RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13366t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I would think that you may want to complete the CCIE process before you make such statements. I can assure you you will be doing more than reading a Cisco Press book or two. - Original Message - From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders. Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network product developers. But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs, an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism, and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference within easy reach that will give me that information. I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered...1518...the first in the CIDR RFC series. I was too tired to realize why my colleagues went into hysterics. As to wanting to be, Aristotle: To be is to do Nietzsche: To do is to be Sinatra:Do be do be do You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Just read the CCIE for dummies! (and pigs can fly) Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Curtis Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I would think that you may want to complete the CCIE process before you make such statements. I can assure you you will be doing more than reading a Cisco Press book or two. - Original Message - From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:42 AM Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
You forgot Shakespear : to be or not to be Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders. Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network product developers. But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs, an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism, and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference within easy reach that will give me that information. I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered...1518...the first in the CIDR RFC series. I was too tired to realize why my colleagues went into hysterics. As to wanting to be, Aristotle: To be is to do Nietzsche: To do is to be Sinatra:Do be do be do You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
You forgot Shakespear : to be or not to be Ole That's algebra, not philosophy, when stated 2B | !2B ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders. Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network product developers. But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs, an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism, and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference within easy reach that will give me that information. I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered...1518...the first in the CIDR RFC series. I was too tired to realize why my colleagues went into hysterics. As to wanting to be, Aristotle: To be is to do Nietzsche: To do is to be Sinatra:Do be do be do You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
n AND 00101011 or n NOT 00101011 -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 11:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] You forgot Shakespear : to be or not to be Ole That's algebra, not philosophy, when stated 2B | !2B ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders. Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network product developers. But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs, an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism, and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference within easy reach that will give me that information. I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered...1518...the first in the CIDR RFC series. I was too tired to realize why my colleagues went into hysterics. As to wanting to be, Aristotle: To be is to do Nietzsche: To do is to be Sinatra:Do be do be do You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I like this one: 2B+D | ! 2B+D? ;-) P. At 12:34 PM 7/23/01, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: You forgot Shakespear : to be or not to be Ole That's algebra, not philosophy, when stated 2B | !2B ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders. Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network product developers. But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs, an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism, and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference within easy reach that will give me that information. I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered...1518...the first in the CIDR RFC series. I was too tired to realize why my colleagues went into hysterics. As to wanting to be, Aristotle: To be is to do Nietzsche: To do is to be Sinatra:Do be do be do You sounded like an engineer want a be and don't have an engineering degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer not just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree. Just my 2 cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Howard, stop my head is going to explode! Tim Medley - CCNP+Voice Network Architect VoIP Group iReadyWorld -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Howard C. Berkowitz Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13301t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I knew I should have taken that Deploying DSPF session at networkers Tim Medley - CCNP+Voice Network Architect VoIP Group iReadyWorld -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to deploy DSPF here at work. - Original Message - From: Tony Medeiros To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13300t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Howard and Chuck are both in rare form this evening! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Medley Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Howard, stop my head is going to explode! Tim Medley - CCNP+Voice Network Architect VoIP Group iReadyWorld -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Howard C. Berkowitz Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13308t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I agree with what you said about music and math being correlated, because I play an instrument and math has always come easy to me ( I know that this is not evidence enough for a theory like that, but, it works for me ). My question is what is the best way to get into network software engineering? What books should I read? What courses are most relevant in the undergraduate curriculum? I am trying to complete my computer science degree now and I am one test away from a CCNP. I like networking but I also like programming. I find it hard to commit to one, so I figured I might as well combine the two. So I need some advice on how to enter the market for network software engineering? My guess is I will I have to read all of Richard Steven's books. Thanks Paul From: Priscilla Oppenheimer Reply-To: Priscilla Oppenheimer To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:37:52 -0400 I'm sure there are people who are good at both types of tasks: CCIE tasks and software development tasks. For both jobs, you have to be smart, that's for sure. Well, thinking about the work of Howard Gardner, who wrote some terrific books on multiple intelligences, I would change that. To be a CCIE or software developer you need logical/mathematical intelligence. Linguistic intelligence helps but is not required for either. There seems to be a high correlation between logical/mathematical and musical intelligence. I suspect that for many support jobs, you need body/kinesthetic intelligence and spatial intelligence, which many software developers do not have. At my local high school I help with both hardware and Cisco classes. The school requires the hardware class before the Cisco classes. A certain set of students do really well in the hardware class because they have excellent body and spatial intelligence. They can take apart and rebuild a computer in seconds. Then they get to the Cisco Academy class and are expected to read volumes of material on the theory of networking, deal with obscure subnetting scenarios, learn file-naming conventions for Cisco IOS, pass a written multiple-choice test every other week (requiring linguistic intelligence), etc. They spend almost no time building networks. Most of the students who were stars in the hardware class do terribly in the Cisco classes. It's sad to see them decide that maybe they aren't good with computers afterall. I try to build up their egos again, because I think the Cisco Academy materials are completely wrong for a high school and don't take into account that the networking field needs people of different types of intelligence. That's my $0001. I'd love to hear those blues, Ole! ;-) I love the blues. Priscilla At 09:07 AM 7/19/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's like when I'm playing my guitar. Sometimes, I grap my Jackson and play Satriani or Nuno, and at other times, I grap my handmade Spanish guitar and play classical music, but most often I use my SRV signature stratocaster and play blues. The fun begins when you're mixing them all together - that's when you start playing like Blackmore or Yngwie... After that being said, I realize that keeping up with new technologies in both areas can be tough and very time dependant, but it can be done. Another 0010 cents. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Phil Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:56 AM To: Ole Drews Jensen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Ole, I think I know where Priscilla is coming from. I developed software for 10 years (mainly C/C++) before turning to Network Engineering. The difference in the roles in my experience has been dramatic. Software Engineering requires an intensity of concentration that I can only compare to playing chess. I was rarely required to interact with customers and as a result my interpersonal skills didn't develop. I took my first job in Networking for a major bank. This was very open plan and one day the team leader called the regular meeting. Everyone shuffled towards the meeting room EXCEPT me. 45 mins later my team leader came looking for me. I was still at my desk, deep in concentration. She couldn't stop
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Hi Cisco Kidd, Once the market turns around again, my guess is that you will have no problem finding a job with one of the major networking firms. With a computer science degree and a CCNP, you'll be hot. And that's the best way to get into network software engineering. On the job training! At some companies, college grads start out in software testing rather than development, but it would only take a year or so for you to move into software engineering. And at some companies you could go right into software engineering I would think. I was going to suggest W. Richard Steven's books, but I see you already mentioned that. Douglas Comer's more advanced books are good too. I'm sure others will give you advice too. We're good at that on this list! ;-) Priscilla At 10:53 AM 7/20/01, Cisco KIdd78 wrote: I agree with what you said about music and math being correlated, because I play an instrument and math has always come easy to me ( I know that this is not evidence enough for a theory like that, but, it works for me ). My question is what is the best way to get into network software engineering? What books should I read? What courses are most relevant in the undergraduate curriculum? I am trying to complete my computer science degree now and I am one test away from a CCNP. I like networking but I also like programming. I find it hard to commit to one, so I figured I might as well combine the two. So I need some advice on how to enter the market for network software engineering? My guess is I will I have to read all of Richard Steven's books. Thanks Paul From: Priscilla Oppenheimer Reply-To: Priscilla Oppenheimer To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:37:52 -0400 I'm sure there are people who are good at both types of tasks: CCIE tasks and software development tasks. For both jobs, you have to be smart, that's for sure. Well, thinking about the work of Howard Gardner, who wrote some terrific books on multiple intelligences, I would change that. To be a CCIE or software developer you need logical/mathematical intelligence. Linguistic intelligence helps but is not required for either. There seems to be a high correlation between logical/mathematical and musical intelligence. I suspect that for many support jobs, you need body/kinesthetic intelligence and spatial intelligence, which many software developers do not have. At my local high school I help with both hardware and Cisco classes. The school requires the hardware class before the Cisco classes. A certain set of students do really well in the hardware class because they