Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Looks like Trex to me. If so, tree was made with a Composite of hardwoods and plastic. Its kind of a chippy matrrial. I wouldn't use it if that is what it is. Paul Hood Original message From: "steven.hickel--- via CnC-List" Date: 2022-10-31 6:55 p.m. (GMT-05:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: steven.hic...@gmail.com Subject: Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material? Thank you for the additional explanations.Opening up the the fiberglass over the keel joint at all/ any water ingress into joint is definitely the concern, as you mentioned Joe.I found what seems to something like scrap fiberglass/ hdpe board around the marina. But, the pinkish brown color doesn't match any color of coosa board or King starboard or any other type of such board that comes up online. Can anyone identify this is? It seems heavier than wood. I added a couple pictures to the end of the album herehttps://photos.app.goo.gl/fnTpJJrbdAQ8htiH8The idea of lowering the sole in the walkway was something I've had in mind separately to get more headroom. A few more inches maybe. Haven't looked into the feasibility. Thank you!
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Thank you for the additional explanations. Opening up the the fiberglass over the keel joint at all/ any water ingress into joint is definitely the concern, as you mentioned Joe. I found what seems to something like scrap fiberglass/ hdpe board around the marina. But, the pinkish brown color doesn't match any color of coosa board or King starboard or any other type of such board that comes up online. Can anyone identify this is? It seems heavier than wood. I added a couple pictures to the end of the album here https://photos.app.goo.gl/fnTpJJrbdAQ8htiH8 The idea of lowering the sole in the walkway was something I've had in mind separately to get more headroom. A few more inches maybe. Haven't looked into the feasibility. Thank you!
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
You can take the forward nut off the keel bolt, or any ONE nut for that matter, and the keel isn't coming off. The issue is that doing it in the water can cause water ingress, which may screw up your epoxy plans. I would also put a hose around the bolt or similar to keep from epoxying the threads. Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35 MK I Kent Island MD USA -Original Message- From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2022 5:35 PM To: steven.hickel--- via CnC-List Cc: Neil Gallagher Subject: Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material? Steven, Pretty sure you don't risk having the keel fall off without the forward bolt, as I said I have plans that show only the six larger bolts. I'll try to get a scan of the large print to put on a Google drive. Appears to me an after the fact addition to address the smile. My mast step had about a 3" bow in the center when I went at it, if I tightened the shrouds it just bowed some more. I didn't have any choice but to do something with, really. I used 1/2" and 3/4" fiberglass board for the vertical suppots, for instance: https://www.mcmaster.com/fiberglass-boards/structural-frp-fiberglass-sheets- bars-and-strips/thickness~1-2/length~24/width~24-1/ Bit of a PITA to work with, found the best way to cut it is with a jig saw using diamond grit masonry blades, but it beats laying up boards. And actually I used a piece of the the above board under the layup of the mast step, at the bottom it was narrow enough to fit one piece in that spans the sump, then layed up the cloth/resin on top of it. Believe it or not, I used 27 layers in a single layup, just to get the height, was quite a trick in 85deg summer heat. I'm sure you could use fewer layers. And yes, each layer landed on the side of the hull adjacent to the span over the sump, just a small tab. I think you could cut that little strip of fiberglass over the bolt, it's not structural, just holds up the covering boards. Not sure I follow you about dropping the sole, do you mean in way of the step and keel bolt? And I'll contact you off list, be interested seeing the boat if possible. Neil Gallagher Weatherly, 35-1 Glen Cove, NY
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Agree with all you and Neil said except re-installing the little strip at the forward end. Personally, I'd epoxy it from underneath or fasten a small piece of wood under the opening and bond the peice to it. FYI, mine has a small piece of wood bonded on the underside for the bilge plate screw to thread into. Ditto on just laying in a bunch of gass layers cut pretty much to length. No need to tab significantly to the shoulder of the bilge. I didn't use any fibeglass boards. Just used roving for the bottom layers and then glass cloth for the last 4-5 layers. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Steven, Pretty sure you don't risk having the keel fall off without the forward bolt, as I said I have plans that show only the six larger bolts. I'll try to get a scan of the large print to put on a Google drive. Appears to me an after the fact addition to address the smile. My mast step had about a 3" bow in the center when I went at it, if I tightened the shrouds it just bowed some more. I didn't have any choice but to do something with, really. I used 1/2" and 3/4" fiberglass board for the vertical suppots, for instance: https://www.mcmaster.com/fiberglass-boards/structural-frp-fiberglass-sheets-bars-and-strips/thickness~1-2/length~24/width~24-1/ Bit of a PITA to work with, found the best way to cut it is with a jig saw using diamond grit masonry blades, but it beats laying up boards. And actually I used a piece of the the above board under the layup of the mast step, at the bottom it was narrow enough to fit one piece in that spans the sump, then layed up the cloth/resin on top of it. Believe it or not, I used 27 layers in a single layup, just to get the height, was quite a trick in 85deg summer heat. I'm sure you could use fewer layers. And yes, each layer landed on the side of the hull adjacent to the span over the sump, just a small tab. I think you could cut that little strip of fiberglass over the