)) When compiling, the first top level form (of the being compiled file) is not displayed. Is it normal ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] GUI: thoughts on practicality.
2007/2/8, Tony Sidaway [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's been my feeling for some time that it should be possible for a Scheme programmer to create windows with menus, buttons, and whatnot, with a reasonable expectation that the details of implementation can be left to low level drivers. Furthermore, the Scheme programmer should be able to write simple code to do simple things. The code should be simple but the implementation can be complex. At the high level I don't care whether the widget I'm handling is written in C, C++, Java, Common Lisp or Scheme. I don't want to have to care whether my code is running on native Windows, Cygwin, X, Macos or a cellphone GUI. I don't want to have to care whether the rendering library is Cairo or SDL. These are inconsequential fripperies and unwanted dependencies that, if I let them, will seal my code into a tomb as the years go by. So it seems to me that the way to produce really good, durable and reliable Scheme code for GUI programming is to concentrate on a good high level design. What I suggest here won't satisfy the requirements of game designers, or programmers who think the GIMP needs to be rewritten in Scheme, and it might even fall short of what most people would expect of a modern GUI. This is because I think we already have enough Window managers, skin systems, game toolkits and the like, and nearly all the successful ones are written in a low level language. Rather than duplicate that work, these suggestions are intended to enable a Scheme programmer to write an event-controlled, graphical user interface so that he can communicate with the user in a way that the user finds intuitive. and to do so without tying him to a particular brand of GUI. Eventually I will have to wade deeply into all the popular GUI designs and come up with one that describes the basics of all of them to a level of detail that would be useful to a high level programmer. But for now I'll list some of the things that I think are required in a useful high level GUI design for Scheme. * Geometry: the dimensions of each display device must be available to the high level program. Both pixels and if physical dimensions. ** If the latter are not available to the driver, it should provide intelligent estimates and say so. ** The dimensions of GUI objects controlled by the program should be the size requested by the program, or a reasonable approximation thereof. * Color: a reasonable level of color control must be provided. * Time: the time of each event must be available to the high level program in a usable form. srfi-18? * HIgh level event handlers. a Scheme closure may be assigned to handle any event or bundle of events the program is interested in. * High level containers: there must be a way of expressing a hierarchical relationship between widgets. This should be coupled to the container mechanism of the underlying GUI where possible, but should not depend on such a mechanism existing. * Configuration: the application must be reasonably configurable at run time. The native configuration tools should *usually* take precedence, and the high level GUI works within the constraints set by those tools. The program *may* be permitted to break this. Desirables: * Queues: we need a standard for queues. whether based on Chicken, Scheme48, Gauche or whatever. High level event queues would be based on that standard. So in your conception, accessing the event queue must be explicitly possible ? Usually, you can just provide a callback and wait for the system call it. Cheers, thu * Time: the external form of this should follow IETF RFC 3339 and any superseding standard. * Foreign function interface. A reasonably abstract foreign function interface should be provided to enable drivers to be ported from one Scheme implementation to another. Adherence to that ffi should not be mandatory. ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] GUI: thoughts on practicality.