have excellent body and spatial intelligence. They can take apart and rebuild a computer in seconds. Then they get to the Cisco Academy class and are expected to read volumes of material on the theory of networking, deal with obscure subnetting scenarios, learn file-naming conventions for Cisco IOS, pass a written multiple-choice test every other week (requiring linguistic intelligence), etc. They spend almost no time building networks. Most of the students who were stars in the hardware class do terribly in the Cisco classes. It's sad to see them decide that maybe they aren't good with computers afterall. I try to build up their egos again, because I think the Cisco Academy materials are completely wrong for a high school and don't take into account that the networking field needs people of different types of intelligence. That's my $0001. I'd love to hear those blues, Ole! ;-) I love the blues. Priscilla At 09:07 AM 7/19/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's like when I'm playing my guitar. Sometimes, I grap my Jackson and play Satriani or Nuno, and at other times, I grap my handmade Spanish guitar and play classical music, but most often I use my SRV signature stratocaster and play blues. The fun begins when you're mixing them all together - that's when you start playing like Blackmore or Yngwie... After that being said, I realize that keeping up with new technologies in both areas can be tough and very time dependant, but it can be done. Another 0010 cents. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Phil Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:56 AM To: Ole Drews Jensen
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
The funny thing is when you combine Music, Programming and Mathematics. I made a Guitar Pascal Unit years ago, and had to figure out the formel for how much a frequency changes when you move up one fret on the guitar. Well, since you have to move twelve frets to reach the next octave, and a higher octave is the double frequency of the lower, the calculation is Frequency * 2^(1/12). If you take 440 (A) and multiply it with 2^(1/12) twelve times, you have 880 (also A) :-) As for book recommendations - I don't know, but try and search for programming and networking together on Amazon.com. And no, I have not tried to connect my guitar to my routers yet, but I can imagine some cool effects with Split Horizon and Load Balancing... Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Cisco KIdd78 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 1:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I agree with what you said about music and math being correlated, because I play an instrument and math has always come easy to me ( I know that this is not evidence enough for a theory like that, but, it works for me ). My question is what is the best way to get into network software engineering? What books should I read? What courses are most relevant in the undergraduate curriculum? I am trying to complete my computer science degree now and I am one test away from a CCNP. I like networking but I also like programming. I find it hard to commit to one, so I figured I might as well combine the two. So I need some advice on how to enter the market for network software engineering? My guess is I will I have to read all of Richard Steven's books. Thanks Paul From: Priscilla Oppenheimer Reply-To: Priscilla Oppenheimer To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:37:52 -0400 I'm sure there are people who are good at both types of tasks: CCIE tasks and software development tasks. For both jobs, you have to be smart, that's for sure. Well, thinking about the work of Howard Gardner, who wrote some terrific books on multiple intelligences, I would change that. To be a CCIE or software developer you need logical/mathematical intelligence. Linguistic intelligence helps but is not required for either. There seems to be a high correlation between logical/mathematical and musical intelligence. I suspect that for many support jobs, you need body/kinesthetic intelligence and spatial intelligence, which many software developers do not have. At my local high school I help with both hardware and Cisco classes. The school requires the hardware class before the Cisco classes. A certain set of students do really well in the hardware class because they have excellent body and spatial intelligence. They can take apart and rebuild a computer in seconds. Then they get to the Cisco Academy class and are expected to read volumes of material on the theory of networking, deal with obscure subnetting scenarios, learn file-naming conventions for Cisco IOS, pass a written multiple-choice test every other week (requiring linguistic intelligence), etc. They spend almost no time building networks. Most of the students who were stars in the hardware class do terribly in the Cisco classes. It's sad to see them decide that maybe they aren't good with computers afterall. I try to build up their egos again, because I think the Cisco Academy materials are completely wrong for a high school and don't take into account that the networking field needs people of different types of intelligence. That's my $0001. I'd love to hear those blues, Ole! ;-) I love the blues. Priscilla At 09:07 AM 7/19/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's like when I'm playing my guitar. Sometimes, I grap my Jackson and play Satriani or Nuno, and at other times, I grap my handmade Spanish guitar and play classical music, but most often I use my SRV signature stratocaster and play blues. The fun begins when you're mixing them all together - that's when you start playing like Blackmore or Yngwie... After that being said, I realize that keeping up with new technologies in both areas can be tough and very time dependant, but it can be done. Another 0010 cents. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Kidd - another great book if you want to become a network software designer is Computer Networks by Andrew Tanenbaum. The first edition really covered great basic algorithms for the way the protocols were designed to work. (I read the 1st Edition and have the 3rd edition but haven't cracked the cover yet :-( As far as entering the market for work is concerned, you might sign on with a company that designs device drivers, get some experience with developing and supporting network device drivers, then use that experience to lead you into one of the larger networking hardware companies (remember, they have to develop drivers for their interfaces, too). Once you're inside and understand the architecture of network protocol software, you'd have a better chance at moving into a protocol software programming role. -e- - Original Message - From: Priscilla Oppenheimer To: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Hi Cisco Kidd, Once the market turns around again, my guess is that you will have no problem finding a job with one of the major networking firms. With a computer science degree and a CCNP, you'll be hot. And that's the best way to get into network software engineering. On the job training! At some companies, college grads start out in software testing rather than development, but it would only take a year or so for you to move into software engineering. And at some companies you could go right into software engineering I would think. I was going to suggest W. Richard Steven's books, but I see you already mentioned that. Douglas Comer's more advanced books are good too. I'm sure others will give you advice too. We're good at that on this list! ;-) Priscilla At 10:53 AM 7/20/01, Cisco KIdd78 wrote: I agree with what you said about music and math being correlated, because I play an instrument and math has always come easy to me ( I know that this is not evidence enough for a theory like that, but, it works for me ). My question is what is the best way to get into network software engineering? What books should I read? What courses are most relevant in the undergraduate curriculum? I am trying to complete my computer science degree now and I am one test away from a CCNP. I like networking but I also like programming. I find it hard to commit to one, so I figured I might as well combine the two. So I need some advice on how to enter the market for network software engineering? My guess is I will I have to read all of Richard Steven's books. Thanks Paul From: Priscilla Oppenheimer Reply-To: Priscilla Oppenheimer To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:37:52 -0400 I'm sure there are people who are good at both types of tasks: CCIE tasks and software development tasks. For both jobs, you have to be smart, that's for sure. Well, thinking about the work of Howard Gardner, who wrote some terrific books on multiple intelligences, I would change that. To be a CCIE or software developer you need logical/mathematical intelligence. Linguistic intelligence helps but is not required for either. There seems to be a high correlation between logical/mathematical and musical intelligence. I suspect that for many support jobs, you need body/kinesthetic intelligence and spatial intelligence, which many software developers do not have. At my local high school I help with both hardware and Cisco classes. The school requires the hardware class before the Cisco classes. A certain set of students do really well in the hardware class because they have excellent body and spatial intelligence. They can take apart and rebuild a computer in seconds. Then they get to the Cisco Academy class and are expected to read volumes of material on the theory of networking, deal with obscure subnetting scenarios, learn file-naming conventions for Cisco IOS, pass a written multiple-choice test every other week (requiring linguistic intelligence), etc. They spend almost no time building networks. Most of the students who were stars in the hardware class do terribly in the Cisco classes. It's sad to see them decide that maybe they aren't good with computers afterall. I try to build up their egos again, because I think the Cisco Academy materials are completely wrong for a high school and don't take into account that the networking field needs people of different types of intelligence. That's my $0001. I'd love to hear those blues, Ole! ;-) I love the blues. Priscilla At 09:07 AM 7/19/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Hehe..the guitar on the router thing made me remember a site someone sent me to once. It would take you IP address and something about current traffic from you all sorts of other unknown variables would generate a song. And man did mine suck! rofl. - Original Message - From: Ole Drews Jensen To: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] The funny thing is when you combine Music, Programming and Mathematics. I made a Guitar Pascal Unit years ago, and had to figure out the formel for how much a frequency changes when you move up one fret on the guitar. Well, since you have to move twelve frets to reach the next octave, and a higher octave is the double frequency of the lower, the calculation is Frequency * 2^(1/12). If you take 440 (A) and multiply it with 2^(1/12) twelve times, you have 880 (also A) :-) As for book recommendations - I don't know, but try and search for programming and networking together on Amazon.com. And no, I have not tried to connect my guitar to my routers yet, but I can imagine some cool effects with Split Horizon and Load Balancing... Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Cisco KIdd78 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 1:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I agree with what you said about music and math being correlated, because I play an instrument and math has always come easy to me ( I know that this is not evidence enough for a theory like that, but, it works for me ). My question is what is the best way to get into network software engineering? What books should I read? What courses are most relevant in the undergraduate curriculum? I am trying to complete my computer science degree now and I am one test away from a CCNP. I like networking but I also like programming. I find it hard to commit to one, so I figured I might as well combine the two. So I need some advice on how to enter the market for network software engineering? My guess is I will I have to read all of Richard Steven's books. Thanks Paul From: Priscilla Oppenheimer Reply-To: Priscilla Oppenheimer To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:37:52 -0400 I'm sure there are people who are good at both types of tasks: CCIE tasks and software development tasks. For both jobs, you have to be smart, that's for sure. Well, thinking about the work of Howard Gardner, who wrote some terrific books on multiple intelligences, I would change that. To be a CCIE or software developer you need logical/mathematical intelligence. Linguistic intelligence helps but is not required