bolt, it's not structural, just holds up the covering boards. Not sure I follow you about dropping the sole, do you mean in way of the step and keel bolt? And I'll contact you off list, be interested seeing the boat if possible. Neil Gallagher Weatherly, 35-1 Glen Cove, NY On 10/30/2022 3:19 PM, steven.hickel--- via CnC-List wrote: Thank you so much for all the additional helpful messages on this thread. Neil, I don't see a way to private message from this thread. My email is just my first and last name with a period between at Gmail. I'll be at the boat, Fidelis, at evers Marina all the time till she can launch and is ready to sail. Only thing, I need to finish the outside of the boat, since there's potentially only a couple days to get the boat in the water before the marina owner, who's the only crane operator at this marina, says he leaves for the season and the crane gets taken away for good. They're only taking powerboats here now on, as no crane is required. So, if one can really be sure the keel won't potentially drop at all in front if the front keel bolt comes off while in, water, potentially also letting water in that would be great. Then I could, do this in the water. Thank you for the extra info, Neil and Dennis. I'm still looking around to see if I can find some reasonably priced high strength (epoxy?) fiberglass board to make things simpler. But, seems like fiberglassing from scratch would be a much better deal. What thickness/ weight glass did you each use? How much glass and resin did you end up using? It sounds like you put the cardboard forms, a box without sides or a top in the case of the mast support, in the bilge and then started fiberglassing inside that. Did you tape them to make sure they didn't move. Did you wrap them in plastic film, so you could peel them away after? You just edge joined each strip to the bilge sides to keep everything flat, instead of trying bending/ tabbing to the sides at all, right? Also, is there any issue with cutting away that transverse strip of floor with an access hole over the forward keel bolt and re-attaching it later, perhaps with screws? In fact, it would be really nice to drop the sole 2 to 3 inches in the walkway or whatever is possible for better headroom and cut the floor into pieces that pop in and out for better access if ever needed - though I don't know if there's a structural function provided by the floor/ liner that would be compromised. If feasible, perhaps doing this at the same time could be a possibility and provide better access? There's also a vertical wooden floor board starboard of the mast that looks like it's gotten soft. Would be nice to replace all such wood. Also, I didn't realize that the mast support is actually all wood covered in a thin layer of fiberglass until reading the discussion here. The covering made it look like a big block of resin with a board underneath it. I'm guessing I could deal with this later. I can only feel a very slight bit of bowing underneath the support and there's just some dog eared corrosion on the end of the mast step that can be seen in pictures. Thank You! Hope it never comes to a c&c trawler, Joe. Hope the sail patches up all right. Charles. My boat was in Maryland before I had her.
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Thank you so much for all the additional helpful messages on this thread. Neil, I don't see a way to private message from this thread. My email is just my first and last name with a period between at Gmail. I'll be at the boat, Fidelis, at evers Marina all the time till she can launch and is ready to sail. Only thing, I need to finish the outside of the boat, since there's potentially only a couple days to get the boat in the water before the marina owner, who's the only crane operator at this marina, says he leaves for the season and the crane gets taken away for good. They're only taking powerboats here now on, as no crane is required. So, if one can really be sure the keel won't potentially drop at all in front if the front keel bolt comes off while in, water, potentially also letting water in that would be great. Then I could, do this in the water. Thank you for the extra info, Neil and Dennis. I'm still looking around to see if I can find some reasonably priced high strength (epoxy?) fiberglass board to make things simpler. But, seems like fiberglassing from scratch would be a much better deal. What thickness/ weight glass did you each use? How much glass and resin did you end up using? It sounds like you put the cardboard forms, a box without sides or a top in the case of the mast support, in the bilge and then started fiberglassing inside that. Did you tape them to make sure they didn't move. Did you wrap them in plastic film, so you could peel them away after? You just edge joined each strip to the bilge sides to keep everything flat, instead of trying bending/ tabbing to the sides at all, right? Also, is there any issue with cutting away that transverse strip of floor with an access hole over the forward keel bolt and re-attaching it later, perhaps with screws? In fact, it would be really nice to drop the sole 2 to 3 inches in the walkway or whatever is possible for better headroom and cut the floor into pieces that pop in and out for better access if ever needed - though I don't know if there's a structural function provided by the floor/ liner that would be compromised. If feasible, perhaps doing this at the same time could be a possibility and provide better access? There's also a vertical wooden floor board starboard of the mast that looks like it's gotten soft. Would be nice to replace all such wood. Also, I didn't realize that the mast support is actually all wood covered in a thin layer of fiberglass until reading the discussion here. The covering made it look like a big block of resin with a board underneath it. I'm guessing I could deal with this later. I can only feel a very slight bit of bowing underneath the support and there's just some dog eared corrosion on the end of the mast step that can be seen in pictures. Thank You! Hope it never comes to a c&c trawler, Joe. Hope the sail patches up all right. Charles. My boat was in Maryland before I had her.
