Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:53 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: She said that the MacBook Air was too expensive because it cost at least $1800. I'm pointing out that she can get one for half that at the online Apple Store. She didn't say exactly what her budget was. Maybe, like Lauren, it's $1000. I think that one of the flaws exposed in those new MS ads is that these laptop hunters are obviously not doing their homework in advance of going out to make their purchases. It seems pretty clear to me that the laptop hunters have walked into the Best Buy store having no idea at all about what computer they want to buy other than to have established a price that they are willing to pay. Anyone who goes to a Best Buy or to any other big box store, and is not already armed with a fair degree of knowledge about what it is that they are seeking to purchase, is in big trouble. They are not educated consumers. They are prey for salesperson's who will try to get them to buy whatever will generate the highest commission for themselves and best suit what the store wants to currently promote. The laptop hunters all seem to be computer neophytes, and perhaps have previously never owned a computer. The ads are certainly not intended to teach one how to go about making an informed purchase, but rather to simply go out and buy a PC. Folks who see these ads should be able to learn a valuable lesson about how to NOT go about making a computer purchase regardless of what brand they may eventually buy. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On May 25, 2009, at 11:33 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: Unfortunately it won't fit in my cargo pocket so it's not for me. A good tailor could solve your problem. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I think the reason someone called you an Apple-head is because within the question the she specifically said an air was too expensive, she wanted a netbook. Your answer was to ignore what she wanted and her price range and tell her to...get an Air. We've been here before, for some of us price actually is an issue. The mac lovers on this list can't seem to understand that some of the other users have budgets and cost is an important factor. I feel often as if I'm asking for advice on buying a nice family car only from those who buy jaguars and bmws. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 8:33 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: The *netbook* is a niche product Accordingly, some posters have theorized that there are some netbooks out there that are not crap. They also quoted prices for such non-crappy netbooks that were close to the price of the MBA. Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. I'm not an Apple head, not even a MacHead. Silly. I use the best tool I can afford for the job--any platform. I use whatever works best, has the fewest problems, needs least tech support. Or I use whatever is given to me free. The MBA is a lightweight notebook [3 lb] that weighs less than the ASUS Eee 1000HE [3.25 lb], around the same as the HP Mini Note [depending on configuration], same as MSI Wind. Yes, you can have a lightweight computer that runs plenty of full versions of software without choking, and the screen/resolution is easy on the eyes too. Unfortunately it won't fit in my cargo pocket so it's not for me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On May 26, 2009, at 9:25 PM, mike wrote: I feel often as if I'm asking for advice on buying a nice family car only from those who buy jaguars and bmws. You keep beating the drum for that tired old M$ Laptop Hunters propaganda. As previously posted... Refurbished MacBook Air 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 13.3-inch glossy widescreen display 2GB memory 80GB 4200-rpm PATA hard drive Built-in 802.11n Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR Built-in iSight Camera $999.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB003LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw Even cheepo Lauren could have bought this one. So Woot was selling eeePCs for $159, but that would be like setting $159 afire. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Betty, I think the key was this sentence in your post: I use the best tool I can afford for the job You include the words can afford in the sentence but then seem to ignore them and recommend the expensive option for everyone. That's the way it comes across, anyway. The simple fact is that not everyone can afford an $1800 MBA. They may, however, be able to afford a $300 MSI or whatever. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
It is silly of me to advise a sub 500 dollar computer when asked, obviously i should have told her she was too ignorant to know what she wanted and told her to buy a MBA. You are correct again, Tom. Apologies for my ignorance. Sent from my iPod On May 26, 2009, at 7:07 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On May 26, 2009, at 9:25 PM, mike wrote: I feel often as if I'm asking for advice on buying a nice family car only from those who buy jaguars and bmws. You keep beating the drum for that tired old M$ Laptop Hunters propaganda. As previously posted... Refurbished MacBook Air 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 13.3-inch glossy widescreen display2GB memory 80GB 4200-rpm PATA hard drive Built-in 802.11n Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR Built-in iSight Camera $999.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB003LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw Even cheepo Lauren could have bought this one. So Woot was selling eeePCs for $159, but that would be like setting $159 afire. *** ** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** *** ** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
You keep beating the drum for that tired old M$ Laptop Hunters propaganda. As previously posted... Refurbished MacBook Air 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 13.3-inch glossy widescreen display 2GB memory 80GB 4200-rpm PATA hard drive Built-in 802.11n Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR Built-in iSight Camera $999.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB003LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw Even cheepo Lauren could have bought this one. Ah, I see. Anyone can afford a thousand-dollar computer that is (to use your own words) stripped of features to make it more portable. Do you truly not see any difference between $325 and $1,000? You really don't understand that there are many who could afford $325 but not $1,000? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I think the reason someone called you an Apple-head is because within the question the she specifically said an air was too expensive, she wanted a netbook. Your answer was to ignore what she wanted and her price range and tell her to...get an Air. We've been here before, for some of us price actually is an issue. She said that the MacBook Air was too expensive because it cost at least $1800. I'm pointing out that she can get one for half that at the online Apple Store. She didn't say exactly what her budget was. Maybe, like Lauren, it's $1000. A netbook is awfully basic to use as a research computer. A full-sized notebook is better suited to the software she will need, but it's too heavy. A 1/2 price MacBook Air is an example of a compromise. There are PC notebooks that have better specs than netbooks--bigger, and/or more powerful, but light. Search for one. If Apple can do it, others can too. Look for Toshiba Portege, or the tiny Sony Vaio P530, not one of the cheap little netbooks. Both notebooks weigh less than 3 pounds. You get what you pay for, but sometimes you pay less for good stuff in the long run. Find a refurb or a sale or a leftover, however a refurb MacBook Air will cost about the same as either of those. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: I've heard runs hot, and slower than other Macs. No real experience on my part. The Air is the machine you give the hands off CEO who doesn't do all that much with it. The Air is a niche product, an ultra portable laptop. It was stripped of anything unnecessary so that it would be as easy to carry as possible. I think a lot of reviewers did not understand what it was intended for. They kept bringing up missing features, but if you valued those missing features over size and weight then you were not the customer that the Air was designed for. Hmm. Let's try this another way. . . The *netbook* is a niche product, an ultra portable laptop. It was stripped of anything unnecessary so that it would be as easy to carry as possible. I think a lot of reviewers did not understand what it was intended for. They kept bringing up missing features, but if you valued those missing features over size and weight then you were not the customer that the *netbook* was designed for. I'm just sayin' * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Well see...the problem is, Tom *hates* anything not Apple...so the ultra portable niche product stripped of anything unnecessary that does not say Apple is a waste of hardware...stick that happy mac logo on it and indeed it's a perfect machine. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 5:04 AM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: I've heard runs hot, and slower than other Macs. No real experience on my part. The Air is the machine you give the hands off CEO who doesn't do all that much with it. The Air is a niche product, an ultra portable laptop. It was stripped of anything unnecessary so that it would be as easy to carry as possible. I think a lot of reviewers did not understand what it was intended for. They kept bringing up missing features, but if you valued those missing features over size and weight then you were not the customer that the Air was designed for. Hmm. Let's try this another way. . . The *netbook* is a niche product, an ultra portable laptop. It was stripped of anything unnecessary so that it would be as easy to carry as possible. I think a lot of reviewers did not understand what it was intended for. They kept bringing up missing features, but if you valued those missing features over size and weight then you were not the customer that the *netbook* was designed for. I'm just sayin' * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On May 25, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Reid Katan wrote: The *netbook* is a niche product Accordingly, some posters have theorized that there are some netbooks out there that are not crap. They also quoted prices for such non- crappy netbooks that were close to the price of the MBA. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Accordingly, some posters have theorized that there are some netbooks out there that are not crap. They also quoted prices for such non- crappy netbooks that were close to the price of the MBA. That's true, if $329 is close to $1,799. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 11:36 AM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Well see...the problem is, Tom *hates* anything not Apple... Now, that statement is completely untrue, cannot be substantiated by a viewing of the archives of this forum, and Mr. Piwowar, as opinionated as he may seem to be, is undeserving of such charge. I am not speaking here for him, but merely stating my opinion about what you have said. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: On May 25, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Reid Katan wrote: The *netbook* is a niche product Accordingly, some posters have theorized that there are some netbooks out there that are not crap. They also quoted prices for such non-crappy netbooks that were close to the price of the MBA. Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On May 25, 2009, at 3:03 PM, Reid Katan wrote: Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. Yes, somebody who knows what they are talking about. Oh I forgot, the latest WFB mantra: anybody who knows what they are talking about is disqualified. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. So what. She isn't afraid to say what she thinks and that is a good thing in my book. As long as we seem to be applying labels, try me. I think that as an OS and platform independent guy I'm at least qualified to render an opinion. The netbooks that exist are not bad, the Mac Air is arguably very nice. Yes it is expensive. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Whether or not that last statement below was written possibly with tongue in cheek, I'm glad to see Betty's missives appear on this list. Myself, I wish there was less of the unnecessary ad hominem/ad feminam stuff (yes, I know Wikipedia says it's a mistaken neologism!) that IMHO there is too much of. Thanks for listening, and have a good evening. -Andy Reid Katan wrote: Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: On May 25, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Reid Katan wrote: The *netbook* is a niche product Accordingly, some posters have theorized that there are some netbooks out there that are not crap. They also quoted prices for such non-crappy netbooks that were close to the price of the MBA. Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Quoting Eric S. Sande esa...@erols.com: Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. So what. She isn't afraid to say what she thinks and that is a So what, indeed. My original gripe was with Tom. He whines about how useless netbooks are then lavishes glowing praise on the Air that fit perfectly with netbooks. He's the one that brought up pricing. I just reminded him who it was (the Apple-head thing was less about Betty than a dig at Tom :-). good thing in my book. As long as we seem to be applying labels, try me. I think that as an OS and platform independent guy I'm at least qualified to render an opinion. Hey. Don't make me no never mind what OSes people use. I have a Mac. I have PeeCees. One of these days, I'll get around to putting Linux on one. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Quoting Andy Gallant a...@agallant.com: Whether or not that last statement below was written possibly with tongue in cheek, I'm glad to see Betty's missives appear on this list. Hey. I'm with you. Betty's da bomb. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On May 25, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Reid Katan wrote: So what, indeed. My original gripe was with Tom. He whines about how useless netbooks are then lavishes glowing praise on the Air that fit perfectly with netbooks. He's the one that brought up pricing. I just reminded him who it was (the Apple-head thing was less about Betty than a dig at Tom :-). You can't see any difference between these two computers? I guess you are auditioning for the next edition of Laptop Hunters. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
So what, indeed. My original gripe was with Tom. He whines about how useless netbooks are then lavishes glowing praise on the Air that fit perfectly with netbooks. He's the one that brought up pricing. I just reminded him who it was (the Apple-head thing was less about Betty than a dig at Tom :-). You can't see any difference between these two computers? I guess you are auditioning for the next edition of Laptop Hunters. Ah, Tactic 1327(2)(b): Try to win the argument by responding derisively to something the opponent didn't say. Reid pointed out, and quite accurately, that everything you said in that specific message applies equally to netbooks: features are stripped to make it as easy to carry as possible; if you value those missing features over size and weight, you are not the target customer; etc. This is NOT the same as saying that there's no difference. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Mon, 25 May 2009 21:20:21 -0400, t.piwowar wrote: On May 25, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Reid Katan wrote: So what, indeed. My original gripe was with Tom. He whines about how useless netbooks are then lavishes glowing praise on the Air that fit perfectly with netbooks. He's the one that brought up pricing. I just reminded him who it was (the Apple-head thing was less about Betty than a dig at Tom :-). You can't see any difference between these two computers? I guess you Okay. Last time. These are your words: The Air is a niche product, an ultra portable laptop. It was stripped of anything unnecessary so that it would be as easy to carry as possible. I think a lot of reviewers did not understand what it was intended for. They kept bringing up missing features, but if you valued those missing features over size and weight then you were not the customer that the Air was designed for. Substitute netbook for Air, and, no there isn't much difference. . .except for price. are auditioning for the next edition of Laptop Hunters. Sure. If Microsoft wants to buy me a computer, who am I to say no? I can sell it and get a Mac. -- R:\katan LET'S GO METS!! LET'S GO METS!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
The *netbook* is a niche product Accordingly, some posters have theorized that there are some netbooks out there that are not crap. They also quoted prices for such non-crappy netbooks that were close to the price of the MBA. Yeah. That was Betty. An Apple-head. I'm not an Apple head, not even a MacHead. Silly. I use the best tool I can afford for the job--any platform. I use whatever works best, has the fewest problems, needs least tech support. Or I use whatever is given to me free. The MBA is a lightweight notebook [3 lb] that weighs less than the ASUS Eee 1000HE [3.25 lb], around the same as the HP Mini Note [depending on configuration], same as MSI Wind. Yes, you can have a lightweight computer that runs plenty of full versions of software without choking, and the screen/resolution is easy on the eyes too. Unfortunately it won't fit in my cargo pocket so it's not for me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:49 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: the way most tech-minded folks I know, but if it were cheaper by half, I'd buy it in a heartbeat... I missed this before. Which tech-minded folks recommend against the Air? Why would they do this? This is news to me. I've heard runs hot, and slower than other Macs. No real experience on my part. The Air is the machine you give the hands off CEO who doesn't do all that much with it. John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