for either. There seems to be a high correlation between logical/mathematical and musical intelligence. I suspect that for many support jobs, you need body/kinesthetic intelligence and spatial intelligence, which many software developers do not have. At my local high school I help with both hardware and Cisco classes. The school requires the hardware class before the Cisco classes. A certain set of students do really well in the hardware class because they have excellent body and spatial intelligence. They can take apart and rebuild a computer in seconds. Then they get to the Cisco Academy class and are expected to read volumes of material on the theory of networking, deal with obscure subnetting scenarios, learn file-naming conventions for Cisco IOS, pass a written multiple-choice test every other week (requiring linguistic intelligence), etc. They spend almost no time building networks. Most of the students who were stars in the hardware class do terribly in the Cisco classes. It's sad to see them decide that maybe they aren't good with computers afterall. I try to build up their egos again, because I think the Cisco Academy materials are completely wrong for a high school and don't take into account that the networking field needs people of different types of intelligence. That's my $0001. I'd love to hear those blues, Ole! ;-) I love the blues. Priscilla At 09:07 AM 7/19/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's like when I'm playing my guitar. Sometimes, I grap my Jackson and play Satriani or Nuno, and at other times, I grap my
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Ole, I think I know where Priscilla is coming from. I developed software for 10 years (mainly C/C++) before turning to Network Engineering. The difference in the roles in my experience has been dramatic. Software Engineering requires an intensity of concentration that I can only compare to playing chess. I was rarely required to interact with customers and as a result my interpersonal skills didn't develop. I took my first job in Networking for a major bank. This was very open plan and one day the team leader called the regular meeting. Everyone shuffled towards the meeting room EXCEPT me. 45 mins later my team leader came looking for me. I was still at my desk, deep in concentration. She couldn't stop laughing as everyone else was taking bets as to when I would realise that no-one else was there. I hadn't noticed a thing. Customer interaction has also been a learning curve but fortunately I appear to have picked this skill up quite naturally. I am much happier in my work now and don't intend to return to Software Development. Both Software development and Network Engineering are such wide and diverse fields you cannot possibly keep up with both. I havn't written Software for 5 years now and while the logical skill required to do so will never leave me the Microsoft Foundation Clases certainly have. Regards, Phil. --- Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I don't agree with your Priscilla. Again, I am not a CCIE yet, but I'm on my way. I like doing both things (and system administration), but then again - maybe I have a split personality 8^O I agree with you about not finding many with this skill, but hopefully I will become one soon. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12930t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Employers/recruiters miss some excellent by being de-greedy... In a message dated 7/18/01 3:59:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'd be more concerned that recruiters are starting to look for peopled who have been de-greed. This could hurt me personally, because I've definitely got my greed chromosome intact. I had no idea this could be removed. Next they'll be trying to have our spines removed and call us de-boned. --- Dennis -Original Message- From: Tony Medeiros [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 12:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12932t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's like when I'm playing my guitar. Sometimes, I grap my Jackson and play Satriani or Nuno, and at other times, I grap my handmade Spanish guitar and play classical music, but most often I use my SRV signature stratocaster and play blues. The fun begins when you're mixing them all together - that's when you start playing like Blackmore or Yngwie... After that being said, I realize that keeping up with new technologies in both areas can be tough and very time dependant, but it can be done. Another 0010 cents. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Phil Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:56 AM To: Ole Drews Jensen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Ole, I think I know where Priscilla is coming from. I developed software for 10 years (mainly C/C++) before turning to Network Engineering. The difference in the roles in my experience has been dramatic. Software Engineering requires an intensity of concentration that I can only compare to playing chess. I was rarely required to interact with customers and as a result my interpersonal skills didn't develop. I took my first job in Networking for a major bank. This was very open plan and one day the team leader called the regular meeting. Everyone shuffled towards the meeting room EXCEPT me. 45 mins later my team leader came looking for me. I was still at my desk, deep in concentration. She couldn't stop laughing as everyone else was taking bets as to when I would realise that no-one else was there. I hadn't noticed a thing. Customer interaction has also been a learning curve but fortunately I appear to have picked this skill up quite naturally. I am much happier in my work now and don't intend to return to Software Development. Both Software development and Network Engineering are such wide and diverse fields you cannot possibly keep up with both. I havn't written Software for 5 years now and while the logical skill required to do so will never leave me the Microsoft Foundation Clases certainly have. Regards, Phil. --- Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I don't agree with your Priscilla. Again, I am not a CCIE yet, but I'm on my way. I like doing both things (and system administration), but then again - maybe I have a split personality 8^O I agree with you about not finding many with this skill, but hopefully I will become one soon. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I'm sure there are people who are good at both types of tasks: CCIE tasks and software development tasks. For both jobs, you have to be smart, that's for sure. Well, thinking about the work of Howard Gardner, who wrote some terrific books on multiple intelligences, I would change that. To be a CCIE or software developer you need logical/mathematical intelligence. Linguistic intelligence helps but is not required for either. There seems to be a high correlation between logical/mathematical and musical intelligence. I suspect that for many support jobs, you need body/kinesthetic intelligence and spatial intelligence, which many software developers do not have. At my local high school I help with both hardware and Cisco classes. The school requires the hardware class before the Cisco classes. A certain set of students do really well in the hardware class because they have excellent body and spatial intelligence. They can take apart and rebuild a computer in seconds. Then they get to the Cisco Academy class and are expected to read volumes of material on the theory of networking, deal with obscure subnetting scenarios, learn file-naming conventions for Cisco IOS, pass a written multiple-choice test every other week (requiring linguistic intelligence), etc. They spend almost no time building networks. Most of the students who were stars in the hardware class do terribly in the Cisco classes. It's sad to see them decide that maybe they aren't good with computers afterall. I try to build up their egos again, because I think the Cisco Academy materials are completely wrong for a high school and don't take into account that the networking field needs people of different types of intelligence. That's my $0001. I'd love to hear those blues, Ole! ;-) I love the blues. Priscilla At 09:07 AM 7/19/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I hear what you're saying Phil, and agree that these two areas are very different. My problem was always the forgetting the time when I was diving in thousands lines of codes, and I would suddently look at the clock and discover that it was 4 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean however that you can't do both. It's like when I'm playing my guitar. Sometimes, I grap my Jackson and play Satriani or Nuno, and at other times, I grap my handmade Spanish guitar and play classical music, but most often I use my SRV signature stratocaster and play blues. The fun begins when you're mixing them all together - that's when you start playing like Blackmore or Yngwie... After that being said, I realize that keeping up with new technologies in both areas can be tough and very time dependant, but it can be done. Another 0010 cents. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Phil Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:56 AM To: Ole Drews Jensen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] Ole, I think I know where Priscilla is coming from. I developed software for 10 years (mainly C/C++) before turning to Network Engineering. The difference in the roles in my experience has been dramatic. Software Engineering requires an intensity of concentration that I can only compare to playing chess. I was rarely required to interact with customers and as a result my interpersonal skills didn't develop. I took my first job in Networking for a major bank. This was very open plan and one day the team leader called the regular meeting. Everyone shuffled towards the meeting room EXCEPT me. 45 mins later my team leader came looking for me. I was still at my desk, deep in concentration. She couldn't stop laughing as everyone else was taking bets as to when I would realise that no-one else was there. I hadn't noticed a thing. Customer interaction has also been a learning curve but fortunately I appear to have picked this skill up quite naturally. I am much happier in my work now and don't intend to return to Software Development. Both Software development and Network Engineering are such wide and diverse fields you cannot possibly keep up with both. I havn't written Software for 5 years now and while the logical skill required to do so will never leave me the Microsoft Foundation Clases certainly have. Regards, Phil. --- Ole Drews Jensen wrote: I don't agree with your Priscilla. Again, I am not a CCIE yet, but I'm on my way. I like doing both things (and system administration), but then again - maybe I have a split personality 8^O I agree with you about not finding many with this skill, but hopefully I will become one soon. Take care, Ole
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, Well, I don't have a degree -- admittedly, more formal publications than many faculty -- and I'll match my network software engineering against anyone. I freely admit that I probably have gone through a pretty good equivalent of a formal computer science curriculum by self-study. Admittedly, it's been 10 years or so since I did significant coding -- but I still read code, write the requirements, and occasionally tell the developers where to modify the code. -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13016t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13027t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it successfully. not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and too slow and when given the project to a so called plain coder he has completed the project come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should have been designed in the first place. It adds fuel to the fire. what is valued more a piece of paper from uni or a person with real world experience ??? Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone who has real world experience and knows true engineering ? -Original Message- From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13029t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
