Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
That even makes sense from a logical perspective. The knot does not line up vertically with the keyway in the wheel & center hub. So, if one has it lined up on one side, and then you take the wheel off and install it from the other direction, viola! It's way off! Ugh. And to think I'd be taking all apart thinking I had a major issue - How long would I have been chasing that gremlin? :0 Now to verify the symptoms... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: Bruce Whitmore Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? Whoa! That might be it! Not someone messing with me - I've been having the teak refinished, and the wheel had been removed for that work and was laying on the cabin top. So, I could have easily put it on the "wrong" side out. If that's it, I can breath much easier! That could also account for the first time it was "off" after initial adjustment... I'll still need to check for rust on the plate, but that gives me immediate breathing room. If you're right, I owe another $50 to Stu! Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Dennis C. via CnC-List To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If I take the wheel off and rotate it 180 degrees, does that create the same deviation? I routinely change between my 32 inch (cruising) and 36 inch (racing) wheels. If I don't put the wheel on with the correct side forward, it is always off a spoke or so. Could someone be messing with you? Dennis C.Touche' 35-1 #83Mandeville, LA On Jan 24, 2018 12:40 PM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" wrote: The turks head wraps across a spoke, so no, it can't be moved. good thought though Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: "Hoyt, Mike" Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? Any chance that the Turks Head is moving? .. or that someone is not moving it just for fun? From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-bounces@cnc- list.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, and it happens when we're OFF the boat! On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes when I hit the rudder stop. The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List To: C&C List Cc: Josh Muckley Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" wrote: Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Michael Brown via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 201
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Whoa! That might be it! Not someone messing with me - I've been having the teak refinished, and the wheel had been removed for that work and was laying on the cabin top. So, I could have easily put it on the "wrong" side out. If that's it, I can breath much easier! That could also account for the first time it was "off" after initial adjustment... I'll still need to check for rust on the plate, but that gives me immediate breathing room. If you're right, I owe another $50 to Stu! Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Dennis C. via CnC-List To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If I take the wheel off and rotate it 180 degrees, does that create the same deviation? I routinely change between my 32 inch (cruising) and 36 inch (racing) wheels. If I don't put the wheel on with the correct side forward, it is always off a spoke or so. Could someone be messing with you? Dennis C.Touche' 35-1 #83Mandeville, LA On Jan 24, 2018 12:40 PM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" wrote: The turks head wraps across a spoke, so no, it can't be moved. good thought though Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: "Hoyt, Mike" Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? Any chance that the Turks Head is moving? .. or that someone is not moving it just for fun? From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-bounces@cnc- list.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, and it happens when we're OFF the boat! On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes when I hit the rudder stop. The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List To: C&C List Cc: Josh Muckley Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" wrote: Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Michael Brown via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behol
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
The sprocket pin ain’t coming out without a drift and a big hammer. It just won’t happen. And if it was partially sticking out, the wheel won’t turn. Chuck G. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2018, at 4:50 PM, Doug Allardyce via CnC-List > wrote: > > Since you are checking everything, check the tapered pin that holds the > sprocket to the pedestal shaft. > > Doug Allardyce > ~_/)~ > > -Original Message- > From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey > Nelson via CnC-List > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 4:21 PM > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: Jeffrey Nelson > Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > Do you know any really good practical jokers? > > I can't imagine a possible way for the chain to jump off the socket and the > key's unless they somehow broke would prohibit slipping elsewhere. > > > > >> On 1/23/2018 9:54 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... >> >> I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the >> wheel is centered. I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came >> back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port. By the way, were >> talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. After installing my >> autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to >> approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment >> bolts through the radial drive wheel. This required jumping the chain 1 or >> 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. >> >> All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to >> find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard. During these >> adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be >> relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce >> the feel of the wheel. I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out >> sailing. >> >> During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a >> little loose, and tightened those. >> >> Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the >> cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on >> the sprocket. >> >> Thoughts? >> Bruce Whitmore >> 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" >> Madiera Beach, FL >> (847) 404-5092 (mobile) >> bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net >> >> >> ___ >> >> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and >> every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use >> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> > > > -- > Cheers, > Jeff Nelson > Muir Caileag > C&C 30 > Armdale Y.C. > Halifax > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