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
bed it comes in custom labeled cardboard packaging so it's not rebranded
Bob Mann
Cc35 mk I
On 10/25/2022 7:05 PM Joe Della Barba via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
I cut out a larger opening in the floor to work on the mast step, I didn't
see how to do it otherwise.
The access to that forward bolt is not easy, trying to grind down there will
be quite the challenge if I have to get into it and no way is my new mast
coming out. On the good side I bet you could remove that forward bolt and
the keel would stay on just fine.
Joe Della Barba
Coquina C&C 35 MK I
Kent Island MD USA
-Original Message-
From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2022 4:00 PM
To: steven.hickel--- via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Neil Gallagher <njgallag...@optonline.net>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Steven,
I did leave the old wood in there. Was a decision I had to make and wasn't
sure what was the best approach, but yes, I enclosed it with the pieces I
installed. I thought the fiberglass would be strong enough. I didn't have
a backing plate on the bolt, just the washer, but after I had the crunching
of the wood I put one in temporarily, maybe that's was done on your boat
also?
I just happened to do both the mast step and the bolt at the same time, I
think you could do them separately but access to the bolt was probably a lot
easier with the mast step removed. I had my mast pulled to replace the
step, but I've heard suggestions that you could just raise it up and block
it from the deck, though I don't think I'd be comfortable doing that for any
length of time.
Getting the wood of the step out was easy, a Sawzall did the trick.
Getting something in was a lot more complicated as you cannot fit a wide
enough board through the opening in the cabin sole. I used a fiberglass
cloth layup on a form across the bilge sump so I could get the cloth into
the space, I think I used 27 layers in one rather long layup. I'd be happy
to go into more detail if you want to contact me offline.
Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove NY
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
I cut out a larger opening in the floor to work on the mast step, I didn't see how to do it otherwise. The access to that forward bolt is not easy, trying to grind down there will be quite the challenge if I have to get into it and no way is my new mast coming out. On the good side I bet you could remove that forward bolt and the keel would stay on just fine. Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35 MK I Kent Island MD USA -Original Message- From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2022 4:00 PM To: steven.hickel--- via CnC-List Cc: Neil Gallagher Subject: Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material? Steven, I did leave the old wood in there. Was a decision I had to make and wasn't sure what was the best approach, but yes, I enclosed it with the pieces I installed. I thought the fiberglass would be strong enough. I didn't have a backing plate on the bolt, just the washer, but after I had the crunching of the wood I put one in temporarily, maybe that's was done on your boat also? I just happened to do both the mast step and the bolt at the same time, I think you could do them separately but access to the bolt was probably a lot easier with the mast step removed. I had my mast pulled to replace the step, but I've heard suggestions that you could just raise it up and block it from the deck, though I don't think I'd be comfortable doing that for any length of time. Getting the wood of the step out was easy, a Sawzall did the trick. Getting something in was a lot more complicated as you cannot fit a wide enough board through the opening in the cabin sole. I used a fiberglass cloth layup on a form across the bilge sump so I could get the cloth into the space, I think I used 27 layers in one rather long layup. I'd be happy to go into more detail if you want to contact me offline. Neil Gallagher Weatherly, 35-1 Glen Cove NY
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