John Duncan Yoyo wrote: On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:49 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: the way most tech-minded folks I know, but if it were cheaper by half, I'd buy it in a heartbeat... I missed this before. Which tech-minded folks recommend against the Air? Why would they do this? This is news to me. I've heard runs hot, and slower than other Macs. No real experience on my part. The Air is the machine you give the hands off CEO who doesn't do all that much with it. Huh. Last I heard, David Pogue of the NY Times, one of the most technically savvy, knowledgeable and productive tech journalists I know of, uses the Air a lot and loves it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Jordan jor17...@gmail.com wrote: John Duncan Yoyo wrote: On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:49 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: the way most tech-minded folks I know, but if it were cheaper by half, I'd buy it in a heartbeat... I missed this before. Which tech-minded folks recommend against the Air? Why would they do this? This is news to me. I've heard runs hot, and slower than other Macs. No real experience on my part. The Air is the machine you give the hands off CEO who doesn't do allthat much with it. Huh. Last I heard, David Pogue of the NY Times, one of the most technically savvy, knowledgeable and productive tech journalists I know of, uses the Air a lot and loves it. It may be more than enough machine for a journalist. I was listing the complaints I heard elsewhere. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I've heard runs hot, and slower than other Macs. No real experience on my part. The Air is the machine you give the hands off CEO who doesn't do all that much with it. The Air is a niche product, an ultra portable laptop. It was stripped of anything unnecessary so that it would be as easy to carry as possible. I think a lot of reviewers did not understand what it was intended for. They kept bringing up missing features, but if you valued those missing features over size and weight then you were not the customer that the Air was designed for. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
If I were traveling with a net book running Windows I would want to also bring along an extra drive to back up my files. And a CD like the Ultimate Book Disk with anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-hijack, disk recovery utilities, etc. etc. would also be nice, except that most net books do not include a CD drive. If I were traveling I would want to also avoid black cats, the number 13 and walking under ladders. And avoid stepping on cracks in the sidewalk, spilled salt, broken mirrors, carry a rabbit's foot etc. etc. A string of garlic cloves would also be nice, except that most cities do not have vampires. Fixed that for you. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
1) Buyers of net books are so unhappy with their purchases that return rates are running over 1/3. NOTE: I'm just repeating what I heard on the podcast. Again, this is the error of the monolithic mindset by Apple adherents. Return rates are running over 1/3 of which brands and for what reasons? Is this better or worse than larger laptops and are some brands worse than others? Making a similar claim that subcompact cars have a return rate of over 1/3 is equally sloppy. Sound bites like this are useless, except to paint badly with a broad brush. Details matter. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I read a couple of articles after listening to said podcast. Netbooks it seems are not falling in sales, but the half dozen articles from different sources did seem to list a high return rate...of the linux based laptops. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote: 1) Buyers of net books are so unhappy with their purchases that return rates are running over 1/3. NOTE: I'm just repeating what I heard on the podcast. Again, this is the error of the monolithic mindset by Apple adherents. Return rates are running over 1/3 of which brands and for what reasons? Is this better or worse than larger laptops and are some brands worse than others? Making a similar claim that subcompact cars have a return rate of over 1/3 is equally sloppy. Sound bites like this are useless, except to paint badly with a broad brush. Details matter. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:59 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: I read a couple of articles after listening to said podcast. Netbooks it seems are not falling in sales, but the half dozen articles from different sources did seem to list a high return rate...of the linux based laptops. Time will tell if sales of so-called netbooks are the real thing or are primarily being driven by the type of buyers that always just have to be in on the latest popular gizmos. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Products that are fads tend to die out after a year or two. My daughter is cleaning out part of our garage and took away a few garbage bags full of Beanie Babies. I remember standing in line tog et those things a decade ago, and now they sit in garbage bags in the garage. Time will tell. Stewart At 01:35 PM 5/23/2009, you wrote: On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:59 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: I read a couple of articles after listening to said podcast. Netbooks it seems are not falling in sales, but the half dozen articles from different sources did seem to list a high return rate...of the linux based laptops. Time will tell if sales of so-called netbooks are the real thing or are primarily being driven by the type of buyers that always just have to be in on the latest popular gizmos. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: Products that are fads tend to die out after a year or two. I am not saying that netbooks are nothing but a fad. However, it is quite likely that if manufacturers slightly redesign them and slap a different name on them, netbook sales could quickly dwindle while sales of the newly named devices soar. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
That happens too. However the few models that seem to be really rocking will probably not change much over the next year or so. I do know that there is a dual core Atom out there but I have not seen it much yet for netbook sales. One of my members is constructing all in one boxes for a specialized software package he is making for a specific industry and they will be DC powered boxes for remote locations. He is using the dual core Atom for this computer. Stewart At 02:00 PM 5/23/2009, you wrote: On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: Products that are fads tend to die out after a year or two. I am not saying that netbooks are nothing but a fad. However, it is quite likely that if manufacturers slightly redesign them and slap a different name on them, netbook sales could quickly dwindle while sales of the newly named devices soar. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Sound bites like this are useless, except to paint badly with a broad brush. Details matter. Any information that conflicts with your preconceived notions is of course useless. Anyone considering a net book purchase should be aware that a large portion of net book purchasers end up unhappy. People who hate Macs and love Windows probably have a different threshold of pain and, like G. Gordon Liddy, probably try to impress others by thrusting their hands into flames and while using a net book. See it doesn't hurt at all. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
sources did seem to list a high return rate...of the linux based laptops. This computer did not come with Confiker. All my PC owning friends have Confiker. They say the won't let me join their bot net until I get Confiker. Take this defective computer back and give me one with Confiker! Sure, sure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
If you picked an OS with a base above 3% you too could enjoy botnets! On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: sources did seem to list a high return rate...of the linux based laptops. This computer did not come with Confiker. All my PC owning friends have Confiker. They say the won't let me join their bot net until I get Confiker. Take this defective computer back and give me one with Confiker! Sure, sure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I read a couple of articles after listening to said podcast. Netbooks it seems are not falling in sales, but the half dozen articles from different sources did seem to list a high return rate...of the linux based laptops. Another point is that it doesn't account for those who return one model and replace it with a different one. We returned an Asus Eee--and bought a Dell Mini. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