If I take the wheel off and rotate it 180 degrees, does that create the same deviation? I routinely change between my 32 inch (cruising) and 36 inch (racing) wheels. If I don't put the wheel on with the correct side forward, it is always off a spoke or so. Could someone be messing with you? Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Jan 24, 2018 12:40 PM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: The turks head wraps across a spoke, so no, it can't be moved. good thought though Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net -- *From:* "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" *To:* "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" *Cc:* "Hoyt, Mike" *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:35 PM *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? Any chance that the Turks Head is moving? .. or that someone is not moving it just for fun? *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Cc:* Bruce Whitmore *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, and it happens when we're OFF the boat! On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes when I hit the rudder stop. The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net -- *From:* Josh Muckley via CnC-List *To:* C&C List *Cc:* Josh Muckley *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net -- *From:* Michael Brown via CnC-List *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Cc:* Michael Brown *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on th
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Boat_SigSince you are checking everything, check the tapered pin that holds the sprocket to the pedestal shaft. Doug Allardyce ~_/)~ -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 4:21 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeffrey Nelson Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? Do you know any really good practical jokers? I can't imagine a possible way for the chain to jump off the socket and the key's unless they somehow broke would prohibit slipping elsewhere. On 1/23/2018 9:54 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List wrote: Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered. I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port. By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel. This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard. During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel. I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those. Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray -- Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C&C 30 Armdale Y.C. Halifax Virus-free. www.avast.com ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Thats funny! I was thinking the exact same thing! On 1/24/2018 4:20 PM, Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List wrote: Do you know any really good practical jokers? I can't imagine a possible way for the chain to jump off the socket and the key's unless they somehow broke would prohibit slipping elsewhere. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Do you know any really good practical jokers? I can't imagine a possible way for the chain to jump off the socket and the key's unless they somehow broke would prohibit slipping elsewhere. On 1/23/2018 9:54 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List wrote: Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered. I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port. By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel. This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard. During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel. I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those. Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray -- Boat_Sig Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C&C 30 Armdale Y.C. Halifax --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
A friend of mine who owns a Niagra 35 had his chain slip off the sprocket while he was at a mooring during windy and rough conditions. I asked him if he had locked down his steering wheel; he had not. If you have too much slack in your cables and your rudder is flopping about, you could jump a cog or two. ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
There should be no play at the radial drive. If the radial is installed properly (bored .003” undersized), when it is tightened in place it should not move. The key only serves as a secondary fixture to prevent the drive from turning on the post if the interference clamping is damaged. The key should also be stainless for strength and to mitigate corrosion. Brass or bronze keys are soft and not appropriate. It is possible to damage a rudder stop or bend a radial through an accident or misuse, but that would not effect the centering of the wheel. Only the position of the chain on the sprocket can do that. Damaging a rudder stop may allow the chain to become derailed from the sprocket at the chain to wire joint if the chain runs off the end of the sprocket. Pulling it back the other direction could result in a misalignment if the chain. For what it’s worth, jumping one tooth on a 13tooth sprocket will result in a 20 degree wheel offset... Chuck Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List > wrote: > > > > True, though note that very little play at the radial wheel keyway is > required. > If your rudder swings 80 degrees and that takes 3 turns lock to lock ( no > idea, just an example ), > then 1 degree on the rudder is 13.5 degrees on the wheel. If your rudder post > is 2.5" diameter then > 1 degree is less than 1/32" of play. > > Other than taking everything apart on Windburn I have only looked at two > other drives > systems. Both had been damaged and had some play in them. On one it was > a similar observation, the center mark on the wheel was no longer straight > ahead. My guess > is while in full reverse the wheel was let go and slammed over against the > stop hard > enough to shift the radial on the shaft. The key was brass or bronze and was > damaged. > On the other one the keyways were not the same size, maybe out by 0.02" or so. > > It is not always easy to get in and make good measurements. > > That allowed the radial to move, polished the fit a bit and the drive system > slipped > down enough to cause alignment problems. > > I take it from your advise that everything was engineered to be a very tight > or interference > fit. The ones I looked at were not but I couldn't tell by hand. Still, 20 > degrees is a lot. > > > I did take the plate and idlers off of Windburn, had them sandblasted and > coated