2007/2/8, Tony Sidaway [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 2/8/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So in your conception, accessing the event queue must be explicitly possible ? Usually, you can just provide a callback and wait for the system call it. A translating dispatcher might be used for implementation, basically a bit of glue code that listens to the native queue and translates to a standard format, and for some higher level features such as intercomponent communication a queuing system would be a good feature. I find it funny that it's something closer to CSP (or Erlang). Since Chicken has lightweight multithreading, we could turn it into a node (in Erlang terminology). In fact it's something I might be interested in when I'll dig into Chicken's implementation. Again sorry for my 'random' (Brandon would call it 'insane' :) ideas... thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] cross-platform gui toolkit
[snip] RD is a non-issue for OpenGL windowing. We're not going to do enough to get ourselves into trouble. I'm sure Thu will cook up some event handling experiments, and at some point I'll try my own hand at it. What kind of experiments? Hi, I think Brandon talked about the (long) mail I've send about gui api design. But it's not intended as a Chicken community project (although I've nothing against). It's simply something I was thinking for a while and then Felix's gui project appeared, so I thought I could share with you what I was thinking. And if it comes to be a source of ideas for Felix's project, then good ! Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] gui api design -- some thought -- long mail
Hi All. I'm aware of two kinds of GUI event response mechanisms. (I'm dropping phooey or cello since I don't know them. Furthermore, their implementation is probably too different of what I want to talk here.) The first one is Immediate Mode GUI and the second one is the so classic Callbacks, event-driven mechanism. In this text, I'll try to say why I don't like the second one (I won't talk about the first one.) and provide an idea that only appeared clearly to me yesterday (although it's really simple). This idea avoids what I don't like about the Callbacks while letting the user still use them. I first thought I would implement it a bit (on top of the project with Brandon) before talking about it but I need to write to not forget. Also, those who are interested in Felix's GUI project might like it (and give some feedaback !). Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, I just have some ideas :) but I hope to say not to much stupid things. Immediate Mode GUI. The idea is to have the drawing and event-responsing of a widget happens at the same time. It thus needs some decent framerate. It means no callback : the code handling the event is written alongside the code displaying the widget (and the code testing the existence of the event). It can also means no data structure for the widgets (just like you can write a rectangle with opengl without having to store a Rectangle object; the code is the object). Google for references. See also 'A Zero Memory Widget Library'. ZMW uses a datastructure when traversing the code; it's necessary if you want to calculate the size of a widget which is made of other (unknown) widgets. Callbacks. Classical GUI libraries let the programmer write an application that responds to user actions : the A button is clicked or the Y window is moused-over. The code is bound to the event by registering a so called callback (simply a lambda abstraction on this side of the world, an ugly in-line class instanciation (and interface implementation) in the Java world). So basically, a function is called back when a gui event arises. The mechanism by which events are detected and functions called back is hidden (transparent for the programmer). What I Don't Like About Callbacks. a) Putted simply, you can't mix gui events with application specific events. b) (which is related) Since a function call results from an event, you can't generate an event whose callback needs the end of the event-generating-computation (i.e. it's not asynchronous). I'd rather like to finish a computation which generates an event before processing it. c) Also, say you want to code When the left mouse button is pressed (elsewhere than above my two main widgets), make the first widget be blue and the second one be red.. (Call this the blue-red exemple for later reuse.) You'll need to register a callback on the background widget. This callback needs to access (to be aware of) the two other widgets. I don't like this. My Idea. I call it mine but I don't know .. maybe it's as old as the world ? - The callback mechanism is exposed and made not mandatory. - The widgets are aware of events, not the contrary (see c) above). - The event facility can be used for application-generated events. - The ol'callback way is still available. How. An event-queue keeps the not-yet-processed events. (For some application, it might be useful to timestamp events so they are dispatched later or even keep the already-processed events to be able to reverse time.) For some event, the current state is kept. Exemple: You might not want to have code run each time the enter key is pressed but only want to be able to query its state; is it pressed ? Or you might want to be able to respond to the many events that have appeared before your code is run. You already see the moment when an event is generated and the moment when it is processed are no tied. Also, sampling for events and processing them are not tied. The base API let you test the existence of an event. The test can be blocking or not. It can removes the event from the queue or not. (The api has to be extended so an event can be removed automatically when every interested widget has already received it.) (This last point let you write the blue-red program: the two widgets are aware of the events.) At this point, we have access to events. But how (when) the code accessing the events is run ? How the gui event-polling is done ? Here again we gain some flexibility. You can write yourself a loop that calls one API function to pump gui events then calls the event-testing-related API functions. Or you can use an API function set to let you register functions to be called regularly (independently of events) and then launch an API- provided main loop. Or register functions to be called only for some specific events. Yep, we approached the well-known callback mechanism. To make it really feels like that, we can provide a function which makes the widget generate an event *and*
[Chicken-users] do I use define-foreign-variable correctly ?
#! #include X.h #include keysym.h # (define-foreign-variable c-escape-key int XK_Escape) (define escape-key c-escape-key) Do I need to have those two lines too be able to use escape-key as a Scheme symbol for the C #defined XK_Escape value ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] do I use define-foreign-variable correctly ?
