subject:"\[Cooker\] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib..."

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:01:17AM +0100, David BAUDENS wrote:
For you, maybe. But for Microsoft, it is enough to start an action in
justice. So, I am sorry but I refuse to see Mandrake close for a such
stupid thing.

David,

I suggest you start packing your things...

Codeweavers plugin provides the ability to download and install these
fonts too...

And you ship the demo version of it on the Boxed copies of the
International + Documentation CD (9.0) and Commercial Applications CD 1
(8.2, :
[breser@occipital RPMS]$ rpm -qpi
crossover-plugin-demo-1.1.2-1mdk.i586.rpm
Name: crossover-plugin-demoRelocations: (not
relocateable)
Version : 1.1.2 Vendor: MandrakeSoft
Release : 1mdk Build Date: Tue 13 Aug 2002
07:41:01 AM PDT
Install date: (not installed) Build Host:
no.mandrakesoft.com
Group : Applications/EmulatorsSource RPM:
crossover-plugin-demo-1.1.2-1mdk.src.rpm
Size: 17366347 License: Commercial
Packager: Arnaud de Lorbeau [EMAIL PROTECTED]
URL : http://www.codeweavers.com
Summary : Makes Windows plugins and document viewers compatible with
Linux web browsers
Description :
CrossOver Plugin delivers a complete web browsing experience by making
Windows plugins and document viewers compatible with Linux. It supports
QuickTime 5, Shockwave Director, the Microsoft Office document viewers,
and more.

CrossOver Plugin uses native Windows plugins, ensuring that you get the
best compatibility possible. For instance, CrossOver Plugin supports the
QuickTime Movie Player from Apple, providing an exclusive solution for
viewing the popular Sorenson encoded QuickTime movie format on Linux.

With CrossOver Plugin, you can also easily open Microsoft Office
documents directly from your desktop, or view those sent as email
attachments. CrossOver Plugin allows you to uses the Microsoft Office
document viewers for viewing and printing Word, Excel, and PowerPoint
documents. CrossOver Plugin integrates these viewers into your Linux
desktop, file manager, and even your email browser.

CrossOver Plugin works on any Linux distribution and can be integrated
into most browsers including Netscape, Konqueror, Mozilla, Galeon and
Opera. For additional information about CrossOver Plugin, or other
products and services that CodeWeavers provides, see
www.codeweavers.com.

You provide it on Club:
http://www.mandrakeclub.com/modules.php?name=Downloadsd_op=viewdownloaddetailslid=94ttitle=Crossover_Plugin

You sell it from MandrakeStore:
http://www.mandrakestore.com/mdkinc/index.php?PAGE=tab_2/menu_0.phpid_art=192LANG_=en#GOTO_192

You've even offered a discount to club members to buy it...

Expect the Microsoft storm troppers to attack any day now.

--
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Adam Williamson

On Thu, 2002-11-28 at 18:05, Buchan Milne wrote:

 I am sure many people on this list consider Mandrake to be one of the
 few viable competitors to Microsoft. Remember that Mandrake is probably
 approaching the same market share Apple has. I think MS would take Apple
 on if they had to.
 
 For whatever wierd reason, lawyers are expensive. No matter what the
 outcome would be, I think Mandrakesoft would rather pay their developers
 than lawyers to represent them at such a case.
 
 We'll put the RPM in PLF, and it will have to stay there until
 Mandrakesoft has $40 Billion in cash (assuming MS's cashpile doesn't grow).
 
 People will have to learn about PLF, or sponsor better, freely licensed
 fonts.

Sorry Buchan, but you're simply restating the case I'm replying to, not
replying to my case. You haven't given any convincing reasoning why
Mandrake would need to spend any significant amount on legal
representation, because that assertion presupposes that a case against
Mandrake on the basis of this RPM could get anywhere at all in any legal
system, which I simply don't think is the case. You also haven't given
any reason to believe Microsoft would *want* to launch such an action;
can you please give me a single reasonable (from Microsoft's
perspective) ground for such an action?

People on this list might indeed consider Mandrake competitors to
Microsoft, but that doesn't matter a fig. What matters is what Microsoft
thinks, and Microsoft simply doesn't consider Linux a credible desktop
OS. Thus what it sees as a marginal, desktop-based Linux distribution is
seen as no threat to it at all. It sees Linux as significant competition
in the mid-range server space, where Red Hat and UnitedLinux are
perceived to the be significant Linux forces, along with IBM. I doubt
Mandrake has anything like Apple's share of the desktop O/S segment.
Apple's share is around 5%; the combined share of *all* *nix O/Ses on
the desktop is, I think, below that 5%, let alone Mandrake's
*individual* share.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

This thread is getting absolutely ridiculous.  Let's not forget that we are 
talking about Microsoft's copyrighted binaries - it's much more serious than 
patent issues that Mandrake constantly faces.  If Mandrake ships freetype 
without the bytecode interpreter because it MIGHT be a patent violation, I 
don't see how they can ship packages that facilitate installing unlicensed 
Microsoft fonts.

On Thursday 28 November 2002 11:36 am, Adam Williamson wrote:
 I just don't think this is either accurate or true, and I worry about
 the quality of Mandrake's legal advice. I thnik Mandrake is being way,
 way too timid in this case. It's a nice popular myth that big companies
 can force small ones into ruinous trials at the drop of a hat, and it's
 certainly true in some contexts, but I don't think it's true in this
 context at all.

This IS serious.  Don't forget that you are working with Microsoft's 
copyrighted binary programs (fonts are fairly complex programs, by the way).  
They paid quite a bit of money to develop those, and I am sure that they 
would not appreciate Mandrake using their work for free without permission.  
Their license SPECIFICALLY prohibits using their fonts as value-add.  That is 
exactly what you are saying Mandrake should use them for.

 Whether the difference is immediately obvious or not is
 simply not an issue, because it can easily be explained. The legal
 system is sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between supplying
 the source code for a patent-infringing application (not illegal) and
 supplying a compiled binary of that source code (illegal), it's
 certainly sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between a package
 which includes some material and one which doesn't.

The court system has consistently ruled that supplying links to such 
infringing binaries is also illegal.  Basically, they look at INTENT: source 
code can be treated as a description of an algorithm, but if you have a 
source RPM that is designed to be compiled into binary code that is a 
different story.  The same thing with Microsoft fonts.

Do you think that supplying the source code to LAME on the CD and compiling it 
during installation would be more legal than just including the binary?  I 
don't think so.

 I can't see any
 competent lawyer seeing a snowball's chance in hell of a positive
 outcome in an action against such a script, because such a script has
 absolutely rock-solid foundations. I really can't see such a case being
 pursued under the circumstances, because Microsoft would have absolutely
 nothing to gain. Let's not flatter ourselves here, Microsoft couldn't
 really give a damn about Mandrake - it wouldn't even care too much about
 putting Mandrake out of business, because it doesn't see Mandrake as a
 competitor.

Microsoft has quite a bit to gain from pulling major Linux companies out of 
business.  Let's not delude ourselves here.  They want people to THINK they 
don't care about Mandrake, but they really do care. 

Also, failing to protect your patents or software from being copied is a good 
way to lose control of that software.  That's why Microsoft removed their 
fonts from the website they used to be on.  Why do you think they put them in 
a click-wrap .exe file in the first place -- to let people use them freely?

Finally, you have to understand that a mere filing of a lawsuit is enough to 
put Mandrake out of business.  They would have to hire a lawyer, send him to 
whereever the lawsuit gets filed, and defend themselves.  That costs far more 
cash than Mandrake has to spare.  Obviously, an overly cautious policy is 
better than a lax one.

 Microsoft is too short-sighted to consider a relatively
 small, desktop-directed (this is the perception of Mandrake) distro as a
 threat. Microsoft's perceived threats in the Linux arena are IBM, Red
 Hat and to a lesser extent UnitedLinux. Given that an action against
 Mandrake would be utterly unlikely to succeed, would generate an
 avalanche of bad press for Microsoft, and would give them absolutely no
 positive benefit, I can't see it happening. 

4 words: NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY.  Microsoft is neither retarded nor 
short-sighted.  Don't treat them as such.

Also, I don't see how protecting your copyrighted content is going to generate 
bad press.  You could use the same argument to justify including pirated 
warez in the distribution (or links to such).  In both cases, you are 
facilitating copyright infringement.

 Hell, I wouldn't even bet
 against the possibility that, if someone actually *ASKED* Microsoft,
 they'd expressly say it was OK to include a download script for their
 web fonts.

Is that why they removed them from public access a few months ago?

 As someone pointed out, Microsoft WANTED those fonts
 distributed across the web, it wasn't trying to restrain their
 distribution at all.

See above.  The only reason they were on the web in the first place is because 
Microsoft wanted every windows user to have

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:43:38PM -0600, Igor Izyumin wrote:
 This thread is getting absolutely ridiculous.  Let's not forget that we are 
 talking about Microsoft's copyrighted binaries - it's much more serious than 
 patent issues that Mandrake constantly faces.  If Mandrake ships freetype 
 without the bytecode interpreter because it MIGHT be a patent violation, I 
 don't see how they can ship packages that facilitate installing unlicensed 
 Microsoft fonts.

Go read the license again.  They are licensed...

 This IS serious.  Don't forget that you are working with Microsoft's 
 copyrighted binary programs (fonts are fairly complex programs, by the way).  
 They paid quite a bit of money to develop those, and I am sure that they 
 would not appreciate Mandrake using their work for free without permission.  
 Their license SPECIFICALLY prohibits using their fonts as value-add.  That is 
 exactly what you are saying Mandrake should use them for.

It prohibits distribution for profit.  Including the package in contrib
and making sure it never gets on the CDs doesn't count as for profit.
The words value add never occur in the license.

Further Mandrake already ships crossover plugin's demo which will
happily download and install the fonts on their commercial CDs.  So
actually they wouldn't be increasing their exposure to a lawsuit by
placing them in contribs.

 The court system has consistently ruled that supplying links to such 
 infringing binaries is also illegal.  Basically, they look at INTENT: source 
 code can be treated as a description of an algorithm, but if you have a 
 source RPM that is designed to be compiled into binary code that is a 
 different story.  The same thing with Microsoft fonts.
 
 Do you think that supplying the source code to LAME on the CD and compiling it
 during installation would be more legal than just including the binary?  I 
 don't think so.

This is not the same thing at all.  LAME is a patent issue.  This is a
matter of interpreting a license agreement.  The license agreement from
Microsoft includes the right to install and use on an unlimited number
of computers.  It Fraunhaufer made a similar licensing of their patent,
I'm sure we would be including LAME without even thinking about it.

 Also, failing to protect your patents or software from being copied is a good 
 way to lose control of that software.  That's why Microsoft removed their 
 fonts from the website they used to be on.  Why do you think they put them in 
 a click-wrap .exe file in the first place -- to let people use them freely?

There is no clause in copyright law about failing to protect your
copyright.  That only applies to trademark and patent law.

 Finally, you have to understand that a mere filing of a lawsuit is enough to 
 put Mandrake out of business.  They would have to hire a lawyer, send him to 
 whereever the lawsuit gets filed, and defend themselves.  That costs far more 
 cash than Mandrake has to spare.  Obviously, an overly cautious policy is 
 better than a lax one.

More than likely if Microsoft were to take any action (which is highly
improbably, about as likely as Fraunhaufer going after them for mp3
decoders), they would simply send a cease and decist letter / DMCA
copyright violation notice.  Mandrake would take the package off the
mirrors.  End of story. 

Microsoft would have little to gain take this to court.  Copyright law
civil penalties are based upon real damages.  Real damages from a font
that is distributed for free would be well umm *ZERO*.

So worse case scenario is that they throw their weight around a bit to
bully us into doing what they want.

 Also, I don't see how protecting your copyrighted content is going to generate
 bad press.  You could use the same argument to justify including pirated 
 warez in the distribution (or links to such).  In both cases, you are 
 facilitating copyright infringement.

Suing someone for providing a script that downloads and installs fonts
you are distributing for free would.  You can count on it.  This is not
warez.  This is not pirated software.

 Is that why they removed them from public access a few months ago?

Because they didn't want to pay the bandwidth bill for people
downloading something that they don't need (they assume everyone already
has them).

 See above.  The only reason they were on the web in the first place is because
 Microsoft wanted every windows user to have those fonts.  Not for competitors 
 such as Mandrake.  That's why they removed them from the website.

I guess that's why they shipped them in Macintosh formats too.  Guess
they like helping out Apple users.  

 If you are dealing with other people's proprietary software, it's a good 
 policy to exercise caution.  If you think Microsoft wants Mandrake to have 
 these fonts, why don't you email them and ask for express permission to do 
 so?

Because they already have granted such permission.  That's the point of
the license agreement.

-- 
Ben Reser

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thursday 28 November 2002 12:31 pm, Ben Reser wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:01:17AM +0100, David BAUDENS wrote:
  For you, maybe. But for Microsoft, it is enough to start an action in
  justice. So, I am sorry but I refuse to see Mandrake close for a such
  stupid thing.

 David,

 I suggest you start packing your things...

 Codeweavers plugin provides the ability to download and install these
 fonts too...

There are two key differences:
1. Mandrake does not make Crossover.  Codeweavers does.  They are taking most 
of the risk here.  It's a much smaller risk for Mandrake than including a 
script that auto-installs fonts.
2. Crossover does not install these fonts transparently.  They still present 
the click-wrap in its original form, and they could argue that it's the 
user's responsibility to make sure they have a right to use that piece of 
software.

Technically, using MSIE or Windows Media Player without owning a copy of 
Windows is illegal.  That's why Crossover always shows a warning saying 
please read the license carefully.

Don't compare apples and oranges.

How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a set 
of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.  I am pretty sure that someone 
could get the FontLab people (www.pyrus.com) to donate a copy or at least 
sell it at a reduced price.  Then you could just fix the broken fonts (very 
hard) or make bitmaps for them (easy but time-consuming).  Or you could try 
pfaedit, although it's not exactly a mature program. Anyway, I think a 
constructive approach would be better in the long run than just recycling 
Microsoft's fonts.
-- 
-- Igor

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Adam Williamson

On Thu, 2002-11-28 at 18:43, Igor Izyumin wrote:

 This thread is getting absolutely ridiculous.  Let's not forget that we are 
 talking about Microsoft's copyrighted binaries - it's much more serious than 
 patent issues that Mandrake constantly faces.  If Mandrake ships freetype 
 without the bytecode interpreter because it MIGHT be a patent violation, I 
 don't see how they can ship packages that facilitate installing unlicensed 
 Microsoft fonts.

What do you mean, unlicensed? They're still under exactly the same
license they were under when they were distributed on Microsoft's site.
Just because Microsoft happens to have stopped distributing them on its
own website doesn't change the licensing situation one iota.

 On Thursday 28 November 2002 11:36 am, Adam Williamson wrote:
  I just don't think this is either accurate or true, and I worry about
  the quality of Mandrake's legal advice. I thnik Mandrake is being way,
  way too timid in this case. It's a nice popular myth that big companies
  can force small ones into ruinous trials at the drop of a hat, and it's
  certainly true in some contexts, but I don't think it's true in this
  context at all.
 
 This IS serious.  Don't forget that you are working with Microsoft's 
 copyrighted binary programs (fonts are fairly complex programs, by the way).  
 They paid quite a bit of money to develop those, and I am sure that they 

Technical point - they didn't develop most of these fonts. They licensed
them, they were already in existence. I believe only two or three were
actually created in-house at Microsoft, including Comic Sans.

 would not appreciate Mandrake using their work for free without permission.  
 Their license SPECIFICALLY prohibits using their fonts as value-add.  That is 
 exactly what you are saying Mandrake should use them for.

The license prohibits the distribution OF THE FONTS in a package that's
sold for profit. This description doesn't fit the vast majority of
copies of Mandrake that exist, and furthermore it's not the fonts that
would be shipped. The license applies to the fonts, not to anything
else.

  Whether the difference is immediately obvious or not is
  simply not an issue, because it can easily be explained. The legal
  system is sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between supplying
  the source code for a patent-infringing application (not illegal) and
  supplying a compiled binary of that source code (illegal), it's
  certainly sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between a package
  which includes some material and one which doesn't.
 
 The court system has consistently ruled that supplying links to such 
 infringing binaries is also illegal.  Basically, they look at INTENT: source 
 code can be treated as a description of an algorithm, but if you have a 
 source RPM that is designed to be compiled into binary code that is a 
 different story.  The same thing with Microsoft fonts.

I don't believe this has been proven at all, let alone sufficiently
proven.

 Do you think that supplying the source code to LAME on the CD and compiling it 
 during installation would be more legal than just including the binary?  I 
 don't think so.

I think it would be a debatable point which has nothing to do with the
issue at hand.

  I can't see any
  competent lawyer seeing a snowball's chance in hell of a positive
  outcome in an action against such a script, because such a script has
  absolutely rock-solid foundations. I really can't see such a case being
  pursued under the circumstances, because Microsoft would have absolutely
  nothing to gain. Let's not flatter ourselves here, Microsoft couldn't
  really give a damn about Mandrake - it wouldn't even care too much about
  putting Mandrake out of business, because it doesn't see Mandrake as a
  competitor.
 
 Microsoft has quite a bit to gain from pulling major Linux companies out of 
 business.  Let's not delude ourselves here.  They want people to THINK they 
 don't care about Mandrake, but they really do care. 

What does Microsoft have to gain from putting Mandrake, specifically,
out of business? I don't see anything at all. And they have a lot to
lose, namely, absolutely atrocious press. A significant proportion of
the entire industry press would be down on them like a ton of bricks for
such an action.

 Also, failing to protect your patents or software from being copied is a good 
 way to lose control of that software.  That's why Microsoft removed their 
 fonts from the website they used to be on.  Why do you think they put them in 
 a click-wrap .exe file in the first place -- to let people use them freely?

They didn't only provide them as .exes, as someone has pointed out. They
also provided them as StuffIt-compressed files to be used (freely) on
MacOS, a competing operating system. Microsoft removed the fonts because
virtually everyone on Earth has them now anyway...

 Finally, you have to understand that a mere filing of a lawsuit is enough to 
 put

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thursday 28 November 2002 12:56 pm, Ben Reser wrote:
 It prohibits distribution for profit.  Including the package in contrib
 and making sure it never gets on the CDs doesn't count as for profit.
 The words value add never occur in the license.

I am not a lawyer, and I will not pretend that I understand what for profit 
means in the context of this license.  In this case, I am assuming this could 
mean adding value to another product or service.  Even putting it in 
contribs adds value to Mandrake's products (we wouldn't be having this 
discussion otherwise).  There is a definite potential for a lawsuit here.

 Further Mandrake already ships crossover plugin's demo which will
 happily download and install the fonts on their commercial CDs.  So
 actually they wouldn't be increasing their exposure to a lawsuit by
 placing them in contribs.

Yes, they would.  Crossover is a third-party product and as such is not 
Mandrake's responsibility.  Its primary purpose is not to install the fonts, 
but to run the plugins.  Furthermore, crossover uses an unaltered form of 
their executable that presents the EULA exactly as it was originally -- in 
Microsoft's click-wrap.

 This is not the same thing at all.  LAME is a patent issue.  This is a
 matter of interpreting a license agreement.  The license agreement from
 Microsoft includes the right to install and use on an unlimited number
 of computers.  It Fraunhaufer made a similar licensing of their patent,
 I'm sure we would be including LAME without even thinking about it.

You could say that LAME is the issue of interpreting a patent.

 There is no clause in copyright law about failing to protect your
 copyright.  That only applies to trademark and patent law.

Yes, but if Microsoft later tries to sue somebody for violating the 
copyright/EULA for their software, they would have a much easier case if they 
showed that they consistently prosecute such offenses.

 More than likely if Microsoft were to take any action (which is highly
 improbably, about as likely as Fraunhaufer going after them for mp3
 decoders), they would simply send a cease and decist letter / DMCA
 copyright violation notice.  Mandrake would take the package off the
 mirrors.  End of story.

Microsoft obviously doesn't want their competitors to use the fonts.  Mandrake 
is one of their competitors.  Incorporating your competitor's software into  
your product, even indirectly, is a good way to get sued.  Don't delude 
yourself.

They could file a lawsuit if they felt like it.  Cease and desist is just a 
nicer way to stop the violation.  I don't think copyright laws say that you 
have to first send a threatening letter to the offender.  

There was a story recently about some people who uncapped their cable modems.  
Did they get a nice little letter telling them to stop stealing service?  No, 
they just got an FBI visit and had their stuff confiscated.

This has nothing to do with DMCA, by the way.  Plain old copyright law.

 Microsoft would have little to gain take this to court.  Copyright law
 civil penalties are based upon real damages.  Real damages from a font
 that is distributed for free would be well umm *ZERO*.

If I distribute Photoshop for free, it's still illegal.  Besides, Microsoft 
doesn't actually have to win the lawsuit to put Mandrake out of business.  
They have good enough lawyers that Mandrake would not be able to get the 
lawsuit dismissed easily.

 So worse case scenario is that they throw their weight around a bit to
 bully us into doing what they want.

More like put Mandrake out of business.

 Suing someone for providing a script that downloads and installs fonts
 you are distributing for free would.  You can count on it.  This is not
 warez.  This is not pirated software.

They are not distributing the fonts anymore.  Their page says that they ended 
that program.  Providing a script that downloads and installs those 
particular fonts (they are in .exes so you have to do hacking) is about the 
same as just packaging the fonts in an rpm.  The user also does not get the 
click-wrap prompt.


  Is that why they removed them from public access a few months ago?

 Because they didn't want to pay the bandwidth bill for people
 downloading something that they don't need (they assume everyone already
 has them).

I don't think that bandwidth costs were the issue here.  Microsoft said they 
removed them due to abuse:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/links/LK2586010557.html

  If you are dealing with other people's proprietary software, it's a good
  policy to exercise caution.  If you think Microsoft wants Mandrake to
  have these fonts, why don't you email them and ask for express permission
  to do so?

 Because they already have granted such permission.  That's the point of
 the license agreement.

Unless you are prepared to pay for a lawyer to validate that claim, you should 
not make such assertions. 

Their license does not seem to permit distributing fonts for commercial

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Giuseppe Ghibò

Igor Izyumin wrote:


How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a set 
of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.  I am pretty sure that someone 
could get the FontLab people (www.pyrus.com) to donate a copy or at least 
sell it at a reduced price.  Then you could just fix the broken fonts (very 

I think there is no need of FontLab. George Williams has already done
a marvellous job in pfaedit (see pfaedit package in contrib) which can already 
do good jobs on TTF and Type1 font editing.

Note also that Webfonts appears fine when a freetype2 with BCI interpreter
is enabled (so the version from PLF), while our due to Apple patents isn't. Note
also that BCI restrictions only applies to TTF fonts not to Type1 hinted fonts
(so a Type1 font should be preferred [OK, mozilla supports only TTF, and not
PFB, but that's another story..., OOo instead supports both]).

Apart this I think that font copyrights also protects the glyph design
(like for music melodies). Otherwise one can easily clone a font: rendering 
for instance a font like Verdana at an high resolution (e.g. 1dpi), 
autotrace it to vectorize and produce a compatible font (bytecode instruction 
the TTF file could be manually added later...).

Bye.
Giuseppe.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 01:01:15PM -0600, Igor Izyumin wrote:
 There are two key differences:
 1. Mandrake does not make Crossover.  Codeweavers does.  They are taking most 
 of the risk here.  It's a much smaller risk for Mandrake than including a 
 script that auto-installs fonts.

No difference here... I make the package.  Mandrake doesn't.

 2. Crossover does not install these fonts transparently.  They still present 
 the click-wrap in its original form, and they could argue that it's the 
 user's responsibility to make sure they have a right to use that piece of 
 software.

There's no requirement to show the click-wrap in the license.  Simply
says that the license must be distributed with the fonts.  The package
easily compiles with this.  It even installs the license in
/usr/share/doc...

 Technically, using MSIE or Windows Media Player without owning a copy of 
 Windows is illegal.  That's why Crossover always shows a warning saying 
 please read the license carefully.

There's no technically about it.  The license is rather explicit about
it.  Yet Mandrake still ships crossover, which allows you to install
Windows Media Player.

From the Windows Media Player 6.4 License agreement:
NOTE:  IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID EULA FOR A MICROSOFT OS PRODUCT, YOU
ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY OR OTHERWISE USE THE OPERATING
SYSTEM COMPONENTS AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLIMENTAL EULA.

I don't think they could have made it more clear.  For those that don't
realize it Microsoft refers to Windows Media Player as an Operating
System Component throughout the license.

 Don't compare apples and oranges.

It's not apples and oranges... it's walking the same fine line I am.
The fact that codeweavers uses Microsoft's installer program and I do
not is incosequential to the license, since it makes no requirement to
execute the Microsoft installer, nor does it require the display of the
clickthrough license, only that it is provided with the software.

 How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a set 
 of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.  I am pretty sure that someone 
 could get the FontLab people (www.pyrus.com) to donate a copy or at least 
 sell it at a reduced price.  Then you could just fix the broken fonts (very 
 hard) or make bitmaps for them (easy but time-consuming).  Or you could try 
 pfaedit, although it's not exactly a mature program. Anyway, I think a 
 constructive approach would be better in the long run than just recycling 
 Microsoft's fonts.

This is not intended to be a fix to the situation.  It's more akin to
a workaround.  No matter how nice of fonts we create some people will
always prefer some other font.  This is simply about choice and making
it simple for people to make that choice.

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Danny Tholen

On Thursday 28 November 2002 19:56, Ben Reser wrote:

 There is no clause in copyright law about failing to protect your
 copyright.  That only applies to trademark and patent law.
AFAIK it does not apply to patents, only trademark. Remember lzw/gif?

Igor:
  Finally, you have to understand that a mere filing of a lawsuit is enough
haha,
if that would be true, why don't they file a lawsuit just for fun now?

 So worse case scenario is that they throw their weight around a bit to
 bully us into doing what they want.
Great PR stunt, would give mandrake some good press!

OTOH: some other programs which do not have a completely open
licence (nvidia?) are distrubuted by the club. Maybe that is allowed?

My trouble with plf is that it can take a lot of time before a user finds were 
to get this stuff (since I consider it unlikely that plf is added to default 
urpmi sources).

Danny

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Danny Tholen

On Thursday 28 November 2002 20:01, Igor Izyumin wrote:

 There are two key differences:
 1. Mandrake does not make Crossover.  Codeweavers does.  They are taking
 most of the risk here.  It's a much smaller risk for Mandrake than
 including a script that auto-installs fonts.
Strange reasoning. Mandrake provides crossover and the script. The script was 
made by Ben. So what is the difference? (Hell, if you think it is because of 
it is a company, Ben could start one just for holding the copyright of the 
script).
 2. Crossover does not install these fonts transparently.  They still
 present the click-wrap in its original form, and they could argue that it's
 the user's responsibility to make sure they have a right to use that piece
 of software.
Ok, shall I submit a patch so that the files are unpacked trough a call to 
wine to unzip the files? Including nice popup EULA? Would that make everybody 
happy?

 How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a
 set of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.  
Decent bitmap fonts...Am I reading this well?

I am pretty sure that
 someone could get the FontLab people (www.pyrus.com) to donate a copy or at
 least sell it at a reduced price.  Then you could just fix the broken fonts
 (very hard) or make bitmaps for them (easy but time-consuming).  Or you
 could try pfaedit, although it's not exactly a mature program. Anyway, I
 think a constructive approach would be better in the long run than just
 recycling Microsoft's fonts.

_good_ fonts are hard to make and expensive to buy.

Danny

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 01:47:05PM -0600, Igor Izyumin wrote:
 I am not a lawyer, and I will not pretend that I understand what for profit 
 means in the context of this license.  In this case, I am assuming this could 
 mean adding value to another product or service.  Even putting it in 
 contribs adds value to Mandrake's products (we wouldn't be having this 
 discussion otherwise).  There is a definite potential for a lawsuit here.

Well if Crossover isn't enough to get Microsoft to chase them down them
putting it in contrib is even less of a risk.

 Yes, they would.  Crossover is a third-party product and as such is not 
 Mandrake's responsibility.  Its primary purpose is not to install the fonts, 
 but to run the plugins.  Furthermore, crossover uses an unaltered form of 
 their executable that presents the EULA exactly as it was originally -- in 
 Microsoft's click-wrap.

If it's not Mandrake's responsiblity then why won't they put my package
in contrib?  Mandrake obviously isn't making my package.

 Yes, but if Microsoft later tries to sue somebody for violating the 
 copyright/EULA for their software, they would have a much easier case if they 
 showed that they consistently prosecute such offenses.

That's would be a nice argument.  *IF* *AND* *ONLY* *IF* they were
already on the war path with other people that were doing the same
thing.  They aren't.

 Microsoft obviously doesn't want their competitors to use the fonts.  Mandrake
 is one of their competitors.  Incorporating your competitor's software into  
 your product, even indirectly, is a good way to get sued.  Don't delude 
 yourself.

Guess we better take RPM out of Mandrake along with all the other
software Mandrake's competitors have written that Mandrake has added to
their distribution.  Your argument is specious.  What matters is the
license.  Not who wrote it.

 They could file a lawsuit if they felt like it.  Cease and desist is just a 
 nicer way to stop the violation.  I don't think copyright laws say that you 
 have to first send a threatening letter to the offender.  

And yet they have done neither to any of the other people doing similar
things.  Humm yeah.  If Microsoft would want to kill anyone it would be
Codeweavers.  Codeweavers makes a product that eases the transition from
Microsoft Operating Systems to Linux.  This is a much bigger threat to
them than just Mandrake.  There are dozens of distros.  But there is
only one crossover that makes it as easy and seamless to use plugins
from Windows.

 There was a story recently about some people who uncapped their cable modems. 
 Did they get a nice little letter telling them to stop stealing service?  No, 
 they just got an FBI visit and had their stuff confiscated.

Yet another absurd comparision.  

 This has nothing to do with DMCA, by the way.  Plain old copyright law.

It has everything to do with the DMCA.  The DMCA governs how you are
required to provide notice to people making digital content available
via the internet that violates your copyrights.  Of course you'd know
that if you'd have actually read the law.

 If I distribute Photoshop for free, it's still illegal.  Besides, Microsoft 
 doesn't actually have to win the lawsuit to put Mandrake out of business.  
 They have good enough lawyers that Mandrake would not be able to get the 
 lawsuit dismissed easily.

It's illegal because you wouldn't have a license to distribute it.  Now
who's comparing apples and oranges?

 They are not distributing the fonts anymore.  Their page says that they ended 
 that program.  Providing a script that downloads and installs those 
 particular fonts (they are in .exes so you have to do hacking) is about the 
 same as just packaging the fonts in an rpm.  The user also does not get the 
 click-wrap prompt.

Click wrap prompt is never mentioned in the license.  And the exes are
just self extracting cab files.  No hacking involved.  If extracting
compressed data from a self extracting file is considered hacking we
better remove unzip from the distro.

 I don't think that bandwidth costs were the issue here.  Microsoft said they 
 removed them due to abuse:
 http://www.linuxdevices.com/links/LK2586010557.html

That's the first citation of abuse as the reason.  And I've seen no
source for where they got that.  Besides... it's irrelevent if they are
on their site or not.

 Unless you are prepared to pay for a lawyer to validate that claim, you should
 not make such assertions. 

We are forced to interperet licenses everyday.  But fine.  On Monday
when all the lawyers are back I'll pay a lawyer the $800 it'll cost me
to prove to you that I'm not violating their license.  But what the hell
if it'll shut up all you folk that can't read a very simple license
agreement it'll be worth the money.

 Their license does not seem to permit distributing fonts for commercial 
 purposes, and Mandrake is most certainly a for-profit company.  It's a pretty 
 grey area, and only a qualified legal

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thursday 28 November 2002 01:37 pm, Giuseppe Ghibò wrote:
 Igor Izyumin wrote:
  How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a
  set of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.  I am pretty sure that
  someone could get the FontLab people (www.pyrus.com) to donate a copy or
  at least sell it at a reduced price.  Then you could just fix the broken
  fonts (very

 I think there is no need of FontLab. George Williams has already done
 a marvellous job in pfaedit (see pfaedit package in contrib) which can
 already do good jobs on TTF and Type1 font editing.

Pfaedit is a good outline editor, but it doesn't do hinting yet.  Fontlab 
currently has the best hinting, but even that doesn't approach the quality of 
the Monotype (microsoft) fonts.  I think Monotype just programmed the 
bytecode directly.

The easier way to accomplish the same goal is to add bitmaps to TT fonts for 
low resolutions.  Pfaedit might be able to do that, I'm not sure.

 Note also that Webfonts appears fine when a freetype2 with BCI interpreter
 is enabled (so the version from PLF), while our due to Apple patents isn't.
 Note also that BCI restrictions only applies to TTF fonts not to Type1
 hinted fonts (so a Type1 font should be preferred [OK, mozilla supports
 only TTF, and not PFB, but that's another story..., OOo instead supports
 both]).

This is not the problem here.  The Microsoft fonts appear fine on an 
unmodified Mandrake install without the bytecode interpreter.  Type1 fonts 
don't, since their hinting mechanism is not designed for screen resolutions 
and since they aren't really hinted well.

 Apart this I think that font copyrights also protects the glyph design
 (like for music melodies). Otherwise one can easily clone a font:
 rendering for instance a font like Verdana at an high resolution (e.g.
 1dpi), autotrace it to vectorize and produce a compatible font
 (bytecode instruction the TTF file could be manually added later...).

This is actually legal under US law, I believe.  US copyright law does not 
protect typefaces to the same extent as everything else.  That's really not 
necessary, though.  You can easily take an old typeface for which the 
copyright has expired and clone it, and there are plenty of free fonts that 
have perfectly good outlines.  The problem is hinting - making those fonts 
render well at small sizes and low resolutions.  Only professionally-made 
fonts have good hinting, and Microsoft's are by far the best.  If you can add 
good hinting to an existing font, by all means, do so!

Here are some free (as in speech) outline TTF fonts that need hinting to be 
usable:
http://www.nongnu.org/freefont/
-- 
-- Igor

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 08:33:52PM +0100, Danny Tholen wrote:
 AFAIK it does not apply to patents, only trademark. Remember lzw/gif?

It applies to patents.  Unisys has never actually gone to court over
lzw.  Adobe and other big companies settled with undisclosed terms.  The
rest of the industry just quietly followed along.  So the LZW patent
hasn't ever really been challenged.

 Great PR stunt, would give mandrake some good press!

Yeah note all the publicity that Lindows has received after getting sued
for trademark infringement of Windows.  They are still around.
Microsoft is getting nowhere with their prosecution of the case.  And
now evertime mainstream (meaning not just computer publications) press
mentions Linux they mention Lindows.

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thursday 28 November 2002 01:40 pm, Danny Tholen wrote:
 On Thursday 28 November 2002 20:01, Igor Izyumin wrote:
  There are two key differences:
  1. Mandrake does not make Crossover.  Codeweavers does.  They are taking
  most of the risk here.  It's a much smaller risk for Mandrake than
  including a script that auto-installs fonts.

 Strange reasoning. Mandrake provides crossover and the script. The script
 was made by Ben. So what is the difference? (Hell, if you think it is
 because of it is a company, Ben could start one just for holding the
 copyright of the script).

  2. Crossover does not install these fonts transparently.  They still
  present the click-wrap in its original form, and they could argue that
  it's the user's responsibility to make sure they have a right to use that
  piece of software.

 Ok, shall I submit a patch so that the files are unpacked trough a call to
 wine to unzip the files? Including nice popup EULA? Would that make
 everybody happy?

  How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a
  set of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.

 Decent bitmap fonts...Am I reading this well?

Please read a book about font technology before arguing.  Bitmap fonts 
typically look better than equivalent Truetypes, as long as you aren't 
scaling them.  You can actually embed bitmaps in TTF fonts for particular 
sizes so the TTF looks nice at that size and scales well for other sizes.  

 _good_ fonts are hard to make and expensive to buy.

So are good programs.  Yet people make free software that works quite nicely.  

There are plenty of free fonts (such as those shipped with Mandrake) that just 
need better hinting.  That is not nearly as hard to do as making an original 
font, since it's mostly mechanical work.
-- 
-- Igor

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Giuseppe Ghibò

Igor Izyumin wrote:


 Pfaedit is a good outline editor, but it doesn't do hinting yet.  Fontlab
 currently has the best hinting, but even that doesn't approach the quality of
 the Monotype (microsoft) fonts.  I think Monotype just programmed the
 bytecode directly.


Are you talking about TTF or Type1. On type1 there is hinting, and regarding
TTF hinting there is a companion program called ttfmod
(http://pfaedit.sourceforge.net/TtfMod/), well, still incomplete bu usable.
Anyway AFAIK the hinting of fonts like webfonts are not done with graphics
font editor like fontlab, etc.; and hinting with TTF instruction is also
not very easy (it's not like adding a simple HSTEM, VSTEM, DSTEM): you have
almost to program a font. Furthermore AFAIK fontlab only supports a subset
of TTF hinting instructions.


 This is not the problem here.  The Microsoft fonts appear fine on an
 unmodified Mandrake install without the bytecode interpreter.  Type1 fonts
 don't, since their hinting mechanism is not designed for screen resolutions
 and since they aren't really hinted well.

IMHO when BCI is disabled unhinted TTF fonts are rendered much better than 
hinted TTF fonts. Regarding the Type1, I think I can get very good results when
fonts are well hinted (of course URW aren't, see for instance Palladio...).
Anyway latest freetype 2.1.3 has great improved rendering for hinted Type1 fonts.

Bye.
Giuseppe.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Giuseppe Ghibò

Igor Izyumin wrote:

How about fixing the font packages instead?  It's not that hard to make a

set of decent bitmap fonts from the TTF ones.


Decent bitmap fonts...Am I reading this well?



Please read a book about font technology before arguing.  Bitmap fonts 
typically look better than equivalent Truetypes, as long as you aren't 
scaling them.  You can actually embed bitmaps in TTF fonts for particular 
sizes so the TTF looks nice at that size and scales well for other sizes.  

Well, IMHO the problem is that native bitmapped fonts are not antialiased,
and when you go over a certain point size (let's say 12 px) the antialias
gives better readability.




_good_ fonts are hard to make and expensive to buy.



So are good programs.  Yet people make free software that works quite nicely.  

There are plenty of free fonts (such as those shipped with Mandrake) that just 
need better hinting.  That is not nearly as hard to do as making an original 
font, since it's mostly mechanical work.

Any volunteer?

Bye.
Giuseppe.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Helge Hielscher

David BAUDENS wrote:


On Thursday 28 November 2002 00:46, Adam Williamson wrote:
 

To say it again:

NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO PUT THE MICROSOFT CORE FONTS IN MANDRAKE.

Is that clear enough? Do you want it up in lights somewhere?

Ben wants his WRAPPER SCRIPT THAT DOWNLOADS AND INSTALLS THE
MICROSOFT CORE FONTS in Mandrake.

This is a different thing entirely.
   


For you, maybe. But for Microsoft, it is enough to start an action in 
justice. So, I am sorry but I refuse to see Mandrake close for a such 
stupid thing.

Why hasnt Microsoft taken Suse to court? They use such a script since 
several releases.

Regards,
Helge

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Ron Stodden

Sorry, Ben, but as you may imply from my signature below, I maintain a
current (up to 15 minutes ago) mirror of all Mandrake's Change Logs and
binary output.

There has been no mention of crossover anything in the change log or in
the cooker contrib tree or in the unsupported/MandrakeClub tree.

Ben Reser wrote:
On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:01:17AM +0100, David BAUDENS wrote:

For you, maybe. But for Microsoft, it is enough to start an action in
justice. So, I am sorry but I refuse to see Mandrake close for a such
stupid thing.

David,

I suggest you start packing your things...

Codeweavers plugin provides the ability to download and install these
fonts too...

You provide it on Club:
http://www.mandrakeclub.com/modules.php?name=Downloadsd_op=viewdownloaddetailslid=94ttitle=Crossover_Plugin

You sell it from MandrakeStore:
http://www.mandrakestore.com/mdkinc/index.php?PAGE=tab_2/menu_0.phpid_art=192LANG_=en#GOTO_192

You've even offered a discount to club members to buy it...

Expect the Microsoft storm troppers to attack any day now.

--
Ron. [Melbourne, Australia]
troels... now updated to use ftp.sunet.se server.
See: http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronst/

RE: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-28 Thread Linux-Lists.Mandrake.Cooker

Ok, .uk says it all...  Sorry, but here in the US a hot cup of coffee
gets you in court.  An employee who works for you parttime gets involved
in a traffic accident, and you go to work.

Maybe it's a case that won't win, so what?  It costs a lot of money to
defend yourself against a frivolous lawsuit.

BTW, I don't like your attitude, so I'm suing you.  Better go find you
an attorney, cause I have ten or so bored to tears.  Yeah, that's the
attitude in the US these days.


Lacy Moore, Project Administrator
Moore  Moore General Contractors, Inc.


-Original Message-
From: Adam Williamson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Posted At: Thursday, November 28, 2002 11:37 AM
Posted To: Cooker
Conversation: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...
Subject: Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Thu, 2002-11-28 at 16:23, David Walser wrote:
 C'mon people, give it up.  The difference between some
 script that DLs them at install time and an RPM that
 ships them directly is not immediately obvious to a
 non-techie.  What that means is, it's close enough for
 Microsoft to sue, and MandrakeSoft to not be able to
 get the case dismissed in a summary judgement.  It
 would have to go to full trial so you could explain to
 the judge the difference between an RPM and an SRPM. 
 Full trial == $$$, money MandrakeSoft doesn't have. 
 Furthermore, you all are pressuring them to do
 something unsafe, something which could cause them
 they're livelihood, so understand their attitude.

I just don't think this is either accurate or true, and I worry about
the quality of Mandrake's legal advice. I thnik Mandrake is being way,
way too timid in this case. It's a nice popular myth that big companies
can force small ones into ruinous trials at the drop of a hat, and it's
certainly true in some contexts, but I don't think it's true in this
context at all. Whether the difference is immediately obvious or not is
simply not an issue, because it can easily be explained. The legal
system is sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between supplying
the source code for a patent-infringing application (not illegal) and
supplying a compiled binary of that source code (illegal), it's
certainly sophisticated enough to draw a distinction between a package
which includes some material and one which doesn't. I can't see any
competent lawyer seeing a snowball's chance in hell of a positive
outcome in an action against such a script, because such a script has
absolutely rock-solid foundations. I really can't see such a case being
pursued under the circumstances, because Microsoft would have absolutely
nothing to gain. Let's not flatter ourselves here, Microsoft couldn't
really give a damn about Mandrake - it wouldn't even care too much about
putting Mandrake out of business, because it doesn't see Mandrake as a
competitor. Microsoft is too short-sighted to consider a relatively
small, desktop-directed (this is the perception of Mandrake) distro as a
threat. Microsoft's perceived threats in the Linux arena are IBM, Red
Hat and to a lesser extent UnitedLinux. Given that an action against
Mandrake would be utterly unlikely to succeed, would generate an
avalanche of bad press for Microsoft, and would give them absolutely no
positive benefit, I can't see it happening. Hell, I wouldn't even bet
against the possibility that, if someone actually *ASKED* Microsoft,
they'd expressly say it was OK to include a download script for their
web fonts. As someone pointed out, Microsoft WANTED those fonts
distributed across the web, it wasn't trying to restrain their
distribution at all. I'm sure Mandrakesoft have made their decision, I
simply believe they're making a mistake and it's legitimate to continue
to point out that mistake in the hope this will be considered more
rationally and not in such a climate of fear at a later date.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Texstar

We've been playing with it all afternoon on pclo and it works great! Nice job 
Ben. The only issue I had so far is if I recompile the source rpm with the 
tahoma font enabled, I get a recursion error when attempting it install the 
new rpm. 

On Wednesday 27 November 2002 01:42 am, nDiScReEt wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 I second that and I'm going to try and test it now! I will post my
 findings.

 On Wednesday 27 November 2002 12:47 am, Rocco Stanzione wrote:
  On Tuesday 26 November 2002 12:33 pm, Ben Reser spake thusly:
 
  Ben, very well and creatively done.  I don't think it could have
  (legally) been made any easier, and if there's one thing that's
  frustrated me about Mandrake release after release it's having to go
  through the font deuglification howto to have a tolerable-looking
  desktop.  I look forward to seeing this in contrib.
 
  Rocco
 
   This makes it trivial for an end user to install these fonts.  They
   simply have to do urpmi msttcorefonts.

 - --
 - 
 Altoine B
 Maximum Time Unlimited
 Chicago Based and Operated
 http://pgp.mit.edu
 - 
 The reward for working hard is more hard work.
 - 
 2.4.19-19nds
 Mandrake Linux release 9.1 (Cooker) for i586
 - 
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 Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

 iD8DBQE95HdjxjybQmhmUgYRAtavAJ92/zmUL7pxjsgAMuxZbML10QdikACcDrhg
 zITmgMIk8NVng0ok7pUH9u0=
 =lNaV
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:13:27AM -0600, Texstar wrote:
 We've been playing with it all afternoon on pclo and it works great! Nice job 
 Ben. The only issue I had so far is if I recompile the source rpm with the 
 tahoma font enabled, I get a recursion error when attempting it install the 
 new rpm. 

Well what do you expect you changed the RPM without changing the release
tag. :)  At any rate you can always force it in that case.  It doesn't
clean up the build env if there is an error.

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread nDiScReEt

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It is like I have a brand new computer! I didn't realize just how bad the old 
fonts were until after I installed this package! I went the urpmi route and I 
love it! You are the man, Ben! Thank you for your work on putting together 
this package. I know this is off topic but what does your fluxbox bring to 
the table that mandrake doesn't? I plan to make one minor or maybe two 
changes to the fluxbox that would make it perfect for me. 

On Tuesday 26 November 2002 12:33 pm, Ben Reser wrote:
 Before anyone hits reply and says we can't do this read how it's done.

 Basically this is a bootstrap RPM that takes and sets up a build
 environment, builds a spec file that downloads the fonts (modified from
 the sourceforge one), installs the resulting RPM, and removes the build
 enviornment and the the resulting RPM.

 It complies with Microsoft's license because the fonts are being
 distributed as is without modification and are not included in the
 bootstrap RPM whatsoever.

 This makes it trivial for an end user to install these fonts.  They
 simply have to do urpmi msttcorefonts.

 The SRPM has been uploaded to incoming.

 More details are available on my site for it at:
 http://ben.reser.org/corefonts/

 Details on the bootstrap RPM:
 Name: msttcorefonts-bootstrap  Relocations: (not
 relocateable)
 Version : 0.1   Vendor: MandrakeSoft
 Release : 3mdk  Build Date: Sat 16 Nov 2002
 02:26:11 PM PST
 Install date: (not installed)   Build Host:
 occipital.brain.org
 Group   : System/Fonts/True typeSource RPM:
 msttcorefonts-bootstrap-0.1-3mdk.src.rpm
 Size: 3684 License: GPL
 Packager: Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 URL : http://ben.reser.org/corefonts/
 Summary : Bootstrap RPM for Microsoft TrueType Core Fonts.
 Description :
 Bootstrap rpm that downloads and builds an RPM to install the TrueType
 core fonts for the web that was once available from
 http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/.  After downloading the
 fonts it sets up a temporary rpm build environment in
 /var/tmp/msttcorefonts-bootstrap, builds a new binary RPM from an
 include
 SPEC file, installs the new rpm.  The resulting RPM will uninstall
 the bootstrap rpm and install the fonts.

 NOTE: The resulting RPM is not redistributable as it would violate the
 Microsoft EULA for the fonts.  This rpm also requires an internet
 connection
 at install time.  The License tag on this package only applies to the
 package
 as it stands.  The resulting package is essentially free (as in beer)
 but
 commercial software.

 The details on the resulting msttcorefonts RPM:
 Name: msttcorefontsRelocations: (not
 relocateable)
 Version : 0.1   Vendor: MandrakeSoft
 Release : 3mdk  Build Date: Sat 16 Nov 2002
 02:35:32 PM PST
 Install date: Sat 16 Nov 2002 02:35:34 PM PST  Build Host:
 occipital.brain.org
 Group   : System/Fonts/True typeSource RPM:
 msttcorefonts-0.1-3mdk.src.rpm
 Size: 5698810  License: Commercial
 Packager: Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 URL : http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/
 Summary : Microsoft True Type Core Fonts
 Description :
 The TrueType core fonts for the web that was once available from
 http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/. The src rpm is cleverly
 constructed so that the actual fonts are downloaded from Sourceforge's
 site
 at build time. Therefore this package technically does not
 'redistribute'
 the fonts, it just makes it easy to install them on a linux system.

- -- 
- 
Altoine B
Maximum Time Unlimited
Chicago Based and Operated
http://pgp.mit.edu
- 
Only someone with nothing to be sorry for smiles back at the rear of an
elephant.
- 
2.4.19-19nds
Mandrake Linux release 9.1 (Cooker) for i586
- 
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ToI3I+pNo8O5DJLymGm56Ho=
=ihPJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread John Allen

Rocco Stanzione wrote:


On Tuesday 26 November 2002 12:33 pm, Ben Reser spake thusly:

Ben, very well and creatively done.  I don't think it could have (legally) 
been made any easier, and if there's one thing that's frustrated me about 
Mandrake release after release it's having to go through the font 
deuglification howto to have a tolerable-looking desktop.  I look forward to 
seeing this in contrib.
 

Well I'm using Cooker with KDE 3.1, and Anti-Aliasing enabled with the 
Luxi Sans [xft] font, and the desktop looks just magic. No Microsoft 
fonts needed whatsoever. I think the latest Qt anti-aliasing is just 
fantastic.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Le Mardi 26 Novembre 2002 19:33, Ben Reser a écrit :
 Before anyone hits reply and says we can't do this read how it's done.

 Basically this is a bootstrap RPM that takes and sets up a build
 environment, builds a spec file that downloads the fonts (modified from
 the sourceforge one), installs the resulting RPM, and removes the build
 enviornment and the the resulting RPM.

You always assume people have a DSL connection 
Most computers still have a simple RTC modem and in that case, you'll need to 
set up the connection, transferring, assuming everything is going fine.

I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0 ... (of 
course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a kppp root 
connection !)

Stef

Auto Dial Up - Was Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Hello,

Isn't it about time that a single user Linux box could do auto dial up ? 
I mean if window$ can do it I'm sure Linux can too. I've tried with 
diald and had very mixed results usually not working at all. I read 
somewhere that ppp was capable but I have never managed to get it to 
work ! There was talk, when in X, of kPPP having this option, but that 
was back in KDE 2 days and it still hasn't materialised ! Moreover, when 
in X, if you want to click on a link you first have to bring up the 
dialer and then dial out manually !! Not only is this a pain but it 
certainly doesn't attract window$ users who have the ability to dial 
automatically / work off line / cancel the attempt all together from a 
single dialog.

Owen

Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:
 
Le Mardi 26 Novembre 2002 19:33, Ben Reser a écrit :

Before anyone hits reply and says we can't do this read how it's done.

Basically this is a bootstrap RPM that takes and sets up a build
environment, builds a spec file that downloads the fonts (modified from
the sourceforge one), installs the resulting RPM, and removes the build
enviornment and the the resulting RPM.



You always assume people have a DSL connection 
Most computers still have a simple RTC modem and in that case, you'll need to 
set up the connection, transferring, assuming everything is going fine.

I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0 ... (of 
course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a kppp root 
connection !)

Stef

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

I agree. I find that as a laptop user the fonts look even better with 
the rgba = rgb; lines commented back in in XftConfig.

However TT fonts still look pretty rough in Mozilla and Opera, maybe 
they do things there own way ?

Owen

John Allen wrote:

Rocco Stanzione wrote:


On Tuesday 26 November 2002 12:33 pm, Ben Reser spake thusly:

Ben, very well and creatively done.  I don't think it could have 
(legally) been made any easier, and if there's one thing that's 
frustrated me about Mandrake release after release it's having to go 
through the font deuglification howto to have a tolerable-looking 
desktop.  I look forward to seeing this in contrib.
 

Well I'm using Cooker with KDE 3.1, and Anti-Aliasing enabled with the 
Luxi Sans [xft] font, and the desktop looks just magic. No Microsoft 
fonts needed whatsoever. I think the latest Qt anti-aliasing is just 
fantastic.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Buchan Milne

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:
 Le Mardi 26 Novembre 2002 19:33, Ben Reser a écrit :

Before anyone hits reply and says we can't do this read how it's done.

Basically this is a bootstrap RPM that takes and sets up a build
environment, builds a spec file that downloads the fonts (modified from
the sourceforge one), installs the resulting RPM, and removes the build
enviornment and the the resulting RPM.


 You always assume people have a DSL connection 
 Most computers still have a simple RTC modem and in that case, you'll
need to
 set up the connection, transferring, assuming everything is going fine.

 I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0
... (of
 course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a
kppp root
 connection !)


[ -e /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-ppp0 ]  ifup ppp0


I haven't had a chance to look at the rpm yet, but my beef with the
original one was that it didn't 'wget -c', so if one download timed out,
it would overwrite them all and start again if you reran it.

Also, could one now put the actual cab's in contrib as they are? Or on
the CDs? Or in PLF. AFAIK this should be legal. As long as the cab's are
in the same place as the RPM, one could use 'urpmq --sources' to locate
them ...

Buchan


- --
|Registered Linux User #182071-|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
GPG Key   http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc
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Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 10:49:47AM +0100, Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:
 You always assume people have a DSL connection 
 Most computers still have a simple RTC modem and in that case, you'll need to 
 set up the connection, transferring, assuming everything is going fine.
 
 I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0 ... (of 
 course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a kppp root 
 connection !)

No I didn't assume that.  The documentation on the web page and in the
bootstrap RPMS description tells you that you need an internet
connection at install time.  And the web page refrences that a dialup
user may have a long download.

If you're doing urpmi for contrib most people are going to be
using a network source and will have a internet connection.

Finally, I didn't choose to do it this way.  I *HAD* to do it this way
to comply with Microsoft's licensing.  

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:18:59PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
 [ -e /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-ppp0 ]  ifup ppp0

I'm not sure this is a good idea however...

 I haven't had a chance to look at the rpm yet, but my beef with the
 original one was that it didn't 'wget -c', so if one download timed out,
 it would overwrite them all and start again if you reran it.

I didn't do wget -c... But I could certainly update it to do this.  One
would have thought as many times as I ran and sat and waited for this
thing that I would have thought to do that.

 Also, could one now put the actual cab's in contrib as they are? Or on
 the CDs? Or in PLF. AFAIK this should be legal. As long as the cab's are
 in the same place as the RPM, one could use 'urpmq --sources' to locate
 them ...

This would be legal yes.  And it would be a small change to support
something like this.  But I really don't desire to host gobs of font
file downloads from my own site (the URLS it uses just redirect to other
sites).  So I didn't try to do anything like that... Yet.  

Given co-operation from Mandrake, there's no reason why it couldn't be
improved to do that.

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Buchan Milne

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ben Reser wrote:
 On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:18:59PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:

[ -e /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-ppp0 ]  ifup ppp0


 I'm not sure this is a good idea however...

Just wanted to show it was possible ... don't think it should be
necessary ...


 I didn't do wget -c... But I could certainly update it to do this.  One
 would have thought as many times as I ran and sat and waited for this
 thing that I would have thought to do that.

It takes a bad, slow connection sometimes to kick the brain into gear ;-).



Also, could one now put the actual cab's in contrib as they are? Or on
the CDs? Or in PLF. AFAIK this should be legal. As long as the cab's are
in the same place as the RPM, one could use 'urpmq --sources' to locate
them ...


 This would be legal yes.  And it would be a small change to support
 something like this.  But I really don't desire to host gobs of font
 file downloads from my own site (the URLS it uses just redirect to other
 sites).  So I didn't try to do anything like that... Yet.

I had actually considered fixing the original and putting it into PLF,
but then we would have wanted to have the fonts on the PLF mirrors, so
that if you could install the rpm, you could get the fonts (ie in my
case, we have a local Mandrake mirror, but anything outside our net
requires the use of an interactive program to get access through the
firewall, and costs quite a bit charge per MB).


 Given co-operation from Mandrake, there's no reason why it couldn't be
 improved to do that.


Which would solve the problem above of either not having a network
connection, or one that is too slow ...

Buchan

- --
|Registered Linux User #182071-|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
GPG Key   http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc
1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
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uHmCzUX53bHEs4PBX2pp24M=
=hPfR
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Warly

Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Before anyone hits reply and says we can't do this read how it's done.

 Basically this is a bootstrap RPM that takes and sets up a build
 environment, builds a spec file that downloads the fonts (modified from
 the sourceforge one), installs the resulting RPM, and removes the build
 enviornment and the the resulting RPM.

 It complies with Microsoft's license because the fonts are being
 distributed as is without modification and are not included in the
 bootstrap RPM whatsoever.

 This makes it trivial for an end user to install these fonts.  They
 simply have to do urpmi msttcorefonts.

 The SRPM has been uploaded to incoming.

I do not know to what extend providing a way to do something that can
be illegal can be punished.

e.g. providing a computer, or linux, even wihtout illegal components
does not prevent you copying DVD or hacking army internal network.

However the difference lays in to what extend we make this easy.

IANAL but at some point I guess than there is no real difference in a
trial between providing microsof fonts, or providing a one click
feature to get them.

As a consequence, I do not favor putting it in contribs, however if
any have more clues about that, comments are welcome.

-- 
Warly

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread danny

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Warly wrote:
 
 I do not know to what extend providing a way to do something that can
 be illegal can be punished.
Yes, but distributing the fonts is not illegal. Read the licence.

d

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread David BAUDENS

On Wednesday 27 November 2002 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Warly wrote:
  I do not know to what extend providing a way to do something that
  can be illegal can be punished.

 Yes, but distributing the fonts is not illegal. Read the 

These fonts will not be integrated in Mandrake's distribution. Period.

This is our last answer about this topic.

-- 
David BAUDENS
MandrakeSoft - http://www.mandrakesoft.com

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Ron Stodden

Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:


I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0 ... (of 
course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a kppp root 
connection !)

Wot?   This is just not true.   I have never used kppp with anything 
but my own user name.  No problems in 9.0 or any of its predecessors.

--
Ron. [Melbourne, Australia]
   troels... now updated to use ftp.sunet.se server.
   See:  http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronst/

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Le Mercredi 27 Novembre 2002 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
 On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Warly wrote:
  I do not know to what extend providing a way to do something that can
  be illegal can be punished.

 Yes, but distributing the fonts is not illegal. Read the licence.

However, at the end, what is really a problem, is that we don't have good GPL 
fonts, or softwares to show them.

I think doing such a trick will be counter-productive.
And what about Microsoft's attitude if it suddenly move these files off ???

We need reliable, GPL products, so i think we'd better concentrate on GPL 
stuff instead of arguing.
I'm not yet developping, but on the verge of doing it (it's 8month now that 
i'm on cooker) after having done some stuff on betas.
I think we don't have enough man power to loose time into those directions 
(IMHO of course ...).

About the legal problems which are recurrent, doesn't Mandrake have a legal 
department, or a contract ? I'm always surprised to see the developpers 
involved so much in legal stuff.

Just some comments, no anger.

Stef

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Le Mercredi 27 Novembre 2002 12:33, vous avez écrit :
 Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:
  I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0 ...
  (of course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a
  kppp root connection !)

 Wot?   This is just not true.   I have never used kppp with anything
 but my own user name.  No problems in 9.0 or any of its predecessors.

OK, another time :
i installed at boot time the connection(my modem was autodetected) like i did 
for 8.0, 8.1, 8.2, and some betas.
I even add a new user thinking that my previous config files were causing 
some trouble. So everything was clean. I did an expert install, and installed 
most of the desktop and devel packages.

I tried with kppp and gnome-connect (the gnome equivalent, not really sure of 
the name), and if i use them as a normal user, the connection launches, and 
just after the connection up, i get 'pppd daemon did unexpectedly with error 
x', the error number is not always the same.
When i do it as root, no problem, the connection is perfectly stable.

I have may be forgotten to add some group for my user, but i don't think so 
as i tried different combinations with always the same result!

Stef

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Buchan Milne

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:
 Le Mercredi 27 Novembre 2002 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :

 I think doing such a trick will be counter-productive.
 And what about Microsoft's attitude if it suddenly move these files
off ???

They already did. The fonts are no longer available from MS, but someone
kept them, and they are available on sourceforge now
(http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/)

Ben streamlined the packaging, since it was broken for Mandrake, and
made it so you can install an rpm, instead of just rebuilding the rpm.

Ben, since it's apparently not going into contribs, do you want to have
it in PLF (or are you going to have Olivier add your source to urpmi.setup).

Buchan

- --
|Registered Linux User #182071-|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
GPG Key   http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc
1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=nR2i
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread danny

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, David BAUDENS wrote:
 
 These fonts will not be integrated in Mandrake's distribution. Period.
 
 This is our last answer about this topic.

Hey, no need to get rude. It is your distro not mine. If you do not want 
to improve it, what can I say?

But, ofcourse, your opinion is fine with me, because the fonts are not 
in the rpm anyway:)


Danny

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 09:18, John Allen wrote:

 Well I'm using Cooker with KDE 3.1, and Anti-Aliasing enabled with the 
 Luxi Sans [xft] font, and the desktop looks just magic. No Microsoft 
 fonts needed whatsoever. I think the latest Qt anti-aliasing is just 
 fantastic.

That's because it's not QT anti-aliasing. =). Cooker KDE has been
patched to use freetype2 through Xft2 and fontconfig, which will
hopefully become the default way of doing fonts, because it works a
treat. The microsoft fonts still look better, though. I'm partial to
Tahoma as a desktop font...
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 10:11, Owen Savill wrote:
 I agree. I find that as a laptop user the fonts look even better with 
 the rgba = rgb; lines commented back in in XftConfig.

Outdated. That's the Xft1 config file. Cooker no longer uses Xft1, but
Xft2/fontconfig. You can enabled subpixel hinting by editing
/etc/fonts/fonts.conf manually. You can also do it with GNOME2's new
fonts dialogue, I don't know if KDE's has an equivalent option yet.

 However TT fonts still look pretty rough in Mozilla and Opera, maybe 
 they do things there own way ?

*sigh* it'd really help if you'd read the archives, you know. To go over
this for the twentieth time, you need to edit the file
/usr/lib/mozilla-1.1/defaults/pref/unix.js . Set the truetype block
(line 228 or so) to read like this (assuming you have PLF freetype2, if
not you may find it works better with the first value set to true,
YMMV):

// if libfreetype was built without hinting compiled in
// it is best to leave hinting off
pref(font.FreeType2.autohinted, false);
pref(font.FreeType2.unhinted, false);

Et voila, nice Mozilla/Galeon fonts. I don't know about Opera.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread danny

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, [iso-8859-15] Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:

 
 However, at the end, what is really a problem, is that we don't have good GPL 
 fonts, or softwares to show them.
Both.

 

 I think doing such a trick will be counter-productive.
Nice opinion, no arguments?

 And what about Microsoft's attitude if it suddenly move these files off ???
Irrelevant, licence stays the same.

 We need reliable, GPL products, so i think we'd better concentrate on GPL 
 stuff instead of arguing.
Agreed, but I see no GPL fonts around.

Danny

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Le Mercredi 27 Novembre 2002 13:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
  I think doing such a trick will be counter-productive.

 Nice opinion, no arguments?

Time spent in the ML reading those stuff, time spent in building the rpm 
(although a really good idea, i don't disagree to this point) : my answer to 
this mail is just like a spam in this point of view ...


  And what about Microsoft's attitude if it suddenly move these files off
  ???
 Irrelevant, licence stays the same.

OK, but they can change the licence, or the future fonts could 


  We need reliable, GPL products, so i think we'd better concentrate on GPL
  stuff instead of arguing.

 Agreed, but I see no GPL fonts around.

?? In openooffice, the fonts are commercial ?

Stef

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Sorry, I should have said that I have made all the edits for Mozilla. My 
comment was really that even when this is done TT fonts still don't look 
as smooth as KDE's.

I found a freetype2 gz source file with the naughty bits in it so I 
installed that. I will try the PLF version in case it has some more / 
newer stuff in it.

Thanks,
Owen

Adam Williamson wrote:
 
On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 10:11, Owen Savill wrote:

I agree. I find that as a laptop user the fonts look even better with 
the rgba = rgb; lines commented back in in XftConfig.


Outdated. That's the Xft1 config file. Cooker no longer uses Xft1, but
Xft2/fontconfig. You can enabled subpixel hinting by editing
/etc/fonts/fonts.conf manually. You can also do it with GNOME2's new
fonts dialogue, I don't know if KDE's has an equivalent option yet.



However TT fonts still look pretty rough in Mozilla and Opera, maybe 
they do things there own way ?


*sigh* it'd really help if you'd read the archives, you know. To go over
this for the twentieth time, you need to edit the file
/usr/lib/mozilla-1.1/defaults/pref/unix.js . Set the truetype block
(line 228 or so) to read like this (assuming you have PLF freetype2, if
not you may find it works better with the first value set to true,
YMMV):

// if libfreetype was built without hinting compiled in
// it is best to leave hinting off
pref(font.FreeType2.autohinted, false);
pref(font.FreeType2.unhinted, false);

Et voila, nice Mozilla/Galeon fonts. I don't know about Opera.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 13:15, Owen Savill wrote:
 Sorry, I should have said that I have made all the edits for Mozilla. My 
 comment was really that even when this is done TT fonts still don't look 
 as smooth as KDE's.
 
 I found a freetype2 gz source file with the naughty bits in it so I 
 installed that. I will try the PLF version in case it has some more / 
 newer stuff in it.
 
 Thanks,
 Owen

The only difference between .mdk and .plf versions of freetype is that
the bytecode interpreter has been enabled in the .plf version. They use
the same .src.rpm; just grab it from a mandrake repository and rebuild
with 

--with plf

to get the PLF version. The official freetype2 source has all the
bytecode interpreter stuff included, it's just disabled by a single
#DEFINE in one of the files. There's details on the freetype webbie
about where to enable it when building from source. No need to do that,
though, just use the .plf RPM. The reason the rendering looks different
is that Moz interfaces directly with freetype2, it doesn't go via
Xft(2). I find they look pretty close, though. Anyway, I think Frederic
will be building Mozilla 1.2 with Xft2 support (it's in Moz now), so
it's all going to be outdated soon.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Guillaume Rousse

Le Mercredi 27 Novembre 2002 12:40, David BAUDENS a écrit :
 On Wednesday 27 November 2002 12:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Warly wrote:
   I do not know to what extend providing a way to do something that
   can be illegal can be punished.
 
  Yes, but distributing the fonts is not illegal. Read the

 These fonts will not be integrated in Mandrake's distribution. Period.

 This is our last answer about this topic.
Discussion with you is always a pleasure, David...
-- 
If a program actually fits in memory and has enough disk space, it is 
guaranteed to crash. 
-- Murphy's Computer Laws n°5

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Ron Stodden

Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:

Le Mercredi 27 Novembre 2002 12:33, vous avez écrit :


Stéphane Teletchéa wrote:


I remind everybody that kppp isn't working if you are not root in 9.0 ...
(of course when you use the rpm, you are, but i'm not sure i'll like a
kppp root connection !)


Wot?   This is just not true.   I have never used kppp with anything
but my own user name.  No problems in 9.0 or any of its predecessors.


OK, another time :
I tried with kppp and gnome-connect (the gnome equivalent, not really sure of 
the name), and if i use them as a normal user, the connection launches, and 
just after the connection up, i get 'pppd daemon did unexpectedly with error 
x', the error number is not always the same.
When i do it as root, no problem, the connection is perfectly stable.

Then the ISP is expecting one log-on protocol and you are giving 
another.   In your user kppp, setup. dial tab, did you specify 
script-based, PAP, terminal-based, CHAP, or PAP/CHAP?   PAP works for me 
and my ISP.

--
Ron. [Melbourne, Australia]
   troels... now updated to use ftp.sunet.se server.
   See:  http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronst/

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

Thanks for that.

Owen

Adam Williamson wrote:

 
On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 13:15, Owen Savill wrote:

Sorry, I should have said that I have made all the edits for Mozilla. My 
comment was really that even when this is done TT fonts still don't look 
as smooth as KDE's.

I found a freetype2 gz source file with the naughty bits in it so I 
installed that. I will try the PLF version in case it has some more / 
newer stuff in it.

Thanks,
Owen


The only difference between .mdk and .plf versions of freetype is that
the bytecode interpreter has been enabled in the .plf version. They use
the same .src.rpm; just grab it from a mandrake repository and rebuild
with 

--with plf

to get the PLF version. The official freetype2 source has all the
bytecode interpreter stuff included, it's just disabled by a single
#DEFINE in one of the files. There's details on the freetype webbie
about where to enable it when building from source. No need to do that,
though, just use the .plf RPM. The reason the rendering looks different
is that Moz interfaces directly with freetype2, it doesn't go via
Xft(2). I find they look pretty close, though. Anyway, I think Frederic
will be building Mozilla 1.2 with Xft2 support (it's in Moz now), so
it's all going to be outdated soon.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Leon Brooks

On Wednesday 27 November 2002 05:18 pm, John Allen wrote:
 I'm using Cooker with KDE 3.1, and Anti-Aliasing enabled with the
 Luxi Sans [xft] font, and the desktop looks just magic. No Microsoft
 fonts needed whatsoever. I think the latest Qt anti-aliasing is just
 fantastic.

So _with_ the fonts as well, does the desktop look even spiffier, or does it 
become in some way overdone?

I've been having reasonably good luck with drakfont RUN FROM THE COMMAND LINE 
and a whole batch of cheap, grotty, freeware fonts. They print nicely and 
all. The one fly in the ointment is some fonts break the font-directory 
makers in various ways. A bit more checking is needed as I would rather be 
short a font or few than have the whole show stop for a broken one.

Cheers; Leon

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Austin Acton

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 06:15, Warly wrote:
 IANAL but at some point I guess than there is no real difference in a
 trial between providing microsof fonts, or providing a one click
 feature to get them.
 
 As a consequence, I do not favor putting it in contribs, however if
 any have more clues about that, comments are welcome.

Why can't we have a resident lawyer on this list?
Is there not a single lawyer in the world who is also a mandrake
enthusiast?
Austin

-- 
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
 Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
   Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
 MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
 homepage: www.groundstate.ca

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 15:11, Austin Acton wrote:
 On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 06:15, Warly wrote:
  IANAL but at some point I guess than there is no real difference in a
  trial between providing microsof fonts, or providing a one click
  feature to get them.
  
  As a consequence, I do not favor putting it in contribs, however if
  any have more clues about that, comments are welcome.
 
 Why can't we have a resident lawyer on this list?
 Is there not a single lawyer in the world who is also a mandrake
 enthusiast?
 Austin

There clearly is a difference. Sure, there isn't in terms of common
sense, but then the law has never worked on the grounds of common sense
(which is why it's fine to distribute the LAME source code, but not a
compiled version...) There's absolutely nothing illegal about a wrapper
script that downloads and unpackages an unmodified version of the
Microsoft .cab file containing the Microsoft web fonts. Period. It's
that simple. If that wrapper script happens to be in the form of an
urpmi-compatible source RPM, it makes no difference. It's still just a
script, it contains nothing at all over which Microsoft has any legal
right, it's completely unimpeachable. As would be placing an unmodified
copy of the .cab file on a Mandrakesoft or PLF server. I'm not a lawyer,
but I'm sure I'm right. :)
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 15:20, Adam Williamson wrote:
 On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 15:11, Austin Acton wrote:
  On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 06:15, Warly wrote:
   IANAL but at some point I guess than there is no real difference in a
   trial between providing microsof fonts, or providing a one click
   feature to get them.
   
   As a consequence, I do not favor putting it in contribs, however if
   any have more clues about that, comments are welcome.
  
  Why can't we have a resident lawyer on this list?
  Is there not a single lawyer in the world who is also a mandrake
  enthusiast?
  Austin
 
 There clearly is a difference. Sure, there isn't in terms of common
 sense, but then the law has never worked on the grounds of common sense
 (which is why it's fine to distribute the LAME source code, but not a
 compiled version...) There's absolutely nothing illegal about a wrapper
 script that downloads and unpackages an unmodified version of the
 Microsoft .cab file containing the Microsoft web fonts. Period. It's
 that simple. If that wrapper script happens to be in the form of an
 urpmi-compatible source RPM, it makes no difference. It's still just a
 script, it contains nothing at all over which Microsoft has any legal
 right, it's completely unimpeachable. As would be placing an unmodified
 copy of the .cab file on a Mandrakesoft or PLF server. I'm not a lawyer,
 but I'm sure I'm right. :)

Sorry, clarification - the fonts come as individual .exe files. It's
quite clear from the EULA that accompanied them that it's perfectly
legal to put those files on any freely-downloadable source, accompanied
by the EULA and unmodified. It's also clear that it *wouldn't* be legal
to actually include the *font files themselves* in the actual Mandrake
distribution, which is I think why David is so adamant.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Rolf Pedersen

Adam Williamson wrote:

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 15:11, Austin Acton wrote:


On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 06:15, Warly wrote:


IANAL but at some point I guess than there is no real difference in a
trial between providing microsof fonts, or providing a one click
feature to get them.

As a consequence, I do not favor putting it in contribs, however if
any have more clues about that, comments are welcome.


Why can't we have a resident lawyer on this list?
Is there not a single lawyer in the world who is also a mandrake
enthusiast?
Austin



There clearly is a difference. Sure, there isn't in terms of common
sense, but then the law has never worked on the grounds of common sense
(which is why it's fine to distribute the LAME source code, but not a
compiled version...) There's absolutely nothing illegal about a wrapper
script that downloads and unpackages an unmodified version of the
Microsoft .cab file containing the Microsoft web fonts. Period. It's
that simple. If that wrapper script happens to be in the form of an
urpmi-compatible source RPM, it makes no difference. It's still just a
script, it contains nothing at all over which Microsoft has any legal
right, it's completely unimpeachable. As would be placing an unmodified
copy of the .cab file on a Mandrakesoft or PLF server. I'm not a lawyer,
but I'm sure I'm right. :)


Bitter experience suggests that the efficacy of a lawyer is not so much 
determined by his or her command of a body of legal knowledge and 
precedent but moreso by his or her proclivity to glibly and agressively 
lie without compunction.  There is no way to guarantee the outcome in a 
court, especially when you are dealing with those who have demonstrated 
their willingness and ability to influence the legislative and judicial 
processes with vast resources.  Firm beliefs, even convictions, in what 
is right and what is wrong wield (perhaps increasingly) little infuence 
in a court of 'law'.

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Austin Acton

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 10:20, Adam Williamson wrote:
 urpmi-compatible source RPM, it makes no difference. It's still just a
 script, it contains nothing at all over which Microsoft has any legal
 right, it's completely unimpeachable. As would be placing an unmodified
 copy of the .cab file on a Mandrakesoft or PLF server. I'm not a lawyer,
 but I'm sure I'm right. :)

I wish I could agree.  Fact is:
1.  although the wording may look clear, EVERY law is open to
interpretation
2.  nobody can predict the outcome of a law suit
3.  law regarding wrappers vs. cab files vs. font files vs. exe files
vs. point-and-click are not well defined, so I can see Mandrake's fear
of a point-and-click system which toys with ANY MS material
4.  MS vs. anyone sounds a bit like OJ Simpson vs. anyone: lotsa money
and lotsa lawyers can bend the rules is strange and unpredictable ways

Austin

-- 
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
 Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
   Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
 MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
 homepage: www.groundstate.ca

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Todd Lyons

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ben Reser wrote on Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:33:09AM -0800 :
 
 It complies with Microsoft's license because the fonts are being
 distributed as is without modification and are not included in the
 bootstrap RPM whatsoever.
 This makes it trivial for an end user to install these fonts.  They
 simply have to do urpmi msttcorefonts.

I have tested this and it works well.  Please look at the url below,
grab the rpm, and test it.  You will like the results and you will want
to put this rpm in Contribs.

 URL : http://ben.reser.org/corefonts/

Blue skies...   Todd
- -- 
  Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc.   http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because 
  that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn
   Cooker Version mandrake-release-9.1-0.1mdk Kernel 2.4.20-0.4mdk
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

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llCd59Q2LjYCd9f86Y3DSss=
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Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Todd Lyons

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

St?phane Teletch?a wrote on Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:54:51PM +0100 :
 OK, another time :
 
 I tried with kppp and gnome-connect (the gnome equivalent, not really sure of 
 the name), and if i use them as a normal user, the connection launches, and 
 just after the connection up, i get 'pppd daemon did unexpectedly with error 
 x', the error number is not always the same.
 When i do it as root, no problem, the connection is perfectly stable.

Is your regular user in the tty group?  Are you using devfs?  If no,
what are the ownership and permissions of the /dev/ttyS* device nodes?
Are you launching it from the commandline or from the menus?  Is your
kppp suid?

Blue skies...   Todd
- -- 
  Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc.   http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because 
  that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn
   Cooker Version mandrake-release-9.1-0.1mdk Kernel 2.4.20-0.4mdk
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)

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k3bPAknEkoUmxvA4+um1jKk=
=VGVS
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Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Danny Tholen

On Wednesday 27 November 2002 19:03, Todd Lyons wrote:
 I have tested this and it works well.  Please look at the url below,
 grab the rpm, and test it.  You will like the results and you will want
 to put this rpm in Contribs.

Interesting, so now we have 1 mandrake employee in favour of it (Todd) one 
(with an attitude) against (David), and one in doubt (Warly).

(couldn't resist)
Danny

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread laurent Montel

On Wednesday 27 November 2002 21:56, Danny Tholen wrote:
 On Wednesday 27 November 2002 19:03, Todd Lyons wrote:
  I have tested this and it works well.  Please look at the url below,
  grab the rpm, and test it.  You will like the results and you will want
  to put this rpm in Contribs.

 Interesting, so now we have 1 mandrake employee in favour of it (Todd) one
 (with an attitude) against (David), and one in doubt (Warly).

It's not a attitude, we are against, and it's finished.
Discution is closed, you can continue to speak, if you want, but we will not 
re-add these font in MDK.




 (couldn't resist)
 Danny

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 10:33:11PM +0100, laurent Montel wrote:
 It's not a attitude, we are against, and it's finished.
 Discution is closed, you can continue to speak, if you want, but we will not 
 re-add these font in MDK.

Laurent,

Please clarify when were these fonts ever included in the distribution
at all?  

Second the fonts are part of the package anyway.  It's just a bootstrap
RPM that downloads and installs them for you.  So I think there is a
huge difference here.

Third there is an awful lot of attitude going on here.  David and now
you apparently are being rather confrontational about this rather just
simply explaining your position and the rationale behind it.  

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:24:08PM -0800, Ben Reser wrote:
 Second the fonts are part of the package anyway.  It's just a bootstrap
 RPM that downloads and installs them for you.  So I think there is a
 huge difference here.

That should be Second the fonts aren't...

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:15:59PM +0100, Warly wrote:
 I do not know to what extend providing a way to do something that can
 be illegal can be punished.
 
 e.g. providing a computer, or linux, even wihtout illegal components
 does not prevent you copying DVD or hacking army internal network.
 
 However the difference lays in to what extend we make this easy.
 
 IANAL but at some point I guess than there is no real difference in a
 trial between providing microsof fonts, or providing a one click
 feature to get them.
 
 As a consequence, I do not favor putting it in contribs, however if
 any have more clues about that, comments are welcome.

Sure I'd be happy to elaborate further on the legal situation with
regards to this.  

It is important to note a couple of facts before I go into my analysis.
Remember this section is not analysis just the facts.

* It *IS* legal to distribute these fonts provided that each copy is a
true and complete copy, including all copyright and trademark notices,
and shall be accompanied by a copy of this EULA.  And additionally that
it is done on a not-for-profit basis.  You can take a look at the EULA
that applies to these fonts (with the exception of the Tahoma font which
is different and not included in the RPM by default due to these
licensing differences) here: http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/eula.htm
There is also an FAQ related to the license that was on Microsoft's home
page previously that clarifies their position on distribution in plain
english: http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/faq8.htm

* Microsoft has removed the fonts from their site on October 25th, 2002.
This however does not change their license agreement that allows
distribution.

* The sourceforge SRPM project has been up on sourceforge since August
22nd 2001.  

* The SRPM hosted at sourceforge has gained a significant amount of
press, especially after Microsoft removed the fonts from their site.

Now onto some analysis of the situation:

First off I would not have done this if I thought in anyway it was
illegal.  It is indeed walking the fine line of their licensing
agreement.  However, I believe it is walking inside the line.  I live in
the Seattle area.  It would be trivial for Microsoft to bring action
against me.  So I have every reason to be very careful about what I do
here.

Second, The sourceforge project has been there long enough to gain their
attention, and has gained enough press attention to attract their
attention.  A simple DMCA notification claiming a copyright violation
would be the end of the fonts (right or wrong).  It would be unlikely
anyone would fight them on this.  The fonts would simply move
underground.

Third,  I seriously doubt that Microsoft cares if we are using these
fonts.  They put them up in archives readable to Macintosh computers and
Windows computers.  They provided a license agreement that is likely as
free as their lawyers have ever done.  Fact is they wanted these fonts
to be established as an Internet standard and distributed to the masses.

I seriously doubt that the removal of the fonts from their website had
anything to do with Linux.  The two core platforms Microsoft cares about
are Windows and the Macintosh.  Internet Explorer is the predominant
browser on both of these platforms, which the fonts now come with.
Additionally, IE is preinstalled on virtually all Windows and Macintosh
computers now, with these fonts.  There was no reason to continue to
distribute the fonts, users already have them if they had a modern
system.

Fourth, Their license agreement allows installation and use of an
unlimited number of copies.  It does not specify use on what operating
system.  It does not specify what software or procedures you must follow
to install.  Essentially all I have done is made an easy to use
installer to do so on Linux (in particular Mandrake).

Mandrake currently ships several things that walk the fine line of
licensing.  Perfect example of this is the mp3 decoders included in the
distribution.  It is unclear if Mandrake should have to pay royalties on
every CD it ships (though I think free downloads it is clear that they
would not).  Yet, mp3 decoders are shipped in main.

And yet in this case we aren't even talking about main.  We are talking
about contrib.  Which for most packages means it would never get
included on a CD.  IMHO this makes the legal position on this far
better off than the legal position on a bunch of other stuff you ship.

If you decide you'd rather not include it that's fine.  But show us the
courtesy of considering it and explaining your rationale for not placing
the package in contribs in light of the facts.

-- 
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.reser.org

If you're not making any mistakes, you're flat out not trying hard
enough. - Jim Nichols

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

2002-11-27 Thread Michael Scherer


 Mandrake currently ships several things that walk the fine line of
 licensing.  Perfect example of this is the mp3 decoders included in the
 distribution.  It is unclear if Mandrake should have to pay royalties on
 every CD it ships (though I think free downloads it is clear that they
 would not).  Yet, mp3 decoders are shipped in main.
It may seems unclear, but you look at 
http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/index.html, you see you must pay 0.75 $ per 
unit, for a decoder.
The links was given by the website of the Fraunhofer institute.

You can see they have patents in a lot of country, including Germany, 
Danemark, USA and France. 

Of course, Mandrake should not pay, as they are not the developer, but, i 
don't think that the authors of zinf, and xmms have paid...
If these software are illegal, is it safe to keep them in main ?

Mick

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...

On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 21:33, laurent Montel wrote:
 On Wednesday 27 November 2002 21:56, Danny Tholen wrote:
  On Wednesday 27 November 2002 19:03, Todd Lyons wrote:
   I have tested this and it works well.  Please look at the url below,
   grab the rpm, and test it.  You will like the results and you will want
   to put this rpm in Contribs.
 
  Interesting, so now we have 1 mandrake employee in favour of it (Todd) one
  (with an attitude) against (David), and one in doubt (Warly).
 
 It's not a attitude, we are against, and it's finished.
 Discution is closed, you can continue to speak, if you want, but we will not 
 re-add these font in MDK.

*sigh*

At least look at what Ben's package does.

To say it again:

NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO PUT THE MICROSOFT CORE FONTS IN MANDRAKE.

Is that clear enough? Do you want it up in lights somewhere?

Ben wants his WRAPPER SCRIPT THAT DOWNLOADS AND INSTALLS THE MICROSOFT
CORE FONTS in Mandrake.

This is a different thing entirely.
-- 
adamw

Re: [Cooker] Microsoft True Type Fonts for Contrib...