Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mar 14/10/2003 à 02:15, Robert L Martin a écrit : 2 i would say put the following on the desktop (maybe as a killable service) 1 icons for the most common tasks (DTP Net and MM) 2 icons for the currently mounted drives (note no icons for unmounted drives or invisible ones) 3 a trio of SUID ROOT scripts to : a shutdown the system use pam/sudo and set a special group for this. At this point you can do this easily ( cf one the the dm, and even logout window ) b reboot Xwindows only (user switch) CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE c do a full system reboot cf note 1 --- Je suis assis sous un chene qui est un peu plie
[Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
This message is the result of conversations whith newbies that tried to use Mandrake 9.1/9.2 and after having been conviced and happy with the distribution are re-using Windows more and more for a couple of annoying and easily solvable problems. My point of view about newbie difficulties (which I heard FROM NEWBIES themselves) with Mandrake is that there are roughly four issues: 1. The package 2. The menues 3. The language 4. The license 1. The packages are a good thing but there should be a frontend to the package systems where we talk about apps and plugins. The apps should be organized in a tree that should be understood by the end-user. A typical end-user doesn't know what the graphical environment category could contain, as an exemple. Even desktop or Bureautique or Network should not be seen. More over, only major apps should be shown, with a comment that only says something like Open Office is the leading text writer, spreadsheet tool under Linux, or Abiword is a text writer that is lighter than Open Office... 2. The menues should be nearly empty, with only newbie oriented apps in it. A First level should only contain the labels Internet (netwok doesn't mean much for a user, and less correctness on language is sometime a good thing), Programs, Multimedia, Sound (A newbie doesn't think about sound being multimedia), Close The System (session is har to understand too). Typically a user only needs a multimedia player, a sound player, a desktop suite, a web browser, a mail reader, tools for burning CDs and rip CDs. 3. I focused hear on the french translation but it also applies to others. Every term like réseau environnent graphique bureautique is technical for a newbie and shouldn't be used. Maybe whe should have a franglais mode where we read plugin and not greffon and so on. I understand that it is not such an important thing. Such a mode would only be usefull for mid-newbies that know what is a plugin, but not a greffon. Total newbies doesn't know what is a plugin. 4. A newbie doesn't know PLF, and as a consequence can't make as many things as with windows with is Mandrake. Lincensing and Patent issues are a mess for newbies that aren't aware of that problem. Here there is no technical solutions, only poltical ones...
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
måndagen den 13 oktober 2003 10.51 skrev Kevin Perros: This message is the result of conversations whith newbies that tried to use Mandrake 9.1/9.2 and after having been conviced and happy with the distribution are re-using Windows more and more for a couple of annoying and easily solvable problems. My point of view about newbie difficulties (which I heard FROM NEWBIES themselves) with Mandrake is that there are roughly four issues: 1. The package 2. The menues 3. The language 4. The license 1. The packages are a good thing but there should be a frontend to the package systems where we talk about apps and plugins. The apps should be organized in a tree that should be understood by the end-user. A typical end-user doesn't know what the graphical environment category could contain, as an exemple. Even desktop or Bureautique or Network should not be seen. More over, only major apps should be shown, with a comment that only says something like Open Office is the leading text writer, spreadsheet tool under Linux, or Abiword is a text writer that is lighter than Open Office... 2. The menues should be nearly empty, with only newbie oriented apps in it. A First level should only contain the labels Internet (netwok doesn't mean much for a user, and less correctness on language is sometime a good thing), Programs, Multimedia, Sound (A newbie doesn't think about sound being multimedia), Close The System (session is har to understand too). Typically a user only needs a multimedia player, a sound player, a desktop suite, a web browser, a mail reader, tools for burning CDs and rip CDs. 3. I focused hear on the french translation but it also applies to others. Every term like réseau environnent graphique bureautique is technical for a newbie and shouldn't be used. Maybe whe should have a franglais mode where we read plugin and not greffon and so on. I understand that it is not such an important thing. Such a mode would only be usefull for mid-newbies that know what is a plugin, but not a greffon. Total newbies doesn't know what is a plugin. 4. A newbie doesn't know PLF, and as a consequence can't make as many things as with windows with is Mandrake. Lincensing and Patent issues are a mess for newbies that aren't aware of that problem. Here there is no technical solutions, only poltical ones... Thanks, very nice to read a mail that has the 'perception of seeing reality', i.e. any system that is to fix a newbie itch, has to use the newbie words of reality. regards guran -- Mandrake Linux Cooker 9.2 kernel-2.4.22.10mdk-1-1mdk VERSION:20030924 21:50 Only in a society that has 'a priori' defined what is the truth can the result from the evolution of life be defined false.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Perros wrote: This message is the result of conversations whith newbies that tried to use Mandrake 9.1/9.2 and after having been conviced and happy with the distribution are re-using Windows more and more for a couple of annoying and easily solvable problems. My point of view about newbie difficulties (which I heard FROM NEWBIES themselves) with Mandrake is that there are roughly four issues: 1. The package 2. The menues 3. The language 4. The license 1. The packages are a good thing but there should be a frontend to the package systems where we talk about apps and plugins. The apps should be organized in a tree that should be understood by the end-user. A typical end-user doesn't know what the graphical environment category could contain, as an exemple. Even desktop or Bureautique or Network should not be seen. More over, only major apps should be shown, with a comment that only says something like Open Office is the leading text writer, spreadsheet tool under Linux, or Abiword is a text writer that is lighter than Open Office... I think it might be better if: - -RPM groups matched the menus - -rpmdrake showed packages sorted by RPM group by default For the rest (ie comment etc), you need to have this fixed by the package maintainer in the spec file, it is not an rpmdrake issue, so file bugs on the packages. 2. The menues should be nearly empty, with only newbie oriented apps in it. A First level should only contain the labels Internet (netwok doesn't mean much for a user, and less correctness on language is sometime a good thing), Programs, Multimedia, Sound (A newbie doesn't think about sound being multimedia), Close The System (session is har to understand too). Typically a user only needs a multimedia player, a sound player, a desktop suite, a web browser, a mail reader, tools for burning CDs and rip CDs. So you haven't shown them the What to do menu? What about advanced users who *do* want to see *everything* including non-newbie apps? Why must I not be able to access gdb from the menu just because some newbie wouldn't know what it is (but probably not have it installed either)? 3. I focused hear on the french translation but it also applies to others. Every term like réseau environnent graphique bureautique is technical for a newbie and shouldn't be used. Maybe whe should have a franglais mode where we read plugin and not greffon and so on. I understand that it is not such an important thing. Such a mode would only be usefull for mid-newbies that know what is a plugin, but not a greffon. Total newbies doesn't know what is a plugin. Could you give a specific example? 4. A newbie doesn't know PLF, and as a consequence can't make as many things as with windows with is Mandrake. Lincensing and Patent issues are a mess for newbies that aren't aware of that problem. Here there is no technical solutions, only poltical ones... In other words, there is nothing that we can do about this, it doesn't only affect Mandrake, nor even only Linux, you need to take this up somewhere else ... - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ioYBrJK6UGDSBKcRAqSlAJ4q5qxQpXFn44MfBr0QUxS1k/WiUgCePSZw 301IOH8ICsTnaAYgRdu4soI= =3J4W -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Monday 13 October 2003 04:51 am, Kevin Perros wrote: 1. The packages are a good thing but there should be a frontend to the package systems where we talk about apps and plugins. The apps should be organized in a tree that should be understood by the end-user. A typical end-user doesn't know what the graphical environment category could contain, as an exemple. Even desktop or Bureautique or Network should not be seen. More over, only major apps should be shown, with a comment that only says something like Open Office is the leading text writer, spreadsheet tool under Linux, or Abiword is a text writer that is lighter than Open Office... 2. The menues should be nearly empty, with only newbie oriented apps in it. A First level should only contain the labels Internet (netwok doesn't mean much for a user, and less correctness on language is sometime a good thing), Programs, Multimedia, Sound (A newbie doesn't think about sound being multimedia), Close The System (session is har to understand too). Typically a user only needs a multimedia player, a sound player, a desktop suite, a web browser, a mail reader, tools for burning CDs and rip CDs. 1 as part of this in newbie mode hide the libs all together and have the most common options included by default 2 i would say put the following on the desktop (maybe as a killable service) 1 icons for the most common tasks (DTP Net and MM) 2 icons for the currently mounted drives (note no icons for unmounted drives or invisible ones) 3 a trio of SUID ROOT scripts to : a shutdown the system b reboot Xwindows only (user switch) c do a full system reboot || note on systems with a Real Live BOFH admin this trio would be yanked || This is just a bit that we can do better than Gates
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 14:24, Eric Fernandez wrote: FACORAT Fabrice wrote: not all people have an internet connection and/or a DSL link Why not in a rpm then : screenshots that could be part of documentation. They don't need to be huge or finely detailed. JPG with a high compression (or PNG ?) are sufficient. PNG is far superior to JPG for software screenshots. JPG is designed to compress photographic-type images, it's very bad at computer graphics. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le ven 10/10/2003 à 10:29, Adam Williamson a écrit : On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 14:24, Eric Fernandez wrote: FACORAT Fabrice wrote: not all people have an internet connection and/or a DSL link Why not in a rpm then : screenshots that could be part of documentation. They don't need to be huge or finely detailed. JPG with a high compression (or PNG ?) are sufficient. PNG is far superior to JPG for software screenshots. JPG is designed to compress photographic-type images, it's very bad at computer graphics. sure, but think about disk space ... --- - Le mariage est une lotterie. - Faux ! A la lotterie, on a une chance de gagner ! - Lucky Luke par Morris
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
--- Greg Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No offense, but there already is a distribution (several) like this, why do we want to create another one? They are not free (as in freedom) Ok, as I've said in the original mail, it's a community decision and if any of my ideas is accepted, I'll be happy. It seems that at least some will be. I don't want it to be like Windows where I have to spend an hour or four on configuration and software/driver installation after the OS install is done. Funny, I spend the same amount of time tweaking Linux systems... Perhaps autoinstall can solve both our problems? BTW, I like your interface, I think the layout is quite nice, but I don't think qt is going to be an option since all the mdk tools are built on gtk. Yeah, I thought about that. Is there a tool for gtk like Qt Designer? __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