As I stated earlier, I haven't looked at the support under Touche's forward bolt. However, I have rebuilt Touche's mast step support. The construction is similar. There were 3-4 pieces of plywood spanning the bilge. Like Neil, I removed the wood. I used a chisel. It came out easily. Then I ground the shoulders of the bilge to expose fresh glass. (Joe's point about layers of oil, etc. is very germane.) I made cardboard forms for the forward and aft walls and floor of the step. I then layered in epoxy glass to the proper elevation and installed a new mast step box. I think the repair of the structure around the forward bolt could be done similarly if I'm visualizing the construction in that area correctly. Replace those wood pieces with glass. First, consider that any load will be borne by the shoulders of the bilge. If you remove the old wood, you needn't have to remove all of the lower portion, that is, the last 1/4 inch on top of the keel. You may have to cut those wood pieces vertically 2-3 inches aft of the bolt. Mark or measure the elevation of that bolt pad before you start removing stuff. I'd think about removing about 3 inches below the bolt pad and 3-4 inches aft of the bolt. Now you've got a clear area all around that forward bolt. Grind the bilge shoulders to expose fresh glass. Make a form for the forward wall and layer in glass up to the final elevation. Use chilled epoxy and roving. Saturate the roving on a piece of waxed paper before laying it in place. If using a single wide strip of glass, cut a hole for the bolt before you saturate it or just use a strip forward and a strip aft of the bolt. You should be able to lay in 3-5 layers per "lift" without worrying about the epoxy glass overheating. When you get close to final elevation, you could finish it with epoxy thickened with colloidal silica or another compressive strength filler. Apply some mold release compound or similar to the bottom of the stainless bolt pad. Apply a thick layer of thickened epoxy to the top of the last lift of glass then put the bolt pad on it and snug it down with the keel bolt nut. Now you'll have a decent flat, level surface for the pad. -- Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Steven, I did leave the old wood in there. Was a decision I had to make and wasn't sure what was the best approach, but yes, I enclosed it with the pieces I installed. I thought the fiberglass would be strong enough. I didn't have a backing plate on the bolt, just the washer, but after I had the crunching of the wood I put one in temporarily, maybe that's was done on your boat also? I just happened to do both the mast step and the bolt at the same time, I think you could do them separately but access to the bolt was probably a lot easier with the mast step removed. I had my mast pulled to replace the step, but I've heard suggestions that you could just raise it up and block it from the deck, though I don't think I'd be comfortable doing that for any length of time. Getting the wood of the step out was easy, a Sawzall did the trick. Getting something in was a lot more complicated as you cannot fit a wide enough board through the opening in the cabin sole. I used a fiberglass cloth layup on a form across the bilge sump so I could get the cloth into the space, I think I used 27 layers in one rather long layup. I'd be happy to go into more detail if you want to contact me offline. Neil Gallagher Weatherly, 35-1 Glen Cove NY On 10/25/2022 2:58 PM, steven.hickel--- via CnC-List wrote: Dennis and Neil, thank you so much for the very quick and extremely helpful replies. Neil, if I understand correctly, you took off all of the fiberglass on top of the blocks, and tabbed a fiberglass board on the top and on the forward face, creating a boxed corner around them and replacing the lost height. And you left the wood blocks in place, encased in more resin, rather than replacing them with fiberglass blocks/ boards? Was assuming I'd need to replace the blocks to avoid the same issue later. Looks like I'll need to grind out and replace what seems to be a very eaten away backing plate on the bolt. Is there a particular type of (am assuming) stainless steel that should be used? As per the smile. I'm actually addressing that now. And I didn't notice the fiberglass separation around the forward smaller bolt until after tightening it to close the smile I added a picture before mostly filling the gap and will finish fiberglassing it on the first dry day. There seemed to be lot of resin and perhaps filler/ mat, instead of cloth in the lower area above the joint, though I don't know what's original. Some of it had cracked. You can also see a hairline crack in the picture where, after grinding exposed it, water drops were slowly leaking out from water in the bilge. As per the mast step, did you have the mast out or is there a way to raise it a little and support it from below to get access underneath? Were you able to get to the wood board underneath and replace it without grinding out that big block of resin between it and the mast step? The boat is on the hard at evers Marina in the Bronx. Have to get it ready to go back in the water in next week. If you come this way from Glen Clove and have the time, please reach out. Would be great to get input from someone familiar with all of this. Thank you so much for the help!
