Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Michael Shiloh ha scritto: Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The A6 specs/changes from previous version are only these [1] ?! Just to know... Thanks! [1] http://tinyurl.com/35j4gw -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Thank you very much for these good news! Really appreciate your update! :) Daniel On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: > > > The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production > Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We > are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. > > The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make > sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. > > Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Michael > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Thanks for the update Michael! Good news! looks like you've turned a corner! On 19/03/2008, Daniel Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thank you very much for these good news! Really appreciate your update! :) > > Daniel > > On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: > > > > > > The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production > > Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We > > are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. > > > > The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make > > sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. > > > > Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Michael > > > > ___ > > OpenMoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- ___ Tel: 00447809457487 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.happyjames.co.uk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
850MHz or 900MHz? AT&T or TMobile?
Hello, A question from a cell phone newbie. I understand that the Freerunner will come in two varieties: 850MHz and 900MHz. I live in the Silicon Valley in California. My work zip is 95014 (Cupertino) and my home zip is 95008 (Campbell). In and around these areas is where I expect to be most of the time. Should I get the 850MHz version phone or the 900MHz? Which would be the better provider for this area: AT&T or TMobile? If I should RTFM, please send me a pointer to where I should look to get my answers. Thanks! Ajit ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 850MHz or 900MHz? AT&T or TMobile?
850 for USA 900 for Europe (ok that's the brief version!) JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 850MHz or 900MHz? AT&T or TMobile?
850mhz/1900mhz are the common bands in North America. On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Ajit Natarajan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > A question from a cell phone newbie. > > I understand that the Freerunner will come in two varieties: 850MHz and > 900MHz. I live in the Silicon Valley in California. My work zip is > 95014 (Cupertino) and my home zip is 95008 (Campbell). In and around > these areas is where I expect to be most of the time. > > Should I get the 850MHz version phone or the 900MHz? > > Which would be the better provider for this area: AT&T or TMobile? > > If I should RTFM, please send me a pointer to where I should look to get > my answers. > > Thanks! > > Ajit > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 850MHz or 900MHz? AT&T or TMobile?
On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 04:02 -0700, Ajit Natarajan wrote: > Hello, > > A question from a cell phone newbie. > > I understand that the Freerunner will come in two varieties: 850MHz and > 900MHz. I live in the Silicon Valley in California. My work zip is > 95014 (Cupertino) and my home zip is 95008 (Campbell). In and around > these areas is where I expect to be most of the time. > > Should I get the 850MHz version phone or the 900MHz? > > Which would be the better provider for this area: AT&T or TMobile? > > If I should RTFM, please send me a pointer to where I should look to get > my answers. > > Thanks! > > Ajit > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Most likely you want to get the 850Mhz version because as far as I know there is no 900Mhz GSM frequency band in use in the US. http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml -- Adam Hough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Excellent update. :) Thanks! On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 6:33 AM, James Olney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks for the update Michael! Good news! looks like you've turned a corner! > > > > > On 19/03/2008, Daniel Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thank you very much for these good news! Really appreciate your update! :) > > > > Daniel > > > > On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: > > > > > > > > > The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production > > > Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We > > > are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. > > > > > > The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make > > > sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. > > > > > > Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > ___ > > > OpenMoko community mailing list > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > ___ > > OpenMoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > -- > ___ > Tel: 00447809457487 > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www: http://www.happyjames.co.uk > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Great news! I can't wait to show people 'Hey, my mini-linux computer makes phone calls. Beat that'. - Original Message From: Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: List for OpenMoko community discussion ; steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:55:29 PM Subject: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Wow, this one trolls rant has been taken way too far. Half the emails in my box have the subject of FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. > > This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to > > go without me dragging it kicking & screaming. > > > > Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to > > decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source > > project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we > > go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: > > 1. The project itself. > > 2. The community. > > I caution you in painting pictures of the community or it's members - > we're ALL self-centric and those self-centricities are often as wrong > as they are right. > > My criterion to which projects to help have nothing to do with the > community but in many cases the lack of it. My single criterion is how > well the project meets my need. OpenMoko, for instance, didn't have > good documentation when I joined and documentation is something I > think is useful. My motivations to help the project come from purely > selfish motivations - the desire to fill in the gaps that matter to > me. > > Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you > to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that > people value Free Software. > > > > > > If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more > > likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of > > RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck > > off, then you're not going to go near them. > > This next statement is going to reflect "poorly" on the Debian > community but I will, at this moment, disclaim my connection with them > so that the "bad" is my burden not theirs... > > The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told "Read the > fucking manual". Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it > for me. :) > > You argue that every person treated "rudely" is a potential > contributor lost. Perhaps I'm in the obscure minority but it was that > notion of self-reliance, that "do it yourself or it won't get done > right" mentality that pushed me to contribute. I'm not a programmer in > the sense of any of the project's I've contributed to but I like to > think that I DO contribute to projects by being passionate and being > persistant. > > Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for > themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, > I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. > > > > > > The "build it and they will come" mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll > > remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my > > point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only > > have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. > > > I don't disagree with you on points here. My only notice here is that > right NOW, OpenMoko is a "typical Free Software project". Fine. cool. > When OpenMoko goes "mass market" it will NOT be a typical project. All > of the axioms we've learned will be wrong at that point will be proven > or disproven but will hold no bearing on what a Free Software project > is. There has not yet been a Free Software project that set out, from > the begining, to bring freedom. Not Apache, not Linux. WHile they MAY > have achieved "critical mass" they didn't set out to be Free... GNU, > which DID set out to be Free, failed by not releasing a complete OS > "in time". > > Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question > the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating > use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or > the other is questionable at best. > > > > > > If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my > > efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. > > I've always found that my desire to join and contribute to projects > are directly related to how I see that project benefiting me. By my > worldview, if you see OpenMoko as benefiting you, what "the community" > does is irrelevant since YOU are the only one you can directly control > to provide that benefit to you. I see individuals working to meet > their needs, altruism fails dramatically when your goal is to appeal > to the mass market. You introduce several forms of diversity that > begin conflicting. There comes a point in that great slippery slope > when you must choose to do EVERYTHING and upset the "minimalist" or > leave things out and offend the people who want "thing A". > > A project founded on freedom and control, that self-same "do it > yourself" mentlality, al