2007/2/7, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Feb 7, 2007, at 6:41 AM, minh thu wrote:
#!
#include X.h
#include keysym.h
#
(define-foreign-variable c-escape-key int XK_Escape)
(define escape-key c-escape-key)
Do I need to have those two lines too be able to use escape-key as a
Scheme symbol for the C #defined XK_Escape value ?
Umm, depends. Do you want it visible outside of the compilation unit
(i.e. exportable)?
The escape-key, yes; the c-escape-key, no.
then '(define escape-key (foreign-value
XK_Escape int))' is enough.
Thanks !
(I might make the symbol uppercase just
to emphasize it is a constant.)
Ok.
Also 'define-foreign-variable' has
overhead that you don't want for a constant, it isn't mutable so
conversion should only be done once. ('foreign-value' is a wrapper
around 'define-foreign-variable' that creates the variable, gets its'
value, throws away the variable, returning only the value.)
Do I understand correctly : define-foreign-variable has overhead in this
case since I don't need it to be mutable and foreign-value has not
that overhead ?
Thanks,
thu
___
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[Chicken-users] idiomatic/usual way of file-based configuration in Scheme
Hi folks, I was wondering if there was something like Java's properties files that is commonly used in Scheme. (The reference to Java is because I learned it, not because I like it :) It would just amount to read a list of key/value pairs in Scheme syntax. Or maybe a triple if the type is given. What do you use ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] idiomatic/usual way of file-based configuration in Scheme
2007/2/6, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:49 AM, Mario Domenech Goulart wrote: Hello Thu, On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:52:36 +0100 minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering if there was something like Java's properties files that is commonly used in Scheme. (The reference to Java is because I learned it, not because I like it :) It would just amount to read a list of key/value pairs in Scheme syntax. Or maybe a triple if the type is given. What do you use ? A simple approach would be dumping the representation of scheme objects (e.g., lists) to a file: csi (define my-list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (a b c))) csi (with-output-to-file my-file (lambda () (pp my-list))) csi (with-input-from-file my-file read) ((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (a b c)) There is also the s11n egg: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/s11n.html PS: I don't know what Java's properties files are, I considered the second paragraph from your message. Best wishes, Mario Take a look at the SRFI-29 egg. Although I was not asking about for l10n issue, it might become handy. Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] cross-platform gui toolkit
Hi all, [snip] If I had a simple, GUI toolkit running on Linux, OS X and Windows, binds native widgets, has a simple basic graphics API (OpenGL would be ideal), is smaller than 1-2 MB, provides text-editing (multiline), buttons, images, frames, checkboxes, and a couple more widgets, simple menus, then I'd be happy. About the API. You'd like to go opengl-style, right (stateful or stateless ?) ? What about a xhtml/css/javascript style ? I mean, of course, everything in Scheme but with content/presentation/logic separated... Otherwise, it would be the classical event-based (with callbacks) mechanism ? I wonder what other means could be used. Maybe some kind of message passing instead of function calling ? (any idea of gui toolkit for erlang ?) Or some kind of spreadcheet-like (I think to phooey in haskell or cello in common lisp). Sorry, I understand the goal is to be practical and cheap for the time and effort of the community :) Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] other leading Schemes
2007/2/2, Brandon J. Van Every [EMAIL PROTECTED]: minh thu wrote: Hi Brandon, although you first start your mail with a question, what's the underlying intention ? I can't understand why there's so much discussion about 'community size' and 'growing' and so on... it's the same on every mailing list I've read. Don't take my question offensively; it's really not the goal... The underlying intention is for programming not to suck. That and to actually make money. Programming pretty much sucks when it creates lots of busywork for you + doesn't pay the bills. You get caught in a cycle of working on unprofitable trivia, suddenly wondering how you'll keep the roof over your head, and realizing the gruntwork has kept you from accomplishing any significant goal anyways. When this goes on for a long time, you come to realize that the language you're using is not better than any other crap out there, no matter how sophisticated or advantageous it's supposed to be. It's actually a big waste of time. You just waste your time in different ways than a mainstream language. You're saying programming sucks when 1/ you want it to make money but got stuck in silly details, 2/ and also the language used is of minor importance. 