When I was in target a month ago, I saw a Netbook with Linux for just over 200 in their clearance bin. Boy was I tempted. Stewart At 04:04 PM 5/23/2009, you wrote: Anyone considering a net book purchase should be aware that a large portion of net book purchasers end up unhappy. A large portion of *Linux* netbook users end up unhappy, according to what Mike read. What was your purpose in omitting that critical detail? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Any information that conflicts with your preconceived notions is of course useless. This is not information. It's null data. Anyone considering a net book purchase should be aware that a large portion of net book purchasers end up unhappy. An even larger proportion, 100% more, were obviously happy with their purchase. Again, without knowing the context, the what and the why, it's just background noise. People who hate Macs and love Windows probably have a different threshold of pain and, like G. Gordon Liddy, probably try to impress others by thrusting their hands into flames and while using a net book. See it doesn't hurt at all. Easy now, Tom. Don't go all McGovern on us. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
So all in all, this is what I'm leaning to purchasing. I investigated the MSI Winds, the Samsungs, Dells, Asus, Acer... etc. but found that the HP mini 2140, though on the more expensive end, has features that seem better for me. It got quite a good review in laptop magazine. It can be ordered with 2 GB ram, and with a screen res of 1366 x 768 (this is important, as I am an art historian and work with images). hard drive has 160 GB -- enough to store the pdfs and jpgs for project-specific research on the go. The 6-cell battery lasts for over 7.5 hours, and there is built-in super-fast recharging capacity (can be at 92% within an hour). With 7 hours of battery, I would most often be able to avoid having to walk around with the power charger too. It comes loaded with XP Professional (and disks to upgrade to Vista Business, which I prob wouldn't do). It comes loaded with various levels of MS Office that need to be licensed after 60 days (there's a key for that) at an addi tional cost. That's the part I find most annoying. But Open Office won't do... the formatting on powerpoint presentations, and even word processor, won't transfer glitch free. The HP comes with 2 USB ports and an Express Card slot for mobile broadband card (but I'll probably go with a pre-paid dongle), a memory card reader, which is geat for my camera. Even though it's extra weight, one item you probably won't regret carrying around constantly the first time it's needed is a spare battery. That 7.5 hour estimate makes lots of assumptions that your suggested usage won't ever meet, like for example setting brightness at some minimal level. If you're never more than 5 hours usage of your computer on batteries in a day, the six cell battery is likely sufficient, however even with a 9 cell battery, if you run out, you have to wait until you're back to do all kinds of things. One other suggestion, set MS products to auto-save every 3-5 minutes rather than the default length. You can possibly quickly make up for losing five minutes worth of work, but 15 can be devastating. Finally before you buy any netbook, go type a relatively long passage on the keyboard. There are netbooks with good stats and components but unusable keyboards, and others that just require a relatively minor period of adaptation. I can't for example adapt to your chosen model, no matter how hard I try, while friends of mine easily can. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
...I'd love the MacAir but not for $1800 for the flimsy version (solid state for $3000), since, as I said, I mainly work at my Imac, which I adore; by the way most tech-minded folks I know recommend against the Air, but if it were cheaper by half, I'd buy it in a heartbeat... Why not use a wheeled computer case, expecially one that can piggyback on full sized wheeled luggage? The wheels make it easier to use around towns, unless the location has unpaved and bumpy roads. For that roads like that I use a wheeled luggage carrier when I don't feel like using my backpack. Any computer that you get that's iMac size or larger will weigh more. But the netbooks will do considerably less. Buy the MB Air. That's what you want. The HD version is NOT flimsy [who told you that?]. Afraid of hard drives? Use a USB flash drive for you data--use two or three [and online] for backup. **Get out your credit card now**. Your MacBook Air is featured today at the Apple Store blue tag sale: Refurbished MacBook Air 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 13.3-inch glossy widescreen display 2GB memory 80GB 4200-rpm PATA hard drive Built-in 802.11n Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR Built-in iSight Camera $999.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB003LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw Or Refurbished MacBook Air 1.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2GB memory 80GB 4200-rpm PATA hard drive $1099.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/G0ER0LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw Refurbished MacBook Air 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2GB memory 64GB solid-state drive $1,199.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/G0ER1LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw Refurbished MacBook Air 1.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2GB memory 64GB solid-state drive $1,299.00 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB450LL/A?mco=MjE0NDk5Mw more: http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac?mco=MTE3NjY Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
the way most tech-minded folks I know, but if it were cheaper by half, I'd buy it in a heartbeat... I missed this before. Which tech-minded folks recommend against the Air? Why would they do this? This is news to me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Marcia, A netbook will probably not do what you need. They're very limited. MS Office--forget it. There's a good reason why they're called netbooks instead of notebooks, although they're much bigger than the netbooks two years ago, some of which could use SIM cards. Consider this first: *How will you be traveling? - Fly to one location and take taxi, train, bus, ferry to your destination? - Or pick up a car at the airport and drive to your hotel, apartment, studio, house? - Take notes in the field on PDA, transfer to your notebook each day? *How much luggage will you be carrying? I travel for a month or so at a time. I have one 21 carry-on convertible suitcase/backpack and a messenger bag. Anything I forget or can't fit I probably don't need, or can buy, especially in Spain where I can shop at Alcampo, Carrefour, Eroski, and at the traveling mercadillos. *Will you only be traveling once a year for research? Do you really want to limit yourself to a netbook all year for a month of travel? Can you do all of your own tech support while traveling? How often in the US will you need a notebook? Many public libraries in Europe have computers and printers for public use, even in relatively remote locations. Did you know that GSM phone service is everywhere including places that are nowhere? You can get a USB dongle for your own computer and use a local 3G network [Movistar/Telefónica or virtual service from Eroski, Carrefour, etc.] if free or paid WiFi isn't available. Or you might be able to tether your PDA/cell phone and avoid the dongle. Use a local SIM. The personal item bag [briefcase, messenger bag, small backpack, etc.] must weigh less than around 6 kilos, or combined carry-on plus personal item bag limit of 18 kilos. A MacBook weighs 5 pounds or 2.27 kilos. That leaves you a lot more allowance for other items. Today's deal at the online Apple Store is a MB 2.1GHz w/superdrive, $849. Get a real computer, not a crippled one, and use a PDA. It's not worth it to sacrifice a good computer to avoid carrying an extra two pounds of weight. FWIW, I'm traveling with an iPod Touch, and use internet cafes and libraries, so I can travel light. Betty p.s. I love my 24 iMac too! Marcia Kupfer kupfe...@osu.edu escribió: I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. I need it to do all these very basic things: 1) run Firefox. I use Firefox because of an add-on, Zotero... 2) be able to connect to internet NOT through free wi-fi... pre-paid access locally in the European countries in which I do my research, a SIMS card or a broadband dongle...3) word processing with .doc files I can transfer to my Mac ...4) create, edit .ppt files ...5) would be great if it could store my .jpg files...6) read pdf files with Adobe reader... Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel?... Will any Netbook accommodate a broadband dongle on a USB or SIMS card? -- the specs never mention this. I was thinking of a Samsung NC 10 or an HP mini (a 2410). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Betty how familiar are you with a Netbook? My son has one it runs just about everything I can run on my Dell full size. They are very versatile and work very well. Stewart At 11:02 AM 5/22/2009, you wrote: Marcia, A netbook will probably not do what you need. They're very limited. MS Office--forget it. There's a good reason why they're called netbooks instead of notebooks, although they're much bigger than the netbooks two years ago, some of which could use SIM cards. Consider this first: *How will you be traveling? - Fly to one location and take taxi, train, bus, ferry to your destination? - Or pick up a car at the airport and drive to your hotel, apartment, studio, house? - Take notes in the field on PDA, transfer to your notebook each day? *How much luggage will you be carrying? I travel for a month or so at a time. I have one 21 carry-on convertible suitcase/backpack and a messenger bag. Anything I forget or can't fit I probably don't need, or can buy, especially in Spain where I can shop at Alcampo, Carrefour, Eroski, and at the traveling mercadillos. *Will you only be traveling once a year for research? Do you really want to limit yourself to a netbook all year for a month of travel? Can you do all of your own tech support while traveling? How often in the US will you need a notebook? Many public libraries in Europe have computers and printers for public use, even in relatively remote locations. Did you know that GSM phone service is everywhere including places that are nowhere? You can get a USB dongle for your own computer and use a local 3G network [Movistar/Telefónica or virtual service from Eroski, Carrefour, etc.] if free or paid WiFi isn't available. Or you might be able to tether your PDA/cell phone and avoid the dongle. Use a local SIM. The personal item bag [briefcase, messenger bag, small backpack, etc.] must weigh less than around 6 kilos, or combined carry-on plus personal item bag limit of 18 kilos. A MacBook weighs 5 pounds or 2.27 kilos. That leaves you a lot more allowance for other items. Today's deal at the online Apple Store is a MB 2.1GHz w/superdrive, $849. Get a real computer, not a crippled one, and use a PDA. It's not worth it to sacrifice a good computer to avoid carrying an extra two pounds of weight. FWIW, I'm traveling with an iPod Touch, and use internet cafes and libraries, so I can travel light. Betty p.s. I love my 24 iMac too! Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Went to a professional seminar last night where the PowerPoint presentation was run off of a netbook. It crashed halfway through, much to the embarrassment of the presenter. Took his assistant 5 minutes to get it rebooted and back to where it was. While I don't know the details of why it went down, a lack of system resources comes to mind. Richard P. Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel?... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Not so. Had a PPT presentation done with audio done recently no problems. Part of the problem is that they need to make sure it works before putting it on anything. Many times folks put these together and never run through them before presenting. If it crashes while running through it, you have problems. Sometimes they put video in there and forget to include it with their presentation. One instance of a crash does not a fault of the computer make. Stewart At 11:28 AM 5/22/2009, you wrote: Went to a professional seminar last night where the PowerPoint presentation was run off of a netbook. It crashed halfway through, much to the embarrassment of the presenter. Took his assistant 5 minutes to get it rebooted and back to where it was. While I don't know the details of why it went down, a lack of system resources comes to mind. Richard P. Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel?... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
A friend of mine was over with his new macbook pro with 4 gigs of ram and the 7200 HD option...it crashed while he was here. I don't hold it against it however. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Richard P. richs...@gmail.com wrote: Went to a professional seminar last night where the PowerPoint presentation was run off of a netbook. It crashed halfway through, much to the embarrassment of the presenter. Took his assistant 5 minutes to get it rebooted and back to where it was. While I don't know the details of why it went down, a lack of system resources comes to mind. Richard P. Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel?... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
The MSI wind has received great reviews, runs office just fine and weighs about half the weight of the macbook. You can have one for anywhere from 330 to 400 bux. The macbook is a great system also, but at twice the cost, it's worth looking at the wind. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Marcia, A netbook will probably not do what you need. They're very limited. MS Office--forget it. There's a good reason why they're called netbooks instead of notebooks, although they're much bigger than the netbooks two years ago, some of which could use SIM cards. Consider this first: *How will you be traveling? - Fly to one location and take taxi, train, bus, ferry to your destination? - Or pick up a car at the airport and drive to your hotel, apartment, studio, house? - Take notes in the field on PDA, transfer to your notebook each day? *How much luggage will you be carrying? I travel for a month or so at a time. I have one 21 carry-on convertible suitcase/backpack and a messenger bag. Anything I forget or can't fit I probably don't need, or can buy, especially in Spain where I can shop at Alcampo, Carrefour, Eroski, and at the traveling mercadillos. *Will you only be traveling once a year for research? Do you really want to limit yourself to a netbook all year for a month of travel? Can you do all of your own tech support while traveling? How often in the US will you need a notebook? Many public libraries in Europe have computers and printers for public use, even in relatively remote locations. Did you know that GSM phone service is everywhere including places that are nowhere? You can get a USB dongle for your own computer and use a local 3G network [Movistar/Telefónica or virtual service from Eroski, Carrefour, etc.] if free or paid WiFi isn't available. Or you might be able to tether your PDA/cell phone and avoid the dongle. Use a local SIM. The personal item bag [briefcase, messenger bag, small backpack, etc.] must weigh less than around 6 kilos, or combined carry-on plus personal item bag limit of 18 kilos. A MacBook weighs 5 pounds or 2.27 kilos. That leaves you a lot more allowance for other items. Today's deal at the online Apple Store is a MB 2.1GHz w/superdrive, $849. Get a real computer, not a crippled one, and use a PDA. It's not worth it to sacrifice a good computer to avoid carrying an extra two pounds of weight. FWIW, I'm traveling with an iPod Touch, and use internet cafes and libraries, so I can travel light. Betty p.s. I love my 24 iMac too! Marcia Kupfer kupfe...@osu.edu escribió: I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. I need it to do all these very basic things: 1) run Firefox. I use Firefox because of an add-on, Zotero... 2) be able to connect to internet NOT through free wi-fi... pre-paid access locally in the European countries in which I do my research, a SIMS card or a broadband dongle...3) word processing with .doc files I can transfer to my Mac ...4) create, edit .ppt files ...5) would be great if it could store my .jpg files...6) read pdf files with Adobe reader... Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel?... Will any Netbook accommodate a broadband dongle on a USB or SIMS card? -- the specs never mention this. I was thinking of a Samsung NC 10 or an HP mini (a 2410). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