I just hope that others don't find this little discussion of ours boring. if you do, please yell :) --- illogic-al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a typical windows user. mdklinux is not windows and users installing linux know that (at least most of them do). It's the argument of never change anything, make people learn our ways instead. Not never change anything, never change anything that doesn't need to be changed. It's the argument of if it ain't broke, don't fix it I just don't think that applies to interfaces. I.e. where I work it's a rule to change the webpage design every ~18 months. It doesn't matter that the old one was perfectly fine. Change is good, says marketing people. No. and i'm serious here. Ok, you have a right to an opinion. So basically, why don't we just scrap the group selection screen and just install the whole 3 CDs? ok that's sarcasm, i'm guessing It is... English is not my native lang :( This goes to prove that the present way is meaningless. Not to you because you're used to either install everything or go directly to detailed package selection. You're not a newbie. but i used to be a newbie, and newbillogic-al loved those menus because it meant he didn't have to spend time sifting through packages that he had no clue what they did. And imagine if the packages were presented in a familiar way? In such a way that you could have easily had a clue? (eh this is about as far as my knowledge of english goes ;) No. I'll use all of these, but not all office packages (just one), not all games (just a few), not all net apps (just one browser, one e-mail client)... blahblah. You get my point. but did you know which one you wanted to use when you started w/ linux. I didn't so two choices were great. I tried koffice and it had a nice interface, but office compatibility sucked. So then i went to oo.o but it was slow as hell and ugly but it had great office compatibility. eventually i chose function over form. but if the two weren't installed i would think oh, there's only one word processor and it doesn't work with word. this sucks i'll have to boot into windows to use word now. I had konq and mozilla, etc. having more than one choice allowed me to know what i wanted. once i got comfortable and reinstalled then i knew what i wanted and could pick and choose as i please. Agreed! So why don't we present them to users as what they are? Why dont we offer two checkboxes that say OpenOffice.org and KOffice, rather then just Office tools and then, upon clicking on details, hundreds of packages with cryptic names which are rather unusable by themselves? if you select gnome package then eog comes w/ it. as for the others there isn't one thing in that list that i would typically use. And that's probably why they're not shown. the typical user goes looking for chromium the game not the setup utility, and etc You're right about eog, but I still disagree. That's just personal preference. i don't think fonts should be installed by fontdrake. the rpm installation works just fine, galaxy should not be installed by a theme manager, but maybe a theme group could be created w/ gnome, flux and kde themes. as for ami and chinput, why should they be installed by keyboarddrake, is there even such a thing? the same goes w/ fonts. These are all rpms, rpmdrakes so purpose in life is to install those things and it should remain it and only it's purpose. Which reiterates my point. Linux is notorious for showing the system inside details in your face. Would you fly an airplane that has wires hanging all over the place, engines wide open, no compartment between pilots room and the rest etc? Well you might find it cool if you were an airplane mechanic. Most people are afraid of computers just as they are afraid of flying. That's why they need to feel perfectly safe and using a well rounded product. So Mandrake was the first that successfully hidden some details while maintaining functionality. Why not push it further? Package means nothing to a person that doesn't want to learn how their computer works, but program is fine. Note that I'm not requesting that RpmDrake should be killed. It should remain as an admins' tool. Also you still have urpmi and plain old rpm if you like. Making a separate, keyboard and theme app only introduces more bug reports unduly. They already exist. Keyboarddrake is used for selecting international keyboard layouts, you probably don't use it if you're from US or UK. Theme manager is a part of Mandrake first time wizard. No but even those popups at install time when I initially install linux gives a bad impression and i don't want to deal with them that soon. there are enough pop-ups in the install system (liek the ones for dependencies). And lets not forget that they introduce potential bugs because if your popup window suddenly dies you can't go
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Vedran Ljubovic wrote: --- Greg Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, I like your interface, I think the layout is quite nice, but I don't think qt is going to be an option since all the mdk tools are built on gtk. Yeah, I thought about that. Is there a tool for gtk like Qt Designer? Not AFAIK, but perl-Qt is finally in contribs now, with a nice new pqt-designer. But that (Qt) is probably not on the cards - it would require a lot of rework. Jaco
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 22:58, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : A request here: the screenshots should be in the local language, if possible. To newbies, it is important that the interfaces are in their native language. And this is furthermore one of Mandrakes strengths, Mandrake is more translated into native languages than MS windows. why not. But this need to be done by users/contributor/clubers/... and so you may have apps_screenshot-fr and apps_screenshot ( en ) and so on. The right is installed depending on your language. Nah, I think installing programs based on the menu is much more user friendly. I note that right-clicking in the menu is currently not used, and thus free for perusal for new functionality. No please. because : 1°/ the menu will be cluttered at first, You'd rather install automatically a selection of package you think that will be usefull for the user 2°/ a user expect that applications in his menu are installed ! If he clicks and nothing happen, his first though will be : It's broken. Right click and then install ? see point 1 --- Les hommes se contentent de tuer le temps en attendant que le temps les tue. Simone De Beauvoir
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 22:58, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : A request here: the screenshots should be in the local language, if possible. To newbies, it is important that the interfaces are in their native language. And this is furthermore one of Mandrakes strengths, Mandrake is more translated into native languages than MS windows. why not. But this need to be done by users/contributor/clubers/... and so you may have apps_screenshot-fr and apps_screenshot ( en ) and so on. The right is installed depending on your language. Nah, I think installing programs based on the menu is much more user friendly. I note that right-clicking in the menu is currently not used, and thus free for perusal for new functionality. No please. because : 1°/ the menu will be cluttered at first, You'd rather install automatically a selection of package you think that will be usefull for the user 2°/ a user expect that applications in his menu are installed ! If he clicks and nothing happen, his first though will be : It's broken. Right click and then install ? see point 1 3°/ (hi hi) it could be in a sub menu install more software, which uses the menu structure of the main menu, has nice icons, and a good description svetljo -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gruß, GMX FotoService Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! And what about the time needed to do all the screenshots, list plugins.. Well obviously screenshots should be made while packaging. Apart from distributing the workload, this has another benefit of requiring packagers to test their packages. And also, screenshot would be present only for programs (e.g. packages that are listed, which usually are rather large anyway). Noone said that screenshots need to be up-to-date! I think most users would be satisfied with something a few versions back. Finally, those screenshot can be low res, as suggested by Olivier. So I could give up on the Click here to enlarge part :) then screenshots can be 8-bit PNGs constrained to 200x150 pixels. That shouldn't be larger than 20-30 kB. what's more, this bring the coherency problem where packages would come with screenshots made into different desktop, with different themes, with different fonts, ...
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Yeah, I thought about that. Is there a tool for gtk like Qt Designer? yes, try glade2 :) urpmi glade2 and then use glade-2 -- Olivier Blin
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le jeu 09/10/2003 à 12:15, Thierry Vignaud a écrit : what's more, this bring the coherency problem where packages would come with screenshots made into different desktop, with different themes, with different fonts, ... this is not a problem. What you want to see is what the app look like. Now concerning colors/fonts, this is subsidiary. Of course you can always set polices ( take screenshot off the apps on default desktop install and configuration and take only app window screenshot ) I remember that when I want to test an app under windows I was first trying to see a screenshot and the GUI could make me do my choice. That's why on most windows site you have screenshots ( cf telecharger.com or clubic.com ). When I hear about a new apps on linux, my reflexe is going to the site and look at the screenshot and depending on the screenshot ( and of courses of the features ) I can decide if the app is interesting for a desktop usage. --- La science des occasions et des temps est la principale partie des affaires. -- Bossuet
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thierry Vignaud wrote: Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! And what about the time needed to do all the screenshots, list plugins.. Well obviously screenshots should be made while packaging. Apart from distributing the workload, this has another benefit of requiring packagers to test their packages. And also, screenshot would be present only for programs (e.g. packages that are listed, which usually are rather large anyway). Noone said that screenshots need to be up-to-date! I think most users would be satisfied with something a few versions back. Finally, those screenshot can be low res, as suggested by Olivier. So I could give up on the Click here to enlarge part :) then screenshots can be 8-bit PNGs constrained to 200x150 pixels. That shouldn't be larger than 20-30 kB. what's more, this bring the coherency problem where packages would come with screenshots made into different desktop, with different themes, with different fonts, ... Make the policy that all application screenshots should: - -be of only the application (no desktop) - -not have window decorations - -use MandrakeGalaxy widget theme/style if applicable I tried one just to see what it would look like: http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/imgseek2.png Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/hVYUrJK6UGDSBKcRAl3yAJwNjVezuTBfPHzB15kk+K3pbn9LPQCfUgcs VDNRuJmJsZMQQi+1segYcno= =8PzN -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Le jeu 09/10/2003 à 12:15, Thierry Vignaud a écrit : what's more, this bring the coherency problem where packages would come with screenshots made into different desktop, with different themes, with different fonts, ... this is not a problem. What you want to see is what the app look like. Now concerning colors/fonts, this is subsidiary. Of course you can always set polices ( take screenshot off the apps on default desktop install and configuration and take only app window screenshot ) I remember that when I want to test an app under windows I was first trying to see a screenshot and the GUI could make me do my choice. That's why on most windows site you have screenshots ( cf telecharger.com or clubic.com ). When I hear about a new apps on linux, my reflexe is going to the site and look at the screenshot and depending on the screenshot ( and of courses of the features ) I can decide if the app is interesting for a desktop usage. /me does 'urpmq -i name' ... Now, if urpmq could display a screenshot ;-) - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/hVZprJK6UGDSBKcRAi37AKCoGX7ZpOMluBwQw79o8R4cdfylogCgxi9P 8de50qH3sbgH/0jV/Qfw6LE= =yAoL -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BTW, I like your interface, I think the layout is quite nice, but I don't think qt is going to be an option since all the mdk tools are built on gtk. Yeah, I thought about that. Is there a tool for gtk like Qt Designer? glade2 and glade-perl (plus some manul changes due to new perl-Gtk2)
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: /me does 'urpmq -i name' ... Now, if urpmq could display a screenshot ;-) Such screenshot should be available in the package header at least, but it could be a bit too large, anyway an icon is maybe available to visualize instead of screenshot, that's not the best but you will see a picture furthermore problably nice but small :-) François.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Thursday 09 October 2003 08:35, Buchan Milne wrote: Make the policy that all application screenshots should: - -be of only the application (no desktop) - -not have window decorations - -use MandrakeGalaxy widget theme/style if applicable http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/imgseek2.png I think the lack of window decorations might be a little confusing to the kind of users who'd benefit most from screenshots. Maybe require the use of the MandrakeGalaxy window decorations too? I probably shouldn't argue for this because I don't have a dedicated system to make RPM's and damned if I'm going to use the 1998-looking MandrakeGalaxy just so I can make screenshots (I'm a Keramik guy all the way, sorry) but if it's going to be made into a policy, might as well do it in such a way to benefit people the most... I also think maintaining them separately in a database online somewhere seems like a better idea, but that's only because I thought it up. Rob
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob wrote: On Thursday 09 October 2003 08:35, Buchan Milne wrote: Make the policy that all application screenshots should: - -be of only the application (no desktop) - -not have window decorations - -use MandrakeGalaxy widget theme/style if applicable http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/imgseek2.png I think the lack of window decorations might be a little confusing to the kind of users who'd benefit most from screenshots. Maybe require the use of the MandrakeGalaxy window decorations too? But that requires the user to use one of the window managers that has MandrakeGalaxy decorations ... Of course, it would be a bit less effort (since none of the mainstream screenshot tools has an option to not use the decorations) to include them. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/hXOvrJK6UGDSBKcRAhmPAJ4oXx2DKHUt8hm+C6Q6traqGkh+/QCeMZlL T4s9j02rq9z1fMFHbP2tsI4= =ht// -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 12:58:46PM +0200, Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote: Le mer 08/10/2003 à 22:58, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : A request here: the screenshots should be in the local language, if possible. To newbies, it is important that the interfaces are in their native language. And this is furthermore one of Mandrakes strengths, Mandrake is more translated into native languages than MS windows. why not. But this need to be done by users/contributor/clubers/... and so you may have apps_screenshot-fr and apps_screenshot ( en ) and so on. The right is installed depending on your language. Oh, well, however, I think localized menus could be generated also by mandrakesoft, maybe even automatically. It is the same screenshots that need to be generated, and im many cases it is just the front GUI that you would need to show. That is pretty easy to generate automatically for eg all items that are installable on the menu, I think. Nah, I think installing programs based on the menu is much more user friendly. I note that right-clicking in the menu is currently not used, and thus free for perusal for new functionality. No please. because : 1°/ the menu will be cluttered at first, You'd rather install automatically a selection of package you think that will be usefull for the user I did not want to clutter the menu. There should be just a few choices available in each menu, that is the recommended Mandrake choices for the specific menu. The additions could then be done by right-clicking the menu category, such as office applications - here a number of applications could then be shown, for installation. Furthermore to help in diminishing clutterization of the menus, one could restrict the menu to some shown items that have been used, and then a more... item to list more installed programs. (This idea is directly stolen from some MS Windows menu.) 2°/ a user expect that applications in his menu are installed ! If he clicks and nothing happen, his first though will be : It's broken. Right click and then install ? see point 1 yes, I agree that this would not be good, but this was not what I intended. 3°/ (hi hi) it could be in a sub menu install more software, which uses the menu structure of the main menu, has nice icons, and a good description That is another way to do it. Best regards keld