1/ There's different way to make money with programming but to get stuck in silly details, I would think you're talking of some kind of personal project. Right ? Because I would think also that for ordered tasks, it's perfectly acceptable to use any language to get the job done. 2/ Language used is of minor importance : why ? Because java is bulky but has a lot of libraries, and because Scheme is slick but with not enough tools ? Or because even if Scheme is nicer than java you have gruntworks that you woudn't have with java ? In fact, I thought a nicer language would make the work (even groundwork) more pleasant and faster do. At least with the mainstream languages, there's money in them, you can get paid for them. If you accidentally become well versed in the trivia of C++, Java, or C#, you can make big $$ at that. Do you mean being employed ? Or at least working for out sourced project, not in-house project (i.e. the language used is of importance for the one who ordered the project) ? With a marginal language like Scheme, nobody cares. You go hungry. Same question. I'm not ready to give up on Chicken yet, or open source in general. I think there must be a profitable business model in it somewhere. But I'm quite aware of all the support and RD jobs that must get done, to make a language that really is pleasant to use. So I see community organization as key. You mean the language is not useable as-is... Academics and students don't feel these issues. They've got financial support for their work. So they can work on languages like Scheme that don't make most people any money. ... but is ok for non-making-money work. right ? Some people actually use Scheme as part of their commercial business model. But they are few and far between. Their economic results are not easily reproduced by most people. Whereas anyone can learn C++, Java, and C# and then go make money. I have difficulties to explain my misunderstanding of what you're saying. I have the feeling you're mixing different issues : languages (mainstream and others) and business models. I think you're saying at least, with java, you can be still ok making money but forget that it would imply a totally different way of making so than when you're saying even with Scheme, groudwork gets you stucked. Hoping it makes sense, cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : [Chicken-users] thread-sleep! for less than a second
2007/1/15, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/13/07, Daishi Kato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, That was something that I could not notice either at first. Another issue for me is that I want to declare fixnum when all other procedures are fixnum arithmetic. So, I wished thread-sleep-millis! Any workaround for this? Maybe making a tiny egg for this? I have added it (called `thread-sleep!/ms') to srfi-18. Here is the patch: diff -rN -u old-chicken/srfi-18.scm new-chicken/srfi-18.scm --- old-chicken/srfi-18.scm 2007-01-15 20:18:45.0 +0100 +++ new-chicken/srfi-18.scm 2007-01-15 20:18:45.0 +0100 @@ -281,16 +281,25 @@ (##sys#setslot thread 3 'ready) (##sys#add-to-ready-queue thread) ) ) -(define thread-sleep! - (lambda (tm) -(unless tm (##sys#signal-hook #:type-error 'thread-sleep! invalid timeout argument tm)) +(define thread-sleep!) +(define thread-sleep!/ms) + +(let () + (define (sleep limit loc) (##sys#call-with-current-continuation (lambda (return) - (let ([limit (##sys#compute-time-limit tm)] -[ct ##sys#current-thread] ) + (let ((ct ##sys#current-thread)) (##sys#setslot ct 1 (lambda () (return (##core#undefined (##sys#thread-block-for-timeout! ct limit) -(##sys#schedule) ) ) ) ) ) +(##sys#schedule) ) ) ) ) + (set! thread-sleep! +(lambda (tm) + (unless tm (##sys#signal-hook #:type-error 'thread-sleep! invalid timeout argument tm)) + (sleep (##sys#compute-time-limit tm)) ) ) + (set! thread-sleep!/ms +(lambda (ms) + (##sys#check-exact ms 'thread-sleep!/ms) + (sleep (fx+ (##sys#fudge 16) ms)) ) ) ) cheers, felix Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] bash completion for chicken-setup
Hi, I've added an item to [http://galinha.ucpel.tche.br:8080//tips and tricks] (the last one) entitled 'bash completion for chicken tools'. There's only support for chicken-setup now. Comments, suggestions, etc, ... welcome! Hope some of you like it ;) Cheers, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: Re : [Chicken-users] various questions