them > with POR-15. Came up as hard as rock and looks to be a good solution for > rusting steel. > > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > > > > From: "Chuck Gilchrest" > > Michael, > > A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with > no explanation. I suspect Bruce?s boat has a 44? diameter wheel which means > at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk?s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ?? > to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel > that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. > > Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft > by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized > by .003? for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the > radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in > place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the > rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won?t slip on > the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. > > I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot > after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping > various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat > handling suffers when this happens.. > > Chuck Gilchrest > > Half Magic > > 1983 Landfall 35 > > Padanaram, MA > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
The 4 pedestal bolts at the base are embedded into the fiberglass. I have not seen any nuts on the back side nor have I needed to supply any resistance from underneath. Just use your socket wrench to remove the bolts. The idler plate is sandwiched between the pedestal and the deck. The deck was even custom molded with recesses to accommodate the plate. The bolts are supposed to be aluminum to help minimize galvanic corrosion on the pedestal. I took it a step further and made aluminum washers to prevent marring where the bolt head interfaces with the pedestal. I also used nylon washers to provide galvanic isolation between the idler plate, the pedestal, and the bolts. I forget what the torque spec is but be careful since they are aluminum. Before you disassemble too much you might gain some useful information be using an inspection mirror or camera to view under the pedestal. You can reach in and feel around pretty good too. Josh On Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 2:37 PM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I have had the pedestal partially apart, in that I replaced the brake pads > and lubed the chain. I also got it far enough apart to jump the chain > links for the purposes of realigning the wheel. I have not taken the chain > off entirely. If, in fact the bolts thread into a deck fitting rather than > having to work with nuts on the backside, that would make things MUCH > easier. > > Interestingly, there was some commentary about how there were "wheels" > replaced in the steering system before I bought the boat, but that was not > documented, so I kind of disregarded it at the time. I'd sure like it if I > didn't have to deal with parts that are no longer manufactured! > > Any available documentation about the process on my particular boat would > be extremely helpful! > > Bruce Whitmore > 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > > > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Sometimes the most obvious answer is the answer. Given that you were working with the chain to realign the wheel, I suggest looking at all the components that may have been affected during this work as a starting point. From: Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:36 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I have had the pedestal partially apart, in that I replaced the brake pads and lubed the chain. I also got it far enough apart to jump the chain links for the purposes of realigning the wheel. I have not taken the chain off entirely. If, in fact the bolts thread into a deck fitting rather than having to work with nuts on the backside, that would make things MUCH easier. Interestingly, there was some commentary about how there were "wheels" replaced in the steering system before I bought the boat, but that was not documented, so I kind of disregarded it at the time. I'd sure like it if I didn't have to deal with parts that are no longer manufactured! Any available documentation about the process on my particular boat would be extremely helpful! Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
The turks head wraps across a spoke, so no, it can't be moved. good thought though Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: "Hoyt, Mike" Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? #yiv4571028736 #yiv4571028736 -- _filtered #yiv4571028736 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4571028736 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4571028736 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4571028736 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv4571028736 #yiv4571028736 p.yiv4571028736MsoNormal, #yiv4571028736 li.yiv4571028736MsoNormal, #yiv4571028736 div.yiv4571028736MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4571028736 a:link, #yiv4571028736 span.yiv4571028736MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4571028736 a:visited, #yiv4571028736 span.yiv4571028736MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4571028736 p.yiv4571028736MsoAcetate, #yiv4571028736 li.yiv4571028736MsoAcetate, #yiv4571028736 div.yiv4571028736MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv4571028736 span.yiv4571028736EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv4571028736 span.yiv4571028736BalloonTextChar {}#yiv4571028736 .yiv4571028736MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4571028736 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4571028736 div.yiv4571028736WordSection1 {}#yiv4571028736 Any chance that the Turks Head is moving? .. or that someone is not moving it just for fun? From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, and it happens when we're OFF the boat! On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes when I hit the rudder stop. The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List To: C&C List Cc: Josh Muckley Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" wrote: Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Michael Brown via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sproc
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