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think the lack of window decorations might be a little confusing to the kind of users who'd benefit most from screenshots. Maybe require the use of the MandrakeGalaxy window decorations too? But that requires the user to use one of the window managers that has MandrakeGalaxy decorations ... which of course would more consistent with the fact most end users use kde or gnome with the default theme (anti-troll warning: cooker people are by no way real end users as those one can found in real shops :-)). Of course, it would be a bit less effort (since none of the mainstream screenshot tools has an option to not use the decorations) to include them. gimp do has it. xwd too (xwd -nobdrs vs xwd) i guess others have it too.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thierry Vignaud wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think the lack of window decorations might be a little confusing to the kind of users who'd benefit most from screenshots. Maybe require the use of the MandrakeGalaxy window decorations too? But that requires the user to use one of the window managers that has MandrakeGalaxy decorations ... which of course would more consistent with the fact most end users use kde or gnome with the default theme (anti-troll warning: cooker people are by no way real end users as those one can found in real shops :-)). But people taking screenshots might be non-real end users (ie cookers ;-)). Of course, it would be a bit less effort (since none of the mainstream screenshot tools has an option to not use the decorations) to include them. gimp do has it. I thought it did, but checked in 1.3.x, which does not (I looked now in 1.2.x and it does, but who wants GTK1 stuff when GTK2 stuff is available ;-). Maybe I should file a bug on gimp1.3 ;-). Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/hY3HrJK6UGDSBKcRAlGAAKCRu7SgPIjOhA0ur4kgUDwSj05d7gCfSHHc 81vMwDFHYQ+2BjGy/gmTpmI= =FCeP -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course, it would be a bit less effort (since none of the mainstream screenshot tools has an option to not use the decorations) to include them. gimp do has it. I thought it did, but checked in 1.3.x, which does not (I looked now in 1.2.x and it does, but who wants GTK1 stuff when GTK2 stuff is available ;-). Maybe I should file a bug on gimp1.3 ;-). afaic, they switch from using xwd (!!!) to direct x11 access a few weeks ago :-(
[Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Hello list, I wasn't much involved in Mandrake development until now (except translation), but I hope that that will change. First I must say that, as a long time Mandrake user, I very much appreciate the fine work done by Mandrake developers, especially from a technical point of view. However, I was slightly disappointed to find that the great modifications in RpmDrake in 9.2 RCs were mostly under-the-hub stuff. I'm sure that technical improvements were significant, but the interface is very much the same. Personally, I expected something more radical. I expected that the very concept of packages would finally be abandoned. In this long(ish) mail I'll try to explain what I mean. I hope that someone (preferably RpmDrake developers ;) will actually read this mail and perhaps even make some comments, suggestions and - who knows, one can only hope :) - maybe they will accept some of my ideas and implement them in the next version! On numerous occasions I've heard users complaining how Linux comes on 3 CDs while Windows XP is only one. This shows that they don't realize that these 3 CDs carry hundreds of exciting software titles. The reason for this oversight is, obviously, that program installation tools in present Linux distributions are intimidating and un-friendly. I believe that program installation is the central - and simultaneously, the least user-friendly part of every Linux distribution. When talking to many newbie (Mandrake) Linux users, here are the most frequent complaints they have: - Packages have cryptic names And I don't complain about names such as Konqueror or XMMS - those are fine names for programs. The problem is that a typical package manager will show something like kde-konqueror-3.1.3-1mdk.i586.rpm That's just scary. A typical Windows user would never install anything having a name like that. - Descriptions are too technical You don't have to look too far to find examples of this. Take ami-1.0.11-5mdk. When you replace all the words that a typical user without previous Linux experience wouldn't understand with dots, you get Korean ... using ..., support ... mode and ... mode. ... mode ... is available from the separate packages. wtf??? Writing better descriptions is not too hard, I for one volunteer to do that, but even with the finest worded descriptions users can still be at a loss about what exactly does each package do. That's why most beginner-oriented shareware CDs feature screenshots of programs they carry. - When I install some package, nothing happens The problem here is that, when installing a certain package, user can perceive absolutely no change in her system, so she is left with a scary feeling that something has happened. No desktop icons. No menu entries. No new directories. Nothing. Especially, the thing user expects is some new entries in her start menu. Some reasons why this doesn't happen include: * the K menu sometimes doesn't update immediately * some programs don't have menu entries (a packaging bug!) * some programs are for console only * some packages actually aren't programs but libraries or system components Other possible reasons for the feeling of confusion are: * Linux file system will throw files around, with no distinct package directory * services aren't shown in the systray, or anywhere else, apart for some obscure program (such as DrakServices) - Dependencies Not much to be said here :) - Program installation pops-up during OS install Most users aren't used to install programs together with the system itself. Presenting them with a long list of cryptic package names is one of the scariest parts of a Linux install. A typical user expects to install a plain OS, and then to download and (un)install programs endlessly until she finds something interesting and suitable. I should know that, I've fixed dozens of Windows computers completely broken by senseless installing of everything found on the Internet. But the most important issue is: - I don't want to install packages, I want to install programs The very word package means nothing to the unexperienced user coming from a different OS. Therefore, they feel package managers as something alien, an inappropriate tool for what they need. How do distros deal with these issues? Dependency hell is solved nicely in Mandrake. However, other issues remain. A typical solution, accepted by Mandrake, RedHat, SuSE and many other distributions are package groups. The concept of package groups is used at OS installation and later the package installer is based around it. I find this solution to be a lousy one and merely adding to the problem. Here are some of the reasons why: - It presumes that users are too stupid to understand the concept of a software program Never mind the fact that the No. 1 rule of usability is never treat users like idiots; there are indeed some users that don't care about programs but rather about tasks to achieve. *Well, those users have no business
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
I agree with a lot of your comments, and the screenshot is very nice. Since softwares are more and more fragmented into smaller rpms (which is a good thing though), a meta-packaging should be introduced indeed in the next release. That would ease installation, even for urpmi users. But we already talked about this, I remember. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Hi Vedran I hope your ideas get some attention, most of them would improve usability! Maybe, when installing a program, give the option to read the readme/documentation and/or to run it after installing. Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Eric Fernandez [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with a lot of your comments, and the screenshot is very nice. Since softwares are more and more fragmented into smaller rpms (which is a good thing though), a meta-packaging should be introduced indeed in the next release. That would ease installation, even for urpmi users. But we already talked about this, I remember. For urpmi, it was already an idea to indroduce such behaviour, I think it is time now to do it. François.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
onsdagen den 8 oktober 8 Oct 2003 07:32 skrevVedran Ljubovic: Personally, I expected something more radical. I expected that the very concept of packages would finally be abandoned. In this long(ish) mail I'll try to explain what I mean. ... Very nice indeed. If someone wants tp read another opinion on how the 'new user' differs from 'a geek guy' you may want to read: Democratizing software: Open source, the hacker ethic, and beyond by Brent K. Jesiek at: http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue8_10/jesiek/ which does a very good examination of the usabillity of Linux for a newbie. regards guran -- Mandrake Linux Cooker 9.2 kernel-2.4.22.10mdk-1-1mdk VERSION:20030924 21:50 Only in a society that has 'a priori' defined what is the truth can the result from the evolution of life be defined false.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: of view. However, I was slightly disappointed to find that the great modifications in RpmDrake in 9.2 RCs Which great modifications? I mean, you talk about it like some great modifications were advertized somehow? were mostly under-the-hub stuff. I'm sure that technical improvements were significant, but the interface is very much the same. Yes. It has been already much much criticized (discussed?) ya know. I tried to answer the points (even if I'm not the only one who decided for them) each time (I have to admit that I ended up a little tired to answer same thing everytime ;p). Personally, I expected something more radical. I expected that the very concept of packages would finally be abandoned. In this long(ish) mail I'll try to explain what I mean. I hope that someone (preferably RpmDrake developers ;) will actually read this mail and perhaps even make some comments, I'm the so-called rpmdrake developer. I've read your mail. Will try to shortly answer. [...] On numerous occasions I've heard users complaining how Linux comes on 3 CDs while Windows XP is only one. This shows that they don't realize that these 3 CDs carry hundreds of exciting software titles. The reason for this oversight is, obviously, that program installation tools in present Linux distributions are intimidating and un-friendly. I That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). If newbies don't use Packages Installation, I think it has more to do with the fact that a computer is frightening in general - they won't use other tools as well, outside of mozilla and evolution and openoffice, until a trusted computer literate friend shows them another one - probably not an administration one. And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. [...] My proposition Based on the above observations, I believe that the following should be done: - There should be a new application named Add/Remove Programs I fail to see how merging two functionalities would end up with an easier tool, whereas this suggestion keeps poping up. I think people design interfaces they'd like to use, and since they are not newbies, we end up with that suggestion. In no way am I suggesting that RpmDrake is to be replaced. It should be kept as a tool for professionals and sysadmins that want to have a complete control of their system. However, newbie users should be directed to this new Add/Remove Programs tool. - This application should feature _programs_, not _packages_ This is not just about terminology. What I mean is: list only packages that are programs and hide everything else. A definition of a program is a package that has one or more menu entries. E.g. if it's not in the menus, it's not a program and therefore shouldn't be listed. So what do we do with those other packages, you ask? I feel that is a good proposal. I don't know the best way to integrate this suggestion in rpmdrake though. Maybe another sorting method. Maybe the default one (although the default one is already mandrake choices e.g. a short selected list of packages that are sensible to newbies). - system components - should be dealt with by corresponding system configuration tools (i.e. X servers should be (un)installed with XFDrake, CUPS and PDQ with PrinterDrake, SANE with ScannerDrake etc.) Already the case.. - plug-ins and add-ons - they should be installed through a pop-up window that appears when installing the corresponding program. For example: presently we have packages named licq, licq-kde, licq-console and licq-rms. Add/Remove Programs should list just Licq. However, clicking on Licq should pop-up a dialog with checkboxes labeled KDE support, Console support and Remote management service. Dependencies for these packages (such as at least one of... and only one of...) should be embedded in the GUI, using tricks such as disabled checkboxes, one checkbox activating when the other one is (un)checked, radio buttons etc. Could be nice but I don't know how we can say Kde Support etc: we can use the Summary: tag of the rpm's, which is not that good, even if it's acceptable. Also, it adds complexity by poping a question that I don't regard as central for newbies :/. - Programs should be listed under their real names Short version: just use the Summary tag instead of name+version I'm not sure it's very good. Many Summary: tags are short explanations rather than real names (Tetris like game for crack-attack for example), I don't know if that's gonna be nice once sorted in a list. - These programs should be categorized