2007/1/12, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/11/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you elaborate on this? Do you want to let the user specify the actual record type, or it's contents? The record type. Say mailbox use a list-based queue implementation (so 'mailbox' in the following sentences is a hypothetical one). Could I provide another implementation of a queue to be used by mailbox? Or could the author of mailbox make it possible by providing different implementations ? I don't know module systems but maybe my question is wheter we can parametrize a module when loading (instanciating ?) it. Well, this is what is called functors in SML, for example: parameterized modules. You provide a module implementing the operations on a specific datatype and pass this module to your mailbox module. A (very basic) implementation of such functors is in the lexmod egg: http://chicken.wiki.br/lexmod cheers, felix Thank you. For the thread/print issue, I will retry and maybe post the offending code (after cleaning it of irrevlevent things). thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] writing from a thread issue
Hi, I made a script of my session to exhibit the problem: No output is given by the thread but the blank lines. Thanks for any help, thu Follows the output of my session (in a console in linux). $ cat weird.scm ;;; weird.scm ;; ;; 12.01.2007 ;; ;; Exhibits non-writing from a thread. ;; (declare (uses srfi-18)) (define (poll-for-event) (define (poll) ((write in poll-for-event) ; not shown (newline) ; shown (flush-output) ; changes nothing (thread-sleep! 1) (poll))) (poll)) (define (go) (thread-start! poll-for-event)) $ csc -s weird.scm $ csi -require-extension weird ) ___ (__/_) /) ,/) / (/ _ (/_ _ __ // )__(_(__/(___(/_/ (_ (__) Version 2, Build 3 - linux-unix-gnu-x86 - [ dload ptables ] (c)2000-2005 Felix L. Winkelmann ; loading ./weird.so ... #;1 (go) #thread: thread0 #;2 $ # I've done a ctrl-c. Notice the blank lines after #;2 ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] writing from a thread issue
2007/1/12, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/12/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (define (poll-for-event) (define (poll) ((write in poll-for-event) ; not shown That line above has a ( to much. The arguments become evaluated, but before the write is executed, the call to poll is. The write is in operator position and might be executed after the (poll). Just remove the parens around the forms in poll. cheers, felix Oh thanks, I've looked at something like this but didn't find (so stupid). And sorry too, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : [Chicken-users] various questions
2007/1/12, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:31 AM, felix winkelmann wrote: On 1/11/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you elaborate on this? Do you want to let the user specify the actual record type, or it's contents? The record type. Say mailbox use a list-based queue implementation (so 'mailbox' in the following sentences is a hypothetical one). Could I provide another implementation of a queue to be used by mailbox? Or could the author of mailbox make it possible by providing different implementations ? I don't know module systems but maybe my question is wheter we can parametrize a module when loading (instanciating ?) it. Well, this is what is called functors in SML, for example: parameterized modules. You provide a module implementing the operations on a specific datatype and pass this module to your mailbox module. A (very basic) implementation of such functors is in the lexmod egg: http://chicken.wiki.br/lexmod The 'levenshtein' egg has a generic algorithm, it works w/ strings or vectors. It uses the facilities of 'procedure-surface' to provide the appropriate procedures. Thanks for pointing this. I'll try for the moment to stick to somewhat standard Sheme because I'm fairly noob and don't want to learn another library (in addition of Scheme and chicken specifics). Probably later though. thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] thread-sleep! for less than a second
Hi, Question again, my apologies ;) Is it possible to have a thread sleep some milliseconds ? I want to have a thread poll xlib for some events but not in tight loop neither only every second (thus something in between). I guess also than thread-yield! gives cpu to other threads but still makes a tight loop in case the other threads want to sleep! I can't use c sleeping function, otherwise the whole chicken runtime will go to bed. Is there any workaround ? Maybe I can add the feature to chicken itself ? Thanks, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] thread-sleep! for less than a second
2007/1/12, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Jan 12, 2007, at 1:36 PM, minh thu wrote: Hi, Question again, my apologies ;) Is it possible to have a thread sleep some milliseconds ? thread-sleep! (the seconds do not need to be a whole number) Tks, I didn't see it in the chicken doc or srfi-18. thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] various questions