A netbook will probably not do what you need. They're very limited. MS Office--forget it. Betty, this is simply false. As I mentioned in my response, my son runs Office 2007 on his Dell Mini, and it works fine. Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook. No problems with any of them. They are responsive and very usable. With all due respect, you can say that up is down all you want, but that doesn't make it so. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Went to a professional seminar last night where the PowerPoint presentation was run off of a netbook. It crashed halfway through, much to the embarrassment of the presenter. Took his assistant 5 minutes to get it rebooted and back to where it was. While I don't know the details of why it went down, a lack of system resources comes to mind. Richard, programs crash for many reasons. It strikes me that you're picking one of them without much evidence here. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Betty how familiar are you with a Netbook? My son has one it runs just about everything I can run on my Dell full size. They are very versatile and work very well. I tried one of the early netbooks in Europe. They were excellent. I'm very disappointed at the merely crippled small cheap notebooks that pass as netbooks now. Tried several. I wouldn't recommend them. They're not much more portable than a smaller notebook and less versatile than the original netbooks two years ago. Most of all, they don't fit in my cargo pocket, therefore they're kind of pointless for traveling light. I'd rather carry either my MacBook or iPod Touch or Nokia E- or N-series smart phone, which are more useful to me. Yes, Apple has spoiled me. So has Nokia, for its quality devices. For an Internet device, the cheap netbooks are OK, but the $1200-$4000 original netbooks were superb by comparison. Cheap and small hardly compares to quality and small. You gets what you pays for! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
9 times out of 10 when an MS office program crashes it has to do with the file it is loading or using than the program itself. Or it is because of an add-on that you have loaded. That has been my experience. Stewart At 11:53 AM 5/22/2009, you wrote: Richard, programs crash for many reasons. It strikes me that you're picking one of them without much evidence here. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
The ones you are talking about never took off as they were as expensive as a full size Laptop and people would not spend the money for them. The newer netbooks save money by using a smaller sized LCD and also a less expensive (plus power saving) processor that Intel came out with. The ones that fit into a cargo pocket just never took off. Do not equate cheap with junk. For what she asked for it fit the criteria. Smartphones are OK but they are not mini notebooks, and their keyboards are too cramped to get serious work done. The Netbooks fit the middle ground. Their battery life is better than notebooks, and not as good as smartphones/pda's. They fit a niche and a need. Once again they are not good for everybody nor are they meant to be. Stewart At 12:03 PM 5/22/2009, you wrote: I tried one of the early netbooks in Europe. They were excellent. I'm very disappointed at the merely crippled small cheap notebooks that pass as netbooks now. Tried several. I wouldn't recommend them. They're not much more portable than a smaller notebook and less versatile than the original netbooks two years ago. Most of all, they don't fit in my cargo pocket, therefore they're kind of pointless for traveling light. I'd rather carry either my MacBook or iPod Touch or Nokia E- or N-series smart phone, which are more useful to me. Yes, Apple has spoiled me. So has Nokia, for its quality devices. For an Internet device, the cheap netbooks are OK, but the $1200-$4000 original netbooks were superb by comparison. Cheap and small hardly compares to quality and small. You gets what you pays for! Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
1200-4000 dollar netbooks? Where are you shopping? Netbooks aren't supposed to be speed demons, or 4000 dollars. For what she described as needing, an MSI Wind would work great. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:03 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Betty how familiar are you with a Netbook? My son has one it runs just about everything I can run on my Dell full size. They are very versatile and work very well. I tried one of the early netbooks in Europe. They were excellent. I'm very disappointed at the merely crippled small cheap notebooks that pass as netbooks now. Tried several. I wouldn't recommend them. They're not much more portable than a smaller notebook and less versatile than the original netbooks two years ago. Most of all, they don't fit in my cargo pocket, therefore they're kind of pointless for traveling light. I'd rather carry either my MacBook or iPod Touch or Nokia E- or N-series smart phone, which are more useful to me. Yes, Apple has spoiled me. So has Nokia, for its quality devices. For an Internet device, the cheap netbooks are OK, but the $1200-$4000 original netbooks were superb by comparison. Cheap and small hardly compares to quality and small. You gets what you pays for! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Tried several. I wouldn't recommend them. Betty, that recommendation is based on YOUR needs and priorities. Marcia specified rather precisely what she needs to do, and current netbooks both meet her needs AND fit her budget. There isn't much point in saying, *I* don't like them. Better would be, Well, I don't like them myself, but it does sound like a netbook might be a good solution for you. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
That's right. Americans don't like to pay for quality, so they buy cheap little notebooks that don't do much and have keyboards that aren't much better than the smaller, more powerful devices. I'd rather save up and buy a quality device, quality bicycle, quality car, quality SW, quality anything than settle for the cheapest alternative. Most people don't care or don't want to wait until they can afford something better. Most don't need more than an Internet device and basic word processing anyway. With Linux, they're somewhat better. Therefore the new netbooks are popular. I simply wouldn't recommend any to someone who's traveling for business or research. The ones you are talking about never took off as they were as expensive as a full size Laptop and people would not spend the money for them. The newer netbooks save money by using a smaller sized LCD and also a less expensive (plus power saving) processor that Intel came out with. The ones that fit into a cargo pocket just never took off. Do not equate cheap with junk. For what she asked for it fit the criteria. Smartphones are OK but they are not mini notebooks, and their keyboards are too cramped to get serious work done. The Netbooks fit the middle ground. Their battery life is better than notebooks, and not as good as smartphones/pda's. They fit a niche and a need. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Any Netbook should be able to handle these basic tasks. Get FoxIt PDF viewer. Much lighter resource demands than Adobe. I was catching up with the Future Tense podcast this morning and they had a program about NetBooks a few days ago. Points to note... 1) Buyers of net books are so unhappy with their purchases that return rates are running over 1/3. 2) Many net book buyers stop using them soon after purchase. 3) Speculation that interest in net books is waning. Sales are down. NOTE: I'm just repeating what I heard on the podcast. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
9 times out of 10 when an MS office program crashes it has to do with the file it is loading or using than the program itself. *11 times out of 10 when an M$ program crashes it is not M$'s fault.* I just don't buy that. I see really, really bad engineering leading to a defective, buggy, virus-infested product. Risky to travel with. If I were traveling with a net book running Windows I would want to also bring along an extra drive to back up my files. And a CD like the Ultimate Book Disk with anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-hijack, disk recovery utilities, etc. etc. would also be nice, except that most net books do not include a CD drive. Maybe you want to bring a spare net book? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Betty that is a pretty pejorative diatribe. Buying quality does not mean you have to spend the bank. You can pay big bucks for a Mercedes but is it really that much better of a car than a Chevy Impala? I know it has more prestige, and looks better but is it really that much better of a car? Will it get me from point a to point b better? All man made things are tools. They are to be used to accomplish a purpose. When we start valuing them more than everything else we have put too much into them. I knew folks that only drove Cadillacs or Oldsmobile and they were nice cars. But they were no better than my Ford or my Chevy. Better is not a matter of money spent. It is a matter of getting the job done. Fitting the needs of the person using them and overall, being what you want. I can give a 12 year old a MacBook Air and it end up just sitting their doing nothing because that is not what they need or desire. They might have wanted a PS3, or (heaven forbid) a Xbox 360. I recently bought a used Dell Axim. In the near future I will have to give up my smartphone (Because of carrier policies) and will need a replacement PDA. That fit my needs at the cost I could spend. Is it as fancy as everything else out there? No but it fits my particular needs. You made a pejorative assessment on consumers because they do not share your values. They may not have the same needs you do. But do not condemn them because of it. Stewart At 01:35 PM 5/22/2009, you wrote: That's right. Americans don't like to pay for quality, so they buy cheap little notebooks that don't do much and have keyboards that aren't much better than the smaller, more powerful devices. I'd rather save up and buy a quality device, quality bicycle, quality car, quality SW, quality anything than settle for the cheapest alternative. Most people don't care or don't want to wait until they can afford something better. Most don't need more than an Internet device and basic word processing anyway. With Linux, they're somewhat better. Therefore the new netbooks are popular. I simply wouldn't recommend any to someone who's traveling for business or research. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Betty, that recommendation is based on YOUR needs and priorities. Yes I understand how the fact that Betty ACTUALLY DOES what is being discussed and has FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE certainly disqualifies her observations on the matter. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I was going by real world experience and my experience. I get PPT presentations from other along with spread sheets and documents. Often the problem is with the file not the program. PPT is one of those programs where you can imbed a lot of junk. It is often that junk that caused the PPT to crash and not the program. Just one persons real world experience not born of inbred prejudice. Stewart At 02:04 PM 5/22/2009, you wrote: 9 times out of 10 when an MS office program crashes it has to do with the file it is loading or using than the program itself. *11 times out of 10 when an M$ program crashes it is not M$'s fault.* I just don't buy that. I see really, really bad engineering leading to a defective, buggy, virus-infested product. Risky to travel with. If I were traveling with a net book running Windows I would want to also bring along an extra drive to back up my files. And a CD like the Ultimate Book Disk with anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-hijack, disk recovery utilities, etc. etc. would also be nice, except that most net books do not include a CD drive. Maybe you want to bring a spare net book? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
OS X has worse engineering but it sits un-virus infested. Try again. If OS X was the target of trojan writers everywhere the experience on the mac platform would be very different. This being said, facts are that OS X doesn't have anyone targeting it, so it is more safe in that regard. But it's not safer because of better engineering, that much is known. Buy the MSI wind and put OS X on it...best of both. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: 9 times out of 10 when an MS office program crashes it has to do with the file it is loading or using than the program itself. *11 times out of 10 when an M$ program crashes it is not M$'s fault.* I just don't buy that. I see really, really bad engineering leading to a defective, buggy, virus-infested product. Risky to travel with. If I were traveling with a net book running Windows I would want to also bring along an extra drive to back up my files. And a CD like the Ultimate Book Disk with anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-hijack, disk recovery utilities, etc. etc. would also be nice, except that most net books do not include a CD drive. Maybe you want to bring a spare net book? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Betty, that recommendation is based on YOUR needs and priorities. Yes I understand how the fact that Betty ACTUALLY DOES what is being discussed and has FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE certainly disqualifies her observations on the matter. Tom, clearly she does not. I will remind that she said MS Office--forget it, which is simply wrong. It works just fine. If what she ACTUALLY DOES this and has FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, why would she say that something that is demonstrably incorrect? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] urgent query
To everyone who responded: Thanks! The discussion, esp entre vous, has been a great help. Just to clear up a few things -- I have an Ipod touch (not phone), and it's note-taking functions are okay for lists or mnemonics -- but not for the research I do. I have to be able to work on my full-text academic papers in .doc format while in libraries, archives. Finding internet cafes and getting the thing to work in them is a royal pain. I don't own anything with cargo pockets -- so a netbook that fits in a large handbag is great. (I don't own a backpack -- not my style, I'm afraid -- but please, don't hold that against me!) 2 lbs. matters a great deal when you have to walk all over the place from early a.m. till late, and don't want to return to your hotel (not near the library) just to deposit your notebook. I was loaned a white MacBook for the year I've spent at Ohio State -- and have had to lug this thing around everyday, everywhere and truly hate it. I'll be glad to turn it in a couple of weeks. It's okay for college kids (and I've bought them for my kids), but it's too clunky for me -- I'd rather work on a great desktop and go lite while on the move. I'd love the MacAir but not for $1800 for the flimsy version (solid state for $3000), since, as I said, I mainly work at my Imac, which I adore; by the way most tech-minded folks I know recommend against the Air, but if it were cheaper by half, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. So all in all, this is what I'm leaning to purchasing. I investigated the MSI Winds, the Samsungs, Dells, Asus, Acer... etc. but found that the HP mini 2140, though on the more expensive end, has features that seem better for me. It got quite a good review in laptop magazine. It can be ordered with 2 GB ram, and with a screen res of 1366 x 768 (this is important, as I am an art historian and work with images). hard drive has 160 GB -- enough to store the pdfs and jpgs for project-specific research on the go. The 6-cell battery lasts for over 7.5 hours, and there is built-in super-fast recharging capacity (can be at 92% within an hour). With 7 hours of battery, I would most often be able to avoid having to walk around with the power charger too. It comes loaded with XP Professional (and disks to upgrade to Vista Business, which I prob wouldn't do). It comes loaded with various levels of MS Office that need to be licensed after 60 days (there's a key for that) at an additional cost. That's the part I find most annoying. But Open Office won't do... the formatting on powerpoint presentations, and even word processor, won't transfer glitch free. The HP comes with 2 USB ports and an Express Card slot for mobile broadband card (but I'll probably go with a pre-paid dongle), a memory card reader, which is geat for my camera. But I've not actually made the purchase yet. If there is something I'm missing do let me know. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Or they don't think that it *has* to be expensive to be quality and useful. I'm glad to see you think you know all americans so well. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:35 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: That's right. Americans don't like to pay for quality, so they buy cheap little notebooks that don't do much and have keyboards that aren't much better than the smaller, more powerful devices. I'd rather save up and buy a quality device, quality bicycle, quality car, quality SW, quality anything than settle for the cheapest alternative. Most people don't care or don't want to wait until they can afford something better. Most don't need more than an Internet device and basic word processing anyway. With Linux, they're somewhat better. Therefore the new netbooks are popular. I simply wouldn't recommend any to someone who's traveling for business or research. The ones you are talking about never took off as they were as expensive as a full size Laptop and people would not spend the money for them. The newer netbooks save money by using a smaller sized LCD and also a less expensive (plus power saving) processor that Intel came out with. The ones that fit into a cargo pocket just never took off. Do not equate cheap with junk. For what she asked for it fit the criteria. Smartphones are OK but they are not mini notebooks, and their keyboards are too cramped to get serious work done. The Netbooks fit the middle ground. Their battery life is better than notebooks, and not as good as smartphones/pda's. They fit a niche and a need. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