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 10:16, Guillaume Cottenceau a écrit : Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. Good for you ... - There should be a new application named Add/Remove Programs I fail to see how merging two functionalities would end up with an easier tool, whereas this suggestion keeps poping up. I think people design interfaces they'd like to use, and since they are not newbies, we end up with that suggestion. Maybe but this remind them ... windows add/remove component. the problem is that when you want to se if a package is installed or available, first you try to search in Remove Package to see if the prog/lib is installed. Then you go to install Package to se if the prog/lib is available. In no way am I suggesting that RpmDrake is to be replaced. It should be kept as a tool for professionals and sysadmins that want to have a complete control of their system. However, newbie users should be directed to this new Add/Remove Programs tool. - This application should feature _programs_, not _packages_ This is not just about terminology. What I mean is: list only packages that are programs and hide everything else. A definition of a program is a package that has one or more menu entries. E.g. if it's not in the menus, it's not a program and therefore shouldn't be listed. So what do we do with those other packages, you ask? I feel that is a good proposal. I don't know the best way to integrate this suggestion in rpmdrake though. Maybe another sorting method. Maybe the default one (although the default one is already mandrake choices e.g. a short selected list of packages that are sensible to newbies). Sorting like menu is a good start ... as people tend to install package and don't know where to launch the prog and then you haveto give them the path to the menu. But standard mdk menu need to be improved. The Applications part is not ... obvious. It should be Others, don't know but not Applications ... - system components - should be dealt with by corresponding system configuration tools (i.e. X servers should be (un)installed with XFDrake, CUPS and PDQ with PrinterDrake, SANE with ScannerDrake etc.) Already the case.. Not for uninstallation ... Current rpmdrake architecture can't make use of different media for a single package-version-release :/. This should be show explicitly. ot with just Source : ... Maybe a different color, maybe a warning when installaing from others sources ( are you surer you want to install from ? Yes No ) --- L'amour et la haine sont des parents consanguins. Proverbe Allemand
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! And what about the time needed to do all the screenshots, list plugins.. I agree with this, however, screenshots could be limited to the Mandrake choice packages, and instead of being included in the distribution, been linked to a page on Mandrakeclub, as I suggested before. Why not simply using a HTML link to such screenshot ? A screenshot is really handful, it shows in one instant the layout of a software, and gives a rough idea of its possibilities. Olivier Thauvin's easy-urpmi should be integrated in the media configuration tool, when I have time :/ however I'm not very much in favor of pushing newbies to use external packages (at the time cooker was easily addable graphically, so many people broke their system by trying to install programs ugrades) Contrib should be easily added by newbies, it is better to support these unofficial repositories instead of seeing newbies trying to install Red Hat packages from rpmfind. Also, there is a strong demand for DVD playing, thus PLF should be easily added. We know it cannot be done out-of-the box, but there is no need to name it (or Gotz suggested that a disclamer would be enough, which makes sense) For this reason that would be great to merge the media management with urpmi.setup, that can retrieve mirror lists. Anyway, this is more an educational issue on the way to use rpmdrake and manage the media than a software design problem. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 11:01, Eric Fernandez a écrit : Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! And what about the time needed to do all the screenshots, list plugins.. I agree with this, however, screenshots could be limited to the Mandrake choice packages, and instead of being included in the distribution, been linked to a page on Mandrakeclub, as I suggested before. Why not simply using a HTML link to such screenshot ? A screenshot is really handful, it shows in one instant the layout of a software, and gives a rough idea of its possibilities. not all people have an internet connection and/or a DSL link --- Le silence eternel de ces espaces infinis m'effraie. -- Pascal, Pensees
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On 8 Oct 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). If newbies don't use Packages Installation, I think it has more to do with the fact that a computer is frightening in general - they won't use other tools as well, outside of mozilla and evolution and openoffice, until a trusted computer literate friend shows them another one - probably not an administration one. And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. rpmdrake2 is wonderful. But, it still keeps surprising me how people think. The last few days I've been helping a person trying to get mandrake running. He's not so computer illiterate, but only knows windows and dos. Somehow, he tried to install all kinds of programs from source or binary tarbal, without even trying to use rpmdrake (ofcourse he might have not found the programs he was looking for because only 1 CD was added as media, since he only downloaded the first CD). So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? I fail to see how merging two functionalities would end up with an easier tool, whereas this suggestion keeps poping up. I think people design interfaces they'd like to use, and since they are not newbies, we end up with that suggestion. I see a long thread coming again:) I do want to comment two things: -Real newbies are few, people know the add/remove stuff of windows -I do see the logical distinction, but I also see disadvantages of current approach. Perhaps a compromis is possible, if we all think very hard:) - This application should feature _programs_, not _packages_ This is not just about terminology. What I mean is: list only packages that are programs and hide everything else. A definition of a program is a package that has one or more menu entries. E.g. if it's not in the menus, it's not a program and therefore shouldn't be listed. So what do we do with those other packages, you ask? I feel that is a good proposal. I don't know the best way to integrate this suggestion in rpmdrake though. Maybe another sorting method. Maybe the default one (although the default one is already mandrake choices e.g. a short selected list of packages that are sensible to newbies). i like it as well. Something like we have in the menu? I want to play video, listen music, type a letter? I don't know. Between 7.0 and 7.1 times we decided for the Menu and Rpm-Groups new architecture, which is a bit different, I don't know why because I didn't decided for them. Warly maybe you remember? o it would be so nice to have the exact same groups in both. I sometimes have to check the files list of the rpms to find the executable I need (or go through the whole menu). We decided for Media on this list around 3 months ago, this was a sort of community decision I'd say, so I think it's counter-productive to change them all again, except of course if everyone on this list would strongly agree with channels instead of media (which I personally don't, but I may be the only one ;p). I don't like channels either, actually, i liked source,but I can live with media. - Add more sources/media/channels automatically I know that Mandrake will never implement this, but what the hell :) one can dream. The biggest problem with RpmDrake is that sources are still too complicated to configure. Therefore I Olivier Thauvin's easy-urpmi should be integrated in the media configuration tool, when I have time :/ however I'm not very much in favor of pushing newbies to use external packages (at the time cooker was easily addable graphically, so many people broke their system by trying to install programs ugrades). It would be really wonderful if it could be integrated. But make it difficult to add non-compatible sources (other arches, version, etc). d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
I agree with this, however, screenshots could be limited to the Mandrake choice packages, and instead of being included in the distribution, been linked to a page on Mandrakeclub, as I suggested before. Why not simply using a HTML link to such screenshot ? A screenshot is really handful, it shows in one instant the layout of a software, and gives a rough idea of its possibilities. To include screenshots or pictures from http sources in packages, it would be nice to add a new Picture tag in rpms. For example, the OpenOffice.org package could have the following tags : Picture0: http://www.openoffice.org/product/pix/box.png Picture1: http://www.openoffice.org/product/pix/writer-big.png Picture2: http://www.openoffice.org/product/pix/calc-big.png The pictures could be saved in a cache directory, what do you think of /var/cache/urpmi/pictures/package group/package name/picture name ? For people who do not have a broadband connection, a checkbox would allow them not to download screenshots. For them, a package with thumbnails of screenshots in cache could be created just before final release. Such a package would perhaps be too huge. Pictures could be shared between packages, for example for xine and all its libs or devel packages. -- Olivier Blin
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Oct 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). If newbies don't use Packages Installation, I think it has more to do with the fact that a computer is frightening in general - they won't use other tools as well, outside of mozilla and evolution and openoffice, until a trusted computer literate friend shows them another one - probably not an administration one. And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. rpmdrake2 is wonderful. But, it still keeps surprising me how people think. The last few days I've been helping a person trying to get mandrake running. He's not so computer illiterate, but only knows windows and dos. Somehow, he tried to install all kinds of programs from source or binary tarbal, without even trying to use rpmdrake (ofcourse he might have not found the programs he was looking for because only 1 CD was added as media, since he only downloaded the first CD). But, which media are available are of no consequence, if the user didn't even try rpmdrake ... The problem is that Windows users are used to getting free software (really Shareware or freeware) by downloading from obscure sites on the internet. Maybe the first thing that a new user should see is Mandrake Linux most likely includes more than 95% of the software you will ever need to use, but not all of it is installed by default. Use the Mandrake Control Center (or rpmdrake) to install more software that is included in the distribution., or something to that effect. So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? How? Telepathy? I fail to see how merging two functionalities would end up with an easier tool, whereas this suggestion keeps poping up. I think people design interfaces they'd like to use, and since they are not newbies, we end up with that suggestion. I see a long thread coming again:) I do want to comment two things: -Real newbies are few, people know the add/remove stuff of windows -I do see the logical distinction, but I also see disadvantages of current approach. Perhaps a compromis is possible, if we all think very hard:) - This application should feature _programs_, not _packages_ This is not just about terminology. What I mean is: list only packages that are programs and hide everything else. A definition of a program is a package that has one or more menu entries. E.g. if it's not in the menus, it's not a program and therefore shouldn't be listed. So what do we do with those other packages, you ask? I feel that is a good proposal. I don't know the best way to integrate this suggestion in rpmdrake though. Maybe another sorting method. Maybe the default one (although the default one is already mandrake choices e.g. a short selected list of packages that are sensible to newbies). i like it as well. Something like we have in the menu? I want to play video, listen music, type a letter? Most things can be found quite easily by searching the summary (I have tried a few searches), however some summaries could be better ... but then these are problems with the packages, not rpmdrake. I don't know. Between 7.0 and 7.1 times we decided for the Menu and Rpm-Groups new architecture, which is a bit different, I don't know why because I didn't decided for them. Warly maybe you remember? o it would be so nice to have the exact same groups in both. I sometimes have to check the files list of the rpms to find the executable I need (or go through the whole menu). And it would make packaging easier, instead of having to look the groups up in the mandrake rpm howto if I am not sure, I could look in the menu ... This could also be used by rpmdrake to tell the user where to find the menu entry ... Another thing that might be useful is to be able to launch the program in the menu entry for a package that is installed, but the problem is, who do you run it as? It's fine when using rpmdrake in user mode, but when running as root it could be a problem ... We decided for Media on this list around 3 months ago, this was a sort of community decision I'd say, so I think it's counter-productive to change them all again, except of course if everyone on this list would strongly agree with channels instead of media (which I personally don't, but I may be the only one ;p). I don't like channels either, actually, i liked source,but I can live with media. Channel is confusing IMHO. Media is more descriptive, the problem people have with it is due to the common uses of it (ie Installation media often refers to