IMHO software doesn't need to be engineered. Electronics, combustion engines, rockets, etc need to be engineered. Software Engineer = Coder. I'm not trying to bash on programmers I've been there and done that and I have respect for people who can write good code that works. I don't agreed with your statement coders just write code based on the reqs and doesn't require a degree. I gained my best programming skills before I ever even went to college to get my degree. I'm wondering what magic you believe a degree has to turns someone from a coder to an engineer. Traditional engineering programs (degree) requires a high level of understanding of math (Calc/Differential Eqns), physics, etc and none of this is needed to be a good programmer or Software Engineer. By the same token, you could say the same applies to Network Engineers, although at least with network engineering having a good understanding of electricity (for cabling/voltages) and some physics (optical networks) helps out. I dunno.. I guess an engineer is someone who uses their skill to design or implement a complex system to accomplish a single goal.. degree or no degree. Mike W. Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree and also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base on the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree. my two cents, mark, -Original Message- From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=13042t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12854t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Even more scary will be the day that I.T. agents develop brains. Phil. --- Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12858t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Or...lack there of ;-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12859t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12863t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
There are an awful lot of 'They musts' in her original email, I am sort of suprised at the reqs. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tony Medeiros Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 2:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12866t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I'd be more concerned that recruiters are starting to look for peopled who have been de-greed. This could hurt me personally, because I've definitely got my greed chromosome intact. I had no idea this could be removed. Next they'll be trying to have our spines removed and call us de-boned. --- Dennis -Original Message- From: Tony Medeiros [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 12:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12865t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I want to deploy DSPF here at work. - Original Message - From: Tony Medeiros To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12869t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
router rip - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to deploy DSPF here at work. - Original Message - From: Tony Medeiros To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12874t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
Well, I see it as a challence. When I hopefully become a CCIE one day, I would live up to those requirements. I don't believe on putting all my money on the same horse. I am educated as a Programmer and certified as a systems engineer and a network associate (soon to be network professional). I like the fact that you can mix those things. Unless you want to become the ultimative expert in one field, and write dusins of books and rfc's about it, I believe it would be healthy to expand your expertise to more than one area (or AS). Just my 0010 cents. Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: William Gragido [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] There are an awful lot of 'They musts' in her original email, I am sort of suprised at the reqs. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tony Medeiros Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 2:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12876t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer science program gets into relatively little you need to know to design and implement protocols, other than as a coder. Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person. There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and large network design, but much less with troubleshooting. Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune event? They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12873t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I don't agree with your Priscilla. Again, I am not a CCIE yet, but I'm on my way. I like doing both things (and system administration), but then again - maybe I have a split personality 8^O I agree with you about not finding many with this skill, but hopefully I will become one soon. Take care, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-] They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different type of personality. Priscilla At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote: Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about how CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs. I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my signature) on another Cisco list I'm a member of: Hth, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 - From: JDO Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE Hello, My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 972-991-7569. Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can find their site at Thanks Johnna Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12877t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
is that one of those protocols that upper managment uses for making networking decisions? -Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to deploy DSPF here at work. - Original Message - From: Tony Medeiros To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12882t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
That would be CSPF--- Cheapest Shortest Path First! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter Slow Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 5:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] is that one of those protocols that upper managment uses for making networking decisions? -Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to deploy DSPF here at work. - Original Message - From: Tony Medeiros To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:41 PM Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805] I want to be a developer for DSPF What is that? Dumbest Shortest Path First ? My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas, Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must be a software engineer and they must be degreed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=12887t=12805 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