I have had the pedestal partially apart, in that I replaced the brake pads and lubed the chain. I also got it far enough apart to jump the chain links for the purposes of realigning the wheel. I have not taken the chain off entirely. If, in fact the bolts thread into a deck fitting rather than having to work with nuts on the backside, that would make things MUCH easier. Interestingly, there was some commentary about how there were "wheels" replaced in the steering system before I bought the boat, but that was not documented, so I kind of disregarded it at the time. I'd sure like it if I didn't have to deal with parts that are no longer manufactured! Any available documentation about the process on my particular boat would be extremely helpful! Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Any chance that the Turks Head is moving? .. or that someone is not moving it just for fun? From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Bruce Whitmore Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, and it happens when we're OFF the boat! On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes when I hit the rudder stop. The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> To: C&C List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Cc: Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.com>> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> From: Michael Brown via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Michael Brown mailto:m...@tkg.ca>> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net>> Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> __ _ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/ stumurray<https://www.paypal.me/stumurray> __ _ Thanks everyone f
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
True, though note that very little play at the radial wheel keyway is required. If your rudder swings 80 degrees and that takes 3 turns lock to lock ( no idea, just an example ), then 1 degree on the rudder is 13.5 degrees on the wheel. If your rudder post is 2.5" diameter then 1 degree is less than 1/32" of play. Other than taking everything apart on Windburn I have only looked at two other drives systems. Both had been damaged and had some play in them. On one it was a similar observation, the center mark on the wheel was no longer straight ahead. My guess is while in full reverse the wheel was let go and slammed over against the stop hard enough to shift the radial on the shaft. The key was brass or bronze and was damaged. On the other one the keyways were not the same size, maybe out by 0.02" or so. It is not always easy to get in and make good measurements. That allowed the radial to move, polished the fit a bit and the drive system slipped down enough to cause alignment problems. I take it from your advise that everything was engineered to be a very tight or interference fit. The ones I looked at were not but I couldn't tell by hand. Still, 20 degrees is a lot. I did take the plate and idlers off of Windburn, had them sandblasted and coated them with POR-15. Came up as hard as rock and looks to be a good solution for rusting steel. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 From: "Chuck Gilchrest" Michael, A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with no explanation. I suspect Bruce?s boat has a 44? diameter wheel which means at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk?s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ?? to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized by .003? for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won?t slip on the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat handling suffers when this happens.. Chuck Gilchrest Half Magic 1983 Landfall 35 Padanaram, MA ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
When I tighten my cables I have someone turn the wheel quickly while I watch for slack in the cables. I'm sure this is nowhere near the tension and pressure applied during operation. This "slack" can also be experienced as backlash in the wheel. Or the distance the wheel travels from right to left before conveying that change of direction to the rudder. Have you ever had the pedestal apart? Ever inspect the condition of the bronze sprocket that drives the chain? Josh On Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 11:40 AM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, > and it happens when we're OFF the boat! > > On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case > there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to > keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. > Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder > touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during > low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. > > Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the > rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing > the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes > when I hit the rudder stop. > > The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... > > Any further thoughts would be appreciated. > > Bruce Whitmore > > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > -- > *From:* Josh Muckley via CnC-List > *To:* C&C List > *Cc:* Josh Muckley > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM > > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is > why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The > detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and > cables which would be quite perceptible. > > Josh > > > > On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I > don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. > I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust > going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. > > Sigh... > > Bruce Whitmore > > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > -- > *From:* Michael Brown via CnC-List > *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Cc:* Michael Brown > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that > issue. > Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the > radial wheel. > 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) > From: Bruce Whitmore > > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when > the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and > came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, > were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After > installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables > set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the > adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the > chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only > to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to > be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to > reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're > out sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were > a little loose, and tightened those.? > > Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and > the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow > jumping on the sprocket. > Thoughts? > Bruce Whitmore > 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm..