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Dnia Wednesday 19 of March 2008, Tim Shannon napisał: > Wow, this one trolls rant has been taken way too far. Half the emails > in my box have the subject of > FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? And most of mails from this list are from people with broken keyboards (no "Del" key). -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant This tagline is umop apisdn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
[snipping to keep it short] [ for everyone who's tired of reading these -- sorry. the community's easily as (actually, more) important than the hardware product itself. debates like this are as important (imho) as those debating how much RAM the device has or what cell frequencies should be enabled. ] I abbreviate here for brevity, not to ignore any points you've mentioned. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you > to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that > people value Free Software. I agree. The self-motivated, ready-to-go, already-commited ones aren't the ones I worry about. It's everyone else. Two groups come to mind: 1. The beginners who would be contributors. 2. The coders who are looking for a project to work on. A honey-vs-vinegar approach would help in both areas. > The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told "Read the > fucking manual". Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it > for me. :) Responding to such a request like this: RTFM: The old RTFM comment goes back to the older unix days, when you had good printed documentation, but no google. It's fair to assume that people would look for documentation before asking... They already searched plenty to find the mailing list! > Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for > themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, > I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. People still choose which projects to spend their time on, as we're really competing with other projects for contributors. It helps not to treat them as spoiled, lazy children. > Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question > the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating > use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or > the other is questionable at best. Others have pushed conceptual products (in this case, freedom) vs traditional functionality before. E.g. OpenBSD's cryptographic freedom (hence) and security as a cultural decision. As they don't bring (initially) any new functionality to the table at start, we *have* to recruit heavily to build a community. The ones who'd come in for selfish reasons don't see anything for them until someone else has made the system useful. The few exceptions are folks who need specific, easy-to-implement features easily built atop the existing, raw, openmoko stack. IMHO, not too many by itself. It's like a compound interest equation for a savings account. The initial amount put in is how many people believed in the original ideals of the project (remember the account starts at zero, so we only have ideals to start with). What they put in builds interest --- the results of their work interests more people. Those people's contributions (even if it's just evangelizing) adds onto the balance in the account --- building interest themselves. The cycle continues forward. Maybe that metaphor made more sense in my head than out loud. But, everyone's got their buy-in point. The amount of work required to make the device useful/interesting for them. More work than that, and they're not interested. Any coder will tell you that they spend as much time going through documentation and other people's source as they do writing your own. That's where the community comes in: if it's easy to get help, the amount of work spent looking up documentation/help reduces, and we have more developers who were just waiting for the project to hit their buy-in point. Open source projects charge a price in hours worked, not dollars. Never pretend that the former isn't easily worth as much as the latter. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Awesome update both in progress and content! I realize that you are right in the middle of the crossfire and probably get a lot of flack for things that are mostly out of your control. I put in one email yesterday why I think people get frustrated with the lack of hardware updates. Its because they are given so much insight on the software side of things, but comparatively little on the hardware side of things. Combine that with the fact that (to an extent) any work effort they put into the software can't fully be realized until the hardware is completed. So it definitely puts FIC into an interesting/unique spot. They (from a manufacturing standpoint) probably give out more internal info than most companies, but the above scenario makes it "feel" like they are being even more tight lipped. Keep up the good work! -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion To: List for OpenMoko community discussion , steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700 Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [snipping to keep it short] > [ for everyone who's tired of reading these -- sorry. the community's > easily as (actually, more) important than the hardware product itself. > debates like this are as important (imho) as those debating how much > RAM the device has or what cell frequencies should be enabled. ] > > I abbreviate here for brevity, not to ignore any points you've mentioned. > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you > > to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that > > people value Free Software. > > I agree. The self-motivated, ready-to-go, already-commited ones > aren't the ones I worry about. It's everyone else. Two groups come > to mind: 1. The beginners who would be contributors. 2. The coders > who are looking for a project to work on. A honey-vs-vinegar > approach would help in both areas. > > > > The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told "Read the > > fucking manual". Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it > > for me. :) > > Responding to such a request like this: > RTFM: > The old RTFM comment goes back to the older unix days, when you had > good printed documentation, but no google. It's fair to assume that > people would look for documentation before asking... They already > searched plenty to find the mailing list! > > > > Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for > > themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, > > I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. > > People still choose which projects to spend their time on, as we're > really competing with other projects for contributors. It helps not > to treat them as spoiled, lazy children. > > > > Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question > > the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating > > use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or > > the other is questionable at best. > > Others have pushed conceptual products (in this case, freedom) vs > traditional functionality before. E.g. OpenBSD's cryptographic > freedom (hence) and security as a cultural decision. As they don't > bring (initially) any new functionality to the table at start, we > *have* to recruit heavily to build a community. The ones who'd come > in for selfish reasons don't see anything for them until someone else > has made the system useful. The few exceptions are folks who need > specific, easy-to-implement features easily built atop the existing, > raw, openmoko stack. IMHO, not too many by itself. > > It's like a compound interest equation for a savings account. The > initial amount put in is how many people believed in the original > ideals of the project (remember the account starts at zero, so we only > have ideals to start with). What they put in builds interest --- the > results of their work interests more people. Those people's > contributions (even if it's just evangelizing) adds onto the balance > in the account --- building interest themselves. The cycle continues > forward. > > Maybe that metaphor made more sense in my head than out loud. > > But, everyone's got their buy-in point. The amount of work required > to make the device useful/interesting for them. More work than that, > and they're not interested. Any coder will tell you that they spend > as much time going through documentation and other people's source as > they do writing your own. That's where the community comes in: if > it's easy to get help, the amount of work spent looking up > documentation/help reduces, and we have more developers who were just > waiting for the project to hit their buy-in point. Open source > projects charge a price in hours worked, not dollars. Never pretend > that the former isn't easily worth as much as the latter. > > -- > > H. Lally Singh > Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science > Virginia Tech > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And "lossless" formats are a joke. They use such prodigious amounts > of storage space that there's really no point at all. Just use the > original media! And if you don't own the original media, you're > either a thief or you've been ripped off yourself. (Can you say, > "iTunes"?) You obviously do not understand much about audio. Please, try to speak about things you really understand What would that be ? I really have no idea... __ Marc-Olivier Barre, MarcO'Chapeau. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Freerunner available soon!
..enough with that 'delayed by 6 months' thread already, it's making me nervous! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Price of the Freerunner published?
Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to-brazil/ : "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement over the estimated 650 that was published last year." Was the price range really published? Where is it? Thanks, Steven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openmoko strives for openness
Hi everyone, I wanted to point out to you something that has been happening quietly for awhile now. Often discussions start on Openmoko internal mailing lists. Suddenly we realize the discussion is important and that there is no reason for it to remain internal. There is a constant trend of moving these discussions from internal lists to public lists. Many Openmoko employees do this, but I'd particularly like to publicly thank Wolfgang Spraul for championing this and for setting up a culture that encourages everyone to think in these terms. I realize that often you, the world outside, see these discussions appear on the external lists and perhaps don't realize that this is a deliberate action on our part to hold as much discussion as possible in public rather than private forums. Regards, Michael Original Message Subject: Post- GTA02 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:27:47 + From: Andy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi folks - We had some internal talk about how to go post GTA02 and Wolfgang wants us to make it external. We have a choice about basing on S3C2443 or S3C6400. A lot of the info is confidential but not these high level things which are public domain on Samsung's site. S3C2443 is an 130nm incremental improvement over the 2442 in GTA02 with 480Mbps USB Device (not OTG) and better clock scaling. It can accept x16 DDR memory. S3C6400 is 90nm and has 480Mbps USB2 OTG, 667MHz max clock, some 2D acceleration and can accept x32 DDR memory. http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C6400 http://www.samsung.com/global/system/business/semiconductor/product/2007/8/21/661267ptb_s3c6400_rev15.pdf I like the 6400 better but information is a bit scarce right now and it can go either way. Some other concepts kicked around: - Merge the debug board function on to the phone, perhaps with internal micro USB used for debricking and hacking. No write-once memory. - Discard U-Boot, minimal bootloader direct to kernel - Focus on SD Card rootfs rather than internal memory - Add a small lowpower MPU like TI MPS430 to manage everything seamlessly when main CPU is down. Stuff like motion sensors, wake sources, battery management, maybe touchscreen, leds so there is an always-on "guiding hand" in the phone that is consistent and reliable To be clear though -- GTA02 is soon going to actually exist, and this is just future talk right now. But because of that, if you have any ideas about future arch, now is the time to throw them in and they will at least get the time of day. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH4OqjOjLpvpq7dMoRAldNAJ4kDtEv4ktKAVdw9UlW1G9+fEUMvgCfdH1e s67SFaeGcz6TgckzPo1Q20g= =/oXX -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to-brazil/ > : > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? Equally important -- is that the stock unit price or the dev kit? The latter would be fantastic, but I fear it's just the former. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Steven ** > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at >> >> http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to-brazil/ >> : >> "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going >> to be less than 400 USD which is quite a substantial improvement >> over the estimated 650 that was published last year." >> >> Was the price range really published? Where is it? > > Equally important -- is that the stock unit price or the dev kit? The > latter would be fantastic, but I fear it's just the former. If I recall correctly, the initial Freerunner pricing was $450 for the device and $600 for the devkit. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko strives for openness
The openness is much appreciated!! The hack value of this phone is really mind-boggling. IMHO It could become to this generation's young hackers what the old Apple IIs and Commodores were to my generation. As for the 6400 vs the 2443, is there any reason to prefer the 2443? The 6400 seems better in every way. As for other ideas, in sorted order of perceived probability: 1. First, some sort of mounting holes near the USB (like the PSP)? Or another USB port on the back (with mount holes), to allow things to be attached behind the phone? I'm in the Virtual Reality group here, and a phone with GPS, accelerometers, and 3D is *very* interesting. With a more specific positioning system (e.g. like the wiimote's IR) attached, it'd be really useful in an immersive CAVE (small room with projectors on 4-6 sides) or a gigapixel (25-50 LCDs arranged into one giant display) system. 2. Actually, is there any hope of getting 3d acceleration out of the graphics chip, or is that too bogged down with NDA-ness? Are we stuck porting Mesa3D? 3. Also, a wifi adapter that does promiscuous mode? A few sysadmins would love to run wireshark on it, to diagnose what's going on with their network. 4. Personally, I'd love some sort of high-speed connector, so I could connect something like an FPGA to it. Maybe access to the GPIO off the processor? I don't expect it to be a high priority, but I have to ask :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Additional info
I'm very interested in neo project. I'm a student, and I don't have much money. Although the hardware components freerunner contains are very good (fast processor, large RAM) I have a question: It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek toy to use with care? My reference points are Motorola Motoming and Nokia N800 (both have touchscreen and linux). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wednesday 19 March 2008, Steven ** wrote: > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to-b >razil/ > > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? From Sean's 'New Oceans' post on 2007-06-28: "GTA02 (AKA: The Mass Market Neo 1973) is on schedule to go on sale in October. It will have the following new hardware components: * 802.11 b/g WiFi * Samsung 2442 SoC * SMedia 3362 Graphics Accelerator * 2 3D Accelerometers * 256MB Flash We will sell this device through multiple channels. Direct from openmoko.com, the price will be $450 for the Neo Base and $600 for Neo Advanced. " ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner available soon! :-)
THANKS! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) /j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Additional info
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Nicanor Babula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek > toy to use with care? My reference points are Motorola Motoming and > Nokia N800 (both have touchscreen and linux). If you search the archives this has been brought up many times. They keep on making improvements to the software, but IIRC so far its a week on standby. I don't recall what the current talk time was (with everything off but the gsm). -- Steven Kurylo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Additional info
I haven't used a Nokia N800 or Motorola A1200, so I can't really say what their build quality is like. But I have used many many other Nokias and some Motos, and imho the Neos case is at least as good, if not much better. The clearance of the case is better than any Nokia owner would dream of (in fact it is similar to cases that cannot be opened without pure force). The plastic is high-quality but relativeley thin (the front and back/battery cover, easily replaceable) and has partly a soft-touch finish (the haptic is very thinkpad-like). The plastic frame is thick and stable, so there's no chance to break it in normal use. The display is as breakable as any resistive touchscreen device, but at least there is the (annoyingly high) bezel that covers it on drops. So - what else can I say? I was really impressed by the build quality when I got the device, I never expected it. It survived the first slight drops and I expect it to endure much more. But well - if a Nokia is your "reference", I don't think you'll expect much, so you will be impressed :) On 3/19/08, Nicanor Babula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm very interested in neo project. I'm a student, and I don't have much > money. > Although the hardware components freerunner contains are very good (fast > processor, large RAM) I have a question: > It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek > toy to use with care? My reference points are Motorola Motoming and > Nokia N800 (both have touchscreen and linux). > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wednesday 19 March 2008 16:10, Steven ** wrote: > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to-b >razil/ > > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? One can only hope that 'trisoft' aren't the official distributor in Europe since they have the Freerunner priced at a 'preorder' price of 400EUR I'm going to say it once and very very loudly... 400USD != 400EUR If this is an indication of the pricing for Europe, please arrange for some European versions to get shipped to the USA where we can buy them and have them shipped to Europe. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: Michael Shiloh ha scritto: Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The A6 specs/changes from previous version are only these [1] ?! Just to know... Thanks! [1] http://tinyurl.com/35j4gw That's all I'm aware of. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Hi Michael (and Steve), I'm surprised nobody has asked yet: I know Michael himself has admitted that Openmoko has been historically bad at estimating delivery dates, but is there *any* chance on getting an updated timeline now that we have this news about the A5/A6? IE: How long can we (reasonably) expect the design update from A5 to A6 expect to take? Will the PVT take a week? Two weeks? How long will final production take to ramp up and start seeing units make their way to shipping departments? Ian Michael Shiloh wrote: Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Kevin Dean wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Lally, This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then. I've been meaning to e-mail you personally about thing bugging me but this conversation very vaguely touches on some, so I'll enter it here. :) We, the "openmoko community" demand you communicate with us. We complain when you don't. The flip side is true with us, however. You can't be expected to communicate to us about the things that matter unless we tell you clearly WHAT matters. I think this shows on both sides, however that there are clear communication issues. One thing mentioned in the IRC chat several days ago was a notice on direct.openmoko.com telling people of the impending Freerunner "debut". As it is RIGHT now, people interested in supporting OpenMoko are being turned away, but you're providing no curiosity pique for those people to return at a later date to make a purchase. Lally raises the point of the "community" responding here with a "read the topic" response but OMi should really be directing how they want that handled. Do you want interested persons to turn to IRC and ask a question we're "all" tired of answering, or have those interested people be put on a mailing list to be informed when they MAY spend their money on this project? I don't presume to tell you how to do anything, and I'm not even dropping the implication of incompleteness or incompetance here, but OpenMoko at this point DOES have a fledgling brand identity and it is in the interest of both the project AND the company to ensure that what is said "in the name of" OpenMoko is indeed reflected by aims of the project. There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Some people understand what this means, and some people do not. Gnome devs need to sometimes remember that there's dealing with people who can't tell a cursor from a config file. :) Openness mean sometimes admitting when someoen doesn't know something. Even saying "I've sent out some e-mails but haven't gotten anything I can share" means something. Of all of the people on the IRC channel at any given say, I know several of them are NOT subscribed to this list. What this means is that "updates" are spread by word of mouth and evolve with every telling of the news. I'm under the impression that OMi just hired someoen who's sole job will be to organizize the Wiki and make sure that the information is either up-to-date or clearly marked "out of date". The goal here will be to clear out the dead content and grow new content but the VAST majority of people don't know that this person has been hired, and even fewer of us have access to the company directory to e-mail her a question - this kind of development is (for some) as important as knowing of the some transistor is vital or just "helpful for the future". Good points, Kevin. I will respond more fully subsequently. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? Date: mer 19 mar 08 05:51:01 +0100 Quoting Sander van Grieken ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > If I recall correctly, the initial Freerunner pricing was $450 for > the device and $600 for the devkit. What I really hope is that the price in US$ corresponds to the one in euros. At today's exchange rates, 450$ = 285.46 euros. I am writing this because the fact of using european distributors generally brings in big surcharges. Please do make sure that your european distributors sell at the right price. After all, equipment is produced in China, and imported both in the US and in EU. If at all possible, I suggest to ship part of the production directly to Europe, not via US. I believe the European Union is a large enough market... Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production > Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We > are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. Something that I haven't seen (and looking through the archives I can't find an update for) is what bands is this version going to use? Is it the 900 and the 850 will come out at some indeterminate time afterwards? Or will you be producing both the 850 and the 900 right now? Thank you -- Steven Kurylo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Additional info
> I have a question: > It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek > toy to use with care? Since you can install anything on it thanks to the openness of the device, it will remain useful for as long as the device works, for instance some people are planning to make a bluetooth remote control out of it or you can use it as a GPS device.Try that with some other mobile phones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Steven Kurylo wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. Something that I haven't seen (and looking through the archives I can't find an update for) is what bands is this version going to use? Is it the 900 and the 850 will come out at some indeterminate time afterwards? Or will you be producing both the 850 and the 900 right now? Hi Steven, I believe the intention is to produce both 850 and 900 versions at the same time, although I haven't heard anything specifically about this recently one way or the other. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Hi Ian, Since I'm in California and the factory is in China, it's a little difficult for me to know exactly what the plan is and where there are concerns and weaknesses. As far as I can tell there is some concern that the yield initially may not be as high as we would like, and that some tweaking will be necessary. Until we manufacture a trial run, we won't know whether tweaking will be necessary or how extensive this tweaking needs to be. So, sadly, I don't know how long PVT will take and have no timeline. Perhaps those of you with more mass-production manufacturing experience can speak from your experiences. Michael ian douglas wrote: Hi Michael (and Steve), I'm surprised nobody has asked yet: I know Michael himself has admitted that Openmoko has been historically bad at estimating delivery dates, but is there *any* chance on getting an updated timeline now that we have this news about the A5/A6? IE: How long can we (reasonably) expect the design update from A5 to A6 expect to take? Will the PVT take a week? Two weeks? How long will final production take to ramp up and start seeing units make their way to shipping departments? Ian Michael Shiloh wrote: Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Oh wow, I've been paying a little bit of attention to those exchange rates, but I hadn't realized it's gotten that bad. On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? > Date: mer 19 mar 08 05:51:01 +0100 > > > Quoting Sander van Grieken ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > > If I recall correctly, the initial Freerunner pricing was $450 for > > the device and $600 for the devkit. > > What I really hope is that the price in US$ corresponds to the one in > euros. At today's exchange rates, 450$ = 285.46 euros. > > I am writing this because the fact of using european distributors > generally brings in big surcharges. Please do make sure that your > european distributors sell at the right price. After all, equipment is > produced in China, and imported both in the US and in EU. If at all > possible, I suggest to ship part of the production directly to Europe, > not via US. I believe the European Union is a large enough market... > > Carlo > > -- > * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, > * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe > * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Additional info
You use the words "long life" and "fragile", if you're wondering about the long-term viability of the hardware, it's quite a bit more robust than the last few phones I've used. :) I've dropped it several times getting in and out of my car, I keep it in my pocket with my keys and loose coin when I walk about. The screen doesn't seem to scratch (thought it does smudge). In all, I think the device is well built and can be used in environments any typical cell phone would be used for. It's a well-build geek toy, that CAN be a long life cell phone, if you like. :) -Kevin On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:19 PM, andy selby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have a question: > > It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek > > toy to use with care? > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Additional info