PPT is one of those programs where you can imbed a lot of junk. It is often that junk that caused the PPT to crash and not the program. Yes you can imbed junk. Should not the program parse the file on input and stop the import if the file has errors (or at least warn you of the errors). If an error is encountered is it too much to expect that the software will trap the error, produce a useful error message pointing to the problem, and not go down in flames? The M$ software ain't cheap and they make huge profits selling it. Should we not have the right to expect prorgam quality commensurate with the high price? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
That's right. Americans don't like to pay for quality... No, some Americans will pay for quality. Whatever that is. To say that Americans are unique in this regard is naive. I'd rather say that Americans largely view convenience as a higher value than technical merit. How else to explain MP3 players and Dell computers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
So all in all, this is what I'm leaning to purchasing. I investigated the MSI Winds, the Samsungs, Dells, Asus, Acer... etc. but found that the HP mini 2140, though on the more expensive end, has features that seem better for me. HP does appear to be taking the high road with net books. A couple on months ago I was looking at the HP 2133-FT268UA Mini Note PC (8.9-inch screen, 1.2 GHz C7-M Processor, 2 GB RAM, 120 GB Hard Drive, Vista Home Basic). $497.80. I'm sympathetic to the weight issue, but still worry about the infuriating smallness of the keyboard and screen and the underpowered processor. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. I need it to do all these very basic things: Marcia, I don't know much about the phone/Internet part, but they all have USB ports, so I assume that would be OK. All the rest is no problem. You will, however, need more than some of the machines' minimal configurations to be happy with your experience. Dell's low end, e.g., is 512MB RAM and 4GB SSD, which would not be enough for what you want to do. And since you mentioned expense, one thing you might consider is buying a minimal configuration and upgrading it yourself. My son has a Dell Mini 9 which he upgraded to 16GB RAM and a 64GB SSD for much less than Dell wanted. It was easy, but I can only speak for the Dell--I don't know how easy this is for the others. (He runs MS Office on it without difficulty, by the way, although OpenOffice is certainly an alternative.) Here's one other thought. It's just a consideration, not a recommendation, since it has downsides as well as upsides. My son blew away XP on his netbook and replaced it with Windows 7; it works great and is much nicer than XP. If he had known he was going to do this, he could have bought the Ubuntu version of the machine instead of XP and saved $50. There are two downsides to this. First and most obvious, Win7 has not yet been released and is therefore technically still in beta. Although the Win7 beta has been remarkably without incident, and millions are already using it every day, this may not be for you. Second, it's not a money saver, since eventually you are going to have to pay for Win7. It is, however, a much more pleasant experience than XP. As I said, this is just something to think about. As for the machines themselves, one other alternative you might consider is the MSI Wind, which a lot of people like. The U120 model, for example, has a 10 WSVGA screen, a 160GB drive, a memory card reader, and a webcam, and can be had for just $327 and free shipping from buy.com (http://tinyurl.com/ofr8ug). It's only 1GB but it looks like it's easy to upgrade to 2GB for $20 or so (http://tinyurl.com/avtlk5). If I were buying a netbook today, I would look at the MSIs pretty seriously. Enjoy. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
Hello! I'm new to the list, having joined for the express purpose of asking the following question. (I take it there is no way to search an archive of the list). I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. It's too bad you don't have a 20 iMac. We hear that those are very portable. (Yes, you would need the archives to get that one.) I need it to do all these very basic things: Any Netbook should be able to handle these basic tasks. Get FoxIt PDF viewer. Much lighter resource demands than Adobe. Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel? (And presumably these files will transfer to my Mac.) Probably. But as the Rev already pointed out, get OpenOffice. Will any Netbook accommodate a broadband dongle on a USB or SIMS card? -- the specs never mention this. All of them come with Ethernet and USB ports. I was thinking of a Samsung NC 10 or an HP mini (a 2410). I would take either the new Asus 1008HA EEE model or a Dell Mini 10 or 12. Dell has a bunch of them refurbed on their outlet site for under $400. http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/inspnnb_mini?c=uscs=22l =ens=dfh * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I'm new to the list, having joined for the express purpose of asking the following question. (I take it there is no way to search an archive of the list). Of course you can search our archives. Details at cguys.org. We are also indexed by Google. I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. A netbook can weigh as little as half a MacBook. That's tempting, but taking a PC on the road is a scary thought. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] urgent query
Hello! I'm new to the list, having joined for the express purpose of asking the following question. (I take it there is no way to search an archive of the list). I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. I need it to do all these very basic things: 1) run Firefox. I use Firefox because of an add-on, Zotero, that manages my bibliographic database and stores pdfs (about 1GB worth of material) 2) be able to connect to internet NOT through free wi-fi, because this is not at all convenient. I would like to buy some type of pre- paid access locally in the European countries in which I do my research, a SIMS card or a broadband dongle I can buy, say in Spain from Vodafone. I don't need broadband access in the US, so don't want to buy a Netbook that comes with a US plan. 3) word processing with .doc files I can transfer to my Mac (Naturally, I have Microsoft Office for Mac) 4) create, edit .ppt files that I can transfer to my Mac 5) would be great if it could store my .jpg files that I could view 6) read pdf files with Adobe reader Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel? (And presumably these files will transfer to my Mac.) Will any Netbook accommodate a broadband dongle on a USB or SIMS card? -- the specs never mention this. I was thinking of a Samsung NC 10 or an HP mini (a 2410). Grateful for any advice! Marcia * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] urgent query
I think the answer to all your questions are yes. They have multiple USB connectors which is the newest choice for the Phone dongles. They do not have PCMCIA card slots so be aware of that. Also you will need a external CD/DVD to load any CD/DVD based programs. Instead of using MS Office, download and install Openoffice from the net and use it to do all your stuff and then save them in MS format. All files written by Openoffice can be transferred to your Mac without a problem. The HP I think only has a SSD drive and they are kind of small. You will need external storage. (Which you can then use to transfer stuff to your Mac.) Stewart At 09:22 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote: Hello! I'm new to the list, having joined for the express purpose of asking the following question. (I take it there is no way to search an archive of the list). I love my Imac 24. But for my research I have to travel abroad periodically -- say, for up to 4-6 weeks at a time once a year. The MacBooks are just too heavy, too clunky for the kind of travel and fieldwork that I do. And MacAir is too expensive. So I have been exploring the option of a Netbook. I need it to do all these very basic things: 1) run Firefox. I use Firefox because of an add-on, Zotero, that manages my bibliographic database and stores pdfs (about 1GB worth of material) 2) be able to connect to internet NOT through free wi-fi, because this is not at all convenient. I would like to buy some type of pre- paid access locally in the European countries in which I do my research, a SIMS card or a broadband dongle I can buy, say in Spain from Vodafone. I don't need broadband access in the US, so don't want to buy a Netbook that comes with a US plan. 3) word processing with .doc files I can transfer to my Mac (Naturally, I have Microsoft Office for Mac) 4) create, edit .ppt files that I can transfer to my Mac 5) would be great if it could store my .jpg files that I could view 6) read pdf files with Adobe reader Will I be able to run microsoft office on a Netbook-- at least Word, PowerPoint and maybe Excel? (And presumably these files will transfer to my Mac.) Will any Netbook accommodate a broadband dongle on a USB or SIMS card? -- the specs never mention this. I was thinking of a Samsung NC 10 or an HP mini (a 2410). Grateful for any advice! Marcia * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