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 01:55:05PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? How? Telepathy? Of course ;-) But until then, why not have a textfile or a *db* file with the following: package-version.rpm, Summary, description ... for each source (main, contrib, (plf), (jpackage)) a separate file, possible to reconfigure afterwards, or even using update (hmm, sounds almost like a hdlist file). When you want to install a package for which no medium has been added yet, it will at once be clear to the user that something needs to be done, which is possible to do and the software is actually there. Channel is confusing IMHO. Media is more descriptive, the problem people have with it is due to the common uses of it (ie Installation media often refers to CD etc so people don't think further), compared to the full meaning (newspaper is a medium, internet is a medium etc etc). now only to get the confusing singular/plural form of medium/media sorted out ;-) Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Oct 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. rpmdrake2 is wonderful. But, it still keeps surprising me how people think. The last few days I've been helping a person trying to get mandrake running. He's not so computer illiterate, but only knows windows and dos. Somehow, he tried to install all kinds of programs from source or binary tarbal, without even trying to use rpmdrake (ofcourse he might have not found the programs he was looking for because only 1 CD was added as media, since he only downloaded the first CD). So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? It does provide the list. The first CD should contain all the hdlists for the 3 CDs. [snipped] -- John Allen, Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MandrakeClub Silver Member.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 11:39, Olivier Blin a écrit : I agree with this, however, screenshots could be limited to the Mandrake choice packages, and instead of being included in the distribution, been linked to a page on Mandrakeclub, as I suggested before. Why not simply using a HTML link to such screenshot ? A screenshot is really handful, it shows in one instant the layout of a software, and gives a rough idea of its possibilities. To include screenshots or pictures from http sources in packages, it would be nice to add a new Picture tag in rpms. For example, the OpenOffice.org package could have the following tags : Picture0: http://www.openoffice.org/product/pix/box.png Picture1: http://www.openoffice.org/product/pix/writer-big.png Picture2: http://www.openoffice.org/product/pix/calc-big.png The pictures could be saved in a cache directory, what do you think of /var/cache/urpmi/pictures/package group/package name/picture name ? I will have include screenshot in a special rpm package as screenshot will be provided only for package mdksoft think it could be useful to provide screenshot. --- Il y a beaucoup de choses que nous aimerions jeter si nous n'avions pas peur que d'autres les ramassent. Oscar Wilde
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Simon Oosthoek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? How? Telepathy? Of course ;-) But until then, why not have a textfile or a *db* file with the following: package-version.rpm, Summary, description this is called hdlists ... for each source (main, contrib, (plf), (jpackage)) a separate file, possible to reconfigure afterwards, or even using update (hmm, sounds almost like a hdlist file).
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
FACORAT Fabrice wrote: not all people have an internet connection and/or a DSL link Why not in a rpm then : screenshots that could be part of documentation. They don't need to be huge or finely detailed. JPG with a high compression (or PNG ?) are sufficient. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 13:24, Eric Fernandez a écrit : FACORAT Fabrice wrote: not all people have an internet connection and/or a DSL link Why not in a rpm then : screenshots that could be part of documentation. They don't need to be huge or finely detailed. JPG with a high compression (or PNG ?) are sufficient. We had the same idea ... lol --- Je me sers d'animaux pour instruire les hommes -- Jean de La Fontaine
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long] - install from menu
Hi! I think this is an interesting thread. A few ideas: 1. make install of progrms directly available from the menu. With a right click one can administer menu items. ine thing is to under eg word processing, you can add a menu item like koffice, if it is not there, and adding the menu item will also install the program. This would be easily understandable for a newbie. It is directly related to the main tool that the newbie (and others) use, namely the menu. Administer menu items could also let the menu item go away - and that would then uninstall the packages too. 2. if we install big chunks of software, then the distributions should be availiable in big chunks, eg in some kind of .img format, which is a collection of packages. This could speed up installation tremendiously. Often it takes say 45 minutes to install the main selection of packages. This should be doable in 2 mins, if we just install a standard .iso like image (maybe an ext3 fs in some quickly uncompressable format) and then readjust the size of the file system afterwards. This could be good for system preinstallation for Linux mackine vendors over a 100 Mbit network, and for others with such capability, whic is commonplace LAN technology. With a 100 Mbit LAN you can install a 1 GB system in less than 2 mins (120 secs). Best regards keld
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Le mer 08/10/2003 à 13:24, Eric Fernandez a écrit : FACORAT Fabrice wrote: not all people have an internet connection and/or a DSL link Why not in a rpm then : screenshots that could be part of documentation. They don't need to be huge or finely detailed. JPG with a high compression (or PNG ?) are sufficient. We had the same idea ... lol --- Je me sers d'animaux pour instruire les hommes -- Jean de La Fontaine Yes, your message below had been delayed on my box :))) For the work that it would take, why not asking Club members ? Let's decide a format, resolution and compression level, and open a thread so that people can post their shots. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long] - install from menu
Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I think this is an interesting thread. A few ideas: 1. make install of progrms directly available from the menu. With a right click one can administer menu items. ine thing is to under eg word processing, you can add a menu item like koffice, if it is not there, and adding the menu item will also install the program. This would be easily understandable for a newbie. It is directly related to the main tool that the newbie (and others) use, namely the menu. Administer menu items could also let the menu item go away - and that would then uninstall the packages too. I like this idea of an installer menu. But to avoid confusion, do not add it to the standard menu (its size would be too important). In addition to rpmdrake, make it a new menu in the bar, with packages sorted using Mandrake choice or other (the sort order could be configured with a right click). It could then open rpmdrake to install them for example. This would be a good way to show rpmdrake to the newbies. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 14:02, Eric Fernandez a écrit : Yes, your message below had been delayed on my box :))) For the work that it would take, why not asking Club members ? Let's decide a format, resolution and compression level, and open a thread so that people can post their shots. very good point, that's sound sensible ! This will increase the community part of mandrake ... no cost for them ... very interesting indeed. --- Quand on regarde le ciel dans l'eau, on voit les poissons dans les arbres. Sancho P.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 01:37:27PM +0100, John Allen wrote: On Wednesday 08 October 2003 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Oct 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. rpmdrake2 is wonderful. But, it still keeps surprising me how people think. The last few days I've been helping a person trying to get mandrake running. He's not so computer illiterate, but only knows windows and dos. Somehow, he tried to install all kinds of programs from source or binary tarbal, without even trying to use rpmdrake (ofcourse he might have not found the programs he was looking for because only 1 CD was added as media, since he only downloaded the first CD). So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? It does provide the list. The first CD should contain all the hdlists for the 3 CDs. and why not for contrib as well? that list is known when the CD's go to the press, all the user would need to do is configure networking and select a mirror. /Simon
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Simon Oosthoek wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 01:37:27PM +0100, John Allen wrote: On Wednesday 08 October 2003 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Oct 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. rpmdrake2 is wonderful. But, it still keeps surprising me how people think. The last few days I've been helping a person trying to get mandrake running. He's not so computer illiterate, but only knows windows and dos. Somehow, he tried to install all kinds of programs from source or binary tarbal, without even trying to use rpmdrake (ofcourse he might have not found the programs he was looking for because only 1 CD was added as media, since he only downloaded the first CD). So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? It does provide the list. The first CD should contain all the hdlists for the 3 CDs. and why not for contrib as well? 1)It's not supported (remember last weeks thread?) 2)If we were to use hdlists, we would have to find another 20MB of packages to axe from the CDs. that list is known when the CD's go to the press, all the user would need to do is configure networking and select a mirror. Which is no less difficult when the hdlists (or synthesis.hdlist.cz if on a slower connection) or not on the CDs ... you still have to know the mirror. In the end, integrating urpmi.setup is probably a better idea. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/hCFfrJK6UGDSBKcRAnYCAJwM1GpbqIt2s+edw/ZsS++DcwzPcACgvNtG 34xNVsN8Wa/i/6xx8eztDlg= =AuxT -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
From: Simon Oosthoek [EMAIL PROTECTED] It does provide the list. The first CD should contain all the hdlists for the 3 CDs. and why not for contrib as well? that list is known when the CD's go to the press, all the user would need to do is configure networking and select a mirror. /Simon Actually almost all contribs are in the Powerpack. But I agree this could be solved simply by merging urpmi.setup and the media manager. It is what Guillaume was talking about this morning and I hope this idea will be kept. Eric
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 04:38:23PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: It does provide the list. The first CD should contain all the hdlists for the 3 CDs. and why not for contrib as well? 1)It's not supported (remember last weeks thread?) hmm, yes... 2)If we were to use hdlists, we would have to find another 20MB of packages to axe from the CDs. that's not acceptable I presume (or maybe we should already start discussing 700MB isos again /me ducking ) Some other format, simple plain text, gzip compressed? that list is known when the CD's go to the press, all the user would need to do is configure networking and select a mirror. Which is no less difficult when the hdlists (or synthesis.hdlist.cz if on a slower connection) or not on the CDs ... you still have to know the mirror. In the end, integrating urpmi.setup is probably a better idea. yes, that would be the best thing probably. /Simon
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Buchan Milne wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Oct 2003, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). If newbies don't use Packages Installation, I think it has more to do with the fact that a computer is frightening in general - they won't use other tools as well, outside of mozilla and evolution and openoffice, until a trusted computer literate friend shows them another one - probably not an administration one. And I'm sure many other persons use rpmdrake2 and are very happy with it. rpmdrake2 is wonderful. But, it still keeps surprising me how people think. The last few days I've been helping a person trying to get mandrake running. He's not so computer illiterate, but only knows windows and dos. Somehow, he tried to install all kinds of programs from source or binary tarbal, without even trying to use rpmdrake (ofcourse he might have not found the programs he was looking for because only 1 CD was added as media, since he only downloaded the first CD). But, which media are available are of no consequence, if the user didn't even try rpmdrake ... yes, probably you're right. I should ask him, maybe he looked only at it and decided it didn't have the stuff he wanted. The problem is that Windows users are used to getting free software (really Shareware or freeware) by downloading from obscure sites on the internet. true :) So could rpmdrake provide info on packages, even if there is no media available for it? How? Telepathy? You're not very optimistic today:-P Might be a bad idea, but, we could just store all of main+contribs+jpackage hdlists on the drive? As all these media are static, it is silly to get them from a mirror. So you can search at look at the description, and only if you really want it you can select a mirror to download it from. I think this is already done. how do you mean done ? do you refer to urpmi.setup? It is not really integrated in rpmdrake? d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le Mercredi 8 Octobre 2003 09:18, Vedran Ljubovic a écrit : I mostly agree wtih your ideas. - Packages have cryptic names kde-konqueror-3.1.3-1mdk.i586.rpm That's just scary. A typical Windows user would never install anything having a name like that. - Descriptions are too technical That's true. This is _now_ the main difficulty for newcomers and the newbies. These last days, I have shown to 4 women (40-50 years old) how to install Mandrake and how to use it. They were not together. They understand everything including partitioning. Diskdrake is very good. But they had a great problem with the packages. They don't understand what is the use of each package and are not able to do a choice. The idea can be achieved with a status, ie: - A: programs shown in menus - B: plugins for these programs - C: programs in command line - D: libraries Then a newbie can select A only to avoid boring informations. Combining this with the the Menu and Rpm-Groups architecture (multimedia, gamesfun, network) it would give a better feeling to newcomers. I suggest also another class called usage : Recommended, Alternative, Why not, Deprecated. Writing better descriptions is not too hard, I for one volunteer to do that, but even with the finest worded descriptions users can still be at a loss about what exactly does each package do. That's why most beginner-oriented shareware CDs feature screenshots of programs they carry. Yes your idea is very good and ergonomic. As GC said, There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! To avoid this, it could be useful to create a database hosted by Mandrake: Main table Name: generic name of the software (primary key) class : program, plugin... usage : Recommended, Common, Deprecated. description : default description in english Localization table Name: generic name of the software (Foreign key) langage : fr, en, ... description : the description of the package author : author of the description date: automatic. The latest will be shown. link-home : home page of the project (ex: http://fr.openoffice.org/) screenshot : localized screenshot (name or URL of the file) Groups table Name: generic name of the software (Foreign key) group : Rpm-Group (a software can belongs to several groups) This is only a draft. I can participate to a full implementation of a database. Then it would be easy to export a localized description of each package if it exists. I suggest to use the club and contributors (people having an account) to fill the localized texts and screenshots. This database should be the first in the world and give the leadership to Mandrake because people want to be helped in their own language to find the software they need. But the most important issue is: - I don't want to install packages, I want to install programs Yes, at the beginning, but when needs are increasing, they have to have a look to the packages. My proposal with classes allows to suit with the needs. My proposition Here are some screenshots: http://members.smartnet.ba/vedran/mdkarp/screen1.png - I would like to use such a tool ! My proposition of a database don't breaks RpmDrake, it is only a complement and is along with your ideas. IMHO, it is a good way for a smooth evolution. RpmDrake can show the localized description if it exists without breaking it. Thank you for reading this enormous mail :) I'm not very good at English so sometimes it takes me more words to articulate my point. Anyway I hope there are some useful ideas here. Fully understandable. My English is not good, too ! But if we can share our ideas, it will be great! That's the power of Libre Software :-) -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Buchan Milne wrote: Another thing that might be useful is to be able to launch the program in the menu entry for a package that is installed, but the problem is, who do you run it as? It's fine when using rpmdrake in user mode, but when running as root it could be a problem ... i'm sure rpmdrake can find out who is owning the display it is running on? perhaps even check if this user==console owner. Ofcourse if is is a remote display, you should not try to run it. Than again, i'm not sure this is a good idea. What do you want to run when you install kdegames ? all of them? d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Buchan Milne wrote: 1)It's not supported (remember last weeks thread?) IMHO the outcome of the thread was that that was a silly argument. And if the packages are searchable, you can make very clear that you are looking at an unsupported media. And that selecting to add it, can lead to problems (but is better than d/l fuzzy rpms from rpmfind). 2)If we were to use hdlists, we would have to find another 20MB of packages to axe from the CDs. But, you do not have to download those 20 MB over your 56k6 modem. Which is no less difficult when the hdlists (or synthesis.hdlist.cz if on a slower connection) or not on the CDs ... you still have to know the mirror. In the end, integrating urpmi.setup is probably a better idea. yes, well that would solve the problem as well:) I see searching /browsing through contribs not as an alternative to a urpmi.setup like behaviour, but as a UI improvement: -search for samba -user can select samba-packages -in separate frame (for example) clearly marked as unsupported software, display ksambaplugin -user looks at descriptions clicks to add ksambaplugin, popup box says: no media available for samba yet, want to add one? if yes, mirror list is displayed, mirror selected and app installed. Than again, other approaches might be better. d.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 07:18, Vedran Ljubovic a écrit : The Sample Implementation Finally, to put my money/time where my mouth is, I've put together a GUI proposal in Qt Designer. (This is kind of like an application that doesn't do anything.) Here are some screenshots: http://members.smartnet.ba/vedran/mdkarp/screen1.png - The main window, showing new categories, nice name and meta-info in action, with a clear separation of the new channels. I can further this design and make some sketches for channel configuration (it's all in my head), Update Programs screen, the pop-up window etc. If anyone is interested I can send the .ui files. you need another tab : Search You perform a query in the package db, and then you will have all packages corresponding to this query displayed and thanks to a color scheme or a mark you will know if the package is installed or not --- Ce n'est pas en continuant de faire ce que l'on connait que l'on pourra faire ce que l'on ne connait pas
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le mer 08/10/2003 à 15:05, Pierre Jarillon a écrit : Le Mercredi 8 Octobre 2003 09:18, Vedran Ljubovic a écrit : Yes your idea is very good and ergonomic. As GC said, There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! To avoid this, it could be useful to create a database hosted by Mandrake: several problems : 1°/ db loads form mdk 2°/ need an internet connection we'd better use a local lighweight db like sqlite ( http://www.sqlite.org/ , http://www.sqlite.org/faq.html ). The first time rpmdrake is launched or when a hdlist is modified, rpmdrake rebuild the database and then do everything after on this database. The difficulty is to sync urpmi/rpmdrake DB with rpm DB ( but you could think about the fact that when an rpm is inserted or deleted from rpm DB, rpm automatically update rpmdrake DB accordingly ). To my mind this could resolve our speed problems with hdlist computations at rpmdrake start and when performing queries. I could hope that sqlite may be far faster. Perl bindings exist - http://www.sqlite.org/cvstrac/wiki?p=SqliteWrappers If the Db is corrupt, just rebuild it ! ( hdlist computation + sync with rpm DB ) Main table Name: generic name of the software (primary key) class : program, plugin... usage : Recommended, Common, Deprecated. description : default description in english Localization table Name: generic name of the software (Foreign key) langage : fr, en, ... description : the description of the package author : author of the description date: automatic. The latest will be shown. link-home : home page of the project (ex: http://fr.openoffice.org/) screenshot : localized screenshot (name or URL of the file) Groups table Name: generic name of the software (Foreign key) group : Rpm-Group (a software can belongs to several groups) This is only a draft. I can participate to a full implementation of a database. Then it would be easy to export a localized description of each package if it exists. I suggest to use the club and contributors (people having an account) to fill the localized texts and screenshots. This database should be the first in the world and give the leadership to Mandrake because people want to be helped in their own language to find the software they need. TRUE ! My proposition of a database don't breaks RpmDrake, it is only a complement and is along with your ideas. IMHO, it is a good way for a smooth evolution. RpmDrake can show the localized description if it exists without breaking it. --- Chez Leon, on est electricien d'ampere en fils, on a seulement les mains balladeuses.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 03:18 am, Vedran Ljubovic wrote: Hello list, I wasn't much involved in Mandrake development until now (except translation), but I hope that that will change. First I must say that, as a long time Mandrake user, I very much appreciate the fine work done by Mandrake developers, especially from a technical point of view. However, I was slightly disappointed to find that the great modifications in RpmDrake in 9.2 RCs were mostly under-the-hub stuff. I'm sure that technical improvements were significant, but the interface is very much the same. Personally, I expected something more radical. I expected that the very concept of packages would finally be abandoned. In this long(ish) mail I'll try to explain what I mean. I hope that someone (preferably RpmDrake developers ;) will actually read this mail and perhaps even make some comments, suggestions and - who knows, one can only hope :) - maybe they will accept some of my ideas and implement them in the next version! On numerous occasions I've heard users complaining how Linux comes on 3 CDs while Windows XP is only one. This shows that they don't realize that these 3 CDs carry hundreds of exciting software titles. The reason for this oversight is, obviously, that program installation tools in present Linux distributions are intimidating and un-friendly. I believe that program installation is the central - and simultaneously, the least user-friendly part of every Linux distribution. When talking to many newbie (Mandrake) Linux users, here are the most frequent complaints they have: - Packages have cryptic names And I don't complain about names such as Konqueror or XMMS - those are fine names for programs. The problem is that a typical package manager will show something like kde-konqueror-3.1.3-1mdk.i586.rpm That's just scary. A typical Windows user would never install anything having a name like that. - Descriptions are too technical You don't have to look too far to find examples of this. Take ami-1.0.11-5mdk. When you replace all the words that a typical user without previous Linux experience wouldn't understand with dots, you get Korean ... using ..., support ... mode and ... mode. ... mode ... is available from the separate packages. wtf??? Writing better descriptions is not too hard, I for one volunteer to do that, but even with the finest worded descriptions users can still be at a loss about what exactly does each package do. That's why most beginner-oriented shareware CDs feature screenshots of programs they carry. So you suggest sticking a screenshot in the rpm? Further down you say certain people have no business installing an OS. Well by extension of that logic they wouldn't have gotten to the installation point so this doesn't need to be worried about. I think you should install what you think you'll need the subgroups mandrake has are perfect for this, no screenshots necessary. - When I install some package, nothing happens The problem here is that, when installing a certain package, user can perceive absolutely no change in her system, so she is left with a scary feeling that something has happened. No desktop icons. No menu entries. No new directories. Nothing. Especially, the thing user expects is some new entries in her start menu. Some reasons why this doesn't happen include: * the K menu sometimes doesn't update immediately * some programs don't have menu entries (a packaging bug!) * some programs are for console only * some packages actually aren't programs but libraries or system components Other possible reasons for the feeling of confusion are: * Linux file system will throw files around, with no distinct package directory * services aren't shown in the systray, or anywhere else, apart for some obscure program (such as DrakServices) - Dependencies Not much to be said here :) - Program installation pops-up during OS install Most users aren't used to install programs together with the system itself. Presenting them with a long list of cryptic package names is one of the scariest parts of a Linux install. A typical user expects to install a plain OS, and then to download and (un)install programs endlessly until she finds something interesting and suitable. That's a typical windows user. mdklinux is not windows and users installing linux know that (at least most of them do). I don't think this is a real problem. If you're coming to linux you already know what to expect and have done some reading. This isn't a real problem. I don't think we cater to windows users. I think we cater to users _coming from windows_ who a looking for something 1. different and 2. reliable I should know that, I've fixed dozens of Windows computers completely broken by senseless installing of everything found on the Internet. But the most important issue is: - I don't want to install packages, I want to
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 06:16 am, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: of view. However, I was slightly disappointed to find that the great modifications in RpmDrake in 9.2 RCs Which great modifications? I mean, you talk about it like some great modifications were advertized somehow? were mostly under-the-hub stuff. I'm sure that technical improvements were significant, but the interface is very much the same. Yes. It has been already much much criticized (discussed?) ya know. I tried to answer the points (even if I'm not the only one who decided for them) each time (I have to admit that I ended up a little tired to answer same thing everytime ;p). Personally, I expected something more radical. I expected that the very concept of packages would finally be abandoned. In this long(ish) mail I'll try to explain what I mean. I hope that someone (preferably RpmDrake developers ;) will actually read this mail and perhaps even make some comments, I'm the so-called rpmdrake developer. I've read your mail. Will try to shortly answer. [...] On numerous occasions I've heard users complaining how Linux comes on 3 CDs while Windows XP is only one. This shows that they don't realize that these 3 CDs carry hundreds of exciting software titles. The reason for this oversight is, obviously, that program installation tools in present Linux distributions are intimidating and un-friendly. I That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). rpmdrake2 you say? where might that little pearl be hiding? -- Hackers know all the right MOVs.