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Hi Bruce Your bolts don’t look original. Mine are countersunk heads. Mine are aluminum about seven inches long with stainless nuts. When I took mine apart one on the bolts galled up and I had to drill the head out. Edson no longer stocks that type of bolt so I went with a stainless hex head bolt like yours. Mike PERSUASION C&C 37 K/CB Long Sault > On Jan 24, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List > wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > You're right as to the amount of wheel travel, and what that would do to > steering if I turn it that much when out sailing. I also agree as to the > keyway, and to Michael's comment, the key is in place and intact, as I > removed the radial plate for inspection. On the C&C 37/40+, the idler > pulleys are not below deck, they fit in a very small space I can access after > taking out a removable triangular panel in the cockpit. So, the parts won't > drop down into the bilge, but it would still be a bad outcome. :( > > I'll have to figure out how hard it is to remove the assembly entirely. I'm > not sure currently if the bolts penetrate all the way down below deck, or are > accessible once I remove the panel behind the wheel. > > You can kind of get an idea by looking at the picture here: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxc37iifz7eo596/Pedestal%20Guard%20Feet.jpg?dl=0 > > > 847-404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > From: Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: Chuck Gilchrest > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:38 PM > Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > Michael, > A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with > no explanation. I suspect Bruce’s boat has a 44” diameter wheel which means > at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk’s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ½” > to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel > that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. > Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft > by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized > by .003” for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the > radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in > place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the > rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won’t slip on > the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. > I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot > after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping > various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat > handling suffers when this happens.. > Chuck Gilchrest > Half Magic > 1983 Landfall 35 > Padanaram, MA > > > From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael > Brown via CnC-List > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:09 AM > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: Michael Brown > Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. > Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial > wheel. > 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) > From: Bruce Whitmore > > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the > wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came > back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were > talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my > autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to > approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment > bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 > notches on the wheel sprocket. > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to > find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be > relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce > the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out > sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a > little
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
I know another list member has tackled the idler replacement in the last 2 years on a similar boat and it was very well documented. Your boat has a unique idler that Edson no longer builds, plus your pedestal bolts actually thread into a deck fixture rather than using through bolts and nuts. I’ll try to find the link from an older thread if it is still out there. Chuck Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List > wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > You're right as to the amount of wheel travel, and what that would do to > steering if I turn it that much when out sailing. I also agree as to the > keyway, and to Michael's comment, the key is in place and intact, as I > removed the radial plate for inspection. On the C&C 37/40+, the idler > pulleys are not below deck, they fit in a very small space I can access after > taking out a removable triangular panel in the cockpit. So, the parts won't > drop down into the bilge, but it would still be a bad outcome. :( > > I'll have to figure out how hard it is to remove the assembly entirely. I'm > not sure currently if the bolts penetrate all the way down below deck, or are > accessible once I remove the panel behind the wheel. > > You can kind of get an idea by looking at the picture here: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxc37iifz7eo596/Pedestal%20Guard%20Feet.jpg?dl=0 > > > 847-404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > From: Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: Chuck Gilchrest > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:38 PM > Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > Michael, > A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with > no explanation. I suspect Bruce’s boat has a 44” diameter wheel which means > at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk’s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ½” > to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel > that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. > Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft > by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized > by .003” for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the > radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in > place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the > rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won’t slip on > the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. > I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot > after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping > various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat > handling suffers when this happens.. > Chuck Gilchrest > Half Magic > 1983 Landfall 35 > Padanaram, MA > > > From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael > Brown via CnC-List > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:09 AM > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: Michael Brown > Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. > Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial > wheel. > 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) > From: Bruce Whitmore > > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the > wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came > back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were > talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my > autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to > approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment > bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 > notches on the wheel sprocket. > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to > find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be > relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce > the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out > sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel b
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Hi Chuck, You're right as to the amount of wheel travel, and what that would do to steering if I turn it that much when out sailing. I also agree as to the keyway, and to Michael's comment, the key is in place and intact, as I removed the radial plate for inspection. On the C&C 37/40+, the idler pulleys are not below deck, they fit in a very small space I can access after taking out a removable triangular panel in the cockpit. So, the parts won't drop down into the bilge, but it would still be a bad outcome. :( I'll have to figure out how hard it is to remove the assembly entirely. I'm not sure currently if the bolts penetrate all the way down below deck, or are accessible once I remove the panel behind the wheel. You can kind of get an idea by looking at the picture here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxc37iifz7eo596/Pedestal%20Guard%20Feet.jpg?dl=0 847-404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Chuck Gilchrest Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? #yiv2637076606 #yiv2637076606 -- _filtered #yiv2637076606 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2637076606 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv2637076606 #yiv2637076606 p.yiv2637076606MsoNormal, #yiv2637076606 li.yiv2637076606MsoNormal, #yiv2637076606 div.yiv2637076606MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv2637076606 a:link, #yiv2637076606 span.yiv2637076606MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2637076606 a:visited, #yiv2637076606 span.yiv2637076606MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2637076606 p.yiv2637076606msonormal0, #yiv2637076606 li.yiv2637076606msonormal0, #yiv2637076606 div.yiv2637076606msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv2637076606 span.yiv2637076606EmailStyle18 {color:windowtext;}#yiv2637076606 .yiv2637076606MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2637076606 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv2637076606 div.yiv2637076606WordSection1 {}#yiv2637076606 Michael,A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with no explanation. I suspect Bruce’s boat has a 44” diameter wheel which means at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk’s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ½” to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel.Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized by .003” for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won’t slip on the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel.I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat handling suffers when this happens..Chuck GilchrestHalf Magic1983 Landfall 35Padanaram, MA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:09 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues wh