Is there support for choosing a version of an extension, for example if the new version deprecates something my application uses ? No, this is currently not possible. Something like this is possible, if you name the extensions carefully. I have done something like that. I used require to load the extension. If you have two extension, ext1.so and ext2.so, both with an exported function ext-test, then you can load the required extension like this: (require (string-append ext (car (command-line-arguments (ext-test) I'm not sure whether calling require is the right thing to do. But it worked for me. Groetjes, Peter. It means that it's possible if a common scheme (not the dialect;-) is used by everybody... I thought to something like this when posting my question : http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library_versioning_policy (You can also follow the links at the bottom of the page). To be clear, I'm not requesting anything; I just asked if something was feasible. But I let you know the idea :) Thank you, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] various questions
2007/1/11, felix winkelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/10/07, minh thu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I've used PRINT, DISPLAY, WRITE, and NEWLINE in a thread created from csi (the actual thread-making function is in a .so). The thread is just a loop waiting one second before the next iteration. Strangely, I tried many times, and some times I have no output but got NEWLINE. Another time I had output. I used FLUSH-OUTPUT but it changed nothing. Do you run csi in a console window or in emacs? Is this on a UNIX system? Oh sorry, it is in a console in linux. I see the (previous) text scrolling because the NEWLINE seems to work but each line is blank. Is it possible to require-extension on different extensions but each of them having the same exported functions, for example by putting explicitly the extension in a namespace when requiring it ? No, you would have to use a module system (like provided by syntax-case, for example). I will look at it. Is there support for choosing a version of an extension, for example if the new version deprecates something my application uses ? No, this is currently not possible. Ok. Something like mailbox wraps an adt. Is it possible to write it so the user of the extension can choose another adt to be wrapped (without compiling) ? Could you elaborate on this? Do you want to let the user specify the actual record type, or it's contents? The record type. Say mailbox use a list-based queue implementation (so 'mailbox' in the following sentences is a hypothetical one). Could I provide another implementation of a queue to be used by mailbox? Or could the author of mailbox make it possible by providing different implementations ? I don't know module systems but maybe my question is wheter we can parametrize a module when loading (instanciating ?) it. Thank you, thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re: [Chicken-users] Subversion support misguided IMHO
snip I think Peter is asking for faster one-way Darcs -- Subversion mirroring, so that platforms without Darcs can get a more accurate read-only dump of the source pool. Perhaps Tailor can help with that. I don't know what the current mechanism is; it sounds like it is not automated. Peter could dig into that if he wants, whatever the best solution is. I'm sure we could set him up with the needed permissions and administrative contacts. For read-only code, I think darcs can produce easily tarballs. What's the advantage of having the code via svn and not via a tarball (since even an svn diff would be useless) ? Cheers, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] hacking the mailbox egg
Hi, I'd like to write a small library along the lines of the mailbox egg. The goal is to have a queue where the elements are ordered by some kind of value attached to them (in my case, it will be the moment when the element has to be extracted from the queue). Reading the code, and being fairly new to scheme and chicken, I have some questions: - why is there a queue.scm file ? Is it because usage of the extras unit can be disabled ? - what are those ##sys#xxx and ##core#xxx functions ? is it permitted (good style) to use them ? where are they documented ? When/if I complete the writing of such a library, would it be good to add it to Eggs Unlimited ? Have you an idea for its name ? ordered-mailbox ? Thanks a lot vo minh thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : [Chicken-users] hacking the mailbox egg