Andy Selby wrote: I have a question: It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek toy to use with care? Since you can install anything on it thanks to the openness of the device, it will remain useful for as long as the device works, for instance some people are planning to make a bluetooth remote control out of it or you can use it as a GPS device.Try that with some other mobile phones. I think the question was more about hardware robustness. I've had my GTA01 since the first shipment and have carried it all sorts of places and not managed to destroy it. Of course like any device with an LCD screen it is susceptible to scratches (somebody claims to have custom-cut screen protectors, look on eBay) and to smashing. In this regard it is slightly more susceptible than, say, a flip phone. Buy a good case (I'm using a generic Targus) and take reasonable care, the device should last for ??? years I would guess - the same as any device built on similar technology. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Since nobody seems to realize it, I guess I have to explain this. 1. Even the distributor has to pay shipping 2. 19% VAT in germany 3. x% additional fees (recycling, ...) in germany/europe 4. 2 years warranty in germany 5. The dollar-euro change will not always remain nearby 1.60$/1€ 6. People who handle the shipping and warranty in germany, do you think they can work for free? Don't get me wrong, I also like to get products cheap and not too expensive, but nobody can really expect to get the device for 285 euro from a resaler - you have to pay the 19% even if you import by yourself (the 19% are also on the shipping fees). On 3/19/08, Tim Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Oh wow, I've been paying a little bit of attention to those exchange > rates, but I hadn't realized it's gotten that bad. > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? > > Date: mer 19 mar 08 05:51:01 +0100 > > > > > > Quoting Sander van Grieken ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > > > > If I recall correctly, the initial Freerunner pricing was $450 for > > > the device and $600 for the devkit. > > > > What I really hope is that the price in US$ corresponds to the one in > > euros. At today's exchange rates, 450$ = 285.46 euros. > > > > I am writing this because the fact of using european distributors > > generally brings in big surcharges. Please do make sure that your > > european distributors sell at the right price. After all, equipment is > > produced in China, and imported both in the US and in EU. If at all > > possible, I suggest to ship part of the production directly to Europe, > > not via US. I believe the European Union is a large enough market... > > > > Carlo > > > > -- > > * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da > parte, > > * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci > sarebbe > > * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? > (Chuang-Tzu) > > > > > > > > ___ > > OpenMoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Mittwoch, 19. März 2008, Lally Singh wrote: > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Steven ** > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > > > > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to > >-brazil/ > > > > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? > > Equally important -- is that the stock unit price or the dev kit? The > latter would be fantastic, but I fear it's just the former. Michael Lauer said, that there will not be any advanced box anymore[1]. The range (IMHO of the basic set) will be between 350 - 450 as said by mickeyl ... cheers -homyx [1] Talk at OpenExpo 2008at ~ 22:22 min (German) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2115673181798091662&q=openexpo+openmoko+2008&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 (this link can also be found at the above mentioned webpage ;) ) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, thomasg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Since nobody seems to realize it, I guess I have to explain this. > 1. Even the distributor has to pay shipping > 2. 19% VAT in germany > 3. x% additional fees (recycling, ...) in germany/europe > 4. 2 years warranty in germany > 5. The dollar-euro change will not always remain nearby 1.60$/1€ > 6. People who handle the shipping and warranty in germany, do you think > they can work for free? > > Don't get me wrong, I also like to get products cheap and not too > expensive, but nobody can really expect to get the device for 285 euro from > a resaler - you have to pay the 19% even if you import by yourself (the 19% > are also on the shipping fees). > > > Regarding points 1, 2, 3 and 6 - doesn't the US have something similar? Regarding 5 - shouldn't the prices be according to current exchange rates? Isn't that the whole point of exchange rates? -- Vincent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Hi everyone, I just received from Steve further details of the manufacturing process we have planned. I quote: Bringing a product to mass production goes through several steps. For Freerunner, since we intend it to be usable by the mass market, we are being very diligent. Here are the milestones: Design Verification Testing (DVT) - A 100 or so phones have been built for design verification testing. These are based on A5. These phones are ready to enter testing. This testing will include: FUNCTIONAL TESTING PERFORMANCE TESTING COMPLIANCE ( like FCC and CE) CLIMATIC TESTING When DVT is completed successfully to the satisfaction of all parties involved, we start PVT: Pilot Verification Test (PVT) - PVT is staged to go. This means we have the parts in the factory ready to do the build and we are analyzing the results of DVT. In PVT we are looking to perfect the design for production so that we get a good yield when we decide to build a million phones. The PVT runs are staggered: for example, we may build 100 phones and test them, then make a minor change and build another 100, tweak again and then perhaps build 200. Repeat until we verify that the product is ready for true mass production. Steve explicitly says: "If the community would like, I will update them on each and every stage. (I've already answered yes for all of you :-) Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Mittwoch, 19. März 2008, Andy Powell wrote: > On Wednesday 19 March 2008 16:10, Steven ** wrote: > > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to > >-b razil/ > > > > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? > > One can only hope that 'trisoft' aren't the official distributor in Europe > since they have the Freerunner priced at a 'preorder' price of 400EUR > > I'm going to say it once and very very loudly... > > 400USD != 400EUR > > If this is an indication of the pricing for Europe, please arrange for some > European versions to get shipped to the USA where we can buy them and have > them shipped to Europe. > > > Well, I've paid 300€ (=300$) for Neo1973 even without any reseller and group purchasing with two other guys to save shipping costs (to Germany)!! So, where is the big problem? cheers -homyx ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wednesday 19 March 2008 17:56, Andy Powell wrote: > On Wednesday 19 March 2008 16:10, Steven ** wrote: > > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to > >-b razil/ > > > > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? > > One can only hope that 'trisoft' aren't the official distributor in Europe > since they have the Freerunner priced at a 'preorder' price of 400EUR > > I'm going to say it once and very very loudly... > > 400USD != 400EUR > > If this is an indication of the pricing for Europe, please arrange for some > European versions to get shipped to the USA where we can buy them and have > them shipped to Europe. > > > > Andy Ok, I'll admit to posting while in a state of frustration and perhaps I should have just bitten my tongue. I've just had a conversation on irc that went thus: Hi, why don't you try to talk with me/us before ranting ? Calm down, we didn't made the price sorry, was just making coffee No problem I see, that you're a little bit upset ;-) Please give me a chance to explain you some background... I'm just expressing my frustration, because invariably we *do* get shafted in europe I'm more than happy to listen No, you're not. Please let me say something about this At first, the price wasn't an idea from us. We had some meetings with the OM sales manager two weeks ago. And the price point at this moment was around 450$ So we sat there, thought about a bulk price, shipping, all this stuff. And came up with 399 EUR This is including the 19% VAT, shipping, WEEE expenses, battery recycling and all the nasty stuff we have to pay here in the EU Also we all don't know, what the USD/EUR rate will be in late April Let's look at the actual numbers and let's assume EUR/USD at 1.55 399$ would make 257 EUR Shipping from China / Taiwan / US appr. $70 to Europe is $469, makes 302 EUR plus 19% VAT is 360 EUR for a self import at the actual price. 399 EUR for the preorders is what we fixed during the meetings with a capping if the USD should fall in April Be sure, that we will lower the price, if possible. Actually, all we can say is: A device in Europe will cost not more than 399 EUR. Including all legal expenses and VAT And, believe me, the profit is not big. Profit may be less than zero if we run into warranty problems. We're in daily contact with the people at OM and i hope that we'll be able to lower the EU price a bit. But we'll never get 250 EUR. Im' not expecting a 250 EUR price tag, I *do* understand that you need to make something out of it, but I still don't understand why there is a shipping cost ($70) for non US customers when there is no such cost for US customers. Because they ship UPS packages over the pond. essentially European customers are subsidising US customers The units are manufactured in China. We're sitting between two chairs here. OM says: Start preorder, give us numbers. We don't have a finally fixed pricing at the moment. But the community expects it. And the US customers don't have to deal with VAT and all the other idiotic EU stuff. We even have to pay fees for the micro-SD cards in the boxes :-( ok, is it ok with you if I disclose this conversation, if just to set the record straight? It is a complicate field, but we're no bastards making a $100 profit with each box. Sure. I just wanted to explain the problems, we're facing here. I appreciate that... but it does still look th oops but it does still look the European market is getting the shaft - paying extra for shipping. Ok it may not be your fault, but it is a valid point to bitch about Sure. I understand your point. But i direct $/EUR conversion is also unfair. absolutely... but 400usd and 400eur don;t match either... I know. We'll work on it. Promised. good stuff... And you keep up the good work on OM ;-) So there you have it. I still have an issue with the shipping, I see no reason why European customers should effectively pay for shipping twice. Let's hope that companies like TRIsoft get their shipment direct from China rather than having to reship from the USA. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wednesday 19 March 2008 17:56, Andy Powell wrote: > On Wednesday 19 March 2008 16:10, Steven ** wrote: > > Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at > > http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to > >-b razil/ > > > > "The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going > > to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement > > over the estimated 650 that was published last year." > > > > Was the price range really published? Where is it? > > One can only hope that 'trisoft' aren't the official distributor in Europe > since they have the Freerunner priced at a 'preorder' price of 400EUR > > I'm going to say it once and very very loudly... > > 400USD != 400EUR > > If this is an indication of the pricing for Europe, please arrange for some > European versions to get shipped to the USA where we can buy them and have > them shipped to Europe. > > > > Andy Ok, I'll admit to posting while in a state of frustration and perhaps I should have just bitten my tongue. I've just had a conversation on irc that went thus: Hi, why don't you try to talk with me/us before ranting ? Calm down, we didn't made the price sorry, was just making coffee No problem I see, that you're a little bit upset ;-) Please give me a chance to explain you some background... I'm just expressing my frustration, because invariably we *do* get shafted in europe I'm more than happy to listen No, you're not. Please let me say something about this At first, the price wasn't an idea from us. We had some meetings with the OM sales manager two weeks ago. And the price point at this moment was around 450$ So we sat there, thought about a bulk price, shipping, all this stuff. And came up with 399 EUR This is including the 19% VAT, shipping, WEEE expenses, battery recycling and all the nasty stuff we have to pay here in the EU Also we all don't know, what the USD/EUR rate will be in late April Let's look at the actual numbers and let's assume EUR/USD at 1.55 399$ would make 257 EUR Shipping from China / Taiwan / US appr. $70 to Europe is $469, makes 302 EUR plus 19% VAT is 360 EUR for a self import at the actual price. 399 EUR for the preorders is what we fixed during the meetings with a capping if the USD should fall in April Be sure, that we will lower the price, if possible. Actually, all we can say is: A device in Europe will cost not more than 399 EUR. Including all legal expenses and VAT And, believe me, the profit is not big. Profit may be less than zero if we run into warranty problems. We're in daily contact with the people at OM and i hope that we'll be able to lower the EU price a bit. But we'll never get 250 EUR. Im' not expecting a 250 EUR price tag, I *do* understand that you need to make something out of it, but I still don't understand why there is a shipping cost ($70) for non US customers when there is no such cost for US customers. Because they ship UPS packages over the pond. essentially European customers are subsidising US customers The units are manufactured in China. We're sitting between two chairs here. OM says: Start preorder, give us numbers. We don't have a finally fixed pricing at the moment. But the community expects it. And the US customers don't have to deal with VAT and all the other idiotic EU stuff. We even have to pay fees for the micro-SD cards in the boxes :-( ok, is it ok with you if I disclose this conversation, if just to set the record straight? It is a complicate field, but we're no bastards making a $100 profit with each box. Sure. I just wanted to explain the problems, we're facing here. I appreciate that... but it does still look th oops but it does still look the European market is getting the shaft - paying extra for shipping. Ok it may not be your fault, but it is a valid point to bitch about Sure. I understand your point. But i direct $/EUR conversion is also unfair. absolutely... but 400usd and 400eur don;t match either... I know. We'll work on it. Promised. good stuff... And you keep up the good work on OM ;-) So there you have it. I still have an issue with the shipping, I see no reason why European customers should effectively pay for shipping twice. Let's hope that companies like TRIsoft get their shipment direct from China rather than having to reship from the USA. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Vincent wrote: 2. 19% VAT in germany 3. x% additional fees (recycling, ...) in germany/europe Regarding points 1, 2, 3 and 6 - doesn't the US have something similar? 2. I'm originally from Canada, but my experience in the US is that each state, and sometimes within separate counties within the state can charge varying amounts of tax. On a whole though, the Federal government does not add a value-added tax (VAT), like the Canadian government does with the GST (goods and services tax). 3. California typically charges an "environmental waste impact" (or some similarly-phrased term) for electronics. I don't know about other states. We're all supposed to be a bunch of tree-huggers or something out here /shrug Regarding 5 - shouldn't the prices be according to current exchange rates? Isn't that the whole point of exchange rates? Currency exchange rates can be pretty volatile though, and basing a price on a currency that's fluctuating a lot (like the US dollar), in my opinion, doesn't make as much sense. At the same time, marketing the Freerunner in, say, Euros, might make these Americans around me feel alienated or something. ;o) Just my $0.02 ... plus tax. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 7:09 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Vincent wrote: > > 2. 19% VAT in germany > > 3. x% additional fees (recycling, ...) in germany/europe > > > > Regarding points 1, 2, 3 and 6 - doesn't the US have something similar? > > 2. I'm originally from Canada, but my experience in the US is that each > state, and sometimes within separate counties within the state can > charge varying amounts of tax. On a whole though, the Federal government > does not add a value-added tax (VAT), like the Canadian government does > with the GST (goods and services tax). > > 3. California typically charges an "environmental waste impact" (or some > similarly-phrased term) for electronics. I don't know about other > states. We're all supposed to be a bunch of tree-huggers or something > out here /shrug > > > Regarding 5 - shouldn't the prices be according to current exchange > > rates? Isn't that the whole point of exchange rates? > > Currency exchange rates can be pretty volatile though, and basing a > price on a currency that's fluctuating a lot (like the US dollar), in my > opinion, doesn't make as much sense. At the same time, marketing the > Freerunner in, say, Euros, might make these Americans around me feel > alienated or something. ;o) > Yeah sorry, I didn't use the best wording. With "current", I meant "when the Freerunner arrives"... > Just my $0.02 ... plus tax. > -- Vincent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Hi folks, several days ago I got from www.pulster.de the price 399€ for the stock unit, incl. shipment, taxes etc. Am Mittwoch, den 19.03.2008, 19:58 +0100 schrieb Peter Trapp: ... > > 400USD != 400EUR ... -- mfg/br, christian Flurstraße 14 29640 Schneverdingen E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telefon: +49 5193 97 14 95 Mobile: +49 171 357 59 57 http://wesselch.homelinux.org signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 850MHz or 900MHz? AT&T or TMobile?
Ajit Natarajan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Which would be the better provider for this area: AT&T or TMobile? > I have been a long time TMobile customer, but not in that area. Their costumer service is superb and their prices are decent. I would not get AT&T. The have an illustrious history of being a monopoly and acting like one. They treat their costumers as prey to be taken advantage of. They will try to lock you in. They will spy on your calls and have no qualms about letting the government do the same. Their costumer service is horrible. In some areas, their coverage may be better, maybe. And, there may be better hardware out there than the Openmoko Freerunner. But that is not the point. Get an Openmoko for the freedom and do not buy service from a company that willingly lets the government spy on your conversations. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 on eBay
Less than a day left for anyone interested. :o) ian douglas wrote: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120232014254 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Andy Powell wrote: 400USD != 400EUR If this is an indication of the pricing for Europe, please arrange for some European versions to get shipped to the USA where we can buy them and have them shipped to Europe. I do agree with you...! -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Andy Powell wrote: 399$ would make 257 EUR Shipping from China / Taiwan / US appr. $70 to Europe is $469, makes 302 EUR plus 19% VAT is 360 EUR for a self import at the actual price. Well, I don't think that a seller buys the shipping of each phone $70... Maybe they'll pay that for 10 phones... Am I wrong?! So there you have it. I still have an issue with the shipping, I see no reason why European customers should effectively pay for shipping twice. Let's hope that companies like TRIsoft get their shipment direct from China rather than having to reship from the USA. I hope there will be something like this...! -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: Additional info
thomasg wrote: I haven't used a Nokia N800 or Motorola A1200, so I can't really say what their build quality is like. But I have used many many other Nokias and some Motos, and imho the Neos case is at least as good, if not much better. The clearance of the case is better than any Nokia owner would dream of (in fact it is similar to cases that cannot be opened without pure force). The plastic is high-quality but relativeley thin (the front and back/battery cover, easily replaceable) and has partly a soft-touch finish (the haptic is very thinkpad-like). The plastic frame is thick and stable, so there's no chance to break it in normal use. The display is as breakable as any resistive touchscreen device, but at least there is the (annoyingly high) bezel that covers it on drops. So - what else can I say? I was really impressed by the build quality when I got the device, I never expected it. It survived the first slight drops and I expect it to endure much more. But well - if a Nokia is your "reference", I don't think you'll expect much, so you will be impressed :) Very well then. I'll buy this device as soon as it will be available, no matter how much it will cost. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Michael Shiloh wrote: "If the community would like, I will update them on each and every stage. (I've already answered yes for all of you :-) Ehehe... I think you couldn't say differently :). We're all waiting for DVT news, so! :P -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? Date: Wed 19 Mar 08 07:58:50PM +0100 Quoting Peter Trapp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > Well, I've paid 300€ (=300$) for Neo1973 even without any reseller and group > purchasing with two other guys to save shipping costs (to Germany)!! > > So, where is the big problem? You can go to www.oanda.com/convert/classic to have currency conversions for any date. On the date of Sean's famous "Get them while they're still hot!" message, when ordering for Neo's was opened (9 July 07), 300$ equalled 220.216 euros. Today, the same 300$ equal 190.317 euros. This *should* be evident from the pricing. What we Europeans would need is a FIC subsidiary somewhere here, importing directly from China, with (pre-tax) prices that are equal, after currency conversion, to the prices established for the US market. Sorry for the resellers, but... Delivery of a container full of cellphones from China to either US or EU must cost comparably, and both US and EU must offer some sort of warranty. Resellers should get their profit from buying large quantities at a discounted price, I believe. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Subject: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner Date: Wed 19 Mar 08 11:55:44AM -0700 Quoting Michael Shiloh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > The PVT runs are staggered: for example, we may build 100 phones and > test them, then make a minor change and build another 100, tweak again > and then perhaps build 200. Repeat until we verify that the product is > ready for true mass production. I am just curious: what do you do with these hundreds of phones that come out of test runs? After all due tests are performed on them, could they be offered as a sort of lottery draw to list contributors? (without any warranty, at a reduced price, you name it...) Or do they just throw them in the garbage bin?!? (just hoping 8-) Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > both US and EU must offer some sort of warranty. I don't believe this is true. IIRC the EU requires sellers or manufacturers to warranty items (or perhaps specific items) but there's no such requirement in the USA (though most companies do it). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Yeah, the thought of seeing hundreds of Freerunners being thrown away at the expense of the manufacturing process makes me cry a little. On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Subject: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of > Freerunner > Date: Wed 19 Mar 08 11:55:44AM -0700 > > > Quoting Michael Shiloh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > > The PVT runs are staggered: for example, we may build 100 phones and > > test them, then make a minor change and build another 100, tweak again > > and then perhaps build 200. Repeat until we verify that the product is > > ready for true mass production. > > I am just curious: what do you do with these hundreds of phones that > come out of test runs? After all due tests are performed on them, > could they be offered as a sort of lottery draw to list contributors? > (without any warranty, at a reduced price, you name it...) Or do they > just throw them in the garbage bin?!? > > (just hoping 8-) > > Carlo > > -- > * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, > * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe > * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Subject: Re: Price of the Freerunner published? Date: mer 19 mar 08 05:58:19 -0400 Quoting Kevin Dean ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > both US and EU must offer some sort of warranty. > > I don't believe this is true. IIRC the EU requires sellers or > manufacturers to warranty items (or perhaps specific items) but > there's no such requirement in the USA (though most companies do > it). You are most probably true, but if FIC has any hope to become a serious player in the US cellphone market, I don't expect they can make it without offering some form of reasonable warranty. Carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Carlo E. Prelz wrote: I am just curious: what do you do with these hundreds of phones that come out of test runs? After all due tests are performed on them, could they be offered as a sort of lottery draw to list contributors? (without any warranty, at a reduced price, you name it...) Or do they just throw them in the garbage bin?!? For what it's worth, it used to be--this is back in the 90s--that when Apple produced prototypes, EVT units, PVT units, etc., Apple was able to take the cost of making them (and a prototype could cost upwards of $50,000) as a Federal tax deduction as long as the units were destroyed. That's changed now, but there may be other similar issues in other geographies. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
GSoC 2008
Hi guys, as you may have already noticed, Openmoko Inc. has been accepted as a mentoring organization for the Google Summer of Code 2008. According to the timeline, the student application period begins Monday, March 24, 2008, and ends Monday, March 31st. Please prepare to apply as soon as possible, so we can use the one week interval to refine and focus your proposal. Please note that the list of ideas found on the wiki page is by no means comprehensive, it's rather a bunch of things we think would be cool. If you come up with even cooler stuff, be our guest :) As for the amount of actual program slots we get assigned from google, I have no idea yet... Cheers, :M: ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
I'm sure most developers appreciate the trust involved in being this open. I'm committed to the open philosophy. So thanks for thanking me. If the community wants to ask me questions about anything, I'll give them straight answers. The community will know what I KNOW. My job is to market and sell this revolutionary device. The community's job is to turn it into something others could never imagine. My job is easy: I'm selling the community's creativity. -Original Message- From: Daniel Spies [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 2:45 AM To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Cc: steve Subject: Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status Thank you very much for these good news! Really appreciate your update! :) Daniel On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: > > > The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production > Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We > are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. > > The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make > sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. > > Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Michael > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko strives for openness
What would be interesting to know: What is the next thing Openmoko wants to do? A GTA03 Neo device with some changes in functionality but keeping the general design? An entirely new device with possibly other/revolutionary design goals? Multiple devices at the same time? How about a TI OMAP3 as SoC? They seem to somewhat support open source & Linux though I'm not sure to what extent and if they can be pushed further in the right direction. http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbusplashcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&contentId=4752 http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/gencontent.tsp?contentId=36915 http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/omap3530.html Pandora ( http://www.openpandora.org/ ) uses the OMAP 3530. I'd like to see a similarly powerful, similar form factor Openmoko device. Maybe a cooperation with the Pandora guys would be possible, adding Bluetooth and phone functionality to it? Putting the rootfs on an internal microSD card sounds like it would make sense. I'd like to have a second SD slot though, that is easier to access. Full SD would be nice for that but microSD probably more practical in a phone. I don't have much of a clue about these things but here is what the boot mechanism should make possible: The first part starting the system has to be permanent and only flashable with some effort (debug board). It should never need a reflash. This part has to check if the user wants to start up normally (power button) or wants to reflash the internal memory (power + aux). The internal memory would contain everything that can change, such as the boot loader and the OS. Flashing needs to be possible over USB. So what needs to change is that flashing the internal memory isn't a function of the bootloader, which sits in internal memory, but rather something put into a part that boots up first and can't be changed without the debug board and thus not destroyed by a virus or software failures. The need of a debug board for repairing messed up software would vanish. Ortwin On 3/19/08, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I wanted to point out to you something that has been happening quietly > for awhile now. > > Often discussions start on Openmoko internal mailing lists. Suddenly we > realize the discussion is important and that there is no reason for it > to remain internal. > > There is a constant trend of moving these discussions