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Le Mercredi 8 Octobre 2003 20:27, FACORAT Fabrice a écrit : Le mer 08/10/2003 à 15:05, Pierre Jarillon a écrit : Le Mercredi 8 Octobre 2003 09:18, Vedran Ljubovic a écrit : Yes your idea is very good and ergonomic. As GC said, There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! To avoid this, it could be useful to create a database hosted by Mandrake: several problems : 1°/ db loads form mdk 2°/ need an internet connection we'd better use a local lighweight db like sqlite ( http://www.sqlite.org/ , http://www.sqlite.org/faq.html ). The first time rpmdrake is launched or when a hdlist is modified, rpmdrake rebuild the database and then do everything after on this database. The difficulty is to sync urpmi/rpmdrake DB with rpm DB ( but you could think about the fact that when an rpm is inserted or deleted from rpm DB, rpm automatically update rpmdrake DB accordingly ). To my mind this could resolve our speed problems with hdlist computations at rpmdrake start and when performing queries. I could hope that sqlite may be far faster. I agree, sqlite is a good idea to replace hdlist. But I was talking of a another database, hosted by Mandrake, with true foreign keys, grants, rollback Like posgresql with integrity constraints. The sqlite database could be an extraction of the main database and this extraction could be included in the distro (like the localized man or howto). Query of the Mandrake database could be allowed to to Club members only. I like evolution instead of revolution. I don't know how is made the rpm database. I suggest to improve this management step by step. The first goal is to get a localization of the rpm. But to avoid to modify the rpms, this could be a separate database in a first step. I spoke at Metz with Martin Michlmayer (Debian project). They have the same problem. I dream of a common localization... why not ? Another idea is that a software can belong to several groups. The groups are defined in only one tree. This is not enough. It is possible to make other trees according to the job: Infography, webmaster, professional sound and music, secretary, and so on. In each profession, certian programs are very useful or not. My database structure can allow people (from club) to maintain a level of pertinence (ie 0..10) for each program in each group. For example OpenOffice would be scored 10 for a secretary and 2 for a webmaster. I worked during 23 years with databases (10 with Oracle), I wish to use my knowledge to help Mandrake. I don't forget that the aim is to help newcomers, to spare time and money to Mandrake and help the Libre Software. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
illogic-al [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). rpmdrake2 you say? where might that little pearl be hiding? this is current rpmdrake. the previous one was written in c/gtk+1 and was replaced by a new one written in perl/gtk+-1 in mdk9.1 (perl/gtk+-2 since mdk9.1)
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 18:10, FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Le mer 08/10/2003 à 14:02, Eric Fernandez a écrit : Yes, your message below had been delayed on my box :))) For the work that it would take, why not asking Club members ? Let's decide a format, resolution and compression level, and open a thread so that people can post their shots. very good point, that's sound sensible ! This will increase the community part of mandrake ... no cost for them ... very interesting indeed. so why not having apps of the month on the club, and test and so on. this way people will have it in their language, with more bigger screenshot and more interaction and so on. -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 21:42, Pierre Jarillon wrote: Le Mercredi 8 Octobre 2003 20:27, FACORAT Fabrice a écrit : Le mer 08/10/2003 à 15:05, Pierre Jarillon a écrit : I like evolution instead of revolution. I don't know how is made the rpm database. I suggest to improve this management step by step. The first goal is to get a localization of the rpm. But to avoid to modify the rpms, this could be a separate database in a first step. i think there is something already for this, according to mdk-rpm-howto, and this part of the cvs : http://cvs.mandrakesoft.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/poSPECS/po/ according to the cvs, there is not much activities on these translations. it worked, i have seen some rpm in french, long ago. this should be discussed on cooker-i18n ML. I spoke at Metz with Martin Michlmayer (Debian project). They have the same problem. I dream of a common localization... why not ? because we do not use the same string for description :) maybe in 10 years, of course, we may have the same description. But until a debian mdk fusion, this seems utopic to me. -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Am Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2003 12:16 schrieb Guillaume Cottenceau: We decided for Media on this list around 3 months ago, this was a sort of community decision I'd say, so I think it's counter-productive to change them all again, except of course if everyone on this list would strongly agree with channels instead of media (which I personally don't, but I may be the only one ;p). bahhh channel ... please noo. media is perfect for what it describes. - Add more sources/media/channels automatically I know that Mandrake will never implement this, but what the hell :) one can dream. The biggest problem with RpmDrake is that sources are still too complicated to configure. Therefore I Olivier Thauvin's easy-urpmi should be integrated in the media configuration tool, when I have time :/ however I'm not very much in favor of pushing newbies to use external packages (at the time cooker was easily addable graphically, so many people broke their system by trying to install programs ugrades). Oh you don't hang around on newbie channels i guess ? tell them about contrib. tell them how to add it And i doubt contrib is external ;) Steffen
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
Hi, Thank you all for your responses! This thread is much more than I've expected. These are a few clarifications, cause I see that there are already some ideas better then what I originally had. --- Guillaume Cottenceau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vedran Ljubovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: of view. However, I was slightly disappointed to find that the great modifications in RpmDrake in 9.2 RCs Which great modifications? I mean, you talk about it like some great modifications were advertized somehow? Sorry I remember reading something on this list back before RC1, it's not quite advertizing. That's not obvious to me. Packages (programs) installation has been simplified in rpmdrake2 (ending up with, among others, current two-different-interfaces which is so critized - even if it's logical and drastically simplifies the GUI). Simple categories are available, good documentation in powerpack manuals and online (and even with a clickable Help button now). And we are gratefull for your excellent work. No reason not to continue in that positive way :) If newbies don't use Packages Installation, I think it has more to do with the fact that a computer is frightening in general - they won't use other tools as well, outside of mozilla and evolution and openoffice, until a trusted computer literate friend shows them another one - probably not an administration one. My proposition Based on the above observations, I believe that the following should be done: - There should be a new application named Add/Remove Programs I fail to see how merging two functionalities would end up with an easier tool, whereas this suggestion keeps poping up. I think people design interfaces they'd like to use, and since they are not newbies, we end up with that suggestion. Well I think the best would be to have separate tabs of the same window (maybe that's your compromise, Danny?) But I could be wrong. The important thing is that one should not be able to uninstall packages with Package Installer, which it is presently. There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! And what about the time needed to do all the screenshots, list plugins.. Well obviously screenshots should be made while packaging. Apart from distributing the workload, this has another benefit of requiring packagers to test their packages. And also, screenshot would be present only for programs (e.g. packages that are listed, which usually are rather large anyway). Noone said that screenshots need to be up-to-date! I think most users would be satisfied with something a few versions back. Finally, those screenshot can be low res, as suggested by Olivier. So I could give up on the Click here to enlarge part :) then screenshots can be 8-bit PNGs constrained to 200x150 pixels. That shouldn't be larger than 20-30 kB. --- Eric Fernandez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Contrib should be easily added by newbies, it is better to support these unofficial repositories instead of seeing newbies trying to install Red Hat packages from rpmfind. Also, there is a strong demand for DVD playing, thus PLF should be easily added. We know it cannot be done out-of-the box, but there is no need to name it (or Gotz suggested that a disclamer would be enough, which makes sense) I think this can be handled by adding a reasonable description to each source. So PLF description can be a de facto disclaimer, Cooker description could be a big consider yourself warned etc. The only thing left is to make this description more prominent, like e.g. displaying it every time you try to install something from that source (well that's way too much I guess :) --- Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] The problem is that Windows users are used to getting free software (really Shareware or freeware) by downloading from obscure sites on the internet. Maybe if they had Download.com.com in their face they would actually like it better then downloading stuff. The reason why people don't use RpmDrake is because they don't get it. It's too complicated. They don't understand why there is stuff which is not programs, they don't understand the numbers and dashes and stuff, and descriptions tell them nothing cause they are full of specialist terms. Thats what people tell me when I ask them. But they might be lying to me, I don't know... How? Telepathy? A database. But it's been said already. __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 03:38:14PM -0700, Vedran Ljubovic wrote: Well obviously screenshots should be made while packaging. Apart from distributing the workload, this has another benefit of requiring packagers to test their packages. And also, screenshot would be present only for programs (e.g. packages that are listed, which usually are rather large anyway). Noone said that screenshots need to be up-to-date! I think most users would be satisfied with something a few versions back. Finally, those screenshot can be low res, as suggested by Olivier. So I could give up on the Click here to enlarge part :) then screenshots can be 8-bit PNGs constrained to 200x150 pixels. That shouldn't be larger than 20-30 kB. A request here: the screenshots should be in the local language, if possible. To newbies, it is important that the interfaces are in their native language. And this is furthermore one of Mandrakes strengths, Mandrake is more translated into native languages than MS windows. Also descriptions should be in native language, at least the short descriptions. We once had theat in specspo, but that is not used anymore. Anyway we are showing text out of hdlists in rpmdrake, ad they do not come translated. Nah, I think installing programs based on the menu is much more user friendly. I note that right-clicking in the menu is currently not used, and thus free for perusal for new functionality. Best regards Keld
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
--- illogic-al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you suggest sticking a screenshot in the rpm? Further down you say certain people have no business installing an OS. Well by extension of that logic they wouldn't have gotten to the installation point so this doesn't need to be worried about. I think you should install what you think you'll need the subgroups mandrake has are perfect for this, no screenshots necessary. No, you don't understand. What I'm saying is that you have: - people that just _use_ computers - people that _administer_ computers for their friends or professionally The problem is, most of the second group now uses Windows (I think that group nr. 1 doesn't care about the OS and probably wouldn't even notice the difference). - Program installation pops-up during OS install [...] That's a typical windows user. mdklinux is not windows and users installing linux know that (at least most of them do). It's the argument of never change anything, make people learn our ways instead. I believe that separating tasks and not putting anything in the installation that isn't absolutely necessary makes a system easier to understand. I don't think we cater to windows users. I think we cater to users _coming from windows_ who a looking for something 1. different and 2. reliable But we can also learn some good things from Microsoft, no? - It presumes that users are too stupid to understand the concept of a software program It's brilliant because it solves the problem you noted above about cryptic names. Who cares what the name is if you click on the internet group and when you boot see that you already have browsers, mail and IM clients (in respective menu entries) installed. Please tell me, do you know anyone that doesn't have an Internet connection? So why not make the Internet checkbox always selected then? And do you know anyone that never in his life needed a word processor? Anyone that never played a media file? Not to mention that a Linux box is useless without gcc and so on. So basically, why don't we just scrap the group selection screen and just install the whole 3 CDs? This goes to prove that the present way is meaningless. Not to you because you're used to either install everything or go directly to detailed package selection. You're not a newbie. How else do you explain the enormous popularity of sites such as Download.com or Tucows? because they are central repositories. your one stop shop for all your software needs we have those to, they're called mirrors :) and then of course, sourceforge and freshmeat for those who must have it now. I'm not talking about the concept, I'm talking about the interface. People obviously use it and obviously can understand it. So why not copy? you've got to be kidding me. you don't know if at least you'll be using Internet or Office or Games or Desktop when you install? No. I'll use all of these, but not all office packages (just one), not all games (just a few), not all net apps (just one browser, one e-mail client)... blahblah. You get my point. And what's really hidden in madrake choices? Some devel packages, compilers, games (ok these should be more accesible since people usually want these), sysadmin stuff like traceroute. The people who use these w/ the exception of games will have no trouble going into all packages to find them Ok, I'll go top-down through packages and name those that are full blown GUI applications and are not listed in Mandrake Choices. Note that I've installed all of the groups, so there is a relatively small amount of stuff that isn't installed: - alsamixergui - arpwatch - avifile-player - bumprace - chromium-setup - circuslinux - eog - ethereal - fbtv And so on. There is a lot more that I have installed so they aren't listed. I really don't have time to look through all of them, but I know I've given up using Mandrake choices because it happens to often that I can't find what I'm looking for. So in essence you want there to be an Idiot Mode? I thought that that's what the Mandrake Choices menu was (which i use) No. While hiding the above, Mdk Choices lists stuff like (I'm going through packages from top-down): - ami - this should be installed by keyboarddrake - chinput - same - drakconf - what's the point for uninstalling the control panel? that would quickly render the OS unusable to newbies - fonts, fonts - should be installed by fontdrake - galaxy - should be installed by a theme manager - gnome-pim-conduits - a plugin to gnome-pim - gurpmi - see drakconf - kinput - see ami - linneighborhood - ok - mountloop - ok - nmap-frontend - ok - rpmdrake - see drakconf - rxvt - ok - rxvt-CJK - a plugin for rxvt - taipeifonts - see fonts - the rest of Gnome workstation - see ami Only the packages marked with ok would stay. As you can see, of the present ~1000 packages, I would leave visible not more than 50. Some of them would enable additional 100
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 07:27 pm, Vedran Ljubovic wrote: - Program installation pops-up during OS install [...] That's a typical windows user. mdklinux is not windows and users installing linux know that (at least most of them do). It's the argument of never change anything, make people learn our ways instead. Not never change anything, never change anything that doesn't need to be changed. It's the argument of if it ain't broke, don't fix it I believe that separating tasks and not putting anything in the installation that isn't absolutely necessary makes a system easier to understand. I don't think we cater to windows users. I think we cater to users _coming from windows_ who a looking for something 1. different and 2. reliable But we can also learn some good things from Microsoft, no? No. and i'm serious here. this isn't just some anti microsoft sentiment. I honestly can't think of one (good) thing we can learn from microsoft. Marketting comes to mind but then when you think of the crooked way in which they usually do it that just goes right through the window. - It presumes that users are too stupid to understand the concept of a software program It's brilliant because it solves the problem you noted above about cryptic names. Who cares what the name is if you click on the internet group and when you boot see that you already have browsers, mail and IM clients (in respective menu entries) installed. Please tell me, do you know anyone that doesn't have an Internet connection? yes So why not make the Internet checkbox always selected then? And do you know anyone that never in his life needed a word processor? yes Anyone that never played a media file? Not to mention that a Linux box is useless without gcc and so on. i haven't used gcc since installing rc2 but most people do use Internet and Office amd Multimedia. So basically, why don't we just scrap the group selection screen and just install the whole 3 CDs? ok that's sarcasm, i'm guessing This goes to prove that the present way is meaningless. Not to you because you're used to either install everything or go directly to detailed package selection. You're not a newbie. but i used to be a newbie, and newbillogic-al loved those menus because it meant he didn't have to spend time sifting through packages that he had no clue what they did. How else do you explain the enormous popularity of sites such as Download.com or Tucows? because they are central repositories. your one stop shop for all your software needs we have those to, they're called mirrors :) and then of course, sourceforge and freshmeat for those who must have it now. I'm not talking about the concept, I'm talking about the interface. People obviously use it and obviously can understand it. So why not copy? you've got to be kidding me. you don't know if at least you'll be using Internet or Office or Games or Desktop when you install? No. I'll use all of these, but not all office packages (just one), not all games (just a few), not all net apps (just one browser, one e-mail client)... blahblah. You get my point. but did you know which one you wanted to use when you started w/ linux. I didn't so two choices were great. I tried koffice and it had a nice interface, but office compatibility sucked. So then i went to oo.o but it was slow as hell and ugly but it had great office compatibility. eventually i chose function over form. but if the two weren't installed i would think oh, there's only one word processor and it doesn't work with word. this sucks i'll have to boot into windows to use word now. I had konq and mozilla, etc. having more than one choice allowed me to know what i wanted. once i got comfortable and reinstalled then i knew what i wanted and could pick and choose as i please. And what's really hidden in madrake choices? Some devel packages, compilers, games (ok these should be more accesible since people usually want these), sysadmin stuff like traceroute. The people who use these w/ the exception of games will have no trouble going into all packages to find them Ok, I'll go top-down through packages and name those that are full blown GUI applications and are not listed in Mandrake Choices. Note that I've installed all of the groups, so there is a relatively small amount of stuff that isn't installed: - alsamixergui - arpwatch - avifile-player - bumprace - chromium-setup - circuslinux - eog - ethereal - fbtv And so on. There is a lot more that I have installed so they aren't listed. I really don't have time to look through all of them, but I know I've given up using Mandrake choices because it happens to often that I can't find what I'm looking for. if you select gnome package then eog comes w/ it. as for the others there isn't one thing in that list that i would typically use. And
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
--- Pierre Jarillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes your idea is very good and ergonomic. As GC said, There would take very much diskspace, especially screenshots! To avoid this, it could be useful to create a database hosted by Mandrake: [...] That's an excellent idea! I'd like to contribute. Fully understandable. My English is not good, too ! But if we can share our ideas, it will be great! That's the power of Libre Software :-) Thanks for the support :) __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
On Wednesday 08 October 2003 07:27 pm, Vedran Ljubovic wrote: It's the argument of never change anything, make people learn our ways instead. If our way is better :-) I believe that separating tasks and not putting anything in the installation that isn't absolutely necessary makes a system easier to understand. And impossible to learn from. I think you are talking about creating a distribution that is much like Lindows or Lycoris. Put the disk in, click a few buttons and reboot. I think Mandrake is much more than this and needs some of the added complexity to keep the power users around. No offense, but there already is a distribution (several) like this, why do we want to create another one? When I install a box, I want the install to be done on reboot, so the package selection and network configuration and all the other complexities in the installer are most welcome here. I don't want it to be like Windows where I have to spend an hour or four on configuration and software/driver installation after the OS install is done. When I install a server, I don't want all the desktop crap installed. Under your scenario, there is no mdk server. BTW, I like your interface, I think the layout is quite nice, but I don't think qt is going to be an option since all the mdk tools are built on gtk. -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx
Re: [Cooker] [Mandrake 10] Ideas for RpmDrake [long]
onsdagen den 8 oktober 2003 09.18 skrev Vedran Ljubovic: Hello list, This thread has been very interesting. To me it it has shown that the meaning of 'Contrib' and all its packages is not going to be sold to a newbie in a new way because Mdk is already doing the right thing. The right thing being to already know what you are going to do in a Mdk-Linux fashion. Contrary to this I want you to visit Webmin and all its different 'setup pages'. There you will most probably find pages that containes icons for programs and tasks that are not installed on your box. In the same way a newbie will most certainly find that 'the Linux way' has hidden ways of doing things that might be of interest to a more educated user. Vedran's mail was one way of asking if it is possible to use a database of descriptions of programs, so that the user might traverse these descriptions in his way, thus not necessarily the 'right Linux way'. If you want to sell 'the Mdk way' of knowledge, then you must have a way of transporting that knowledge to the level of a newbie or Linux is just for advanced geeks. regards guran -- Mandrake Linux Cooker 9.2 kernel-2.4.22.10mdk-1-1mdk VERSION:20030924 21:50 Only in a society that has 'a priori' defined what is the truth can the result from the evolution of life be defined false.