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Has anyone ever rode a bicycle with a rusty chain. Everything can be fine then all of a sudden the chain derails, with varying results. Those cross bars can do some damage. Check every inch on the chain and de-rust and lubricate as necessary. Mike PERSUASION C&C 37 K/CB Long Sault > On Jan 24, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List > wrote: > > Michael, > A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with > no explanation. I suspect Bruce’s boat has a 44” diameter wheel which means > at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk’s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ½” > to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel > that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. > Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft > by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized > by .003” for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the > radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in > place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the > rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won’t slip on > the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. > I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot > after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping > various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat > handling suffers when this happens.. > Chuck Gilchrest > Half Magic > 1983 Landfall 35 > Padanaram, MA > > > From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael > Brown via CnC-List > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:09 AM > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: Michael Brown > Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. > Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial > wheel. > 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) > From: Bruce Whitmore > > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the > wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came > back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were > talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my > autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to > approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment > bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 > notches on the wheel sprocket. > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to > find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be > relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce > the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out > sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a > little loose, and tightened those.? > > Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the > cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on > the sprocket. > Thoughts? > Bruce Whitmore > 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Michael, A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with no explanation. I suspect Bruce’s boat has a 44” diameter wheel which means at 20 degrees of travel, the Turk’s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ½” to one side or the other. Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel that much, the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. Most C&C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft by an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized by .003” for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the radial drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in place on the rudder. Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the rudder, the radial drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won’t slip on the post unless it is not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot after tensioning. The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack. Boat handling suffers when this happens.. Chuck Gilchrest Half Magic 1983 Landfall 35 Padanaram, MA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:09 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> > Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net <mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
While it doesn't seem likely, I think it is easier to pull the radial wheel and check that than go after the idler wheels and plate under the pedestal right now. You could check to see if the key is still there in the rudder post and hasn't become partially sheared or worn in some way from the radial wheel having been loose in the past? As you said though, "The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later..." Ken H. On 24 January 2018 at 12:39, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, > and it happens when we're OFF the boat! > > On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case > there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to > keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. > Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder > touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during > low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. > > Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the > rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing > the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes > when I hit the rudder stop. > > The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... > > Any further thoughts would be appreciated. > > Bruce Whitmore > > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > -- > *From:* Josh Muckley via CnC-List > *To:* C&C List > *Cc:* Josh Muckley > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM > > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is > why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The > detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and > cables which would be quite perceptible. > > Josh > > > > On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I > don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. > I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust > going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. > > Sigh... > > Bruce Whitmore > > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > -- > *From:* Michael Brown via CnC-List > *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Cc:* Michael Brown > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that > issue. > Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the > radial wheel. > 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) > From: Bruce Whitmore > > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when > the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and > came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, > were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After > installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables > set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the > adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the > chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only > to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to > be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to > reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're > out sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were > a little loose, and tightened those.? > > Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and > the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow > jumping on the sprocket. > Thoughts? > Bruce Whitmore > 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > __
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
And weirdly, the steering is very precise, with no sloppiness underway, and it happens when we're OFF the boat! On a side note, when we leave the boat, I tie off the wheel just in case there is more current than the wheel brake can control. This is done to keep the wheel from turning to the stops, and to prevent wheel brake wear. Our slip is in shallow water, and though we have never noticed the rudder touching bottom when we sleep on the boat, the keel stub will touch during low tides. Thankfully, we have a soft sand bottom. Maybe the boat settles at low tide or a current comes by, pushes the rudder against the line ties, causes slack in the chain/wire rope, causing the chain to jump? I have not tried to look at how slack the cable becomes when I hit the rudder stop. The rust, however will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later... Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List To: C&C List Cc: Josh Muckley Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" wrote: Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Michael Brown via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net __ _ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/ stumurray __ _ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/ stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