from internal > lists to public lists. Many Openmoko employees do this, but I'd > particularly like to publicly thank Wolfgang Spraul for championing this > and for setting up a culture that encourages everyone to think in these > terms. > > I realize that often you, the world outside, see these discussions > appear on the external lists and perhaps don't realize that this is a > deliberate action on our part to hold as much discussion as possible in > public rather than private forums. > > Regards, > Michael > > Original Message > Subject: Post- GTA02 > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:27:47 + > From: Andy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi folks - > > We had some internal talk about how to go post GTA02 and Wolfgang wants > us to make it external. > > We have a choice about basing on S3C2443 or S3C6400. A lot of the info > is confidential but not these high level things which are public domain > on Samsung's site. > > S3C2443 is an 130nm incremental improvement over the 2442 in GTA02 with > 480Mbps USB Device (not OTG) and better clock scaling. It can accept > x16 DDR memory. > > S3C6400 is 90nm and has 480Mbps USB2 OTG, 667MHz max clock, some 2D > acceleration and can accept x32 DDR memory. > > http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C6400 > http://www.samsung.com/global/system/business/semiconductor/product/2007/8/21/661267ptb_s3c6400_rev15.pdf > > I like the 6400 better but information is a bit scarce right now and it > can go either way. > > Some other concepts kicked around: > > - Merge the debug board function on to the phone, perhaps with internal > micro USB used for debricking and hacking. No write-once memory. > > - Discard U-Boot, minimal bootloader direct to kernel > > - Focus on SD Card rootfs rather than internal memory > > - Add a small lowpower MPU like TI MPS430 to manage everything > seamlessly when main CPU is down. Stuff like motion sensors, wake > sources, battery management, maybe touchscreen, leds so there is an > always-on "guiding hand" in the phone that is consistent and reliable > > To be clear though -- GTA02 is soon going to actually exist, and this is > just future talk right now. But because of that, if you have any ideas > about future arch, now is the time to throw them in and they will at > least get the time of day. > > - -Andy > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.or
Re: Openmoko strives for openness
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is a constant trend of moving these discussions from internal > lists to public lists. Many Openmoko employees do this, but I'd > particularly like to publicly thank Wolfgang Spraul for championing this > and for setting up a culture that encourages everyone to think in these > terms. I for one noticed, and I think it's pretty cool. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: Additional info
If you are looking for hardware information. look here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#Product_Life this states that the product is meant to last a minimum of 2 years. hope this help Regards James On 19/03/2008, Nicanor Babula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > thomasg wrote: > > I haven't used a Nokia N800 or Motorola A1200, so I can't really say > > what their build quality is like. > > But I have used many many other Nokias and some Motos, and imho the > > Neos case is at least as good, if not much better. > > The clearance of the case is better than any Nokia owner would dream > > of (in fact it is similar to cases that cannot be opened without pure > > force). > > The plastic is high-quality but relativeley thin (the front and > > back/battery cover, easily replaceable) and has partly a soft-touch > > finish (the haptic is very thinkpad-like). The plastic frame is thick > > and stable, so there's no chance to break it in normal use. > > The display is as breakable as any resistive touchscreen device, but > > at least there is the (annoyingly high) bezel that covers it on drops. > > > > So - what else can I say? I was really impressed by the build quality > > when I got the device, I never expected it. It survived the first > > slight drops and I expect it to endure much more. > > > > But well - if a Nokia is your "reference", I don't think you'll expect > > much, so you will be impressed :) > > > > Very well then. I'll buy this device as soon as it will be available, no > matter how much it will cost. > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- ___ Tel: 00447809457487 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.happyjames.co.uk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Some points. nearly everyone misses the difference between internal schedules and external schedules. In closed companies you never publish the Internal schedule. Announcing the future product kills the present product. You wait until the cake is fully baked, then you deliver it. Nobody sees your internal slips. Nobody sees the nasty bug it took forever to find. nobody sees the struggle and the hard work. They see the final product. and it is always "on time." At Openmoko we choose to do things differently. Everyone on the outside sees the sausage being made. heck they help make the sausage!. Hard core engineers get this. It's very intimidating to have people watch your day to day struggling. It would be easy to be closed and announce new products only when they are finished. We choose a different path. specific questions about PVT. First DVT parts must complete testing. DVT testing is comprehensive. the device is expected to pass. question about A5 and A6. The difference between a5 and A6 is yield related. I don't have the specifics of the change order. An A5 will function exactly like an A6 does. It is Yeild only. sample A6 PCBs are coming into the factory end of march. How long will PVT take? On paper, if everything works according to NOMINAL schedules, then we would schedule 2-3 PVT runs ( run, test, tweak, run,test,tweak, run,test,tweak) If my product were the only product we built and if all tests were nominal, that would take a couple weeks. Then comes production. This too needs to be scheduled. If I guess at this stage I put huge pressure on engineering when they are trying to perfect this device. what is the point in that? The next significant Milestone will be the first PVT run. I'll update folks when that happens -Original Message- From: Michael Shiloh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:25 AM To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Cc: steve Subject: Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status Hi Ian, Since I'm in California and the factory is in China, it's a little difficult for me to know exactly what the plan is and where there are concerns and weaknesses. As far as I can tell there is some concern that the yield initially may not be as high as we would like, and that some tweaking will be necessary. Until we manufacture a trial run, we won't know whether tweaking will be necessary or how extensive this tweaking needs to be. So, sadly, I don't know how long PVT will take and have no timeline. Perhaps those of you with more mass-production manufacturing experience can speak from your experiences. Michael ian douglas wrote: > Hi Michael (and Steve), > > I'm surprised nobody has asked yet: > > I know Michael himself has admitted that Openmoko has been historically > bad at estimating delivery dates, but is there *any* chance on getting > an updated timeline now that we have this news about the A5/A6? > > IE: How long can we (reasonably) expect the design update from A5 to A6 > expect to take? Will the PVT take a week? Two weeks? How long will final > production take to ramp up and start seeing units make their way to > shipping departments? > > Ian > > Michael Shiloh wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: >> >> >> The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production >> Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. >> We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. >> >> The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to >> make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. >> >> Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner
Michael, Do you need people to physically test the phones that are being run on this process? (: I'm sure you could easily find several hundred volunteers. . . .Shawn - Original Message From: Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: List for OpenMoko community discussion ; steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 12:55:44 PM Subject: Further details of theprocess as we ramp up production of Freerunner Hi everyone, I just received from Steve further details of the manufacturing process we have planned. I quote: Bringing a product to mass production goes through several steps. For Freerunner, since we intend it to be usable by the mass market, we are being very diligent. Here are the milestones: Design Verification Testing (DVT) - A 100 or so phones have been built for design verification testing. These are based on A5. These phones are ready to enter testing. This testing will include: FUNCTIONAL TESTING PERFORMANCE TESTING COMPLIANCE ( like FCC and CE) CLIMATIC TESTING When DVT is completed successfully to the satisfaction of all parties involved, we start PVT: Pilot Verification Test (PVT) - PVT is staged to go. This means we have the parts in the factory ready to do the build and we are analyzing the results of DVT. In PVT we are looking to perfect the design for production so that we get a good yield when we decide to build a million phones. The PVT runs are staggered: for example, we may build 100 phones and test them, then make a minor change and build another 100, tweak again and then perhaps build 200. Repeat until we verify that the product is ready for true mass production. Steve explicitly says: "If the community would like, I will update them on each and every stage. (I've already answered yes for all of you :-) Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
