Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Thu, 2002-08-22 at 06:27, Richard G. Houser wrote: Also, I've yet to check where the defaults in cooker are presently, but last I could recall not all of the shipped mail clients were defaulting to the same mail directories (I had to change the pinerc in 8.2 to sync up with some other clients defaulting to ~/Mail instead of ~/mail -- not sure, but think it was kmail). Evolution does its own thing, too - all my Evolution mail ends up in ~/evolution/mail/ . Not as it happens a problem for me, but for people wanting interchangable email clients I expect it would be. Actually, does Evo even store its mail in a format other programs understand? Don't think i've read a definitive answer to this yet... -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 02:12:50PM +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: At least spamassassin-postfix-N.N-i586.rpm then? There are several ways to implement it... And you can't do any of them directly through postfix. It has to be done with procmail. Messing around with the system procmail recipies just doesn't seem like a good idea. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
Think like a user, Luke. My sister would like to replace windows with linux on her machine. She gets a lot of spam, and is certainly not competent to set up a spam filter on her own. It would be nice if Mandrake was able to take care of it for her (and all the other non-hacker users in the world). Rich Ben Reser said: On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 01:10:05PM -0400, Richard Tango-Lowy wrote: I think I saw something similar pass through this list recently, but with the increasing amount of spam out there, it would a usability coup to include spam filtering (spamassassin, or something similar) out of the box. Too many mail clients, mail servers, and configuration possibilities to do it out of the box. ars Cognita The Art of Knowledge - Richard Tango-Lowy [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603 424-6555
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, 2002-08-21 at 22:39, Richard Tango-Lowy wrote: Think like a user, Luke. My sister would like to replace windows with linux on her machine. She gets a lot of spam, and is certainly not competent to set up a spam filter on her own. It would be nice if Mandrake was able to take care of it for her (and all the other non-hacker users in the world). With all respect, newbie users aren't likely to be using sendmail, procmail and mutt/pine. They're going to be using KMail, or Evolution, and checking their mail directly through these programs. That doesn't leave much space for a Mandrake-created spam filter, though you could provide them with pre-written spam-filtering rules in their own filtering setups. I don't personally think this would be a good idea, though. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:58:50PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: With all respect, newbie users aren't likely to be using sendmail, procmail and mutt/pine. They're going to be using KMail, or Evolution, and checking their mail directly through these programs. That doesn't leave much space for a Mandrake-created spam filter, though you could provide them with pre-written spam-filtering rules in their own filtering setups. I don't personally think this would be a good idea, though. An excellent point. As it stands now the only way to run spamassasin is through procmail (well okay Mail::Audit too but nobody really uses that [/me puts on flame retardent pants here]). But if you're using Kmail and checking directly via POP or IMAP you can't use procmail so it won't work. Which comes back to my statement that it's impossible to do because there are too many different client/server configuration possibilities. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 05:39:57PM -0400, Richard Tango-Lowy wrote: Think like a user, Luke. My sister would like to replace windows with linux on her machine. She gets a lot of spam, and is certainly not competent to set up a spam filter on her own. It would be nice if Mandrake was able to take care of it for her (and all the other non-hacker users in the world). Tell the email clients and the mail servers to put hooks in for using tools like spamassassin. As it stands now it's not designed to be used by the average end user. All that could/would change if email clients (in particular) and mail servers included hooks for spamassassin and it's brethren. But they don't. Which leaves us with using procmail. And parsing and adding procmail rules for someone is pretty much impossible to do in a way that is reliable. So don't ask Mandrake to fix this. Ask your favorite mail client/server author to add support for it. Simply making their client/server capable of internally sending messages to spamd would be more than sufficient to make this possible. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wednesday 21 August 2002 06:54 pm, Ben Reser wrote: Tell the email clients and the mail servers to put hooks in for using tools like spamassassin. As it stands now it's not designed to be used by the average end user. All that could/would change if email clients (in particular) and mail servers included hooks for spamassassin and it's brethren. But they don't. Which leaves us with using procmail. And parsing and adding procmail rules for someone is pretty much impossible to do in a way that is reliable. So don't ask Mandrake to fix this. Ask your favorite mail client/server author to add support for it. Simply making their client/server capable of internally sending messages to spamd would be more than sufficient to make this possible. Besides, what happens if the spam filter catches a non-spam email? You can never trust those systems, because they are pretty stupid. Only sufficiently advanced users should be using them, and only when they know the consequences. The best solution to the spam problem is to not stick your email into every form out there (or to have a junk email addy on hotmail or something). Trying to filter spam with stupid keyword-based tools (spamassassin) is dangerous, and making it a default is insane. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:58:50PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: With all respect, newbie users aren't likely to be using sendmail, procmail and mutt/pine. They're going to be using KMail, or Evolution, and checking their mail directly through these programs. That doesn't leave much space for a Mandrake-created spam filter, though you could provide them with pre-written spam-filtering rules in their own filtering setups. I don't personally think this would be a good idea, though. An excellent point. As it stands now the only way to run spamassasin is through procmail (well okay Mail::Audit too but nobody really uses that [/me puts on flame retardent pants here]). But if you're using Kmail and checking directly via POP or IMAP you can't use procmail so it won't work. Which comes back to my statement that it's impossible to do But KMail can use spamassassin directly, or so I remember reading somewhere...probably spamassassin's site itself. Vox -- Pain is the gift of the gods, and I'm the one they chose as their messenger For info on safety in the BDSM lifestyle http://www.the-vox.com Think of the Linux community as a niche economy isolated by its beliefs. Kind of like the Amish, except that our religion requires us to use _higher_ technology than everyone else. -- Donald B. Marti Jr.
Actually... Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wednesday 21 August 2002 07:56 pm, Ben Reser wrote: An excellent point. As it stands now the only way to run spamassasin is through procmail (well okay Mail::Audit too but nobody really uses that [/me puts on flame retardent pants here]). But if you're using Kmail and checking directly via POP or IMAP you can't use procmail so it won't work. Which comes back to my statement that it's impossible to do because there are too many different client/server configuration possibilities. Uh, it's not really impossible. ( ...borrows fireproof pants ) http://www.prismnet.com/~aef/index2.html ( I mention this one only because of applicability to a stand-alone system based on Mandrake with Netfilter and libipq. ) http://hogwash.sourceforge.net I'm not actually trying to promote these things for this purpose at this time, I am just saying that this issue is really not impossible. Not kidding. Not enough time and developer bandwidth or it would be more than possible already for this purpose. FYI -AEF
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wednesday 21 August 2002 08:15 pm, Igor Izyumin wrote: Besides, what happens if the spam filter catches a non-spam email? You can never trust those systems, because they are pretty stupid. Only sufficiently advanced users should be using them, and only when they know the consequences. The best solution to the spam problem is to not stick your email into every form out there (or to have a junk email addy on hotmail or something). Trying to filter spam with stupid keyword-based tools (spamassassin) is dangerous, and making it a default is insane. The obvious solution if the goal is to provide something out of the box that works with one or more mail clients is to dump such mail into a spam folder of the particular user. That way it is not zapped, and yet easily zapped. The point is, the mail came to the machine in order to hit spamassassin or anything else. It was not blocked before reaching the machine. Therefore... many possibilities... -AEF
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed Aug 21 19:15 -0500, Igor Izyumin wrote: Besides, what happens if the spam filter catches a non-spam email? You can never trust those systems, because they are pretty stupid. Only sufficiently advanced users should be using them, and only when they know the consequences. The best solution to the spam problem is to not stick your email into every form out there (or to have a junk email addy on hotmail or something). Trying to filter spam with stupid keyword-based tools (spamassassin) is dangerous, and making it a default is insane. Only the truly insane spamassassin user would auto-delete spamassassin tagged emails. Personally, I just route spam-tagged mail into a separate folder and manually delete spam from there. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Was it something I said? And the stars look down. Linux 2.4.19-2mdk 8:30pm up 1 day, 5:22, 8 users, load average: 0.45, 0.40, 0.31
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 07:15:51PM -0500, Igor Izyumin wrote: Besides, what happens if the spam filter catches a non-spam email? You can never trust those systems, because they are pretty stupid. Only sufficiently advanced users should be using them, and only when they know the consequences. The best solution to the spam problem is to not stick your email into every form out there (or to have a junk email addy on hotmail or something). Trying to filter spam with stupid keyword-based tools (spamassassin) is dangerous, and making it a default is insane. spamassassin isn't keyword based it's score based. Putting penis enlargement in this email isn't going to cause everyone's spam assassin to score my email as spam. And spam assassin just tags email as suspected spam what you do with it is completely up to you... -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 07:20:30PM -0400, allen wrote: The obvious solution if the goal is to provide something out of the box that works with one or more mail clients is to dump such mail into a spam folder of the particular user. Which means POP users will never see it because POP doesn't support folders. Once again there is no solution that works right in all insallations and configurations. Try again. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: Actually... Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 07:15:37PM -0400, allen wrote: Uh, it's not really impossible. ( ...borrows fireproof pants ) http://www.prismnet.com/~aef/index2.html ( I mention this one only because of applicability to a stand-alone system based on Mandrake with Netfilter and libipq. ) http://hogwash.sourceforge.net I'm not actually trying to promote these things for this purpose at this time, I am just saying that this issue is really not impossible. Not kidding. Not enough time and developer bandwidth or it would be more than possible already for this purpose. First of all your examples are all things that manipulate iptables rules and require a lot of setup to make work on the users perspective. Comparing that to something that is going to (without an user intervention) modify procmail rules and not cause an interaction (and procmail is rife with interactiosn) is silly. But that's beside the point. It's a waste of Mandrake's time because the *correct* way of implementing this is providing hooks in the client and the server. This will probably happen sooner or later and Mandrake would spend a lot of time and energy implementing something that: a) would break for a lot of people and b) will become obsolete when the clients do implement the hooks. So it's just not worth the time. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wednesday 21 August 2002 09:13 pm, Ben Reser wrote: On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 07:15:51PM -0500, Igor Izyumin wrote: Besides, what happens if the spam filter catches a non-spam email? You can never trust those systems, because they are pretty stupid. Only sufficiently advanced users should be using them, and only when they know the consequences. The best solution to the spam problem is to not stick your email into every form out there (or to have a junk email addy on hotmail or something). Trying to filter spam with stupid keyword-based tools (spamassassin) is dangerous, and making it a default is insane. spamassassin isn't keyword based it's score based. Putting penis enlargement in this email isn't going to cause everyone's spam assassin to score my email as spam. And spam assassin just tags email as suspected spam what you do with it is completely up to you... Well, yes, but it does rely on keywords and headers to score the email. Sometimes, even a wrong header combination will cause it to trigger. It doesn't know the context of the email message (you'd need AI for that), yet it scores email based solely on its content (unlike razor-type tools which compare a message against a database). My point wasn't that it sucks, just that it is far from foolproof, does have false positives, and doesn't have a reasonable default configuration. If it is incorporated into Mandrake as an easily enabled option, you would probably have to provide a configuration drake for it. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 07:11:34PM -0500, Vox wrote: But KMail can use spamassassin directly, or so I remember reading somewhere...probably spamassassin's site itself. Indeed you're right. With a little bit of setup: http://kmail.kde.org/tools.html Wonder if there's a way to make Kmail use spamassasin if it's installed automatically. What I'm talking about is more like a checkbox that says: [ ] Filter mail through spamassassin if available Then Mandrake can just ship it with it on... -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ben Reser wrote: | On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 07:20:30PM -0400, allen wrote: | |The obvious solution if the goal is to provide something out of the box |that works with one or more mail clients is to dump such mail into |a spam folder of the particular user. | | | Which means POP users will never see it because POP doesn't support | folders. Once again there is no solution that works right in all | insallations and configurations. Try again. | POP may not support folders, but the local machine would most certainly do so. As a mail client is on the downstream end, POP shouldn't be a concern. I do think it might be worthwhile to include a most basic fetchmail configuration GUI and an extremely basic procmail filter tool (similar to a simple match version of what mozilla-mail supports). Also, I've yet to check where the defaults in cooker are presently, but last I could recall not all of the shipped mail clients were defaulting to the same mail directories (I had to change the pinerc in 8.2 to sync up with some other clients defaulting to ~/Mail instead of ~/mail -- not sure, but think it was kmail). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAj1kdjAACgkQUMkt1ZRwL1Ol9wCfZLzg7yIe4/30JRDZBgVR/lnl dKEAoIydoqybZwVEkFdJgedJXxYMvWe9 =g836 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:27:12AM -0400, Richard G. Houser wrote: POP may not support folders, but the local machine would most certainly do so. As a mail client is on the downstream end, POP shouldn't be a concern. I do think it might be worthwhile to include a most basic fetchmail configuration GUI and an extremely basic procmail filter tool (similar to a simple match version of what mozilla-mail supports). Also, I've yet to check where the defaults in cooker are presently, but last I could recall not all of the shipped mail clients were defaulting to the same mail directories (I had to change the pinerc in 8.2 to sync up with some other clients defaulting to ~/Mail instead of ~/mail -- not sure, but think it was kmail). Fact is that most users don't get their email that way. And most clients (apparently kmail does) doesn't support filtering stuff though extrnal programs. Most of the graphical (read that newbie friendly) clients check directly via POP or IMAP. Most users don't know how to setup fetchmail, procmail, et al. My mail has a rather convulted setup that makes it end up on the local mail folders. But the fact is that most newbies just don't understand such things. They just want to pop their mailservers into the client and go... Finally, I don't know about you but most of my users don't use Linux to read thier emails. And almost none of them have access to the server any other way than POP. Automatically putting things in folders is a bad idea because you don't know if the local machine is the final destination or if the user picks it up to read by POP. There is no way to know that for sure... It comes down to this. At install time there is too little information to know what is going to happen with the email on the server. And even then not all users may do the same thing with it. In the end to get anything to achieve what the request is you'll have to make many assumptions about what the machine is used for. Considering that Mandrake doesn't attempt to have a Server install or a Desktop install there's really no way to know. And even then some people read their email on servers with clients like mutt or pine. And others download with POP. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 09:37:50PM -0500, Igor Izyumin wrote: Well, yes, but it does rely on keywords and headers to score the email. Sometimes, even a wrong header combination will cause it to trigger. It doesn't know the context of the email message (you'd need AI for that), yet it scores email based solely on its content (unlike razor-type tools which compare a message against a database). Yeah but spamassassin uses every piece of information about the message it can to come up with a score. Some of that is content based. It can even use Razor to get some of that score. Plus with autowhitelisting spamassassin gets better and better about false positives. I can't remember the last time it grabed an email that I really wanted and put it in the spam folder. Fact is I rarely even looka the spam folder. My point wasn't that it sucks, just that it is far from foolproof, does have false positives, and doesn't have a reasonable default configuration. If it is incorporated into Mandrake as an easily enabled option, you would probably have to provide a configuration drake for it. Well I don't really think it has a bad default config. I've made very few alterations to mine. A few blacklist and whitelist entries where I disagree with it about what is spam. And a couple extra rulesets. But for the most part it's the default config. Now most of my users are using the default config. And I rarely get complaints about it. I've been running spamassassin for a while now for all my users. So I think I have enough experience to make these statements. But a drake type tool or hell any tool to help users config spamassassin woudl be a good thing... -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: Actually... Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:13:04PM -0400, allen wrote: Conceptually I'd need just one rule iptables -A input -j QUEUE Plus the rpm -ivh of a hogwash-iptables.rpm or rather by such an rpm. Yes but a real person needs to be there to insert such a rule in the right place. If you put it in the wrong place in the chain it could have drastic results. There is no program that automatically installs the hogwash rule into iptables for you... The context of the rule is very important especially in procmail and iptables. In order to decern the context you'd need an AI. Which you aren't going to get from an rpm package produced by Mandrake. If there's a market, your bank account would argue with you. But then, I'm not even suggesting that there might be thousands or even millions of people and businesses of all sizes with a spam problem... And enterprises have system admins who can take the 20 minutes to install and configure spamassassin. They don't leave such things to end users to setup. And that's ultimately what the request is trying to take care of. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 01:10:05PM -0400, Richard Tango-Lowy wrote: I think I saw something similar pass through this list recently, but with the increasing amount of spam out there, it would a usability coup to include spam filtering (spamassassin, or something similar) out of the box. Too many mail clients, mail servers, and configuration possibilities to do it out of the box. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:05, Ben Reser wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 01:10:05PM -0400, Richard Tango-Lowy wrote: I think I saw something similar pass through this list recently, but with the increasing amount of spam out there, it would a usability coup to include spam filtering (spamassassin, or something similar) out of the box. Too many mail clients, mail servers, and configuration possibilities to do it out of the box. At least spamassassin-postfix-N.N-i586.rpm then? Cheers; Leon
[Cooker] Wishlist: spam filtering
I think I saw something similar pass through this list recently, but with the increasing amount of spam out there, it would a usability coup to include spam filtering (spamassassin, or something similar) out of the box. Rich -- ars Cognita Richard Tango-Lowy - President [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603 424-0713 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