I can pretty much assure you that there is rust. What I can't explain is why the problem comes and goes and at such a prescribed amount. The detrimental rust would also likely cause a looseness in the wheel and cables which would be quite perceptible. Josh On Jan 24, 2018 11:12 AM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I > don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. > I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust > going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. > > Sigh... > > Bruce Whitmore > > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > > -- > *From:* Michael Brown via CnC-List > *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Cc:* Michael Brown > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? > > If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that > issue. > Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the > radial wheel. > 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. > > Michael Brown > Windburn > C&C 30-1 > > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) > From: Bruce Whitmore > > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when > the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and > came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, > were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After > installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables > set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the > adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the > chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only > to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to > be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to > reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're > out sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were > a little loose, and tightened those.? > > Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and > the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow > jumping on the sprocket. > Thoughts? > Bruce Whitmore > 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Per Chuck's previous comments, the radial wheel has a keyway and key, so I don't think it can slip. Similarly, the helm wheel has a keyway and key. I've tightened the idler pully plate bolts, but I suspect there is rust going on under there, which will mean a full disassembly. Sigh... Bruce Whitmore (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net From: Michael Brown via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links? If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue. Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial wheel. 20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line. Michael Brown Windburn C&C 30-1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) From: Bruce Whitmore Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those.? Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Several things to consider: 1. If the cables are tensioned correctly, it is nearly impossible for the chain to jump teeth on the sprocket unless the sprocket teeth are broken. You should have no more than 1/2” deflection for every 3’ of unsupported cable. Tighten as necessary. 2. Make sure both adjuster and lock nuts are on the same side of the radial wheel. Loosen the lock nut, adjust tension using the inboard nut and then lock in place with the outer nut. Putting the nuts on either side of the wheel allows the nuts to slip and lose tension. 3. Thoroughly inspect the idler assembly. Tighten idler upright positioning nuts to assure proper alignment with the radial wheel. Check for corrosion related flex in the idler plate under tension. Replace worn bronze idler axles with stainless pins and check bearings or bushings for wear and side to side play. 4. Cables and chain should align on the sprocket with equal lengths on each side. Mark the center of the chain with a sharpie marker and align with the Turks head knot or king spoke and wheel shaft key. If it shifts position, the chain is hopping teeth on the sprocket and the sprocket should be replaced. Those are really the only variables since the sprocket is keyed to the wheel shaft and the radial wheel is keyed to the rudder post. Chuck Gilchrest S/V Half Magic 1983 35 Landfall Padanaram MA Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 23, 2018, at 9:30 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List > wrote: > > Confusing and concerning. Whatever it is, be sure to get it sorted out. > Anything problematic with the steering can't be good. > > Josh Muckley > S/V Sea Hawk > 1989 C&C 37+ > Solomons, MD > >> On Jan 23, 2018 8:55 PM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" >> wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... >> >> I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the >> wheel is centered. I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came >> back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port. By the way, were >> talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. After installing my >> autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to >> approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment >> bolts through the radial drive wheel. This required jumping the chain 1 or >> 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. >> >> All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to >> find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard. During these >> adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be >> relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce >> the feel of the wheel. I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out >> sailing. >> >> During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a >> little loose, and tightened those. >> >> Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the >> cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on >> the sprocket. >> >> Thoughts? >> Bruce Whitmore >> 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" >> Madiera Beach, FL >> (847) 404-5092 (mobile) >> bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net >> >> ___ >> >> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and >> every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use >> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray >> >> > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Confusing and concerning. Whatever it is, be sure to get it sorted out. Anything problematic with the steering can't be good. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Jan 23, 2018 8:55 PM, "Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Hello all, > > OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... > > I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when > the wheel is centered. I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and > came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port. By the way, > were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. After > installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables > set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the > adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel. This required jumping the > chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. > > All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only > to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard. During these > adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to > be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to > reduce the feel of the wheel. I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're > out sailing. > > During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were > a little loose, and tightened those. > > Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and > the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow > jumping on the sprocket. > > Thoughts? > Bruce Whitmore > 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis" > Madiera Beach, FL > (847) 404-5092 (mobile) > bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?
Hello all, OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the wheel is centered. I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port. By the way, were talking about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. After installing my autopilot, I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial drive wheel. This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel sprocket. All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard. During these adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the feel of the wheel. I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing. During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a little loose, and tightened those. Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on the sprocket. Thoughts? Bruce Whitmore 1994 C&C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL (847) 404-5092 (mobile) bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray