Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
If you remaster CD1, actually there are three big issues : - the LG drives problem - the updates - the default installed applications. In KDE, a new install has very few applications installed. It was a nice idea to split the kde packages for space reason. What is not nice is that KDE seems completely empty after install (and I am not talking about the update-menus bug though). This is a bug I reported before, for RC1 but also RC2 (bug #5453), and early reviews show criticisms for this. Mozilla is not installed by default, there is no KMail, games are almost empty... At least, Gnome has Galeon and Evolution. Mandrake is supposed to be nice with newbies, thus some more basic applications should be enabled at start, instead of having to install them oneself. This may be corrected also for a remastering of the CD1, by increasing the number of default installed applications. Eric
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
fredagen den 24 oktober 2003 09.58 skrev Eric Fernandez: If you remaster CD1, actually there are three big issues : - the LG drives problem - the updates - the default installed applications. In KDE, a new install has very few applications installed. It was a nice idea to split the kde packages for space reason. What is not nice is that KDE seems completely empty after install (and I am not talking about the update-menus bug though). This is a bug I reported before, for RC1 but also RC2 (bug #5453), and early reviews show criticisms for this. Mozilla is not installed by default, there is no KMail, games are almost empty... What is the necessity for this design of very few KDE packages? How can a newbie be helped in learning to understand Linux by cutting it into a forced search for missing packages? Is it a political decission against qt? In reviews of KDE the journalists very often like the many ways to change KDE in a consistent design. This is helped by kappfinder. What benefits do the Mdk menu has to change the design of KDE. Why is the Mdk screensaver the only single coloured way to save the screen. I don't understand the logic behind these decissions. regards guran -- Slackware Linux Current 9.1 kernel-2.4.22 Only in a society that has 'a priori' defined what is the truth can the result of the evolution of life be defined false.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
guran wrote: What is the necessity for this design of very few KDE packages? How can a newbie be helped in learning to understand Linux by cutting it into a forced search for missing packages? Is it a political decission against qt? In reviews of KDE the journalists very often like the many ways to change KDE in a consistent design. This is helped by kappfinder. What benefits do the Mdk menu has to change the design of KDE. Why is the Mdk screensaver the only single coloured way to save the screen. I don't understand the logic behind these decissions. regards guran Actually I think it is a good idea to split packages. Other distros do it too. Why installing the kde fax machine when you don't have a fax modem ? This is good for saving disk space. However, the installer has to take that in account, and : - update previous versions by considering it has to install the supplementary packages - on a new version install more stuff by default. Newbies will have a ready-to-use box and power users will know they can remove stuff. There is a balance to find between saving space and usability. Eric
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
fredagen den 24 oktober 2003 11.46 skrev Eric Fernandez: guran wrote: What is the necessity for this design of very few KDE packages? How can a newbie be helped in learning to understand Linux by cutting it into a forced search for missing packages? Is it a political decission against qt? In reviews of KDE the journalists very often like the many ways to change KDE in a consistent design. This is helped by kappfinder. What benefits do the Mdk menu has to change the design of KDE. Why is the Mdk screensaver the only single coloured way to save the screen. I don't understand the logic behind these decissions. regards guran Actually I think it is a good idea to split packages. Other distros do it too. Why installing the kde fax machine when you don't have a fax modem ? This is good for saving disk space. I can understand that, but what I am missing is the possibility to have a choice of installed packages. When Mdk has decided to decrease KDE packages and install Gnome stuff, then I as a user should have a nice button to press that says all KDE stuff. If they want to give a Mdk feel to the installation, fine it is their product. But I think that it stinks when other Linux products are excluded as a choice. regards guran -- Slackware Linux Current 9.1 kernel-2.4.22 Only in a society that has 'a priori' defined what is the truth can the result of the evolution of life be defined false.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 guran wrote: | fredagen den 24 oktober 2003 09.58 skrev Eric Fernandez: Guran, no need to flame, no conspiracy here. | What is the necessity for this design of very few KDE packages? | How can a newbie be helped in learning to understand Linux by cutting it into | a forced search for missing packages? Is it a political decission against qt? Nope, this seems like a packaging bug/oversight - you install KDE, but now KDE is just the bare-bones base and does not require the other things (games, kmail, etc. - good thing, IMHO) The installer didn't take this change into account, so nothing gets installed by default. Seems like a communication/testing problem in Mandrakesoft to me. | Why is the Mdk screensaver the only single coloured way to save the screen. This is not a decision but a horrible bug in KDE, which should be fixed ASAP (it is fixed in the updates already, AFAIK) | I don't understand the logic behind these decissions. There is no logic to understand - these are bugs which slipped through the QA process or just weren't fixed. I think the screensavers issue was reported before release, as well as the empty KDE. Why it wasn't fixed, I do not know. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mRaKn11XseNj94gRAtbjAJ4jZ0K6GwcJF7MfaPEmVLSGkhoWQgCgjKmz WWiCvqniAWbgHBj4d07GGzY= =Ba1S -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 guran wrote: | fredagen den 24 oktober 2003 11.46 skrev Eric Fernandez: | I can understand that, but what I am missing is the possibility to have a | choice of installed packages. When Mdk has decided to decrease KDE packages | and install Gnome stuff, then I as a user should have a nice button to press | that says all KDE stuff. This is nonsense. All the KDE packages are there, just not installed by default. That has to be fixed somehow, but I believe that there is no conspiracy against KDE :-) So calm down, please. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mRb+n11XseNj94gRAgCCAKCvZRUpp9CqYcQyqHzHrd39WaquRwCgiySF n4YQv439Jm/v9IuJy1EZ3bs= =EpxF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Le jeu 23/10/2003 à 17:01, Buchan Milne a écrit : But, I don't think anyone on this list qualifies as a newbie. Sure, but i'm on a forum where you have many newbies and I can see what they do and their habits ... a strange this the newbie ;) People on this list should be testing at least half the betas on at least one machine, and/or running cooker full-time on a box (if you don't, you're most probably a lurker ;-)). I'm the sysadmin of the society. My box is full cooker, all the time, with updates the morning, afternoon, evening. There are 2 servers, but there are under STABLE, not cooker ( I'm not crazy enough ), but on my box it test apache+php+postgresql as I'm developing an application with php+postgresql. There are people in teleprospection service ( don't know the name in english ) running under gnome, I when I want to test ISO install I do it there. There are others people under KDE, but if I break their computer ... ( administration ). I don't test ISO installation before I have an RC. Now I'm gonna test netwotrk install as I'm planning to do everything by network. So I think I try to test as much as I can. --- Helas ! on voit que de tout temps Les petits ont pati des sottises des grands. -- Jean de La Fontaine, Les Deux Taureaux et une Grenouille
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
fredagen den 24 oktober 2003 14.09 skrev Jan Ciger: There is no logic to understand - these are bugs which slipped through the QA process or just weren't fixed. I think the screensavers issue was reported before release, as well as the empty KDE. Why it wasn't fixed, I do not know. Jan Thanks, to me you repeat the logic of 'Bill Gates' who said that he didn't want to exclude Linux users, only to integrate MS users (Kerberos hack). guran -- Slackware Linux Current 9.1 kernel-2.4.22 Only in a society that has 'a priori' defined what is the truth can the result of the evolution of life be defined false.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 guran wrote: | fredagen den 24 oktober 2003 14.09 skrev Jan Ciger: | | |There is no logic to understand - these are bugs which slipped through |the QA process or just weren't fixed. I think the screensavers issue was |reported before release, as well as the empty KDE. Why it wasn't |fixed, I do not know. | |Jan | | Thanks, to me you repeat the logic of 'Bill Gates' who said that he didn't | want to exclude Linux users, only to integrate MS users (Kerberos hack). | guran ??? I do not get your point Guran. If you want to be offensive or attack everybody just for the sake of it, do it, but in this case it is totally stupid trolling, nothing more. I was not apologizing the problems in the distro, they should not have been there in the first place, but you seem each time to look for some conspiracy or what. There is none, just plain bugs/laziness/lack of QA/whatever. Such things happened before and not only with KDE (e.g. broken supermount in 9.0 etc). I am KDE user myself, but accusing Mandrakesoft of intentional crippling of KDE is a bit strong cup of coffee for me. Get a life, man. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mUGHn11XseNj94gRAuJHAJ9V6B3HYolMLx5AceYIqOn14+pvZQCeKWJU QOm0BzKzHEqdON+jVI6IDBM= =j0Va -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Eric Fernandez wrote: If you remaster CD1, actually there are three big issues : - the LG drives problem - the updates - the default installed applications. In KDE, a new install has very few applications installed. It was a nice idea to split the kde packages for space reason. What is not nice is that KDE seems completely empty after install (and I am not talking about the update-menus bug though). This is a bug I reported before, for RC1 but also RC2 (bug #5453), and early reviews show criticisms for this. Mozilla is not installed by default, there is no KMail, games are almost empty... At least, Gnome has Galeon and Evolution. Mandrake is supposed to be nice with newbies, thus some more basic applications should be enabled at start, instead of having to install them oneself. This may be corrected also for a remastering of the CD1, by increasing the number of default installed applications. Eric I want to correct what I wrote : actually, a lot of packages are really installed. So it may be a problem only with the updating. However, the task bar is empty, that should be corrected. Eric
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thursday 23 October 2003 02:46, Brad Felmey wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-22 at 20:03, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:0 20 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? You, my fine feathered friend, are full of foo. 7.2 and 8.2 were decent, but not perfect. 9.2 even needing the updates is a heck of a lot better than either 7.2 or 8.2. I know - I've used every Mandrake since 5/6 and run cooker since 7.1. The real issue is the quantity of updates required so soon after release. They could always be like SuSE or RedHat and consider non-security bugfixes and updates to be next point release. Mandrake is bending over backwards. Schedules have to be kept, but they didn't quit working when it was cut - they kept at it to make a good product even better. Why on earth are you complaining, then? -- John Allen, Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MandrakeClub Silver Member.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 08:46:36PM -0500, Brad Felmey wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-22 at 20:03, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? You, my fine feathered friend, are full of foo. I think you're being too harsh! It's a valid worry! 7.2 and 8.2 were decent, but not perfect. 9.2 even needing the updates is a heck of a lot better than either 7.2 or 8.2. I know - I've used every Mandrake since 5/6 and run cooker since 7.1. Nobody/Nothing is perfect, but there are ways to avoid this kind of breakage. They could always be like SuSE or RedHat and consider non-security bugfixes and updates to be next point release. Mandrake is bending over backwards. Schedules have to be kept, but they didn't quit working when it was cut - they kept at it to make a good product even better. I agree that in the rough outline, Mandrake 9.2 is wonderful and fixes a lot of things that were broken earlier, but that's just what a Linux distro is; in the process of getting there. (Same as windows, except that M$ can enforce the support of hardware manufacturers) The thing to avoid is to have silver (pressed) CDs of mdk releases with so many critical bugs on them. When someone installs Mandrake for the first time, he/she won't know how IMPORTANT the updates are! Of course you need to do updates these days for any OS, but with MDK you need them immediately to fix things you would assume are not broken, because they are such a basic feature (screensavers). That's what is wrong here and it is legitimate to complain about it, IMHO. Hopefully the new Anthill will provide a means to collect bugs of a released version. I'm sure this will be seen in the amount of updates which will be released by Mandrake during the lifetime of 9.2/9.1/9.0. But most importantly, the next release should be checked for regressions w.r.t. these bugs. People tend to give up when a pet peeve is not fixed after a while. Speaking of pet peeves, constant printing problems is one of mine (PDF files, OpenOffice, Crossover Office, etc...) ;-) Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Am Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:03:28 + schrieb Galileo: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? IMHO 9.2 is a lot better than any other previous release. The general question however is certainly valid and leads back to older the discussion if a RC3 would not be a good thing. Or maybe not even call it RC3 but call it final quality assurance release where the nice folks at mandrake could freeze cooker (no new features) but in the same time a dedicated crowd of some people would do nothing else but intensively investigate the open _RC1_ _RC2_ specific bug reports. This should also reduce the number of unconfirmed bugs, which can be somewhat irritating to bugreporters. happy hacking udo -- Well, if we were to build it idiot proof, someone would build a better idiot. Civilme
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Brad Felmey wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-22 at 20:03, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? You, my fine feathered friend, are full of foo. He's making a very valid point. If MS did it, the press would (rightly) give stick. 7.2 and 8.2 were decent, but not perfect. 9.2 even needing the updates is a heck of a lot better than either 7.2 or 8.2. I know - I've used every Mandrake since 5/6 and run cooker since 7.1. Quite true. The components (the community) and the package integration (Mandrake developers) are getting more and more attractive. They could always be like SuSE or RedHat and consider non-security bugfixes and updates to be next point release. Mandrake is bending over backwards. Schedules have to be kept, but they didn't quit working when it was cut - they kept at it to make a good product even better. Getting the balance right between QA and the release schedule is the name of the game. Stray too far either way and you're history. Why on earth are you complaining, then? If I had just installed a site-full of Mandrake 9.2 workstations, I would be less than impressed to have this size of update to do so soon after.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thursday 23 October 2003 08:34, Udo Rader wrote: Am Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:03:28 + schrieb Galileo: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:0 20 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? IMHO 9.2 is a lot better than any other previous release. The general question however is certainly valid and leads back to older the discussion if a RC3 would not be a good thing. Or maybe not even call it RC3 but call it final quality assurance release where the nice folks at mandrake could freeze cooker (no new features) but in the same time a dedicated crowd of some people would do nothing else but intensively investigate the open _RC1_ _RC2_ specific bug reports. What is needed is a committed (and known) BETA, RC testers. Each one committed to testing a know set of functionality (hardware software), and regression issues. This should also reduce the number of unconfirmed bugs, which can be somewhat irritating to bugreporters. happy hacking udo -- John Allen, Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MandrakeClub Silver Member.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:03:28 +0200, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? Updates for 7.2 and 8.2 were ONLY for security bug fixes.. Since 9.x, we are now providing ALSO providing updates for bugfixes.. But maybe we should go back and drop all non-security fixes updates ? And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 12:25:03PM +0200, Frederic Crozat wrote: On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:03:28 +0200, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? Updates for 7.2 and 8.2 were ONLY for security bug fixes.. Since 9.x, we are now providing ALSO providing updates for bugfixes.. That's very much appreciated! But maybe we should go back and drop all non-security fixes updates ? please no! But having bugfixes in updates should not be a reason to have less strict requirements for a final release. And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... Oh come on, you can't blame everyone else that you can't fix bugs that aren't reported. There are so many bugs that were reported and not fixed. A lot of obvious faults are in 9.2 that should have been easy to avoid (don't ask me how, but I'm pretty sure of it). This is a good time for Mandrake to start thinking about how to improve the QA process, don't demotivate volunteer helpers on whom you depend for manpower. Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
torsdag 23. oktober 2003, 12:25, skrev Frederic Crozat: On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:03:28 +0200, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:0 20 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? Updates for 7.2 and 8.2 were ONLY for security bug fixes.. Since 9.x, we are now providing ALSO providing updates for bugfixes.. But maybe we should go back and drop all non-security fixes updates ? And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... No, you should continue to provide bug fixes and updates as well!! :-) Thats one of the reasons why I am a club member. But what you should consider, is to use a little bit longer time and have a RC3 cykle also. It is a pity that MDK has got a reputation(from people I talk with) to be a little bit buggy distribution. An RC3 will give people like me, that cant take the risk to put a beta version into production, the chance to do some final testing on a release, that hopfully is stable enough for a production environment. So why this suggestion? Because I do not have that many PC for testing and I have to test it on my production laptop as well. Did this with 9.2 RC2. Steinar :-)
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Steinar Hauge wrote: No, you should continue to provide bug fixes and updates as well!! :-) Thats one of the reasons why I am a club member. But what you should consider, is to use a little bit longer time and have a RC3 cykle also. It is a pity that MDK has got a reputation(from people I talk with) to be a little bit buggy distribution. An RC3 will give people like me, that cant take the risk to put a beta version into production, the chance to do some final testing on a release, that hopfully is stable enough for a production environment. So why this suggestion? Because I do not have that many PC for testing and I have to test it on my production laptop as well. Did this with 9.2 RC2. More RCs done help as long as the differences between RCs remain as big as they are now. Sometimes you see entire new (Mandrake-patched) versions of software, instead of known-stable versions. And sorry to say, but I'm not really happy with all this Mandrake-patching. Those LG cdrom drive-problems would rather probably not happen if Mandrake used an official kernel that is out a few weeks instead of shifting to Mandrake patchlevel X in the last RC, which is patched again and goes untested into the final. An other example: Mandrake supports software suspend, a feature that is known to be buggy and absolutely not mature in 2.4. It crashes my PC. You don't need a certain amount of RCs, you need RCs till nobody reports problems anymore that are serious enough to hold you back from renaming he latest RC into FINAL __without any modification__. Jos
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Simon Oosthoek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since 9.x, we are now providing ALSO providing updates for bugfixes.. That's very much appreciated! But maybe we should go back and drop all non-security fixes updates ? please no! But having bugfixes in updates should not be a reason to have less strict requirements for a final release. actually mdk9.2 was quite better than previous releases regarding quality. And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... Oh come on, you can't blame everyone else that you can't fix bugs that aren't reported. There are so many bugs that were reported and not fixed. sadly, they were obvious bugs that could have been fixed earlier indeed
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Le jeu 23/10/2003 à 10:25, Frederic Crozat a écrit : And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... excuse me, but most people will test during RC period, but the problem was you release ... how many ... 2 RC ! after RC2 there were many bugs remaining to fix, and some people could not install RC2 on their computer. When i could see that some people were beginning to install RC2, they had many problems with screensavers, etc ... Yesterday I contact konica because I had a problem with a printer. The technician in order to test the printer under linux as I was using mdk install ... RC2 ( yes that's the last one available ). Have you have a look at RC of OO.org ? You were able to release a RC with mdk 9.2 because there was practically no differences between the final RC and the final version. My gnome-preference-daemon problem was reported a long time ago on the ML, the same for the locking problem ( when I install 9.1, I had the problem ). For kernel you can't do better as you depend on kernel dev. the kde screensaver problems was reported a long time ago and several times ( just after mdk announce for ad support in the distro, so many people think that this was related ). You're facing the same problem than linus for the kernel. People begin to test only when things are mark as stable or when you have RCx ( with x 1 ). That's why he marks 2.5 as 2.6test and you can see many people testing it, even newbies. Indeed when a newbie say it have a problem with distro version x.y, most of the time, if the problem can't be easily fix ( depends on kernel, or major lib version ), you say : just wait/install distro version x.y+1 ( or x+1.0 ) if you have to wait less than one month. if not, you will advise him to install the version RCx only if x is at lest equal to 2 as you know that more x is greater, more stable is the distro. Theses newbies will test the distro on new hardware ( more or less recent ), and/or catch some bugs that peoples who were using an old version will not see as they manage to workaround it or they learn to live with it. --- |snake ugly, what lame distribution are u running? :P redhat 5.1 - #linux
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thursday 23 October 2003 04:31 am, Thierry Vignaud wrote: actually mdk9.2 was quite better than previous releases regarding quality. yes indeed as a user since 5.3 I have seen huge improvements in 9.2 but then the whole 9.x series has for the most part been great. Really those out there who are complaining have more or less the same issues under redhat and suse not to mention lindows. However lindows and xandros use such old packages that really the kernel is most likely the only thing up to date. Their kde sure isn't. And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... Oh come on, you can't blame everyone else that you can't fix bugs that aren't reported. There are so many bugs that were reported and not fixed. sadly, they were obvious bugs that could have been fixed earlier indeed Yes this is true also I should file a bug report for the scsi being broke in the kernel. I have three machines with two different kinds of scsi cards. All of them crash trying to format the hard drives. So I know this is not isolated in my case. I think i even two or three more systems I could test this on. These systems can not be tested with rc's because they are production boxen. it's kind of damned if you do damned if you dont I guess. However on my desktop it works great. The bad part is that due a scsi hard drive failure I really needed to upgrade and well I was not able to and ended up having to put up a whole new server without scsi. It's all on a 80 gig maxtor now. The other systems dont have ide they are scsi only. I will say however that 9.2 works great with nforce motherboards, game theatre xp sound cards and ati radeons though. This is a first to have such hardware working perfectly out of the box on mandrake. Thanks guys for all your hard work. If you need help troubleshooting the scsi problems I have three downed servers that I can test on. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Le Jeudi 23 Octobre 2003 16:13, FACORAT Fabrice a écrit : Le jeu 23/10/2003 à 10:25, Frederic Crozat a écrit : And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... excuse me, but most people will test during RC period, but the problem was you release ... how many ... 2 RC ! after RC2 there were many bugs remaining to fix, and some people could not install RC2 on their computer. When i could see that some people were beginning to install RC2, they had many problems with screensavers, etc ... Yesterday I contact konica because I had a problem with a printer. The technician in order to test the printer under linux as I was using mdk install ... RC2 ( yes that's the last one available ). As the overall time can't be expanded, it could be better to have 2 beta and 3 RC instead of 3 beta and 2RC. As people use to test only RC, this is a way to get a best bug report. Have you have a look at RC of OO.org ? You were able to release a RC with mdk 9.2 because there was practically no differences between the final RC and the final version. OOo did five RC which were truely Release Candidate. However OOo is far less complicated as a full distro. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Brook Humphrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes this is true also I should file a bug report for the scsi being broke in the kernel. I have three machines with two different kinds of scsi cards. All of them crash trying to format the hard drives. So I know this is not isolated in my case. I think i even two or three more systems I could test this on. it's still time to do so that a workaround or a fix can be found These systems can not be tested with rc's because they are production boxen. it's kind of damned if you do damned if you dont I guess. However on my desktop it works great. The bad part is that due a scsi hard drive failure I really needed to upgrade and well I was not able to and ended up having to put up a whole new server without scsi. It's all on a 80 gig maxtor now. The other systems dont have ide they are scsi only. well, since the boot kernel and the distro kernel are not the same, you may upgrade your machines by doring a regular update or an update through urpmi (urpmi urpmi; urpmi --auto-select) Thanks guys for all your hard work. If you need help troubleshooting the scsi problems I have three downed servers that I can test on. could you fill in a bug report with oops message if possible or any error message availlable on text consoles ? thanks
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Pierre Jarillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... excuse me, but most people will test during RC period, but the problem was you release ... how many ... 2 RC ! after RC2 there were many bugs remaining to fix, and some people could not install RC2 on their computer. When i could see that some people were beginning to install RC2, they had many problems with screensavers, etc ... Yesterday I contact konica because I had a problem with a printer. The technician in order to test the printer under linux as I was using mdk install ... RC2 ( yes that's the last one available ). As the overall time can't be expanded, it could be better to have 2 beta and 3 RC instead of 3 beta and 2RC. As people use to test only RC, this is a way to get a best bug report. agreed. nice idea Have you have a look at RC of OO.org ? You were able to release a RC with mdk 9.2 because there was practically no differences between the final RC and the final version. OOo did five RC which were truely Release Candidate. However OOo is far less complicated as a full distro. indeed some bugs came from different compoents interaction (different libs version requires, compiler, ...)
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thursday 23 October 2003 06:17 am, Thierry Vignaud wrote: Brook Humphrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes this is true also I should file a bug report for the scsi being broke in the kernel. I have three machines with two different kinds of scsi cards. All of them crash trying to format the hard drives. So I know this is not isolated in my case. I think i even two or three more systems I could test this on. it's still time to do so that a workaround or a fix can be found Sure I try to get to it today. I can at least test on one box today but I think the error was the same for them all. Could be wrong though. These systems can not be tested with rc's because they are production boxen. it's kind of damned if you do damned if you dont I guess. However on my desktop it works great. The bad part is that due a scsi hard drive failure I really needed to upgrade and well I was not able to and ended up having to put up a whole new server without scsi. It's all on a 80 gig maxtor now. The other systems dont have ide they are scsi only. well, since the boot kernel and the distro kernel are not the same, you may upgrade your machines by doring a regular update or an update through urpmi (urpmi urpmi; urpmi --auto-select) on the one box this was not an option as the hard drive went out I had no choice but to save my config files and start over. Thanks guys for all your hard work. If you need help troubleshooting the scsi problems I have three downed servers that I can test on. could you fill in a bug report with oops message if possible or any error message availlable on text consoles ? thanks sure I'll try it here. It depends on how busy I get today but at the least I can get it done within the next two or three days. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thu, 2003-10-23 at 02:58, David Coe wrote: If I had just installed a site-full of Mandrake 9.2 workstations, I would be less than impressed to have this size of update to do so soon after. I _do_ support a site full of workstations. It's amazing what cron and a squid cache will do. -- Brad Felmey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uncompensated Mandrake Guinea Pigs, Inc.
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
I think that we need a lot more RCs, and on the contrary they should be more frequent, a lot more frequent. Updating a cooker machine is not the same than installing the distribution from scratch, considering the updating scripts do not have the same effects. For example, there should be 1 RC per 10 days or 2 weeks. Go for a RC5 or RC6, it does not matter if one or two bugs have been squashed, but this way you will attract more beta testers. If you want that more people test the beta versions, you need to consider the human psychology : the more the figure will be big, the more people will want to try the distribution. I even suggested after 9.1 to lie about the actual release date. Maybe this would not be really useful though. Eric
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thursday 23 October 2003 06:41 am, Brad Felmey wrote: I _do_ support a site full of workstations. It's amazing what cron and a squid cache will do. or a local repository in my case. Download once and have it available for everybody. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thursday 23 October 2003 06:17 am, Thierry Vignaud wrote: Thanks guys for all your hard work. If you need help troubleshooting the scsi problems I have three downed servers that I can test on. could you fill in a bug report with oops message if possible or any error message availlable on text consoles ? thanks filed a report on bugzilla it would seem that the installer does not like drives with macos partitions on them I hope this helps. One more little thing the install includes bittorent-gui but not bittorent. I'll file another report here shortly as k3b also does not work with my cd burner but arson does see it fine. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Le jeu 23/10/2003 à 10:25, Frederic Crozat a écrit : And if people were reporting bugs/responding to queries DURING the beta/RC period, more bugs would be fixed BEFORE final release... excuse me, but most people will test during RC period, but the problem was you release ... how many ... 2 RC ! This was known long in advance: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/ReleaseInfo#Schedule_estimation_WarLy after RC2 there were many bugs remaining to fix, and some people could not install RC2 on their computer. I can't remember any bugs which prevented installation of RC2. Maybe you have bug numbers? When i could see that some people were beginning to install RC2, they had many problems with screensavers, etc ... IIRC this problem is not in RC2. Yesterday I contact konica because I had a problem with a printer. The technician in order to test the printer under linux as I was using mdk install ... RC2 ( yes that's the last one available ). Well, RC2 is mostly OK. Have you have a look at RC of OO.org ? You were able to release a RC with mdk 9.2 because there was practically no differences between the final RC and the final version. Have you looked at samba? They release 25 alphas, 3 betas, and 5 RCs, and there are still some big bugs in 3.0.0 (which is why we have 3.0.1pre1 in cooker, it's more stable ...). Why? Simply because people don't like to test software which isn't marked as stable on production machines, so some bugs don't get found. But, if there is a hard deadline (as there was sufficiently in advance for Mandrake 9.2), then if you are going to bother testing, you must do it early enough. Bugs which require significant effort to fix (and this includes bugs in KDE packages since they are quite large) need to be reported early. My gnome-preference-daemon problem was reported a long time ago on the ML, the same for the locking problem ( when I install 9.1, I had the problem ). And, there was more than one bug involved in this, and the maintainer had problems reproducing it. For kernel you can't do better as you depend on kernel dev. the kde screensaver problems was reported a long time ago and several times ( just after mdk announce for ad support in the distro, so many people think that this was related ). You're facing the same problem than linus for the kernel. People begin to test only when things are mark as stable or when you have RCx ( with x 1 ). That's why he marks 2.5 as 2.6test and you can see many people testing it, even newbies. Indeed when a newbie say it have a problem with distro version x.y, most of the time, if the problem can't be easily fix ( depends on kernel, or major lib version ), you say : just wait/install distro version x.y+1 ( or x+1.0 ) if you have to wait less than one month. if not, you will advise him to install the version RCx only if x is at lest equal to 2 as you know that more x is greater, more stable is the distro. Theses newbies will test the distro on new hardware ( more or less recent ), and/or catch some bugs that peoples who were using an old version will not see as they manage to workaround it or they learn to live with it. But, I don't think anyone on this list qualifies as a newbie. People on this list should be testing at least half the betas on at least one machine, and/or running cooker full-time on a box (if you don't, you're most probably a lurker ;-)). If you want to be sure that some things will work in the final release, test *early*! Of course, some bugs will just never be fixed, whether there is one RC or 25. - -KDE single/double click - -drakconnect hostname madness And, I would like a reply on my request for supporting mutliple sessions by default (trivial mods to /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers) Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mAlOrJK6UGDSBKcRAoMsAKCWflcS3hxb1N8XZUQU3HSBjcHaGgCcC+UK H6HPaVTf4wl6OruC/ac0N+g= =ELjz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thu, 2003-10-23 at 13:32, Pierre Jarillon wrote: OOo did five RC which were truely Release Candidate. However OOo is far less complicated as a full distro. Well, yeah. That's the problem. OO.o is far less complicated than a full distro...yet even THEY think five release candidates are necessary. MDK is far more complex than OO.o, yet we seem to think it's okay to get by on two release candidates. I'm always amazed by how well things turn out, but it's still not optimal. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Thu, 2003-10-23 at 18:29, Adam Williamson wrote: Well, yeah. That's the problem. OO.o is far less complicated than a full distro...yet even THEY think five release candidates are necessary. MDK is far more complex than OO.o, yet we seem to think it's okay to get by on two release candidates. I'm always amazed by how well things turn out, but it's still not optimal. Seriously! With every release I have baited breath, waiting for some big disaster, and so far, 8.2, 9.0, and 9.1 went off without any major problems. It is amazing, considering the last minute, rampant qa frenzy. Austin -- Austin Acton Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeLinux Volunteer Developer, homepage: www.groundstate.ca
[Cooker] Huge List of Updates
Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ?
Re: [Cooker] Huge List of Updates
On Wed, 2003-10-22 at 20:03, Galileo wrote: Another proof that Mandrake releases unfinished products. http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/advisory.php?name=MDKA-2003:020 More that 250 MB of updates excluding SRPMS. How the hell did this happen ? It looks like x.2 doesn't mean a thing anymore. 7.2 and 8.2 were perfect. Why isn't so with 9.2 ? You, my fine feathered friend, are full of foo. 7.2 and 8.2 were decent, but not perfect. 9.2 even needing the updates is a heck of a lot better than either 7.2 or 8.2. I know - I've used every Mandrake since 5/6 and run cooker since 7.1. They could always be like SuSE or RedHat and consider non-security bugfixes and updates to be next point release. Mandrake is bending over backwards. Schedules have to be kept, but they didn't quit working when it was cut - they kept at it to make a good product even better. Why on earth are you complaining, then? -- Brad Felmey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uncompensated Mandrake Guinea Pigs, Inc.
