Re: Why cocoon sucks
With a well-designed set of transformation, you won't have to update every one of your stylesheets for a single attribute change. For instance, I use the xsl:copy tag to simply copy as-is any element that I'm not interested in doing something with in a particular stylesheet. On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 06:39 AM, Kasper Nielsen wrote: Okay this is a question not a statement! For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. - Kasper - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. I think it is easier to edit a couple of stylesheets than coding Java. Plus, the use of stylesheets helps with the separation of style/content/logic. If you have a new bit of style to add, a designer responsible for the look of the output could edit the stylesheet. I appreciate your reason for use of hyperbole but it is not fair - no-one has an endless number of XSL transformers stacked up and no-one has 200 stylesheets to edit. Chris - Kasper - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
- Original Message - From: Chris Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Why cocoon sucks For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. I think it is easier to edit a couple of stylesheets than coding Java. Plus, the use of stylesheets helps with the separation of style/content/logic. If you have a new bit of style to add, a designer responsible for the look of the output could edit the stylesheet. Come on, any decent web framework has separation of style/content/logic. I'm not talking about system.out.println(htmlbody hi my name is + name + /body/html); I know what Cocoon is good for and I like it, however no technology is perfect and some things are done easier with other tools. - Kasper - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
Kasper Nielsen wrote: For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. It would be cool if you did your homework yourself, and post it on the mailinglist or on http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TheyDontLikeCocoon /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
I agree with Chris. In every language you can create a mess. Two rules of advice for Kasper on programming: 1) Be a lazy coder. Think first how you can write as few lines of code as possible. Not only will you have effecient code, you'll have code that you can maintain. 2) Stop using copy paste. If things are similar to each other, create a function. In XSL that's a template. If you copypaste a line of code 100 times and it shows a bug afterwards, be sure that you will change it 95 times, leaving 5 bugs. Bad coding habits are no reason to break down a product. Cocoon is a great XML publishing framework. It's even not about XSL at all. It uses XSL but it's not an XSL editor or whatever you want to call it. Use the tools for what they're intented. For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. I think it is easier to edit a couple of stylesheets than coding Java. Plus, the use of stylesheets helps with the separation of style/content/logic. If you have a new bit of style to add, a designer responsible for the look of the output could edit the stylesheet. I appreciate your reason for use of hyperbole but it is not fair - no-one has an endless number of XSL transformers stacked up and no-one has 200 stylesheets to edit. - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Why cocoon sucks
You should listen to your own words...Cocoon is a *TOOL*...and as such it is not, nor has it ever been, intended as a cure-all for developing web applications. Perhaps someday it will be, but what it is now, is a very slick way to take content in XML form from your logic layer and use a flexible framework to translate that content to virtually any front end device conceivable. What you seem to be wanting someone to say about Cocoon is analagous to wanting them to say that a screwdriver sucks at cutting wood. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why cocoon sucks - Original Message - From: Chris Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Why cocoon sucks For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. I think it is easier to edit a couple of stylesheets than coding Java. Plus, the use of stylesheets helps with the separation of style/content/logic. If you have a new bit of style to add, a designer responsible for the look of the output could edit the stylesheet. Come on, any decent web framework has separation of style/content/logic. I'm not talking about system.out.println(htmlbody hi my name is + name + /body/html); I know what Cocoon is good for and I like it, however no technology is perfect and some things are done easier with other tools. - Kasper - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
On a side note, I chuckled to myself when I saw this book in the store: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhtmlmason/ I think it helped me appreciated what Cocoon does just a little bit more :) Tony Tony Collen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] College of Liberal Arts University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, West Bank - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
At 16:02 12/12/02, Tony Collen wrote: On a side note, I chuckled to myself when I saw this book in the store: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhtmlmason/ I think it helped me appreciated what Cocoon does just a little bit more :) Why did you chuckle? As a member of the London perl mongers group (I drink with them and waffle on the mailing list) I know a large number of people happy to work with Mason. I haven't yet seen an over-riding reason why one should always choose Cocoon over Mason. It is much more a case of choosing the tools you are familiar with. (Or was it the fact that O'Reilly had picked some kind of monkey to go on the cover?) Alex McLintock Openweb Analysts Ltd, London. Software For Complex Websites http://www.OWAL.co.uk/ Open Source Software Companies please register here http://www.OWAL.co.uk/oss_support/ - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Alex McLintock wrote: Why did you chuckle? As a member of the London perl mongers group (I drink with them and waffle on the mailing list) I know a large number of people happy to work with Mason. Well, I know exactly nothing about Mason itself, but perhaps the title of the book is inappropriate for what Mason can actually do. Just the thought of having a .html page on a server with code embedded directly into it make me shudder. All too often I see software that lets the developer *** EMBED CODE DIRECTLY INTO WEB PAGES! *** coughcoldfusion/cough and they make it hard to separate the concerns. PHP started out as a simple templating system, IIRC, and now it does so much, there's things like Smarty which are templating systems for the old templating system. But I digress... (Or was it the fact that O'Reilly had picked some kind of monkey to go on the cover?) Monkeys are always funny :) TC Tony Collen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] College of Liberal Arts University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, West Bank - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why cocoon sucks
Steven Noels dijo: Kasper Nielsen wrote: For a short synopsis at school I'm looking for points to areas where cocoon and stacking an endlessly number of XSL transformers on top of each other falls short. You know stuff like how difficult it is adding a new attribute to an XML element, and make sure it's copied along in all your 200 stylesheets, compared to how easy it is in languages like java. It would be cool if you did your homework yourself, and post it on the mailinglist or on http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TheyDontLikeCocoon Hi! It will be fine to see the arguments against Cocoon! I saw many post about this topic in the list. I am open mind and I want to read what are the problems they had with Cocoon. This kind of thing helps to improve a product! ;-D Please, take a little of your time a write you opinion at: http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TheyDontLikeCocoon Sincerely, Antonio Gallardo. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