On Jan 7, 2007, at 10:14 AM, minh thu wrote: Hi, I'd like to write a small library along the lines of the mailbox egg. The goal is to have a queue where the elements are ordered by some kind of value attached to them (in my case, it will be the moment when the element has to be extracted from the queue). So essentially a priority queue. Exactly, just forgot the name... Reading the code, and being fairly new to scheme and chicken, I have some questions: - why is there a queue.scm file ? Is it because usage of the extras unit can be disabled ? No. Because the extras unit doesn't disable interrupts. Mailbox doesn't synchronize access to its globals explicitly but disables interrupts, so the entire file is a critical-section. Does that mean that when a file disables interrupts, when calling code from another unit, it could be interrupted ? So using a (disable-interrupts) declaration is a bit like making all methods of a java class synchronised ? - what are those ##sys#xxx and ##core#xxx functions ? is it permitted (good style) to use them ? where are they documented ? Permitted, yes. Good style? Well, I wouldn't use them unless necessary, or unless hacking in someone else's code that does use them. You may notice that 'queue.scm' defines wrappers around the '##sys' access routines so the main body of the code calls very few directly. And some operations are just not available outside of the sys namespace, in which case they must be used. Documented, no. Thanks, but, what are they ? What can I use instead of ##sys#slot ? In the present case, is it ok to use them ? When/if I complete the writing of such a library, would it be good to add it to Eggs Unlimited ? Have you an idea for its name ? ordered-mailbox ? Sure. Ok, thanks ! mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
[Chicken-users] Using c code from interpreted code
Hi, I'm new to chicken and would like to ask a few things. I'd like to use opengl in chicken, via glx. I haven't seen the glx extension in the xlib bindings. So I think to write a few c code to make an opengl context. That code would have just a few functions to export for chicken (maybe just one or two). So I tried to use foreign-code as a starter and the interpreter complained. I understand that foreign-* are available only for compiled code. Right ? But I've seen the 'inline' eeg. Is the code written with 'inline' compiled in the same way when using csc ? In fact the desired behaviour would be : - using a 'dollar' syntax - working in csi - working in csc in the usual way. Is it possible ? How is the usual way to write mixed scheme/c program ? I think of writing a .so with a corresponding .h then let chicken do the rest with the foreign-* functions. Is-it right ? (I coud'nt find a description for that in the documentation on the wiki) - Something a bit different. I tried the example code on the xlib egg page in csi within emacs with quack. The description said the window should close after the first or second event. The observed behavior is: the window remains visible and the csi prompt is back/availble. Is the code run in a separate thread ? I don't see why it would be so. Thanks a lot, VO Minh Thu ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
Re : Re : Re : [Chicken-users] hacking the mailbox egg
2007/1/7, Kon Lovett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 snip As you said, the first lines of queue.scm define some %car,... to 1/ be inlined 2/ use ##sys#slot Is it mandatory to do this to be included in the disabling- interrupts file ? Both of 1/ and 2/ ? No. Is it not mandatory to ever use a sys namespace routine (there are a few exceptions) one should try not to use such routines. Do not be confused by the use of ##sys#slot, etc. by mailbox. As I said earlier it is the style of the original author historical to boot. Ok, I didn't fully understand. If the above is true, what are the real primitives of chicken (that can thus be used without 'getting out' of the file) ? I do not understand ... without 'getting out' of the file. Well, I meant without running code that re-enables interrupts. And I guessed the re-enabling is done when executing code from somewhere else. But I don't see what is the somewhere else. I.e. I don't see what triggers the re-enabling. Stay away from the true primitives of Chicken. These are inlined C code. Chicken is primarily a compiler. You can see these things by looking in the .scm source for Chicken units, like library.scm. Whenever possible do not stray from R5RS or a SRFI. Your situation is a little special since you are hacking an existing egg that does stray (mostly for no good reason except history). You can freely intermix '(##sys#slot p 1)' '(cdr p)', they are the same thing. The compiler will even recognize 'cdr' inline it. Again, the use of ##sys# stuff in mailbox is historical not an example for preferred style. Except for '##sys#thread-unblock!' '##sys#delq' which are unavailable in the global namespace. '##sys#current-thread', '##sys#structure?', '##sys#make-structure' are available in other forms, ##sys#check-structure can be done differently. Ok. I will post my code to get feedback and try to not use the sys and core namespace. Thanks, and sorry for those lengthy questions, mt No problem. Thanks for making look inside the mailbox code. I spotted a bug. (Fixed.) Great :) Cheers, mt ___ Chicken-users mailing list Chicken-users@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/chicken-users