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Dennis and Neil, thank you so much for the very quick and extremely helpful replies. Neil, if I understand correctly, you took off all of the fiberglass on top of the blocks, and tabbed a fiberglass board on the top and on the forward face, creating a boxed corner around them and replacing the lost height. And you left the wood blocks in place, encased in more resin, rather than replacing them with fiberglass blocks/ boards? Was assuming I'd need to replace the blocks to avoid the same issue later. Looks like I'll need to grind out and replace what seems to be a very eaten away backing plate on the bolt. Is there a particular type of (am assuming) stainless steel that should be used? As per the smile. I'm actually addressing that now. And I didn't notice the fiberglass separation around the forward smaller bolt until after tightening it to close the smile I added a picture before mostly filling the gap and will finish fiberglassing it on the first dry day. There seemed to be lot of resin and perhaps filler/ mat, instead of cloth in the lower area above the joint, though I don't know what's original. Some of it had cracked. You can also see a hairline crack in the picture where, after grinding exposed it, water drops were slowly leaking out from water in the bilge. As per the mast step, did you have the mast out or is there a way to raise it a little and support it from below to get access underneath? Were you able to get to the wood board underneath and replace it without grinding out that big block of resin between it and the mast step? The boat is on the hard at evers Marina in the Bronx. Have to get it ready to go back in the water in next week. If you come this way from Glen Clove and have the time, please reach out. Would be great to get input from someone familiar with all of this. Thank you so much for the help!
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Steven, Your photos are causing me to have flashbacks... I dealt with this very issue shortly after I got my boat: when I tightened that keel bolt I heard a crunching sound and the washer under the nut sank about a 1/2" before I realized what was going on. Yes, there is wood beneath the forward-most 3/4" keel bolt. It's a stack of 3" - 4" blocks with a thin (1/8" or so) layer of fiberglass on the top and on the forward face. The forward face is the aft end of the sump under the mast step, in your first photo you're looking at the front of that stack which appears to have lost the fiberglass cover. It looks like they kind of poured glass and resin around the stack to fill in between the wood and the hull. My fix was to put a vertical piece of 3/4"" thick fiberglass board (McMaster Carr) on the front face of the wood, shaped to fit and tabbed into the sides of the sump, then another 3/4" glass board on top of the wood (removed the old stuff) also tabbed in to the side. The top board had a hole to fit over the keel bolt, and its front end landed on the vertical board. I epoxied all the stuff in with lots of filler. FWIW I think that forward keel bolt is an add on, as I have the original 35-1 construction drawing and it just shows only the six 1" bolts and calls for wood filler in the entire sump. The wood and keel bolt line up with the downward sloping forward end of the lead, in line with the "smile". The job was not too complicated but a real PITA, as all the work is down in the sump, hard to get at and not much room to work, but overall doable. I also replaced my sagging mast step at the same time, using layers of the glass board to span over the sump. Also a PITA but apparently others have had to do it as well. Neil Gallagher Weatherly 35-1 Glen Cove, NY On 10/24/2022 5:24 PM, steven.hickel--- via CnC-List wrote: I have a C&C 35 mk I. I don't know what what the blocks under the, at least forward most, keel bolt are made of. It has a sort of wood grain, but feel like rock. The fiberglass on the forward-most keel bolt has separated on the starboard side. There's also a top at least mostly resin layer that seems to be peeling away suddenly under that bolt and in other sections of the bilge between bolts. I'm hoping that the blocks aren't wood inside of resin that have rotted at the bottom and sunk down and caused the laminate around the forward keel bolt to do the same. Can anyone shed any light here? Seems best to post before drilling a hole in the bilge to probe the material. Please see the linked photos https://photos.app.goo.gl/fnTpJJrbdAQ8htiH8 Thank you so much for any help and for this forum
Stus-List Re: Blocks under forward most keel bolt material?
Steven, To be honest, I've never looked closely at that area of my 35-1. If I'm seeing the photos correctly, the one pic with no bolt shown is the forward surface of the structure you're questioning. The picture was taken from near the mast looking aft? So that surface would be the aft "wall" of the bilge sump? If so, my best guess is that the structure is a couple pieces of white oak. I could easily be wrong. -- Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:24 PM steven.hickel--- via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I have a C&C 35 mk I. I don't know what what the blocks under the, at > least forward most, keel bolt are made of. It has a sort of wood grain, but > feel like rock. The fiberglass on the forward-most keel bolt has separated > on the starboard side. There's also a top at least mostly resin layer that > seems to be peeling away suddenly under that bolt and in other sections of > the bilge between bolts. I'm hoping that the blocks aren't wood inside of > resin that have rotted at the bottom and sunk down and caused the laminate > around the forward keel bolt to do the same. Can anyone shed any light > here? Seems best to post before drilling a hole in the bilge to probe the > material. Please see the linked photos > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/fnTpJJrbdAQ8htiH8 > > Thank you so much for any help and for this forum > > > >
